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The Bible And The Qur'an, Brothers Kept Apart

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brotherskeptapartFellow blogger Weighed in the Balance has undertaken the ambitious and highly risky task of writing a book which as he terms it “is a comparative analysis of the Bible and the Qur’an, and it assumes that both books are correct.  If God is the principal author of each book, as Christians and Muslims claim, then a comparative analysis should reveal harmony between the principal teachings of both.  This is what I have found.  Hence, Christians and Muslims have been kept apart by their religious leaders who have taught their adherents that God has rejected the other group.” The topic matter was thought to be so contentious that he originally penned his book using a pseudonym.

Phillip’s book is titled Brothers Kept Apart and can be purchased on Amazon.com at a reasonable price. Some members of the BU family have already demonstrated that they are students of the religions. Brother Phillips advises that the book represents 30 years of research and 7 years of critical review and he stands ready to defend his thesis.

It is no secret that the BU household has demonstrated a keen interest in the religions or what some people disparagingly refer to as dogmas. It is a fascinating subject and one which is shrouded in mystery, allegories, parables, fables and some theology  Religion has been used through the ages to edify and destroy man’s existence. Of interest to all through the ages has been the cooption of  religion to pit Islam versus Christianity, East versus West by geo-political motivated groups.

For a synopsis of the book the BU family is welcomed to visit Phillips’s blog. We look forward to a fascinating discussion and take the opportunity to wish him every success.

What he has attempted demonstrates courage of conviction, a characteristic in scarce supply.

.

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1,124 responses to “The Bible And The Qur'an, Brothers Kept Apart”

  1. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Rohan

    You have not answered my simple question.

    Can you tell us what you would do if you were in God’s position. How would you or how should a holy God respond to the sin of mankind?

  2. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    “Ignorance is no more virtuous in theology than in science.”

    As C.S. Lewis so aptly said:

    “Nonsense remains nonsense…even when we take it about God.”

  3. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    @ROK……’In as much as I accept the illuminati or the imperialists as living people trying to control the world is as much as I accept God.’ I interpreted that as you not accepting the God (of the bible) and by extension not accepting the illuminati and its role in society. Talk about lost in translation!

    @MME….It is ok to be an Apatheist if that means that you don’t give a rat’s ass about misinterpreted myths found in that little black book. So long live the Apatheist!

  4. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Georgie, you keep asking me “how should a holy God respond to the sin of mankind?”

    Are you telling me that this creature (God), obviously the most intelligent and most powerful entity in the universe cannot think of a better way to handle disobedience but ENDLESS TORTURE by fire?

    You would think with his power and intelligence he could come up with hundreds of other ways, but he falls back on something as horrible and unsophisticated as torture.

    I can think of hundreds of other ways a loving (and Perfect creature) could handle things instead of the callous murder and war-crimes committed by the God of the bible.

    If that’s all you two can come up with, then I question your intelligence, compassion, and sanity. Yes, both of you.

  5. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Rohan

    I allow you to hold your view without questioning your intelligence or sanity. Why cant you accord me the same.

    I know that you can think of hundreds of other ways that a loving God I could handle things. That is why I am asking you to share them with us. May be we can implore Him to take heed. What do you think, Sir?

  6. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Hopi

    Sorry about that. I was really saying that the god of the bible is no more than the illuminati and not the Creator; just a political guru. Of course I consider Christ and the bible to be the greatest politician and political force ever.

  7. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Georgie,
    The day I tell you that my all-powerful invisible zombie friend, who is his own father, was raised from the dead after been tortured to death as his father watched (well, technically as he watched himself), and he gave me these rules I must follow and if I disobey him he will burn me alive for all eternity.

    But he loves me. He loves me and he needs 10% of my money.

    The day I tell you that I believed this story, you’re welcome to call me crazy!

  8. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    http://brainz.org/ten-most-revealing-psych-experiments/

    Check out this article on the ten most revealing psychological experiments.

    Numbers 3,4,5, and 8 are quite telling in showing how the human brain can quite easily “fool itself”.

    I’m curious to see what folks here think.

    http://brainz.org/ten-most-revealing-psych-experiments/

  9. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Rohan

    But can you share any of the hundreds of other ways that you can think of that a loving God could handle things differently?
    I promise you that I will ask him to entertain your views. What sayest thou?

  10. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Rohan

    It would be good if you ignore GP. Very condescending indeed. As intelligent and read as he think he is, he does not have the ear of his god. So what is he doing when he says this:

    “But can you share any of the hundreds of other ways that you can think of that a loving God could handle things differently? I promise you that I will ask him to entertain your views. What sayest thou?”

    Unless, of course, he is a reincarnation of the fairy tale Moses.

  11. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    @ Zoe
    I suspect you are a preacher, so you would appreciate this outline for use in one of your sermons to teach folk a little about Jesus.

    Jesus is God’s Answer to Man’s Disappointment
    Jesus is God’s Answer to Man’s Doubt
    Jesus is God’s Answer to Man’s Disability
    Jesus is God’s Answer to Man’s Desire
    Jesus is God’s Answer to Man’s Darkness
    Jesus is God’s Answer to Man’s Despair
    Jesus is God’s Answer to Man’s Death

    What you think? Isnt he wonderful?

  12. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Some Scriptures that declare that God listens to prayer. that He HEARS prayer

    Matthew 21:21-22

    Then Jesus told them, “I assure you, if you have faith and don’t doubt, you can do things like this and much more. You can even say to this mountain, ‘May God lift you up and throw you into the sea,’ and it will happen. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

    1 John 5:14-15

    And we can be confident that he will listen to us whenever we ask him for anything in line with his will. And if we know he is listening when we make our requests, we can be sure that he will give us what we ask for.

    1 Peter 3:12

    The eyes of the Lord watch over those who do right, and his ears are open to their prayers. But the Lord turns his face against those who do evil.”
    James 5:16

    Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results.
    Isaiah 65:24

    I will answer them before they even call to me. While they are still talking to me about their needs, I will go ahead and answer their prayers!

    James 1:5-7

    If you need wisdom—if you want to know what God wants you to do—ask him, and he will gladly tell you. He will not resent your asking. But when you ask him, be sure that you really expect him to answer, for a doubtful mind is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. People like that should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.
    Psalm 86:6-7

    Listen closely to my prayer, O Lord; hear my urgent cry. I will call to you whenever trouble strikes,
    and you will answer me.

    Psalm 145:18-19

    The Lord is close to all who call on him, yes, to all who call on him sincerely. He fulfills the desires of those
    who fear him; he hears their cries for help and rescues them.

    Psalm 55:16-18

    But I will call on God, and the Lord will rescue me. Morning, noon, and night I plead aloud in my distress,
    and the Lord hears my voice. He rescues me and keeps me safe from the battle waged against me,
    even though many still oppose me.

    Psalm 65:1-2, 5

    What mighty praise, O God, belongs to you in Zion. We will fulfill our vows to you, for you answer our prayers, and to you all people will come. …5 You faithfully answer our prayers with awesome deeds, O God our savior.
    You are the hope of everyone on earth, even those who sail on distant seas.
    Deuteronomy 4:7

    For what great nation has a god as near to them as the Lord our God is near to us whenever we call on him?

    Psalm 10:17

    Lord, you know the hopes of the helpless. Surely you will listen to their cries and comfort them.
    Psalm 55:17

    Morning, noon, and night I plead aloud in my distress, and the Lord hears my voice.

    Psalm 40:1

    I waited patiently for the Lord to help me, and he turned to me and heard my cry.

  13. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP

    I don’t know who you trying to fool with that so-called evidence. You really expect Rohan to place any credence in that long dose of ||||||. You can’t find something else that he would more grab at. You barely inflating cyberspace.

  14. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Yes, GP, The Lord Jesus Christ is absolutly wonderful, beyond words!!!

    Only those who have literally experienced His Mercy, Grace, Love, and abiding presence in our lives, can truly understand what what He did for us on Calvary’s Cross, when He took upon Himself our SIN, bore our ‘penalty’ of eternal separation from Almighty God, which we all deserve in Hell, and gave us His Righteousness, upon sincere repentance and faith in Him, as our Saviour and Lord!

    This is why we KNOW in our ‘knower’ that we KNOW, beyond a shadow of doubt, that He is real, that He IS alive, seated at the Father’s right hand in glory in heaven!

    Rohan et all, cannot begin to fathom, the absolute Justice, Holiness, and Righteousness of Almighty God, and therefore, that ALL sin that IS not forgiven, and cleansed by Jesus’ Holy shed blood, MUST be judged and punished in eternity.

    We can never begin to understand the absolute Love, Mercy, and Grace of God, as He offered His Son, Jesus Christ in our stead, as our substitute, as NONE of us individually or collectively had NOTHING to offer God, to satisfy His absolute ‘Justice’ that SIN MUST be paid for, before reconcilation can occur.

    Eternal Life in heaven for those who have freely accepted God’s Mercy, Grace, and Love, in Christ Jesus, is the opposite of those who have chosen to reject God’s provision of forgiveness, mercy and love, one CANNOT have one without the other, as Eternal Life for those who Repent, is one side of the coin, the other side is Eternal misery and torment.

    God’s absolute Mercy, Grace, and Love, cannot be separated from His absolute Justice, Holiness, and Righteousness.

    For He has made and offered, paid in FULL, our Redemption, it is our choice to either accept or reject it.

    You cannot have Eternal Joy, Peace, and Happiness, without, the consequences of rejection, which is; Eternal Torment, Misery, forever; otherwise, this would not be true justice!!!

  15. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “Now that is a problem. You are taking the word Divine to higher heights than it was originally intended to mean.”
    ———

    LOL… actually Rok, the reason I placed the definition in quotations is because it was first used by Anslem in 1077. So it is a definition that has been in use for nearly a thousand years.

    “We both know why you tried to use that word.”
    ———

    Rohan, if it makes you more comfortable, replace “have faith” with “believe with strong conviction” (you know… like your faith in parallel universes and string theory… where is your proof or evidence for that?)… it doesn’t change the validity of my argument, and as you can tell, unlike fundamentalists and atheists like yourself, I am very accommodating 🙂

  16. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    MME,
    You’re obviously a smart guy. I’ve said that before, so I really enjoy our discussion. With that out of the way…;)

    A lack of belief is not the same as believing with strong conviction.

    You’re confusing two things that are at the opposite ends of the spectrum.

    I believe with strong conviction in gravity. Evidence is everywhere. Literally.

    I do not believe in the tooth fairy. There is no evidence for her existence. None.

    Now with ZERO evidence for a tooth fairy, and mountains of evidence that it’s your mother that puts the dollar under your pillow, we can dismiss the existence of a tooth fairy outright.

    There is no active belief with strong conviction, but simply the default position that THINKING people hold when presented with fantastical claims. This default position is simply this:

    WHEN PRESENTED WITH REMARKABLE CLAIMS, THINKING PEOPLE REQUIRE REMARKABLE EVIDENCE.

    If you are going to sit in the front row of a theatre and believe that the magician literally just sawed that woman in half, you are a fool. Simple and plain.

    Now consider how more foolish it is to believe that the magician sawed the woman in half because you read it in a book!

    I can at least excuse the person in the front row of the theatre who think they saw it with their own eyes.

  17. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    JOHN 20: 29

    28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
    29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    1 PETER 1: 8

    7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
    8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
    9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

    The Anglicans have a beautiful hymn on these two verses (JOHN 20: 29 & 1 PETER 1: 8) that says

    O Savior, precious Savior,
    Whom yet unseen we love!
    O Name of might and favor,
    All other names above!
    We worship Thee, we bless Thee,
    To Thee, O Christ, we sing;
    We praise Thee, and confess Thee
    Our holy Lord and King.
    O Bringer of salvation,
    Who wondrously hast wrought,
    Thyself the Revelation
    Of love beyond our thought;
    We worship Thee, we bless Thee,
    To Thee, O Christ, we sing;
    We praise Thee, and confess Thee
    Our gracious Lord and King.
    In Thee all fullness dwelleth,
    All grace and power divine;
    The glory that excelleth,
    O Son of God, is Thine;
    We worship Thee, we bless Thee,
    To Thee, O Christ, we sing:
    We praise Thee, and confess Thee
    Our glorious Lord and King.
    O grant the consummation
    Of this our song above,
    In endless adoration,
    And everlasting love!
    Then shall we praise and bless Thee
    Where perfect praises ring,
    And evermore confess Thee
    Our Savior and our King.

  18. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Rohan

    Since you raised it in one of your posts this week, I will give you an
    EXPOSITION OF MATTHEW 24 and show you how to divide a text in its context.
    Can you run with me on this one?

    Matthew 24 and 25, known as the Olivet Discourse, constitute the last of
    three major discourses in Matthew’s Gospel. These discourses are:
    (1) Constitution of the Kingdom (Sermon on the Mount) -Matthew 5-7. Ethics
    of the Kingdom.
    (2) Continuation of the Kingdom ( Mystery Parable Discourse Matthew 13.
    Enunciation of the present state of the Kingdom
    (3) Conclusion of the Kingdom (Olivet Discourse) Matthew 24, 25.
    Eschatology (future) of the Kingdom.
    They are called major discourses because of the extent, content, and intent
    of them

    We will ,however, focus our attention to rightly dividing
    chapter 24 only, and show how this chapter and its parallel passages in Mark
    and Luke are relevant to contemporary Christians .

    One of the things that makes the Bible such a fascinating book is that it is
    always up-to-date and filled with the most pertinent, often exciting
    information. It contains lots of information too about the future. There are
    many predictive passages in both Old and New Testaments, but none is clearer
    or more detailed than the message delivered by Jesus himself as he sat on
    the Mount of Olives overlooking the city of Jerusalem during the turbulent
    events of his last week before the cross. These words have immense
    significance for us for they are a revelation of the ultimate fate of the
    earth.

    In this chapter Jesus, about A.D. 32 looks ahead to foretell the destruction
    of the city of Jerusalem and the, disturbances connected with that singular
    event. He looks on across the centuries and outlines the perils that lie
    between his first and second coming, thus describing the very age in which
    we live. He looks past the present day to that time which he calls “the end
    of the age” and sets its events before us in searing and vivid detail,
    culminating in his own return to earth and the ushering in of a new day.

    As we read his perceptive words we realize that what is coming is but the
    unfolding of events which will grow out of movements and processes already
    at work in human society. The future has already begun, and our Lord’s
    outlining of its course will greatly help us to understand what is taking
    place in our own day.

    The Olivet discourse is generally most confusing to unravel for most
    believers. The relevance of rightly dividing this portion of scripture for
    all believers is the central place of the Olivet discourse in understanding
    the prophesy of the end times. The Book of Daniel, the Olivet Discourse, and
    the Book of Revelation combined give a composite picture of prophecy which
    relates to the coming of Christ to establish His Kingdom. All
    eschatological exposition revolves on this discourse; for “it is here that
    Jesus reached back to Daniel and the other prophets, and forward to
    Revelation, and, without unnecessary repetition, combined the three into a
    consonant whole. The Olivet discourse is the bridge that unites Daniel and
    Revelation. Once our approach to these books are Scripturally sound, we find
    that the Olivet discourse is in harmony with them. A study of the Olivet
    discourse by contemporary Christians is relevant today, because of the
    double purpose which it serves. Not only does it add to our information
    concerning the end of the age, but it also checks our interpretation of
    Daniel and Revelation.

    These are most important truths to grasp since this sermon by itself
    establishes Jesus as the prophet that Moses foretold, and to be God- no one
    else could have done what Jesus did in this sermon. He is therefore worthy to
    be listened to exclusively as recommended in Hebrews 1:1-3.

    By demonstrating the perfect harmony of these great prophesies of the end
    time the inerrancy and inspiration of the scriptures is also demonstrated.
    Such demonstrations ought always to be relevant and a source of blessing and
    assurance to all believers of all ages. It is well to remember 2 Peter 1:20
    at this point, “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of
    any private interpretation. “

  19. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    The second coming of Christ begins with the rapture of the church [the
    blessed hope of Titus 2:13 ,when the Lord comes IN THE AIR FOR THE SAINTS, and climbs to another height seven years later at the glorious appearing ,when He returns to earth WITH the saints [ Jude14, Rev 19 :11-16] to usher in the millennial kingdom so often spoken of by the Old Testament writers.

    It is very important to note that the second coming of Christ occurs over a
    period of time and is not just a single event. In fact, this period of time
    includes about ten major events which are outlined below in chronological
    order. It is also noteworthy that the second coming of Christ will occur in
    two distinct phases, both of which are clearly identified in several
    scriptural passages.

    It should be obvious from reading the Old Testament prophecies that the
    references to the second advent of Christ in the Old Testament ALL refer to the second phase of the second coming of Christ. The Rapture of The Church [ the first phase of the second coming which is an exclusive experience of the true Church ] is fundamentally a New Testament doctrine.

    Truths concerning the rapture were first alluded to by Jesus during the Olivet discourse [Matthew 23-25, Mark 13 and Luke 21.] and in John 14 in the special teachings he held for the disciples only , which John records. These embryonic mentions of this doctrine were later expanded on by Paul in1Cor 15: 51 ff , and in 1 Thes 4 :16-18 and also by Peter in 2Peter 3. They are also other brief mentions to this event in the other epistles.
    The chronological order of the events of The Second Coming of Christ is as
    follows.
    1. The Rapture of the Church, (Ist. Phase) followed by the judgment Seat
    of Christ (bema) and the marriage of the lamb.
    2.The Revelation of Antichrist.
    3. The Rigors of The Great Tribulation.
    4. The Resounding Victory of Christ at the Battle of Armageddon.
    5. The Return of Christ in Glory (2nd. phase)
    6.The Renegade Satan is bound.
    7.The Rule of Christ in the Millenial Kingdom.
    8. The Rebellion of Satan for the last time.
    9. The Rejection of unbelievers at the last judgment.
    10.The Retirement of the saints to the new heaven and the new earth.

    A right division of Matthew 24-25 assists us in putting these events, which
    are predicted separately and in a disconnected way all through the Old
    Testament, into their chronological order.

    Of the events listed above the Lord in the Olivet discourse, touched briefly
    at least on items 1-5, and 7,and 9 but put the emphasis on the rigors of
    the great tribulation, his return in glory and the rapture of the church.
    This is because the Lord wanted to make it clear to his disciples and to us
    that the order of events of the last days is as follows:
    1. The rise of many false Christs, with wars, rumours of wars, and
    commotions, together with any other prophecies that may be fulfilled before the Rapture and which may be included in the time indicated by “the time is not yet.”
    2. The Rapture.
    3. The beginning of sorrows.
    In addition, Jesus knew that full details of the other events had either
    been previously given, or would later be given by the Spirit through John
    and Paul.

    A good working outline of this chapter is given below.
    1. Presentation of questions by disciples to Jesus on top of the Mount of
    Olives (vv. 1-3).
    2. Panorama of this age (vv. 4-14).
    3. Persecution preceding the Great Tribulation (vv. 8-13).
    4 Prophecy of the Great Tribulation (vv. 15-20).
    5 The great tribulation (vv 21-28)
    6. Proclamation of the Second Coming of Christ (vv. 29-31).
    6. Parable of the fig tree (vv. 32-35).
    7. Program for God’s people (vv. 36-51).

  20. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Rohan
    Can you figure out yet where your text figures in to the context of the passage and the whole scheme of things yet?

    Any one can quote Scripture in a slap dash, hodge podge, willy nilly fashion.
    But puting it into context by reading the collateral passages and studying to show yourself approved is another issue!

  21. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    AIDS TO UNDERSTANDING THE OLIVET DISCOURSE

    Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point
    out to him the buildings of the temple. But be answered them, ‘You see all
    these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down.

    As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately,
    saying, ‘Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age.

    The first three verses of Matthew 24: provide for us the key to its
    structure and the context of the events out of which it came.

    The reason why the disciples had come to Jesus at this time to point out to
    him the beauty of the Temple buildings which he had obviously often seen
    previously as he taught in its courts was the result of their astonishment
    and surprise at the statement he made as he left the Temple for the last
    time as described in chapter 23:37 ff when he pronounced upon it and the
    city a sentence of severe judgement..

    “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them which are sent unto thee ! How often
    would I have gathered thy children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
    For I say unto you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he
    who comes in the name of the Lord.”‘

    This statement had come at the end of the most blistering sermon be ever
    delivered, addressed to the scribes and the Pharisees, consisting of a
    series of “woes” pronounced upon their hypocrisy. Though they were supposed
    to be the teachers of the people they were actually hindering them from
    knowing the truth of God. Jesus began his ministry with a series of eight
    blessings ( the beatitudes of Matthew chapter 5 and ended it with a series
    of eight woes on these self -righteous persons who though professing to
    know him were behaving quite contrary to their profession-.

  22. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    After completing this sermon, Jesus, for the second time, cleansed the
    Temple of the money changers. John records the first occasion (2:13-21)
    which occurred at the beginning of the Lord’s ministry and Mark records that
    when be came to Jerusalem for the last week, be went into the Temple and
    began to drive out those who bought and sold. (Mark 11:16). Having
    pronounced the sentence of rejection, “Behold, your house is forsaken and
    desolate,” Jesus left the Temple with his disciples and walked down through
    the valley of the Kidron and up the other side to the Mount of Olives.

    There Jesus took his seat upon one of the rocks that overlooked the city and
    the Temple area. The disciples were troubled and confused. They could not
    understand his actions or is words concerning the temple which was the
    center of the nation’s life and they regarded it with holy awe as the very
    dwelling place of God among his people. Its beauty was famous throughout
    the earth and they could not believe that God would allow any harm to come
    to it. So they began to point out to Jesus the strength and beauty of the
    Temple. Jesus’ response only distressed and confused them even further:

    “Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another,
    that will not be thrown down.” They could not believe that this could
    happen, since it was well known that the Romans were lovers of temples. It
    was their boast that they preserved, if at all possible, the temples and
    monuments of any country they conquered. They had been in power in
    Palestine for many years and they bad not destroyed the Temple. There
    seemed no good reason, therefore, why this Temple should ever be destroyed.
    But Jesus solemnly assures them that there would not be one stone left
    standing upon another.

    This raised many questions in their minds. They came with three questions
    which related to their perplexity. The Olivet Discourse is the answer Jesus
    gave to these three questions of the disciples:
    (1) “Tell us when shall these things be?”
    (2) “And what shall be the sign of thy coming,”
    (3) “And of the end of the world (age)?” or , ” What will
    be the sign of the close of the age?”- Matthew 24:3.
    The disciples ask Jesus three questions, and He answers two in Mathew about
    the sign of the end of the age, and the sign of His coming

    The first question which the disciples asked the Lord. “Tell us when will
    this be means, of course, when will the destruction of the temple occur.
    The answer to this question which is only recorded by Luke was that it would
    be when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies. A number of them were still
    living when Titus fulfilled this prediction in A. D 70.

    The answers to the last two questions about the sign of the end of the age,
    and the sign of His coming are recorded in Matthew because they have to do
    with the “kingdom” and its setting up.

    When the disciples asked their second question, “What will be the sign of
    your coming?”, they did not mean as we frequently take it, what is the sign
    that will be the time of your coming. We tend to associate signs with
    schedules ,but the disciples knew better than that. What they meant was,
    ” What is the event that will reveal the meaning of your coming? This is the
    purpose of signs in Scripture.

  23. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    The real significance of Jesus’ initial alarming statements that occasioned
    these questions, was that Jesus was here giving his credentials as a
    prophet according to the requirement of Deuteronomy 18. 18 -22 which
    stipulated that whenever a prophet essayed to foretell the future it was
    necessary that he give a sign by which his prophecy could be tested.

    Many Bible scholars agree that this test was a foreview of the coming of Jesus
    Christ. He was that prophet, raised up by God among the people of Israel,
    who would be like Moses and would speak words that the nation should hear.

    In the practical carrying out of that admonition it became customary for the prophets to give the people a prediction of something that would occur in the near future.

    When it came to pass as foretold, the people would know that this was indeed an authenticated prophet. But if the sign did not occur as predicted, the
    prophecy in its entirety was to be rejected as not from God, and the prophet was thus exposed as false.

    So Jesus predicts the downfall of the Temple in the near future as a sign that all else he includes in this discourse is
    also true. This is the background of the disciples request for a sign associated with his coming .

    “As we said above these questions were perfectly natural in view of the
    instruction of Moses to ask for a sign when a prediction was made. “They
    asked out of confusion. There were many things they could not see or were
    refusing to believe. In many ways we can understand much better than they
    what their questions meant, for we have the history of twenty centuries to
    look back upon.

    Also, we accept the importance of Christ’s death and resurrection, against
    which they were in revolt. Therefore, they could not understand all that he
    said to them. He had been puzzling them for months and they were now quite out of harmony with him. He had told them plainly of his coming death and resurrection, but they refused to give heed. Since they would not allow
    themselves to face the terrible specter of his death, they could not have
    any clear idea of what be meant when he said be was coming again.

    Thus, when they asked him about his coming they did not have in mind a
    second advent. They did not picture a descent from heaven to earth, nor
    anything at all of what we mean when we speak of Christ’s second coming.
    They had in mind a political revolution and the crowning of Jesus as King
    and his subsequent presence among the nation as its acknowledged King and
    Messiah.

  24. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    It is noteworthy that they used a very interesting word for coming. It is
    the Greek word, “parousia.” This word appears four times in this passage,
    in verses 3, 27, 37, and 39.

    It is not the usual word for coming. It means more than the mere arrival of a person; it also implies his continuing
    presence after he arrives. This is important, because the understanding of this discourse depends upon the meaning of this word.

    The English word “coming” appears other times in the message, but it is not the same Greek word and has a different meaning.

    Even after the resurrection these
    disciples were still asking Jesus questions that reflected a political
    concept of his coming. In Acts 1:6 they asked, “Lord, will you at this time
    restore the kingdom to Israel?” They were obviously still thinking of a
    political rule over the nations of earth.

    He did not deny that this eventually will occur, but simply reminded them that the times and seasons are the Father’s prerogative to determine. Thus when they ask him on the Mount of Olives, “What will be the sign of your coming?” It is not a question about his coming again but of his presence in the nation as king – an event that will occur eventually after the tribulation

    In the Lord’s answer, however, he seems to treat it as a legitimate inquiry
    concerning his second advent and in so doing gives us a panaromic view of
    the events that will occur when he is away. In addition he connects the
    prophecy of Daniel already given, with the prophecy of Revelation, not yet
    given, without repeating any of the revelation either past or future thus
    indicating that he was God and knew the plan for the purposes of God’s
    program. .”

  25. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    The disciples also asked for a second sign, concerning the close of the age-
    not the end of the world, as in the King James Version. The world will go on for a long time after the events of the
    Olivet Discourse are fulfilled, but the age will end with these events.

    The reason why they thought that the end of the age lay immediately ahead
    was due to the fact that
    1] . They had heard Jesus teaching the parables of the kingdom (Matthew 13) and had heard him speak of a close of the age when he would send his angels throughout the earth to gather men to judgment.
    2] due to their acquaintance with the Old Testament predictions of
    Messiah’s rule and reign over the earth
    3] their knowledge of Daniel’s remarkable prophecy (Daniel 9) that there would be a period of 490 years (seventy weeks of years, or 490 years), from the rebuilding of Jerusalem after the Babylonian captivity until the time of Messiah the, Prince.

    From that prophecy they may well
    have known that the 490 years were almost completely expired, and it was
    little wonder that they expected the close of the age to be very near indeed.

    What they could not see and could not be expected to see was that there
    would occur a wide valley of time between the hour in which they asked their question and the close of the age in the far distant future. We must not
    blame them for this, for it is difficult to distinguish the two comings of
    Jesus in the Old Testament prophecies.

    Peter wrote that the prophets
    foresaw “tbe sufferings of Christ” ( which occur at his first coming to
    earth) and the subsequent glory ( which will occur only at his second coming to earth) ” But to them it seemed” as if they were one great event.

    What looked to them to be one great mountain range of fulfillment was
    actually two widely separated ranges with a great valley of time- the
    church age- in between.

  26. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    In attempting to understand the Olivet discourse we must also understand
    that the Lord answered their questions in the reverse order to which thy
    asked them

    The sign of the close of the age which is the subject of their second question is given first in verse 15. It is the desolating sacrilage standing in the holy place.

    The sign of his coming is given is given in verse 30— then will appear the
    sign of the son of man in heaven

    What is very noteworthy is that the Lord takes pains to make clear to his
    disciples that the end of the age lies in the distant future and was not to
    be as soon as they thought .

    “Here in this great prediction are illustrated two great principles of
    prophetic fulfillment. First, there is often an unspecified interval of
    time which may operate to delay final fulfillment far beyond what may
    otherwise be expected. Jesus warned in Acts 1 that “the times and the seasons [are] not for you to know,” but remain always in the Father’s sovereign choice. The second principle is that of double fulfillment.

    When Jesus predicted the encirclement of Jerusalem by hostile armies and its
    conquest and overthrow, it was fulfilled to the letter less than forty years
    later. But that historic fulfillment became in turn a preview of another
    day in the far distant future when again Jerusalem would be surrounded by
    armies and would face its hour of destruction on a greater scale than ever
    before. Then it will be the close of the age. The age which is thus to be
    closed is the age in which we now live.”

    We need to appreciate too that lthough the Lord seemed to be speaking to
    these men as if they would live to see all the events he was, however, in reality predicting speaking to them as representative men. Some of them did
    actually see the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem as he had
    predicted. However, none lived to see the close of the age and none of them
    will obviously go through the great tribulation

    These men were however uniquely representative men in that they were
    representatives of both Israel and the church, because they represented a
    transition of these two institutions. At the time be spoke, to them they
    were Jewish believers, men of Israel, all of them. They represented the
    nation and God’s dealings with that remarkable people. But after the cross
    and Pentecost, they were Christians, part of the Church , neither Jew nor
    Greek. They would then belong to a unique body which has a task to
    fulfill throughout the intervening centuries before the end times. Thus
    this message includes truth for the church in its relationship ship to the
    present age, and also truth for Israel in its time of trouble at the end of
    the age These disciples are representatives of both groups and the Lord speaks to them as such

  27. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    It is important in interpreting the Olivet discourse to understand that the
    disciples were not thinking in terms of the church- the church had not yet
    been energised by the Holy Spirit so technically it had not yet begun. When
    we read the Olivet Discourse we must not try to read into it the events of
    the last 1900 years or so or try to insert the church into this section
    because Jesus is definitely not speaking about the church age. He is only
    answering the questions of the disciples who are thinking in terms of the
    establishing of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth- the millennium. The Olivet
    Discourse is a panoramic view of the time of the end to which Daniel
    referred and which the disciples would later inquire about prior to the
    ascension in Acts 1:6 when they asked “Wilt thou at this time restore again
    the kingdom to Israel ? ”
    .
    We must remember that the disciples were saturated with the many Old
    Testament Scriptures which clearly predicted a period of intense sorrow
    which would precede the establishing of the Kingdom, labeled “the time of
    Jacob’s trouble. ( Jeremiah 30:7). Even Moses had referred to this time of
    trouble before the children of Israel entered the promised land in Deut.
    4:30, 3 1. “When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon
    thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt
    be obedient unto his voice; (for the Lord thy God is a merciful God.) he
    will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy
    fathers which he sware unto them.”

    Many verses declare plainly that this discourse belongs to Israel and the
    Gentiles, and not to the Church. Although some of the events at the
    beginning of the discourse are contemporary with the Church, even here they
    are not synonymous terms.

    One of the things that helped me most in understanding the Olivet discourse
    is a statement in Me Gee’s books on Mathew. He opines that we must listen to
    the Lord who himself gives us the key words ” WHEN” and “THEN” or “AFTER”.
    If we will underline these words and observe what is written behind them we
    will get the chronology of the Olivet Discourse correctly and we will be
    able to rightly divide the truths therein.

  28. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    GP, Good, sound exposition of His Word; though the critics will no doubt take you to task for such long discourses, this is unavoidable if we are to ‘correctly divide’ His Word.

    All of this spoken by Jesus, has been unfolding, bit by bit over the last two thousand years, with the season, now at hand for the literal fulfillment of the consummation of the End Times.

    But, the scoffers will continue to scoff, ignoring the warnings, as also spoken in the Word of God.

    Many will come home to Jesus, and be comforted by Him, and many others will perish!

    Exactly as the Bible said it would happen!

  29. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    http://imgur.com/x0r1u.png

    thought this was funny. Seriously, Xtians are hilarious.

  30. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Rohan

    You wanna comment on the BIble without studying it? You remind me of Paul’s edict in 1 Timothy 1:3b-7

    that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
    4Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
    5Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
    6From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
    7Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

    Are you finished scoffing at the doctrine of the second coming yet? Or do you want to learn more?

  31. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “I believe with strong conviction in gravity. Evidence is everywhere. Literally.”
    —————-

    The thing is Rohan, for me evidence of Divinity is also everywhere. I’m out of arguments though, and will wind up with these quotations:

    “…there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source… They are creatures who can’t hear the music of the spheres.” // “There are only two ways to live your life. 
One is as though nothing is a miracle. 
The other is as though everything is a miracle.” – Einstein

    “In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God’s existence” – Newton

    I consider our very existence to be a miracle.

  32. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    MME,
    We both know that Einstein was not a theist. I know because he said it. You know because you seem to be a well-read guy and I have a feeling you’ve seen his many quotes on the point.

    If not, my apologies. Let me know and I’ll post his quote for you.

    As for Newton, and other brilliant thinkers who believed in God…

    So?

    Think for yourself and you won’t need authority figures to co-sign your beliefs.
    ***

  33. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    The thing is Rohan, for me evidence of Divinity is also everywhere.
    ****
    MME, there is no link between the evidence and the “Divinity” whatever that is.

    You use the evidence as support for the “Divinity” and I use it to support the “Tooth Fairy”.

    That’s how weak your evidence is, I can just as easy use it to support a fictional character that we both dismiss.

    Come again MME.

  34. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    As was said above, “I consider our very existence to be a miracle.”

    Absolutely, the only reasonable, logical conclusion, any rational person would come to!

    God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness.

    “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the TRUTH in unrighteousness, (unbelievers) because what may be KNOWN of God IS MANIFEST in them, for God has SHOWN IT TO THEM. For since the CREATION of the world His invisible attributes are clearly SEEN, been understood by the things that are MADE, even His eternal power and Godhead, so (Rohan et al) they are WITHOUT EXCUSE, because although they knew God, they did NOT glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became FUTILE in their thoughts, and their FOOLISH hearts were darkened.” (Rom. 1:18-21) emphasis added.

    Futile is from the Greek word, ‘matainoo’ To make empty, vain, foolish, useless, confused. The word describes the perverted logic and idolatrous presumption of those who do not honor God or show Him any gratitude for His blessings on humanity.

    Rohan:

    Folly of the Godless, and God’s Final Triumph.

    “The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God.” There are corrupt. They have done abominable works.” (Psa. 14: 1).

  35. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Zoe
    Can you exegete Jude vs14-15 for these scoffers of the word.

    14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
    15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

    I think this text is most appropriate.

  36. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Thats a very interesting text Anonymous

    I taught in a little church in St Joseph in 1981. Here are some notes I made then…… but I agree with you it is most appropriate on this thread.

    In verses 14 and 15 of Jude, Jude uses Enoch, who used the Second Advent of Christ, to notify the unbelieving apostates of his (Enoch’s) own day as to their fate and the fate of all unbelieving apostates throughout time. Now why would Enoch use the Second Advent as an example and not some other period? Three reasons: 1) Enoch only had six prior generations to glean from, and 2) apostasy will reach its greatest concentration just before the Second Advent; finally, 3) our Lord actually deposits all unbelieving apostates in the Lake of Fire at the Second Advent.

    Verse 15 of Jude uses the term “ungodly” four times. The Gr. is asebes, and means ‘impious’ in the sense of rejection or unbelief. And note that the ‘judgment’ comes before the ‘conviction’ in verse 15. Why? Because judgment is the reason, the purpose, the objective, the intention of the Second Advent. The judgment is stated to be against “all”, which is pas, the adjective of totality, and refers to “all” of a distinct category, which category is unbelievers. This category is further described as without production of divine good (ungodly acts), without the filling of the Spirit (ungodly way), without the perfect Righteousness of God (ungodly sinners), and as blasphemers (harsh words) of God.

    Revelation 20:12-15 states that they will be condemned by their own deeds, which deeds are recorded in the Books of Works: “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened “Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of Fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

    Thus, the unbelievers will be judged not on the basis of their sins, for those were judged at the Cross, but on the basis of their works of self-righteousness, which self-works are insufficient. Only the work of Christ was sufficient — and the unbeliever has rejected it — and selected to stand on his/her own works. Hebrews 3:19 sums it up, “So we see that they were not able to enter (either the Land or heaven), because of their unbelief.”

    Those in the “book of life” are not judged, because of the law of double jeopardy, which is stated in John 3:18: “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.” The believer cannot be tried again for that which was already tried on the Cross: the law of double jeopardy. And after being judged they are assigned to the Lake of Fire. This concept demands our attention:

    Jude 16–“These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.”
    These men follow only their own evil desires for their own advantage – complainers, murmurers, scheming, flatterers, mocker of spiritual things, those who bring division, and utterly fleshy, having not the Spirit of Christ.

  37. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    It would still be nice to hear what you have to say on these verses Zoe.

  38. Avatar
    Anonymous

    Do you preachers consider your language and to whom you may be addressing? I suppose GP is addressing Zoe and anonymous so they will communicate in their own special code.

  39. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “We both know that Einstein was not a theist. I know because he said it.”
    ————-

    I am sure you also know he wasn’t an atheist. I know because he said it.

    When you quote someone, it does not generally mean you support all of their opinions or world views, but that you support their specific conclusion as represented in their quotation.

    I have thought for myself, and came to the same conclusion as those expressed in the quotations presented. My conclusion was not original, so I cited those who said it far more eloquently than I could.

    I am hopeful that with time, you will be able to distinguish between the concepts of Divinity and Tooth Fairy…. both concepts are constructed in the mind , but only one is “that than which no greater can be thought”.

  40. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    … once you start throwing around labels like ‘theist’ and ‘atheist’ you’re going to run into trouble Rohan… I know you recognise that… it is perhaps why you are so uncomfortable with the label ‘atheist’.

    It is incredibly difficult to label Einstein’s world view… in fact I would posit that there is no label for it. How does Wikipedia label his religious stance?

  41. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    MME

    Einstein was a Jew in the diaspora. He was invited to be the first President of Israel which he turned down. No need to say anymore with regards his religious beliefs; never mind the part about being catholic, a Jew, is a Jew, is a Jew.

  42. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    This is how Wikipedia notes his religious stance:

    “Einstein clarified his religious views in a letter he wrote in response to those who claimed that he worshipped a Judeo-Christian god:

    “It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”

  43. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    RE Do you preachers consider your language and to whom you may be addressing? I suppose GP is addressing Zoe and anonymous so they will communicate in their own special code.

    We use English as our language of communication, and we are addressing an audience that is supposed to be 98% literate. When I read something, and don’t understand words, guess what? I look them up !

    Our language is very simple, and our exegesis of the Word of Truth is as sound as a bell. We have indeed studied to show ourselves approved as workmen that need not to be ashamed in teaching sound doctrine that can not be condemned. We have followed the principle taught in 2 Peter 1 that “ no scripture is of any private interpretation.” That is to say we have compared scripture with scripture on a particular topic, and tried to ascertain what the texts says, and what the text means. This sometimes includes looking up the meaning of words and their uses in the original languages.

    We do not communicate in any special code. Or teaching of the word is at the basic standard you will meet if you listen to or read the writings of people who engage in inductive Bible study. There is no code or mystery here. Just simple Bible teaching. A far cry from quoting verses out of context in a slap dash, hodge podge way to which you might be accustomed.

    We do not talk in parables or give allegories either!

  44. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    To illustrate the arrogance of Christians. Georgie Porgie agrees with me that man has created hundreds, even thousands of Gods.

    For simplicity sake, let’s say there are 1,000 Gods (man has actually created much more than this). There is no evidence to believe that the God of the bible is any more valid than any of the other 999 Gods.

    The bible says its God is the true God, but so does the texts and oral traditions of the other 999 Gods.

    So the chance of choosing the right God to “worship” is 1/1000 (.01%). But of course, none of you actually had a choice in the matter. More likely than not, you worship the God of your parents, who worshipped the God of their parents, and so on until you realize that this same God is either the God of your Slave masters (if they’re black) or the God of the country you were born in.

    So just by the luck of birth you drew that birth lottery ping pong ball with “Jesus” on it, and that’s why you’re a Christian.

    These are the unpleasant facts xtians. Simple and plain.

    Yet Christians walk around proclaiming that their 1 in 1000 God is the one true God, and while man made up the other 999 Gods, their God is the ONE that’s actually true.

    You guys are funny!

  45. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Rohan

    Re
    To illustrate the arrogance of Christians. Georgie Porgie agrees with me that man has created hundreds, even thousands of Gods.

    You know full well that I have said no such thing or have agreed to no such thing.

    Can you comment on Jude 14& 15 or the Olivet Discourse from which you and others lifted verses out of context as you sought to discredit the notion of the second coming of Christ?

  46. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Rohan

    That quote from Einstein does not impress me, especially as the Talmud tells them that it is OK to tell lies to Gentiles to get what they want. It is so funny that one of his best friends was named Talmud; I dare say it was no accident either and to my mind is indicative of where Einstein’s loyalty “lied”.

    All Jews pay great attention to the fact that they are the Chosen People. They take it to heart although some approach it with greater zeal than others.

  47. anonymous Avatar
    anonymous

    GP is one arrogant preacher. My father always used to say that a little learning is a dangerous thing.

  48. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    LOL

    LOL
    I am not arrogant at all! If you got to meet me you will find that out.

    Just spent the time to study the Word.
    I have not exhibited “a little learning” in my posts on the Bible either…..as you surely know.

    But then when you have studied to show yourself approved unto God, you can indeed be a workman that needeth not to be ashamed! And rightly divide the Word of Truth perennially and perpetually!……and with purpose!

    Any one can do it man. But what is obvious is that many who have posted on this thread about the Bible have not studied nor do they rightly divide the Word!

    Your ad hominem atacks wont run me, Sir.

    Can you comment on Jude 14-15? After all this is an event that is clearly on the horizon. Instead of attacking me, study the Word! Then you can present sound doctrine that can not be refuted.

  49. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    To illustrate the arrogance of Christians. Georgie Porgie agrees with me that man has created hundreds, even thousands of Gods.
    ***
    Forgive me Georgie, it was Bush Tea. You know it’s really easy to mix you guys up…;)

  50. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    LOL Rohan

    You cant mix me up with Bush Tea man. BT speaks in parables an nebulously (cloudy terms). LOL It is he and MME that talk using the code! LOL

    I teach plain simple Bible with authority based on knowing that I am rightly dividing the Word.

    Plus BT spent too much time in Waterford man! LOL

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