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Barbados Association Of Professional Engineers And The ABC Highway

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Submitted by BU Family Member

Artist Impression Of The Proposed Flyover At A Roundabout In Barbados

Do the light poles look any different now from those on any section of the highway?

(BAPE said the lightpole bases “looked small” 😉

Does the island in the Belle still look too far out in the road now the road is completed?

(Another BAPE point)

Now that the wells that were planned uphill from the Haggatt Hall area are in place, is there still water “sheeting” across the road?

(BAPE jumped to a wonderful evaluation on an incomplete project)

Now that we STILL have backups at the roundabouts is BAPE willing to admit that flyovers just MAY be warranted?

Its beginning to look more and more like the Barbados Association of Professional Engineers was either

(1) playing politics itself,

(2) being used to further others political ends or

(3) just didn’t know what they were talking about!

Related Link

Owen Arthur Infers Local Barbadian Engineers Are B-Class

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449 responses to “Barbados Association Of Professional Engineers And The ABC Highway”

  1. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Chris

    There will be no congestion because there will be a flyover at each major roundabout. and the two central lanes will enable the free flow of traffic on the ABC.

    Even a simpleton can grasp a simple concept like this .

    So carry on playing with the computor
    dont give up the day job if you have one ( shouldnt you be working rather than blogging

    I shall take a break I am tired of casting my pearls among the proverbial

  2. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @ru4real: “There will be no congestion because there will be a flyover at each major roundabout. and the two central lanes will enable the free flow of traffic on the ABC.

    Ah, yes, of course. The central lanes are for straight-through traffic only.

    And, of course, because Bajans are so very law abiding on the roads (particularly the Z and ZR drivers), no one will take advantage of this and rush ahead in the central lane to try to barge in at the last few tens of meters…

  3. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Tom, Dick or Harry are you and me, ru4real. It really does not matter who is in government, we the people should be able to access any information which relates to our membership of this country. Excluding national security, of course, but I do not think flyovers threaten that (apart from economically, perhaps).
    ——————————————-
    You are absolutely right Permres
    So what has the Ministry got to hide?
    Apart from all its own expensive delaying tactics that is.

  4. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    And, of course, because Bajans are so very law abiding on the roads (particularly the Z and ZR drivers), no one will take advantage of this and rush ahead in the central lane to try to barge in at the last few tens of meters…

    —————————————–

    Are you saying that your fellow Bajans are fools and will be unable to negotiate a simple concept like an overpass?

    How patronizing first you like to see than sweat in traffic jams for want of a simple and effective solution now you imply they are all idiots who shouldn’t be on the roads at all. Do you breed donkeys for a living and hope for the comeback of the cart?

  5. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Yet these people continue to argue against the flyovers. Their lack of vision is amazing.
    —————————————

    Absolutely gob smacking!!

  6. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    The argument from BU is against the tendering process used. It was not transparent. Even Mia Mottley has admitted that it was not the best.
    ———————————————
    She did’nt say it was the worse either.
    Did the present consultants tender for the completion of the job?

  7. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Consultants without experience. RU4real
    ———————————————
    This is libel Mr Franklin be careful
    The 3S team comprised of people who all have ample international experience in this field.

  8. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @ru4real: “Are you saying that your fellow Bajans are fools and will be unable to negotiate a simple concept like an overpass?

    No. I’m saying that it is human nature to try to maximize one’s returns (and/or minimize one’s costs), even if this results in a loss to others. This is the fundamental basis of economics. And anyone who designs *any* system without taking this into account is a fool. (Including, I might point out, banking regulators…)

    I find it interesting that your proposed flyovers only work if people obey the laws.

    And yet, my proposed change to the laws with regards to entering a roundabout only if you can immediately exit (which would result in the same net effect as law abiding flyover use) was rejected by you out of hand.

    Hummm… What’s your real motivation here ru4real? Are you *really* for real?

  9. notesfromthemargin Avatar
    notesfromthemargin

    “I find it interesting that your proposed flyovers only work if people obey the laws.”

    Chris,

    perhaps I should point out that the same thing could be said for traffic lights.

    M.

  10. Tell me Why Avatar
    Tell me Why

    @ Lookin on…..
    You are missing the point regarding flyovers, aka RAMPS. The problem is not the North/South issue, but the myriads of roads leading to the city. These flyovers would only be effective for the N/S traffic for two hours in the morning and two hours after work. But the problem will still be there for vehicles getting into and out of the city.

  11. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @ru4real… Please note that I’m aware I’m kicking a dead dog, but for some reason I keep hearing barking…

    Please show to us simple people the laws which say that only those passing straight through a flyover are allowed in the centre lane.

    Humm… Don’t exist yet? So, by deduction, these will have to introduced. Correct?

    How will these new laws be enforced?

    How is this any different than my proposed changes to the laws with regards to the roundabouts?

    (Other than, of course, $80+ million in capital works?)

  12. Brutus Avatar
    Brutus

    Chris,

    Please clarify what you are saying about congestion in the centre lanes because people “will take advantage of this and rush ahead in the central lane to try to barge in at the last few tens of meters…”

    My understanding is that the centre lanes would take you onto the flyover and over the roundabout. If you stay in the centre lane too long you would have no choice but to go over the flyover.

    Alternatively, if you are planning to exit at the roundabout, the exit lane is likely to be free so why would you try to remain in the centre lane as long as possible?

    What am I missing?

  13. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @Brutus: “What am I missing?

    You are missing human nature…

    @Brutus: “My understanding is that the centre lanes would take you onto the flyover and over the roundabout. If you stay in the centre lane too long you would have no choice but to go over the flyover.

    Yes. However, it would be to an individual’s advantage to stay in the centre lane until the *last* possible moment, and then jump in in front of those in the outside (left) lane.

    @Brutus: “Alternatively, if you are planning to exit at the roundabout, the exit lane is likely to be free so why would you try to remain in the centre lane as long as possible?

    Wrong!!! Again, because of the constrained “drains”, most exit lanes will *not* be free during rush hours.

    In fact, my simulations have suggested to me that it might be to the advantage of knowledgeable road users to pass over a roundabout, circle around (read: turn 180 degrees) and enter a turn-off coming from the opposite direction.

    Empirical data on this is available now upon our own roads…

    If you’re approaching a congested roundabout, and the lane you’re in is stopped but the next over lane is moving, what do you do? Not all, but many will change lanes, even if they know they have to change lanes again just before the roundabout.

    Another empirical data-point: heading south to the top of Pine Hill (to what used to be lights outside of Pine Hill Dairy / CBC)… I personally used to regularly observe drivers taking the right lane and then jumping into the left lane to pass straight through, even if this interrupted those who were already in the left lane, *AND* those who were in the right lane.

    And, finally, let me please once again present that my idea of “only enter a roundabout if you can immediately exit” would have the *exact* same results as flyovers.

  14. notesfromthemargin Avatar
    notesfromthemargin

    “In fact, my simulations have suggested to me that it might be to the advantage of knowledgeable road users to pass over a roundabout, circle around (read: turn 180 degrees) and enter a turn-off coming from the opposite direction.”

    Chris,

    Your “simulation” has ignored the concrete jersey barrier running down the centre of the road.

    Perhaps some more thought might be required.

    M.

    😀

  15. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @notesfromthemargin: “Perhaps some more thought might be required.

    Wow! I see the “big guns” have been brought forward. Bring it on!!!

    @nf7m: “Your “simulation” has ignored the concrete jersey barrier running down the centre of the road.

    Let X be the point where the “jersey barrier” begins. (It is (reasonably) assumed that X is somewhat less than the distance between the intersection involved and the previous intersection.)

    Let X+10 meters be the “decision point” of the independent, self interested entities trying to optimize their own self interests within this particular system…

    IMHO, my simulation stands, as do all of my above conclusions and statements.

  16. notesfromthemargin Avatar
    notesfromthemargin

    I’m flattered by the “big guns” comment, but I really find that your steadfast refusal to even consider the flyovers as an option is as amusing as RU4Real’s refusal to enter a discussion about what was CLEARLY a flawed process.

    okay okay okay….

    To use your terms.

    I’m not sure what you mean by X is the point where the jersey barrier begins. The barrier is a continuous strip along the length of the road. I can’t recall if the images that I’ve seen say that it goes over the flyovers or not but it would seem to be a relatively simple matter to extend it to a point where the maneuver you talk about would be impractical.
    It is very easy to create a failure scenario when you build in “assumptions” that there will be a fatal design flaw.

    That said….

    I think we need to be clear that there are two separate arguments here.

    1. On the workability of flyovers.

    2. The tendering process for this case.

    I am in support of the flyovers, but I think the process that was used in this case needs to be fully investigated and let the chips fall where they may. I don’t think we should confuse the two arguments.

    I am old enough to remember much of the discussion about the original ABC highway. It was very much like the discussion about the flyovers. Many people like yourself trotted out arguments about why the ABC highway was unworkable or unnecessary. A week after it opened people wondered how they ever survived without it.

    Either way I DON’T think that simply widening the highway will help the issue.

    Marginal

  17. Brutus Avatar
    Brutus

    Chris, I think I see your point. If the exit lanes are clogged then people will certainly continue down the centre (flyover) lanes and try to exit at the last possible moment by “butting” into the clogged exit lane.

    There are definitely some roundabouts where it is reasonable to expect that the exit lanes will clogged during rush hour.

    Do we know whether there would be two lanes going over the flyover in either direction, or only a single lane?

  18. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @notesfromthemargin… Funny…

    Please trust me when I tell you that I’ve considered the option of flyovers deeply, and I find it profoundly wanting…

    “Let X be” is a common and standard term for modellers and coders.

    In this particular context, “X” is the distance from the intersection being considered, along any route into same. To be more explicit, X is equal to 0 at the intersection (X == 0), X is equal to 10m at 10 meters from the intersection (or 33 feet, if you’re American and/or backwards), etc….

    For the record, I don’t reject *anything*, unless I think it’s stupid. And even then, I’m happy to be proven wrong…

    (Once again, will someone please prove me wrong?)

  19. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @Brutus: “Do we know whether there would be two lanes going over the flyover in either direction, or only a single lane?

    I, personally, *know* nothing about the plans. I’m simply working from inference and deduction.

    I’m hoping (and keep asking) that those that do might share…

  20. Nostradamus Avatar
    Nostradamus

    @ru4real

    You ignored my earlier post with the questions:

    1) Was there a Publicly advertised Request For Proposals?
    2) Was there a publicly advertised tender process?

    If the answers are yes , then where and when?

  21. Tell me Why Avatar
    Tell me Why

    @All.
    Due to the postponement of flyovers, and the wide area close to roundabouts beening paved and the erection of jersey barriers, IMHO, I am of the believe that we will see three lanes prior to each roundabout. The LEFT lane will be for vehicles going left; and the INSIDE and RIGHT lanes are the continuation of the two-lane system.

  22. Tell me Why Avatar
    Tell me Why

    roundabouts been/being paved

  23. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @Tell me Why…

    Let me suggest a slight change to your proposal…

    Assuming three lanes approach a roundabout…

    Let the Left Lane be for those wishing to exit on the left exit (read: turn -90 degrees).

    Let the Middle Lane be for those wishing to pass straight through…

    Let the Right Lane be for those wishing to exit on the right exit (read: turn 90 degrees).

    Let no one enter the roundabout if they can’t immediately exit.

    Let there be a fine for anyone who doesn’t follow these rules…

  24. David Avatar
    David

    We commend Chris for manfully defending his position in the absence of empirical data which really should not be the case. We reiterate that the tendering process was flawed but the debate about whether we should have flyovers is an open one.

    The point which has not been given enough focus is the impact, if any on the aesthetic value of the island which is an integral part of the brand which makes our island appealing. Remember that we are primarily a tourist destination.

    To what extent would flyovers detract from the island feel and possibly lead to fallout in the tourism sector?

  25. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    notesfromthemargin: “I am in support of the flyovers”
    ——————————

    NFTM,

    How many? Where?

    I am surprised you would support ANY option in the absence of an independent economic and technical evaluation. You don’t strike me as someone that would justify millions in public expenditure on the basis of ‘gut-feeling’. Do you have information that the rest of us don’t?

    Personally, I think it would be better to reserve judgement on the ideal solution until the results from a technical and economic feasibility study is conducted and publicly shared.

  26. Tell me Why Avatar
    Tell me Why

    Let the Left Lane be for those wishing to exit on the left exit (read: turn -90 degrees).

    Let the Middle Lane be for those wishing to pass straight through…

    Let the Right Lane be for those wishing to exit on the right exit (read: turn 90 degrees).
    ……………………………………………………
    This is the same system I mentioned. It would be obvious for the vehicles on the right go straight and remain on the right hand side, OR, go around the round-about and exit at the first left or can keep circling the roundabout. But I do agree with another blogger that it will be a speed test to see which of the three drivers will make it to the double lane first.

  27. Tell me Why Avatar
    Tell me Why

    BTW you can see by the way certain commenters defending the flyovers are doing an aggressive marketing. Wonder why? Cha!!!!!!!!!

  28. notesfromthemargin Avatar
    notesfromthemargin

    Tell Me Why…

    The same way that Chris can run his “simulation” I can run mine. I drive the highway every day, I’m as entitled to an opinion as is anyone else on here. I have to say that Looking On’s view makes sense to me.

    I spend time waiting at roundabouts.

    I can appreciate that flyover will do nothing to fix the problems of the people who are crossing the highway to go into town if there is a backlog of traffic on the other side of the roundabout. However a flyover will stop their problem from becoming my problem or from becoming the problem of anyone traveling on the highway.

    Right now the traffic on the roads going into town obstructs the roundabouts. Hence traffic on the highway can’t transit the roundabout quickly. It slows down to a crawl and then backs up on the highway.

    Yes I will still wait at the roundabout that I want to get off at. However…..

    1. I won’t be waiting with a bunch of cars that just want to cross the roundabout to stay on the highway.

    2, Because the traffic actually using the roundabout would have been reduced hopefully it will work better.

    One of the things that I find frustrating is that people talk about traffic in Barbados as if it is a case of “Flyovers OR Deal with the roads going into town”. IMHO we have to do BOTH. Too much time is lost with our workforce sitting in traffic.

    To me, the use of some form of flyover/ramp/bridge at the roundabouts where the ABC highway cuts across previously existing highways is an OBVIOUS part of the solution.

    And TMW one final point, the people on here who vociferously stick to their guns that flyovers WILL NOT work have not seen any studies to that effect either!

  29. notesfromthemargin Avatar
    notesfromthemargin

    While I’m here….

    Chris the situation where there are two adjacent lanes of traffic that we discussed earlier exists at the traffic lights at Collymore Rock.

    Yes some cutting in happens but not enough to completely compromise the system. Why would the highway be any different?

    Just a thought.
    M.

  30. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @notesfromthemargin: “The same way that Chris can run his “simulation” I can run mine. I drive the highway every day, I’m as entitled to an opinion as is anyone else on here.

    Of course. Critical and free thinking, and open debate, (and, of course, transparency) is fundamental to a truly democratic society.

    @notesfromthemargin: “However a flyover will stop their problem from becoming my problem or from becoming the problem of anyone traveling on the highway.

    Perhaps. But so would my (much cheaper) idea of “don’t enter a roundabout unless you can immediately exit”. In fact, this idea would result in effectively the *SAME NET EFFECT*!

    I *KEEP* bringing this forward, and with good reason. If those advocating the flyovers are so sure they’ll solve some (but, importantly, not all) of the problem, then why is this idea rejected out of hand?

    notesfromthemargin: “One of the things that I find frustrating is that people talk about traffic in Barbados as if it is a case of “Flyovers OR Deal with the roads going into town”. IMHO we have to do BOTH. Too much time is lost with our workforce sitting in traffic.

    I agree. However, I would argue that the Flyovers are the *last* thing to be done, not the first…

  31. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @notesfromthemargin: “Chris the situation where there are two adjacent lanes of traffic that we discussed earlier exists at the traffic lights at Collymore Rock.

    “Yes some cutting in happens but not enough to completely compromise the system. Why would the highway be any different?

    An insightful question. Thank you for asking it.

    In order for a vehicle to change from lane A (let A be the right or centre lane) into lane B (let B be the left lane), the vehicles in each lane must be travelling at approximately the same speed, and space between the vehicles in lane B must exist to accommodate those vehicles from lane A wishing to enter.

    Because traffic lights introduce pulses into the traffic flow, at the Collymore lights there is a temporal window when traffic within the lanes are travelling at approximately the same speed, and so vehicles can change from A to B without compromising the “system”.

    However, I’ve personally (and I’m sure many others have) observed many cases where a vehicle in lane A wishing to pass straight through (read: need to be in lane B) have reached the lights (thus being forced to turn right), and stop because lane B’s lights have not yet turned green or they’ve not been allowed into the lane by drivers already in B. This then blocks vehicles in lane A, who miss the opportunity to turn right during the green light, and have to wait one “cycle” of the lights.

    Flyovers are not “pulsed”, or “clocked”. They’re a continuous stream. (Please note, however, than in the case of flyovers, lane A and B are reversed from the above Collymore Rock model. As in, A passes straight through, while B exits.)

    Therefore (IMHO), the “system” will converge to a state where lane A and lane B will effectively pass at the same rate, or with A being only slightly faster.

    @notesfromthemargin: “And TMW one final point, the people on here who vociferously stick to their guns that flyovers WILL NOT work have not seen any studies to that effect either!

    Agreed. Despite *many* requests for same.

    However, traffic modelling software is a standard tool used by engineers when considering different options. One might assume and expect that before $80+ million in capital works was undertaken, the studies examining *ALL* the available options would be presented to the public for consideration and peer-review.

  32. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @notesfromthemargin… One other critical point…

    It is impossible for a driver to speed up the lane they happen find themselves in. As in, they cannot force the traffic in front of them to drive faster. (Despite what tailgaters might think…)

    However, they *can* slow down the traffic *behind* them (by, for example, travelling slower than the posted speed limit while they match the speed in the lane they wish to enter into)…

  33. notesfromthemargin Avatar
    notesfromthemargin

    Chris,

    Here are what I see as the flaws in your arguments:

    1. “Perhaps. But so would my (much cheaper) idea of “don’t enter a roundabout unless you can immediately exit”. In fact, this idea would result in effectively the *SAME NET EFFECT*!”

    Can you see the opposite side of the roundabout when you enter it? also can you also see the traffic in the lane on your left about to enter as well? Bearing in mind that the highway traffic moves faster, people on the crossing roads would never move at all in this rule.

    2. When shoudl we do Flyovers?

    I agree. However, I would argue that the Flyovers are the *last* thing to be done, not the first…

    My view of it is that flyovers are perhaps one of the simpler and easier to implement options.

    Much of the back up on the roads leading into town stems from (in my opinion) the many many little feeder roads that turn on to the road. Traffic turns across both lanes both coming on and off the main road. Collymore Rock is possibly the most glaring example of this. Traffic stops to let people out or to wait for a space in oncoming traffic to turn into the feeder road. Given the sheer number of the smaller road I’m not at all sure there is an easy solution. At least not one that I can see.

    Perhaps we should start a thread on how do you improve traffic flow on the roads going into town? I’ve thought about it and it’s a much harder question than how to improve flow on the highway.

    3. Cutting in…

    By your own logic flyovers are not “pulsed” hence there are unlikely to be open spaces to cut in.

    This simple fact makes successful cutting in a HIGHLY unlikely proposition. However in the highways case the option of stopping is not available as in the case of traffic lights. The “cutter” will be forced to go over the roundabout. This scenario is not dissimilar to “missing an exit” on a “real” highway overseas. These facts would in my mind tend to discourage people from attempting the “late cut”.

    Yes we do agree that it would be nice if the information behind the design process was publicly available in an easy to comprehend format. However in the absence of such information we have these interesting discussions where we have two opposing OPINIONS.

    I think we may have to agree to disagree.

    M.

  34. permres Avatar
    permres

    notesfromthemargin, “sin bins” are painted on the road surface in the UK, so you are expected to see ahead, to see if your exit is clear.

    “Cutting in”. Even with the motorways and wide urban roads in the UK, there are still snarl-ups. However, along with ZR drivers here, and London taxi drivers, they get through anything more quickly than anybody else. Law-breakers, clever/aggressive driving, whatever you want to call it, occurs everywhere.

    I once took a taxi from London to Leicester. When he came to a pile-up on the motorway, he used the hard shoulder. Say no more.

  35. Tell me Why Avatar
    Tell me Why

    And TMW one final point, the people on here who vociferously stick to their guns that flyovers WILL NOT work have not seen any studies to that effect either!
    ……………………………………………………..
    @ notesfromthemargin
    You are wrong my friend. I was the first to see it when it came up for viewing at the SJPP. It was a hurriedly put together document minus many implementation that we are seeing now. No jersey barriers, an underpass that looks like a water drainage, no forward planning for the Wildey area and many infrastructures missing. The impact study was a cut and paste in all the areas where you will have massive pedestrian movement.

  36. Tell me Why Avatar
    Tell me Why

    @ notesfromthemargin
    I can go further. How on earth can you state in an Impact Study that Noise Impact and Environmental inhalation will be more crucial to the East of the highway?

    @ RU4Real
    How can you claim libel with the term “Consultants without experience”. If a consultant gets his first job, wouldn’t he be inexperienced? Remember, we have impersonators. Do tell us the country 3S build a flyover?

    I will await your answer in 2015.

  37. Tell me Why Avatar
    Tell me Why

    @ notesfromthemargin and RU4Real

    A classic example of East to West problem is the area by Top Rock coming from Maxwell. How would you solve the problem with the heavy traffic moving west via St.Lawrence verses vehicles going around the roundabout and going north. Would a flyover solve that problem Mr. Highway scientists?

  38. notesfromthemargin Avatar
    notesfromthemargin

    Tell Me Why…

    You once again prove my point….

    We have two issues here: first, are flyovers a valid option for the solution of the traffic problem in Barbados?

    Second, the specific issues pertaining to the process used in the highway project with 4S/GOB.

    I’m more concerned with the former.

    The fact that you saw, what you report to be a hastily put together EIA has nothing to do with the validity of flyovers/ramps/bridges as an option. It merely provides further fodder for the political discussion on the highway.

    The fact remains that you have NOT seen a study disproving the validity of flyovers.

    On “noise impact and environmental inhalation to the east of the highway” I have no idea why that would be the case, I’d suggest you ask the authors of the study that made the statement. They may have had a good reason for including it (or maybe not, who knows?)

    However it still has nothing to do with the validity of flyovers per se.

    Finally…

    To the best of my knowledge there has never been a flyover discussed for the Top Rock roundabout. Why do you seek to introduce one into the discussion now? Other than as a red herring it serves no purpose but to obscure the discussion.

    I repeat:

    “To me, the use of some form of flyover/ramp/bridge at the roundabouts where the ABC highway cuts ACROSS PREVIOUSLY EXISTING HIGHWAYS is an obvious part of the solution.”

    Marginal

  39. notesfromthemargin Avatar
    notesfromthemargin

    Permres,

    “Law-breakers, clever/aggressive driving, whatever you want to call it, occurs everywhere.”

    Agreed, but it does not cause the entire traffic system to come grinding to a halt does it?

    M.

  40. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @All… Took a break from the blogs. Happy 42nd *INDEPENDENCE*!

    @notesfromthemargin: “Chris, Here are what I see as the flaws in your arguments:

    “Can you see the opposite side of the roundabout when you enter it? also can you also see the traffic in the lane on your left about to enter as well? Bearing in mind that the highway traffic moves faster, people on the crossing roads would never move at all in this rule.

    I can think of no roundabout where you cannot see all the exits (or, for that matter, all the entrances), with the possible exception of the “Chickmont roundabout”.

    And I would argue it would cost far less to remove any obscuring vegetation/signage from the centre of a roundabout than building a ramp over it…

    @nftm: “also can you also see the traffic in the lane on your left about to enter as well?

    Short answer: yes. Longer answer: if those turning -90 degrees to exit use the left exit lane, and those turning 0 or 90 degrees use the right, I don’t see an issue.

    Again, I argue that my idea stands.

    @nftm: “Bearing in mind that the highway traffic moves faster, people on the crossing roads would never move at all in this rule.

    Empirically, this statement is false. Or else, as you say, the crossing roads would never move at all currently. Also, you make a presupposition here: that during rush hour the highway traffic will be moving faster. I argue this is a false assumption.

    @nftm: “My view of it is that flyovers are perhaps one of the simpler and easier to implement options.”

    But also, without question, the most expensive. And proposed (and about to be built) without an appropriate analysis as to the net benefit for (quoting ru4real) “the majority of the population”.

    @nftm: “By your own logic flyovers are not “pulsed” hence there are unlikely to be open spaces to cut in. This simple fact makes successful cutting in a HIGHLY unlikely proposition. However in the highways case the option of stopping is not available as in the case of traffic lights. The “cutter” will be forced to go over the roundabout.

    Please explain and expand upon *this* statement!

    From your immediate above, you are agreeing that the exits will *not* be free, but rather constrained.

    Further, please explain to us what *forces* a driver to go over the flyover? What prevents a driver from slowing down (or even stopping)? How will the highway be any different than some pr1ck in the wrong lane stopped before a green turn light?

    Law enforcement? We now come back how likely that will be, and to what would be required to implement my idea…

    Peer pressure? Doesn’t seem to constrain Z, ZR or many “big ride” drivers (or, to say again, some inconsiderate, selfish, self important pr1ck)…

    Because, frankly, the only laws which one *must* obey when trying to optimize their own situation are the laws of physics. Everything else is a statistical bet.

  41. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @Permres “Law-breakers, clever/aggressive driving, whatever you want to call it, occurs everywhere.

    @notefromthemarkgin: “Agreed, but it does not cause the entire traffic system to come grinding to a halt does it?

    In every case, it slows traffic down…

    And in some cases (particularly here in Barbados), it *can* indeed cause the traffic system to come grinding halt.

    Just a few empirical data points:

    1. Those crossing a roundabout without being able to immediately exit.

    2. Those travelling south down Collymore Rock in the mornings, and know the “short-cut side roads” which let them cut into the traffic ahead of them, bringing the traffic to a true standstill at the top of the hill.

    3. Those travelling west past BL&P in the mornings, and know they can turn right at the oval and then travel south directly towards BL&P, knowing someone will let them in ahead of where they would otherwise be.

    4. Etc, etc, et al…

    Once again, take human nature into consideration when designing any system, or else you’re an expensive and ineffectual fool…

  42. Banqueo Avatar
    Banqueo

    “To me, the use of some form of flyover/ramp/bridge at the roundabouts where the ABC highway cuts ACROSS PREVIOUSLY EXISTING HIGHWAYS is an obvious part of the solution.”

    Any honest engineer will agree with the above statement.The arguments against overpasses have no substance at all .From an engineering standpoint the other amateur suggestions offered here are impracticable and offer no resolutions.
    This is a transparent attempt to detract attention from an unwise government decision by mud slinging and red herrings.

  43. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @Banqueo: “The arguments against overpasses have no substance at all .From an engineering standpoint the other amateur suggestions offered here are impracticable and offer no resolutions.

    (ROTFL…)

    Engineers have this interesting handicap — most of them don’t take into consideration the COSTS for their solutions.

    This is why economists are so important. Where do the economic “curves cross”? What are *all* of the options available? How much is proposed to be spent in relation to the returns for each option? For how many? For how long?

    Taking your above argument to the extreme, the ultimate solution is for *everyone* to have their *own* personal route from everywhere they want to come from to everywhere they want to go.

    Then everyone gets to travel unhindered. Euphoric glory!

    Now, how do you pay for this? Humm…

    Stepping back from the unachievable ultimate solution (and thus accepting it can’t be done), what are the reasonable comprises which must be made?

    As in, *EXACTLY* what are these comprises? *EXACTLY* what is the optimal (if not ultimate) solution space?

    This is the fundamental question.

    And this is the question which has not been answered… (Or, for that matter, even truly asked…)

  44. notesfromthemargin Avatar
    notesfromthemargin

    Chris,

    As I said in this we may have to agree to disagree.

    “As in, *EXACTLY* what are these comprises? *EXACTLY* what is the optimal (if not ultimate) solution space?”

    You are in no better position than I to answer these questions. You have your OPINION, I have my OPINION. Any argument against your position you will rebut with calls for exact data. I can do the same. You start from the position “prove to me that it can work” I start from the opposite end “prove to me it can’t” In the absence of hard data it is all opinions.

    Either way right now it’s a moot point as the PM has stated “There will be no flyovers” I think he may regret having left himself no wriggle room on the issue. I strongly suspect what we will find is that widening the highway will not address the core issue that you have two streams of heavy traffic crossing one another.

    I could equally point out, given your insistence that bad driving will cause flyovers to become dysfunctional also can be applied to your argument about “sin boxes” on the roundabouts. Good luck trying to get that one to work.

    As for the contributions of Tell Me Why, I suspect no matter how well that EIA was prepared he would have found it lacking. His rebuttal to my arguments was nothing more than a series of red herrings. At least Chris I can have an intelligent argument with.

    Chris I think you’ve got this one wrong, I know you disagree. Time will tell.

    Marginal

    BTW I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts on how we improve the traffic flow on the roads going into Bridgetown.

  45. Tell me Why Avatar
    Tell me Why

    To the best of my knowledge there has never been a flyover discussed for the Top Rock roundabout. Why do you seek to introduce one into the discussion now?
    ……………………………………………………….
    I never implied that a flyover will be by the Top Rock Area. I was just pointing out to you that the problem is really vehicles trying to get into the city from all areas. Flyovers will not solve the problems with getting into the city.

    When you and RU4REAL can come up with a sensible reason for these flyovers, maybe, I will take a second look. Otherwise, I see no justifications for your arguments.

  46. Tell me Why Avatar
    Tell me Why

    @ Notesfromthemargin

    Even if we go ahead with you with these flyovers, can you tell us how you will deal with vehicles going into the city? What alternatives will you give to speed up vehicles going to the city from these areas; Worthing, Wildey, Pine East West Road, Government Hill, Belle Road, Station Hill, Warrens and University Hill? These are the problematic areas that you are overlooking and the reason we are saying flyovers will not solve our traffic problems.

  47. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @notesfromthemargin: “As I said in this we may have to agree to disagree

    Agreed. *You* have said this.

    *I’VE* said that anyone who thinks the flyovers will help the “majority* of the population are wrong.

    I *haven’t* agreed to disagree.

    I simply and fundamentally disagree.

    Full Stop.

  48. notesfromthemargin Avatar
    notesfromthemargin

    Tell me why & Chris,

    I’ve already said the the problem of traffic going into the city was more intractable than the highway. I’ve also said repeatedly that flyovers are PART of the solution to the overall traffic problem.

    Chris, Agreeing to disagree means that I accept I’m not going to change your mind. I’m not asking you to agree with me.

    I still think you are wrong.

    I notice that apart from trashing the flyover idea, neither of you are advancing any discussion on possible solutions on the roads into town.

    No flyovers will NOT solve the problem of getting into the city. They will however make a significant impact on the amount of time it takes to get anywhere by using the highway (even if you are going into the city by way of the highway).

    I think that if you are looking for a single solution that will solve all of our traffic problems you are not being realistic. As I’ve said before it’s not a matter of EITHER/OR it is going to be a multi solution problem (flyovers AND dealing with the roads into town)

    Marginal

    By the way I’m still looking forward to your solutions on the roads into town. I’ve always held the view it is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.

    So far all I’m hearing from you is cursing.
    M.

  49. permres Avatar
    permres

    notesfromthemargin, a number of ideas have been mooted to help commuters get into and out of town, all of them a lot cheaper than flyovers, which do not help at all.

    Improved public transport, park n’ ride, one-way feeder roads especially at peak times, restriction on private cars (heavy tolls), bus lanes, sin bins at junctions, synchronised traffic lights, staggered working/school hours. That’s just off the top of my head. They may not all be workable, but at least give them a try.

    BTW, helicopters for those who can afford it, as in London and New York.

  50. notesfromthemargin Avatar
    notesfromthemargin

    I believe the synchronised traffic lights are already in train. But I would support all of these intiatives as well.

    However i still would take issue with saying flyover do not help.

    Not EITHER/OR but AND.

    M.

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