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The Bible And The Qur'an, Brothers Kept Apart

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brotherskeptapartFellow blogger Weighed in the Balance has undertaken the ambitious and highly risky task of writing a book which as he terms it “is a comparative analysis of the Bible and the Qur’an, and it assumes that both books are correct.  If God is the principal author of each book, as Christians and Muslims claim, then a comparative analysis should reveal harmony between the principal teachings of both.  This is what I have found.  Hence, Christians and Muslims have been kept apart by their religious leaders who have taught their adherents that God has rejected the other group.” The topic matter was thought to be so contentious that he originally penned his book using a pseudonym.

Phillip’s book is titled Brothers Kept Apart and can be purchased on Amazon.com at a reasonable price. Some members of the BU family have already demonstrated that they are students of the religions. Brother Phillips advises that the book represents 30 years of research and 7 years of critical review and he stands ready to defend his thesis.

It is no secret that the BU household has demonstrated a keen interest in the religions or what some people disparagingly refer to as dogmas. It is a fascinating subject and one which is shrouded in mystery, allegories, parables, fables and some theology  Religion has been used through the ages to edify and destroy man’s existence. Of interest to all through the ages has been the cooption of  religion to pit Islam versus Christianity, East versus West by geo-political motivated groups.

For a synopsis of the book the BU family is welcomed to visit Phillips’s blog. We look forward to a fascinating discussion and take the opportunity to wish him every success.

What he has attempted demonstrates courage of conviction, a characteristic in scarce supply.

.

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1,124 responses to “The Bible And The Qur'an, Brothers Kept Apart”

  1. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ Rohan

    I don’t mind having a go at your question, but unlike MME, I am long past the age where I can handle a ‘cage bout’ as David have classified this match. LOL.

    The first problem with your question is that it is too simplistic. We will need to agree on some definitions and terminologies first – otherwise we will be arguing at cross purposes.

    From your question-
    1) -IMHO, you have no idea who or what God is.

    2) You are unaware of the purpose of life on this earth

    3) You are a fair-minded, caring human being and concerned about the pain and suffering around us.

    4) Unlike most people, you recognize the illogic and folly of the religions of this world.

    IMHO, that puts you in the category of ‘one who knows not, and who knows that he knows not’…. (a rare breed.)

    Now for your question_
    ***********************************
    If this were a human being would you be comfortable having him as your neighbor?

    Yes. Or. No.”
    *************************************
    No – although if he did not have a loud stereo like my current neighbor I would consider changing…

    So what is the point of the question?

    Point 1.
    There is no comparison at all between God and humans. One will need to adopt two completely DIFFERENT perspectives in order to properly discuss the concepts that you have raised.
    From the human perspective, you are generally correct in your analysis. We have a mess!!! we have hunger, war, suffering, pain, …. it is BAD out there.

    Why does God allow this? why does he not use his ‘power’ to correct all these wrongs?

    ….this is where the other perspective is needed in order to understand.

    The FACT is that the conditions that exists on this earth (including all the ills) are CRITICAL to the (spiritual) all-encompassing purpose that is being worked as we speak.

    MME called it ‘growing souls’. I prefer to see it as a crucible designed to mold and cultivate RIGHTEOUS CHARACTER. ….. and it is a critical component of a brilliant project being executed by the Big Boss Engineers that we commonly refer to as God.

    This ‘OTHER PERSPECTIVE’ is that of the beings who actually initiated the reality that we know as life on earth.
    ….from this ‘other perspective’ your neighbor question becomes a bit …well petty doesn’t it?

  2. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    @BT,

    and you have come to this analysis, how?

  3. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    @BT,

    a “holy book” by any chance?

  4. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    @BT,

    righteous character but unbelief, what then?

  5. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Here is a very interesting account of anthropologist and former evangelical christian, Dan Everett and the Piraha tribe,

    ****

    “Everett came to see his religion as fundamentally coercive. His academic studies were ultimately designed to help him translate the Bible into Pirahã. When they heard the word of God, his evangelic mission believed, they would be converted. Everett translated the Book of Luke, read it to the Pirahã and they were utterly unmoved. By 1985, he had privately lost his faith.

    “It’s wrong to try and convert tribal societies,” he says. “What should the empirical evidence for religion be? It should produce peaceful, strong, secure people who are right with God and right with the world. I don’t see that evidence very often. So then I find myself with the Pirahã. They have all these qualities that I am trying to tell them they could have. They are the ones who are living life the way I’m saying it ought to be lived, they just don’t fear heaven and hell.”

    ***

    His loss of faith lead to his divorce from his wife who was also a christian missionary….

    ***

    “She believes that if the Pirahãs reject the gospel it’s because it hasn’t been communicated clearly. I believe it has been communicated clearly and they reject it because it’s utterly irrelevant.”

    ***

    If the purpose of life is “growing souls” , what is the relevance of religion?

  6. Straight talk Avatar
    Straight talk

    To call a halt this “mauling” by these unbelievers BT is it true that the King James’ Bible is inconsequential to your analysis of existential purpose?

    You have really perceived a higher dimension ( true character ) rather than Zoe’s evangelical bigotry?

    Are you a property developer? ……LOL

  7. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    Actually ST, I am fascinated by the fervency of Not Saved’s persistence in doubting that there could be a logical, engineered purpose behind the experience that we call life.

    Normal ‘non -believers’ just go away quietly and do something important – like play solitaire or hearts. LOL.
    NS and Rohan are special people.

    @ Not Saved.

    I am a difficult believer to argue with for the following reasons.

    1 – I do not care if you believe me or not

    2- I do not defend any religion – because I find them all flawed.

    3 – I do not read all of those exotic books like MME and GP. (to busy with solitaire LOL).

    4 My position was arrived at by decades of persistent scientific research and PRAYERS.

    5 – Finally, I have a special gift.

    …I guess that means that I don’t give two hoots about Everett or the Pirahã.

    What Everett what?!!

    But I can tell you what BBE is up to and I do understand why things are as they are….

    …and if you ask me any really hard questions, I will just pass them on to MME… LOL

  8. Straight talk Avatar
    Straight talk

    Even though you never give a straight answer,BT, your level of profundity is underwhelming.
    Over to you MME…pass the Doorly’s dear.

  9. Gear Box Avatar
    Gear Box

    Viagra gone up tah $40.00 a pop…! My GOD

    AAAAAAAAAAAAAghhhhhhhhhhhh

  10. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ ST
    If you want simple answers then I recommend CNN or BBC.

    Most advanced subjects are addressed by complex answers -often needing ground work such as definitions, references and sources to be agreed up front.

    ….Do you really think that Bush Tea can walk up to a stranger and in short, simple sound bites explain the purpose of life?

    ….not even MME…

  11. Straight talk Avatar
    Straight talk

    Gear Box….Save money are you manual?

  12. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    BT says……

    “But I can tell you what BBE is up to and I do understand why things are as they are….”

    ——

    Now we are in agreement,that truly is a special gift .

  13. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Bush Tea,
    I saw some compliments in your writings, so let me thank you for them before I complete dissect what you said 🙂

    Haha, nah, just messing.

    What I will say though is that you conveniently focused on the things God “allows” to happen and ignored the horrific things that God actually did.

    How do you reconcile those things I listed? The rape, the murder, the slavery. Didn’t God know these things were wrong at the time?

    Like MME said, he wouldn’t live next to a human being who did those things? How could folks then feel comfortable praising a God who did those same things?

    Shouldn’t God know better? Shouldn’t he be held to higher standards than you hold human beings?

  14. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “sounds like my friend MME is a gnostic. what books outside the NT canon do you accept as “scripture”?”
    ——————

    LOL Not Saved.

    You like you trying to get me burnt at the stake… and BAFBFP there on the sidelines handing out matches and gasoline. BAFBFP… doan fool yuhself, GP is the undisputed Scriptural heavyweight here.

    I am not a Gnostic. I have only read some of the apocryphal books. Some of the teachings I agree with and others conflict with my beliefs, but for me none of these books (so far) add any value to those already in the Bible.
    I generally accept the 27 books of the New Testament, but have challenges with two in particular… James and Revelation. I am more comfortable with James after reading some Bible notes by Dr. Constable that GP referred me to, but I have my doubts about the value of Revelation… it just seems a bit ‘off-base’. Actually, I find it bares closer resemblance to the gnostic works than the rest of the New Testament canon.

  15. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    @Rohan,

    You never heard of Keats?!?… man I now starting to understand the problem. You spending too much time on the sciences… you need to set aside some time for the arts… Keats, Tennyson, Frost, Milton… and another of my favorites… Edna St. Vincent Millay…

    Cut if you will, with Sleep’s dull knife,
    Each day to half its length, my friend;
    The years that Time take off my life,
    He’ll take from off the other end!

    (Not Saved seems to have taken that one to heart judging from those 4:00 am posts)

    Google some of these poets… their work is freely available online. Trust me you won’t regret it.

  16. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Well Revelation was likely only included in the canon because it thought to have been written by the apostle john.

    It may have been written by a ‘john’

    but it was surely not written by john, son of Zebedee

  17. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Actually Rohan… you should start with Milton’s Paradise Lost.

  18. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    MME,

    Well you doubt one book, 26 to go !

    LOL

  19. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ Rohan

    I realize that you feel strongly about this issue of things that you are saying that ‘God did’- things that would make for bad neighbors.

    …however, let us look at that ‘other perspective..’

    Suppose you developed a farm, with a variety of animals. You set rules and regulations and various restrictions for your animals. An example – the dogs must not attack and kill the sheep…. rules which you enforce.

    Does it sound natural to you for one of your bitches to hold you – the owner, and maker of animal rules, to these same rules and complain when you slaughter a sheep for your Sunday lunch?

    …and would that make you a bad dog neighbor?

    …Or would you agree that you, as farmer had a much more complex plan and reason in mind that supersedes the day to day ‘animal rules’?

    …just asking…

  20. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    @BT,

    You certainly have a special gift..

  21. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Bush Tea… you trying to shut down BU or whu?

    Nobody goes to a wrestling match to see a wrestler take out his opponent in the first round. 🙂

  22. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    We all do NS.

    I just appreciate mine a lot that’s all

  23. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Bush Tea…
    Haha, that was actually great!

    To answer your question though:

    There is no plan or reason that you could convince me off that could justify raping a woman or enslaving another human being. There are things that civilized humans recognize are inherently wrong.

    Interesting analogy though, I’ll give you that, but it breaks down when you consider the severity of the atrocities the farmer commited AND PROMISES to commit against his sheep. We’re not talking swift mercy killings here, we are talking atrocities of the worst kind.

  24. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    LOL MME,
    You thought Bush Tea’s analogy was a seriously compelling argument?

    Seriously? So we are God’s creation, thus we can’t think for ourselves and question him when he does things we know to be wrong?

    Are there things that are just wrong? Inherently wrong?

    Here I’ll help you: Raping a woman is an immoral act! If you give up your right to say so because God is the one ordering the action, then I really don’t now what to say.

  25. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    Rohan my friend,
    …..believe me when I tell you that the plan and reason behind BBE’s project is such, that if you could really understand the value, would be worthy of the total cruel destruction of everything that currently exists on this earth.

    …and that is not to say that life is not valuable and desirable – just to outline the unbelievable reality of the REAL goal of our existence.

  26. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    ….and Rohan, there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with questioning and doubting.
    I like your attitude – …so much like mine many years ago….

  27. Grenville Avatar
    Grenville

    Hi Rohan:

    I did not sidestep the verse, I simply told you to read the Bible so that you would not misinterpret it. You have quoted a verse, but you have completely ignored its context.

    As you are well aware, God is very patient with nations. The Amorites and other nations that Israel displaced behaved wickedly, including sacrificing their children to idols. God waited until that generation had died and waited for their children to behave responsibly. When they did not, then God waited for the grand children, and then the great grand-children and so on. God waited for approximately 500 years, until their wickedness became full and triggered judgement.

    There are specific instructions that Moses gave for executing this judgement. Where the culture of wickedness was too influential so that it would destroy other nations, then the judgment is that every thing that breathes should die. Where the culture was not that influential, then after the men had died on the battlefield, then the women could be looked after by becoming wives of the Israelite men. There is specific behaviour to ensure that such women were not mistreated or unfaired in such circumstances.

    Rohan, you claimed to know all of this. Why then would you intentionally try to mislead other readers?

    Regards,
    Grenville

  28. Deng Xiaping Avatar
    Deng Xiaping

    Bush tea likes dis farmer analogy thing too much. The farmer sets up rules like “dogs must not attack and kill sheep” but then sends his dogs to attack and kill sheep on the farm next door while proclaiming his concern for the well being for all sheep.

  29. Grenville Avatar
    Grenville

    Hi Not Saved:

    I am unaware of anyone who has actually read the research who then disagreed with it. I am concerned that persons would simply dismiss it without reading it, and then make conclusive statements about what they have refused to read.

    You asked about the Gospel that Mohammed instructed his followers to read, and believe. The likely candidate is the Diatessaron of Tatian, which was commonly available in Syria about 100 years before Mohammed.

    Regards,
    Grenville

  30. Deng Xiaping Avatar
    Deng Xiaping

    Pity the Amorites couldn’t give their side of the story. Does this explain the Israeli approach to the Palestinians?

  31. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    Bush Tea like all kinds of analogies Deng.
    …I do not understand your confusion.

    If I am the farmer and owner of everything on the farm, who, but me should decide what rules to apply where and when it suited my purpose?

    …One would have to be quite simple to expect to judge the farmer by using rules designed for a set of animals on the farm.

    The real challenge, it would appear to me, is to try to understand the overall intent and tactical objective of the farmer.

    Now If we can understand the farmer’s overall plan – THEN we could make sense of his seemingly contradictory actions…..

    ….but to continue to base your arguments on ‘sheep rules’ and seek to extrapolate them to apply to the farmer is beyond simple…

    ….it seems to me…

  32. Deng Xiaping Avatar
    Deng Xiaping

    BT, I was trying to follow your analogy.
    I am going to bow out of this thread because quite frankly none of this making any sense to me so I going to play solitaire!

  33. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    David… my attempt at humour at 11:47 pm was insensitive and inappropriate… please delete it.

  34. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @BT

    I think the fullness of your farmer analogy is not being picked up. I think that it is being lost because you did not explain that the farmer did not create the sheep, nor did he create himself; although the way he behaved the animals would think so. (God) the farmer is an exploiter. This explains: why fair and unfair does not matter; the motive of (God) the farmer for creating rules; and the fact that there is no concern for the well-being of all sheep, only his.

    Actually this is the perfect analogy. Sheep are killed when (God) the farmer has to make money and put food on the table. He can’t have the dog killing sheep because there is no profit in that.

    Killings are therefore planned and engineered and from the animals perspective, it would leave them bewildered because they are taught to preserve life, and hence (God) the farmer killing the sheep would be seen as a sense less act by the dogs, who could be sentenced to death for killing sheep.

    Of course, the dogs can always explain the senseless killing by saying God (the farmer) knows best. We however know that the farmer, even though designated as God is not the Creator. The farmer is only God because he has the technology and natural intelligence to control everything on the farm.

    One other thing. The dogs would be sentenced to immediate death for attacking the farmer too.

    Finally, you notice how dread the farmer has to be in order to stay in control. Much like the God of the Bible. Note also that with all the dreadness, God (the farmer) will still send his angels (farm workers) to tend the population and make sure that all the sheep are properly fed, watered and happy, i.e. until God (the Farmer) is ready for them. An angel could be thrown off the farm for harming sheep too.

    This analogy has great potential.

    BTW, thanks to all the pioneers and fore-runners for their compliments.

  35. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @ Deng Xiaping // April 29, 2009 at 12:07 am

    “BT, I was trying to follow your analogy.
    I am going to bow out of this thread because quite frankly none of this making any sense to me so I going to play solitaire!”

    The last man that retired to play solitaire was caught masturbating.

  36. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @Grenville

    “I am concerned that persons would simply dismiss it without reading it, and then make conclusive statements about what they have refused to read.”

    Do you think you would have to read new research on “Reasons to believe in Santa Claus” when you already know that Santa Claus is a myth?

    I have probably done as much or more research than you for over 35 years, only thing I did not write a book… but given all the research materials available, I think I came to more realistic conclusions than you did and can put all religion in perspective… and can help you explain them too; even those I have never heard about.

    I do not think I can put my 35+ years of research aside just so and i think you should take that into consideration before passing judgment.

    I want you to know that your god is here, have you seen his “chariots”? Well I have been seeing them for more than 29 years; probably longer than you were doing research.

  37. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ ROK

    Man why you don’t get your own analogy nuh? you going come here and mash up Bush Tea’s good little thing?

    How you get my simple little farmer mixed up with “…chariots that you have been seeing for more that 29 years?” LOL

    …and how you mean my farmer did not create the farm? He did!! …and the reason that he appears to be dread is that he is focused on his strategic objective for the farm.

    When Rohan complains then that the farmer ‘killed off a whole field of sheep with fire and brimstone’ this could have been done to control the spread of a deadly disease that threatened the whole farm. (what does a farmer do when threatened by foot and mouth?)

    …..of course to a watching cow in a nearby field, this must appear to be a dread and dastardly action…..

  38. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “Animal Farm Part II: The Cage Fight”

    …I sitting out round 2 bo. 🙂

  39. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    The Farmer clearly ain’ got nah plan for and nah cause to show any concern fah Black sheep. No Black sheep as far as I know never write nuttin’ in none ah the Holy books. None ah the poets and scholars refered to by MME soun’ Black nider. So if this farmer thing is good sense, this Black sheep got every reason not tah give a shit..!

  40. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Bushman,
    If in fact there was a farmer of some sort, how dare there be a sheep that believes it has the wherewithal to assess or apply sheep reasoning to the existence of the farmer? As a Black sheep, for me the farmer is only good for creating cage matches such as these…! This is entertainment. Somebody get Donald Trump on the phone.

  41. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    MME

    Here are my DO’s & DON’Ts FROM THE BOOK OF JAMES

    I wrote this paraphrase in 1998 in memory of my first son’s first sermon on James, entitled JUST DO IT.

    The main difference between James and the other epistles is that it is nearly all practical; there is little doctrine.

    Hope these thoughts help you in your mastery of James.

    Chapter 1
    Do count it joy when ye are tested because testing worketh patience.[2 &3].
    Do let patience have her perfect work so that you may be perfectly complete and lacking nothing [4]
    Do you lack wisdom?—ask God in faith consistently without wavering because a wavering prayer has his prayer requests tossed and lossed![5-7]
    Don’t be double minded –it results in total instability.[8]
    Do endure your periods of testings and trials—the crown of life promised by the Lord is the result [12]
    Don’t say that God tempts you to do evil—he never does that [13]
    Do understand that temptation results from our lust which on conception produces sin which has eternal death for its wages or sentence[ 14 &15]
    Do not err [ stray or wander] my beloved brethren [16].
    Do appreciate that all good and perfect gifts originate with our immutable Father [17] who begat us with the word of truth that we should be firstfruits of all creatures.[18]
    Do let all the brethren be swift to hear, and slow to speak and to wrath for the wrath of God worketh not the righteousness of God[19 & 20].
    Do lay apart all filthiness and super fluity of naughtiness and receive with meekness the engrafted soul saving word [21].
    Do the word and don’t fool yourself by only hearing it.[22].
    Do look into and continue in the perfect law of liberty;if you are a doer of the work rather than a forgetful hearer you will be blessed [25]
    Don’t demonstrate a vain and pious religion based on an unbridled tongue and a deceitful heart[26]
    Do visit orphans and widows and remain unspotted from the world; this is pure and undefiled religion before God. [27].

    Chapter 2
    Don’t be a respector of persons; favoring the rich over the poor because the rich blaspheme the Lord’s name Furthermore such a practice is sin. [1-9].
    Don’t offend in one point of the law or you are guilty of the whole law [10&11]
    Do what you say and say what you do [12]
    Do be merciful and receive judgement without mercy [13]
    Do understand that faith without works is unprofitable and powerless to save [14].
    Do be practical as you demonstrate that a faith that is not manifested by works is dead and unprofitable[15-17].
    Do demonstrate a workless faith and I will demonstrate a faith that manifests itself by works[18].
    Do revise the truth that faith that is not accompanied by appropriate action is useless[20].
    Do grasp that both Abraham & Rahab demonstrated their faith and became justified by the action that they took [21-25]
    Do appreciate that a spiritless body is as dead as a workless faith[26].

    Chapter 3
    Don’t serve many masters, because you will receive greater judgement [1].
    Don’t offend in Word and you will be considered perfect and can exercise self control [2].
    Don’t gossip [3-12].
    Do be wise and endued with knowledge and demonstrate this wisdom by your lifestyle [13]
    Do you have bitter envying and strife in your hearts? —well glory not.,nor lie against the truth, because envying and strife is associated with confusionand every evil work.[14 &16].
    Do note that the wisdom which is from below is earthly, sensual & devilish [15].
    Do note that the wisdom from above is pure , peacable, gentle, easily entreated, full of mercy and good fruits without partiality or hypocrisy[17 &18].

    Chapter 4
    Don’t war and fight and lust and kill—just ask properly [1,2].
    Don’t ask amiss just to consume it on your own lusts [3 ].
    Don’t be friends with the world —that’s enmity with God [9] (c.f. 1Jn 2: 15-17).
    Do you want God’s grace and exaltation ?– well humble yourself in his sight and submit to him [6,7, 10].
    Draw nigh to God and He will draw nigh to you [8]
    Do you want the devil to flee from you ?– well resist him [7].
    Don’t be double minded [8].
    Don’t boast– its evil [13, 16].
    Do the Lord’s will, because Life is short [ 14 15].
    Do what you know you ought to do; if you don’t, its Sin [17].

    Chapter 5
    Don’t trust in heaping up riches by corrupt means and the position it brings—it will bring you misery.[1-6] Do be patient until the Lord comes with the same anticipation that a farmer exhibits [ 7].
    Do be patient and stablish your heart for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh [ 8 ]
    Don’t grudge one against another , lest ye be condemned [9].
    Do be an example of suffering affliction and of patience[10].
    Do endure and be patient like Job[ 10].
    Don’t swear –just keep your word [12].
    Do confess your faults and pray for one another for the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much [16].
    Do pray like Elijah but don’t err from the truth [17-18] .
    Do convert sinners from their error and thus hide a multitude of sins[19-20].

    DON’T TALK IT, JUST DO IT !!

    With respect to Revelation, you must see it as a big river into which the streams and tributaries of all prophecy flow. It is best understood if you have a good understanding of the OT prophetic scriptures, and when you understand the Olivet discourse in Matthew 24, where Jesus gives the key to understand all prophecy.

    I will post an outline later that I got from M R DeHaan’s booklets that has helped me immeasurably in mastering the Doctrine of the Second Coming, even without Dwight Pentecost’s great book THINGS TO COME.

  42. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    MME gone and call the Calvary. Oh no..!

  43. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    MME
    This first part is Dr DeHaans outline, which I have been playing with since 1982. It is my broad working outline of the second coming.
    1.The Rapture of the Church, (Ist. Phase of second coming) followed by the judgement Seat of Christ (bema) and the marriage of the lamb.
    2.The Revelation of Antichrist.
    3. The Rigors of The Great Tribulation.
    4. The Resounding Victory of Christ at the Battle of Armageddon.
    5. The Return of Christ in Glory (2nd. phase of second coming)
    6.The Renegade Satan is bound.
    7.The Rule of Christ in the Millennial Kingdom.
    8. The Rebellion of Satan for the last time.
    9. The Rejection of unbelievers at the last judgement.
    10.The Retirement of the saints to the new heaven and the new earth.

    The outlines below are an attempt to flesh out the above, from one’s reading of the prophetic scriptures in the OT as well as those NT predictions of this coming event.

    Even among those who hold a pre-millenial view of the end times, there are differences about the order of these events, but almost all think of these events as occurring during the end times.

    Hope you can follow and improve on my notes below.

    EVENTS IMMEDIATELY BEFORE THE SEVEN-YEAR TRINULATION PERIOD
    1. The Church raptured: John 14:1-3, 1 Cor. 15:51,52; 1 Thess. 4:16-18; Rev.3:10.
    2. The Restrainer removed: 2 Thess. 2:7.
    3. The Judgment Seat of Christ (in heaven): 1 Cor. 3:12-15; 2 Cor. 5:10.
    We can associate these three events with the RAPTURE.

    4. The anti-Christ rises to power over the Roman confederacy: Dan. 7:20, 24.
    EVENT AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SEVEN-YEAR PERIOD
    1. The anti Christ (the coming “ruler”) makes a covenant with Israel: Dan. 9:26,27.

    EVENTS IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE SEVEN-YEAR PERIOD
    1. Israel living in peace in the land: Ezek. 38:8.

    2. Temple sacrifices re-instituted: Rev. 11:1,2.

    3. World church dominates religion and the anti-Christ: Rev. 17.
    EVENTS JUST BEFORE THE MIDDLE OF THE SEVEN-YEAR PERIOD
    1. Gog and his allies invade Palestine from the north: Eze. 38:2-6,22

    2. Gog and his allies destroyed by God: Eze. 38:17-23.
    We can associate all of these last seven listed events with the REVELATION OF ANTICHRIST

    EVENTS AT THE MIDDLE OF THE SEVEN-YEAR PERIOD
    1. Satan cast down from heaven and energizes the anti-Christ: Rev. 12:12-17.

    2. The anti-Christ breaks his covenant with Israel, causing her sacrifices to cease: Dan. 9:27.

    3. The ten kings under the anti-Christ destroy the world church: Rev. 17:16-18.

    4. The 144,000 Israelites saved and sealed: Rev. 7:1-8.
    EVENTS OF THE SECOND HALF OF THE SEVEN YEAR PERIOD

    These 3 1/2 years are called “the great tribulation (Rev. 7:14), “great distress” (Matt. 24:21); “time of distress” (Dan. 12:1), and a “time of trouble for Jacob” (Jer. 30:7).
    1. Rebellion (apostasy) against the truth in the professing church: Matt. 24:12; 2 Thess. 2:3.

    2. the anti-Christ becomes a world ruler (first seal, Rev. 6:1,2), with support of the Western confederacy: Rev. 13:5-7; 17:12,13.

    3. The anti-Christ is revealed as “the man of lawlessness” or “the lawless one”: 2 Thess. 2:3,8,9.

    4. War, famine, and death (2nd, 3rd, and 4th seals): Rev. 6:3-8.

    5. Converted multitudes from every nation are martyred (5th seal): Rev. 6:9-11; 7:9-14; Matt. 24:9.

    6. Natural disturbances and worldwide fear of divine wrath (6th seal): Rev. 6:12-17.

    7. The anti-Christ’s image (an “abomination”) is set up for worship: Dan. 9:27; Matt. 24:15; 2 Thess. 2:4; Rev. 13:14,15.

    8. Two witnesses begin their ministry: Rev. 11:3.

    9. The false prophet promotes the anti-Christ, who is worshipped by nations and unbelieving Israel: Matt. 24:11,12; 2 Thess. 2:11; Rev. 13:14,11-15.

    10. The mark of the Beast is used to promote worship of the anti-Christ: Rev. 13:16-18.
    11. Israel scattered because of the anger of Satan (Rev. 12:6, 13-17) and because of the “abomination” (the anti-Christ’s image) in the temple (Matt. 24:15-26).

    12. Jerusalem overrun by Gentiles: Luke 21:24; Rev. 11:2.

    13. The anti-Christ and false prophets deceive many people: Matt. 24:11; 2 Thess. 2:9-11.

    14. The gospel of the Kingdom is proclaimed: Matt. 24:14.

    15. Israel persecuted by the anti-Christ: Jer. 30:5-7; Dan. 12:1; Zech. 13:8; Matt. 24:21,22.

    16. Trumpet judgments (Rev. 8 and 9) and bowl judgments (Rev. 16) are poured out by God on the anti-Christ’s empire.

    17. Blasphemy increases as the judgments intensify: Rev. 16:8-11.
    EVENTS CONCLUDING THE SEVEN-YEAR PERIOD
    1. Two witnesses slain by the anti-Christ: Rev. 11:7.

    2. Two witnesses resurrected: Rev. 11:11,12.

    3. The king of the South and the king of the North fight against the anti-Christ: Dan. 11:40.

    4. The anti-Christ enters Palestine and defeats Egypt, Libya, and Ethiopia: Dan. 11:40-43.

    5. Armies from the East and the North move toward Palestine: Dan. 11:44; Rev. 16:12.

    6. Jerusalem is ravaged: Zech. 14:1-4.

    7. Commercial Babylon is destroyed: Rev. 16:19; 18:1-3, 21-24.

    8. Signs appear in the earth and sky: Isa. 13:10; Joel 2:10,30,31; 3:15; Matt. 24:29.

    9. Christ returns with the armies of Heaven: Matt. 24:27-31; Rev. 19:11-16.

    10. Jews flee Jerusalem, facilitated by topographical changes: Zech. 14:5.

    11. Armies unite at Armageddon against Christ and the armies of Heaven: Joel 3:9-11; Rev. 16;16; 19:17-19.

    12. Armies are destroyed by Christ: Rev. 19:19,21.

    13. The “beast” (anti-Christ) and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire: Rev. 19:20.
    The above events above constitute the occurences in the RIGORS OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION

    EVENTS FOLLOWING THE SEVEN-YEAR PERIOD
    1. Final regathering of Israel: Isa. 11:11,12; Jer. 30:3; Eze. 36:24; 37:1-14; Amos 9:14,15; Micah 4:6,7; Matt. 24:31.

    2. A remnant of Israelies turn to the Lord and are forgiven and cleansed: Hosea 14:1-5; Zech. 12:10; 13:1.

    3. National deliverance of Israel from the anti-Christ: Dan. 12:1; Zech. 12:10; 13:1; Rom. 11:26,27.

  44. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    BAFBFP
    Re MME gone and call the Cavallry. Oh no..!

    Dont worry Sir. I have posted the above for MME. You guys can carry on with your discussions.

  45. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    But GP
    I am reading your posts too you know. I you want to talk to MME email him nah (mme@onesmartengineer.com LOL). Once you publish, I, as an atheist, am obligated to read. I may dismiss the God phenomena but will not dismiss you, Sir.

  46. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    But GP
    I am reading your posts too you know. I you want to talk to MME email him nah (mme@onesmartengineer.com LOL). Once you publish, I, as an atheist, am obligated to read. I may dismiss the God phenomena but will not dismiss you, Sir.

  47. Grenville Avatar
    Grenville

    Dear ROC:

    If you said that you had produced a 30-year research work that had undergone a rigorous pre-publication critical review, and that the results of that research had challenged a 1,400 year old assumption, then I would have had several options of response, including the following.

    1. If I was interested in the subject, then I could do you the courtesy of critically reviewing your work and then discussing it with you.

    2. I could engage you in discussion, without actually reading it, so that I can learn more about it.

    3. I could simply dismiss it without reading it, but assume what it contains and criticize it none-the-less.

    4. I could declare that the subject does not interest me and attempt to frustrate all discussion on the work.

    5. I could declare that the subject does not interest me and let those who are interested discuss the work without my interruptions.

    ROC, I would have respectfully chosen the first or the last listed option.

    Regards,
    Grenville

  48. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Grenvillle,
    So basically the choices are
    1) Read the book and discuss
    2) If you don’t read the book, get out of the way and let other’s discuss.

    Earth to Grenville! Your book seeks to bridge the gap between two fairy tales that claim some ownership of some supreme being. We know that man likes the idea of a supreme beings and that’s evident by the hundreds of Gods he has created in his mind.

    Now all these hundreds of Gods man has created have two things in common.
    A) They all come with some ridiculously absurd back story
    B) They are all invisible.

    So what does Grenville do? Pick arguably the two most popular absurd stories and wrote a book on how they have a lot in common.

    You think? They were both conceived by human beings living in the same general area of the world.

    Now, if your book were on Buddhism vs Hinduism, I could say the same thing.

    Maybe if your book was on the harmonies between Christianity and Hinduism, then you might have a story.

    Either way it would just be a story on fairy tales.

    You could have just as easily, and probably more interestingly, write a book on the harmonies between Santa Claus and the God of the bible.

    This could be the outline:
    A) Both Santa and God are omnipresent
    B) Both know if you’re right or wrong (omniscient)
    C) Both have white beards
    D) Both are invisible
    E) Both punish you if you’re bad

    It’s almost like God is Santa Claus for adults!

    So let me know Grenville, do you want to read my book and discuss it? Otherwise get out the way and let those who read it discuss without interruption. See how that works?

  49. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @BU Family…

    I have found that there is little upside to debating religion here in Barbados. Those who Believe will not even consider counter arguments, no matter the empirical.

    We *are* a Christian society, after all…

    But…

    This morning, in my In-Box, I found the most recent issue of the Skeptic.com newsletter.

    http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-04-29.html

    Might you please consider reading?

  50. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Sheep cannot think for or reason like a shepherd …

    BAFBFP 2009

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