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muslim_mafiaIt is no secret to BU the 911 event which occurred in New York on the 11 September 2001 has added to tensions between the Muslim and Christian worlds. The reported terrorist acts which resulted in the demolition of the Twin Towers, damaged to the Pentagon and tragically resulted in the loss of many lifes has scared world history. The act was tracked to the Al Qaeda network by the US authorities and predictably the fallout has reverberated across the world. During the last US Presidential Election Campaign the foreign policy the candidates would adopt if elected was placed under heavy scrutiny especially concerning the current conflicts in Muslimย  Iraq, Afghanistan and for other reasons Iran. To President Barack Obamaโ€™s credit he fulfilled a campaign promise when he delivered a speech targeting his message at the Muslim world back in May designed to ease tension. He demonstrated courage and imagination by travelling to Egypt to do so.

Eight years later BU is not sure there has been any deflation of tensions even though President Obama has been able to benefit by being awarded a Nobel Peace prize significantly attributed to his efforts at enabling a climate which encourages peace.

It must concern President Obama now that he carries the weight of being a Nobel Laureate; the unravelling revelation in a book just released that the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) has been fingered in a memo obtained through Paul Sperry’s newest book Muslim Mafia: Inside the Secret Underworld that’s Conspiring to Islamize America, CAIR lays out plans to place interns in the Committees on the Judiciary, Intelligence, and Homeland Security for the purpose of influencing policy.

Interesting indeed, so what does the future hold?

A Free Press For A Free People

‘Now we have proof’ jihadis infiltrating D.C.

Congress seizes on explosive new book based on daring undercover CAIR probe

In the wake of the sensational ACORN video sting operation by two young investigators, an even more daring, dangerous and devastating undercover investigation – this one infiltrating the nation’s most aggressive Muslim “civil rights” organization for six months – has resulted in stunning revelations about the supposedly “moderate” group, backed up by 12,000 pages of documents and 300 hours of covert video obtained during the secret op.

As revealed in a new book detailing the operation and its findings, the Washington, D.C.-based Council on American-Islamic Relations, or CAIR, is not the beneficent Muslim civil-rights group it claims to be. Rather, as indisputable evidence now shows, CAIR and other “mainstream” Islamic groups are acting as fronts for a well-funded conspiracy of the Muslim Brotherhood โ€“ the parent of al-Qaida and Hamas โ€“ to infiltrate and destroy the American system.

Until now, CAIR has remained a powerful force in the nation’s capitol and across the country, from demanding the Obama administration stop FBI counter-terrorism tactics to compelling a school district to apologize to Muslims.

That influence, many believe, may be coming to an end, as a result of the stunning undercover investigation — which included the son of a veteran counter-terrorism investigator, who grew a beard and converted to Islam, as well as two veiled female interns.

CAIR Executive Director Nihad Awad shakes hands with intern Chris Gaubatz, aka David Marshall, at CAIR’s national headquarters in Washington, D.C., in 2008

“Muslim Mafia: Inside the Secret Underworld That’s Conspiring to Islamize America,” a WND Books publication by counter-terrorism investigator Dave Gaubatz and “Infiltration” author Paul Sperry, documents CAIR’s ultimate purpose to transform the United States into an Islamic nation under the authority of the Quran.

The book already has prompted action on Capitol Hill.

With evidence from “Muslim Mafia” in hand, U.S. Rep. Sue Myrick, R-N.C., co-founder of the Congressional Anti-Terror Caucus, and other members of Congress โ€“ including Reps. John Shadegg, R-Ariz., and Paul Broun, R-Ga. โ€“ plan to hold a press conference today in Washington calling for an investigation and an end to political lobbying by front groups such as CAIR.

“Now we have proof โ€“ from the secret documents that this investigative team has uncovered, coupled with the ones recently declassified by the FBI โ€“ that [radical Islamists] agents living among us have a plan in place, and they are successfully carrying out that subversive plan,” Myrick writes in the foreword to “Muslim Mafia.”

Noting that CAIR has tried to hide its strategy, finances, membership, internal disputes and much more from public view since its founding in 1994, Islam expert Daniel Pipes lauded “Muslim Mafia” for definitively exposing the “tawdry and often illegal inner workings of radical Islam’s most aggressive organization in North America.”

“The revelations in this book should both put CAIR out of business and permanently discredit the Islamist cause,” Pipes said.

Undercover

The book begins as a real-life, heart-pounding thriller, with Chris Gaubatz, the son of co-author David Gaubatz, preparing to go underground as an intern for CAIR at its Herndon, Va., office.

Astoundingly, the younger Gaubatz, posing as a bearded Muslim convert, ends up with a position at CAIR’s national office in Washington, just three blocks from the U.S. Capitol building, working alongside top leaders Ibrahim Hooper, Nihad Awad and Corey Saylor.

Along with declassified government documents, the book unveils thousands of e-mails, faxes and internal memos that were never meant for public viewing.

Chris Gaubatz and CAIR Communications Director Ibrahim Hooper working the CAIR booth at the 45th annual convention of the Islamic Society of North America in Columbus, Ohio, in 2008

The new evidence shows that CAIR โ€“ already designated an unindicted co-conspirator in the largest terror-financing case in U.S. history โ€“ is part of an organized crime network in America made up of more than 100 other Muslim front groups that collectively comprise the U.S. Muslim Brotherhood.

“Muslim Mafia” also exposes the inner workings of the mob-like Brotherhood and explains its broader conspiracy of infiltrating the American government and “destroying Western civilization from within.”

“The evidence found in the investigation is incontrovertible,” said co-author Sperry, noting that the book has more than 40 pages of footnotes and an appendix with more than 50 pages of exclusive confidential documents.

The Brotherhood is known within Islamist circles as the “Ikhwan mafia” because of its highly organized structure, centralized control and covert operations. CAIR, reveals “Muslim Mafia,” is one part of the network of front groups, cut-outs and shell companies that shield the Brotherhood’s criminal activities from authorities.

“These guys talk about jihad and murdering Jews like the mob talked about killing โ€“ totally casual, like they were ordering pizza,” said one FBI official in Washington quoted in the book.

Some key smoking-gun revelations detailed in “Muslim Mafia” include:

  • New evidence that CAIR was launched to support the Hamas terrorist group, and has transferred tens of thousands of dollars to a group recently convicted as Hamas’ top fundraising arm in the U.S. – money that ended up aiding terrorist attacks on Israelis and Americans;
  • Internal documents showing CAIR, despite claims of cooperating with law enforcement, actively works behind the scenes to mislead and deceive the FBI on behalf of terrorism suspects – and has even cultivated Muslim moles inside law enforcement who have tipped off FBI terror targets;
  • CAIR is more closely tied to al-Qaida than previously reported;
  • CAIR claims to represent all Muslim Americans, however, it has victimized some 100 indigent Muslims in a massive fraud and threatened them when they tried to go to the media; and internally, personnel complaints reveal CAIR discriminates against Shiite Muslims and Muslim women within its own headquarters;
  • CAIR and its sister fronts are funded by foreign Muslim Brotherhood sources;
  • CAIR leaders share the Muslim Brotherhood’s ultimate goal to replace the U.S. Constitution with Shariah law;
  • The Muslim Brotherhood investment in corporate America will be used to pressure U.S. companies into compliance with Islamic principles.

The book also shows radical Muslims in the U.S. are working to support Palestinian terrorists, destroy Israel, gut U.S. anti-terrorism laws, loosen U.S. Muslim immigration policies and convert Americans to Islam.

The authors explain they targeted CAIR because it helps control the “religious crime syndicate from its power base in Washington, the capitol of the same government it wishes to overthrow.”

While the FBI has cut formal ties to CAIR in the wake of its designation as an unindicted co-conspirator in a plot to fund the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas, the group has virtually unfettered access to Capitol Hill and continues to wield influence in the White House.

Certificate signed by Nihad Awad and awarded to Chris Gaubatz for completing his internship

CAIR, the book reveals, regularly reserves meeting rooms and prays Fridays alongside Muslim Rep. Keith Ellison, D-Minn., and a growing number of Muslim staffers.

The first Muslim elected to Congress and a de facto CAIR board member, Ellison predicted in one CAIR power breakfast he soon would be flanked by 15 other Muslim congressmen, “Muslim Mafia” notes.

Chris Gaubatz, in fact, once found himself praying elbow-to-elbow with Ellison during a Friday prayer gathering attended by CAIR inside the U.S. Capitol.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., the book says, is totally in the dark about the threat, and so is the White House.

In fact, reveals “Muslim Mafia,” in the White House President Obama is hiring Muslims โ€“ including an adviser who advocates compliance with Shariah law โ€“ based on resumes solicited from Muslim Brotherhood fronts.

Meanwhile, the FBI is in conflict internally about how to deal with the Brotherhood, with some top officials in favor of maintaining outreach, while counter-terror case agents in the field strongly object, pointing to evidence the network is a factory for homegrown terror and is secretly carrying out activities hostile to the U.S.

“They’ve achieved outrageous penetration at senior levels of our government,” veteran FBI special agent John Guandolo warns in the book.

Until recently, the FBI engaged in outreach activities with CAIR, including forcing rookie agents to take cultural field trips to area mosques.

The “Muslim Mafia” authors obtained notes revealing the FBI even has offered to sponsor Muslim youth camps with the Boys Clubs of America.

A shortage of Arab linguists and dozens of discrimination suits by Arab and Muslim employees has prompted the FBI to recruit from Brotherhood-related groups, such as the Islamic Society of North America

A Muslim agent who drew national attention when he refused to tape-record a fellow Muslim during a terrorism investigation was promoted and now recruits other Muslims to become agents and linguists.

‘Hit sheets’

The book also presents evidence CAIR has prepared “hit sheets” on its critics in the news media in an effort to intimidate them into silence.

Internal memos show, for example, top officials privately met with CNN executives in Atlanta to press them to cancel Glenn Beck’s program on its Headline News network. Beck now has a highly rated afternoon show on the Fox News Channel.

CAIR’s campaign to boycott leading nationally syndicated radio talk-show host Michael Savage’s advertisers cost more than $160,000, the book reveals. The authors recount how CAIR ran out of money before it could crack Savage’s most loyal sponsors.

The book also includes new revelations about CAIR’s role in the “flying imams” case in 2006 in which six Muslim leaders were removed from an airline flight in Minneapolis after passengers and crew members reported what they believed to be suspicious behavior.

“Muslim Mafia” also exposes CAIR’s secret agenda to criminalize anti-terror profiling by police and private entities.

Gaubatz is a veteran federal investigator and counter-terrorism specialist who served for more than a decade as a special agent in the U.S. Air Force’s elite Office of Special Investigations. He held the U.S. government’s highest security clearances, including Top Secret/SCI (Sensitive Compartmented Information), and was briefed in many so-called black projects.

Gaubatz also is a State Department-trained Arabic linguist with more than two decades of experience in the Middle East, including tours in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan and Iraq. In 2003, he led a 15-man team to rescue the family members of the Iraqi lawyer credited with saving Army Private First Class Jessica Lynch.

Sperry, a media fellow at Stanford University’s Hoover Institution, is former Washington bureau chief for Investor’s Business Daily and former Washington bureau chief of WorldNetDaily.com.

His bestseller “Infiltration: How Muslim Spies and Subversives Have Penetrated Washington,” is being used by the U.S. military and top law enforcement departments nationwide. Many of the numerous stories he has broken on national security and counter-terrorism have been cited by the Washington Post, USA Today, UPI and the Associated Press, among others. His columns have appeared in publications such as the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, New York Post, Houston Chronicle, American Spectator and Reason.

One FBI official quoted in “Muslim Mafia” says CAIR and the other Muslim Brotherhood front groups differ from al-Qaida in that, while all share the same goals, they use different methods to achieve them.

“The only difference between the guys in the suits and the guys with the AK-47s is timing and tactics,” the official explained.


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603 responses to “Muslim Mafia In America: What Does The Future Bode?”


  1. A bit more factual info on Castro’s tyrannical, despotic reign on the Cuban people.

    The reign of terror against American POWs in Vietnam was just a reflection of Castro’s treatment on his own people. In addition to physical hardships even those who do not wind up in prison or labor camp, his police state had denied Cubans any freedom at all. Cubans do NOT have the right to travel out of their country. They do NOT have the right of free asociation or the right to form political parties, independent unions, or religious or cultural organizations. The regime has outlawed free expression, it has consistently censored publications, radio, televison, and film. A Commitee for the Defense of the Cuban Revolution (CDR) governs every single city block, and every agricultural production unit. The CDRs purpose is to monitor the affairs of every family and to report anything suspicious. A Cuban’s entire life IS spent under surveillance of his CDR, which controls everything from his food rations to his employment to his use of free time. A vicious racism against blacks accompanies this repression. In pre-Castro Cuba, blacks enjoyed upward social mobility, and served in many government positions. In Castro’s Cuba, the jail population, IS 80% black, while the government heirarchy is 100 percent white/Latino.

    Cuban communism follows Lenin’s and Stalin’s idea of “equality” wherein members of the *nomenklatura* live like millionaires, while ordinary Cubans live in utter proverty.

    The $5-billion-a-year Soviet subsidy that just barely kept the Cuban economy afloat during the Cold War is long gone. And, notwithstanding the $100 billion that the Soviets pumped in over the decades, Cuba has become one of the poorest nations in the world.

    Denied the right to vote under Castro, Cubans have voted with their feet. Pre-Castro Cuba had the highest per capita immigration rate in the Western hemisphere. Under Castro, approximately 2,000,000 Cuban citizens (out of eleven million) have escaped their country. Many have done so by floating on rafts or inner tubes in shark-infested waters. An estimated 50,000 – 87,000 have lost their lives. Not content to trust the sharkes, Castro has sent helicopters to drop sandbags onto the rafts of would-be-escapers, or just to gun them all down. Epitomizing this barbarity was the Tugboat Massacre of July 13, 1994, in which Castro ordered Cuban patrol boats to kill 41 unarmed Cuban civilians, 10 of them children, who were using an old wooden tugboat in their attempt to flee Cuba.

    Castro is a vile, wicked, evil, tyrant, the documented facts of his barbarity on his own people, especially if any sould attempt to dissent from his despotic rule, are all well documented facts.


  2. LOL MME, ..the men like them got yuh by the ‘short and curley’… ha ha

    I have no doubt that you will come to the realization that you have erred on this particular matter…. Admittedly, it is a fairly complex matter.

    Here is Bush Tea’s take on the issue.

    The natural order of things is survival of the fittest (usually the ‘baddest’ or the smartest). You have to admit that even where a clearly innocent child breaks one of the natural laws, (step off a cliff, run into traffic, jump into a pool….etc) the consequences are harsh, constant and unyielding.

    Before the coming of the ‘Saviour’, judgment was based on these natural laws -like an eye for an eye etc and it was clearly demonstrated that mankind did not have what it takes to achieve the intended objectives along this natural path.

    The new dispensation of ‘salvation through grace’ never claimed to remove the natural laws, but instead provides an alternative route which is ‘do-able’ – through this new ‘way’ that has been provided.

    Obviously, in promoting this new ‘way’ (one that defies the natural order of things), there is much emphasis on the fact that it is not by works, physical efforts and defeating challengers that one now needs to seek a successful life. At the same time, not one iota of the law has been changed.

    Indeed, if we really wanted to get controversial, it may be argued that far from avoiding all violence, the concept of righteous indignation and the pursuit of justice by a truly righteous man could very well include the application of violence – even deadly violence- where circumstances dictates such…

    A perfect example of course is my former Headmaster who on more than one occasion brutalized my behind in a manner that you seem to think should be criminal. However it is now clear that this man genuinely cared about my future and in his wisdom, took decisive and took practical action to protect my future success… despite my own ignorance of his strategic perspective at the time.

    Face it MME, violence and Force are fundamental realities in the structure of our world. pretending otherwise is – quite frankly, beneath you.

    The wise thing to do therefore is to adopt and manage this basic force in the interest of the longterm goodwill of all society.
    The foolish way is to ignore it and allow the dark forces to then use it to challenge and destroy our way of life.

    To cut a long story short, there will always be gangs and violent persons…. We should ensure that the biggest and baddest ‘gang’ is our police force.

    Children will always have the potential to be troublesome and mischievous… Parents should be ‘badder’ in enforcing that which is right.

  3. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Dictionary & Zoe,

    I asked you both some simple and direct questions, but rather than answer these you have run off on another tirade. Were you unable to find answers, or just uncomfortable with them? ROTFL.
    ———–

    Anonymous, yes I am saying that Paul benefited from an unchristian response, just as Peter benefitted from an unchristian response when he denied Christ. You have made some good points, but something you said confuses me… surely you realise that the scriptures that Dictionary and Zoe have referred to so far (Romans, Acts etc.) are not Gospel, don’t you?


  4. MME

    So the letters of Paul (Acts, Romans etc) do not provide Divinely inspired instruction for believers? Only the four Gospels are the true canons of Christian faith? Say it ain’t so!

    With no intention to be facetious: What part of the Bible is negotiable and what part isn’t?


  5. 2 Analysis
    2.1 “Our Father, which art in Heaven”
    2.2 “Hallowed be thy Name”
    2.3 “Thy kingdom come”
    2.4 “Thy will be done, in earth as it is in heaven”
    2.5 “Give us this day our daily bread”
    2.6 “And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us”
    2.7 “And lead us not into temptation”
    2.8 “But deliver us from evil”
    2.9 “For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen”


  6. @MME, You are beginning to sound just like Catholics and Anglicans, “…surely you realize that the Scriptures that Dictionary and Zoe have referred to so far (Romans, Acts etc.) are not Gospel, don’t you?”

    MME, Is the book of Acts, the Letters, Epistles, any lest Divinely Inspired Scripture, than the synoptic Gospels?

    Further, who did Almighty God, through the Holy Spirit, divinely inspire, to pen the most profound theological discourses ever written; especially on Law vs Grace, Justification by Grace through Faith alone in Christ Jesus; the God *ordained* and instituted, Civil authorties, (government) (Rom 13) and a number of other doctrinal, moral, and other matters, pertaining to the Church, and Civil order?

    Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, did NOT elaberate on the finer, intricate details of Salvation, i.e., Justification, Sanctification, Glorification, Law vs Grace, etc., He left these deeper and profound matters to be dealt with *after* His ascension, when He said:

    “I have yet *many* things to say unto you, BUT ye cannot bear them now”

    Howbeit, *when* he, the Spirit of *truth* (The Holy Spirit) is come, he will guide you into *All* truth…” (John 16: 12, 13a).

    One of the biggest mistakes the Catholics, and by extension the Anglicans made, WAS exactly what you are apparently doing; to belittle the Letters and Espitles, YES, the Gospels are significant, they give us the Life, Ministry, Crucifixion, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus Christ, BUT, without the Letters and Epistles, which the Holy Spirit, ALSO, divinely inspired, we would NOT have the central *core* of New Testament *Doctrine* for that IS how the Lord so ordered it to be!

    I can honestly understand why you ‘may’ be having this problem, as is now coming out! If you, like most other Bajans, were raised under the traditional churches, Anglican, Methodist, and Catholic, then, you would, naturally have this *bias* against Paul’s writings, considering them to be somewhat, lesser in authority, than the Gospels, this IS not so, as there IS no contradiction whatsoever, between what Jesus taught, through in some cases, not very explicit, as He intended the *fuller* clarification, articulation, etc, to be dealt with, when *He* the Holy Spirit is come, and THIS did in fact happen, in the Letters and Epistles, especially from Paul.


  7. MME:

    Our “scientific” culture — both in the region and the broader Western Civilisation — has intellectual blind spots, and one of these is that we do not understand the way actions by agents in a situation can tell us much about underlying dynamics etc. As a result, we often tend to deprecate the study of history and of character and fail to appreciate the subtleties of good literature.

    Luke, author of Acts, is operating in a different matrix: he was a Greek physician, steeped in a culture whose principal teaching tool on life was the epic poems of Homer, and which had a centuries deep tradition of history and biography as instructional tools; with Herodotus and Thucydides as key progenitors.

    Acts is in that cultural context,and is addressed to a cultured Greek as part 2 of a grounding study on the history of God’s intervention into the world in Christ and the church. In that context, he begins each volume with a classic thesis statement, the first an introductory, the second a continuation:
    _____________

    >>LK: 1:1 Now1 many have undertaken to compile an account2 of the things3 that have been fulfilled4 among us, 1:2 like the accounts5 passed on6 to us by those who were eyewitnesses and servants of the word7 from the beginning.8 1:3 So9 it seemed good to me as well,10 because I have followed11 all things carefully from the beginning, to write an orderly account12 for you, most excellent Theophilus, 1:4 so that you may know for certain13 the things you were taught . . . .

    AC: 1:1 I wrote1 the former2 account,3 Theophilus,4 about all that Jesus began to do and teach 1:2 until the day he was taken up to heaven,5 after he had given orders6 by7 the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 1:3 To the same apostles8 also, after his suffering,9 he presented himself alive with many convincing proofs. He was seen by them over a forty-day period10 and spoke about matters concerning the kingdom of God . . . . 1:6 So when they had gathered together, they began to ask him,20 โ€œLord, is this the time when you are restoring the kingdom to Israel?โ€ 1:7 He told them, โ€œYou are not permitted to know21 the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority. 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the farthest parts22 of the earth.โ€ 1:9 After23 he had said this, while they were watching, he was lifted up and a cloud hid him from their sight. 1:10 As24 they were still staring into the sky while he was going, suddenly25 two men in white clothing stood near them 1:11 and said, โ€œMen of Galilee, why do you stand here26 looking up into the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven27 will come back in the same way you saw him go into heaven.โ€
    >>

    _____________

    Here we see a focus on the life of teh Christ, to provide an orderly, well-warranted ground for the specifically theological claims that had been taught. Thereafter, the focus shifts to the dynamics of how this gospel would go out in the Spirit’s power, carried especially by anointed men, chief among whom would be the apostles.

    THIS MEANS THAT LUKE IS TEACHING BY HISTORICAL EXEMPLAR AND KEY CASE STUDY, quite similar in many ways to the use of classical cases to teach or diagnose in medicine. he will also hint at more than he says explicitly, assuming that an educated reader will understand that he is laying out exemplars of the course of the disease of sin in the world and the ways the Divine Doctor’s interventions work on the ground; i.e though the Christ and his chosen vessels sent out and anointed by his Spirit.

    In this context, it is not at all a surprise to pick up key patterns based on consistent themes, and it is expected that once a protagonist-hero has been identified, his example is as authoritative (save where specific corrections are listed or hinted at) as his speech. So:

    1 –> Consistently in Lk-Ac [and the other gospels] the crowd is ignorant and prone to being manipulated by the deceitful, leading to mob behaviour. Of this the crowd in the temple in Ac 21 that pulled Paul out and called down more people to beat him to death on slanders and assumed crimes not tested properly in an orderly court is a TYPICAL pattern.

    2 –> So are the manipulations of courts and other levers of power by deceptive elites. In Ac 22 – 23, this developed into attempted murder under the cover of a court hearing, though a collaboration between the elites and the mob.

    3 –> All of this is a strong commentary on the destructive possibilities of democratic polities; something that is often most unwelcome in our ears in our time — but which we had better heed before it is too late. [NB: This culminates in the case in Ac 27, where the ship at Fair Havens is actually a good model in miniature of the ship of state! (I have actually used this to teach key management and decision making principles and political principles of prophetic intellectual and cultural leadership in a potentially hostile culture.)]

    4 –> It is no great surprise to learn that in the Ac, the main protagonists are Peter in the first half, and Paul in the second; the leading apostle to the Jews and the leading apostle to the gentiles. In this context, the Jerusalem council of AD 48, in Ac 15, with the letter of charter to the gentile churches and commendation of their foundational apostolic leadership and their teachings, is pivotal. Jesus set out the apostles and the first circle of apostles subsequently recognised the apostolic commission — recall here Ac 9 – 10 — of those sent to the gentiles, especially Paul.

    5 –> In this context the exchanges between Peter and Paul over the former’s withdrawal from fellowship with gentile Christians, is key [Cf Ac 15 and Gal 2:11 ff]. Apostles — unlike the Saviour — are mere men and can err (notice the contrast with the Islamist view that seems to have made M into a perfect model without room for balance and correction of fallible imperfect men or addressing of context . . . ); but the Spirit-led college is right and the Spirit will correct an error through other voices. So too, apostles sent by Christ are authoritative, save where such a specific error is highlighted for correction through the leading of the chief protagonist in the Acts, the Spirit who fills the church and leads it into action in life- and culture- transforming witness to he Lord’s crucified and risen Christ.

    (Note the “minor” case in Ac 23:1 – 5 where Paul for a moment loses his temper in reaction to sore provocation — being slapped as he opens his defence statement, by order of as it turns out the High Priest himself. Paul rebukes, is accused of lese majeste, and corrects himself on a key OT scripture, apologising that he did not realise it was the High Priest. Of course, the point that he was struck contrary to the very law they were judigning him under was also made. [Recall here the pummelling of Jesus in his trial. The implicit contrast is corrective, but the subtle hint is that in any case abusive authorities are not fit judges and will act unjustly. Within days, the same judges would try to use a further hearing as an opportunity for assassination. Which sets up the tribune’s action to send Paul to Caesarea under escort of 400 armed foot and 70 armed horse; i.e. the doctrine of interposition by a civil authority in defence of justice in the teeth of corrupt authority is illustrated. And — sadly, given Rom 2:14 ff — the PAGAN does rather better than the High Priest of God. this shows how “they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.” of course, this is to say that he core Biblical morality reflects the character of our Creator and are stamped in our hearts and minds so that they are evident to the thoughtful and disinterested eye. In other words, unless “fe we corns bein’ mashed,” we know and can reason pretty well enough what is fair and just.])

    6 –> This is the context for Paul’s remark to the Corinthians who were prone to challenge his authority:

    >> 1 Cor 14:37 If anyone considers himself a prophet or spiritual person, he should acknowledge that what I write to you is the Lordโ€™s command. 14:38 If someone does not recognize this, he is not recognized . . . >>

    7 –> To this, Peter adds a proviso of caution to the unlearned:

    >> 2 Pet 3:15 And regard the patience of our Lord as salvation,51 just as also our dear brother Paul52 wrote to you,53 according to the wisdom given to him, 3:16 speaking of these things in all his letters.54 Some things in these letters55 are hard to understand, things56 the ignorant and unstable twist57 to their own destruction, as they also do to the rest of the scriptures.58 3:17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned,59 be on your guard that you do not get led astray by the error of these unprincipled men60 and fall from your firm grasp on the truth.61 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge62 of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the honor both now and on63 that eternal day. >>

    8 –> By these, we may easily enough test the quality of the spirituality of those who hold forth on matters theological.

    9 –> For, if they are unwilling to accept Paul (or other apostles, by reasonable extension), and if they mishandle the scriptures by failing to read them objectively and fairly in an informed manner, they disqualify themselves as teachers or preachers.

    10 –> Coming back to the matter under current focus, we have rather explicit teachings by Paul in Rom 13:1 – 10, an historical outworking within months of composition of that letter, and a general biblical context tracing back to Moses with many shining exemplars such as Daniel and Nehemiah and David along the way.

    11 –> So, the issue is actually quite simple: whose report will we believe, why. To which, the proper answer is that God has commissioned the apostles and has led them through situations and cases that made them and their close associates record examples and explicit teachings that guide the church through the days of our age until that Day that is soon to dawn.

    12 –> As for me and my house, we will believe the report of the Lord. For:
    ____________

    >>2 Tim 3:12 Now in fact all who want to live godly lives in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 3:13 But evil people and charlatans will go from bad to worse,18 deceiving others and being deceived themselves.19 3:14 You, however, must continue20 in the things you have learned and are confident about. You know21 who taught you22 3:15 and how from infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to give you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 3:16 Every scripture23 is inspired by God24 and useful for teaching, for reproof,25 for correction, and for training in righteousness, 3:17 that the person dedicated to God26 may be capable27 and equipped for every good work. >>
    ____________

    And, that includes the work of living in civil society, and supporting the civil peace of justice that enables the gospel to have free course.

    Good day

    De Dictionary


  8. PS: Maybe I need to make it explicit: Paul’s epistles are as much scripture as “the other scriptures” and so if someone is unwilling to heed them or otherwise wrenches them away from an informed and contextually well grounded reading, he disqualifies himself as a teacher of the Gospel. (In this context, let us not forget: Paul’s epistles are the FIRST of the NT scriptures — and in that record the key creedal statement of the gospel in 1 Cor 15:1 – 11 that credibly dates to AD 35 – 38 — and indeed if one looks at Peter’s theology from his epistles, one will find that hey are very close indeed to Paul. Paul, inter alia was the church’s first and greatest systematising theologian; and was recogniseed as such by the very first Church Council, which was led by the circle of the 12 and the wider cluster of elders who would by and larger have known Jesus and his life and teaching personally. That is why the apostate have always hated or distorted his works. BTW, Luke was the first church historian, and Jesus is the Church’s Lord and master teacher, whose instructions emphasised what is even more important than systematics in many ways: moral transformation through liberation from the demonic [and I do not mean that figuratively, there is a personally active occult principle of bondage, chaos and deception in our world . . . the basic motivation of say a false political messiah such as a Hitler (who had a clear fascination with the occult, and would fall to the ground, foaming at he mouth and chewing the carpet in his extreme rages, while exerting an uncanny personal magnetism and persuasiveness . . . )], spiritual rebirth and growth, leading to the shining of a light in a dark world.


  9. PPS: Note as well the fulfillment of prophecy focus in Luke etc. which adds a new dimension to the historical focus of Greek thought. There is Someone who controls the future and so can predict it accurately. One who loves us and has acted into history to save us from our sins and the chaos that results form bondage to sin and error.

    This is based on the OT challenge we may read in Isaiah, exposing the futility of dumb — save when the priests rig a mechanism and speaking tube — and powerless idols:
    _____________

    >> ISA 41:21 “Present your case,” says the LORD.
    “Set forth your arguments,” says Jacob’s King.

    ISA 41:22 “Bring in your idols to tell us
    what is going to happen.
    Tell us what the former things were,
    so that we may consider them
    and know their final outcome.
    Or declare to us the things to come,

    ISA 41:23 tell us what the future holds,
    so we may know that you are gods.
    Do something, whether good or bad,
    so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear.

    ISA 41:24 But you are less than nothing
    and your works are utterly worthless;
    he who chooses you is detestable . . . >>
    __________

    And of course, this is fulfilled in grand measure as we compare 1 Cor 15:1 – 11 with Isaiah 53:

    _______________

    >> ISA 53:1 Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

    He was despised and rejected by men,
    a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
    Like one from whom men hide their faces
    he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    ISA 53:4 Surely he took up our infirmities
    and carried our sorrows,
    yet we considered him stricken by God,
    smitten by him, and afflicted.

    ISA 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
    the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.

    ISA 53:6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to his own way;
    and the LORD has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.

    ISA 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    And who can speak of his descendants?
    For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

    ISA 53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
    though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.

    ISA 53:10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,

    he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

    ISA 53:11 After the suffering of his soul,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
    by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.

    ISA 53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
    because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
    For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors. >>

    Compare this to 1 Cor 15, recording teachings dating to the mid 30’s, c. 55 AD:

    >> 1 Cor 15: 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born . . . . 11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed. >>
    ________________

    So much is this the case, that various attempts have been made to deflect its force. they fail, spectacularly. (Cf this, also.)


  10. PPPS: A suggestion, for those seeking to build up a Bible study base; though of course nothing substitutes for a serious study programme in the relevant fields.. Go to the eSword site, and download eSword and a good cluster of resources. [I have got myself something like 1 & 1/2 gigs worth without half trying, so make sure you have the HD space.] In particular, get the Matthew Henry complete commentary, and while you are at it look up serious subsidiary sites that provide eSword resources [try D Cox for starters; NB you may need to manually load files into target folders so make sure you know what to do for those cases], and get them, e.g. Barnes Notes, Darby, Clarke, JFB etc, and the classic Bible dictionaries and encyclopedias, like ISBE 1915. Also get some original language resources — I love my original language versions with hotlink to Strongs numbers Gk and Heb MSS. Read the remarks in the classic MH commentary for Acts 21 – 23. “Muy interesante.” In fact, mind-blowing. (Or, start here at CCEL.)

  11. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    โ€œ@MME, You are beginning to sound just like Catholics and Anglicansโ€

    ROTFLโ€ฆ no Zoe, I am beginning to sound like virtually all Christians did before they sold their soul for secular power (circa 313 A.Dโ€ฆ. lookup the Edict of Milan). I am beginning to sound like Tertullian, Origen, Lactantius, Clement of Alexandria, Taitan, Justin Martyr, Hippolytus of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus, Arnobius, Cyprian of Carthage, Athenagoras of Athens… and the list goes on. It โ€˜mayโ€™ do you and Dictionary a world of good to conduct some research on each of these individuals. When youโ€™re done, I also highly recommend the works and biographies of more recent Christians like Leo Tolstoy and Martin Luther King Jr.
    ———————————–

    @Anonymous, man you trying to get me in trouble or wha? Why you asking me dem tough questions? The parts of the Bible that are negotiable, are those parts which are subject to interpretationโ€ฆ for what is interpretation but a negotiation of meaning ๐Ÿ™‚

    You also asked about items in the Bible being subject to review in the light of new information like scienceโ€ฆ I happen to agree. St. Augustine does a good job of elaborating on this in his work โ€œThe Literal Interpretation of Genesisโ€โ€ฆ well worth a Google or Wikipedia search.
    ————————————-

    @Bush Teaโ€ฆ man it tek you long enough to jump in, but I had a feeling those animal analogies would have dragged you out. LOL.

    But BTโ€ฆ I agree entirely that โ€œviolence and force are fundamental realities in the structure of our worldโ€. I also agree that we should โ€œmanage this basic force in the interest of the long-term goodwill of all societyโ€โ€ฆ where we part ways is when you suggest that our method of managing it should be to โ€œadoptโ€ it ourselves in retaliation.

    Evil and suffering may make us stronger, and are necessary ingredients in this โ€œvale of Soul-makingโ€โ€ฆ however this should not be seen as justification or encouragement for ourselves perpetrating evil and suffering on others.


  12. ….besides MME,
    you should know better than to argue with someone name Dictionary – and sounding like GP’s big brother…. LOL


  13. MME:

    I a well aware of the Fathers.

    So was Luther 9far moreso than you or I), and you may observe his response to the attempt to impose the then official reading based on said fathers, councils and the pope.

    The key issue is: back to the root sources, and a serious grappling with their import.

    That is what you consistently refuse to do, and the reason is fairly obvious, from above: the sources devastate your claims.

    Yes, Christians should be peaceful people, and the death by force of anyone is a horrible thing, so much so that it should rest heavily on the Christian heart and mind.

    But equally, we live in a world where there are wolves, some of them running raw and naked, some hiding under sheep’s clothing, some even under shepherds’ clothing. In such a world, the apostle to the nations is clear, e.g. Rom 13:4b: God has ordained the civil authority as his sword-bearer, accountable to him for the defence of the civil peace of justice.

    That starts with the rookie cop on beat patrol, and it goes all the way up to heads of state.

    And, as we look in the whole counsel of scripture, we find men of god as civl authorities, all the way up to heads of state and chief ministers of heads of state.

    So, this brings the matter back full circle to the pattern of the teachings of the scriptures, with footnotes for our civilisation; as previously sumarised:

    _____________

    . . . we should not be waspish, we should go the extra mile, we should respect legitimate authority from the teacher to the Queen, the civil officer has a duty to protect the civil peace, when a leader goes wrong, other leaders are duty bound to act in defence of justice, and that if a leader cannot be corrected he should be removed by responsible authorities and the people, with the general election being a specific mechanism for doing so peacefully. And, that in this context the force of words, the force of boycott, the force of the court of law, or the force of the sword are all instruments of force that must be judged on principles of justice and defence of the civil peace.
    _______________

    And, MME, if the head of state is not empowered to hold the sword in defence of the civil peace, neither is the policeman. (And do you hold that Christians should not be policemen? On what grounds?)

    Think about where that points, MME.

    D


  14. PS: MME, justice, including the sword of justice, is not an imposition of evil. Evil, being a perversion of what exists to ends that do not conform to the moral character of our Creator; a character which among other things is just. And just because sometimes we do fail does not excuse us from the duty of virtue, including justice through the defence of the civil peace.

  15. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    @Dictionary…. so now you relying on Luther to refute the teachings and example set by the ‘Fathers’… LOL

    Luther had his strong points and his weak points… as I am sure you are well aware. Do you share his views on books like James, Jude and Revelation ๐Ÿ™‚
    ————————-

    @BT… man I know you like to see MME hold blows… LOL… here is another appropriate response in the circumstances…

    “It seems to me that God has put us on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe. To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. Yet when we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; when we are slandered, we answer kindly.” -1 Corinthians 4:9-13


  16. Zoe,

    Catholics not only regard the complete bible as guidance for believers but church history and tradition (e.g veneration of Mary etc).

    Zoe, Dictionary, MME

    at least one of you is wrong! In the light of MME’s comment re “beginning to sound like virtually all Christians did before they sold their soul for secular power”, the stakes are high. (btw MME I am not suggesting that you are right).

    Not Saved, don’t you find this all amusing?

  17. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Look…. I can understand why it is hard to accept Christ’s advice when the lure of secular power is so appealing… I even understand why others might conclude it is illogical advice… in fact, those who don’t believe in souls or something greater than our physical existence, are acting quite rationally when they reject the doctrine of nonviolent resistance. However it would be hypocritical of Christians who have examined the history, origin and behavior of the first practitioners of their religion, to condone violent resistance.


  18. MME

    my final (?) comment on this matter,

    I do not challenge your sincerity in aligning your beliefs with those of the first practitioners but find it disturbing that in the light of your comment re selling their souls, that so many, for so long got it so wrong with so much pain and suffering for so many others. And this I am asked to believe is divinely inspired?


  19. Thing is MME, that essentially you are correct.
    The issue here is your carte blank position that the use of power is exclusively secular. It isn’t!

    If you understand that the whole purpose and focus of life on earth is the development of righteous character, then it should be clear that there is a relatively advanced state of personal development where the RIGHTEOUS use of force becomes an issue.

    Put another way, if our aim is to learn to be ‘like’ God, then at some stage there is the need and indeed -requirement, to learn to exercise the correct use of force.

    Few can rationalize the fact that God created the devil (and other evils) in this world and that God exercises absolute force on an ongoing basis.
    But that is the reality.

    The use of force to achieve secular ends is one thing. The righteous use of force by authorities in pursuit of Godly ends is exactly on the opposite end of the scale my friend….


  20. @MME, “…No Zoe, I am beginning to sound like virtually *all* Christians before *they* sold their soul for secular power (Circa 313 A.D).”

    How many volumes of competent, well recognized Church history do you have?

    Don’t try teaching me about church history, and the fathers, I have access to ALL of it right here in my personal library!

    Further, your virtual carte blanche sweep of ‘…virtually *all* Christians…” Is grossly inaccurate , as prior to the beginning of Roman Catholicism, the official state/church union with Constantine and his edict of toleration in 313 A.D, Christianity had already without a stroke of sword or intrigue, achieved over false religion the internal victory of spirit over matter, truth over falsehood, of faith over superstition, of worship of the One True Living God, over idolatry, of morality over corruption.

    Under three hundred years of oppression, it had preserved its irrepressible moral vigor, and abundantly earned its new social position.

    BUT, MME, here is where you are so wrong in saying *all* Christians yielded to the secular powers, for it is vital to always remember, that God never leaves Himself without a true witness(s) to the True Gospel of Christ; and even through the hybrid state/church of the Empire produced Roman Catholicism, there HAS ALWAYS being a remnant of true believers, that still remained faithful to Jesus Christ, and, therefore, the dissenting sects, who derived NO benefit from this state/church union, BUT, were rather subject to persecution from the state and from established Roman Catholicism.

    In this regard, Turtullian had even held that the Christian profession to be irreconciliable with the office of a Roman Emperor.


  21. @MME, Back to Romans 13, verses 1-7.

    The Secular Life of The Christians.

    The believer is to recognize:

    1. The Responsibilities of A Nation’s
    Leaders (13: 1-6)
    A. Their Godward Responsibilities
    (13: 1-2)
    1. Governments Are Appointed by God
    (13:1)
    2. Governments Are Approved by God
    (13:2)
    B. They are Governmental
    Responsibilities ( 13: 3-6)
    1, They Are Responsible for National
    Security (13: 3-5)
    a. To Protect the Community
    (13: 3-4a)
    (1) By Resisting Outlawed Members
    of the Community (13:3a)
    (2) By Recognizing Outstanding
    Members of the Community
    (13:3b-4a)
    b. To Punish the Criminal (13: 4b-5)

    II. The Rights Of A Nation’s Leaders
    (13:7)

    A. Their Right to Our Monetary
    Support
    1. To Our Tribute
    2. To Our Custom
    B. Their Right to Our Moral
    Support
    1. Fear – Rendered to Bad Rulers
    2. Honor – Rendered to Good
    Rulers.

    The Godward Responsibility of Rulers (13: 1-2).

    Human government derives its authority from God. Paul shows that governments are (1) appointed by God. He says, “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers, For there IS NO POWER but of God; the POWERS that be are ORDAINED of God” (v.1). Human government WAS inaugurated by God afther the flood, when He placed into Noah’s hand, the *sword* of the magistrate. “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man (civil authority) shall his blood be shed (Gen. 9:6) were the words which launched man on the road to self-government under God. The highest function of government IS the judicial taking of life, the one thing emphasized in the divine decree. All other functions of government are implied in that.

    Like everything else entrusted to man, human government has failed terribly, in many instances, over and over again. The sword of the magistrate became the sword of the conqueror.The right to legislate and govern man proved to be a heady wine for a fallen, sinful race. The story of the tower of Babel shows how man used his new-found authority to plan organized rebellion against the very throne of God itself. Up until this time rebellion had been on an individual basis, BUT, now, it had become federated. The world’s first “united nations” with headquarters at Babylon symbolizes the last one. Genesis 11 and 12 foreshadow Revelation 13, 17-18.

    Despite the abuses of government power, human government IS still a divine institution. “The powers that be ARE ordained of God.” The word “powers” here means “delegated authorities” and the word “ordained” means “appointed.”

    Evil men may be elected to power, or may seize power. They may have no thought of God at all, but the very fact that He permits them to seize the reigns of government, means that He has a purpose to fulfill even through their misrule. It is a saying well worth considering, that ‘people get the kind of government they deserve.’ Governments may be weak or strong, just or oppressive, benevolent or cruel, wise or foolish, BUT, in each case God has His way and moves His own soveriegn plans forward. God balances one nation off against another. He uses one nation to chastise another. Nations come and go, kingdoms rise and fall, empires wax and wane, BUT, behind them all, IS Almighty God, overruling in the affairs of men. Wars and rumors of war, famines and pestilences, depressions and disasters, all are woven into the fabric of history. From our viewpoint, the stands may seem tangled, meaningless, hopelessly knotted, unequal and wrong. BUT, the tapestry He is weaving, IS perfect, and all the pressures of Satanic force, and human sin are gloriously overruled by a God, who IS both Omnipotent, and Omniscient. What James Russel Lowell said of individuals is just as true of nations:

    “Careless seems the great Avenger; history’s pages but record
    One death-grapple in the darkness ‘twixt old systems and the Word
    Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne-
    Yet that scaffold sways the future and, behind the dim unknown,
    Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above His own.”

    Nebuchadnezzar, mighty king of Babylon, had to learn the hard way, that, “the heavens do rule” (Dan. 4:26) After his terrible experience, this soveriegn truth was brought before him, in which he asserted:

    “I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured Him, that liveth for ever, whose *dominion* IS an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom IS from generation to generation, and ALL the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and NONE can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest thou?” (dan. 4:34-35).

    The whole of Bible history is intended to reinforce the truth, that;

    “The powers that be ARE ordained of God”


  22. Now, back to the *Leftist* as there are a number of them right here in Bimshire, and some expressing their twisted perception of reality on BU.

    In Love with Hanoi’s Butchers.

    In the mid-1960s, while the Stalin-like experiment was fillings Leftists’ hearts with warmth, hope, and inspiration, the Vietnam War began significantly escalating. This, naturally, gave Leftists a new object of worship; a rutheless dictatorship that was at war with the United States, and killling American soldiers. For the Left, this was a god-send, just as *Islamist* terrorism against Americans would be a generation later.

    Just like Stalin’s Soviet Union and Castro’s Cuba, Communist North Vietnam perpertrated a Red Terror on a mass scale. Purges eliminated ALL opposition. Trotskyites, for example were decimated and their leader was put to death. Some 50,000 executions occurred in the countryside alone. As Jean-Louis Margolin, the authority on the North Vietnamese gulag, has noted:

    “Between 50,000 and 100,000 people were imprisoned, 86% of the members of Party cells in the countryside were purged, as were 95% of the *cadres* in the Anti-French resistance.”

    The regime focused its terror especially on intellectuals. Margolin notes, that in 1958 alone, “476 ‘ideological saboteurs’ were forced to make public acts of self-criticism, and were sent either to work camps or to the Vietnamese equivalent of the Chinese *laogai* [camps for ‘re-education through labor’].”

    The regime also followed its Stalinist and Maoist role models in initiating a program of forced collectivization of agriculture, with horrifying results. With instruction and supervision from their Chinese mentors. the North Vietnamese enforced a “land reform” campaign in which tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese peasants were exterminated. Noting, that this “land reform” was “a deliberate and brutal act of mass murder.” American scholar Stephen Morris comments on the overall nature of North Vietnamese terror:

    “It was a nation run by a Marxist-Leninist vanguard party, monolithic in its internal organization, its secret police and its insistence on either co-opting or mudering ALL of its political rivals. It was Stalinist in its ambition to control every aspect of society, its intent to *destroy* all autonomous social forces, and its primitive ideology of a united communist world.”

    As occurred in every socialist testing ground that shared a border with a free society, a mass exodus ensued. More than a 1,000,000 northerners fled to South Vietnam to escape the monstrous communist regime.

    Faced with these horrors, *Leftist* celebrated the new killing machine all the more eagerly. Content with venerating the regime from afar at first, Leftists could no longer contain themselves once tyranny found itself at war with the United States. In the mid-1960s they began making pilgrimages to North Vietnam to express their devotion in person.

    When one understands the psychological mindset, *psychosis* of the *Leftist* it made perfect sense, as the diagnosis explains, Leftists’ veneration for an adversarial society always increases along with that society’s antagonism toward the United States. Being at war with the United States, wins a totlitarian regime the most points. This reality has resurfaced in the terror war some forty years after the first pilgrimages to Hanoi.

    Without doubt, the Vietnam war provided a priceless gift to the Left. Lefists were now able to claim that the Vietnam conflict itself was the cause of their rage, when in fact, it was just a *symptom* of their own inner dysfunctionality. Jerry Rubin boasted:

    “If there had been NO Vietnam War, we would have invented one.”

    As Paul Hollander explains, leftist fury about Vietnam:

    “Had sources other than the aggrieved concern with the consequences of the war per se, Vietnam mobilized the rejection, criticism, or hatred, as the case may be, of American society that had been dormant or partially articulated earlier. The war gave new vehemence and assurance to the social critics who languished during the placid fifties without major issues or causes that could have “offered the key to a systematic criticism of America.” Vietnam was more a catalyst than a root cause of the rejection of American society in the 1960s. It confirmed all lurking apprehensions about the United States among the critically disposed and the estranged.”

    The phrase Hollander quotes in this passage comes from Susan Sontag: :Vietnam offered the key to a systematic criticism of America.”

    Therefore, when the war escalated in the mid-1960s the *Leftist* began to experience the bloodshed vicariously through the Vietcong, the protest in America exploded. As Leftist Rubin put it, speaking on behalf of the antiwar activists:

    “And in America we are all learning how to become Viet Kong.” Leftists’ were able to reject their own society as never before, while identifying with a new *brutal* tyranny. And as they jabbed their angry fists in the air, the political pligrimages began.

    Sontag and novelist Mary McCarthy both visited Hanoi in the spring of 1968, a few months before Sontag visited Cuba. It was a most fitting time to pay homage to these *tyrannical* regimes.

    In the Tet offensive of January-February, the Vietcong had done what attracted *Leftist* most; they perpetrated a *massacre* during the few weeks that the communist controlled the city of Hue’ the ancient imperial capital, as Margolin notes:

    “[a]t least 3,000 people were massacred, including Vietnamese priests, French religious workers, German doctors, and a number of officals and government workers. The number of deaths was higher than in the massacres carried out by Americans. Some of the victims were buried alive, others were taken away to “study sessions,” from which they never returned.”

    As the bloodshed peaked, Leftists flocked to the scene.

    Sontag’s memoir of her odessey to North Vietnam, ‘Trip to Hanoi’ contains almost every sympton noted in the Leftist’s diagnosis. Every page of her account gives voice to her self-flagellating sense of guilt for being a wealthy citizen of the imperialist power that was in her mind, vitimizing the Vietnamese for some vague and sinister reason. Her message is clear; she loathes herself for having been poisoned by her capitalist society and its sinful pleasures:

    “Of course, I could live in Vietnam, or an ethical society like this one – but not without the loss of a big part of myself. Though I believe incorporation into such a society will greatly improve the lives of most people in the world (and therefore support the advent of such societies). I imagine it will in many ways improvish mine. I live in an unethical society that coarsens the sensibilities and thwarts the capacities for goodness of most people that makes available for minority consumption an astonishing array of intellectual and aesthetic pleasures. Those who don’t enjoy (in both senses) my pleasures have every right, from their side, to regard my consciousness as spoiled, corrupt, decadent. I, from my side, can’t deny the immense richness of these pleasures, or my addiction to them.”

    And, so poor Susan Sontag, cannot afford the luxury of living in the paradise she venerates. She does not consider herself good enough; that entitlement she leaves for the enslaved Vietnamese.

    A schizophrenic outlook emerges, as Sontag believes she has found paradise in Hanoi, YET, considers herself luckier than the North Vietnamse because of the wealthier society from which she hails. She feels guilty for reaping the benefits of a society that she admits gives her more; but which she nonetheless HATES. She forgives herself for this grievous sin, by identifying herself with the victims of the society she worships.

    What utter delusion, lives in the distorted, irrational minds of Leftist!

  23. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “Donโ€™t try teaching me about church history, and the fathers, I have access to ALL of it right here in my personal library!”

    ROTFL… maybe they spent too much time on the shelf, and not enough time being read and studied.

    Read and study Romans 12, and maybe Romans 13 will make more sense to you. Either Paul was a complete fool who contradicted himself in successive verses, or you have misinterpreted the passage.

    Of course we must subordinate ourselves to the authorities, but this does not mean swearing allegiance or fighting wars for it… it simply means, in keeping with Romans 12, that we should not fight the authorities or vie for secular power ourselves, but rather we should be a people set apart from this world… as Paul says in Roman 12 “be not conformed to this world”…
    “bless them which persecute you”… “recompense to no man evil for evil”… “avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.”… “if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.”… “Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.”… it is bewildering that anyone reading this in the preceding verse could have the interpretation that you and Dictionary have of Romans 13. If you want to understand what the submission to authorities described in Romans 13 is all about, you need look no further than Christ’s example of submission and death at the hands of authorities.

    You know, I can understand Anonymous’ position because as far as he is concerned the whole thing is a load of crap… but for the life of me, I cannot understand how you and Dictionary could apply such illogical interpretations to Romans 13… especially in light of the examples set by Christ himself and the early Christian leaders.

    As I said… bewildering… maybe it stems from confusing ‘submission’ with ‘allegiance’… I don’t know, but my advice to you is to dust off those books and take another read.

  24. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “The righteous use of force by authorities in pursuit of Godly ends is exactly on the opposite end of the scale my friend”
    ……………….

    Which side is righteous in the Middle East conflict BT? Which army does BBE support in that conflict?

    The only righteous war is the one that will end all wars. ๐Ÿ™‚


  25. @ MME
    ….who do you think you are??
    ….Zoe? LOL!!

    …you are using an example where two idiots are fighting each other to present an argument that NO fight is ever worthy of being waged?

    ….what about the fight that presents itself when you come across a young thug mugging your elderly widowed neighbour….? do you turn HER other cheek?

    What about the fight that presents itself when a few misguided students tries to terrorize a whole school, or even community, to the total ruin of everyone else?

    …are you then saying that in such situations, authorities (and Christian neighbors) are not to act forcefully to protect that which is right.

    So here is my point.

    Christians should not use force or violence for secular ends – so in that I agree with your position 100%.

    But we are in a battle – not against flesh and blood, but against highly organised principalities of spiritual wickedness. Why is it inconceivable that the use of force – properly applied – would be one of the tools in a mature Christian’s arsenal?

    This is also reinforced by the well repeated principles of sparing the rod with children (that we love), and of forcefully dealing with those who break societies’ laws.

    ….note that Jesus was not reluctant to use ‘force’ for good…. like healing, and even raising the dead…. But NEVER in his own secular interest.


  26. @BT

    You choose to speak about evil and making sacrifices making men stronger. Would you agree to a generalisation of the two as challenges? and that it is overcoming challenges that make men stronger?


  27. @ ROK
    I have no idea what you are speaking about…. and Bush Tea rarely agrees to generalizations…


  28. @MME, Paul was most certainly NO fool, neither did he contradict himself in successive verses, and I have not misinterpreted any of Paul’s teachings!

    You, as I’ve said before, have a problem in not understanding the proper principles of Biblical Hermeneutics, Contextual Analysis, and Linguistic Exegesis, thereby confusing different themes, that are not always directly related to others that follow. I.e., Romans 12, and what Paul is dealing with here, as distinct from Romans 13.

    “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your *bodies* a living sacrifice, holy acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.”

    “And be NOT conformed to this world: but be ye *transformed* by the renewing of your *mind* that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God.” (Rom. 12: 1-2). emphasis added.

    The last section of Romans is in two parts. First, Paul discusses ‘the laws of Christian life (12: 1-13:7), and then he dicusses the laws of Christian love (13: 8-16:24). The first of these sections is in three parts, and deals respectively with the believer’s *spiritual* *social* and *secular* relationships of life.

    The discussion of the *spiritual* life of the Christian is in two parts. First, Paul deals with the Christian as a *believer* (12:1-2), and then with the Christian as a *brother* (12:3-13).

    Romans 12:1, is dealing with the challenge to do with the believer’s *body* which Paul now reveals to be the ultimate key to the practice of the victorious Christian life. It is of little avail to know theoretically the truths of Romans 6-8, if the *body* is not surrendered so that the life of Christ can be expressed in the everyday affairs of life.

    The express reason that Paul first identifies the *body* IS because our 5 senses, taste, scent, sight, hearing, and touch, are the primary things in our physical bodies, that invariably *RULE* our carnal, sinful nature, and still affects Christians in a serious way.

    Think of each of the following expressions: “I don’t like the smell,” “It’s too hot.” “I’m too tired.” “Does it taste good.” “What does it feel like?” ‘Don’t do that, it hurts.” “Isn’t it ugly?” “Let me tell you what Betty said.” Each of these statements reflects a physical reaction. People are ruled by the senses, by which they see, feel, hear, taste or smell.

    Therefore, Paul is beseeching Christians, to take control of these *senses* and do NOT allow them to rule their lives, bodies, (Gk.somata).

    Secondly, Paul now turns to the their *minds* (nous), where the *inner* life of a man comes from, his thoughts, desires, intellect, will, and expresses itself in how we behave, relate, carry on our daily lives. Because, the *world* system around the Christian IS driven by the ‘senses’ and carnally , unregenerate ‘minds’, Paul is saying ‘…NOT to be conformed to this world, BUT be transformed by the *renewing* of your mind…” (v.2)

    I will deal with the other verses you mentioned in Romans 12 tomorrow. However, I must take you up on your latter statement, tonight.

    “If you want to understand what submission to authorities described in Romans 13, is all about, you must look no further than Christ’s example of submission and death at the hands of authorities.”

    MME, this statement really confirms not only how little you know about correct interpretation of God’s Word, BUT, also, how little you know and understand about Jesus’ His death, (crucifixion) and the eternal purpose for which He offered Himself, as a propitiation, substitution, for the redemption, of mankind.

    What Jesus did in *offering* Himself has no direct bearing on our discussion re Romans 13.

    Hear Him:

    ” As the Father knoweth Me, even so know I the Father, and I *lay* down My Life for the sheep.”

    “Therefore doth My Father love Me, because I *lay* down My life, that I might TAKE it again.”

    Now, read carefully, what Jesus then goes on to say:

    “NO MAN taketh it from ME, but I *lay* it down of Myself. I have the *power* to *lay* it down, and I have the power to take it again. This commandment have I received of My Father.” (John. 10: 15, 17, 18) emphasis added.

    No individual, group, or government (authorities) had the power to kill Christ. He voluntarily died for our sins!


  29. Once more . . .

    MME:

    You will first note that I pointed to Luther as a witness to the objectively true fundamental problem of the Fathers and theologians more generally: if you simply scan their opinions, they are all over the place.

    So, mere weight of citations and excerpts piled up is not good enough, as they differ and plainly can err.

    The issue is that which is foundational, i.e. the classic and correct challenge of the Protestant Reformation, for all its inevitable flaws.

    So, re: >> Lookโ€ฆ. I can understand why it is hard to accept Christโ€™s advice when the lure of secular power is so appealingโ€ฆ I even understand why others might conclude it is illogical adviceโ€ฆ >>

    1 –> We must not confuse our reading for Christ’s teaching properly understood in its context. A subtle but easily made error. And, Jesus was not being irrational (“spiritual” does not equate to “irrational” . . . ! Cf Rom 12:1 – 2 etc: a renewed mind is a reformed one not an irrational one, and our spiritual worship is “reasonable”: NB Strongs here: Gk log-ik-os’ From G3056; rational (โ€œlogicalโ€) . . . “); but instead it is your misreading that is leading you to reductio ad absurdum, which you are then projecting back out onto our Lord, Him who is the Logos of Jn 1, i.e. Reason Himself! (BTW pope Benedict XVI made a very interesting lecture on this at Regensberg that was much twisted and derided in the apostate media.)

    2 –> The actual text, again, of Christ’s teachings in the Sermon on the Mount (as previously given by me):

    >>MT 5:17 โ€œDo not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them . . . . 5:38 โ€œYou have heard that it was said, โ€˜An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.โ€™45 5:39 But I say to you, do not resist the evildoer.46 But whoever strikes you on the47 right cheek, turn the other to him as well. 5:40 And if someone wants to sue you and to take your tunic,48 give him your coat also. 5:41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile,49 go with him two . . . >>

    3 –> His teaching on God and Caesar, actual text again:

    >> Matt 22:15 Then the Pharisees9 went out and planned together to entrap him with his own words.10 22:16 They sent to him their disciples along with the Herodians,11 saying, โ€œTeacher, we know that you are truthful, and teach the way of God in accordance with the truth.12 You do not court anyoneโ€™s favor because you show no partiality.13 22:17 Tell us then, what do you think? Is it right14 to pay taxes15 to Caesar16 or not?โ€

    22:18 But Jesus realized their evil intentions and said, โ€œHypocrites! Why are you testing me? 22:19 Show me the coin used for the tax.โ€ So17 they brought him a denarius.18 22:20 Jesus19 said to them, โ€œWhose image20 is this, and whose inscription?โ€ 22:21 They replied,21 โ€œCaesarโ€™s.โ€ He said to them,22 โ€œThen give to Caesar the things that are Caesarโ€™s, and to God the things that are Godโ€™s.โ€23 22:22 Now when they heard this they were stunned,24 and they left him and went away. >>

    4 –> Teaching of his Apostle to the nations [notice the thematic connexion on Caesar and taxpaying . . . i.e. Paul is here elaborating on Jesus in light of the span of OT teaching that Christ came to “fulfill”], Paul (whom we are counselled by the college of Apostles — the base source on the gospels, BTW), wrote scripture that is prone to being wrenched destructively by the ill-instructed. And, we are thus given the test of scripture as a criterion of soundness:

    >>Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by Godโ€™s appointment,1 and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God. 13:2 So the person who resists such authority2 resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will incur judgment 13:3 (for rulers cause no fear for good conduct but for bad). Do you desire not to fear authority? Do good and you will receive its commendation, 13:4 for it is Godโ€™s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be in fear, for it does not bear the sword in vain. It is Godโ€™s servant to administer retribution on the wrongdoer. 13:5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of the wrath of the authorities3 but also because of your conscience.4 13:6 For this reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities5 are Godโ€™s servants devoted to governing.6 13:7 Pay everyone what is owed: taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

    13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 13:9 For the commandments,7 โ€œDo not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not covet,โ€8 (and if there is any other commandment) are summed up in this, โ€œLove your neighbor as yourself.โ€9 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. >>

    5 –> Laid out like this, we can AGAIN see that in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus is primarily addressing how we deal with a personally offensive situation: we are not to be retaliatory or waspish. That is, so much as it lies with us, we are to support the civil peace. (This was presented before, but ignored and buried under mounds of irrelevant remarks, a well known distractive rhetorical pattern.)

    6 –> At the same time, Jesus was not counselling passivity in the face of oppression or injustice: he was after all a reforming prophet who at least once and possibly twice cleansed the temple of moneychangers; whip in hand and tables tumbling away with ill-gotten gains rolling across the floor. that is, not being waspish is a basis for being a prophetic reformer, not a substitute for it.

    7 –> Now, too, in teaching on love of neighbour [I won’t cite in extenso as that would make this utterly too long], Jesus’ point in the Good Samaritan speaks again to the context of the civil peace: we extend peace across lines of enmity, and we act to succor the victims of enemies of that peace.

    8 –> But, given a world in which wolves always abound, how is that peace set up and defended? At personal level, obviously, we must not join the wolves or join the indifferent and callous. But, there is also a civil level, which calls for different things.

    9 –> At first level this comes out with the issue of Caesar and taxes. Jesus is answering a trick trap-question (an implicit destructive dilemma: yes pay tax and you alienate Israel chafing under colonial domination and violation of the Law that the King should be a brother Israelite, no don’t and you are a rebel against Rome) so he is not elaborate. But in his answer he is clear: Caesar — a pagan though he be and too often unjust though he be — has a role, and he has a right to taxes in support of that role.

    10 –> Paul’s elaboration gives the context (and Zoe correctly points to the root Biblical history and teaching on government — onlookers notice the attempted dismissal by attack to the man instead of coming to grips with the substance; revealing the sad fundamental irresponsibility of the objectors).

    11 –> In so elaborating Paul highlights that nationhood and government are instituted by God to guard the civil peace of justice. (By dividing humanity into nations with separate governments, languages and cultures, God ensures that here will be no easy way for one rebellious and tyrannical dictator to rise up, dominate and domineer all of humanity. This is the hidden danger in world government under sinful, rebellious and apostate men. And, in Rev, when such emerges again, it is a part of the final judgement of God on sinful man.)

    12 –> Since the wolves, foreign and domestic, will not yield to reason or to gentle forbearance, Paul — following the mass of relevant Biblical teaching — explicitly highlights that the civil authority is armed with the sword of justice. That is, we are not now dealing with neighbours but those who have waged war against the civil peace and who will not be moved by gentle remonstrance or appeals to reform of error and abuse. So, law and law enforcement including defence forces, are specific institutions of government under God.

    13 –> It is that context of doing the civil community good by protecting it, that Paul states that the sword is in the hands of the civil authority. (ONLOOKERS, OBSERVE THAT EVERY TIME I HAVE POINTED TO THE FIRST LEVEL OF SWORD-BEARING CIVIL AUTHORITY, THE POLICE, OBJECTORS HAVE FALLEN SILENT. No prizes for guessing why.)

    14 –> And, it is in support of that task that the civil authority has taxing power. Which is of course an instrument of force: what happens if you refuse to pay your taxes, why? (Cf here Paul’s observations of rightly fearing the authority if one does the wrong.)

    15 –> Of course there are many subtle balances, some of which I have brought out by discussing the events that happened only a few months after Paul wrote these words in AD 57.

    16 –> Namely, we saw how the mob slandered against the life of Paul and sought to turn rule by the people into murder by the people. the tribune intervened with a significant armed contingent that broke up the riot, and tried to find out the charges and the defence, to seek a just outcome.

    17 –> A hearing with the local civl authority, the Sanhedrin, led to abuse: Paul being slapped when he tried to make his defence statement and when he understandably retaliated (but in so doing overstepped Jesus’ turn the other cheek counsel — see the difference here?) he was accused of lese majeste. Soon the hearing broke up in disorder, once Paul had put his core point, which was a theological position not a crime against the civil peace.

    18 –> Soon, a plot was made to use the pretext of a follow up hearing to set up murder by members of the mob acting as vigilantes. But, on learning of the plot the tribune acted to defend the prisoner, escorting him under armed guard — 400 foot and 70 horse — to the roman provincial capital; from which after years and various hearings in which he was found to be without fault, he had to appeal further to the throne as the final court of appeal.

    19 –> So, here we see the same pattern of interposition as in Daniel: even a relatively junior official is an agent of justice under God, so he has a duty of justice, including corrective intervention officially or with the people, as appropriate. [All this is elaborated in the document here that I have linked before.]

    20 –> Thus, we can see that there is no contradiction between Jesus and Paul, there is no inconsistency in the Biblical view; just, the objectors are missing the difference between being civil and gentle or showing forbearance within the civil peace and the public duty of the civil official to defend that peace from the wolves.

    21 –> Onlookers, note how consistently the objectors avoid this topic, and how they refuse the point that one is responsible morally for the reasonably predictable or probable consequences of one’s counsel.

    22 –> Similarly, the idea of the Christian as a part of a tiny isolated group with no civic duties to the community and/or no call to be involved in the civil functions and offices is also irresponsible. yes, we are not to be waspish, and we must be vigilant against abuse of office and the power of force [starting with words, not just the sword!], oppression, deception etc, but we must also see that the civil authority is God’s servant to defend the civil peace of justice.

    _____________

    There comes a time when we must draw the bottomline, and that time has now come.

    for, we can clearly enough see the weight of the substance on the ethical and biblical/theological merits, and it is clear that the attempt to dismiss or ignore the counsel of the Apostle to the Nations indicates a fundamental error.

    For, some plainly would take the counsel that we must not be waspish but rather forbear with our neighbour and use it to artificially cast one scripture against another in contention; ending up in a position that in effect says “wolves, welcome: sheep for lunch freely available.”

    And that in the teeth of explicit teaching that God has established the civil authority to defend the civil peace; arming it with the only means effective against wolves: the sword. (And BTW, a big part of the issue is that the purpose of Government has in large part been dislocated, form defending the civl peace and setting up a zone of blessing in whch we may build a community, into the Benefasctor who uses taxing power to give plums tot he politically powerful at the expense of those who are less powerful on balance under the rules of the relevant polity. in a democratic polity, that means use of explicit taxation and inflationism — a hidden tax — to sustain “free” government services that are economically ruinous in the long run. So, let us learn that the resulting breakdown historically leads to fascist dictatorship as masses idolatrously seek political messiahs in the face of resulting crises, and let us hope we will act wisely. Sadly, current world and regional events do not give me much hope on this.)

    Sadly, in our day, even in the face of patent reduction to absurdity, positions are often stoutly advocated.

    MME (and others), please, please, please; think again.

    De Dictionary


  30. PS: MME, I note your

    >>Read and study Romans 12, and maybe Romans 13 will make more sense to you. Either Paul was a complete fool who contradicted himself in successive verses, or you have misinterpreted the passage. Of course we must subordinate ourselves to the authorities, but this does not mean swearing allegiance or fighting wars for itโ€ฆ it simply means, in keeping with Romans 12, that we should not fight the authorities or vie for secular power ourselves, but rather we should be a people set apart from this worldโ€ฆ as Paul says in Roman 12 โ€œbe not conformed to this worldโ€โ€ฆ
    โ€œbless them which persecute youโ€โ€ฆ โ€œrecompense to no man evil for evilโ€โ€ฆ โ€œavenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.โ€โ€ฆ If you want to understand what the submission to authorities described in Romans 13 is all about, you need look no further than Christโ€™s example of submission and death at the hands of authorities. >>

    . . . and think a word or two are in order.

    Do y0u not see that the above shows that : (a) we are not to be waspish (the way of the world), but (b) it is also true that God has ordained the civil authority and armed it to defend the civil peace of justice; which (c) are entirely consistent one with the other?

    Defending the civil peace of justice is not taking vengeance or recompensing evil for evil etc — note the underlying subtly slanderous projection of evil motive on just actions! — but instead it is the protective role of the shepherd who defends his flock from the wolf packs: think about what your misreading implies about the police, the first level of sword-bearing authority in defence of the civil peace!

    In short, you have projected a twisted view of the civil authority onto the reading of Rom 13 you give; onward, that misreading would imply that God commands us to fund the perpetration of “evil” and “vengeance” through paying taxes.

    Not at all.

    The more correct, far more coherent understanding is that we are to be more than reasonable in upholding the civil peace through being forbearing with those who attack us within the civil community (so we are not to be vengeful, sharp tongued, vindictive, but do good to those who do us evil, pray for and patiently correct those who slander us and do us wrong otherwise, etc) AND we are to support the cause of justice as the armed shield of the civil peace, first of all with our taxes. And, on the strength of the whole counsel of Scripture, some of us will serve — as called by God — in the civil government. Others will be prophetic reformers, seeking to correct evils. Some will indeed be like Wilberforce, both. But all of us will be good citizens who act with neighbour love and do no harm that damages neighbour. Where, wolves are not neighbours, but enemies of all. So, even though we respect that the wolves are made in God’s image and are fellow persons [so we do not treat hem abusively or cruelly], we must defend the civil peace, starting with paying our taxes, supporting the police (and the police writ large . . . i.e. defence forces) and voting for good government that enacts and enforces just law.


  31. PPS: And on “vengeance is mine, I will repay says the Lord, directly observe Rom 13:4 >> [the civil authority] is Godโ€™s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be in fear, for it does not bear the sword in vain. It is Godโ€™s servant to administer retribution [Strongs: ek’-dik-os From G1537 and G1349; carrying justice out, that is, a punisher: – a (re-) venger] on the wrongdoer . . . >> What is God’s normal means of repaying those who break the civil peace and harm their neighbours: the civil authority is God’s servant, bearing the sword to execute punishment under justice; i.e. dovetailing precisely with the principle that we are not to be personally vengeful nor should we take the part of a vigilante or lynch mob.

  32. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    โ€œNO MAN taketh it from ME, but I *lay* it down of Myself.โ€

    Zoeโ€ฆ that is the very definition of submissionโ€ฆ and if that example isnโ€™t good enough for youโ€ฆ here are some disciples submitting to authority (all the while praying for their attackers)โ€ฆ

    Peterโ€ฆ crucified upside down
    Andrewโ€ฆ crucified on an x-shaped cross
    Bartholemewโ€ฆ flayed alive and beheaded
    Thomasโ€ฆ stabbed with a lance at Corehandal
    Judeโ€ฆ battered to death with a club and beheaded
    Philipโ€ฆ crucified at Heirapole
    Matthewโ€ฆ beheaded in Ethiopia
    Jamesโ€ฆ stabbed with a sword by King Herod
    James the Lesserโ€ฆ stoned and beaten to death
    Simonโ€ฆ crucified in Persia
    Tahddeusโ€ฆ shot to death by arrows

    โ€ฆ not one of these employed violent resistance or wielded a weapon in their defense. Similar can be said of the Church โ€˜Fathersโ€™ of the first three centuries, many of whom suffered similar fates. Go figure. Dust off those books Zoe ๐Ÿ™‚

  33. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    โ€œ@ MMEโ€จโ€ฆ.who do you think you are??โ€จโ€ฆ.Zoe? LOL!!โ€

    LOL BTโ€ฆ I consider that a violent attack, but I will not respond in kind ๐Ÿ™‚

    Before I address the โ€˜old widowโ€™, and internal policing-type issues that seem to be challenging so many, let me ask you another questionโ€ฆ which war over the past 2,000 years was just, and which army righteous?

    By the wayโ€ฆ I like that closing example of using โ€œโ€ฆ โ€˜forceโ€™ for goodโ€ฆ. like healing, and even raising the deadโ€. LOLโ€ฆ when I refer to violent resistance, it is not that type of force I am speaking of.

  34. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    โ€œYou will first note that I pointed to Luther as a witness to the objectively true fundamental problem of the Fathers and theologians more generally: if you simply scan their opinions, they are all over the place.โ€
    ……………………………

    Dictionary,

    โ€ฆ and โ€˜Christiansโ€™ in Lutherโ€™s time and today are not all over the place? LOLโ€ฆ but seeing that you have invited me to scan their opinions, I accept this gracious offer and request that you assist me by providing one example of a pre-313 โ€˜Fatherโ€™ whose opinion on war and violent resistance differed from that which I have presentedโ€ฆ if you run into any difficulties, you can call on Zoeโ€ฆ he has access to all the volumes of competent, well recognized Church history in his personal library.


  35. @MME, You are going around and around in circles of concentric *stubbornness* recalcitrance, bullheaded, cantankerous, and yes, ignorance, as you wilfully refuse in your obdurate folly, to accept the clear obvious biblical distinction between the individual, NOTE, the individual Christian who is called NOT to offer vile resistance, hate, etc., against those who do him wrong, as Dictionary has painstakingly expounded, time and again, with rational biblical citations, even BT has submitted his own rational arguments and questions, to which you REFUSE to answer, I KNOW that you see and understand all that has been submitted, BUT, *PRIDE* will not allow you to concede that you are wrong in your erroneous, stubbornness which has been glaringly exposed.

    Civil authorities, who have been *ordained* by Almighty God, Romans 13, to act on behalf of the society, nation, with the *sword* if necessary, be it internal dissention, OR external threat, to its peace and safty; IS an entirely different matter to the *individual* imperative of not reacting with force, as was, the case with Peter down to Tahddeus, et al, right up to this very day, i.e., Sudan et al countries, BUT, this IS not to be confused with the *CIVIL* authorities, God ordained *right* Romans 13, and beginnings with Noah in Genesis, after the flood, to execute *wrath* against those who seek to subvert justice and civil order, be it a national uprising, OR from external tyrants.

    MME, you remind me of Japan’s Stubbornness Club, where Stubbornness caused a split, formed by 2o people who considered themselves *obstinate* people, (like you) but wanted to be worthwhile members of society. Their monthly meetings became increasingly heated, and the vice-president resigned to form a rival Society for the Preservation of Stubbornness.

    Stubborn Disease.

    At least a quarter million and possibly a million citrus trees in California suffer from “stubborn disease,” according to a California plant pathologist. While the cause of “stubborn disease” in citrus is not known, we certainly know where *your* stubborn born disease comes from, in man is no mystery. This ailment can be traced back to the Garden of Eden!

    BTW, MME, my library is in constant us, no dust here!

  36. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “as you wilfully refuse in your obdurate folly, to accept the clear obvious biblical distinction between the individual…”

    ROTFL… ok Zoe… if you cant find any ‘individual’ examples, as is evidently the case, feel free to substitute an army or any group of pre-313 Christians engaged in violent resistance. After all, they had as good a reason as any group throughout history to wage ‘righteous war’ against their persecutors.

    @Bush Tea… Zoe has cited you in defense of his doctrine of violent resistance… LOL… be careful of the company you keep ๐Ÿ™‚

    Getting back to the example of your elderly widowed neighbourโ€ฆ the Christian response (based on pre-313 โ€˜first principlesโ€™) would be to defend her non-violentlyโ€ฆ even at the risk of suffering violence yourself. Ask yourself how Christ would have responded. I know this response is unlikely to satisfy most people, for certain not the BU Christian Soldiers, but anyone who checks the historical records can verify that this is indeed what Christianityโ€™s first practitioners taught before their successors signed a pact with Constantine.

  37. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    I recommend the works of Tolstoy, Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. for those who have difficulty with the ‘practicality’ of nonviolent resistance.

    Chapter 13 in Martin Luther King Jr.’s “Stride Toward Freedom”, specifically the paragraph titled “Muste, Nietzsche and Gandhi” is a good place to turn for quick insight… here are some of his words…

    “Prior to reading Gandhi, I had about concluded that the ethics of Jesus were only effective in individual relationship. The “turn the other cheek” philosophy and the “love your enemies” philosophy were only valid, I felt, when individuals were in conflict with other individuals; when racial groups and nations were in conflict a more realistic approach seemed necessary. But after reading Gandhi, I saw how utterly mistaken I was.”

    The full chapter can be read here…

    http://salsa.net/peace/conv/8weekconv4-4.html


  38. Am I the only one sleeping well ’bout here? Imagine hardly a true Christian anywhere since 313 AD.


  39. @MME
    Man the pressure of this blogging thing like it getting to you yuh!! … or maybe you catching a version of the Stockholm syndrome …. you starting to behave like your persecutors.. LOL (real hard!!)

    …step back a bit MM….(and remember the ‘E’)

    …the point of contention is whether the use of force by Christians is ever justified….. you keep referring to wars, revenge, secular power and assorted other red herrings.

    What war what?!?

    We all agree that Christians should be way above things like these.

    Now can we talk about the kinds of battles that Christians SHOULD be involved in? … and discuss whether any use of force may ever be appropriate?

    As you know, our fight is not against flesh and blood (i.e. not about anything secular, or earthly) but against principalities and spiritual wickedness….

    Now follow me carefully, -unlike Zoe and GP and those bright boys, Bush men do not have reference books, concordances and those other fancy things, (I have a bible somewhere, but have not seen it in years…)

    The lesson about how Christians should behave lies in the raising of our youth…. (after careful thought, you will understand that this was the point that Jesus was making when he said ‘suffer the children to come to me -for of such is the Kingdom….’)

    Children are born with empty slates and are raised by society to hopefully join the community as successful adults one day.

    (Christians begin with empty slates and hopefully grow ‘in the spirit’ to hopefully join the Kingdom (become members of the BBE clan) one day.

    Do you really think that a good school Principal uses the cane for fun or personal gratification?
    …or is it more likely that, using his vast experience, and because he loves and cares about his student’s welfare, he takes action to protect that wayward student from the wicked influences that threaten their future success?

    So Senior teachers may use the rod….Likewise, any use of righteous force would be by highly developed Christians (not those still on milk as Paul described it..) ,,,and may well include healing, defending justice, and uplifting the weak…

    Christian policeman?

    You interpretation of the admonition to be in the world but not OF the world is rather simplistic… (especially for an Ing.) … this does nor forbid Christians from doing jobs like policeman, and even Soldiers. However, whatever the job, the Christian stands out as ‘not of this world’ by their outlook, focus on the Kingdom, and their example of righteousness.

    Finally, take my foolish advice and stop arguing about anything that Paul says about Christianity. Paul was blessed with a special perception and understanding that makes him a misleading teacher…
    ..in short, Paul knew too much draft for his own good…. Bush Tea would know…rotfl
    …Check the very last thing that Peter says in the new testament…. he understood the problem with Paul too…


  40. @MME, the pre-313 Christians, individually and collectively, represented, were, the ‘Church’ persecuted, they were *NOT* the civil authorities, in the teeth of an pagan empire, torturing and killing them in the most brutal manner, there WAS no such civil authorities to come to their assistance, hence they could only depend of Christ to carry them through this horror; as they were NOT called to be an army to bear the *sword* and the *civil* authority, WAS the Roman soldiers, who persecuted and killed the Christians.

    Now, as we come on down through the centuries, i.e., Ganghi, India, and Martin Luther King Jr, in the United States, we find an entirely different set of social, political, and civil dynamics at work.

    Gandhi’s non-violent protest had the civil authorities, notwithstanding the colonial ‘spirit’, to some extent, protecting him and his cause, as did King, which would have been unheard of in the days of the pre-313 era, or even today in any *Islamist* nation, as NO such non-violent demonstration IS permitted in these tyrannical regimes!

    MME, can you imagine a world, hypothetically speaking, where there are NO civil authorities, as we have in Western culture, to bear the *sword* against those who hated what Gandhi and King were fighting for? If all nations were Islamist, Gandhi and King would have been executed instantly!

    I, personally have gone through terrible oppression, slander, hatred, even my very ‘life’ was threatened on live Radio, as a direct result of uncompromisingly standing up for The Lord Jesus Christ, and His Word, and, I never sought to engage in any violent reaction, I fearlessly, stood my ground verbally, relentlessly, as I still do, ‘Earnestly Contending for the *faith* (doctrinal substance), once for all delivered to the saints.” (Jude 1:3)

    However, if our nation discovers a subversive plot, as America has discovered,(Islamist) to subtly take it over , then, I whole-heartedly support our God ordained *civil* authorities, i.e., Army, Police, etc, that must protect us from such subversive invasion, to rob us our our God-given freedom and civil rights.

    So help me God, I can do no other!

    Because, it IS biblically based, as God has ordained it to be so; until Jesus returns to establish His soveriegn riegn on earth!


  41. MME:

    Right now, I am taking a pause from counselling a legislator on integrity legislation with teeth for a Caribbean country. (So, here I am wielding the sword at a couple of steps removed . . . and seeing on the ground how words exert force, especially when they are words of law.)

    As I look at your latest dismissive remarks, I find again a conspicuous failure to engage the responsibility of civil authority to defend the civil peace of justice. That starts with the police, immigration and customs, all armed with the force of law and backed up by courts and in the end guns. (Even here in tiny islands, money does not move without MP5s etc to guard it these days. Gone are the days when the old .38 or even .32 service revolver was enough.)

    the police officers who hold those MP5s and wear flack jackets know full well that they may be called upon to use the power of the sword; and that their lives are on the line too.

    Indeed, shifting just slightly, in the yard of the main police station here (right in front of the gaol) sits a canvas-covered sturdy wooden boat a bit shy of 40 ft long, modelled off a Cigarette, with SEVEN outboard motors on its stern; and it had one more sitting in it, a spare.

    A few months back, satellites picked up the boat running north from Venezuela, up to I think St Maarten, apparently running at about 60 – 80 mph in serious seas. On the way back, with Antigua CG chasing from behind, and with French CG [Guadeloupe] blocking in front, it turned in towards E coast here, in the exclusion zone.

    Our little souped up inflatable had to stand int he way, with Antigua coming up in the rear in support. Attempted ramming (of our boat) and responsive gunfire; it seems from A’ga CG.

    Our boys had to actually go up in a Zodiac with inner fibreglass bottom against a boat with a dozen likely druggie terrs in it. Turns out dozens of drums of gasoline for the engines were in the smuggler.

    One dead druggie and I think two wounded in the end. Could have been worse, a lot worse.

    Now, I am talking here about ordinary cops who go to church come Sunday or Saturday morning, who may sit on deacon’s boards etc; in a community the pop of a village in Barbados. A community that may have one murder every several years and whose biggest single crime problem is probably white collar corruption.

    Now, should such cops lay down their weapons, and should they refuse to use the zodiac like that, even in the face of in effect armed drug terrorists?

    What would predictably happen?

    Now, so happens that I know one of the key cops in question reasonably well. Nice guy; real peaceful. But, he is the one who had to go up in a zodiac with maybe an MP5 if so much against probably SMG armed druggies in a boat that could easily simply have run down and smashed the Zodiac.

    My reading of Rom 13 is that this man should not be personally vindictive or waspish, but that as an officer of civil government he is armed with the sword to defend the civil peace from evildoers like this. A peace that needs defending in a world where literally over the course of a night druggie terrs loaded for bear can reach here from Venezuela, in a souped up speedboat doing maybe 80 mph. A Venezuela that also just happens to have Hezbollah bases and that just happens to be an ALLY of Iran that just publicly offered to host an offshore Iranian nuke programme and has just plunked down billions for subs, jets and tanks etc; while takign steps to shut down the independent voices in the media.

    All, to deafening silence from CARICOM, including it seems Barbados. (Which has not had its mouth stuffed with Petrocaribe dollars and debt. Talk about financial force . . . )

    My reading is that this man is not an evil doer [just to know him would make that ridiculous], nor is he acting vengefully. he is an avenger of justice, so appointed by God, and thus accountable before God with that stricter judgement that obtains for any who take up official positions. He needs prayer, support and counsel [as well as decent pay and provision for his widow and orphans if he should fall in the line of duty, as could so easily have happened that horrible morning only a few months ago], not demonisation and assertions or implications/ insinuations that simply for standing up to evil in defence of the community, he is evil himself.

    Nor, do I find any compelling reason to read the Bible NT or OT to infer that he is an evil man to stand up in defence of justice, armed with a . . . Zodiac inflatable boat and maybe an MP5 if the authorities thought in advance that such should be issued. (And I remember the days in J’ca where cops with .38s and old WW 1 era .303s [the old bullnose version SMLE, not the W 2 era ones I saw in Barbados] and maybe a 12 ga shotgun, went up against terrorists armed with M 16s and AK 47s etc.)

    I have repeatedly cited Rom 13, on that.

    Maybe, I should add from Colossians, to make the matter further clear:

    >>Col 1: 15He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together . . . .

    Rom 13: 1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
    Love, for the Day is Near
    8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,”[a] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. >>

    __________

    Clear enough.

    Good day.

    De Dictionary

    PS: Onlookers, observe how MME again failed to address the question on the merits on Luther, who cited a fact that is easily shown: the diversity across the fathers is proof enough that apart from the examination of the grounds for their opinion, simply mounting up lists of cites and claiming “consensus” is useless. No authority is better than his facts, assumptions and reasoning. I have laid out my reasoning, and cited Luther on the importance of doing that, explicitly disavowing him as any authority to be blindly followed. MME’s distractive attempt to dismiss Luther the man therefore shows that something is very wrong with how he is arguing.

    PPS: here is 2 Cor 10:4 – 5 in Amp to clarify the locus of the spiritual warfare in view:

    >> 2 Corinthians 10:4-5 (Amplified Bible)

    4For the weapons of our warfare are not physical [weapons of flesh and blood], but they are mighty before God for the overthrow and destruction of strongholds,

    5[Inasmuch as we] refute arguments and theories and reasonings and every proud and lofty thing that sets itself up against the [true] knowledge of God; and we lead every thought and purpose away captive into the obedience of Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) . . . >>

    That is, corrective argument is the spiritual strategy and weapon in view; countering the weapons of deception and confusion, principal devices of the Devil. And, by God’s grace, that is the weapon I have sought to wield. MME, maybe this, this and this will help you see and fix what has gone wrong with how you are reasoning.


  42. PPPS: Sorry on the italic. Also, try this on fallacies and agitprop


  43. P4s: try again: this on fallacies and agitprop

  44. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    โ€œthe diversity across the fathers is proof enough that apart from the examination of the grounds for their opinion, simply mounting up lists of cites and claiming โ€œconsensusโ€ is useless.โ€

    @Dictionaryโ€ฆ if you disagree with the early Church โ€˜fathersโ€™ position with respect to nonviolent resistance, say so, but donโ€™t try to mislead people into believing that it is some sort of coincidence they all spoke and behaved in exactly the same way when it came to this issue.

    There was absolutely no diversity across the early Church โ€˜fathersโ€™ on the issue of nonviolent resistanceโ€ฆ none. It is more than a passing curiosity that a group of people so diverse in opinions, would be unanimous on this one.
    …………………………………….

    @BTโ€ฆ LOLโ€ฆ so waitโ€ฆ you reduce my submissions to the question of whether Christians can be police? ROTFLโ€ฆ talk bout simplistic analysis. Donโ€™t worry; it will all make sense to you in the end.

    Without releasing too much draft, here is a rhetorical questionโ€ฆ I am sure a discerning mind like yours will make the connection โ€ฆ Do you believe that โ€˜Christiansโ€™ have a monopoly on salvation? [Note, I said rhetoricalโ€ฆ the last thing I want, is to start Zoe and Dictionary up again] ๐Ÿ™‚


  45. @GEM,

    ” [Notice the studied silence on such. A key step here would be to support the people of Iran and their legitimate representatives in their liberation struggle against their Islamist tyrants.]”

    ++++

    The silence is because it has not (yet) become a topic of discussion.

    But you know that.

    As you have done many many times, you take the opportunity for a nasty swipe.

    Shall I condemn you for every crime you have failed to mention and condemn?

    And here, another nasty, callous accusation:

    “ONLOOKERS, NOTICE HOW HITLER IS BEING โ€œREHABILITATEDโ€ ”

    Why? because I dont share your hypothesis? I dont care if you dont accept the views of the historians I presented. It is simply enough, they have an alternative, creditable view.

    And how about this nasty closing strawman,

    “So, it is those who by their arguments imply that cities have to go up in nuclear smoke and fire before serious responses can be taken [by those crippled by such blows?], who have a case to prove.”

    Really? you have resorted to that?

    Now look what is sad.

    ++++

    You cant even have a conversation with MME without this kind of assertion:

    “……maybe this, this and this will help you see and fix what has gone wrong with how you are reasoning.”

    No, Mr GEM, sometimes people dont accept your reasoning.

    Deal with it.

  46. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    I en drop a classic poem in a long time… ๐Ÿ™‚

    “Stand ye calm and resolute,
    Like a forest close and mute,
    With folded arms and looks which are
    Weapons of unvanquished war.
    And if then the tyrants dare,
    Let them ride among you there,
    Slash, and stab, and maim and hew,
    What they like, that let them do.
    With folded arms and steady eyes,
    And little fear, and less surprise
    Look upon them as they slay
    Till their rage has died away
    Then they will return with shame
    To the place from which they came,
    And the blood thus shed will speak
    In hot blushes on their cheek.
    Rise like Lions after slumber
    In unvanquishable number,
    Shake your chains to earth like dew
    Which in sleep had fallen on you-
    Ye are many โ€” they are few”

    – P.B. Shelley


  47. @MME,

    I think you are quite correct in your view.

    Question: did Jesus and Paul advocate the same religion?


  48. Two “greatest commandments”

    – love god etc

    – love your neighbours as yourself

    On these commandments “hang all the law and the prophets”

    Pretty clear to me.

    Preemptive strikes not allowed !


  49. @MME
    I feel that some architect or something using your handle MME….this is not like you…
    …instead of responding to specific challenges, you seem to be cherry picking minor points and then asking questions in response……

    I take it that you get my point about righteous force…??

    You ask….
    “Do you believe that โ€˜Christiansโ€™ have a monopoly on salvation? ”

    IMHO…
    All that true ‘Christians’ have, is an opportunity to live a successful life. This ‘opportunity’ is conferred when the very spirit of God unlocks a previously closed aspect of their psyche.

    (Since you raised this, the secular parallel to this is represented when the spirit (sperm) of a man fertilizes the egg of a woman; – providing a previously doomed egg with the potential to complete a 9-month term and IF SUCCESSFUL, to be born into the man’s family.)

    Of course others can reap salvation besides Christians. …(a man can adopt…)

    Besides,
    The old prophets, and men of God, and also the coming phase will present unimaginable opportunities…

    BTW
    “Without releasing too much draft,…”

    …you still screeching the draft after all these years? LOL
    Man drop the draft….

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