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The Bible And The Qur'an, Brothers Kept Apart

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brotherskeptapartFellow blogger Weighed in the Balance has undertaken the ambitious and highly risky task of writing a book which as he terms it “is a comparative analysis of the Bible and the Qur’an, and it assumes that both books are correct.  If God is the principal author of each book, as Christians and Muslims claim, then a comparative analysis should reveal harmony between the principal teachings of both.  This is what I have found.  Hence, Christians and Muslims have been kept apart by their religious leaders who have taught their adherents that God has rejected the other group.” The topic matter was thought to be so contentious that he originally penned his book using a pseudonym.

Phillip’s book is titled Brothers Kept Apart and can be purchased on Amazon.com at a reasonable price. Some members of the BU family have already demonstrated that they are students of the religions. Brother Phillips advises that the book represents 30 years of research and 7 years of critical review and he stands ready to defend his thesis.

It is no secret that the BU household has demonstrated a keen interest in the religions or what some people disparagingly refer to as dogmas. It is a fascinating subject and one which is shrouded in mystery, allegories, parables, fables and some theology  Religion has been used through the ages to edify and destroy man’s existence. Of interest to all through the ages has been the cooption of  religion to pit Islam versus Christianity, East versus West by geo-political motivated groups.

For a synopsis of the book the BU family is welcomed to visit Phillips’s blog. We look forward to a fascinating discussion and take the opportunity to wish him every success.

What he has attempted demonstrates courage of conviction, a characteristic in scarce supply.

.

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1,124 responses to “The Bible And The Qur'an, Brothers Kept Apart”

  1. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Deng,

    The Ptolemaic view of the universe was not a Christian creation, it was created by Greek pagan astronomer Ptolemy. Christians (like everyone else at the time) accepted it for a period because it seemed to make sense… in fact it still makes a little sense today… how else would you explain the weather woman coming on my TV every night talking about sunrise and sunset times. Sun rise indeed! LOL

    Christians, like everyone else resist change, but how many other religions occasionally admit that their interpretation of their scripture may have been incorrect? As an example of the type of self-examination that takes place within Christianity, here is what Pope Urban VIII said at the time about Galileo’s theory…

    “if there were a real proof…that the sun does not go round the earth but the earth round the sun, then we should have to proceed with great circumspection in explaining passages of scripture which appear to teach the contrary, and rather admit that we did not understand them than declare an opinion to be false which is proved to be true.”

    … any wonder then why science and the age of enlightenment flourished in the Western world?

  2. Rok Avatar
    Rok

    Looks like the discussion is veering into an interesting scientific discussion.

    Just a reminder christians, you can’t fill the gaps in our scientific understanding with a God who is full of gaps him/herself.

  3. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Oh shoot..lol that last post was by me, but I typed Rok’s name in by mistake.

    Looks like the discussion is veering into an interesting scientific discussion.

    “Just a reminder christians, you can’t fill the gaps in our scientific understanding with a God who is full of gaps him/herself.”

  4. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “I am seeing science almost behaving like Christians when it gets to the unknown; you make assumptions and posit them as the truth, because the equation works out as you would want it”
    —————–

    LOL Rok… posit them as truth?

    Sorry if you got that impression. Everything I posit here is nothing more than an opinion and theory… as far as scientists behaving like Christians… good observation. 🙂

    Your knowledge and grasp of science is obviously superior to mine. All I have done is reviewed some of the current theories (or assumptions) and selected a few that I think are best supported by the evidence… in my opinion. As far as where the energy came from at t=0, my opinion is that (just like time, matter, laws of physics etc.) it came from the Big Boss.

    I have already pointed out that theories/philosophies about events before the Big Bang (presuming you subscribe to the Big Bang theory that is) are not observable or testable, and therefore will always be matters of faith or assumption. If you believe the evidence for alien invasions, Niburu and a universe without beginning is compelling, then ignore my rants. 🙂

    You should fully develop your theory and publish it… Hopi could write the foreword. Who knows… you might even sell more books than Grenville LOL

  5. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Christians, this is what ZOE just wrote:

    “This woman couldn’t get pregnant and had her womb removed. Then her womb miraculous came back after prayer, and she found out she was 6 weeks pregnant.”

    Zoe you are either a liar (to make this story up) or a Fool (for believing it).

    Here you go Christians, I present to you Zoe: a perfect example of how brainwashed your followers are.

    So Zoe’s fellow christians, do you believe this story? And why would somebody recite this ridiculous story as fact unless they were thoroughly brainwashed?

  6. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Seriously, brainwashed christians, as far as prayer goes, is there any evidence that prayer works?

    Of course not, and to the contrary you have the largest study on the power of prayer where prayer did nothing to help people who were recovering from surgery.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12082681/

    Seriously brainwashed christians, didn’t Jesus say “If you have the faith of a mustard seed, you can say to that mountain, MOVE, and it will move.”

    Well, I would give my life-savings to any one of you who could pray to have a PENCIL move. Yup, a pencil.

    So you haven’t been able to pray to make a pencil move all your life, but you think that you can pray for something much bigger like getting a job.

    Then when you do happen to get a job you say, “See, prayer works!”

    Seriously, if you guys would take 30 seconds to think you would see how laughable this stuff is.

    Utterly laughable!

  7. David Avatar
    David

    Of relevance is the most recent statement (yesterday) by the Pope on his visit to Jordan regarding the manipulation of the world’s two largest religions.

     

    Pope warns against ‘misuse’ of religion
    Saturday, 9 May 2009

    Pope Benedict XVI has urged Christians and Muslims to jointly defend religion from political manipulation.

    Speaking at the modern King Hussein bin Talal Mosque in Amman, he struck a note of harmony and shared purpose between the world’s two largest religions, continuing a main theme of his trip to the Middle East.

    ‘I firmly believe Christians and Muslims can embrace (the task of cooperation) particularly through our respective contributions to learning and scholarship, and public service,’ he told Islamic leaders and diplomats at the mosque.
    Advertisement

    Addressing the Pope, Prince Ghazi bin Muhammad bin Talal, reminded the him of the ‘hurt’ Muslims around the world felt in 2006 after the Pontiff quoted a Byzantine emperor who said Islam was irrational and violent.

    In one section of his address at the mosque, Benedict referred to God as ‘merciful and compassionate’, using the formula Muslims use when speaking of God.

    He said while no-one could deny a history of tensions and divisions, Christians and Muslims should prevent ‘the manipulation of religion, sometimes for political ends’.

    Pope Benedict will stay in Jordan until Monday, when he moves on to Israel.

  8. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Let’s break it down a little more:

    Per Jesus, if you have the faith of a mustard seed, you can move mountains.

    Evidence:
    No one on earth has ever moved a mountain through prayer (argue this point if you want dummies)

    Conclusions. So,Either

    A) Prayer doesn’t work, or

    B) No one on earth has the faith of a mustard seed.

    So, which one is it christians? A or B?

  9. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    LOL @ Rohan, ROK got me so confused that I feel like typing in his name too -ROTFL…

    Man ROK, step back a minute: you must realize that you are way ahead of most of us…

    …this thing started out with the suggestion that our world (the physical universe) came into existence at a point in time which MME has tagged as T=0.
    ..you seem to have introduced the argument that it was NOT really ‘created’ , since before the big bang, the matter that became the universe already existed -as energy.

    ..trust me ROK, that is semantics – around the definition of ‘create’.

    …and it appears to suggest that you will only accept ‘create’ to mean to “change from absolutely NOTHING, into something….”

    …Obviously Bush Tea is misinterpreting you – but it IS confusing.

    WRT the God of the bible, I cannot understand how you, Rohan and Not Saved can continue to base your beliefs on arbitrary positions developed by arbitrary groups of Christians, Muslins, Hindus, and Pygmies… You really disappoint me..

    For the purpose of our discussions, why can we not define a ‘CREATOR’ as those Big Boss Engineers responsible for the initiation of the big bang… and then develop our discussions around that given?

    …surely it is not helpful to have the situation where in the middle of a useful exchange someone refers to some ridiculous belief of some misguided group and concludes that God must therefore be an idiot…

    Is this an unreasonable proposal?

  10. Sir Bentwood Dick Avatar
    Sir Bentwood Dick

    Big Bang?….I hear’d bout a few a dem…

    😉

  11. Sir Bentwood Dick Avatar
    Sir Bentwood Dick

    BTW, usually after dem, one does thank the Almighty for what one hath gotten..!

  12. Deng Xiaping Avatar
    Deng Xiaping

    MME wrote

    “The Ptolemaic view of the universe was not a Christian creation, it was created by Greek pagan astronomer Ptolemy. Christians (like everyone else at the time) accepted it for a period..” .

    First thanks for your reply. Now, I knew that Ptolemy was NOT Christian but that was the point. His view was supported by Christians for over 1200 years and more importantly,Galileo had hell to pay at the hands of the Roman Church for, inter alia, supporting a contrary view. As I understand it the Bible appears to support Ptolemy not Galileo.

    I remain of the opinion that it was the particular situation of Europe that allowed the Enlightenment to flourish and hence science IN SPITE of the prevailing Christian dogma.

    As I have mentioned previously, we cannot discount the ideas of pre-Christian thinkers like Plato, Socrates, Pythagoras, Heraclitus, Aristotle which continue to underpin western thought today.

    Also it should be noted there was a flowering of scholarship and scientific enquiry in the Islamic world at one time (750 – 1258). However with economic, military and social decay so did the Islamic world enter its own dark ages.

  13. Sir Bentwood Dick Avatar
    Sir Bentwood Dick

    Seen somewhere :

    Consider the following: The ark was built by amateurs, the Titanic was built by professionals.

  14. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “Galileo had hell to pay at the hands of the Roman Church for, inter alia, supporting a contrary view”
    ————

    Deng… I am sure you know that it had far more to do with the “inter alia” than “supporting a contrary view”. You are a clever debater. 🙂

  15. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    … the Bible does not support Ptolemy. Everyone, including Christians, at the time thought it made sense and therefore supported it. The people who read the weather news support it to this very day. LOL

    That’s how science works… we subscribe to one theory until a better one comes along. Incidentally, it was Copernicus who 100 years before Galileo first formulated heliocentric cosmology.

    “Ptolemy created a universe that lasted a thousand years. Copernicus created a universe that lasted four hundred years. Einstein has created a universe, and I can’t tell you how long it will last.” – George Bernard Shaw

  16. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Deng… do you believe that “the ideas of pre-Christian thinkers like Plato, Socrates, Pythagoras, Heraclitus, Aristotle” would have taken root and flourished in non-Abrahamic religions?

    Are you more comfortable with the idea that Abrahamic religions took root and flourished in a society built around “the ideas of pre-Christian thinkers like Plato, Socrates, Pythagoras, Heraclitus, Aristotle”?

  17. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    BT says…

    “You really disappoint me..”

    —

    more condescension……

    thanks, appreciate it.

  18. Deng Xiaping Avatar
    Deng Xiaping

    From Wikipedia:

    Ecclesiastes 1:5 states that “And the sun rises and sets and returns to its place” .

    Readers are encouraged to read the Wikipedia entry on Galileo particularly the section titled “Church controversy”. I find the reported comments of Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) fascinating to wit the “verdict against Galileo was rational and just and the revision of this verdict can be justified only on the grounds of what is politically opportune.” Further it was in 1992 (350 years after Galileo’s death) that the Roman Church officially conceded that the Earth is not stationary!!!!

    It is serendipitous that I should mention Benedict at this time. In keeping with original topic of this thread, Benedict two days ago expressed respect for Islam and suggested that religion was a force for good and that Christianity and Islam could work together. However, as Muslims point out this is the same Benedict who in 2006 quoted a medieval scholar that called Islam violent and irrational. What do bloggers think?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8041421.stm

  19. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    WRONG Not saved,

    Honest disappointment, not condescension….. serious.

  20. Deng Xiaping Avatar
    Deng Xiaping

    MME

    I will not be dogmatic but I prefer your second construct re Abrahamic religions and Greek philosophers. I will admit your argument re if agreement on a starting point of the Universe thus a “starter” must be evident to be delightfully provocative.

  21. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    BT

    LOL

    does not matter how “honest” or “serious”, it is still condescension…

    no problem, I will recover

    by the way I have absolutely no idea what you were referring to, something about my beliefs and pygmies???

    and MME has me having “faith” in some “position” about the big bang that I was unaware I possessed…

    so I am very puzzled this sunday morning, maybe a quiet day is in order.

  22. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    LOL @ Bush Tea…

    Haha, honest disapointment?

    Of course you’re disappointed in the fact that we reserve the right to think for ourselves instead of sacrificing that right to a pastor, priest, or some white bearded fairy that lives somewhere in the sky.

    Matter of fact, where does he live? In which Galaxy Bush Tea? Where did Jesus go when he levitated up into the sky in physical form?

    I would be disapointed too if I were gullible enough to believe in something with zero evidence in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary.

    And yes Bush Tea, that IS condescending 🙂

  23. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I wrote this article about ten years ago.
    Today is mothers day,and so I post it here today in honor of our women and mothers.

    WOMEN ON THE BATTLE FIELD

    I —: WOMEN ON THE BATTLE FIELD AS MOTHERS!!

    JOCHEBED WAS PERHAPS THE MOST SUCCESSFUL OF ALL MOTHERS

    Though very little is recorded about her[ Ex I, 2;1-11 ,6:20 Numbers 26 ;59 Hebrews 11;23, she gave birth to three children, each of whom became renowned in their own sphere [Numbers26:59]. Just as the mighty oak has its roots around the rock, the children of Jochebed had their roots around their godly mother.

    Moses became one of the greatest national leaders and legislators the world has ever known.

    Aaron became Israel’s first high priest and the founder of the aaronic priesthood. Miriam, the gifted poetess and musician, was intimately associated with her two brothers in the history of Israel.

    Jochebed’s courage and trust in the act which preserved her sons life in defiance to the king’s order and its far reaching consequences secured her a place among the heroines of faith in Hebrews 11;23.Although she probably did not live to see how famous her children would become, she had lived her life as unto God, and her children lit their torches at her flame. She was the chief influence unto God in their preparation for the great tasks they were to accomplish in leading his people out of the Egyptian bondage.

    IN OUR DAY –one in which ABORTION IS THE NORM ,WE LOOK BACK AT A TRUE WOMAN WHO SOUGHT TO PRESERVE THE LIFE OF HER SON —–LOOK HOW GOD BLESSED HER MEMORY BY THE EXPLOITS OF HER CHILDREN. THIS SHOULD MOTIVATE ALL WOMEN TODAY TO BE CAREFUL WITH THE CHILDREN THAT GOD PUTS UNDER THIER CARE AND INFLUENCE WHETHER AS MOTHERS, TEACHERS, SUNDAY SCHOOL TEACHERS ETC GOD WANTS WOMEN TO HELP SHAPE THESE LIVES FOR HIM !!

    ZERUIAH [2SAM17 25 & I CHRON 2 ;16 was the sister of David and mother of three boys—Abishai, Joab and Asahel, who are always referred to as the sons of Zeruiah. The fact that her name appears 25 times besides that of her sons is sufficient proof that she was a mother of distinction who had a marked influence over the lives of her sons AND SHOULD IMPRESS WOMEN TODAY IN AN AGE WHERE WOMEN ARE INVOLVED IN EVERY SPHERE OF LIFE EXCEPT THAT ORDAINED BY GOD —–THE GODLY INFLUENCE OF HER CHILDREN –SPECIALLY THAT OF HER SONS .

    It is still true that the hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world. David’s cousins were mighty warriors and military leaders in Israel.

    JOCHEBED & ZERUIAH WERE CERTAINLY WOMEN ON THE BATTLEFIELD FOR THE LORD as mothers !! [AS MANY OTHERS IN THE BIBLE] WITH RESPECT TO THE PRODUCTION OF GODLY CHILDREN WHOM GOD COULD USE AS HIS SERVANTS.

    The value of proper Christian training in the home is also seen in the life of Timothy who was properly prepared for God’s work by the indoctrination of the word in his heart by both his mother and grandmother.

    2 WOMEN ON THE BATTLEFIELD BY THE EXALTATION OF MODESTY!!
    In a day where to sell a cigarette or any mundane product there is a need for the display of the almost nude bodies of women in the most profane way there is a need for women like—-
    VASHTI –THE WOMAN WHO EXALTED MODESTY
    Although the story of this queen covers only a few paragraphs in the book of Esther, this woman was the real true ruler in the drunken court from which she was expelled. Here was a princess by birth married to a king who reigned from India even unto Ethiopia” over an hundred and seven and twenty provinces[ a realm far greater than that of our own country] but yet her self respect and high character meant more to her than her husband’s vast realm.

    Rather than cater to the vanity and sensuality of drunkards , she courageously sacrificed a kingdom. Rather than lower the banner of womanly modesty she accepted shame and disgrace—she refused to exhibit herself even at the king’s command.
    THE WHOLE WORLD NEEDS WOMEN LIKE VASHTI TODAY—WOMEN ON THE BATTLEFIELD TO PRESERVE MODESTY AND THE HIGH STANDARDS THAT GOD REQUIRES THAT THE WOMAN’S BODY SHOULD NOT BE ON DISPLAY AS THOUGH IT WERE MEAT IN A BUTCHER SHOP FOR THE GAZE OF DROOLING DRUNKING MEN FULL OF LUST—THAT WAS NOT the purpose for which GOD INTENDED the woman’s body.

    3 WOMEN ON THE BATTLE FIELD AS PRAY WARRIORS !
    insert notes on Hannah here !!
    4 WOMEN ON THE BATTLEFIELD WHO LOVINGLY OBEYING AND SUPPORTING THEIR HUSBANDS LIKE SARAH
    The life of many a Christian man has been shipwrecked, and many a Christian home wrecked because of an unloving , disobedient so called christian woman —-oh yes we know that most often the fault lies with a womanising selfish husband, but in many a so called Christian home the WOMAN IS TO BLAME !!

    In 1 Peter 3;5-7 Sarah is distinguished for obedience to her husband, thereby becoming a model of wives in subjection to her husband.
    Beautiful,strongwilled and determined and though losing her temper on two oscccasions she never disobeyed her husband. From the time they left Ur of the Chaldees. And so in exhorting women to be obedient Peter holds up Sarah as the model in this rerspect. All through her wanderings in desert places there ran the golden thread of a beautiful and loving submission to her husband’s interests and in this respect she is a pattern for holy women to copy. Godly men can scarce exist without Godly women —it is nigh impossible !! Sarah and Abraham were two lives fused into one as God wants it to be, with Sarah inconspicuous in sacrificial submission

    As Longfellow wrote
    As unto the bow the cord is
    So unto the man is the woman
    Though she bends him, she obeys him
    Though she draws him yet she follows
    Useless each without the other
    This association of two Christians in secular and sacred service is best exemplified in the lives of Acquilla and Priscilla- a woman who was foremost in the service of the Lord in the early church [ Acts 18: 2, 28, 26 Romans 16: 3 etc
    This couple were
    ONE IN MARITAL BLISS
    ONE IN THE LORD
    ONE IN SECULAR OCCUPATION
    ONE IN THEIR FRIENDSHIP FOR PAUL
    ONE IN THEIR DEEP KNOWKLEDGE OF SCRIPTIURE
    ONE IN THE SERVICE OF THE CHURCH
    The lives of these couples are to be models for us.WOMEN MUST BE ON THE BATTLEFIELD SIMULTANEOUSLY SERVING WITH THEIR HUSbANDS!!
    5 WOMAN ON THE BATTLEFIELD AS SERVANTS IN THE CHURCH
    LOOK AT DORCAS
    A Christian philanthropist, who became known for the acts of charity which she did —she did not only think of them she did them she demonstrated that faith and love were to be acted out she understood what James meant by “ faith without works is dead” Just as God was able to use the rod in Moses ‘s hand , so was he able to the needle in Dorcas’ hand .She used her needle and she stitched for God .Dear woman of God what simple tool or implement can you put to work for God today or in the week ahead —man may not notice you but God certainly will!!
    Would you be missed from your community or workplace or church if you died today ? Would they miss you as they missed Dorcas?

    LOOK AT PHOEBE
    SHE WAS A SISTER i.e she knew the Lord as her Saviour
    SHE WAS A SERVANT OF THE CHURCH ie not only was she a church member, she was a deaconess as the word used for servant implies…it is diakonos from which we get deacon. She was therefore a teacher of the females inquirers of faith and also active in the relief of the temporal needs of the poor among the flock, her role was the forerunner of the vast number of women who have rendered such loyal service to Christ and His Church
    SHE WAS A SUCCOURER OF MANY— this means one who stands by in case of need. It is a term describing a trainer in the olympic games who stood by the athletes to see that they were properly trained and rightly girded when they lined up for the signal.
    She was the unselfish liberal helper or patroness of the saints conspicuous for her works of charity and also hospitality

    Note the other christian female helpers here like Claudia,Tryphena and Tryphosa [Romans 16; 2] as well as the un-named ones mentioned in Phil 4 :3

    6 WOMEN ON THE BATTLEFIELD AS SOULWINNERS!!
    PUAH & SHIPHRAH[ Exodus 1:15 were the two midwives who risked their lives by disobeying the Pharoah in saving the male babies of the Hebrew women. Not only are these women the forerunner of the multitude of women who have chosen this vocation to bring children into the world and bestow suc loving care on them in early infancy but they REMIND US OF OUR TASK ON THE BATTLEFIELD OF BRINGING OTHER SPIRITUAL CHILDREN INTO THE SPHERE OF GODS SALVATION.
    The other woman who comes to mind in this regard is one whom society would frown on today .But our Blessed Lord went out of the way to speak to her and she went out to tell her whole village about the saviour …the obvious change in her life was so convincing that we are told in john 4 that many believed on HIS NAME!!Of course we are talking about the Samaritan women who had five previous husbands and was currently living in sin, when the Lord met her.
    CHRISTIAN WOMEN OF ALL WALKS OF LFE ARE TO BE ON THE BATTLEFIELD not only SERVING IN THE CHURCH but also in LEADING OTHERS TO CHRIST.

    WOMEN ON THE BATTLEFIELD IN THEIR NATIONAL INFLUENCE!!

    HULDAH [2 KINGS 22 & 2 CHRON 34 ]
    Here is a woman whose standing and reputation are attested to by the fact that she as consulted rather than Jeremiah when the lost book of the law was found and that her word was accepted by all as the divinely revealed one. When Hilkiah, the priest found the lost book in the temple, Josiah the king, sent for this woman who attested to the genuineness of the scroll and then prophesied national ruin because of the people’s disobedience.
    GOD NEEDS WOMEN WHO CAN INFLUENCE THE NATION OR THEIR STATE OR THEIR SURROUNDINGS BECAUSE THEy ARE KNOWN TO BE GODLY!!

    A FEW NOTES ON RUTH!!1

    RUTH must be to all Christians— male and female a special example- because she reminds of whence we have all come as believers as WE READ Ephesians 2 ;12 which we will read together ‘here we are told we were GODLESS CHRISTLESS AND HOPELESS
    THIS GIRL IS PRESENTED TO US FIRST AS A YOUNG WIDOW robbed by death of her husband and left without material resources of support to face the e hard and bitter lot of biting poverty as many widows do when the breadwinner is taken. Though a heathen she did not seek for self pity nor manifest the grief that gripped the heart of her mother in law she seemed to have accepted the divine will and could feel that The Lord gave The Lord have taken away Blessed be the name of the lord
    NEXT WE SEE HER AS A FAITHFUL DAUGHTER IN LAW
    THEN AS A DETERMINED CONVERT
    THEN A HUMBLE GLEANER

    AND FINALLY SHE BECAME AN HONOURED MOTHER

    What a story of a rise from rags to riches from poverty to plenty and she became via her union with Boaz an ancestor of David and eventually of our Lord as we read in Matthew chapter one

    From Ruth’s outstanding qualities of unselfishness and loyalty we learn that such virtues are the only foundation upon which true happiness can be built. Without them abiding friendship is impossible, home ties are loose and the social structure weak
    Ruth also teaches us that attractive graciousness is worth cultivating and that racial hatred and bigotry can be solved by a right relationship to him who made of one blood all nation

  24. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Regarding ‘…any examples of non-Abrahamic religion that posit an absolute beginning to the universe.”

    Apparently not, it is significant, and not too surprising despite the common claim that creationism is religion, while evolution is sceience, that most of the world’s religions are based on evolution rather than creation. This is true not only of atheism and humanism, which are certainly religious systems rather than science, but also of the various ethnic religions such as Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, and others. None of these religions involve belief in a personal Creator God.

    They and all the other ethnic religions, all maintain that their religions are ‘scientific’ because they harmonize so well with modern evolutionism.

    In fact, the only world religions that assume a primeval special creation of all things, including that of the universe itself, are those based on the Bible, and thus, ultimately on the first chapter of the Bible, namely, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. And, even these are now mostly ‘liberalized,’ with large segments of each faith now promoting theistic evolution rather than real creation.

    The real author of this vast religious complex, this world religion of Pantheistic, Polytheistic, Demonistic, Astrological, Occultistic, Humanistic evolutionism, can be none other than the one who is called in the Bible, the “god of this world” (II Cor. 4:4), the one “which deceiveth the whole world” (Rev. 12:9). The Lord Jesus Christ called him “a liar, and the father of it” (John 8:44). He is “the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan” (Rev. 20:2).

    True science is fully consistent with Christian theology in general, and creationism in particular, certain modern scientists to the contrary notwithstanding. Indeed, modern science had its origin in the creationist world view of Biblical Christianity. Whereas, modern scientism, on the other hand, is based on arbitrary incorporation of eternity-to-eternity naturalism into the establishment definition of science.

    The Law of Cause and Effect.

    If we go back to basics in true science, probably the most universal and certain of all scientific principles, is the principle of causality, the law of ’cause’ and ‘effect.’ There is no question of its universal acceptance in the world of experimental science, as well as in ordinary personal experience.

    Yes, the subtle refinements of philosophical argumentation relative to causality require such specialized educational background, that non-specialists in philosophy find them extremely tedious either to appreciate or evaluate. So, let us leave that aside, and stick to some basis scientific truth.

    In ordinary daily experiences, we all know intuitively that nothing happens in isolation. Every event can be traced to one or more events which preceded it, and which, in fact, caused it. We may raise such questions about it as:

    “How did this happen?” “What caused this?” “Where did this come from?” “When did it start?” Or, even more incisively, “Why did this happen?”

    A scientific experiment specifically tries to relate effects to causes, in the form of quantitative equations if possible.

    A good definition of a ’cause’ formulated by the great nineteenth-century apologist, C.A. Row, could hardly be improved on.

    “A cause is a thing previously existing, which has not only the power to bring into existence something not previously existing, but which has actually produced it.”

    The philosophy of scientific determinism has been invoked to disprove the Biblical miracles, while missing the point. The occurrence of a miracle does not contravine causality at all, but, merely invokes a higher cause, a cause quite adequate to produce the miracle.

    Rather than discrediting the possibilty of the supernatural, the law of causation offers strong testimony to the existence of a personal, omnipotent God. The law leads inevitably to a choice between two alternatives: (1) an infinate chain of nonprimary causes; or (2) and uncaused primary Cause of all causes!

    And the only adequate First Cause is the God of the Bible! That is, the First Cause must be infinite, eternal, and omnipotent ( as required by the effects of boundless space, endless time, and the array of various phenomena of energy and matter occurring everywhere through space and always through time.) The First Cause must also be living, conscious, volitional, and omniscient, in view of the phenomenal effects of life, consciousness, will, and intelligibility in the universe.

    Similarly, the First Cause of the concept of righteousness, and the universal conviction that righteousness is ‘better’ than unrighteousness, must be a moral Cause. The First Cause of the concepts of beauty, of justice, of spirituality, of love, and other such qualities (all of which, though abstract, are nonetheless, real effects in this universe) must, by the principle of causation, be an esthetic, just, spiritual, loving Cause!

    Finally, the inexorable conclusion to which we are driven by the scientific law of cause and effect, the foundational principle upon which all true science is built, and which all human experience confirms, is, that this universe was brought into existence by a great uncaused, self-existing, First Cause.

    Principle of Cause and Effect.

    And effect can never be greater, and, in fact, will always be less than its cause. This is a chain of effects and their causes must eventually trace back to an essential infinite First Cause.

    Therefore;

    The First Cause of limitless space must be infinite.

    The Firstr Cause of endless time must be eternal.

    The First Cause of boundless energy must be omnipotent.

    The First Cause of infinite complexity must be omniscient.

    The First Cause of Love must be Loving.

    The First Cause of Life must be Living.

    Thus, the First Cause of the Universe, must be an Infinite, Eternal, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Volitional, Holy, Loving, Living Being!

  25. Pat Avatar
    Pat

    @GP aka Anonymous and Zoe:

    Long posts are not read. Try breaking them in readable chunks like NS. Thanks.

  26. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Zoe, I think you have to post such long messages to hide the crap you post.

    Anonymous, interesting post on women since it’s mother’s day, here’s what you left out:

    1) God values women less than men:

    Here’s a table of values as given by God to Moses:

    Ages 20 years – 60 years: Male = $50; Female = $30

    2) According to Leviticus 19:20-22, if a man rapes his female slave… the woman gets punished and the man’s sins are forgiven.

    3) In Deuteronomy 22:28-29 it says that if a man rapes a virgin, he must marry her and also pay her father 50 shekels for humbling her.

    4) 1 Samuel 18:25-27 Saul sells his daughter to David. But he didn’t want money,he wanted 100 foreskins from Philistine men.

    WONDER WHAT WOMEN WOUL THINK ABOUT BEING SOLD FOR PIECES OF SEVERED PENISES?

    5) 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.
    WOMEN CANNOT TALK IN CHURCH:
    Women are to remain silent, and if they have any questions they are to ask their husbands at home after church.

    ***
    So there you go women? This is what God thinks of you. Happy Mother’s Day.

  27. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Deng,

    On Galileo… here are a few questions that might help the inquisitive to paint a fuller picture of the events which transpired at the time…

    Where was Galileo housed during his Inquisition hearing?
    What was he actually charged and convicted of?
    Why was his sentence commuted to house arrest?
    Where and with whom did he spend this initial house arrest?
    What evidence did Galileo present to support heliocentrism?
    Who invented the “E pur si muove” myth and why?
    When was the ban on Galileo’s works lifted and by whom?
    Why did Pope Urban VIII switch from one of Galileo’s biggest ‘fans’ (even acknowledging the possibility of heliocentirism) to an opponent?

    By the way Deng, you do realize that basic premise of heliocentrism (like Ptolemaic cosmology) has been proven wrong? The sun is not the centre of the universe.

  28. Deng Xiaping Avatar
    Deng Xiaping

    oh MME please!!!

    I have NEVER written that the Sun was the centre of the universe. I did write that the “modern view: everything in motion (earth orbiting the sun etc)”!!

  29. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Another revelation of the Triune nature of God, who created the universe, is that the physical universe is an amazing trinity of trinities. The only adequate cause to account for this remarkable effect is, that it was created to reflect the triune nature of God who created it.

    Space:

    1) Identified in First Dimension.

    2) Seen in Second Dimension.

    3) Experienced in Third Dimension.

    Existing in Tri-Universe.

    Manifested in Matter.

    1. Generated in Energy.

    2. Seen through Motion.

    3. Experienced by Phenomena.

    Understood through Time.

    1. Source in Future.

    2. Manifested in Present.

    3. Experienced in Past.

    Therefore, in a most remarkable way, the universe is a tri-universe, (not three universes’), but, the universe as a whole is a space-matter (or energy)-time continuum. Space is length, breadth, and depth, a trinity of aspects. Time is future, present, and past, a trinity of time. And matter, in the broadest sense, is cause, event, and consequence, or (energy, motion, and phenomenom).

    Throughout the universe we see this recurring relationship of source, manifestation, and meaning. The relationships are so basic and obvious, that we find it difficult to even wonder about them. They seem axiomatic, part of the necessary structure of things, that are almost too ‘clearly seen.’

    There must be a cause for every effect, and the physical universe has somehow been caused to be a magnificant trinity of trinities! Certainly, a highly adequate and appropriate Cause for such a remarkable effect, would be that its Creator designed it in His own likeness!

    Thus, the basic laws of nature, and the triune dimensionality of natural processes, rather than discrediting God and His primeval creation, emphatically witness to the fact of creation and the nature of the Creator, wonderfully, and marvelously reflected in His Creation!

  30. Deng Xiaping Avatar
    Deng Xiaping

    It is to be noted that the Roman church has only officially accepted the idea that the earth is not stationary since 1992!

  31. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Deng, 1992 is when the Pope came out and apologized for what they did to Galileo.

    What a joke. I mean, seriously….

  32. Deng Xiaping Avatar
    Deng Xiaping

    Rohan note that according to Benedict (in 1990 when known as Cardinal Ratzinger) he said that the “verdict against Galileo was rational and just and the revision of this verdict can be justified only on the grounds of what is politically opportune.”

  33. Straight talk Avatar
    Straight talk

    Zoe;

    Another rather twee example of your creator’s omniscience.

    Trinity of trinities eh! … perfectly designed dimensions in his own image except physicists are already working assuming eleven dimensions as they attempt to match Feynman’s accepted formula to predict QED with the reason why it is so.

    A mistake by the Master of the Universe, surely not.
    More likely yet another fairy story disproved by knowledge.

  34. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Deng,
    yeah, I just saw that. Then On 31 October 1992, Pope John Paul II expressed regret for how the Galileo affair was handled, and officially conceded that the Earth was not stationary, as the result of a study conducted by the Pontifical Council for Culture.
    ***
    I mean, this would be downright hilarious if the Catholic church, and the child abusing imbeciles than ran it weren’t so powerful.

    They had to conduct a study to figure out that the sun was not the center of the universe…after the rest of the world has known this for centuries…

    There’s religion for ya!

  35. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Next up, the Catholic church will conduct a study to determine why things fall to the ground when we drop them.

    Maybe it will take them another 100 years to recognize that gravity isn’t caused by God’s angels flapping their wings.

  36. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    @ Pat
    I am neither Zoe or Anonymous. Thank you.

  37. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    And if I should quote Massey, this is exactly how Hopi’s foreword would go:

    “Your science grasps with its transforming hand;
    Makes real half the tales of fairy land;
    It turns the deathliest fetor to perfume
    It gives decay new life and rosy bloom
    It changes filthy rags to virgin white
    Makes pure in spirit what was foul to sight.”

    And I’d guarantee you that ROK’s theory would sell more books than Grenville’s, who decided that on seeing the death of over K3000 beings in NYC on that fateful day, decided that instead of looking right in his bible or the talmud, he got on the bandwagon and followed the BIG lie that the Muslims did it, when the bloodhound trail actually led right back to his bible and their talmud. Those who are responsible for all the wars, bloodshed, starvation, disease and suffering on this planet.Dishonest, dishonest. Seems to be a”moral” christian trait.

    To all mothers and those who are contemplating motherhood of the BU family, Hotep!

    Bonny Peppa, how you doing? Pat,JC,J and (Staright Talk…not sure if I should include you there, but with you being worried about keeping your powder dry, just thought I should give you a shout out too).

    And to all mothers don’t let your children grow up to be christian. That’s child abuse!

    And to all you here jiving about Plato and Pythagoreas and all the other “great” Greeks, just remember that they studied at the feet of the greatest of the great i.e. the Black Ones! The Original Ones!

    Amun Ra!

    BTW…..The Pope is and has always been a two-faced LIAR.

  38. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ Rohan,

    Wait skipper!! you in a very acid mood today!! … man ease up off the pope and his followers nuh…. cuh dear….

    ….with respect to my condescending attitude, I guess that we will have to go with how it was taken…. and so I apologize to you and Not Saved (me and ROK good .LOL)

    …but Rohan, when you finish rapping all those various Christians, church goers etc and when you have scorned and laughed at their beliefs (somewhat like the Bushman does) we still will not have made much headway in determining what REALLY is the truth out there… nor would we have established what it is that these misguided souls (your’s and Bushman’s opinion) should REALLY be believing and following.

    Do we not owe it to ourselves -and to the misguided souls to explore this?

    (..as I said previously, Bushman does not care if others believe or not, just wondering if you feel that we have a duty to explore what REALLY is truth?…or if you are contented to just criticize the attempts of others to find truth…)

  39. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Bush,

    Good questions.

    I do believe that we have a duty to explore the truth and this extends to pointing out where that truth is NOT found. Trust me, it’s not in the bible.

    A) Truth in the bible: Slavery is a good thing.

    The Truth: It’s an immoral act.

    B) Truth in the bible: Rape is okay.

    The Truth: It’s an immoral act.

    I didn’t rely on the bible to tell me those things were wrong because it the bible advocated those things.

    So, the quest for truth starts with letting go of dogmatic crap and thinking for yourself.
    ***
    As for “criticizing others attempts to find truth”, I do no such thing. I want you to find truth, I’m just saying you need to stop looking in a book that is obviously full of lies.

  40. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Oh and Bush Tea, I’m always acid when it comes to religion. It’s not personal…but I can’t think of an institution that has caused more harm in the world.

    Article on today’s cnn:
    http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/05/10/saudi.court.wife.slapping/index.html

    Did you not see those things I posted above about God’s take on women?

    I have a mother and sisters.

    If those things don’t get you “acid” then I don’t know what to say.

  41. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    Excuse me Rohan, should you not be at lunch with your mother now? … naughty!!!

    ….I cannot seem to get through to you. FORGET THE BIBLE!!
    FORGET THE MISGUIDED!!

    ..you said-
    “…we have a duty to explore the truth and this extends to pointing out where that truth is NOT found.”

    LOL Rohan, this is the most inefficient way to find anything (imagine trying to find New York by checking all the other cities and demonstrating that they are NOT NY!! ROTFL…

    My proposal is that we start with what we can agree.

    …we then use our collective minds (and MME as our research assistant) to map out a route to the most logical ‘truth’.

    We take nothing for granted and we do not even speak about any existing religions…

    We should be able to come up with a version of the ‘truth’ that is at least logical, consistent and possible – since we can see all the weaknesses of existing dogma…

    …you game?

  42. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    I’m game…and good point on NYC haha I’ll give you that.

  43. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Hopi!

    “And I’d guarantee you that ROK’s theory would sell more books than Grenville’s…”

    You setting me up or what? LOL! Something like that would take all of us to put together. It is a lot of work and research and would probably take about four years. We may be able to do it in 2 yrs, especially if we decide to write a “trilogy”. The first one would finish in about two years and the other two would come out a year after each other. Still four years.

    We don’t have that time. Maybe we should do a handbook… Or release a chapter at a time. Jahwe will get us. You ready for a life in the underground?

  44. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Deng

    “Now, I knew that Ptolemy was NOT Christian but that was the point. His view was supported by Christians for over 1200 years and more importantly,Galileo had hell to pay at the hands of the Roman Church for, inter alia, supporting a contrary view.”

    You have demonstrated the very point I was trying to explain to BT. I have difficulty ascribing credit to religion and especially Christianity, for any advances in knowledge.

    Religion is just not designed for that. It is inflexible. Laying down law and dogma to explain everything holistically and therefore has no room for doubt, only belief. So when advances in science starts to explain things differently, they have been known to have met hostility and sneering from the Church.

    Like the Pope, religion will hang onto its dogma until the time comes that to hang on becomes ridiculous; to its discredit. Of course the Church “cannot” be discredited because the mad house would start to fill up.

    Yet with all this, some christians here would want to claim how much christianity did for modern technology and would try to own it. Same way they take over the vocabulary.

    Christianity is a total deception.

  45. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    @BT,

    Thanks man, we good, not that we were ever not good.

  46. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    We now got a trilogy of competent ‘Pinheads’ here on BU, about to attempt re-writing the established, fundamental laws of Logic, good, sound scientific principles, and solid, objective, cogent, congruent premises, on which the Historic, Biblical revelation of Creation is based, and cannot be refuted, denied, yes, but not refuted!!!

    Trying to forget the Bible, is like trying to forget that we need oxygen to breath and live; that’s expressly why you all, are gasping for air in your spirits, as you are spiritually dead!

    The reservoirs of power in the Created universe are so vast as to be completely incomprehensible in their fullness.

    Back to basics in good science, not the freewheeling fantasy of pseudo-science as expounded by evolutionary atheistic scientists, who believe in a one-end stick!

    The two great principles of ‘Thermodynamics’ which describe the basic ways physical power in the universe is manifested, and these very two all-embracing laws of science affirm that none of this power in now coming into existence, even though its form is continually changing and is, in fact, continually being degraded into less useful and available forms.

    The principles of conservation and decay are common to everyday experience, and likewise substantiated by the most precise scientific measurements.

    The universe is therefore, gradually becoming more and more disordered as its entropy inexorably increases, which is supported by what the Bible indicates will happen as a result of ‘SIN’ which brought a curse upon it from its Creator, both to the natural order, and specifically on mankind.

    Implications of the Two Laws of Thermodynamics, Governing All Natural Processes.

    The first law of thermodynamics, states (in accordance with Genesis 2: 1-3) that none of the tremendous energy (or “power”) of the universe is now being created, so that the universe could NOT have created itself.

    The second law (in accordance with Rom 8:20-22, as well as Genesis 3: 17-19) states that the available energy of the universe is decreasing, indicating that sometime in the past all the energy (including matter) was available and perfectly organized, like a clock that had just been wound up. This shows that the universe must have been created, even though it could not create itself.

    These two laws point inexorably back to Genesis 1:1. whether you like it, or lump it, it remains true, for that is good science!

    The beginning of the universe was outside of ‘time’ and its possible renewal must likewise be outside of time. It cannot be “temporal” power. It is therefore, Eternal power. And all of these “things that are made” continually give witness to Almighty God’s Eternal Power, exactly as the Scripture, God’s Word, the Bible state.

    Every process the scientist studies and every system designed by the technologist continually bear witness that the ultimate power source driving the process or the system comes from the Creator of power, the Omnipotent One!!!

  47. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Democracy is great. It allows you to have diarrhea in public.

  48. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ Zoe
    ****************************************
    We now got a trilogy of competent ‘Pinheads’ here on BU, about to attempt re-writing the established, fundamental laws of Logic, good, sound scientific principles, and solid, objective, cogent, congruent premises, on which the Historic, Biblical revelation of Creation is based, and cannot be refuted, denied, yes, but not refuted!!!
    *************************************
    Cheese on bread!! Man just tek it easy nuh!! Why Christians have to be so easily offended?
    …you mean to say that you upset now because three pinheads trying to conduct an independent search for the truth? What are you worried about? You want to make it four pinheads? LOL
    ….you are welcome to join in – BUT WITH BRIEF INTERJECTIONS – those long scholastic essays of yours are to high for lowly pinheads LOL.

  49. Straight talk Avatar
    Straight talk

    ZOE:

    You are so(le) well versed in God’s perfect world, please explain to we more sceptical mortals why the world is so f#cked up by the interpretation of his agenda.

    Should he not be yelling to his converts *Whoa, this is not what I had mapped out for you”.

    I really wanted the watered down Bush Tea version; you know like pretty-pretty potential may lead to actual experience if enough intellectual vigour is supplied thus leading to enlightenment.

    Your two weeks of argument leaves me underwhelmed.

  50. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    MME,

    I know you have many intelligent people including very clever scientists on your “side”.

    But then again, you also have Zoe……

    LOL

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