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@Enuff
“Up to now you can’t say why the man is not deserving. In a small country how do you escape proximity to “power/decision-making”?”

Once I see you heading down this road, I know things bad.
No, No, No.
The onus is upon those conferring the honour to highlight the contributions, which are being recognized. Period.
Is Barbados, the country conferring the knighthood, doing so for work in Bermuda, Belize, Caymans, Turks and a little in Barbados too. Or for the leverage used in the BLP leadership battles.
Seems like another Marston Gibson were a Bajan leaves home and spends much of their career working elsewhere, only to return home and be knighted.
To me, if the PM had an ounce of moral decency, she would avoid selecting her father at all costs, especially in the first few opportunities she gets to bestow such an honour. What’s the rush? Is the man ill? – Northern Observer

To be honest the blogmaster does not pay too much attention to the New Year Honours list. The selection appears to be less than transparent and more importantly we are not enthused by a system that awards titles that is anchored to an irrelevant colonial past.

The New Year Honours List for 2019 released by the Government Information Service is as follows [blogmaster’s emphasis]:-

The Queen has been graciously pleased to approve the following awards in the 2019 New Year Honours:

KNIGHT BACHELOR (KtBach)

  • Assad John HALOUTE for services to the hospitality industry and philanthropy

KNIGHT COMMANDER OF THE ORDER OF SAINT MICHAEL AND SAINT GEORGE (KCMG)

  • Elliott Deighton MOTTLEY for services to the legal profession, diplomatic service and the community

ORDER OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE

COMMANDER OF THE ORDER OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE (CBE)

  • Dr. Frances Louise CHANDLER, OBE for services to agriculture and sustainable development

OFFICER OF THE ORDER OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE (OBE)

  • Ms. Cynthia Joan WILLIAMS for services to nursing and the community

MEMBER OF THE ORDER OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE (MBE)

  • Reverend Hughson Carlos INNISS for services to youth empowerment and the fight against HIV/AIDS
  • John Wayne Anderson WATTS for services to environmental health

The decision to award Elliott Mottley a knighthood has attracted robust and muscular public comment across the length and breath of Barbados, notwithstanding the din generated by the holiday season. There is no need to be prolix with this matter. A repost of the blogmaster’s too brief comment to Northern Observer is enough.

Agree with this comment, the optics are bad and the brazenness of doing it in the first year of term is a foreboding act.

The opinion of the blogmaster is not meant to ignore Elliott’s Mottley’s contribution in his field of work. However, if the Prime Minister is serious about being a change agent she must avoid decisions that will distract and deepen citizen apathy. The herculean task to turn the country around is bigger than the aggrandisement of any family member. Even if that family member is her father. In fact some will suggest with good reason that the controversial waiver of the tax and penalties (NOT TAX DUE) in the amount of $1,051,872.28 to Elliott Mottley which came out of an audit of Mottley’s accounts is reward enough.

A word to the Prime Minister should be sufficient.

 


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625 responses to “Prime Minister Mottley’s Father Awarded Knighthood”


  1. No, the country had a choice between incompetents who ran the country into the ground and the hope that this lot will be better.


  2. “do you really think that it has been easy trying to unravel the junk the DLP did?”

    We are STILL WAITING for the ARRESTS.


  3. @ T.Inniss December 31, 2018 1:54 PM

    Prodigal

    You could really demonstrate some humility especially since we the tax payers are paying for that nice new cushy job you have been given.
    ……………………………………………..

    Oh no….T Inniss………..you are imagining me to be someone else……I am happily retired……happy to be potting around in my garden……I dont consider house work to be any cushy job……..I do pay taxes too you know!

    By the way……I never supported the BLP to get anything…..dont need it! I only want a good government to do right for the people of Barbados and I am satisfied so far.


  4. @ David who wrote “the hope that this lot will be better”

    I hope they will.

    They already collected $22 million from the Garbage and Sewage Contribution (GSC) since its introduction.

    Taxes on gasoline will bring in a mobaton of cash.

    With all the increased taxes and fees etc. Bajans should expect an improvement in the economy.


  5. @Hants

    We need investment, foreign investment!


  6. Dont know why you Bush Tea seems to think you are an authority on every dam thing
    This is a democracy and i have every right to speak on politics as it applies to the country best interest
    You and others cuss the past govt for taxes
    However as smart as you.and others thought of yourself (to be) voted for a govt that has catspraddle wunns finances in more than six months
    Once again i happy to say that i did not vote for present govt
    Now all you can do is sit back and tek the sh. te that is being offered as “change”
    Change like storing stalewine in new bottles


  7. We need investment, foreign investment!(Quote)

    How foreign? Which school of economics is this little idea from? Barbados needs investments, which is not the same as foreign investments.
    We know the tax breaks that the corporate sector has received since May 24, but what investments are they making? What new jobs are they creating. We just cannot allow mainly family-owned small businesses to mug the state and sit idly by. The BLP government is the political arm of the old plantocracy.


  8. Prodigal

    I will leave you to enjoy directing all Public Affairs.

    Keep well.

    I do truly wish you the best.

  9. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ David December 31, 2018 8:57 AM
    “@enuff
    If you read the brief blog on the matter it opens by suggesting the award of knighthoods is steeped in colonial and political BS, it is not based on merit.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    This ‘backward-looking’ cpycat habit will soon be put to its final test when- one day coming very, very soon- Little England will have to grow up, finally.

    What is Barbados going to do when Queen Lizzie is unable to sign the warrants of knighthood (and damehood?)? Continue to be tied to the ‘English’ monarch apron strings like spoilt bastard of a child?

    Come on fellas, HM Lizzie is a nonagenarian about to meet her maker. She is no Sarah who had her first child for Abraham at the fertile age of 90.

    What plans does the Mottley administration have to deal with this eventuality?
    Continue giving out QCs (soon to be Kcs) and other honorifically regal titles to the Bajan political ass-licking muttleys?

    Do these backward-thinking underdeveloped people understand that every man and woman is a “Sir” and “Lady” under the republic called Bankrupt Barbadoes?

    Is there going to be a referendum on becoming a republic when Queen Lizzie abdicates with ‘great expectations’ in 2019 or could Bajans be so blind than to see no further with their ‘2020’ vision?

    So which should come first? Referendum on engaging Mary Jane or that on ditching Lizzie and her successors?


  10. David
    December 31, 2018 2:21 PM

    @Hants
    We need investment, foreign investment!

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    No, we first need a plan.

    Foreign investment can help, but without a plan it is a death knell!!

    How much foreign investment have we had up till now?

    What is our plan?


  11. I really don’t know why I am siurprised these posh titles whenever I thought of night hoods bajans always came to mind

  12. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @T.Inniss December 31, 2018 12:25 PM
    Has anyone ever considered how strangely Mia Mottley reacted when the following charges were made against her:

    When the Counter charge to her accusation of certification was made by Dennis Lowe for her to bring her Legal Certificate of Education – she never responded.Her father did though .”

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    There you go T.I., exposing your yellow ass again!
    On whose fence were you sitting when the LEC storm was raging on BU?

    How could Mottley produce something she never had, fool?

    So which one is more presentable to the court of public morality? A testimonial of competence, integrity and suitability given by the Father of Bajan Independence or a piece of paper falsely attesting that a Lowedown crook holds a doctorate in divinity issued by some bogus university to make Ross look like Oxford or Edinburgh?

    You and the many pokies ac need to stop parading OSA as some paragon of virtue when it comes to making MAM the current target of your vituperations.

    Just remember that your OSA was once branded by you and your ilk as the thieving lying drunkard who was ‘soundly’ beaten by Mr. Integrity. Yes, the same fumbling incompetent Jackshit Stuart who caused his destructive lying party (DLP) to fall like Humpty Dumpty.

    On the other hand MAM, decimated Stuart in the mother of all Bajan political battles with the ‘dear loving people’ (dlp) of St. John her greatest cheerleaders in that routing.

    You can criticize and cuss MAM as much as you like, and deservedly so, but please be honest with yourself while narrating your yarns of mistruths and fabricated stories.

    But we must confess our willingness to cede to your proposal that that OSA ought to given a knighthood for turning Barbados into a concrete jungle of a forex beggar-nation crisscrossed by Japanese and Korean made steel donkeys.

    So what should Stuart be knighted for? That he and his sidekick Stinkliar mistook the economy of Barbados for a farm of political windmills and destroyed them?


  13. William Skinner

    It is not desire to be contentious by any means here, but I was just wondering from whence you arrived at the hypothesis that due to the racial menagerie in the Caribbean that we can somehow go to any part of the globe, and feel a sense of belong?

    And may I ask: what does a West Indian of African extraction have in common with a Nigerian, but skin colour?
    Because our lingiustics, our culinary, our music, our dress, our religion, our politics, our social ethos, our institution of marriage, are all in sharp contrast with those in Nigeria … so please explain to me the common-ground or connection we have with Nigerians which conveys that sense of belong?

  14. NorthernObserver Avatar

    My best wishes to all for a healthy and prosperous 2019. My thanks to the Blogmaster and crew for keeping the blog up and running.


  15. @John

    It was a high level comment. Yes we have to have a relevant action plan to attract FDI.


  16. Same to you and your family Northern Observer. The Blogmaster appreciates the specialize and dispassionate insights you inject to the blog.


  17. Miller

    Save all dat blasted hot air skipper.

    Who dead and mek you God.

    You are wide off the mark as far as I am concerned.

    I save my strength for responses that I feel matter. – else I would be all over the place – hither -thither and yon – seeking to give an alternative view.

    Cuss the DLP if you so care – but don’t try to tell me what I should and should not address about Mottley.

    Check yuhself.

  18. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ December 31, 2018 2:21 PM
    “We need investment, foreign investment!”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    So when are the Bajan people going to be told by the MAM administration who are the foreign investors behind the Hyatt the same way they are aware of the foreign man and his money behind Beaches (aka the sister of Sandals) and the Chinese hotel once called the Sam Lord’s castle owned by their money god called Caishen?


  19. @Miller

    MAM1 seems to have developed a relationship with MAM2, all – we hope – will be revealed in the fullness of time.

  20. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ T.Inniss December 31, 2018 3:47 PM

    What has “Mottley” done to you that OSA did not do?

    Can’t you get it through your stupid dense head that these people are all members of the same political class in which you the consummate yardfowl called a “Bajanfuhlife” will always be a wannabe?

    Don’t be surprised id MAM ‘knights’ FJS in November before OSA as the last of the Bajan political Mohicans.


  21. Bushie
    We need to up the quality of the debate and begin firstly with recognising and accepting the space within which we operate. Once we do this, we can then begin to better articulate a position void of politics, myopia and based on optics. Bad optics do not necessarily mean bad/wrong decision.


  22. @enuff

    You need also to accept that irrelevance of the awards as presently constituted.

  23. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ David December 31, 2018 3:56 PM

    D’accord!

    Can the Bajan Treasury therefore kiss good bye any chances of recouping the thousands of scarce tax dollars waived on the Mercedes Benz imported for a ghost working as a sales director at an imaginary hotel?

    Is this a quid pro quo case of you scratching my Ross dormitory back in return for turning a blind eye to Hyatt hotel luxury car scam?
    It is left to wonder what David the Come-sing-a-song of Integrity has to say about this under-the-table move?

    Where is Caswell Franklyn the poor people’s Lone Ranger when you need him most to prosecute this dastardly act of blatant tax evasion in the Senate?

    PS: Have you noticed that your man “Enuff” is silent as a church mouse on this matter of ‘opaque’ transparency? Or has had ‘enuff’ of the exposure of double hypocrisy?


  24. @Hal A
    Yours @9.54 am

    I will leave others to comment on the “failed state”, but it reflects the political reality that some people keep pointing out as a “redwash”, but in effect could be done by a Gov’t with a simple majority. The appointment is an abuse of power which we have come to expect from successive Gov’ts.

    The whole system has been debased, but is valuable to those honored who revel in being addressed as Sir Muckety Muck and Lady Muckety Muck.

    Next man up? How about GWP? He has been around long enough


  25. @Miller

    There is still hope that MAM1 ‘arrested’ this matter with MAM2 as part of the ROSS closing.

    On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 8:13 PM Barbados Underground wrote:

    >


  26. David
    December 31, 2018 3:39 PM

    @John
    It was a high level comment. Yes we have to have a relevant action plan to attract FDI.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++

    But do you realise we have never had a plan?

    Perhaps “Foreign Investment”, was always money laundering.

    The difference now is that it leads to black listing and ministers getting arrested!!


  27. Politics as usual. It SUCKS!


  28. @ Lexicon
    George Lamming was merely giving us an historical context of how the Caribbean has evolved and how this plays out in the bigger scheme of things.
    Please try to avoid the intellectual bogus nit picking that some on this blog believe that they alone have mastered.

  29. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ David December 31, 2018 4:23 PM

    It would be interesting to find out who is backing (financially) the construction of the brand new roundabout at the entrance to the Coverly encampment for the Ross students.

    Is that roundabout being constructed (something that should have been done long time ago) with money from the CDB, the IADB, the IMF bailout or is it a PPP between MAM2 the raider of the poor man housing credit fund and the MAM1 administration?


  30. The plan – unsutainable though it was – under Arthur allowed unbridled investment on the West Coast.


  31. @Miller

    It is a massive investment that roundabout given the drill to rock and infrastructure work on the North side. One suspects the government ate the cost. This goes back to the government’s promise to be transparent with the public. What do we know about the deal with Ross and the development that has taken place to support? Before BLP apologist jump up and down to suggest the blogmaster is against the project, not so!


  32. Mia Mottley is admired in the Region for her sheer brilliance,scholarship and political savvy.Show the m’am a microphone and a TV camera and the audience is spellbound by her speaking skills without a prompt or a piece of paper.Tom Adams,known everywhere as the most devastating orator known to Politics Barbados,appears to have played a role in shaping and honing her style and delivery.Mia need to note Tom always spoke distinctly and pronounced his words correctly giving honour due to consonants,vowels and syllables.(somebody helping Verla with these issues)
    I doubt if she will spare a thought to titling Staurt who after all raised the political stakes when he hinted that Elliot got Mia to write of his TAXES.As is his wont at times OSA got careless and took the bait all in the quest to end Mia’s march to Government Headquarters Bay St.
    By the same token OSA would probably have to await another dispensation.
    One only has to recall the great interest shown in the appointment of an anglican bishop of Barbados to recognize the influence of that denomination in the life and witness of many Bajans.A retired clerk in holy orders who suffered some challenges in gaining entry into St John some years ago and who since suffered again this time around,the Peter principle,is stating that the laity has no place in the selection of the anglican bishop.Rubbish.Utter balderdash.The laity is the church not you hooded clowns who have proved yourselves to be expert at serving god and mammon.Nothing spiritual about you lot now exiting St John especially those wearing the yellow and gold like its a badge of honour.Dont you understand 30 love?Do you understand losing 312 boxes out of 314.
    That said,it should not escape the authorities that Rev John Holder was the first bajan in the near 200 years of the Anglicanism here to be named Archbishop of the West Indies heading the Church in the Province of the West Indies,with jurisdiction from the Bahamas to Guyana and all in between.
    Rev Fr John to John Barbados to John West Indies to Sir John of St John.Name him brothers, name him Sir John Holder.


  33. William Skinner

    What intellectual blog are you talking about?

    And an intellectual blog involves such questions: what is the nature of reality, is there life after death and is there an empirical basis for this assumption? is there an organizing principle in the universe? did the laws of nature proceeded the Big Bang? Without the temple, church or mosque, would there still be an universal standard of morality? Who created God, and does he have a beginning or an end?

    These are intellectual questions which causes one to think on a deeper level, then the mundane politics we often see here on BU day in and day out…

  34. Jeff Cumberbatch Avatar

    The Queen of England is also Queen of Canada and Queen of Barbados.

    Hal, Is she really? There is no royalty in Barbados. The executive authority of Barbados does reside in her, but that does not make her Queen of Barbados. There exists no such title in our Constitution or conventions!


  35. William Skinner

    Our human knowledge reaches an explanatory threshold, or it leads us into the area of metaphysics, when we endeavour through practical reasoning to think beyond periphery of what we have been taught concerning creation or existence of God.


  36. @Jeff

    Barbados is a Monarchy and that monarch is Queen Elizabeth the Second, who is also Queen of Canada, Queen of the UK and Queen of Australia and New Zealand.
    Are you saying those calling for a Republic are wasting their time? Explain the authority of the Governor General.


  37. “Leaders manage, change can be managed, leaders like change. Disruption cannot be managed. Leaders do not want disruption”

    REAL LEADERS KNOW that DISRUPTION to the norm is a necessity…..is INEVITABLE…

    you are yet to see REAL LEADERS IN BARBADOS.


  38. “whenever I thought of night hoods bajans always came to mind”

    “nighthoods”…just like “shitehoods” pretty much sums them all up.


  39. I thought the queen of barbados resided at a bar on 2nd street or has the theme changed. Speaking of second st I hope you all have a great all years night. Since coming to canada we always first footed our houses, one hogmanay tradition we were fearful of giving up and it has served us well even if its only the placibo effect. Tonight I will bring an extra piece of coal for the island hoping for peace and prosperity for you all and a rejuvenation of the place we all love. Hopefully you know I only play and joke with people I like…except you WAru………. just kidding.


  40. “Come on fellas, HM Lizzie is a nonagenarian about to meet her maker.”

    It’s obvious none of the brainwashed FOOLSin Barbados who love being treated like the mediocre negros that they are not for even one second thought that far ahead…they probably believe the old dying beast will live forever…just like the mentally challenged children that they are…and just as we expect.

    None of them even thought for one second what Charles may have in store for their backward asses……and that is in the very near future…


  41. “Hopefully you know I only play and joke with people I like…except you WAru………. just kidding.”

    ya just can’t help yaself…

    Take care tonight and do not buy any dogs while drunk, ya never know what ya will bring home…lol

  42. Jeff Cumberbatch Avatar

    Barbados is a Monarchy and that monarch is Queen Elizabeth the Second, who is also Queen of Canada, Queen of the UK and Queen of Australia and New Zealand
    Are you saying those calling for a Republic are wasting their time? Explain the authority of the Governor General

    Hal, you are merely begging the very question that we arte seeking to answer,

    What makes Barbados a monarchy?.

    We are nothing but a constitutional democratic republic headed by a foreign monarch,

    If we are indeed a monarchy as you assert, what is the constitutional line of succession to the Barbadian throne?

    And what people are calling for is not really a republic (look up the meaning); we already have that.

    They are clamoring instead for the nation’s executive authority to be vested in a local citizen-and not a foreign monarch


  43. David
    December 31, 2018 5:15 PM

    @Miller

    It is a massive investment that roundabout given the drill to rock and infrastructure work on the North side. One suspects the government ate the cost. This goes back to the government’s promise to be transparent with the public. What do we know about the deal with Ross and the development that has taken place to support? Before BLP apologist jump up and down to suggest the blogmaster is against the project, not so!

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    The higher the ticket price the more attractive the “investment” is to “foreign investors”.

    Did you not take note of GP’s comment on the disappearing off shore medical schools?

    Did you not take note of the possible sale of St. George’s offshore medical school in Grenada?

    https://www.reuters.com/article/stgeorgesuniversity-sale/historic-st-georges-university-explores-sale-sources-idUSL6N0CAFEF20130318

  44. de pedantic Dribbler Avatar
    de pedantic Dribbler

    David The Blogmaster…first up, continued success to you and your team for 2019 at this blog and in life generally….you guys have helped me to learn Bajan matters of which I otherwise would have been clueless (and to spend way too much time blogging) so stay super.

    Now help me here bro…let’s channel @Enuff and raise the level of discourse beyond the petty political partianship (I promise no more of these annoying alliterative attempts 😂 for 2019)…so seriously pls clarify/explain ur comment “You need also to accept [the] irrelevance of the awards as presently constituted”.

    Taking the politics out…how can it be irrelevant for let’s say COW to prance around the world at his business conferences or personal shindigs and have his moniker listed Sir Charles Williams …or for any big shot lawyer, educator etc?

    It is obvious and understandable that George Lamming would NOT accept such an accolade based on his voiceferous opposition to that type of colonial subjugation but for all those who are
    NOT progressive, nationalistic thinkers of his ilk and tow to the colonial lineage this life time achievement award IS the be all and end all of their life’s work.

    It’s irrelevance to the masses is also less clear than u make it out to be…

    So in the interest of high level debate 😀 pls clarify to whom exactly it’s irrelevant.

    And may I add that that is ONE (the highest if course) in a list of Bajan National orders …are you suggesting that top educators, athletes, business leaders and others who get a BSS or BSM (can’t recall the others) are also irrelevant?

    Remember let’s REMOVE the politics…or are you saying it’s impossible to do that so the whole thing is a sham?

    Peace and Goodwill.

  45. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ Lexicon December 31, 2018 5:28 PM
    “These are intellectual questions which causes one to think on a deeper level, then the mundane politics we often see here on BU day in and day out…”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Fenty Boy aka Dompey the dopy donkey, the miller must admit you have upped your game a bit since leaving your brown cherry behind the wall of station Hill.

    Of course there is “life after death”!

    Isn’t there Light after darkness or day after night?
    Isn’t that the fundamental principle of Christianity and many other religions?
    What’s the sense in believing in a god called Yahweh who makes you suffer in hell on earth in order to be enlightened through Jesus your saviour and to inherit heaven the kingdom of pure milk and genetically sweetened honey?

    Why must all humans believe in your Jewish construct of God?

    Is the failure to believe in your Jew god created in Ra Moses own image the reason for the disappearance of the Neanderthal, or the Cro-magnon or even the mummified remains of the Egyptians or even the Bajan brown-skin Arawaks or the Grenadian darker-skin Caribs?


  46. Don’t mind Enuff yardfowl…the real debate now should be why is Bizzy still being allowed to suck the taxpayers when he does NOT recycle any garbage but ONLY SHOVES ALL THAT FILTH in a very, very large warehouse in St. Thomas where it’s piled high…..and have a whole colony of EGRETS living in that dump……yet he collects millions in tax dollars a year..for not doing one shite…but pile up a MOUNTAIN of garbage instead of recycling ..

    ….and then he got a MOUNTAIN OF TYRES complete with a RIVER OF TYRE SLUDGE oozing DOWNWIND OF A VILLAGE that is leaching into the porous coral limestone…AND there are concerns that the water supply is ALREADY CONTAMINATED…

    BIZZY DOES NO RECYCLING…

    That is what yardfowls should be concerned about instead of on here talking shite.


  47. @David

    You do know that MAM1 (according to you) hands were tied……….MAM2 had a strangle hold on the former idiot for a housing minister so all like now no one knows who really owns Coverley. He practically gave away the taxpayers’ land and MM then sells our land as he sells each house…what the hell?

    I would hazzard a guess…….housing was needed for the Ross students……get them in there and then expose the corruption of that deal.

    Rumor has it that on the eve of the 2013 election, the houses were paid for using our NIS funds……..you know like how a lawyer was paid $5 million on the eve of the 2018 election!


  48. Jeff…ya really got patience..I am not that virtuous.


  49. @Prodigal Son

    MAM has been loud about calling players to the table to renegotiate deals. What makes the deal with MAM2, Coverly and the NHC any different?


  50. @J|eff,

    Barbados is a constitutional monarchy. You ask what is the line of succession? Simple, until the Barbados parliament votes to become a Republic, whoever succeeds Queen Elizabeth the Second will automatically become our Monarch. At present it looks as if that person is Prince Charles.
    Your assertion that Barbados is a constitutional democratic Republic headed by a foreign Monarch is, with the greatest of respect, gobbledegook. Please explain how a Republic – democratic or not – can be headed by a monarch (foreign or not)?
    What people are calling for is the removal of any reference to the authority of a Monarch in our constitution. In reality, the Monarchy has nothing to do with the government of Barbados, as s/he does not have anything to do with the government of the UK, apart from the signing of new Acts of Parliament and the opening and dissolution of Parliament, which are purely theatre.
    We have had this debate before on BU in regard of Gough Whitlam, the former prime minister of Australia who was removed by the governor general. Like most BU debates, we go round and round in circles..

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