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brotherskeptapartFellow blogger Weighed in the Balance has undertaken the ambitious and highly risky task of writing a book which as he terms it “is a comparative analysis of the Bible and the Qur’an, and it assumes that both books are correct.  If God is the principal author of each book, as Christians and Muslims claim, then a comparative analysis should reveal harmony between the principal teachings of both.  This is what I have found.  Hence, Christians and Muslims have been kept apart by their religious leaders who have taught their adherents that God has rejected the other group.” The topic matter was thought to be so contentious that he originally penned his book using a pseudonym.

Phillip’s book is titled Brothers Kept Apart and can be purchased on Amazon.com at a reasonable price. Some members of the BU family have already demonstrated that they are students of the religions. Brother Phillips advises that the book represents 30 years of research and 7 years of critical review and he stands ready to defend his thesis.

It is no secret that the BU household has demonstrated a keen interest in the religions or what some people disparagingly refer to as dogmas. It is a fascinating subject and one which is shrouded in mystery, allegories, parables, fables and some theology  Religion has been used through the ages to edify and destroy man’s existence. Of interest to all through the ages has been the cooption of  religion to pit Islam versus Christianity, East versus West by geo-political motivated groups.

For a synopsis of the book the BU family is welcomed to visit Phillips’s blog. We look forward to a fascinating discussion and take the opportunity to wish him every success.

What he has attempted demonstrates courage of conviction, a characteristic in scarce supply.

.


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1,124 responses to “The Bible And The Qur'an, Brothers Kept Apart”


  1. MME,

    define miracle?

    suspect my answer will be no.


  2. Grenville,

    getting anything out of you is like pulling teeth.

    Ok, lets accept your thesis.

    God revealed himself to Moses and the inspired the prophets, then sent down Jesus recorded in some writings and inspired more writings in the first and second century.

    Then an absence of a few hundred years a few more revelations to mohammed.

    All the same god.

    (there are very good historical reasons for the harmony of bible and qur’an but I am proceeding on your thesis).

    Two questions:

    What new was revealed for christians to mohammed?

    What was the purpose of this particular yet significant and rare divine intervention?

    (contrast with what jesus brought to judaism)

    Secondly,

    If the book of mormon is also in harmony with the bible (which I suspect a few million morons, oops mormons will attest), following your logic, is this not another revelation?


  3. Micro Mock Engineer

    Do YOU believe in miracles? More interestingly, have you witnessed/experienced first hand a miracle?


  4. Wow!

  5. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Not Saved,

    I am happy with Hume’s definition…

    A miracle is a violation of the known laws of nature.

    … or to tie it down further, an event that is not governed by any laws of nature or physics (known or unknown).


  6. MME

    “I am happy with Hume’s definition… A miracle is a violation of the known laws of nature.”

    You see, according to the christian definition, only god can perform miracles… but I put it to them that miracles happen everyday and in places where they don’t believe in their god.

    To take this to another level of reasoning, can we consider this to be a human capacity to manipulate the environment and even people? Is it a subconscious communication with things and people? Is it a level of energy?

    The final question is, would it be all the above?

    The other consideration arising from Hume’s definition is that a set of this happen (whether or not coincidentally or accidentally) to cause a specific outcome that was not intended or was not to happen?

    I think that the “known Laws of Nature” has its limitations and that miracles may not be a violation of the “Laws of Nature”; just that they are not yet known.

    While I understand BT in saying come out of the bible, there are some things in the bible which amounts to knowledge from a greater intelligence about the powers of man.

    For example, “Seek and ye shall find” and “Knock and it shall be opened”. I am trying to pursue the theory that man can manipulate his environment not only with his hands but with his mind.


  7. “The other consideration arising from Hume’s definition is that a set of this happen (whether or not coincidentally or accidentally)”

    That should read: The other consideration arising from Hume’s definition is that a set of events happens (whether or not coincidentally or accidentally)


  8. MME,

    Your narrow version is quite different to Hume.

    On the latter narrower version, the answer would have to be no, in the sense you seem to ask if I believe that something that cannot happen, could in fact happen.

    I am not sure where you are going with this question, let me make a guess.

    If a god does exist, it would seem it must necessarily exist outside our known space and time (or our natural scientific inquiry would reveal it) and this begs the question does the god intervene in our space and time.

    To a theologian the answer is obvious. To others less so but obvious in the negative.

    It then still invites the further inquiry; whether intervention is via natural constraints (know and unknown) or perhaps what you ask, via something that cannot happen, that now can happen (miracle?!)


  9. (insert)
    …..more obvious in the negative


  10. Hi Not Saved:

    Thank you for your questions. In response:

    1. The Qur’an teaches Christians to simply follow what God has already revealed to them in the Bible. That is it. Just to clarify – the Qur’an does not require Christians to read the Qur’an.

    2. I have not read the book of Mormon. Therefore, my speculative opinion would have a relatively low value.

    Regards,
    Grenville

  11. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Not Saved,

    This is where I was going…

    I like many other scientists believe that time, matter and the laws of nature (or physics) were created with the Big Bang (at t=0 or the singularity) out of nothing. This is also the view of many Judeo-Christian based faiths… creation ex nihilo. It establishes a common ground if you like, between many scientists and Christians.… and, even though the concept is still debated in both groups, it is noteworthy that no other non-Judeo-Christian religious world-view, ancient or modern, (as far as I am aware) supports this concept. It is also noteworthy that, as I mentioned previously, the Big Bang theory itself was the brainchild of a Christian priest/scientist (Lemaitre).

    So I believe the universe, time, matter and the laws of nature had a beginning at t=0, and I believe that these had a cause which by deduction could not be governed by the very laws it created… further, that cause would also have to be non-material (or spiritual) since it created matter.

    Getting back to my latter definition of miracles, yes, I do believe they are possible.


  12. Yes I know christians who think this way.

    Hopefully one day we will learn more about t=0

    It is one thing to believe in a cause (why not quantum fluctuation?) but then its a long long road to believing a collection of 1st and 2nd century writing (the NT) is the work of the same prime mover.


  13. I believe the muslims also claim the qur’an describes the big bang :

    From the wiki:

    “The Qur’an referenced the heavens and earth as originally being an integrated mass before God split them “Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them” [21:30], which has been interpreted by some as being “nothing short of a condensed version of the Big bang theory”.[1]”


  14. Grenville,

    You dodge questions better than Ali dodged punches.

    What was the point of this rare revelation by god to mohammed?

    Why not let christians continue to spread the christian gospel without this intervention (which seems to rather been a major blunder)

    A revelation to tell christians to read the bible? what is the point?

    And my second question.

    I did not need you to read the book of mormon. I asked, IF harmony with the bible is found can we apply YOUR logic to conclude that it is another revelation from god.

    If not, why not.

    Why can we can apply the logic to the qur’an and not to the book of mormon?


  15. MME,
    Per your question about believing in miracles… I either accept or not accept a theory based on evidence or lack of evidence.

    So to answer your question, unless you have some evidence for a SINGLE CASE of any supernatural event, then I will say “No” I do not “believe” in miracles. But I’m willing to re-visit this if you have any evidence MME.

    Thanks bro


  16. MME

    “I like many other scientists believe that time, matter and the laws of nature (or physics) were created with the Big Bang (at t=0 or the singularity) out of nothing.”

    I have a big problem here. Maybe you can assist me. When I think of the big bang theory, I am reminded of an egg which is fertilized; an embryo grows and then burst through its shell. Maybe the big bang started when the sperm hit its target.

    A being is born and keeps expanding to maturity, however, the being could not have been said to be born out of nothing. It takes in from its environment and expands.

    You say that you believe that matter was created at the time of the big bang. If I were to take my scenario to its logical conclusion, it would mean that the matter which started the big bang was already created and came from an environment where there is a high probability that other big bangs took place and are still taking place.

    What would be the difficulty in assuming that the matter was already created at the time of big bang in the form of a ball of energy or compressed matter and it merely unfolded? Could there have been a big bang without matter causing it? Maybe it even takes in from its external environment as it grows/expands?


  17. ROK:

    That’s a scenario which has always intrigued me.

    Is it human arrogance or simply “island mentality” that makes us believe this universe is unique?

    If one big bang, why not two?

    And taking it further why not an infinite number of separate universes co-existing millimetres apart?

    Brane theory likens these to infinitely long streamers, rippling in the ether.
    Others see us bubbles in an ocean of foam.

    It’s also proposed that the big bangs occur when two of these universes touch, and matter is transferred between them.

    Quantum Electro-Dynamics has perversely made the theory of everything massively more difficult to understand in it’s quest to simplify.

    Check out BBC’s Parallel Universes on Google Video.


  18. Straight Talk

    “And taking it further why not an infinite number of separate universes co-existing millimetres apart?”

    This universe as we call it may very well be an entity living in an environment with other entities as we live in an environment with other entities (maybe a tree).

    I am not sticking to millimetres apart, the space apart may be infinite too because I will assume that the entity does not live in overpopulated conditions.

    The most fascinating thing is the amount of communication going on within the body which is coordinated by the brain; fighting unwanted diseases, healing, the senses, and all kinds of intelligence going on over which we have no control or very little control but are the beneficiaries.

    Maybe the brain is the God lording over the rest of the body? It tells the rest of the body to obey it blindly? But then the God gets defeated and was created.

    Maybe we should stick to reasoning about the nature of the universe.


  19. When I read the majority of the posts on this thread I am reminded of the truths of of 2 Timothy 4:3-4, which states
    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    In these verses Paul predicted that there would come a time when people would not tolerate the truth of God’s word, but would only listen to speakers who told them what they wanted to hear (false doctrine, entertainment, etc.). In other words, they would make themselves the measure of who should teach them and what teaching is acceptable. In addition, they would choose to believe myths rather than the truth (e.g., evolution, humanism, reincarnation, etc.; cf. 1 Tim. 1:4; 4:7; Titus 1:14).

    It is so very clear that that time has come.


  20. Anon

    “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”

    This aptly describes Christians and the Bible.


  21. Some of those who have posted here show a great ognorance of what the Bible teaches about the Lord Jesus Christ – the hero of the Bible.

    Here are a few thoughts from 2 TIMOTHY alone.

    In 2 Timothy 1:1 the Lord Jesus Christ is OUR PROMISE OF LIFE. This verse reads
    Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus.

    How do you accept a promise? You do it by faith. That is the only way you can obtain eternal life. He offers it to you as a gift. You accept a gift because you believe the giver. You receive eternal life by believing in the Giver. The Lord Jesus gives you eternal life when you trust Him as Savior because He paid the penalty of your sin. He today can offer you heaven on the basis of your faith and trust in Him. When you believe Him and come His way, you honor Him. Therefore “the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus” makes it clear that through Christ is the only way you can get eternal life, my friend.

    The apostle said his calling as an apostle was “according to” (i.e., “because of,” or
    “in harmony with,” or both) “the promise of life in Christ Jesus” (v. 1).

    This promise is part of the gospel message. Paul considered ‘life’ (eternal) as something yet to be fully obtained—thus the reference to a promise (compare 1 Tim 6:19) Paul was counting on God being faithful and providing what He had promised, namely, eternal life in Christ. God had called him to proclaim this promise as an apostle.

    In 2 Timothy 1:2 Paul emphasizes the lordship of Jesus Christ when he writes “To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

    He also teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ is the source of grace, mercy and truth.

    In 2 Timothy 1:9 Paul stresses that the Lord Jesus Christ is our Savior when he writes “ Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

    He points out that Christ saved us, and called us with an holy calling”—not because of who we are or what we have done—“not according to our works.”

    But —“According to his own purpose and grace.” God’s wonderful purpose in the gospel was hidden in ages past but is now revealed through Paul. It had been a mystery in the Old Testament, an unrevealed secret, but is now revealed in the New Testament. All along God had this planned for us. In other words God was not caught napping when our forefathers sinned in the garden of Eden. Before the world began he had planned that Jesus would be the redeemer and Savior of fallen sinful men.

    In 2 Timothy 1:10 we have the truth of Jesus’ incarnation in the words “But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ.”

    We also have the truth that Christ “hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

    The phrase “Who hath abolished death” is literally since He has made of none effect death. Death means something altogether different to the child of God—Christ made it of no effect. Now, God did not eliminate death. Paul is not talking about physical death. He means spiritual death, eternal death, which is separation from God. Christ has indeed abolished spiritual death so that no sinner need go to a place where he’ll be eternally separated from God.

    2 Timothy 2:7-8 Teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ is to be remembered. 2 Timothy 2:7-8 reads…. Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel

    In this verse Paul enjoins us to “Remember Jesus Christ.” the word that is not in the original but was supplied by the translators. What are we to remember about Him? We are first to remember that He’s of the seed of David. That means He’s going to sit on David’s throne down here. Secondly, we are to remember that He was raised from the dead, “according to the gospel” as taught by Paul in I Corinthians 15.
    “The perfect tense of the participle for ‘raised’ suggests that Paul was stressing the result of Christ’s resurrection, the demonstration of his lordship (Rom 1:4), rather than the
    fact of the resurrection. . . .
    “Second, the mention that Christ ‘descended from David’ shows that Christ has messianic qualifications and is the heir to the glorious promises of God for David. . . .
    “The memory of Christ cloaked with resurrection power and messianic dignity is an inspiration for Christian service.”
    “The Davidic Messiah who suffered and was raised from the dead is the very essence of Paul’s gospel.”

    2 Timothy 4:1 Teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ is coming again to judge both the quick and the dead and set up His kingdom.

    2 Timothy 4:1 reads thus I charge thee therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom.

    In this verse Paul reminds Timothy, and us, that on his return at the rapture Jesus Christ will judge Christians at the judgment seat of Christ and then appear again at the Second Coming (cf. 1:10) and set up His millennial kingdom on the earth; after which the dead will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement.

    Bearing this in mind, Timothy should prepare to meet Him by carrying out the terms of the great commission by heralding the Word of God (v. 2) and faithfully carry out the ministry that God had given him (v. 5).

    Paul is pointing out to Timothy that in the same way that when, in his day, the Emperor was due to visit any place, that everything was put in perfect order and the streets were swept and garnished and all work was up-to-date, so too Timothy, and we, as we expect the epiphaneia of Jesus Christ, our work should be done in such a way
    that all things will be ready whenever He appears..

    Who shall judge the quick and the dead” the living and the dead.
    “At his appearing and his kingdom.” Christ’s appearing and His kingdom are not the same thing. His appearing is the epiphany, the Rapture of the church. His kingdom refers to the revelation of Christ when He returns to earth to establish His kingdom. Twice He will do some judging. He will judge His own when He takes them out of the world. Also, He will judge those who turn to God in the Great Tribulation. All of us who are believers will come before Him for judgment at one time or another. Our lives are going to be tested to see if we are to receive a reward or not.


  22. Anon

    “How do you accept a promise? You do it by faith. That is the only way you can obtain eternal life. He offers it to you as a gift.”

    Utter tripe! How can a mortal offer a gift of life? That kind of thinking is very typical of politicians, the same mentality. Some one offers you money and you believe that you can get away with it you take it and give them what they want. A mere promise; the tools of a politician.

    You blindly accept some illogical promise and then go on to say, “You receive eternal life by believing in the Giver.” What proof do you have. You cannot say that Jesus gives you eternal life. For you to tell me that you would have to be a fibber. YOU DO NOT KNOW. YOU HAVE NO PROOF.

    So believe if you like but don’t tell me no foolishness about Jesus giving eternal life; tell me that is what you believe. It is not a fact known to man and certainly not known to you.


  23. Anon

    “All of us who are believers will come before Him for judgment at one time or another.

    YOU HAVE NO PROOF OF THAT TELL ME THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT.

    “He will judge His own when He takes them out of the world.”

    YOU HAVE NO PROOF OF THAT TELL ME THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT.

    “Also, He will judge those who turn to God in the Great Tribulation.”

    YOU HAVE NO PROOF OF THAT TELL ME THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT.

    ““Second, the mention that Christ ‘descended from David’ shows that Christ has messianic qualifications and is the heir to the glorious promises of God for David. . . .”

    WHAT IS THIS? THE ONLY THING THAT PROVES IS THAT CHRIST WAS A MORTAL AS DAVID (THE MAN) WAS. NOTHING MESSIANIC ABOUT THAT; ONLY IF MESSIANIC MEANS ROYAL.

    You sound just like GP, Carlos, Simple Enough, Dictionary and the host of them that GP make up. What happen, you run out of names?


  24. Anon, you can take that long post full of quotes from the death cult manual that is the bible and replace it with this quote:

    “Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” – Mark Twain

  25. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “I believe the muslims also claim the qur’an describes the big bang” – Not Saved

    Of course they do… perhaps I should have used the term Judeo-Christo-Islamic or simply Abrahamic religion instead.

    “why not quantum fluctuation?” – Not Saved

    “This universe as we call it may very well be an entity living in an environment with other entities as we live in an environment with other entities (maybe a tree)” – ROK

    “And taking it further why not an infinite number of separate universes co-existing millimetres apart?” – Straight Talk

    LOL… fellas… I don’t have that much faith, but I admire yours. As far as untested scientific hypotheses go though, to me the most compelling and elegant is the Hartle-Hawking no-boundary condition… brane cosmology and chaotic inflation are equally interesting, but for me, require a bit more faith 🙂

    “its a long long road to believing a collection of 1st and 2nd century writing (the NT) is the work of the same prime mover.” – Not Saved

    Come on Not Saved… one issue at a time… are we in agreement on the existence of a non-material cause of the universe?

    On an earlier question… can anyone identify any non-Abrahmaic religions / world views that support the view that the universe had a beginning (i.e. it has a finite age) and was created out of nothing?


  26. MME

    What makes the existence of a non-material cause of the universe so plausible? Have you been able to work out how matter can be created?

    I may be coming from an archaic scientific perspective but I am going on the notion that matter cannot be created nor destroyed. Is that a myth?


  27. On the question of ‘miracles’ do they happen? Most certainly yes! From the very Apostolic era, right down to this very day!

    Miracles have occurred right here in B’dos, absolutely nothing for Almighty God, in Christ Jesus to do; why He does not perform them more frequently, that’s His absolutle soveriegnty, to do, or not to do! As He said;

    “For My thoughts are not your thoughts. Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isa. 55: 8-9).

    I have seen on a number of occasions, on TV, a big, strong, Black Haitian Christian giving his testimony. His family were Christians, very poor, his Father went out fishing and hunting for food for a number of days, and this man, when he was a little boy, became very ill, he died, when the father returned, he saw this little coffin where his little boy lay dead, and decomposing. The father said ‘NO, when he was in his mothers womb, the Lord told him, that son in your wife’s womb, will be a great evangelist’ So the father by ‘Faith’ in God promise to him, put his hands on the coffin, and prayed in Jesus Name, miraculously, the little dead body, came alive, and today, is a living testimony the Almighty God’s power to raise the dead.

    I personally a few years ago, here in B’dos, met a Medical Doctor from one of the South American countries, a specialist in MS, he gave his testimony at church one Sunday morning. He went on a fishing trip in a jungle area, drank some extremely contaminated water from a river, which destroyed both of his kidneys; when his medical colleagues did all of the test, they said to him, you are as good as dead. He discharged himself from the hospital to be alone, He said to Jesus,I’ve only heard about you, if you are real, manifest yourself to me, and I’ll give you my life and follow you; he said, the Lord appeared in his room, he felt warm hands touch his lower back, instantly all the pain left his body, he passed perfectly clear water, and was completely healed by Jesus Christ.

    When his colleagues at the Hospital saw him nextr day, they were absolutely amazed, text revealed he had two perfect kidneys, today that many a former Hindu travels the world preaching the Gospel of Christ, winning many to faith in Jesus.

    Only a few weeks ago I listened to another amazing testimony, a relatively young married woman in the States, wanted children, but could not get pregnant, her Gyno actually said that her reproductive organs were in a mess, and had to be removed, a radical hysterectomy was done. As a Christian, she allowed an anointed man of God to pray for her; she felt a strange sensation in her female area, but thought nothing of it. Many weeks after she went to her Gyno for a check up, to see how she was doing after her surgery. The Gyno, in utter amazement, said, ‘I removed your womb, overies, etc, weeks ago, BUT now, I examine you, you have a complete new womb with everything working perfectly…and you are ALSO six weeks pregnant…”

    These types of miracles happen all the time, BUT, the secular media are not interested in them.

    Many Hindu’s and Muslims are being healed in their countries, at crusades conducted by Christians, none of them are ever healed in Allah or Muhammed’s name, only in Jesus Name; for, HE, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and FOREVER.”
    (Heb. 13: 8).

    Naturally, the non-believers will scoff at this, that’s their choice, as no amount of evidence will convince them otherwise!


  28. come on ROK.

    Everyone knows that there is a direct interchangeability between matter and energy.

    …one does not have to be an Einstein…


  29. Reality is synonymous with Truth; and Truth is unyielding. One can choose to ignore it, scorn and scoof at it, even curse it, BUT, all to no avail; in the end, Truth impassively stands its ground in the face of the most overpowering emotional, verbal, and rediculous onslaughts.

    Further, Truth can be especially brutal to those who insist on worshipping at the Altar of theory and ignorance. This is because Truth has a way of frustrating theory, folly, and ignorance, and, much like a mongoose circling a snake, ultimately wearing it down and devouring it.


  30. Zoe // May 9, 2009 at 8:54 pm

    This whole post is nonsense. Where is the evidence? Where are the verified reports in the medical journals? Seems like scams by Christians to me.

    I never read any of this in the Lancet nor Science. cheupse. You have to be cuckoo to believe this crap.

  31. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “Everyone knows that there is a direct interchangeability between matter and energy.”
    ————–

    LOL BT… almost everyone.

    ROK… like many scientists, I believe that matter (and antimatter) as well as the laws of physics (including the one about matter not being created or destroyed) and time itself were created in the Big Bang.

    In the beginning (t=0), equal quantities of matter and antimatter were created from ‘pure’ energy… lets call them B mesons and anti-B mesons. When these B mesons and anti-B mesons meet, they annihilate creating high energy photons (gamma rays). The universe is ‘matter-biased’ i.e. we have more matter than anti-matter in the universe, because the latter has a faster decay rate.

    Unfortunately there is no observational capability beyond the Big Bang, so all scientific and philosophical debates/positions on pre-Big Bang events will always be faith based… but some positions (like those of Not Saved and Straight Talk) require more faith than others… and some people (like Rohan) choose not to have any position at all. LOL


  32. Zoe is such a blasted LIAR……you really think you can bring this shit to BU and get away with it??

    Where is this documented?


  33. A decomposing body brought back to life…..WTF !!

    I want proof!!


  34. Zoe

    I see you like nuff fishing.


  35. BT

    I am not in disagreement. I am trying to find out where MME is coming from. I am proposing that at the point of big bang, nothing was created. It was all there already.


  36. Zoe

    “Reality is synonymous with Truth; and Truth is unyielding.”

    I agree. So wake up! You in a dreamland. Reality flying past you hard.


  37. A provocative discussion going. Hope posters can examine MME’s argument (i.e. the universe has a starting point and so there must be a non material force that put every thing in motion). ROK and Straight talk have suggested alternative models. So some questions:

    Is it a “fact” that the universe had a starting point? Is this just a speculative view given the observations/knowledge we have at present? I have read about multiple universes (see Hugh Everett) but I admit not understanding much of what is postulated!!

    Is it possible that the Big Bang “theory” and Abrahamic religions concur on this issue because these are both western viewpoints? If say India had been in the position of power and influence instead of Europe would we be arguing about a model of the universe more in tune with Hindu beliefs?


  38. MME

    “On an earlier question… can anyone identify any non-Abrahmaic religions / world views that support the view that the universe had a beginning (i.e. it has a finite age) and was created out of nothing?”

    Now hold on there. There are two components here:
    1. The universe had a beginning;
    2. It was created out of nothing.

    These are two separate questions. I prefer to ask the question, “which came first, the chicken or the egg?” I contend that a beginning, if started with big bang could have been with matter already created.

    I put it to you that the notion of no-matter prior to the creation of the universe is an assumption. I also put it to you that at the point of the big bang explosion, t=0 has nothing to do with matter.

    Actually, t=0 is a mere convenient value designating the start of this process and it may be assumed that there was a time when t=-1, just as the 1stCentury AD (0-100) assumes that there was a last Century BC (100-0) and while BC may be assigned a negative value for convenience, 100BC to zero BC was still 100 years; no negative there.

    Hence what we are doing is assigning an arbitrary start to the universe, regardless of the time that events started that led to the bang or caused the bang? What existed to cause the bang? “something” exploded, otherwise we would have to say that “nothing” exploded; in which case, the universe should not be here.

    Give me your reasoning.


  39. MME

    I got your post in my inbox before I see it here on the blog. I still ain’t see it yet. Anyhow, you wrote:

    “In the beginning (t=0), equal quantities of matter and antimatter were created from ‘pure’ energy… lets call them B mesons and anti-B mesons. When these B mesons and anti-B mesons meet, they annihilate creating high energy photons (gamma rays). The universe is ‘matter-biased’ i.e. we have more matter than anti-matter in the universe, because the latter has a faster decay rate.”

    Am I to believe that B-mesons and Anti-B-mesons are assumptions? I also want to put it to you that anti-matter is also an assumption. Is there proof that anti-matter exists? How is this defined?

    If however, you agree that matter and anti-matter were transformed from energy, then are you not admitting that what created the universe was there before the bang and that it is out of this existence that the bang became a reality; with a starting point, t=o?

  40. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “I also want to put it to you that anti-matter is also an assumption. Is there proof that anti-matter exists? How is this defined?”
    ——

    Of course antimatter exists… how else would those aliens you believe in propel their starships? LOL… but seriously, google “antimatter”… we have been observing it since 1955… also google “Segrè and Chamberlain”.

    The notion of no matter at t=0 is an assumption, but it is a necessary assumption if you support the Big Bang theory… in fact, based on the theory, it can be deduced that matter came into existence at around t=10^-6 seconds (and a temperature of around 10^13 K).

    Matter cannot exist at the energy level and temperature implicit in the Big Bang theory (lookup the grand unification epoch and note the times and temperatures… also lookup the binding energy of quarks).

    When this knowledge is combined with the second law of thermodynamics, it supports the view of a beginning comprised of pure ‘useful’ energy at t=0 which has been steadily degrading to ‘useless’ energy (or entropy) ever since.

    Anyone find examples of non-Abrahamic religions that posit an absolute beginning to the universe?

  41. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “Is it possible that the Big Bang “theory” and Abrahamic religions concur on this issue because these are both western viewpoints?”
    ——

    Yes Deng… further, modern science is fundamentally a product of Abrahamic religions. 🙂

  42. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Scientists who deride Abrahmic religions for their monotheistic faith are like dogs who bite the hands that feed them. 🙂


  43. @ROK
    You are a difficult man to argue with – mainly because you create your own rules, which you then apply to others without their consent …and sometimes even their knowledge…ROTFL

    You therefore should define terms that you plan to use so that we can all speak the same language….

    Case in point:

    What do you understand by ‘CREATE’?

    Would you agree for example that I just CREATED a blog post?

    If there was no universe, and then somehow a source of great power caused a ‘big bang’ which converted huge amounts of energy into matter (and anti-matter), why would you have a problem agreeing that this would represent the creation of a physical universe?

    I think that you sometimes place to much import on such semantics …

    ….speaking of which, could you please (sometime) tell us exactly who is the ‘God of the bible?’ of whom you regularly speak?


  44. Modern science is a product INITIALLY of mainly western scientists whose religious traditions were Abrahamic. I would expect that as they pondered various problems, their initial model/hypothesis would be drawn from the philosophies in which they brought up. What I would be interested in learning about would be the extent to which current scientific viewpoints deviate from those starting points. e.g the Ptolemaic view: sun and the stars go around the earth; modern view: everything in motion (earth orbiting the sun etc).

    Is their universal consensus in the scientific community that there was a “Big Bang” and hence a starting point? I think not and furthermore we may be in a time of new explanations in cosmology. I may be wrong given that I am not versed in this field (ok in any field…LOL).


  45. Is THERE universal consensus … sheesh must be tired!


  46. BT

    “If there was no universe, and then somehow a source of great power caused a ‘big bang’ which converted huge amounts of energy into matter (and anti-matter), why would you have a problem agreeing that this would represent the creation of a physical universe?”

    Man you too far off. I don’t know where you coming from, but I don’t have a problem agreeing with that. All I am saying is that the point of the creation of this universe, if we starting from Big Bang, is not the point at which matter (including energy) came into existence.

    When we say that matter is not created or destroyed, are we not including energy in the equation? Changing from one state to another. My point is, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Matter vs energy?

    I am not sure how semantics get in and why that is so hard to follow.


  47. Also aren’t we forgetting the contribution of ancient Greeks, Egyptians, North Africans, Babylonians and Indians to the development of Mathematics without which this scientific development could not have taken place? (e.g the Hindu-Arabic numeral system which we use today).

    Democritus (460 – 370 BC) presented a distinctly modern view of the nature of the universe consisting of atoms in constant motion and traveling in a void.
    At the time of Democritus it was believed that the void was a property of matter. He actually argued against this view but what is of interest is that this idea reappears in Einstein’s relativistic physics!


  48. MME

    “The notion of no matter at t=0 is an assumption…”

    THANK YOU.

    However necessary you may think this assumption to be, the point is, it is an assumption.

    Next thing: “in fact, based on the theory, it can be deduced that matter came into existence at around t=10^-6 seconds (and a temperature of around 10^13 K).”

    Question: based on the theory, where did the energy come from?

    So, you use an assumption to calculate the point at which matter came into existence? Really and truly, you know this is an unknown. Admission that it is an assumption, means that it is an unknown, not so?

    I am not familiar with the advances in what is known in anti-matter, will google it as you suggest. However, I hope that this is not a way of explaining the unknown within the boundaries of what is known to science. You know that is dangerous. According to scientist of yesterday, any man exceeding the speed of 30 mph would burn alive.


  49. MME

    I think that Deng Xiaping may have a point. I am seeing science almost behaving like Christians when it gets to the unknown; you make assumptions and posit them as the truth, because the equation works out as you would want it, but why else is there dependence on an assumption except for that purpose; rather than the truth?

    I do not believe that it is necessary to assume that there was no matter before big bang for big bang to be the accepted explanation for the beginning of the universe. Like the Christians you want to unlink the linkable and chain it to something else for convenience?


  50. BT

    “you create your own rules, which you then apply to others without their consent …and sometimes even their knowledge…”

    You have to understand that I ain’t just come town, I have been living with this information fo0r more than 30 years, it is part of who I am not just some figment of my imagination.

    I think you got the cart before the horse. When a Christian says to me “Creator” and he means his god, he has assumed a truth that is incorrect. He has invaded me because when I say Creator, I don’t mean his god, but the kidnap and own the word.

    Second, They have determined a meaning for atheism which means a person that does not believe in God. However, the problem is that atheist do not believe in the Christian God. They seek to use the word Atheist as a weapon to stigmatise whoever don’t believe in their god. They care nothing about the science that the atheist employs.

    Third: is the definition of god. Over the years I am beginning to see the word “god” as a title; like king; but not anybody with supernatural powers and certainly not the Creator.

    There are more, but these are all meanings imposed on the subconscious mind; designed to support and propagate Christianity to make it universal in its application by association with language. So you lose your argument before you can articulate or reason and then you get tied up because of all these connotations and innuendos attached to words.

    So we speaking the same words but with different meanings and then as GP say, all hell brek loose. Is like the tower of Babel; different tongues; can’t understand one another because the language is so loaded.

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