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The Bible And The Qur'an, Brothers Kept Apart

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brotherskeptapartFellow blogger Weighed in the Balance has undertaken the ambitious and highly risky task of writing a book which as he terms it “is a comparative analysis of the Bible and the Qur’an, and it assumes that both books are correct.  If God is the principal author of each book, as Christians and Muslims claim, then a comparative analysis should reveal harmony between the principal teachings of both.  This is what I have found.  Hence, Christians and Muslims have been kept apart by their religious leaders who have taught their adherents that God has rejected the other group.” The topic matter was thought to be so contentious that he originally penned his book using a pseudonym.

Phillip’s book is titled Brothers Kept Apart and can be purchased on Amazon.com at a reasonable price. Some members of the BU family have already demonstrated that they are students of the religions. Brother Phillips advises that the book represents 30 years of research and 7 years of critical review and he stands ready to defend his thesis.

It is no secret that the BU household has demonstrated a keen interest in the religions or what some people disparagingly refer to as dogmas. It is a fascinating subject and one which is shrouded in mystery, allegories, parables, fables and some theology  Religion has been used through the ages to edify and destroy man’s existence. Of interest to all through the ages has been the cooption of  religion to pit Islam versus Christianity, East versus West by geo-political motivated groups.

For a synopsis of the book the BU family is welcomed to visit Phillips’s blog. We look forward to a fascinating discussion and take the opportunity to wish him every success.

What he has attempted demonstrates courage of conviction, a characteristic in scarce supply.

.

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1,124 responses to “The Bible And The Qur'an, Brothers Kept Apart”

  1. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @ Zoe

    “It is no surpise that Islamism is an outgrowth of fascism and communism…”

    You are pathetic. Still calling the kettle black?

    Well the outgrowth of Christianity is imperialism, capitalism, slavery and racism.

    Did you see how many more African slaves were killed at the hands of racism than jews at the hands of facism?

  2. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Rohan & Not Saved,

    Do you believe religion and belief in the supernatural are unproductive and dangerous, or positive evolutionary traits formed through natural selection?

  3. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    MME

    You always do make a good point. The responses will be interesting.

  4. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    Micro Mock Engineer,
    Good questions.

    Belief in the supernatural is unproductive and dangerous. If there were no such belief, no one could be convinced that the killing of infidels would be rewarded with 72 virgins in the afterlife.

    A more rational stance would be:

    Believe only in things for which there is compelling evidence.

    Given that there is ZERO evidence for an after-life, ZERO evidence for the existence of any of the thousands of Gods we have come to know, and ZERO evidence for the existence of DRAGONS, we can assume that NONE of these things exist.

  5. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    I’ll also add this quote:
    —
    One who can be convinced of irrational things can be convinced to take irrational actions.
    —
    It gets no more dangerous than this. I’m sure you can think of many current and ancient examples of this.

  6. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @rohan

    Like the beheading of a man for saying that the earth is round; LOL!

  7. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    ROK,
    Well there are several such examples.

    When Galileo said that the earth was not the center of the universe, and actually revolved around the sun, the Catholic church condemned this as “false and contrary to Scripture” and he was put under house-arrest for the rest of his life.

    This was in the 1600’s.

    When did the church finally recant and apologize for this?

    1992.

    Oh, and just this year, the pope went to Africa and basically told a continent ravaged by Aids not to use condoms.

    Remember this when folks argue that religion causes no harm.

  8. Nietzche? Avatar
    Nietzche?

    I know the question wasn’t addressed to me but what the hell I gwine throw my 1 cent in:

    There does appear to be evidence that having religious beliefs may be an evolutionary trait. Whether it is positive or not must be assessed in the context of fitness for survival in a given environment. In the very distant hunter gatherer past, having religious beliefs may have been a positive trait. I would argue in today’s environment however religious beliefs are irrational, unproductive and dangerous especially if a believer has his finger on the button to launch a nuclear weapon.

  9. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Allah and the God of the Bible.

    Most people assume that the God of the Bible and Allah of the Quran are one and the same God, just under different names.

    When we seriously compare the attributes of God as found in the Bible with attributes of Allah found in the Quran, it becomes patently obvious that these two are NOT the same God.

    The historical background on the origin and meaning of the Arabian “Allah” clearly reveal that Allah cannot be the God of the biblical Patriarchs, the Jews, or the Christians. Allah is merely a revamped and magnified Arabian moon deity.

    Here are a few of the historic differences that have been pointed out again and again between the God of the Bible and the Allah of the Quran. These points of conflict have been noted in scholarly works for over a thousand years.

    Knowable vs Unknowable.

    1] According to the Bible, God is knowable. Jesus Christ came into this world that we might know God (John. 17:3).

    But in the Quran, Allah is so transcendent and exalted that NO man can ever personally know him.

    Therefore, while in the Bible, man can come into a personal relationship with God, the Allah of the Quran is so distant, so far off, so abstract, that NO one can know him.

    Personal vs Non-personal.

    2] The God of the Bible is spoken of as a personal being, with intellect, emotion, and will.

    This is in contrast to Allah who is NOT to be understood as a person. This would lower him to the level of a man, according to Muslim theology.

    Spiritual vs Non-spiritual.

    3] To the Muslim, the idea that Allah is a person or a spirit is blasphemous, because this would demean the exalted one.

    But, that “God is a spirit” in one of the cornerstones of the biblical nature of God (John 4:24).

    Love Of God vs No Love Of God.

    4] The love of God is the chief attribute of the biblical God, as revealed in such places as John 3:16. God has feelings for His creatures, especially man.

    But, when we turn to the Quran, we do not find the love of Allah presented as his chief attribute. Instead, the transcendence of Allah is his chief attribute.

    Neither does Allah “have feelings” toward man. The love of Allah is foreign to Islamic teachings.

    Active in History vs Non-active.

    5] According to Islamic theology, Allah does NOT personally enter human history, he always deals with the world through his word, prophets and angels,

    How different this is from the God of the Bible, who entered our world, became Incarnate Deity, to bring about man’s salvation.

    Attributes vs No Attributes.

    6] The Quran never tells us in a positive sense what Allah is in terms of his nature or essence. The so-called ‘ninety nine attributes’ of Allah are all negative in form, signifying what Allah is not, but never telling us what he is.

    The Bible, on the other hand gives us numerous accounts of both the postive and negative attributes of God.

    Grace vs Works

    7] The Bible speaks much about the Grace of God in providing a free salvation for all of mankind, through a Saviour, Jesus Christ, who is our intecessor between God and man (I tim. 2:5).

    Yet, in the Quran, there is NO concept of the ‘grace’ of Allah, no saviour.

    When you examine the attributes of Almighty God, who has revealed Himself in the Bible to the Allah who is described in the Quran, there is such a vast difference between the two, it is simply not possible to believe that they are one and the same God.

    What many fail to understand, is that monotheism in and of itself, belief in one God, does NOT tell us anything about the identity of the one God who is to be worshipped. In other words, it is not enough to say there is only One God, if you have the wrong God.

    If someone said, that Ra, Isis, or Osiris was the one true God, this does not mean that Christianity and Egyptians deities are one and the same.

    Someone could have taught that Baal or Molech was the one true God. Or again, the Greeks could have argued that Zeus or Jupiter was the one true living God. But, merely arguing that there is one God does not automatically mean that the one God you choose to worship, happens to be the right one.

    Therefore, in this case, the God of the Bible has clearly revealed Himself in such a way that His nature and His names, cannot be confused with the nature and names of the surrounding pagan deities.

    The cult of the moon god which worshipped Allah was transformed by Muhammad into a monotheistic faith. The obvious problem with this, is that because Muhammad started with a pagan god, it is no surprise that he ended up with a pagan god. As German scholar Johannes Hauri pointed out”

    “Mohammad’s monotheism was just as much a departure from true monotheism, a the polytheistic ideas…Mohammad’s idea of God is out and out deistic.”
    (Islam Unveiled, The True Desert Storm).

  10. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Nietzche?

    That is a good one.

  11. Nietzche? Avatar
    Nietzche?

    Thanks ROK.

    @Zoe, so the author of “Brothers kept apart” is a conman?

    David, common entrance is about one week away and you done fail!! That apostrophe “s” in the title should not be there!!!

  12. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    MME,

    funny you should ask if I “believe”

    I prefer to not simply “believe” something but rather to try to understand.

    belief in the supernatural in itself is not harmful

    or put another way, belief in the supernatural is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition to cause harm to an individual.

    Trouble seems to arise when some of us claim to know the mind of god

    I dont know enough about evolutionary biology to confidently answer the latter part of your question. I am aware this is a subject of much research.

    do you believe the christian bible is the work of a god?

    do you believe the qur’an is the work of a god? same god?

  13. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Rohan,

    “Given that there is ZERO evidence…. We can assume that NONE of these things exist”.

    Are you suggesting that the absence of evidence is evidence of absence? This does not sound rational to me.

    I do not agree that belief in the supernatural is unproductive and dangerous. Our environment selects traits and behaviours that confer reproductive advantage and evolutionary success. As a species, if belief in the supernatural was destructive this trait would have been ‘selected’ against.

    Science and reason are superior to religion when it comes to questions that can be answered empirically. But there are some questions that cannot be answered empirically, for example, was the universe created? It is natural for a conscious species to contemplate this question (after all, we are doing it right now on BU). It is also part of our species’ natural instinct to try to close the gap between the way things are (imperfect and unjust) and the way we would like them to be (perfect and just).

    Here is another quote to add to your collection Rohan 🙂

    “Without the ultrarational hopes and passions of religion no society will ever have the courage to conquer despair and attempt the impossible; for the vision of a just society is an impossible one, which can only be approximated by those who do not regard it as impossible.” – Reinhold Niebuhr

  14. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Nietzche?

    Hit the submit button too fast but MME also spoke about the “positive evolutionary traits formed through natural selection?”

    This is an important question and to my mind relates to what we call, the art of the possible. Olympic records, for example are still being broken. Mohammed Ali brought a new art to boxing.

    Many first become commonplace after that, we are evolving with great influence from the mind; the art of the possible; we say that necessity is the mother of invention but this really reflects the fact that when mankind is forced to think, miracles happen.

  15. confused Avatar
    confused

    Nietzche et al
    Please cite the evidence or source that there is evidence that having religious beliefs may be an evolutionary trait. How can religion and belief be positive evolutionary traits formed through natural selection?

    Explain the molecular and cellular biology that would cause having religious belief to become an evolutionary trait- either positive or negative.

  16. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    **
    Are you suggesting that the absence of evidence is evidence of absence? This does not sound rational to me.
    **
    MME here is what I’m saying: Say you have two competing hypotheses.

    A) Santa Claus holds the sun up in the sky by his magic beard.

    B) The sun is held up in the sky due to gravitational forces and its orbit around the center of our solar system.

    For hypothesis A there is absolutely zero evidence but ancient scribblings about Santa Claus’ magic beard and its holy whiteness.

    For hypothesis B there is MOUNTAINS of overwhelming testable evidence of every sort. Video, pictures, charts, you name it.

    With a lack of evidence (and the outward stupidity of the claim), the Santa Claus theory would be laughed off the table.

    Sure, a lack of evidence for the Santa Claus theory, doesn’t mean it’s not viable, but thinking people would dismiss it until evidence is provided.

    So, think!

  17. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    MME wrote:

    “It is also part of our species’ natural instinct to try to close the gap between the way things are (imperfect and unjust) and the way we would like them to be (perfect and just).”

    ———————-

    so true !

    look at the early teachings attributed to jesus (not quite the same as much of the churches today) and you can see the appeal of the religion.

    remember the socio-economic class of the early followers.

  18. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    MME wrote:
    As a species, if belief in the supernatural was destructive this trait would have been ‘selected’ against.
    *****
    Sorry, not true. There is an exhaustive list of tested cognitive biases that have evolved in the human brain. Biases, that while they often lead to inaccurate conclusions, they help us make decisions faster or help us to cope with the world around us.

    These traits were not “selected against” even though they can be obviously harmful but helped in another way.

    Here are a few that may apply to religious belief:

    Bandwagon effect — the tendency to do (or believe) things because many other people do (or believe) the same

    Conservatism bias — the tendency to ignore the consequence of new evidence.

    Mere exposure effect — the tendency for people to express undue liking for things merely because they are familiar with them.

    Wishful thinking — the formation of beliefs and the making of decisions according to what is pleasing to imagine instead of by appeal to evidence or rationality.

    And, the list goes on…..

  19. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Confused,

    A good place to start might be the “Journal of Cognition and Culture” or the “Journal of Artificial Societies and Social Simulation”. You can also find several scientific papers online e.g. Google “Is Religion an Evolutionary Adaptation” or “Ritual, Emotion, and Sacred Symbols: The Evolution of Religion as an Adaptive Complex”.

  20. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    MME wrote:

    “But there are some questions that cannot be answered empirically, for example, was the universe created? It is natural for a conscious species to contemplate this question”

    ——————

    Again true !

    But man has often (always?) attempted to answer the questions that he does not understand with the supernatural

    Man has a tremendous propensity to invent gods (even a believer must admit to invented gods, everyone does not believe in hundreds of gods) and possibly this is driven by his need for answers to the questions he contemplates.

    Man has improved his knowledge of the natural world and slowly but slowly we have replaced numerous supernatural explanations with natural ones.

    You are probably right that there may be some questions that we cannot answer but this must surely because we cant find the evidence.

    The origin of life on earth is notoriously difficult because the evidence is so hard to find. It has largely been destroyed.

    In any case, even if there are some questions that do not have a naturalistic explanation (something I personally doubt), it seems unwise to inject the supernatural to everything we cannot explain (particularly given the track record of this strategy).

    It seems to me to offer the weakest solution to the unanswered question.

    Having said all of that, the problem never seems to be simply proposing a supernatural explanation, but rather when we make the gigantic leap to say we know the mind of the god(s) and thus do as we say, there is no room for contrary evidence.

  21. confused Avatar
    confused

    MME
    and you are saying that these “scientific” articles will explain the molecular and cellular biology that these religious traits are inherited>

    so you are saying that there are genes for religious traits?

  22. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    But there are some questions that cannot be answered empirically, for example, was the universe created?
    ***
    Again, False. Lol, sorry “Not Saved”.

    There are only questions that we have not answered empirically yet. And for those questions for which there are gaps, there is no reason to fill those gaps with Magical bearded Father figures. That was how it was done in the past with things like “invisible chariots pulling the sun across the sky”. Since those ages we’ve figured a lot of things out, and we’ll continue working on them.

    Continue to fill the gaps with God all you want xtians. The rest of us will continue to work on the answers that we haven’t figured out.

    Yet.

  23. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Rohan,

    I did not say they (the questions) could not be answered in principle, more precisely because the evidence we need may not exist any more.

    In any case, we agree filling unanswered questions with supernatural ones is no explanation at all.

  24. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    Not Saved,
    Just re-read your last post. Great points.

  25. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    Not saved,
    Yup, I realized we were saying the same thing.

  26. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Rohan,

    Your concluding statement in your post of 12:38 pm i.e. “Given that there is ZERO evidence… …we can assume that NONE of these things exist” was irrational and unscientific, don’t you agree?

    In response to your post at 3:22 pm, my belief that a supreme being designed and created this universe and all the laws/forces therein, in no way conflicts with the scientific discovery of nature’s laws. From a personal perspective, my belief in the Creator has in no way hampered my rigorous pursuit of scientific discovery. Incidentally, that gravitational law to which you refer was introduced by a scientist who had very strong beliefs in the supernatural.

    You begin your last post with the statement “Sorry. Not true”. Surely you mean you don’t believe it to be true, for there is ongoing debate on this issue in the scientific community. Every cognitive bias you have listed serves (or served) a very important purpose without which our species would have been either less successful or unsuccessful. If, in the balance, these were destructive traits (i.e. harmful to our survival as a species) they would have been ‘selected’ against.

  27. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    Thought I would repost this:

    MME here is what I’m saying: Say you have two competing hypotheses.

    A) Santa Claus holds the sun up in the sky by his magic beard.

    B) The sun is held up in the sky due to gravitational forces and its orbit around the center of our solar system.

    For hypothesis A there is absolutely zero evidence but ancient scribblings about Santa Claus’ magic beard and its holy whiteness.

    For hypothesis B there is MOUNTAINS of overwhelming testable evidence of every sort. Video, pictures, charts, you name it.

    With a lack of evidence (and the outward stupidity of the claim), the Santa Claus theory would be laughed off the table.

    Sure, a lack of evidence for the Santa Claus theory, doesn’t mean it’s not viable, but thinking people would dismiss it until evidence is provided.

  28. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @Zoe

    Where you really come from? You said:

    “Therefore, while in the Bible, man can come into a personal relationship with God, the Allah of the Quran is so distant, so far off, so abstract, that NO one can know him…”

    Christian profess to have a personal relationship with Christ, not God. God is as far removed from Christians as Muslims are from Allah. Mohammed and Christ are the same in principle.

    Again you said: “The God of the Bible is spoken of as a personal being, with intellect, emotion, and will. This is in contrast to Allah who is NOT to be understood as a person. This would lower him to the level of a man, according to Muslim theology.”

    Did not Christ profess to be the embodiment of God? This is the problem that I have with Christianity, you think that God is as a man? You cannot recognise that a man could not have made this world but this world made man. How can the Creator be a man, when Christianity itself teaches that god is so vast and diverse as not to be understood or imagined by man? Yet you want to scale the Creator down to a man…

    but if you talking about you God, I will agree that he had the same emotions, etc. as man and was similarly disposed mentally, but of a different technology. You only have to check the story of the Golden Calf where Moses the man rebuked your God and caused your god to “repent”… Shameful. A God? The Creator of this earth and universe had to struggle with a Pharaoh to let his people go?

    The story of Lot, when those angels had to smite the men with blindness in order to escape? It shows you they were flesh and blood and had no wings and could not go through walls of evaporate into thin air; as you say, appear and disappear. Had not for their superior technology, their asses would have been grasses.

    Where you people really come from though? You trying to impose your imagination here or what? And in doing so you trying to re-define terms? If you are omniscient it should not take more than 24 hrs for you to know that a golden calf was built; you should have know when it was in the planning stages.

    You can’t claim to be omnipotent and then struggle against a Pharaoh?? What you really talking about?

    Furthermore, why your god claim to make everything and then choosing favourites? The Chosen people?

  29. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    Your concluding statement in your post of 12:38 pm i.e. “Given that there is ZERO evidence… …we can assume that NONE of these things exist” was irrational and unscientific, don’t you agree?
    ***
    I do not agree.
    As a principle:

    Things for which there is no evidence can be dismissed until evidence is found. Sure you can keep looking for evidence, but it borders on stupidity to base your entire life on a belief-system with zero basis but the scribblings of folks claiming faith in a magical bearded father figure.

    Wouldn’t you agree?

  30. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    Furthermore, why your god claim to make everything and then choosing favourites? The Chosen people?
    ***
    Rok, great point! A loving, fair God, who has made all humans, chose a race of those humans as his favorite people, setting the stage for years of war, suffering? This would be the first case of mass discrimination.

    Makes no sense.

    Unless, ofcourse, we acknowledge the interesting coincidence that those who wrote the bible and created God, just happen to be the ones who God loves more!

    It’s one never-ending bout of hilarity.

  31. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Confused,

    There are some in the scientific community that believe there is a genetic predisposition to religion. The earliest scientific account I have come across is in 70’s from the founder of sociobiology Edward Wilson. More recently, geneticist Dean Hammer has put forward similar theories, identifying the gene VMAT2 as the ‘suspect’. The evidence for genetic bias is not very strong, and to me unconvincing. I believe the strongest evidence can be found in the field of behavioural ecology (for example research on comparisons between social organisation and ecology in species). I cannot take a dogmatic position, as Rohan has done, but there is strong evidence that natural selection will produce behaviours which are ‘optimal’ in evolutionary time.

  32. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “Wouldn’t you agree?”

    No Rohan I don’t agree. The fact that there is ZERO evidence for parallel universes and string theory does not stop me from relentlessly pursuing the search for evidence that might validate these in the future. I will not say that parallel universes do not exist simply because there is no evidence. A rational person must at least accept that it is a possibility until we find a better theory or evidence to the contrary.

    Rohan… you are beginning to sound even more fundamentalist than Zoe.

  33. David Avatar
    David

    @Rohan

    A Google of Wikipedia supports a basis for using the apostrophe in the word Qur’an:

    Qur’an
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia    

    This article contains Arabic text, written from right to left in a cursive style with some letters joined. Without proper rendering support, you may see unjoined Arabic letters written left-to-right, instead of right-to-left or other symbols instead of Arabic script.

    The holy book of Islam, the Qur’an

    The Qur’an[1] (Arabic: القرآن‎al-qur’ān, literally “the recitation”; also sometimes transliterated as Quran, Qur’ān, Koran, Alcoran or Al-Qur’ān) is the central religious text of Islam. Muslims believe the Qur’an to be the book of divine guidance and direction for mankind, and consider the original Arabic text to be the final revelation of God.[2][3][4][5]

    Islam holds that the Qur’an was revealed to Muhammad by the angel Jibrīl (Gabriel) from 610 CE to his death in 632 CE.[2][6][7] Followers of Islam further believe that the Qur’an was written down by Muhammad’s companions while he was alive, although the prime method of transmission was oral. It is maintained that in 633 CE, the written text was compiled, and in 653 CE it was standardized, distributed in the Islamic empire and produced in large numbers.[8] The present form of the Qur’an is regarded as God’s revelation to Muhammad by Muslim believers. Academic scholars often consider it the original version authored or dictated by Muhammad.[9] Muslim tradition agrees that it was fixed in writing shortly after Muhammad’s death by order of Umar and Abu Bakr.[10]

  34. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    MME,
    Sorry my position isn’t dogmatic. I do not deny that there is an argument for a genetic disposition to religion. As a matter of facts I posted a list of cognitive biases that would even support this.

    Cognitive biases i.e Cognitive Errors!

    My point is that your argument that “if this disposition was destructive it would have been selected against” is not a sound claim since there are a list of evolutionary mental dispositions that are both A) destructive and B) were NOT selected against.

  35. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    MME wrote:
    The fact that there is ZERO evidence for parallel universes and string theory does not stop me from relentlessly pursuing the search for evidence that might validate these in the future.
    ***
    I agree with this MME. Note how it works:

    1) A relentless pursuit for evidence
    2) Gathering and testing the evidence
    3) Using the evidence as a basis of your belief structure.

    Here’s how it works if you’re to believe in the magic bearded Santa Claus:
    1) …
    2)…
    3) Read the story and believe.

  36. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    MME,

    I understand you believe there is a creator.

    I too would not say something does not exist because there is no evidence be it parallel universes or supernatural gods.

    However, the gods of the various books make many very specific claims which can be evaluated and one can reasonably come to the conclusion that the god(s) so described, based on the evidence, do not exist.

    Could there be some other kind of creator god? possibly?

    But to be clear I dont find this explanation particularly appealing because it is not a parsimonious one and so I dont “believe it”.

    Suggesting the incredibly complex universe is the product of an even more complex creator is not parsimonious. It could be correct but its counter intuitive, at least for me anyway.

    But back to my question to you, you believe in a creator, but is it the creator of the christian faith?

    do you claim to know the mind of this creator god?

  37. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    MME you seem to be avoiding this, so I’ll post it again.

    You either
    1) Have some evidence of the existence of the invisible bearded Santa Claus God that no one else has
    2) Have no evidence at all but still believe.

    So which is it?

    Say you have two competing hypotheses.

    A) Santa Claus holds the sun up in the sky by his magic beard.

    B) The sun is held up in the sky due to gravitational forces and its orbit around the center of our solar system.

    For hypothesis A there is absolutely zero evidence but ancient scribblings about Santa Claus’ magic beard and its holy whiteness.

    For hypothesis B there is MOUNTAINS of overwhelming testable evidence of every sort. Video, pictures, charts, you name it.

    With a lack of evidence (and the outward stupidity of the claim), the Santa Claus theory would be laughed off the table.

    Sure, a lack of evidence for the Santa Claus theory, doesn’t mean it’s not viable, but thinking people would dismiss it until evidence is provided.

  38. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Lest you pounce on me, I understand one’s intuition can mislead, but in the absence of evidence either way, its all I have.

    Hence I make no claims to a supernatural creator.

  39. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Rohan… cognitive biases produce net gains. They are not destructive in the evolutionary sense, or they would have been ‘selected’ against. They are evolved mental behaviour. Belief in a supernatural being is also evolved mental behaviour… and similarly, had it been destructive it would have been ‘selected’ against.

  40. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    MME,

    The overwhelming evidence of such propensity of man to believe in gods is certainly strong evidence that it may be an evolutionary advantage.

    Certainly something worthy of the ongoing research.

    Evolutionary advantage would say nothing about the truth of such gods since the advantage is apparently not discriminatory to any one god.

  41. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Rohan,

    You have now repeated yourself in that post at 5:25 pm three times. You like you is Zoe evil twin yuh. LOL

    I answered that in the second paragraph of my 4:16 pm post. ROFL

  42. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Not Saved… even though I disagree with you, you mekkin sense to me. Wha really going on wid Rohan doh? He like he is a born again scientist. 🙂

  43. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    MME and Not saved, I agree with this to a degree:

    I too would not say something does not exist because there is no evidence be it parallel universes or supernatural gods.
    ***
    But we can talk in probabilities if you like.

    Claim:
    There is no evidence of a pink and blue polkadot Lion that can read minds living in Madagascar. None whatsoever.

    Given what we know about the world, we can say that the possibility of such a mind-reading pink and blue lion is so small, we can dismiss it as being non-existent. This is how our world deals with issues such as this.

    Now if I were to say, “well that doesn’t mean one doesn’t exist” for all intents and purposes I would be correct. But as a practical matter I wouldn’t be surprised if you guys told me I needed serious mental help.

    But the religious even take this one step further: Not only do they claim the mind-reading polkadot lion for which we have no evidence exists, they then use their invisible Lion friend to dictate their entire worldview.

    Call me crazy….

  44. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Rohan,

    1) A relentless pursuit for evidence
    2) Gathering and testing the evidence
    3) Using the evidence as a basis of your belief structure.

    These are also the steps Newton took in developing the theories of motion and the gravitational law you reference in your Option B. How did his strong belief in a supernatural being influence his scientific work? Indeed, like many other scientists throughout the ages, his relentless search for answers were rooted in a desire to understand God’s design.

    Lets see what the author of your Option B had to say:

    “Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done. This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent Being… This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all; and on account of his dominion he is wont to be called ‘Lord God’ or ‘Universal Ruler’… The Supreme God is a Being eternal, infinite, [and] absolutely perfect. Opposition to godliness is atheism in profession and idolatry in practice. Atheism is so senseless and odious to mankind that it never had many professors.”

    I agree with Newton on that score.

  45. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    MME,

    Thanks !

    It is no crime to have different opinions but we should ALL at least try to “make sense”

  46. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    MME, you’re obviously a smart person. I think, rather than my arguments not making sense, I think they are not making you comfortable. 🙂

    If you re-read the posts, you will see that there is little daylight between my arguments and Not Saved’s.

    I just have a lot less patience.

    Seriously, this conversation really boils down to me saying, “hey, you’ve been lied to, Santa claus doesn’t exist”, and you saying, “whatever, look at those gifts under my tree, who else could have bought me those?”

  47. victor Avatar
    victor

    ROK, As I said it is oId testament detaiIs, not new that have been verified. e.g waIIs of Jericho, SoIomon’s paIace – which is in fact just a smaII settIement. GraiIs and covenants are exampIes of ideas and incidents which have been magnified and mysticised. The MiddIe East is a smaII area and the Judeans were a smaII tribe but they wrote everything down, putting great store by the “word” and it’s power of coherence as the tribe moved voIuntariIy or invoIuntariIy around their worId. MeanwhiIe there’s pIenty of contemporaneous evidence of their movements so archeoIogists are progressiveIy pinpointing the tribe’s progress. The oId testament has pIenty of exaggeration but is a fairIy accurate picture of their movements, Ieaving out ideas Iike MethuseIa’s age, etc. and the fact that the time scaIe is exaggerated. As far as Jesus is concerned, there is no info. or evidence, as I said. I agree with you and that’s why the issue of the cross etc. is irreIevant. The fact that is strange is that the story is so convincing to so many! Why? In the case of Noah, many variations of the story exist in BabyIonian and Sumerian mythoIogy. It’s generaIIy agreed there was a Iot of fIooding after the Iast ice age ended 10,000 years ago as water was reIeased when gIaciers retreated due to cIimate change over severaI miIIenia, evaporation causing bouts of massive rainfaII. Someone buiIt a boat, saving peopIe and Iivestock from a fIood and the incident became a metaphor for survivaI, carried through generations of various beIief systems. The concept of ignoring God’s Iaws, triaI, retribution and saIvation by obeying God’s Iaws is typicaI of Judaism viz pIagues etc.

  48. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    LOL Rohan… good one.

    But doesn’t the conversation really boil down to me asking “who put those presents under the tree?” and you responding “no one… I just heard a Big Bang and when I looked around they were there”? 🙂

    Wouldn’t a more reasonable response be “I don’t know” if you don’t know, or if you think you know, maybe a sentence beginning with “I believe…”?

    But an even more profound question, why does victor use capital I’s instead of common l’s in his posts? Did he spill coffee on his keyboard? 🙂

  49. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    …maybe that pink and blue polkadot Lion from Madagascar stole the “L” from victor’s keyboard.

  50. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    LOL @ Victor’s common i’s, never noticed.

    MME,
    Sure, I think a reasonable response would be “I don’t know”. Just like a reasonable response to the blue-polkadot-mind-reading lion could be “I don’t know”.

    But if we’re honest with ourselves, the further along you get on the absurdity spectrum, the more one could change that “I don’t know” to “I seriously doubt it” to “Only a crazy person would believe that!”

    The question then becomes, “Where does the following lie on the absurdity spectrum?

    “There is a creature in the sky that watches everything you do, can read everyone’s mind, has a set of rules that you must follow, and if you don’t follow them, will ressurrect you when you die just to set you on fire for all eternity…oh and he loves you!”

    You already know where I think this lies on the absurdity spectrum 😉

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