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Barbados Association Of Professional Engineers And The ABC Highway

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Submitted by BU Family Member

Artist Impression Of The Proposed Flyover At A Roundabout In Barbados

Do the light poles look any different now from those on any section of the highway?

(BAPE said the lightpole bases “looked small” 😉

Does the island in the Belle still look too far out in the road now the road is completed?

(Another BAPE point)

Now that the wells that were planned uphill from the Haggatt Hall area are in place, is there still water “sheeting” across the road?

(BAPE jumped to a wonderful evaluation on an incomplete project)

Now that we STILL have backups at the roundabouts is BAPE willing to admit that flyovers just MAY be warranted?

Its beginning to look more and more like the Barbados Association of Professional Engineers was either

(1) playing politics itself,

(2) being used to further others political ends or

(3) just didn’t know what they were talking about!

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449 responses to “Barbados Association Of Professional Engineers And The ABC Highway”

  1. Tell me Why Avatar
    Tell me Why

    3S were working in the capacity of consultants dont you understand?
    You dont need vast amounts of consultants and indeed the only 5 people is yet another lie put out by the DLP media.
    ……………………………………………………..
    Consultants without experience. RU4real?

    The 5 personnel was on 3s web site. Nothing to do with anyone in Barbados. Ru4real to deny the said 3S website?

  2. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    Ah… At last… The “truth” comes out…

    Because an “engineer” (read: one Mr. Andrew Hutchinson, Managing Principal at Stantec Inc., Engineer Responsible for Designing the Highway Expansion Project) “believes that the flyovers will and should be built in the future”, it must happen.

    After all, this was “reported” by a “reporter” on 2008.10.28 in our esteemed “Fourth Estate”, so it must be true!

    (Let us not concern ourselves with the fact that Mr. Hutchinson is in a biased position, or the fact that the article quoted by our own ru4real cannot be found on the Internet…)

    Mr. Andrew Hutchinson: may I please request that you (personally) step forward, and explain to us simple people just how the flyovers *will* alleviate any of the traffic congestion issues we’re seeing?

    Please leave your yappy lapdog at the office. He only soils the carpet whenever we find him around here…

  3. Tell me Why Avatar
    Tell me Why

    his is according to the engineer responsible for designing the Highway Expansion Project, Managing Principal at Stantec Inc., Andrew Hutchinson,
    ………………………………………………………
    Do you expect anything different from someone whose bread will be buttered if flyovers are built.

  4. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    ROFL… ru4real, don’t worry with Chris, Tell-me-Why and Bush tea… they’re just coulrophobic.
    If laughter is good for the soul, you must be heaven sent. 🙂
    Given your reluctance to answer any of the questions posed previously, I thought you might be one of those people who prefer multiple choice… so here goes:

    1. Who prepared the engineering designs for phase 1 of Project Free-flow i.e. road widening, drainage etc.?
    A. Stantec
    B. 3S
    C. Bush tea

    2. Who prepared the engineering designs for phase 2 of Project Free-flow, i.e. flyovers?
    A. SAI Consulting Engineers
    B. 3S
    C. Chris Hallsal

    3. Who conducted the feasibility study and cost-benefit analysis that recommended flyovers, prior to awarding the project to 3S?
    A. Nobody
    B. 3S
    C. Barbados Underground Inc.

    4. Were competitive tenders invited for this multi-million dollar design/build project?
    A. No
    B. Yes
    C. “I take the Fifth”

    5. How many of 3S’s five employees were registered engineers?
    A. None
    B. One
    C. More than one

    It’s an open book test, and you can take as much time as you like. I’m rooting for you ru4real… you’ve always struck me as a straight-A student 🙂

  5. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    …oops, spelt your name wrong Chris. My apologies.

  6. Dear Father, The PEOPLE Need Your Help! « Barbados Underground

    […] out of the long and robust debate on the blog Barbados Association Of Professional Engineers And The ABC Highway BU family member Chris Halsall took the initiative to submit an email to David Scantlebury at the […]

  7. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    And got the usual lies in return.

    Check with the Office of Cheryl Bennett Innis.

    Ms Bennett Innis is the chief traffic engineer for Barbados.

  8. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    The whole problem here is that everyone is concerned with proving the idea wrong.

    Everything that the previous administration did was wrong.
    This is not correct the BLP got things done and got things done for the people of Barbados.

    So as to minimize the damage done by the PM in stopping a feasible project just because it was politically expedient.

    That it is the correct solution to the traffic problem is correct.

    That the government thought it would be too expensive in the present climate could be.

    So it would have been better to say this upfront instead .

    The delays cause by the politically motivate cabal in MPT have increased the cost.

    Certainly.

    Naturally people like Mr Scanterbury will deny seeing anything.

    ( He was after all only MPTs man supposedly in charge of the project)

    And in three years did’nt see/hear anything?

    The wise monkey syndrome strikes again.

  9. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Victor

    You do Mr Hutchinson a dis service.
    I am sure that his bread and butter doesn’t only depend on designing flyovers.
    He has the integrity to speak the truth.

    Why does everyone assume that someone else is in it for something ?

    Some people do speak the truth.
    Some people want to do a good job.
    Some people are not driven by excess greed or political advancement

    Is your favorite company COW building the road for free?
    On the contrary both COW and Rayside are charging the government premium rates.

  10. Tell me Why Avatar
    Tell me Why

    @ ru4real.
    Why is Rayside installing the Jersey Barriers after laying barber green? Should it not be in the reverse?

  11. Brutus Avatar
    Brutus

    Nuff licks sharing – I beginning to feel sorry for ru4real! 🙂

    Here is how the news article summarizes the comments by Andrew Hutchinson –

    “THE construction of five flyovers along the ABC Highway should be carried out in order to alleviate the traffic congestion that is still being experienced at roundabouts.”

    If all Hutchinson is saying is that the flyovers will reduce (or eliminate) traffic congestion at the roundabouts (on the highway) then I don’t see much to disagree with.

    However I hope that he is not saying that this is all there is to the issue.

  12. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “The whole problem here is that everyone is concerned with proving the idea wrong.”
    —————————

    Focus ru4real… focus. How will you ever finish that multiple-choice test if you keep drifting? Here is an excellent online resource that may help you in this regard… http://www.add.org/

    The REAL issue here isn’t whether or not the idea was a good one… it was the unprofessional manner in which you and your team tried to justify and implement your idea.

    Permission to re-sit the test is granted. I have a lot of patience with my slower students… I’m confident that with just a little more focus and application, you will pass with flying colours. 🙂

  13. permres Avatar
    permres

    I have said this before, and I say it again. Obviously flyovers would reduce congestion at the roundabouts, especially for those on the Highway.

    For those going into town, they will get past the roundabout, only to back-up from the next blockage on any feeder road into town. Stopped buses, traffic out of side gaps, traffic lights, slow vehicles e.g. snow cone carts, etc. They will back-up to the roundabout, then typically in Barbados those on the roundabout will not give way to the Highway travellers when their exit is blocked.

  14. permres Avatar
    permres

    Sorry, I should have said those coming off the Highway, wanting to go into town, will add to this back-up.

  15. David Avatar
    David

    We have commented before that the plan by the previous government was to rollout 8 flyovers on the ABC highway but MORE were to follow i.e. the strategy was to use flyovers in other parts of Barbados.

    Remember we had a very long interview with an Executive at Mabeys before he got cold feet!

  16. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    David why dont you take up fictional writing for a living you do it so well.

    As someone said at the beginning of this thread

    Finally someone is touching a nerve and the truth.

    Thats why all the lies are are getting more and more elaborate.

  17. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Permres

    Do stop worrying your head about possible solutions.

    The only thing that people on this blog are interested in is, not the truth, but in trying to shift the blame away from those who wasted public money on sabotaging a government project for political reasons.

  18. permres Avatar
    permres

    Thanks for the advice, ru4real, but as a retiree my worrying days are long gone. This is a hobby.

    Concerning the shenanigans of those who think they have a little power and wish to line their pockets through it, this has never concerned me and never will. I leave them to God.

    I have a clean driving record after fifty years of driving, and nothing on the road alarms or confuses me. I enjoy a good Bajan exchange with anyone who seems to me to have done something stupid, but no road rage, although to others it may sometimes seem so.

    P.S. I often do not understand the Bajan dialect being hurled at me, but that does not stop me from engaging.

  19. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @Little Lapdog: “The whole problem here is that everyone is concerned with proving the idea wrong.

    Kind little doggie… You have this exactly backwards…

    You see, there is no longer any need to prove the idea wrong. The idea is dead.

    It is up to those advocating this idea to prove it *correct*.

    The People of Barbados are being asked to spend at *least* 80 million on an idea which many (inclusive of myself) think (with good reason) won’t actually help the majority of the population.

    Please forgive me for this, but one of the things I do is due diligence. All I’m (personally) asking for is the study/studies which showed (scientifically) that the flyovers would help.

    BTW, I will once again be calling your bluff, and raising you a request for same. I will be contacting M. Cheryl Bennett Innis for the report *you* say supports the arguement *for* flyovers.

    (And, if I receive it, I will apply a critical review of same. I will report back here with whatever empirical results are observed.)

  20. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    Brutus: “If all Hutchinson is saying is that the flyovers will reduce (or eliminate) traffic congestion at the roundabouts (on the highway) then I don’t see much to disagree with.

    Sadly, even this statement is not true…

    It is a common mistake of inexperienced modellers to take an instantaneous sample of the results of a change to a dynamic system immediately after the change.

    “Run” the simulation for, lets say, an hour during peek usage periods, and you’ll see that because of the constrained “drains”, you simply end up with the congestion being moved back up the “system” (read: along the ABC Highway).

    I *really*, *REALLY* want to see the elusive study. It was (in my opinion) conducted by someone with no actual experience in dynamic systems.

  21. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @ Chris

    What gives you the qualifications or expertise to critque people who have masters degrees in the subject ?
    You sound forgive me if Im wrong some sort of computer geek with a degree in BS.
    Theory is always much easier than practise.
    If you havent seen any of the studies how can you give an opinion on them?
    Much less the master traffic engineers who made them?
    In fact your language seems to me that of a smart ass kid shouldn’t you be doing your homework?

  22. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    I would also like to point out that attacking and using childish insults is a sure sign that you have a weak arguement

    Yes you have no flyovers but you still have a massive congestion problem – enjoy!

  23. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @ru4real… Oh, you gave me so much to work with. I’ve had to hold back from what I *really* wanted to say, and (unlike you) will simply respond to your points directly.

    @ru4real: “What gives you the qualifications or expertise to critque people who have masters degrees in the subject ?

    Absolutely nothing… Other than being a certified Genius, and having a great deal of experience in dynamic systems.

    @ru4real: “Theory is always much easier than practise.

    I agree completely. Which is why whenever I’ve interviewed potential employees, I’ve looked past their “paper”, and challenge them to show me they can actually *think*!

    This is also when I’m told that I must accept something because someone with “paper” says it’s correct, my “bu11 sh1t detector” screams at me loudly, and I ask to personally review the analysis…

    @ru4real: “If you havent seen any of the studies how can you give an opinion on them?

    It’s called inference. (AKA the “bu11 sh1t d3t3ct0r”.) If you know (or can deduce) the inputs, and you know (or can deduce) the outputs, than any thinking entity should be able to infer the “black box” in the middle…

    Please do note that I keep requesting (from you, and others) for these studies, but they don’t seem to be available. If I’m such an ignorant fool, then surely these would be safe to give to me.

    @ru4real: “I would also like to point out that attacking and using childish insults is a sure sign that you have a weak arguement

    Humour is such a subjective thing, isn’t it?

    (Who let the Dogs Out? (“Woof woof. Woof woof!”))

  24. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Absolutely nothing… Other than being a certified Genius, and having a great deal of experience in dynamic systems
    ——————————————-
    Modest too.

  25. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Humour for geeks

    1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d

    Or 4t l34st g37 4 lif3

  26. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @ru4real…

    Hey, just calling it the way it is… (Try it some time…)

    And thanks for the suggestion, but7 1 g3t 141d r3gu14r1y…

  27. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    By the way @ru4r341…

    M1gh7 y0u b3 4b13 70 pr0v1d3 70 u$ s1mpl3 f01k 7h3 $7ud13$ y0u’v3 $41d w111 pr0v3 7h3 f1y0v3r$ w111 $0lv3 7h3 7r4ff1c 1$$u3$ 1n Barb4d0$?

  28. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Easily
    Without them you have what you have now.

  29. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    The flyovers as I have explained many many times , ( there are none so deaf as those who chose not to hear) were never intended to be the solution to ALL of Barbados traffic problem. It was part of a complete traffic system that included park and ride/ new bus routes .

    It was also planned to accommodate traffic volume for 25 years.

    A innovative idea well thought out and destroyed by selfish ambition.

  30. permres Avatar
    permres

    Well, an admission at last! The flyovers were really only for the wealthy to get easily from the airport to the West Coast, and they were prioritised to the top of the list!

  31. David Avatar
    David

    We have read this position posed by Chris that the flyovers were built to appease the West Coast constituent. We don’t have the facts to support this position but it is plausible given the unbridled development on the West Coast.

    Were conditions placed on government as a precondition for development dollars?

  32. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Well, an admission at last! The flyovers were really only for the wealthy to get easily from the airport to the West Coast, and they were prioritised to the top of the list!
    —————————————-

    In a blog full of stupid uniformed statements this must rank as one of the most dumb.

    Its the sort of witless statement similar to one by a BAPE member who wanted a 6 lane highway ( like we have in Toronto) and more traffic lights.

    Is it ONLY the wealthy who use the ABC highway?

    They overpass were part of a complete traffic scheme.
    You have to start SOMEWHERE and the logical and correct place to sart is the freeing up of the major artweial road.

    Otherwise you end up like BAPE or like this blog doing nothing and criticizing everything.
    One good thing about the previous administration was that it got things done.

  33. permres Avatar
    permres

    A very well-known problem with blogging and Internet fora is that we start going around in circles, posters forget or ignore what has already been said. It reminds me of that old Rugby Union joke about the oozlem oozlem bird, who flew in ever-decreasing circles and finally disappeared up its *******!

    If my comment was stupid, I certainly wasn’t the first one to make it. I have already said that we will all use something provided for others as long as it is not privately owned.

    I cannot see the logic of spending millions on a highway, before spending, I would have thought, far less on improving public transport and park n’ ride. Ordinary people first please, and I think we have a government now committed to that.

    When I came to Barbados in 1996, I was confused by the number of major projects, which were then neglected because of lack of maintenance. Even now the old ABC Highway falls into disrepair far too often, I shudder to think how the flyovers would be in 25 years time if we had built them now.

  34. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    The overpass construction came with a 10 year maintenance guarantee.

    The ABC highway and indeed many of the roads in Barbados need repairing often because the initial work done is slip shod and of a very low standard,

  35. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    We have read this position posed by Chris that the flyovers were built to appease the West Coast constituent. We don’t have the facts to support this position but it is plausible given the unbridled development on the West Coast.
    ————————————–
    Not plausible at all.
    Just another red herring!

  36. Straight talk Avatar
    Straight talk

    ru4real:

    10 year guarantee on the flyovers?

    What are the terms of the 25 year BOLT?

    What responsibilities did 3S undertake?

    What happened to Build, Operate, Lease and Transfer?

    Four more questions for you to answer in addition to those you are avoiding from CH.

  37. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    As I said a 10 year maintenance guarantee on the overpasses was included in the original agreement.

    I dont know what the terms of the BOLT are these are questions best put to BNB.

  38. permres Avatar
    permres

    I do not think you have really addressed my point, ru4real. Maintenance guarantees, whether six months on a refridgerator, or 12 on a car, whatever, do not cover the long term use of the item. My point is, the maintenance of expensive projects, perhaps for prestige but I suspect to line the pockets of the perpetrators, are not budgeted for, over the long term. (10 years is nowhere near 25, and certainly not a lifetime).

    Why should they be budgeted for, as long as the ones who have lined their pockets can just disappear, leaving the rest of us burdened with the maintenance?

  39. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @David: “We have read this position posed by Chris that the flyovers were built to appease the West Coast constituent. We don’t have the facts to support this position but it is plausible given the unbridled development on the West Coast.

    @ru4r431: “Not plausible at all. Just another red herring!

    @ru4r431: “In a blog full of stupid uniformed statements this must rank as one of the most dumb.

    Really? Interesting…

    Because, having personally run the simulation many, many times on my “wet ware”, this is the only “upside” I can determine.

    @ru4r341… Once again, I request from you the *studies* which showed the long-term economic benefit to the “majority of the population” of Barbados who are being asked to *PAY* for this 80+ million in capital expenditure…

    Surely this study will prove me wrong. I’m always more than happen to be proven thusly. (It doesn’t happen often, mind you, but it does happen…)

    @ru4r341: PROVE ME WRONG!!!!

  40. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Do you think the present administration is going to give any Tom Dick of Harry the studies that prove the overpasses were a very viable project.
    One that their own supporters have delayed and frustrated in order to embarrass the previous government.

  41. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    10 years is nowhere near 25, and certainly not a lifetime).

    Why should they be budgeted for, as long as the ones who have lined their pockets can just disappear, leaving the rest of us burdened with the maintenance?
    ———————————–
    Oh for heavens sake get real.
    10 years on a major civil project is a very generous guarantee.
    No construction project can be guaranteed by the constructors for ever.
    An overpass may last longer than 25 years – this number was not the life of the overpass but the time that it would
    cope with the traffic!
    Overpasses or roads all have to be maintained – what do you want someone to do everything for you for ever?

  42. permres Avatar
    permres

    Tom, Dick or Harry are you and me, ru4real. It really does not matter who is in government, we the people should be able to access any information which relates to our membership of this country. Excluding national security, of course, but I do not think flyovers threaten that (apart from economically, perhaps).

  43. Nostradamus Avatar
    Nostradamus

    @ru4real
    Do you think the present administration is going to give any Tom Dick of Harry the studies that prove the overpasses were a very viable project.
    ————————————————–
    Nostradamus would like to know:
    1) Was there a Request For Proposals?
    2) Was there a tender process?

  44. Looking on.... Avatar
    Looking on….

    I have heard the argument about flyovers only allowing people to go from the airport to the seaport quickly but not helping anyone who has any other routing. However this is not true.

    I drive the highway every morning.

    I slow down and wait at every roundabout.

    If there is an obstruction or traffic on the N/S road into town (which is almost every morning) traffic backs up through the roundabout an onto the highway.

    The time spent between roundabouts goes very quickly but more than half of my time is spent waiting at roundabouts to go through them.

    I get on highway 2A go thru Warrens and get off the highway in Wildey, every morning.

    I wait at the Simpson Motors roundabout.

    I wait to get through the second roundabout

    I transit relatively quickly to the start of the traffic at Hothersal and then wait to get through that roundabout.

    I cross the Belle at a good clip and then wait to get through the Salters roundabout.

    I generally queue in traffic all the way to the Bussa roundabout because of the heavy traffic coming down Mapp Hill.

    I get to Wildey.

    If I was able to “fly over” the crossing traffic at each roundabout my time on the highway would be cut by about 75%. Widening the highway does not change the fact that an accident at Combermere junction backs traffic up onto the highway at Hothersal Turning.

    Yet these people continue to argue against the flyovers. Their lack of vision is amazing.

  45. David Avatar
    David

    The argument from BU is against the tendering process used. It was not transparent. Even Mia Mottley has admitted that it was not the best.

  46. Looking on.... Avatar
    Looking on….

    Perhaps David but much of the argument on here and on this thread is that the concept of “flyovers” is a waste of money and not needed in Barbados.

    While I agree that the process was suspect at best, the concept was workable and in fact what is needed.

  47. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “While I agree that the process was suspect at best, the concept was workable and in fact what is needed.”
    ————————–

    I think that too many people subscribe to the philosophy that the end justifies the means, and are willing to forego principle, transparency and sound business practices for the sake of expediency… often to the long-term detriment of themselves and those affected by their decisions.

  48. permres Avatar
    permres

    Looking on…., so you get to Wildey 75% more quickly, and so does everyone else who wants to turn to town at Wildey. I do not think you will be able to hold onto your 75%, unless you work left off the Highway, say at C&W.

    You cannot put more vehicles into narrow roads just because you get there more quickly, I think.

  49. Brutus Avatar
    Brutus

    Looking on…. how many people would have to get to their destination a lot faster for the flyovers to be worth the expenditure? How much faster on average would they have to get there?

  50. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @Looking on….: “If I was able to “fly over” the crossing traffic at each roundabout my time on the highway would be cut by about 75%.

    What part of this isn’t clear? You won’t “fly over” the congested traffic at each roundabout, you’ll crawl over…

    Why? Because of the congestion at the *NEXT* roundabout / flyover backing up the highway. The ABC between roundabouts effectively become a “capacitor”, storing the vehicles which are wanting to turn off into a constrained “drain” ahead.

    In fact, your particular route would probably end up with little or no savings in time. (IMHO.)

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