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The Bible And The Qur'an, Brothers Kept Apart

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brotherskeptapartFellow blogger Weighed in the Balance has undertaken the ambitious and highly risky task of writing a book which as he terms it “is a comparative analysis of the Bible and the Qur’an, and it assumes that both books are correct.  If God is the principal author of each book, as Christians and Muslims claim, then a comparative analysis should reveal harmony between the principal teachings of both.  This is what I have found.  Hence, Christians and Muslims have been kept apart by their religious leaders who have taught their adherents that God has rejected the other group.” The topic matter was thought to be so contentious that he originally penned his book using a pseudonym.

Phillip’s book is titled Brothers Kept Apart and can be purchased on Amazon.com at a reasonable price. Some members of the BU family have already demonstrated that they are students of the religions. Brother Phillips advises that the book represents 30 years of research and 7 years of critical review and he stands ready to defend his thesis.

It is no secret that the BU household has demonstrated a keen interest in the religions or what some people disparagingly refer to as dogmas. It is a fascinating subject and one which is shrouded in mystery, allegories, parables, fables and some theology  Religion has been used through the ages to edify and destroy man’s existence. Of interest to all through the ages has been the cooption of  religion to pit Islam versus Christianity, East versus West by geo-political motivated groups.

For a synopsis of the book the BU family is welcomed to visit Phillips’s blog. We look forward to a fascinating discussion and take the opportunity to wish him every success.

What he has attempted demonstrates courage of conviction, a characteristic in scarce supply.

.

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1,124 responses to “The Bible And The Qur'an, Brothers Kept Apart”

  1. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Halsall
    It is clear to me that giraffes were particularly designed for thier existence. No giraffe could survive if he was not made correctly! Even you can understand that. There is no other animal that has veins in its carotid arteries!

  2. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @GP: “Check out this unbelievable video clip of a Giraffe. Is there a logical explanation for how evolution could explain this incredible creature?

    Duhhh… Let’s see…

    After several million years, a group of creatures finds themselves herbivores, competing with other herbivores for plant material.

    Said creatures find themselves spending a lot of their time stretching upwards to eat the leaves of trees, who have themselves evolved to grow upwards in order to reach the sunlight before other plants.

    Said creatures, over several million years, finds that their offspring have an advantage if their necks are longer than others.

    There is of course engineering issues to deal with when you have a longer neck. Some of the offspring find that they’re born with the systems to manage this.

    Others don’t…

    Those that don’t tend to die off (or are killed) more frequently than those that do have such systems.

    Thus, those who are so advantaged are more likely to survive to the point of procreation.

    Iterate a few hundred thousand generations, over a few million years, and behold! Said creatures find that they’re called Giraffes.

    I fail to understand the difficulty….

  3. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Scientists decide that the more experimental evidence that ‘stacks up’ in favour of a given theory, the easier it is to believe. Despite the fact that the validity of the Christian world view can never be proven scientifically, when one begins stacking up the facts, it is hard not to believe in Christianity, and its Creator.

    To keep it as simple as possible, dealing with the logic of ‘coherence’ in every aspect of scientific inquiry, the very building blocks of justification in order to validate a propositional true claim; evolutionary naturalism, virsus Creation by intelligent design, which of these two competing ‘truth’ claims stand the test of coherence of evidence?

    Beginning with the evolutionary theory, natural energy sources through billions of years of ‘blind chance’ eventually some of these chemicals collided in just the RIGHT way to produce the chemicals that eventually led to life; a very simple single -celled creature, we all know the fairy tale that comes out of this utterly absurd theory.

    Using this irrational theory, evolutionary scientists would like us to believe that the apparent, marvelous, design that we see in our world is really just a product of random chance, guided by natural selection. Several authors have written in detail concerning this subject, and they demonstrate that there is very little empirical evidence supporting the natural selection argument.

    On the contrary, the preponderance of scientific evidence thus far, overwhelmingly support and confirm the Genesis account of creation, to the disgust of evolutionary scientists.

    A very pertinant point to remember, is, that contrary to what scientists used to think, we now know that there IS NO such thing as a ‘Simple life form.’ Since natural selection can only operate on living systems, it CANNOT explain the all-important leap from non-living chemicals to living systems.

    Life cannot simply occur out of nothing, without an Omnipotent Creator, as, in order to form life from non-life, several very complex systems MUST come together and work in concert, in order to ‘cohere’ scientifically, to produce life!

    Thus, natural selection CANNOT explain the very complex arrangements we see in the simplest life forms here on earth, nor can it explain why earth is so perfectly suited to support this life, an utterly vast, very complex set of systems must ALL come together, in just the RIGHT way, in order for LIFE to come into existence; this is a scientific fact.

    The single-celled creature, is so complex, that this in itself is a marvel to behold and look at scientifically.

    But, let us back up for a moment, and look at a few of the incedible things required for planet earth to be able to support life forms. Ozone is just one of the extremely complex things required for earth to support life.

    Ozone, a molecule composed of three oxygen atoms, makes up this amazing filter. It turns out that ozone is a molecule which breaks down in the presence of untraviolet light. The ultraviolet light has just enough energy to breal apart one of the bonds that holds the oxygen atoms together. In other words, when ultraviolet light encounters an ozone molecule, it uses its energy to destroy the ozone molecule instead of destroying living tissue. One truly amazing thing about this wonderful filter is that ozone cannot be broken down by visible or infrared light, so those types of light are allowed to hit the surface of the earth, where they are needed by plants and animals!

    All of this, just happened by ‘chance’ all coming together, just SO, absurd nonsense!

    The earth orbits around the sun in a nearly circular pattern, thus, it stays at an almost constant distance away from the sun. If that distance were to change by as little as 2% there would be disastrous consequences. In order for life as we know it to exist, the water on the planet must be stable in its liquid phase ( as opposed to its solid phase, ice, or its gaseous phase, vapor). If earth we 2% farther away from or closer to the sun, there would be not enough liquid water on the planrt to support ANY KIND OF LIFE!!

    All of this happened just by CHANCE, an utterly irrational, stupid theory!

    Atoms are incredibly small, and are needed in even the ‘simplest’ life form on earth. In fact, there are roughly 100,000,000,000, 000, 000, 000, atoms contained in the head of a pin. Despite the fact that atoms are so small, they make up ALL of the things we see in the world around us. From a lump of iron to a Corvette sports car, all things are composed of atoms.

    Marvelously enough, these tiny atoms are composed of even smaller things called protons, neutrons, and electrons; all came together by ‘chance’ without an Omnipotent designer? Hardly, a chance!!! Improbable to ignorance, not a chance!!

  4. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Some of the offspring find that they’re born with the systems to manage this.
    Just so! Yeah right! I find it much easier to believe that giraffes were designed as they are.

    It used to be said that giraffes evolved to have long necks because only the taller giraffes could get food. Until it was shown that male giraffes have necks that are 3-4 feet longer than female giraffes. This would mean that only the males would survive.

  5. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    The single-celled creature, is so complex, that this in itself is a marvel to behold and look at scientifically.

    What about the Biochemistry that runs the single celled creature? I wont even start to consider higher life forms with tissues and organs and organ systems.

  6. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @GP… Sigh…

    Human males also tend to be bigger and stronger (although often not as intelligent) as human females…

    Why? Because the males need the females to procreate. And therefore, the males need to fight others for the said right. Therefore, they need more food in order to be bigger (and dumber…)

    @GP… You go ahead and believe what you want to. I reserve the right to believe what I do….

  7. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Bush Tea, Georgie…

    I think you guys really ran with it when I said:

    “Okay, so the chances of all of this happening without a creator are tiny.
    Let me concede that. ”

    I was able to say that because I am honest.

    Now if only the religious folks could be so honest.

    To be clear, the chances that there is some magic person in the sky is an infitessimally SMALLER probability.
    ****
    Think:

    1) The probability of flipping a coin and getting heads 10 times in a row is about 1 in 512. It’s a small possibility but it’s in the realm of something that could happen based on the way we know the world works.

    2) Now what’s the probability that when you flip a coin it will hang in middair and defy the laws of gravity?
    ***
    The second test is more in line with the possibility of their being God.

    You have to find the probability of a creature that can
    A) Read minds
    B) Make things happen with telepathy
    C) Be every where at once
    D) Know everything
    E) Can see into the future

    And on and on and on. Each one of these possiblities ridiculous tiny. Then, you have to multiply each one of these possiblities by each other, and they get smaller each time!
    **
    So let’s be honest christians. What do you think the possibility of the God of the bible actually existing?

  8. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Seriously, there’s no debate. You guys believe in a fairy tale. The same fairy tale that your parents believed in nonetheless.

    It’s not even like did any critical study, and researched the other 1000 gods before settling on one.

    You just lazily believe what everyone around you believed like a sheep.

    Yup, a sheep.

    So when the bible says the earth is 6,000 years old, when we know it to be BILLIONS of years old, you find some way to get around that.

    When the bible says that man was made before the animals when we know that dinosaurs living millions of years before man, you find some way to get around that.

    Shoot, when the bible doesn’t even mention dinosaurs (not like the men who wrote the book knew about them), you find some way to get around that.

    When the men who wrote the bible gave God decidedly human traits and have him murdering babies, condoning rape, promoting slavery, racial discrimination, etc. you find some way around that.

    It’s one big fairy tale with a million holes. But the well brain-washed are always ready and willing to step up with another bandage.

    What a joke.

  9. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    Sorry Rohan,

    I thought that you were a grown up person…. my bad.

    …when you move pass your sixth form style debate format you will learn quite a lot my friend.

    …till then, my guess is that you will continue thumping your chest and wasting that obvious intellect with which you have been blessed…

  10. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    The amazing little ‘bombardier bettle’ is a marval of design creation, this relatively small creature has one of the most effective and beautiful defense mechanisms in all of creation; a fully-equipped chemical weapon.

    This weapon begins with storage vessels that contain a mixture of two chemicals; hydroquinone and hydrogen peroxide. Under normal conditions, these chemicals would react, but, while stored in the bombardier beetle’s vessels, they are kept from reacting by the presence of a third chemical which inhibits the reaction. When the bombardier beetle feels threatened, however, it fills an empty reaction chamber in its body with the chemicals. Two other chemicals, catalase and peroxidase, are then added. These chemicals cause the hydrogen peroxide and hydroquinone to react violently. The violent reaction produces a great amount of heat and pressure in the reaction vessel. The beetle then points its tail in the direction of trouble, and opens a valve that exist between the reaction vessel and the tail. A jet of steam which has a temperature of roughly 200 degrees F, shoots out the tail in the direction of danger. Any potential predator is immediately burned and frightened away. The bombardier beetle can perform this feat up to twenty times per day!

    This is a fully-functional chemical weapon. Human beings, with all of our technological knowledge and research genius were only able to develop effective chemical weapons during World War I, but the simple bombdardier beetle has had such a device since day one. Does it make any sense at all to believe that something which took centuries of human research and development, could have simply appeared by chance in the body of a beetle?

    Oh, and this nonsense about millions and billions of years of evolutionary naturalism, another pseudo scientific fallacy, is more or less, put to silence by the FACT, that the millions of fossils found everywhere, so far, resoundingly confirm and establish the Genesis account of Creation, as Almighty God said He did it.

    In the millions of fossil finds, every time they are found, they APPEAR abruptly, that is FULLY formed, exactly as they were Created. The Metazoa, we are told by these free thinkers of evolution, evolved from one or more of these single-celled organisms; just how that occurred and what intermediates were invloved is viewed as one of the great, as yet unsolved mysteries of evolution.

    Metazoans, that is, highly complex multi-cellular creatures with specialized organs abruptly appear, fully-formed in the fossil record. There are NO intermediates available from the fossil record that link single-celled organisms to the complex invertebrates that supposedly arose from them.

    The sudden appearance of complex invertebrates of the Precambruan mist, without ANY trace of ancestors or transitional forms IS still as baffling and embarrassing to evolutionists today, just as it was to Darwin, because 135 years after Darwin evolutionists are no nearer to a solution of the ‘mystery’ than Darwin. Bengtson tells us that “If any event in life’s history resembles man’s creation myths, it is this sudden diversification of marine life.”

    And again, we say, yes, indeed! The explosion of complex living organisms found in the fossil record is precisely what is and must be predicted on the basis of Creation. The myth IS NOT creation; the MYTH is the theory of evolution, a myth invented to explain our origin with out God.

    Again, there IS NO coherence in the fossil record, to give any credence to evolution. BUT, there IS abundance of ‘coherence’ coming forth from the fossil record, speaking in eloquent silence, ‘…As you see, when ever you find US, we are ALL fully formed, exactle as we were CREATED!!!

  11. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @Zoe… A serious question…

    What was the last book by Stephen Jay Gould that you’ve read?

    What did you think of it?

  12. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Bush Tea,
    I am grown up. That’s why I don’t have any imaginary friends.

    Seriously though Bush Tea, I don’t see why I should have any respect for absurdities. If the bible was filled with cute little loving stories that was a nice way to pass the time, I could give you that.

    But it’s fill with such barbaric behavior, such callous treatment of human life, it should be called for what it is.

    If I told you I had a 100 lb diamond buried in my backyard that I workshipped you would call me crazy.

    Now think about what you believe.

    Sorry man, just got to call it like I see it.

  13. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    Rohan,
    Being grown up is much more than about giving up imaginary friends.

    One of the common traits of ‘grown ups’ is the realization that many things are much more complex than at first appears.

    Another is that the more you know, the more you recognize how much you don’t know…so

    Your disdainful dismissal of things that you clearly do not understand because they ‘do not make sense’ to you, is disappointing; as is the lack of any position from you that seeks to outline what YOU see as the origin, purpose and objective of this life experience.

    ..actually if you told me that you had the 100 lb diamond in your yard which you workshiped – it would explain quite a lot…… ha ha ha

  14. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Chris,

    Man these women always tell you that size does not matter. That is a bold face lie. Human males have got the mostest of all primates because to the human females over all these millennia, “size mattered”; particularly for Black female species with all that derrière to negotiate. Ah hah, and now with the internet and women freely going to male strip clubs, their expectations will even be higher (or bigger). Oh no, this natural selection thing will quickly see the demise of the likes of me..!

  15. Sir Bentwood Dick Avatar
    Sir Bentwood Dick

    So, if one bakes a cake, forgets in on the counter for two weeks, it morphs into something quite different, bacteria growth et al, is that creation or evolution?

    😉

  16. Sir Bentwood Dick Avatar
    Sir Bentwood Dick

    I believe, in much.
    Does it matter?

    Only to me, why to you?
    Some things are only explainable by believing.

    That is fact, my fact.
    Does it matter?

    Only to me, why to you?

    What is, is.
    Accept this, accept life.

    Belief to me, is personal.
    I do not deride, others belief.

    Nor should others, deride mine, nor pillory me for mine.

    The only reason to persecute another for that one’s belief, could be out of insecurity, in one’s own.

    Belief, is real.
    One of the few things in modern life that really is, real.

    More real than stocks, bonds.
    More real than political programs.
    More real than corporate culture.
    More real than dogma.

    I believe in much.

    Peace

  17. Artful Dodger Avatar
    Artful Dodger

    Bush Tea: Being condescending towards those who do not shre your views is not very grown up. Rohan has, on many occasions, given a full accounting of why he does not place his “faith” in religion or the many books written by those whose motives are to promote the opiate/religion to the masses. One is really grasping at straws to refer to someone as childish because they disagree with you. I have no idea how old Rohan is but he clearly has a considerable intellect.

  18. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Sir Bentwood

    I suspect that your sub-species is doomed to the same fate as mine…!

  19. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    Artful Dodger

    If you plan to upbraid Bush Tea it would be helpful if you understood the issues.

    1. No one questioned Rohan’s intelligence. Indeed quite the opposite in Bush Tea’s case.

    2. Accusing Rohan of sixth form style debating tactics does not translate into ‘childish’ It is a tactical approach that works very well with traditional Christians – but not with Bush Tea.

    3. I explained what I meant by ‘grown up’ in terms of appreciating how complex many things are rather than being purely black and white issues.

    4. I happen to share many of Rohan’s positions. This is why I have chosen to engage him as I have.

    5. I have no doubt that Rohan has the required intellect and interest to get to the bottom of this mystery and perhaps guide us all to a proper understanding – should he be inclined to so do.

    Thanks for the opportunity to clarify that position Artful Dodger.

  20. Avatar
    Anonymous

    Artful Dodger
    Don’t take Bush tea too seriously. He is one of the great comedians regularly posting on BU. He has a special gift in being able to maintain a “straight face” while humouring posters as they expound on their ‘theories”. One of Bush tea’s recent classic jokes is that he knows what the Gods are up to. Bush tea is probably even more agnostic than Rohan just that he can laugh at himself a bit.

  21. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Sir Bentwood Dick

    Many, many, moons ago I would have taken your “limber*rick” seriously. I may have even considered much of it as true.

    What you have done is open my eyes to the level of ignorance that exists in this society masquerading as wisdom. Out of all your ramblings, I want to focus on one:

    “Some things are only explainable by believing.”

    What rubbish! Nothing is explainable by believing, only by fact and truth. What I would say is that a level of ignorance can be satisfied by believing.

    What I would agree with is that to the extent none of us has all the facts, we should be open to ideas. Our real problem is that some idiot who wants to masquerade as God of the universe has sought to confuse the facts in HIS favour.

    This brings to mind a scenario where as a teenager, I sought to control the behaviour of my brothers only because I was the eldest and looked up to by them as having more knowledge.

    I was playing selfish with a tonic manufactured by one “Blakies” or “Blackies” which my father bought for me. To me it was all a joke but they took it seriously.

    I came home from school and found that somebody had used some of the tonic, so I set out to prevent further consumption of my precious tonic. I asked, who drank my tonic? Nobody owned up.

    So using my supposedly superior knowledge and quick thinking I started to tell them that this was a potent thing and as I came to the end of my quite ridiculous scolding of them, I noticed an acronym on the back of the bottle “BPC”.

    So I asked them, do you know what BPC stands for? All of them nodded their heads and I said, “Blackies Poison Children”. At this, the culprit ran to the bathroom and tried to vomit up what he drank.

    Talk about ignorance?

  22. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    ROK

    Fellow Lodge Rat,

    I would want to start a radical chapter of Atheists International or Atheist Alliance International in BIM. The goal is to act as a buffer or counter to all these established media houses and public personalities/politicians who seek to keep this religion thing infront of the same people they seek to exploit. Wha’ you say.. you good at organising.

  23. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Thanks Artful Dodger, it’s a-okay though. Bush Tea and I are cool.

    We’re going to get together and lay out all the world’s beers and try to match them up with all the world’s Gods.

    These are questions that have been bothering me for some time:

    Would Asian Gods drink Asian beer? Seriously, would Buddha drink that Nepalese stuff or would he prefer a Banks beer?

    Would Native American Gods prefer the stuff they make on the reserves or would they like Guiness?

    I mean, you never know.

    So many Gods, so many beers. And they all reflect the taste of the local people.

    Makes you wonder where both the beers and the Gods came from.

    Anyhow, whenever you’re ready Bush Tea, we could discuss over a Heineken . My personal fave! : – )

  24. Sir Bentwood Dick Avatar
    Sir Bentwood Dick

    ROK,

    But some things are intrinsically completely unexplainable by current ‘knowledge’.

    So, to pretend that they will be ‘explainable’ by knowledge, either now or at some time in the future, is in itself either a cop-out denying one’s own ignorance, or a ‘faith’ i.e. blind belief in some aspect or definition of ‘science’ that one ascribes to.

    Thus, your ‘explanations’ are no more no less valid than anyone else’s, despite your proclamations otherwise i.e. you yourself that total ‘faith’ in your own version of fact, that is itself flawed by your own parameters of ‘knowledge’.

    Knowledge is not absolute, surely!

  25. Sir Bentwood Dick Avatar
    Sir Bentwood Dick

    By the way, I reiterate, that some things are only explainable by believing, there is no current ‘fact or truth’ that can explain some things, if you do not know what I talk of, then we are certainly on different levels of thought completely and it makes no sense to continue trying to continue, but merely to ‘agree to disagree’.

    Which was my main point in any case, every viewpoint is personal, none more true than another.

  26. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Here is the opinion of the Father of the Modern Scientific Method, Sir Francis Bacon:

    “It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion. For while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them, confederate and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity.”

    Here is the opinion of the Father of Science, Galileo, who despite his persecution by the Roman Catholic Church remained steadfast in his faith and belief in God:

    “…the Holy Scriptures cannot err and the decrees therein contained are absolutely true and inviolable. I should have added that, though scripture cannot err its expounders and interpreters are liable to err in many ways …when they base themselves always on literal meaning of the words.”

    “Holy Scripture and nature, are both emanations from the divine word: the former dictated by the Holy Spirit, the latter the observant executrix of God’s commands.”

    “…no truth discovered in Nature could contradict the deep truth of the Holy Writ.”

    … in his final days he wrote “To the Lord; whom I worship and thank; That governs the heavens with His eyelid; To Him I return tired, but full of living.”

    Rohan, Not Saved and BAFBFP… the intellectual road to Divine discovery always runs through atheism territory… keep questioning and you will eventually find your way through the fog.

  27. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    If Sir Francis Bacon was born in 1961 instead of 1561, with all the new information and technologies and so on, I say to you MME, with confidence, that he would be singing a far different tune. Genius sometimes is over taken by ego.

  28. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    MME writes:

    “the intellectual road to Divine discovery always runs through atheism territory”

    —–

    yes, but it does not always have the same destination

  29. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    MME,

    What would have happened to Galilieo had he said otherwise?

  30. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @Sir Bentwood Dick

    Sometimes challenges like yours helps one to extract knowledge they never knew they had. I suppose that it is a question of application; mostly logic (if a+b=c, then a=c-b.)

    The first factor would be a definition of knowledge. If your definition means everything that man knows rather than everything that can be known, you are starting from different bases. Knowledge assumes some accuracy or measure of expertise, but we should be able to agree that knowledge is not truth.

    From my point of view, knowledge can be acquired and is acquired. Hence, knowledge is there to be had but stems from “truth”(what exists) and “knowledge” (what we know about what exists). Of course, we can also add in “belief” (what we believe about what exists).

    Truth is certainly absolute. Knowledge however may be skewed (rather than inaccurate); or should I say the use and application of knowledge can be skewed by belief? Belief is like wading in muddy waters; you see not where you step and anything can be down there.

    Therefore, for any person seeking truth, belief is an enemy and actually, belief is the real cop-out and explanation based on belief rather than truth, is the real ignorance. Belief is an assumption that you know all.

    We should be able to leave a void where there is no knowledge or be conscious enough to realise when you are assuming to fill the void. That way you will always be on the lookout for truth, i.e. knowledge.

  31. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ BAFBFP

    …but BAFBFP, MME was probably born around 1961, and I put it to you that as a scientist, MME is at least 1000 times more knowledgeable that Bacon ever was….
    …and that the reasoning is even more so today than in 1561.

    BTW, Have you ever watch the National Geographic series on ‘The incredible Human Machine”?

  32. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    On the Creation v Evolutionary naturalism, if evolution is true, then there should be a vast amount of evidence in the fossil deposits, without any doubt whatsoever, confirming the various intermediate and transitional forms. BUT, this is not what the evidence of millions of fossils reveal; rather the fossil evidence point unmistakably to Creation, exactly as revealed by Almighty God in His Genesis account of creation.

    However, the evolutionary scientists, for which they are famous, then resort to fabricating all kinds of pseudo-scientific terms, in order to get around what simply cannot be refuted, that the FOSSIL record, continues to validate overwhelmingly, that Supernatural Creation by an Omnipotent God, is how it all started.

    These evolutionists then invoke what they call ‘Parallel Evolution’ when they assume that a feature evolved independently in closely related species; according to evolutionists, this is a common occurrence in evolution. Another common phenomenon in evolution to evolutionists is what is called ‘Convergent Evolution’, it is assumed that distantly related species have independently evolved similar structures or features.

    It is amazing how these free-wheeling thinkers, create anything in the immense amount finagling with data in order to deny what is so glaringly obvious, Creation!!

    There is no length or depth, to which evolutionists will go to twist the hard facts of the fossil record; as they seek to interpret such data, they then fabricate terms like “punctuated equilibrium” or if this wish, “quantum speciation” anything to remain in denial of the evidence.

    The point to always bear in mind, is that these evolutionists started out with the idea of millions of years that this theory needed in order to allow gradual evolution to occur, then it went to billions of years, which would give them enough time to discover intermediate and transitional forms, a very logical and coherent result should be the case, IF evolution is true.

    BUT, quite the opposite is in fact the case, as the millions upon millions of fossils so far discovered, are ALL fully formed, Created so from the very beginning.

    What many ordinary people do not realize, is, that many of these highly intelligent men, have woven the fabric of evolution theory in an ingenious fashion. They have combined this evolution theory with humanistic, ‘Godless’ philosophy, and have clothed the whole with the term, “science”, the product, a nontheistic ‘religion’ with evolutionary philosophy as it creed under the guise of “science” which is being taught in most public schools, colleges, and universities of the United States. It has become the unofficial state-sanctioned religion.

    Unless we see and recognize this utter distortion of true science, which is really a philosophical agenda, of rampant, rabid, rancid, ‘atheism’ an utter hatred for Almighty God, and His Created Order, masquerading under the guise of science, many more of our young students, will be decieved by this vehement LIE! Instead of coming out of our universities believing in something factual and true, they will imbued with belief in ‘anything’ which is tantamount to believing in NOTHING!

  33. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    BT

    MME as brilliant as he is, as with all supremely talented people out there (including the Bushman), much of what is expressed has a great dose of egotism attached. Why don’t great people just accept their calling (oh no, bad choice of word) and not try to explain it away as being part of something greater? Ego, that all.. and that’s human nature.

  34. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    How is this for some ironic ego…..

    Unless we see and recognize this utter distortion of true science, which is really a philosophical agenda, of rampant, rabid, rancid, ‘atheism’ an utter hatred for Almighty God, and His Created Order, masquerading under the guise of science, many more of our young students, will be deceived by this vehement LIE! Instead of coming out of our universities believing in something factual and true, they will imbued with belief in ‘anything’ which is tantamount to believing in NOTHING!

    I would say this is a HUGE dose of it!!
    Bovine excrement comes glaringly to mind.

    One can argue the same for Christianity….just change university students to theology students and you have the same thing….talk about paralleled arguments.

  35. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Therefore, for any person seeking truth, belief is an enemy and actually, belief is the real cop-out and explanation based on belief rather than truth, is the real ignorance.
    ****
    Great point Rok

  36. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Rok, has finally admitted, that:

    “Truth is certainly absolute.”

    Months ago on another thread, when I stated that fact, that, ‘Truth, by definition is absolute, exclusive” it was dismissed by Rok, as nonsense, if he has now come around to accepting that Absolute premise, then, maybe there is hope, after all for him!

    Truth is based on understanding, knowledge, and intellect’s assent to truth.

    Thus, truth is grounded in intentionality; therefore, correspondence is a two-placed relation between a ‘proposition’ and the state of affairs that is its intentional object.

    Therefore, a propositional ‘truth’ claim, is validated when reality is the way it is represented to be.

    But, what we have today, is ‘cultural’ and ‘moral’ relativism, the emasculation of ‘absolute’ truth, anything goes, ‘…your opinion is no more right than mine…’

    If there is no such thing as absolute truth, then there is no way to determine what is truth!

    The relativist says, ‘There is no absolute truth.” Well, that statement is an ‘absolute’ truth claim, therefore, the relativist starts out refuting his very premise, entirely self-refuting, contradictory!

    This is why no matter what anyone says, we CANNOT get around the law of Non-Contradiction in logic,

    ‘That two competing truth claim, CANNOT be both right at the same time and place.’

    It is a fact, that all knowledge rest on foundations, epistemology is the study of knowledge, therefore an epistemic chain, i.e., P, Q, and R are three beliefs accepted by some person, that P is justified on the basis of Q, and Q is justified on the basis of R, this is called an epistemic chain.

    This is why, when these and many other philosophical disciplines are properly used, the Judeo/Christian world view, using also, the principle of systematic consistency, has no parallel religious world view that even comes close to its validity.

    But, in this modern age of religious relativism, anything goes, all absolute truth is dead, they say! That’s the primary reason mankind is in such a mess, morally, spiritually, and ethically!

  37. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Rok, Do you ‘believe’ that anything is true, (truth?)

    Is your ‘belief’ that you had a great, great, great, great, great grandfather, not based on some kind of evidence, documented proof, that he actually lived?

    Is your ‘belief’ that you had an actual family tree, not based on ‘knowledge?’

    How do we know that B’dos was founded in 1627, I think it is? Do we not concide to these ‘beliefs’ based on valid historic facts and evidence?

    How else can we make choices to ‘believe’ anything, without valid, coherent evidence and knowledge?

  38. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ BAFBFP

    You lost me on two counts.

    1 – How you get ego into an equation where brilliant persons (like MME and Bacon) can come to the conclusion that some super -natural being must have been responsible for the incredible design and order that we see all around us? Is that not a HUMBLING conclusion?

    2 How you can get a Bushman into such esteem company? LOL

    It seems to me that the problem with ROK, Rohan Not Saved etc is that they are so focused on the (obvious) folly of established religion that they REFUSE to consider that somewhere out there, there MUST be an independent, absolute truth which may well be worth exploring – without being sidetracked by established dogma.

    …no ego there folks, just putting two and two together.

  39. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    BT writes:

    “they REFUSE to consider that somewhere out there, there MUST be an independent, absolute truth which may well be worth exploring”

    —-

    I refuse no such thing.

    But you (apparently) refuse to consider that there may be not such “independent, absolute truth”, as you say it “MUST’ be the case.

  40. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Georgie,

    You have resorted to finding god in the necks of giraffes and the asses of beetles.

    Come on, dont be so disrespectful of your fellow scientist, evolutionary theory is so widely accepted you might as well be telling me the earth is flat.

  41. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    BT

    I am not a particularly humble individual; frankly I find humility a façade.

    Believers do not just believe they KNOW; they know because in my view they see themselves as very special entities in this Universe and they need to KNOW that they are being singled out as by some higher authority. They are humble yes, humble to a being that cannot be challenged by a rival.

    MME, GP, BT, Sir Bacon and Sir Dick (sorry Zoe you ain’ dey yet) are great and disciplined minds, very special people just by being alive. This is an observation that I as a casual observer can make. But when these guys harness this wealth of talent in an attempt to explain away concepts and phenomena for which there is or can be no proof one way or another, I believe is an exercise in ego tripping. To use your analogy, if there is a farmer, how likely is it that a sheep could know what this farmer can do or has done or plans to do?

  42. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    the speed of light is constant

  43. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Not Saved
    Re You have resorted to finding god in the necks of giraffes and the asses of beetles.
    Come on, dont be so disrespectful of your fellow scientist, evolutionary theory is so widely accepted you might as well be telling me the earth is flat.

    It seems that you want me to put some serious licks in you, but I will continue to be patient with both you, Rohan and BAFBFP, because I sincerely believe that you guys are potentially good boys that are just playing the fool!

    Actually the science presented in the necks of giraffes and the asses of beetles is good evidence in favor of creationism. These are very unique phenomenon that can not be explained by natural selection. The likelihood that the blood circulation of the giraffe’s neck evolved is as likely as the Central Bank appearing over night complete with officers at their desks.

    I for one don’t accept evolutionary theory, and I am sure that you know that many scientists don’t either, and that some of the greatest scientists who have ever lived believed in God and creation and the God of the Bible. I am sure that you know these things.

    The silly story of the evolution of the length of the giraffes neck presented in an early post ( and around since the late 60’s) has long been debunked. In the scenario presented, nearly all of the other herbivorous animals would most certainly have beeen eliminated by the time that giraffes were surviving only because of their lengthy necks. In addition since female giraffes are considerably shorter than male giraffes, there would be NO female giraffes around to bare future generations to continue the species. Apparently there is a need to have female giraffes around to bare future generations to continue the species.

    I am sure if you look into the necks of giraffes and the asses of beetles, and the life histories of numerous members of both the flora and the fauna, that you will find an abundance of evidence to support the relationship between DNA and the concept of “after its kind” as stated nine times in Genesis 1.

    I am sure also that you know that the various types of mutations discovered since the discovery of DNA, and long after Darwin’s experiments on natural selection, are usually deleterious and often cause diseases including cancers. But I have dealt with this on another thread already (Obama etc)

    I respect that you have your views and beliefs, and that they will not necessarily coincide with mine, but at least give me credit for understanding a little bit of Science too.

  44. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @BAFBFP

    I follow you. (BTW the speed of light is constant -to the best of our knowledge)

    Back to my farmer.

    …agreed that the chances of a sheep knowing the farmer’s plan are next to zero.
    However, what if the sheep had been designed in the farmer’s image and given a ‘farmer-like’ mind unlike any other creature?

    What if the farmer then made special arrangements that certain sheep could come to know his plan?

    ..of course to all the other sheep this would all be bare moo LOL

    I know for sure that Rohan will pass some sheep wee wee on that analogy LOL

  45. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @BAFBFP

    Man my problem is with the label “Atheism”. I have no problem helping you set up the organisation but I would have serious problems being part of it.

    From the use of the term, atheism, we would be setting up an organisation directly opposed to Christianity. They bastardised the word, we would either have to re-define it (which would be a lot of work) or find a new term that reflects people that do not believe in the God of the Bible but have an alternative view and belief.

    Furthermore, we have more problems with the use of the word “god”. The Christians have been able to brainwash people into thinking that when you use the term God, you are speaking of the God of the Bible; like they have a monopoly on the term. Therefore, the slightest talk about God and you will be hearing them talk about False God as if theirs ain’t false too.

    There can be no argument that even the atheist believes in something. In the same way that the christian considers the bible to be true, it is the same way that the atheist will look at his evidence and consider it to be true, though based on a different paradigm.

    Hence this definition of God to be the God of the Bible and that any other is false, is very dangerous. This in itself has the scoffing and stigmatising effect on atheist and to my mind, atheism is not addressing the central core of that belief, but exists as a defense against christianity; not even as an alternative view but in direct apposition.

    This is not a healthy posture. Atheist need to define themselves rather than let others define them. We also have to be careful that by using the term atheism as a convenience, we do not pigeon hole ourselves.

    Maybe Atheist International has a specific agenda to oppose the church and catholicism. Is that what you would want to do or is it that we would be on a search to establish truth? Are we in the right pigeon hole?

    We need to say to people that we believe in something; even if it is believing that belief is a lie. Or you can say that not to believe is still to believe in something. Maybe we can speak of the Creator. It needs to be defined and must have a language identifiable with its followers.

    Therefore, we never speak of gods because gods are mortal, we speak of the Creator. Secondly, you can’t refer to the Creator as He or She. You would have to settle on nomenclature that would reflect that the Creator is “He, She and It” in one. I have always argued that this is part of where the trinity comes from but is also inclusive of solid, liquid and gas. The Creator created the Gods too but I believe that the Gods deeply understand the importance of three as the material source of life and how it is replicated throughout the universe.

    But BAFBFP, I realise that I am here answering you earnestly, when in truth and in fact you may have thrown out a red herring. Well, let we see if the cats snap.

  46. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    BAFBFP
    You say that “I am not a particularly humble individual; frankly I find humility a façade.”

    I was taught in church as a teen that if you were humble, that you would not even know that you were.

    I don’t think that believers do not think that they can be challenged. Rather believers defend their positions zealously because of the teaching of 1 Peter 3:15. I expect that you will tell me why you believe what you do, or why you don’t believe. You should expect me to defend my position as well. I am not here to win a contest, but to witness concerning my profession of faith, of which I am not at all ashamed. I know the Bible fairly well, and will share what I know at the drop of a hat. Similarly, I will relate the Science I have learned to the Bible, and do so in an honest way.

    I do not perceive ego tripping in either MME or BT. They come over to me as men who have searched, and found out that in which they believe, and they proclaim it simply, though sometime nebulously or in parables (in my view.)

    Zoe is clearly a Baptist Preacher, who presents the Truth of the Word with a greater degree of zeal. I think we should appreciate that. I dont think he is a criminal because of the way he presents himself.He presents good material that is found in the relevant literature, and from sources that I have frequently seen touted in the bibliographies of well respected authors on the subject matter.

    Many of his critics on this forum do not present any information of substance, nor do they demonstrate any evidence of any scholarship on the issues.

  47. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Sir Bentwood Dick

    “By the way, I reiterate, that some things are only explainable by believing…”

    Talk about B.E. You can explain nothing by believing. What is wrong with saying, I don’t know? Anytime you seek to explain based on belief, you perpetrate a lie according to how somebody sees it and not how it really is but is purporting it to be so. That makes it misleading and barely short of dishonest minus the “mens rea”, because for the most part, Christians know not what they do.

    Here is where there should be a standard of professional conduct from all quarters that demands professionals to indicate their assumptions up-front rather than try to explain away something that they know nothing about.

    Christians are very irresponsible and Christianity and religion in general are institutionalised enemies of the truth. Well that is to put it mildly; more like tyrannical terror-mongers. In all this I must admit that the established church do not take the same position as these wayside preachers and actually recognise that theirs is solely based on belief. Hence they would not get into this argument at all, they just not going down that road about proof either because they know there is no proof outside the bible.

    These people like GP and Zoe who would seek to use the bible as proof of anything don’t have the first clue about their own faith and more and more i am tending to agree with Errington Massiah that these people are the greatest enemy of Christianity.

    The Massiah spoke eloquently! well BAFBFP, he is an old Lodge dog, LOL!

  48. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Now BAFBFP, as I said before, note that in the form of a parable BT in his last post has, in my view gone in to the very deep truths of John 1o which I will post below- As you read,
    give special consideration to words like SHEEP VOICE ONE SHEPHERD DOOR SHHEPFOLD

    1 VERILY, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
    2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
    3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
    4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
    5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
    6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
    7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
    8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
    9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

    15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
    16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    Perhaps BT has heard the VOICE of the SHEPHERD and KNOW HIM.What do you think?

  49. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    BAFBFP,

    Don’t worry with GP. When it comes to truth, belief is nothing to defend.

  50. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @Zoe

    ” Zoe // May 1, 2009 at 1:45 pm. Rok, has finally admitted, that: “Truth is certainly absolute.””

    You see Zoe, what you don’t understand is that you don’t have the truth, and what you claiming to be absolute is not truth.

    Yes the truth is absolute and what you spout is what you believe to be absolute and not what is absolute.

    Shall I repeat again?

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