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brotherskeptapartFellow blogger Weighed in the Balance has undertaken the ambitious and highly risky task of writing a book which as he terms it “is a comparative analysis of the Bible and the Qur’an, and it assumes that both books are correct.  If God is the principal author of each book, as Christians and Muslims claim, then a comparative analysis should reveal harmony between the principal teachings of both.  This is what I have found.  Hence, Christians and Muslims have been kept apart by their religious leaders who have taught their adherents that God has rejected the other group.” The topic matter was thought to be so contentious that he originally penned his book using a pseudonym.

Phillip’s book is titled Brothers Kept Apart and can be purchased on Amazon.com at a reasonable price. Some members of the BU family have already demonstrated that they are students of the religions. Brother Phillips advises that the book represents 30 years of research and 7 years of critical review and he stands ready to defend his thesis.

It is no secret that the BU household has demonstrated a keen interest in the religions or what some people disparagingly refer to as dogmas. It is a fascinating subject and one which is shrouded in mystery, allegories, parables, fables and some theology  Religion has been used through the ages to edify and destroy man’s existence. Of interest to all through the ages has been the cooption of  religion to pit Islam versus Christianity, East versus West by geo-political motivated groups.

For a synopsis of the book the BU family is welcomed to visit Phillips’s blog. We look forward to a fascinating discussion and take the opportunity to wish him every success.

What he has attempted demonstrates courage of conviction, a characteristic in scarce supply.

.


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1,124 responses to “The Bible And The Qur'an, Brothers Kept Apart”


  1. LOL,
    Not Saved,
    Thanks for saving us from the blatant intellectual dishonesty. Only the dishonest or the ignorant still make that “there have been no transitional fossils found” argument when countless have been found and documented.

    Either way, even if there were zero evidence to support evolutionary theory, that would do NOTHING to prove that the God of the Bible or the God of any other book for that matter, had anything to do with life on earth.


  2. MME writes,

    “It is intellectually dishonest to single out any single culture or belief system for something that ALL (without exception) were guilty of.”

    —-

    But I did no such thing.

    Quite the opposite.

    I only suggested that since the bible does not condemn slavery that this is very persuasive of its very human authorship.

    Christians fell on both sides of this issue for many years, true or false?

    If it was rooted in christian principle why:

    -was opposition not universal?
    -why did it take about 1800 years?


  3. MME writes :

    “Judeo-Christian philosophy is the main pillar on which our Western moral value system, ‘enlightenment’ and scientific revolution rests.”

    —-

    And this has bearing on its supernatural claims?


  4. “Faith means not wanting to know what is true.”

    [Friedrich Nietzsche]

  5. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    @Eddie

    “What is the next phase of evolvement for man”

    We are fortunate enough to be getting a glimpse of our next evolutionary phase Eddie… the merger of biology and technology. Provided, that is, these atheists don’t destroy the very framework that has allowed our successful evolution to date… AND also provided that the eschatological anxiety of the religious right doesn’t foster “apathetic acceptance of defeat” (to borrow a quote from Will Durant).


  6. Zoe

    GENESIS 6:

    “1: And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
    “2: That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
    “3: And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
    “4: There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.”

    Well! Well! Well! We start to get a picture of who is God. God had children who were flesh and blood and in some way compatible in genetic structure with man. ; because they took wives as they choose. Well after all, man was made in the image and likeness of god.

    Imagine that you have your daughters and all of a sudden aliens come and take your girl children for their wives and you can’t do anything about it?

    I trying to let people understand who we dealing with. We are not dealing here with any justice but a set of mortals who are more powerful than us, technology wise, and it may be a case of touch one, touch all. We as mankind do the same thing. If a dog kills a man or taste human blood, what do we do with that dog?

    So, one alien comes into town. Picks up your daughters and you kill him. Whole town dead for killing one of god’s children and that will serve as a lesson to the rest of towns not to touch an alien no matter what they do. THE WHITE MAN DID IT TO WE. Whatever the white man did, we could not touch him during slavery; he had total dominion, and if he tell his slaves to lie, they lie or get beaten unmercifully or lynched.

    Before 2012, we will get a taste, don’t fear. The problem is that we ain’t prepared for it and we will be in for a rude awakening; or pray for another Moses.

    Of course that Moses is probably the USA or more likely, the illuminati, who is saying to your God, don’t kill them off at random with weapons of mass destruction, they will say that God is unjust and plus, we now fight a war against weapons of mass destruction.

    Let us instead plant some HIV/AIDS and swine flues and when they die off, god would not get the blame.

    Furthermore, we have a perfect system here. If you show yourself as god to the earth people, then we would have lost the control that is required to contain men and keep them as slaves; the illuminati may have already negotiated.

    So like Moses the illuminati said to this world, all who on my side stand behind me and they armed them with swords and ordered them to go among their brothers all throughout the earth and kill them… and apart from waging war we will throw in some:

    SWINE FLU!

    Zoe boy, I not going any further on this with you. I leaving you in the darkness if you still there, I think I had enough; but I would encourage all people, to take up the bible and read it as a literal work and not a figurative work.


  7. Not Saved, you don’t even understand the quotations you made, man, you must be a ‘Tiktaalik Rosae’ fuh sure!

    I’ll deal with your evolutionary fairy tails lies tomorrow!!!

  8. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Not Saved… no need to get defensive… you are one of the honest atheists I referred to 🙂

    The examples I gave have no bearing on Christianity’s “supernatural claims”, it was a response to the other accusations relating to its value.


  9. ok MME, I will desist.

    “honest atheist” – LOL

    some would say that is an oxymoron ! LOL


  10. Zoe writes :

    “Not Saved, you don’t even understand the quotations you made, man, you must be a ‘Tiktaalik Rosae’ fuh sure!”

    —-

    I did not make them, I just cited them.

  11. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “Faith means not wanting to know what is true.”

    … yes, if like Nietzche, you subscribe to the philosophy of moral nihilism i.e. nothing is moral or immoral, or alternatively, no action, regardless of its motivation, is inherently right or wrong.

    Do you subscribe to that world view Not Saved?


  12. @ Rohan

    MME said: ““It is intellectually dishonest to single out any single culture or belief system for something that ALL (without exception) were guilty of.””

    Not need to retreat Rohan. God put us here to serve him and to serve means being a slave. In the absence of god, there must always be a slave master from among us and no race will escape. Some may be more humane than others and that is all. There is now a slave master of the earth that dictates to all sub-level slave masters; or should I call them overseers?

    MME Said, “… a rare glimpse of intellectual honesty seldom found among atheists… excluding those found here on BU of course :-)”

    Well I don’t consider myself to be an atheist but in an earlier contribution on this thread, I spoke about this matter of atheist having faith in something and belief in something because to believe that there is no god is an entire belief in itself that starts with the fact of creation by mere presence. Question is, who really created?

  13. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    ROFL… now reading higher up the thread… ‘Ab origine’ is a latin phrase which literally translates ‘From beginning’.


  14. Atheism is no more of a belief system, than not believing in the tooth fairy is a belief system.

    Frankly I don’t like the term atheist. Why should there even be a term?

    What’s the term for someone who doesn’t believe in unicorns?

    There is none.

    The god of the bible has shown himself to be no more valid than the existence of unicorns or countless other fables that we dismiss forthright.

    If you think about it, christians are atheists too. They are atheists when it comes to Zeus, Odin, and the other trillion Gods out there.

    I just believe in ONE less God than they do.


  15. Shrodinger?!! Model Christian? Come on MME the man had two wives (one was even married to another man).

    And von Neumann, born Jewish, lived mostly as an Agnostic, asks a Roman Catholic priest for counsel as he dies from cancer.


  16. MME,

    No, I am not a nihilist

    and neither was Nietzsche, not at least by your definition.


  17. MME,

    Just looked and saw your list of christian scientists.

    Not really sure the point.

    Lots of great non christian scientists too.

    I would not like to have done without any of them.

    And I am not sure your list is fully accurate but that is irrelevant anyway.

    “toting up” good and bad christians and good and bad aspects of christian societies seems to me a futile exercise to my main question, which is the validity of the supernatural claims of the religion.

    You stated :

    “Christianity has had a significant and profound impact on modern science… more so than ANY other religious doctrine or secular world view.”

    but that does that make it true?

    Since great scientific contributions came from believers and non believers alike why should we anything more into about believers?


  18. If a list of outstanding scientists who were agnostic was drawn up, would that give agnosticism validity?

    As to this “western value system”, to what do you refer? The one with or without the ideas of people like Darwin, Dewey,Marx, Keynes or the existentialists (Nietzsche, Sartre, Heidegger) or the Postmodernists (Foucault or Derrida)?

  19. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Deng… I didn’t say they were all model Christians. Take out the ones that make you uncomfortable 🙂


  20. Not Saved, Rohan

    I am not sure of your position on this but I see Zoe carrying on about evolution.

    However, evolution is not on trial here and the question of whether or not there is acceptance of evolution is immaterial.

    It is not automatic that if you don’t believe in god you believe in evolution. One can believe in Creation without believing that the God of the bible is the Creator. All evidence leads to creation and it is only after creation that evolution can take place as it is still taking place.

    Christianity and its wickedness will not force me into apposition and they have no monopoly on Creation. Their monopoly is on their version of the Creation which is totally warped. Do not let anybody tell you what your beliefs are or who the Creator is. One thing for sure, the creator is not the God of the Bible.


  21. Rohan

    “If you think about it, christians are atheists too. ”

    I think we need to put things in perspective. The Creator is the Creator; a god is a god, a king is a king and a lord is a lord. There is no question of believing there are Lords, kings or gods because these are all titles of ownership and exercise of power; like government.

    The Creator however is a different matter. Atheism is a non-word because there being a god, does not require belief, it is a fact… and to say it again, no god is The Creator. No King is The Creator or no Lord is The Creator. Anything after The Creator or Creation is mortal.


  22. Not Saved,

    I think you are mistaken on the position of “order in the universe”; I shall explain:
    -A person walks, talks, sleeps, eats rythymically.
    -One can see that the composition of the body was not done by chance
    – The blowing of the air, formation of clouds, the aquatic world of the sea -Intelligent Design.

    W


  23. “Christianity has had a significant and profound impact on modern science…”

    Yes it did. It set back modern science by about 2000 years by the unwarranted destruction of knowledge. Anything it may have done to repair the damage could only be atonement, but certainly cannot make up for what was lost.

    If I destroy something and then build it back, what did I do? What credit do I deserve for the reconstruction; especially knowing that in the reconstruction, I will not get it back to what it was because I destroyed the footprint which I now have to guess at?


  24. Not Saved,

    I think you are mistaken on the position of “order in the universe”; I shall explain:
    -A person walks, talks, sleeps, eats rythymically.
    -One can see that the composition of the body was not done by chance
    – The blowing of the air, formation of clouds, the aquatic world of the sea -Intelligent Design.

    We can go on and on.

    We do not live in a “perfect world”, but the universe screams “Intelligent Design”
    One would have to deliberately close his or her mind not to acknowledge


  25. Getting slightly back on topic,

    Grenville, any news of the stats in the video?

    It seemed like right wing propaganda to me.

    If the core teachings of islam and christianity are the same should we fear becoming islamic?


  26. Eddie writes:

    “One can see that the composition of the body was not done by chance”

    —-

    I was not aware anyone made such a claim

    “The blowing of the air, formation of clouds”

    —-

    No, we have very sound naturalistic explanations for these phenomena

    “the aquatic world of the sea -Intelligent Design.”

    —–

    seems less than intelligent if you cant swim.

    “We do not live in a “perfect world”, but the universe screams “Intelligent Design” ”

    ——

    non sequitur


  27. Eddie wrote:

    “One would have to deliberately close his or her mind not to acknowledge”

    —

    Actually no.

    One would have to close your mind to not search for natural explanations to natural phenomena


  28. Eddie claims :

    “A person walks, talks, sleeps, eats rythymically.”

    —

    considering you posted that at 1:48 am I can be sure that claim is even valid about you.


  29. cannot be sure…..


  30. @ Edddie

    “Am I to believe that “perfect order”… all came about by evolving over time?

    Can it evolve if it is not there? Can it evolve if it was not created? Even if you describe the Big Bang as the theory of evolution, there could be no big bang without creation.

    If you think about an egg that is fertilised and the embryo grows matures and bursts out of the egg and then keeps growing or expanding, is that not the big bang theory?

    As that living thing keeps growing, constantly changing until maturity and even after maturity, is that not comparable to what we are calling evolution. Is evolution not about maturity, i.e. getting better and more equipped to survive in, cope with and maintain ones environment?

    It is my firm belief that everything is true but needs perspective and intellectual application. What is the fight up about? Designed to create disharmony?

    Christianity and any religion that holds up a god is folly. It may very well turn out that what they trying to label as atheism, is the only principle that acknowledges the true Creator. How ironic!


  31. Eddie

    “We do not live in a “perfect world”, but the universe screams “Intelligent Design”. One would have to deliberately close his or her mind not to acknowledge”.

    That is exactly what I mean by maturing. It is not yet perfect, so what is there to acknowledge? That you and I are the creation and that you should seek the Creator within the Creation? I am the Creation and any part of the Creation that seeks dominance over me cannot be the Creator.

    Anything that can speak to me as I speak to others, or is as material as me as I am material to others; that can have children that can come down to earth and have sex with human females and have children, cannot be The Creator.

    So the next thing you have to tell me about is the immaculate conception, because if that is so, many cows have immaculate conceptions. Tell me about surrogate motherhood. Mary was “filled” with the spirit. Was it insemination or the implant of an egg?

    Ask yourself the question, why do we feel that we should not ask these questions? What is so blasphemous about these questions? What is the secret?

    Answer: Could only be to establish dominion over Man by mystifying the truth.


  32. By the way, many parents try to control their children by mystifying the truth. It is part of the character of the ownership and use of intelligence.


  33. One can easily understand the persistence of the Christians in pushing their beliefs as they think that they are mandated to ‘preach the gospel….’.

    However the zeal and tenacity of the doubters has confounded the Bushman.
    Why do you folks care….? Why does it bother you that Grenville, GP and Zoe believe in a ‘God’ who you know to be non-existent?

    @ Rohan
    Is it not about time that we are told exactly what you DO believe?

    So far we know that since you have determined that most Christians have silly beliefs, then God must be an idiot.

    We also know that since you, (a mere sheep on my farmers farm,) fail to understand the farmer’s master plan then the farmer must be a jackass. (…but then again you are an American sheep .. and traditionally that matters)

    I happen to agree with your contempt for many of the religious doctrines, but at least they put something out there…
    …so will we learn what you do believe Rohan?

    @ ROK
    Man ROK, you real hard to follow. I believe that you read too much. (don’t mind MME) ….. If you believe that there was a ‘CREATOR’ then why would this entity not be the ‘God’ referred to by the various religions? Mind you, they may not get it right, but why have you determined that their INTENT is otherwise?

    @ Not Saved
    I strongly suspect that your dedication to this cause is related to your secretly wanting to BE SAVED….LOL

    @ All
    Went to bed too early and now fully awake – your bad luck…ROTFL


  34. @BT

    “If you believe that there was a ‘CREATOR’ then why would this entity not be the ‘God’ referred to by the various religions? Mind you, they may not get it right, but why have you determined that their INTENT is otherwise?”

    Not sure i understand the last part but certainly, the Creator is about everything and not simply about the manipulation of material. It is the difference between the carpenter who makes and even creates things and who made the Carpenter and the tree.

    So the carpenter is able to use the tree to make things, but the Carpenter does not make the tree. He can grow the tree but knows nothing about how to make the tree come alive save feeding it.

    It is blaringly evident that the God of the bible is about control of mankind. As I said in my last post, the mystifying of the many things which are not to be questioned is terribly suspect in itself. Who has what to hide?

    When we put it all together and especially considering the Sumerian and Egyptian experience, there can be no doubt that there is a falsity about the bible. If there is a falsity about it, why would you believe in it?


  35. @BT

    “Why have you determined that their INTENT is otherwise?”

    “Intent” is a good word… and while intent speaks to credibility, it is quite different from the reality. So while my intent may be good, the result may be bad if my knowledge of what I am doing is faulty.

    Under the circumstances, the bible is faulty and because of their strong belief in this fairy tale, christians do not know what they do. That makes them an enemy of the truth.

  36. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “If a list of outstanding scientists who were agnostic was drawn up, would that give agnosticism validity?”
    ————

    Validity Deng? As I indicated to Not Saved further up the thread, I was responding to the accusations made about the value of the Judeo-Christian philosophy/belief system to the development of human beings. You can argue with GP and Zoe over validity. 🙂

    By the way Deng… in your list of influential extentialists, I note with interest your omission of the person widely regarded as the father of the exentialism… the highly religious (but highly critical of the ‘empty formalities of the church’) Soren Kierkegaard.

    Here is some of his work…

    “What the age needs is not a genius—it has had geniuses enough, but a martyr, who in order to teach men to obey would himself be obedient unto death. What the age needs is awakening. And therefore someday, not only my writings but my whole life, all the intriguing mystery of the machine will be studied and studied. I never forget how God helps me and it is therefore my last wish that everything may be to his honour.”

  37. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    ‘existentialism’… LOL… trying to type too fast.

  38. Deng Xiaping Avatar

    OK MME

    I hope you got my suggestion that all of the “western value system” today may not be compatible with Judeo-Christian precepts (which is why Kierkegaard is not in my list).


  39. MME

    “that everything may be to his honour.”

    Now this is the problem christians have. They accredit everything good that happens to them to a god without realising that the hand of the real Creator dwells in them; is part of them; and that they are part of the Creator.

    There is therefore, no need to worship an external god that is of the same image and likeness. They believe in a god that dwells outside them and that god is a HE (male). I am very careful to distinguish between a god and The Creator because that god was also created by The Creator.

    It is no more than how Black people have come to worship the White man and that anything white is good and anything black is bad. This is the same approach that christians take to their god.

    Nothing should be to the honour of the external when a whole universe exist in you. It is you that have the power, even the same bible tells you so. For example the woman that touched Christ garment and the soldier who did not want him to go to his house.

    In the story, he told her that it was her faith that healed her and in the case of the soldier he told his audience that if any had the faith as much as a grain of mustard seed, they could move mountains. These are not the only examples.

    These were enlightening moments because all the while christ is saying that to the father is through him, here he unwittingly comes back to show that the true power lies in the self.

    Remember also, he said god helps those who helps themselves. Again showing where true power lies.

    Another slip up is the verse, “ye shall know them by their fruit”. Just look at the fruit of christianity; a belligerent lot. How are we living as a people under christianity? At each others throats; it supported brutal slavery; it is the root of stigma and discrimination; etc.


  40. Let us raise the standard of this debate to reflect Barbados’ development needs:

    When people borrow money, is it ethical and moral for the lender to charge interest?

    Should this continue, especially in light of the fact that interest rates have been cut – thereby suggesting that interest is an moral wron and causes problems.


  41. Not Saved, man, unlike most evolutionists who have swallowed this dastardly lie, you have the hook-line, and sincker, stuck in your throat, choaking on this ‘transitional’ nonsense!

    This ‘…so-called lobe-finned fish that lived 375 million years ago, (Hogwash!) is a classic example of a transitional form, (LIE! LIE! LIE!) that bridges the evolutionary gap, (pseudo-science!) between two quite different types of animals.”

    Just another vicious BIG LIE, as was the supposed Reptile-Bird Transition, the ‘Archaeopteryx’ was almost always cited by evolutionists as the best example of an evolutionary transition; this was clearly a ‘mosaic’ creature, since it had no transitional structures, just like the ‘Tiktaalik Rosae’ another evolutionary ‘HOAX’ can’t work, as you all evolutionists/atheist, have your feet, ‘Firmly Planted in Mid-Air’ nothing to stand on, grabbing on to any little thing, that would give your postulations, some ‘wing’, or ‘leg’ to either fly or walk on! Each time you attempt this folly, your pseudo-science is further revealed for what it IS, an utter falsity, which comes crashing down in the swamp of the most gross intellectual dishonesty, ever presented and witnessed by humanity from so-called scientists, what a shame you all are to true science!!

    And you have the gall to ask me about ‘dishonest design, or just plain stupidity’ man, you and your evolutionists are the living, empirical varification, of such ‘dishonest design AND plain stupidity, on planet earth!!

    Evolution, the fossils, STILL say NO, NO, NO!!!


  42. Bush Tea,
    You asked what I believed. I don’t think I could have made it clearer that I consider biblical stories and all other accounts of the supernatural as fairy tales. To answer your question, I believe in what can be observed, tested for, or examined. Things that we can use to make predictive statements about, then test those predictions, and have our results confirmed.
    This is how we examine the reality among us.
    And yes, this can include things that we can’t see. We know gravity is there, we’ve calculated it’s pull on the objects on earth, and we can test our prediction about this. I’m not asking you to jump out the nearest window, but if you did so unaided…we are pretty confident about what would happen. And if you jumped out that window 100 times, then we know what would happen all 100 times.
    Sure you could flap your hands and start to fly on the 99th time, but until that happens, we assume that the theory of gravity is confirmed and that we are subject to that law.
    Until you can present me with ONE single case where a person jumped out a window and flapped their arms and flew away, it would not be something I could believe in. This is how thinking people approach things.
    Christians, don’t need this evidence. Their parents/pastors/teachers told them that someone could flap their hands and fly, then showed them a book where someone flapped their hands and flew, and they automatically believe it happened.
    That’s the difference. So, If you that’s the way you do it, good luck. If you believe ridiculous things, you’ve earned your ridicule.


  43. Regarding the invaluable, immense, contribution the historic Judeo/Christian world view has made to mankind, and western civilization in particular, which many do not still understand nor recognize; I’ll post again, some of what I’ve already done on a previous thread, as a reminder.

    The central focus is from the Reformation, Christianity, and Modern Man.

    The Reformation of the sixteenth century, is, next to the birth of Christianity (the Church) first century A.D. the greatest event in history.

    It markes the end of the Middle Ages, and the beginning of modern man.

    The Reformation gave directly or indirectly, a mighty impulse to every forward movement, and made Protestantism the chief propelling force in the history of modern civilization; a fact still not recognized by many.

    The age of the Reformation bears a strong resemblance to the first century. Both are rich beyond any other period in the ‘transforming’ power of the Resurrected, ascended Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ; working IN and through the indwelling Holy Spirit, in the hearts and lives of those yeilded to Him.

    Literally, the turning points in the history of mankind; which are felt to this very day, and will be felt until His Glorious second advent, as the season, generation to which He alluded, appears to be at hand.

    The Reformation refashioned the world from the innermost depths of the human soul, parched from the Mediaeval Period (A.D. 590-1294), which also encompassed ‘The Dark Ages’ (A.D. 1049-1294), from Gregory VII, to Boniface VIII; the decline of the PAPACY and the preparation for ‘Modern Christianity’ from Boniface VIII, to Martin Luther (A.D. 1294-1517).

    The way for Christianity was prepared by Moses and the Prophets, the dispersion of the Jews, the conquest of Alexander the Great, the language and literature of Greece, the arms and laws of Rome, the decay of idolatry, the spread of skepticism, the aspirations after a new revelation, the hopes of a coming Messiah, The Lord Jesus Christ.

    The Reformation was therefore preceded and NECESSITATED by the corruption of the Papacy, the decline of monasticism and scholastic theology; the growth of mysticism, the revival of letters, the Greek and Roman classics, the inventing of the printing press, the discovery of the new world, the publication of the Greek New Testament, the general spirit of enquiry, the striving for independance and personal freedom. In both centuries (A.D. 33-100) and the sixteenth century, we hear the sovereign voice of Almighty God, calling LIGHT out of DARKNESS.

    The sixteenth century IS the age of the renaissance, rebirth of Apostolic Christianity, Almighty God, in the face of The Lord Jesus Christ, who alone can set mankind free from any bondage.

    As Luther wrote in 1522: “If you read all the annals of the past, you will find NO century like this since the birth of Christ.”

    Catholicism is legal Christianity, which served to the Barbarian nations of the Middle Ages, as a necessary school of discipline; whereas, Protestantism is Evangelical Christianity which answers the age of Independent Manhood. Catholicism is stepped in hierarchical, ritualistic, unscriptural bondage; Protestantism in Biblical, democratic, spiritual, and progressive. Catholicism is ruled by the principle of authority, Protestantism is ruled by the Biblical imperative of freedom..

    Necessity of a Reformation.

    The corruption and abuses of the Latin church had long been the complaint of the best men, and even general councils.

    The Papacy was secularized, and became a selfish tyrannical yoke, that got more and more unbearable. The Priests’ chief duty was to perform his magic words, the miracle of Transubstantiation, and to offer the Sacrifice of the Mass, for the living and the dead, in a foreign language, Latin!

    Good works were measured by the quantity, rather than the quality, and vitiated by the principle of meritoriousness, which appealed to the selfish motive of reward. Remission of sin could be bought with money; a shameful traffic in Indulgences was carried on under the Pope’s sanction for fulthy lucre, as well as the building of St.Peter’s Dome, and caused the outburst of moral indignation which was the beginning of the Reformation and fearful judgment on the Church of Rome.

    But, the Roman church in the critical moment in the sixteenth century, resisted reform with all its might, and forced the issue: either NO Reformation at all, or a reformation in opposition to Rome.

    Much is due, no doubt, to the extravagance of the Protestant opposition, but still more to the intolerance and stubbornness of Roman resistance. The Papal court used against the Reformation for a long time only carnal weapons of political influence, diplomatic intrigue, secular wealth, haughty persecution. It in effect, repeated the course of the Jewish hierarchy, which crucified the Lord Jesus Christ, and cast His Apostles out of the synagogue.

    For, it was evidently the design of the sovereign Hand of Almight God in providence, to rekindle, reinvigorate, reinstate, reinforce, rejuvenate, the FIRE of the Holy Spirit, that came upon the early first century Church, and this could only be done by the Reformation fire, burning in the heart of Martin Luther.

    The Reformation went back to the first principles of Historic, Apostolic, first century Christianity, in order to go forward; based entirely on the Word of God, the Bible, forever sealed in Heaven.

    No greater movement in history , except Christianity itself, was so widely and throughly prepared as the Protestant Reformation.

    The spirit and aim of evangelical Protestantism is best expressed by Paul in his anti-Judaistic Epistle to the Galatians:

    “Knowing that a man IS NOT justified by the works of the law, but by faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and NOT by the works of the law, for by the works of the law, shall NO flesh be justified.” (Gal. 2:16).

    Christian freedom is so awesome a blessing, that no amount of abuse can justify a relapse into the state of spititual despotism and slavery. But, only those who have enjoyed its liberty, peace, and joy, can properly appreciate it.

    The Reformation removed the sacramental, sacerdotal, priestcraft obstruction which the Papal church had interposed between Christ and believers. It once again, opened the door to direct access and union with Jesus Christ, the Only Mediator between God and man, and made the Gospel accessible to every reader without permission of a priest.

    Not a few Popes, such as Ergius III., Benedict IX., John XXIII., and Alexander VI., were guilty of the darkest crimes of depraved human nature; and yet called themselves successors of Peter, and vicars of Christ. How will defend the Papal crusades against the Albigenses and the Waldenses, the horrors of the Inquisition, the Papal jubilee over the Massacre of St. Bartholomew, and all those bloody persecutions of innocent people for no other crime but that of opposing the tyranny of Rome, and dissenting from her dogma and so-called tradition?

    But, the church of Rome in her official capacity has never repudiated the principle of persecution by which its practice was justified. On the contrary, Pope Gregory XVI, declared liberty of conscience and worship an insanity (deliramentum), and Pius IX, in his “Syllabus” of 1864 denounced it among the pernicious and pestilential errors of modern times.

    Who will stand up for the bull of excommunication against Luther, with its threats of burning him and his books and refusing the consolations of religion to every house or community which should take him or any of his followers? If that bull be Christian, then we must close our eyes against the plain teaching of Christ and the Gospels.

    What Did the Proptestant Reformation Secure For Modern Man?

    It secured freedom in religion, and as a legitimate consequence, also intellectual, political, and civil freedom. It made the Word of God with its instructions and comfort accessible to all. This is its triumphant vindication.

    Consider the teeming Protestant literature in every department of learning, science and art, etc, etc, universities, charitable institutions and missionary stations scatered all over the world. Surely, the Reformation can stand the test.

    But, just like the Roman Catholic church, who tyrannized so many over its despotic rule, masquerading as Christians, so too did the Anglican church, masquerading as Christians enforce the capture of Africans for the transatlantic slave trade, and right here in B’dos and other Caribbean colonies, all the while posing as the ‘Church’ of Jesus Christ, likwise, brought ‘hell’ to bear on the African slaves.

    I say this, that NO one claiming to be a Christian, could ever have done what the Popes did, neither what the Anglican church did to black slaves, and say, that Jesus Christ is their Saviour! NO, NO, NO, these so-called priest of Catholicism and the Church of England, were FALSE prophets, and brought terrible disservice, to say the very least, to the cause of Christ, and His Church.

    But, that is another story in itself!


  44. @Zoe

    “I say this, that NO one claiming to be a Christian, could ever have done what the Popes did, neither what the Anglican church did to black slaves, and say, that Jesus Christ is their Saviour! NO, NO, NO, these so-called priest of Catholicism and the Church of England, were FALSE prophets, and brought terrible disservice, to say the very least, to the cause of Christ, and His Church.”
    ……………………………………………

    I think you better check yourself. You obviously don’t know what you are saying. I question whether you are truly a Christian because you, like us, are condemning christianity.

    Christianity is not what you get in a corner and decide. It has a culture and it has a practice and it has a purpose and the sooner you realise that the better.

    All the so-called denominations have strayed from the original church and are no longer part of the flock. You have to make up your mind who you are and you certainly cannot claim to be a christian if you bashing your leaders like that. Maybe now you will start to get an understanding of what we are saying.

    Do not think that you can separate yourself from them and remain a christian, you would be something other than a christian. It will only be a matter of time that you will look back at the bible and start condemning the atrocities that occurred in the bible the same way you are condemning the original church leaders.

    In any case, what is the difference between the atrocities in the bible and the ones you identified by the Popes? Ask yourself the question Zoe. I know you have eyes to see that if you continue to prop up christianity in any form you are condoning the actions of those popes as well as the Church of England. Remember that your Bible is the King James Version.


  45. Who is “Christian”? Maybe Ted Haggard or Jimmy Swaggart or Jim Bakker or Jippy Doyle or T. Wayne Bishop…check out:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_evangelist_scandals

    What about Bob Jones University and its racial segregation of students?

    The American pentecostal evangelical branch of Christianity seems to be headed by many very sleazy, corrupt, money hungry and sexually immoral set of people.

    People in glass houses!


  46. Zoe, I can quote Martin Luther too…

    Here he is on the Jews…….

    First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, ……………

    Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. …………..

    Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them…………………

    Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. ………………

    Fifth, I advise that safe conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. ……………….

    Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God’s blessing in a good and worthy cause.

    Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.


  47. Rohan, Rohan…. oh dear!!

    According to your post today (rohan // May 4, 2009 at 1:55 pm) you believe in nothing.

    1 – You think that ‘reality’ is a commodity that is best measured using our human senses.

    2 – (you lost me with the bit about flapping one’s hands to attempt to fly)

    3 – you revert to your familiar tactic of accusing Christians of naivety (they believe things that they have not seen)

    Rohan, I suggest to you that if there was a pecking order of philosophical positions, then those at the bottom of the ladder would be those who believe in nothing.

    Our world is much too complex a place for any serious thinking person to believe in NOTHING.

    Wiser persons constantly question their current beliefs and seek to achieve a higher level of understanding and conformity. In this regard, there may be still hope for the Christians…..

    … but to believe in nothing beyond the obvious …??? …. well let me put it this way, … that is what animals do….

    You should think carefully about my farm analogy again….. especially about a particular sheep coming to conclusions about the farmer’s overall intent and objectives based mainly on what other sheep -most of them just as clueless as he is- says and does….

    How would you rate the probability that this sheep’s assessment of the farmer is close to reality?

    …finally, would you not advise such a sheep to conduct his OWN search for answers – independent of the protestations of other misguided sheep- before coming to conclusions about the farmer’s strategic plan???

    ….just asking.


  48. Bush Tea,
    “Would I advise such sheep to conduct his own search for answers?”

    You haven’t searched for anything. You simply believe what your parents, pastor, and teacher told you.

    If you searched for anything, tell me on what basis you made the decision to go with the God of the bible versus all the others?

    WHAT WAS THE BASIS FOR YOUR DECISION?

    After You thoroughly examing all the other Gods, you DECIDED on Jesus right? And it was just a coincidence that Jesus was the same God that everyone around you worshipped right?

    Seriously, you wouldn’t like that sheep analogy so much unless you were a sheep.

    As for me believing in nothing? I would rather believe in nothing, than believe and blindly follow the murderous, rape promoting, slavery loving creature that you bow down to.

    Peace.


  49. @ Not Saved, Luther was not the Reformation, he was just one of a number of men God used to bring about the Reformation, which was, and still is larger and greater than any one man.

    Secondly, Luther can only be judged by the very historical, cultural, ethnic, and religious system he was then been delivered from, of that era, for it is only against this very background that we can then, maybe, understand is disdain for the Jewish people, which was very much a part of Roman Catholicism’s attitude toward the Jews at that time.

    Conversion, not Justification, as in Luther’s case, or for that matter any one, is a process, not a single event, as he still had a number of issues theologically, that he needed to sort out, some of which he probably never did before he died.

    Also, there has always been, and will be up until Christ returns, rogues, false prophets, money hungry evangelists, etc, etc, within the church, mixed up with the genuine believers of the ‘Body of Christ’ masquerading as sheep in wolves clothings. See Matthew 13: 24-30, ‘The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares’ where Jesus teaches on the ‘tares’ false deceptive so-called believers, and the true, genuine believers.

    Genuine, true, Christians, look to Jesus Christ, not men, as men/women, will always fail us, no matter how many Pastors, Evangelists may fail from time to time, my relationship is with the Lord Jesus Christ, not any man! For He will do the sorting out and ultimate judging when He comes!


  50. Why so hasty rohan? ..don’t pre judge me.

    What do you know about my beliefs or how I arrived at them?

    I already told you that Bush tea does not fit your known stereotypes.

    Have you considered instead of focusing on what others around you are doing, or what they believe, looking at the bigger picture?

    One approach, if you can agree with ROK (and all thinking persons) that all the available evidence points to some ‘Creator’ or designer (my personal label is BBE – Big Boss Engineers).,,,, is to start from that position and work forward.

    i.e as a sheep, you look around the farm and conclude – based on the barns, fences, water points and buildings that there has to be a ‘farmer designer’ behind the operation.

    Your mission (should you accept it) is to work out the intent and plan of the farmer for his farm – and thus how you as a sheep could maximize your existence on the farm…

    …..and PLEASE rohan, if it appears that the farmer does a number of cruel or illogical things, (like kill sheep , or shear them) it is FAR more likely that the interpreting sheep is misguided than that the farmer is …. OK?

    so no more of your sheep logic….

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