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The Bible And The Qur'an, Brothers Kept Apart

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brotherskeptapartFellow blogger Weighed in the Balance has undertaken the ambitious and highly risky task of writing a book which as he terms it “is a comparative analysis of the Bible and the Qur’an, and it assumes that both books are correct.  If God is the principal author of each book, as Christians and Muslims claim, then a comparative analysis should reveal harmony between the principal teachings of both.  This is what I have found.  Hence, Christians and Muslims have been kept apart by their religious leaders who have taught their adherents that God has rejected the other group.” The topic matter was thought to be so contentious that he originally penned his book using a pseudonym.

Phillip’s book is titled Brothers Kept Apart and can be purchased on Amazon.com at a reasonable price. Some members of the BU family have already demonstrated that they are students of the religions. Brother Phillips advises that the book represents 30 years of research and 7 years of critical review and he stands ready to defend his thesis.

It is no secret that the BU household has demonstrated a keen interest in the religions or what some people disparagingly refer to as dogmas. It is a fascinating subject and one which is shrouded in mystery, allegories, parables, fables and some theology  Religion has been used through the ages to edify and destroy man’s existence. Of interest to all through the ages has been the cooption of  religion to pit Islam versus Christianity, East versus West by geo-political motivated groups.

For a synopsis of the book the BU family is welcomed to visit Phillips’s blog. We look forward to a fascinating discussion and take the opportunity to wish him every success.

What he has attempted demonstrates courage of conviction, a characteristic in scarce supply.

.

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1,124 responses to “The Bible And The Qur'an, Brothers Kept Apart”

  1. Grenville Avatar
    Grenville

    Dear Not Saved:

    It is not arrogance. Please note that I had explained that a debate on the existence of God should be for another thread. However, since you insist. Please be advised that it is very difficult for someone to convince you that God is read and that He loves you. Jesus did many miracles, including raising Lazarus from the dead, yet there were some who saw these miracles and still refused to believe Him.

    Knowing God is something that you have to experience for yourself. It is analogous to trying to prove the existence of colour to those who have spent their entire lives with their eyes shut. All I can do is to explain to you that I have opened my eyes, and that colour is wonderful. You can spend your life debating the matter or you can simply open your eyes and be convinced immediately. God Himself asked you to try Him. Others have put it this way: “O taste and see that the Lord is good.”

    Some, because of their excitement with colour, may have come across as offensive or pushy as they tried to encourage all with whom they came into contact to experience what they had experienced. Let me suggest that their motives were honourable. They have simply opened their eyes, and are perhaps kicking themselves that they did not do so earlier, and do not want others to delay as they had.

    I can only encourage you, and guarantee that you will see colour if you would but open your eyes. What is there to lose? If you do not see colour, then you are free to simply close them once again. You do not have to pay a fee, or walk 1,000 km, or climb Mt Everest, you just have to open your eyes. How simple is that?

    You must be aware that even the physically blind, who have never seen color, and cannot conceptualize nor sense it, still believe that it exists. What excuse will you give God at the end of the age?

    Regards,
    Grenville

  2. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Grenville writes :

    ‘You can spend your life debating the matter or you can simply open your eyes and be convinced immediately.”

    There is that patronising attitude again…

    By the way, which god should I see? yours right?

  3. Grenville Avatar
    Grenville

    Hi MME:

    Thank you for your on-topic comment. I trust that you read The Audacity of Hope article which explained the challenges of properly interpreting the Qur’an.

    Mohammed was reacting to the teaching of the time of gods compounding through sexual intercourse. The Bible also rejects this.

    Regards,
    Grenville

  4. Nietzche? Avatar
    Nietzche?

    Grenville wrote “they also claim that we can cultivate a personal relationship with this Creator. I am still waiting for someone to provide a rational reason for rejecting such an offer.”

    Maybe there is no primary evidence that meets even the lowest standard of modern scientific inquiry that such an offer exists. Is there evidence that Zeus (or whoever) throws (or doesn’t throw) thunderbolts ?

    I would expect any religions/philosophies that have arisen in the same geographical region, among people of close interaction, to have many similarities. It is the traditions that build up over time that are important in distinguishing the viewpoints. The religious traditions are the issue of importance. To distance oneself from the traditions is the response of either a conman or a puerile intellect.

  5. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Grenville writes :

    “The point of Jesus’ example is to show that for some people, no amount of evidence is sufficient.”

    Thats right.

    And no amount of “evidence” from “scripture” will convince you of the existence of any god(s) other than your own.

  6. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Here are some excerpts from world hunger.org that I posted on an earlier thread….

    “No one really knows how many people are malnourished. The statistic most frequently cited is that of the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization, which measures ‘undernutrition’. The most recent estimate (2006) of the FAO says that 854 million people worldwide are undernourished. This is 12.6 percent of the estimated world population of 6.6 billion.”

    “Children are the most visible victims of undernutrition. Children who are poorly nourished suffer up to 160 days of illness each year. Poor nutrition plays a role in at least half of the 10.9 million child deaths each year–five million deaths.”

    “Under-nutrition among pregnant women in developing countries leads to 1 out of 6 infants born with low birth weight. This is not only a risk factor for neonatal deaths, but also causes learning disabilities, mental, retardation, poor health, blindness and premature death.”

    some design

    some designer

    eye opening anyone?

  7. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Grenville writes :

    “Jesus did many miracles, including raising Lazarus from the dead”

    Yipee !

    What about the things jesus did not do.

    Think about that.

    Heal the sick did he?, but why not eradicate disease? a disease? any disease? hunger?

    Condemn slavery? err no.

    Teach about anti biotics? even crude ones would have saved lives, made life less miserable.

    You keeping telling me of all the really exciting incredible things he did, I think I have a big list of what he did not do.

  8. Grenville Avatar
    Grenville

    Hi Not Saved:

    You are introducing additional factors which I would happily discuss with you on another thread, but can we get back on-topic and keep this one for the Bible and the Qur’an?

    Regards,
    Grenville

  9. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    which bible?

  10. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Grenville

    “ROC, you have managed to dismiss the most respected Roman historian. I only provided that evidence after directing you to all of the physical and documented evidence in the British Museum.”

    Now why would I want to see anything in the British Museum when you can’t even establish the fact that there was indeed a Christ?

    How could a man about whom so little is known could be held up as the most respected Roman historian. Too much of his work is missing. Wunna was able to slip in Josephus but somehow, I think wunna get caught red handed and that is why nearly all of Tacitus (the Traitor) work is missing. Wunna could not get them back in circulation so they had to stay buried.

    Scream and come again!

  11. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Grenville

    You obviously think that this thing is about a lot of information but it is not. You creeping from one book and the Christians using the other as a crutch and there is nothing more.

    You better get to Ancient Egypt and the Sumerians before them. All of it comes from there. No need for any further threads as seen with the bible and christians on this Blog; each thread was really a continuation of the other and went down virtually the same way. We don’t need to make the same mistake with you.

  12. tikkun olam Avatar
    tikkun olam

    Sadly many posters want to dispute the theory that religions on this planet can try and achieve reconciliation. Which could tend to make for a very defensive and non-productive discussion.

    Why decry? Are we so insecure that we do not wish others to be productive?

    After the author of the book and thread I would be honoured to participate in trying to accomplish peace and acceptance with anyone who cares to.

  13. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Grenville, you see how the scoffing experts, Rok, Not Saved et al, simply cannot engage in any meaningful discussion without throwing in ‘Strawmen’ and Redherrings’ to distract from the central theme of this exercise!

    Getting back to the central focus of this blog.

    The Key to Islam:

    It is very difficult for those in Western culture to comprehend and understand that Islam is a form of ‘Cultural Imperialism, in which the religion and culture of 7th century Arabia are raised to divine law.

    Islam is not a personal religious preference in Islamic societies, as there is no secular realm in Islamic countries.

    Islam is the “deification” of 7th century Arabian culture; in a very real sense, Islam is more cultural than it is religious; this is why all the textbooks and the encyclopedias of Islam begin with the historical context of Muhammad and the importance of 7th century Arabian culture.

    Actually, what disturbs Middle East scholars is that Arabs have taken 7th Century Arabian culture, and turned it into a religion.

    No Secular Realm.

    To the Muslim, there is no ‘secular’ realm, where he is free from Islam. To the devout Muslim, Islam is all of life; there is no ‘separation’ of Mosque and State, that compares to the separation of church and state, in western culture.

    Muhammad took the Arab culture around him with all of its secular and sacred custims and made it into the religion of Islam.

    Arab Racism.

    Therefore, Islam is fueled by a subtle form of racism in which 7th century Arabian culture in its political expressions, family affairs, dietary laws, clothing, religious rites, languages, etc., are imposed on all other cultures.

    The Cult of the Moon-God.

    Muhammad did not invent the concept of ‘Allah’ nor was it revealed for the first time in the Quran.

    A well known Middle Eastern scholar, H. Gibb, pointed out that the reason that Muhammad never had to explain who ‘Allah’ was in the Quran was that his listeners had already heard about Allah long before Muhammad was ever born.

    Dr. Arthur Jeffery, who was one of the foremost Western Islamic scholars in modern times and Professor of Islamic and Middle Eastern Studies at Columbia University, points out that,

    “The name Allah, as the Quran itseld is witness, was well known in pre-Islamic Arabia. Indeed, both it and its feminine form ‘Allat’ are found not infrequently among the theophorous names in inscriptions from North Africa.”

    The word ‘Allah’ comes from a compound Arabic word, ‘al-ilah.’ the ‘al’ is the definite article ‘the’ and the word ‘ilah’ is an Arabic word for “god.” It is NOT a foriegn word. It was not even the Syriac word for god. It is pure Arabic. Neither is ‘Allah’ a Hebrew or Greek word for God as found in the Bible. Allah is an Arabic term used in reference to an Arabian deity.

    Hastings Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics states:

    “Allah is a proper name, applicable only to their (i.e., Arab) peculiar god.”

    According to the Encyclopedia of Religion:

    “Allah is a pre-Islamic name…corresponding to the Babylonian Bel.”

    Due to past experiences with recalcitrant students who found it hard to believe that “Allah” was a pagan name for a peculiar pagan Arabian deity in pre-Islamic times, the following citations are given.

    “Allah is found…in Arabic inscriptions prior to Islam.” (Ency Britannica).

    “The arabs, before the time of Mohammad, accepted and worshipped, after a fashion, a supreme god callad Allah.” ( The Encyclopedia of Islam, ed. Houtsma).

    “Allah was known to the pre-Islamic Arabs; he was one of the Meccan deities.” (Ency of Islam, ed, Gibb).

    “The name Allah goes back before Muhammad.” (Ency. of World Mythology And Legend).

    “The origin of this (Allah) goes back to pre-Muslim times. Allah is not a common name meaning “God” (or a ‘god’), and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity. ( Ency Of Religion and Ethics).

    Caesar Farah in his book on Islam concludes his discussion of the pre-Islamic meaning of Allah by saying:

    “There is no reason, therefore, to accept the idea that Allah passed to the Muslims from the Christians and Jews.”

    According to Middle East scholar E.M. Wherry, whose translation of the Quran is still used today, in pre-Islamic times, Allah-worship, as well as Baal-worship, were both astral religions in that they involved the worship of the sun, moon and the stars.

    Astral Religions.

    In Arabia, the sun god was viewed as a female goddess and the moon as the male god. As has been pointed out by many scholars such as Alfred Guilluame, the moon god was called by various names, one of which was Allah.

    The name Allah was used as the personal name of the moon god versus other titles that could be given to him.

    Allah, the moon god, was married to the sun-goddess. Together they produced three goddesses who were called “the daughters of Allah.” These three goddesses were called ‘Al-Lat’ ‘Al-Uzza’ and ‘ManatThe ‘daughters of Allah, along with Allah and the sun-goddesses were viewed as being at the top of the pantheon of Arabian deities. Along with Allah, however, they worshipped a host of lesser gods and ‘daughters’ of Allah.
    (Islam Unveiled, The True Desert Storm).

    Certainly sound strickingly similar to the paganistic gods of the ancient Egyptians and Canaanite religions!

  14. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Grenville,

    Let me get to the bottom line with you. I believe that a Creator made me and every living creature and thing on this earth, but that Creator is also an intrinsic part of me. To make it clearer, I am but a minute part of the manifestation of the Creator.

    That is quite different from saying that my father and mother made me, which I can also say. Now let us take a scientist who alters the DNA of a cow or produces a clone, can you say that the scientist made something?

    The most you can say is that the scientist juggled the DNA, tampered with or altered the design. The other thing of note is that the scientist has to work with the tools and materials given by the Creator.

    If we say that matter cannot be created or destroyed, all the above has to be true. I think that is a more reasonable position or even belief.

    There is no difference between the Creator and the Creation. Your God is said to have created man from the dust of the earth and then created Eve from the rib of the man; using materials given by the Creator.

    The question of making the heavens does not hold water considering the calculated age of the earth and the time-line cited for the beginning of the world by your God.

    Next thing you have to do is decide whether of not your god wrote the scriptures, or men did. I sincerely believe that they were by your God who made up the story based on the Ancient writings but doctored them to suit Himself and carefully placed them in a way that they would be found by man after lay wasting Egypt in an attempt to destroy knowledge and plunge mankind into the dark.

    Then He used the Christians to destroy more knowledge and plunge man further down into darkness, so much so that a man got his head cut off for saying that the earth is round, when in truth and fact, the Ancients knew the Earth was round; such is the ignorance of Christianity.

    Burning witches at the stake; another ignoramus, and then set up people like you, GP and Zoe to continue spreading the ignorance in the face of reality and the compelling evidence that nothing in the bible ever happened.

    There is no way that the story of Christ, if it happened, would have been absent from the historical record of the Romans. Somewhere it would have been documented: the trial of jesus; the crucifixion; the resurrection; the parting of the red sea; the plagues of Egypt; Joseph in Pharaoh’s Court; Moses in Pharaoh’s court; the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah; etc., etc.

    You are telling me that these major events slipped all the historians, and it comes down to a mention of a word or two for you to place your whole belief on a lie.

    I state it again, The Creator need not walk about saying, I am the Creator and worship me, because the Creator would obviously have created what was in the control of the Creator to Create. What then would be the point?

    It would be more logical to believe that through the Creation the Creator is trying to get to a destination and will get there as the Creation grows and evolves. The will of the Creator WILL be done, whether you are conscious of it or not.

    Everything is therefore a manisfestation of the Creator, as we say, naturally designed. All considered, it would be very illogical for anyone that is a manifestion of the Creation to claim that he/she/it is the Creator of the entire Creation.

    Therefore Sir, I start with the premise that any person, creature or thing that claims to be the Creator is a charlatan and whatever HE puts forward as evidence of this, puts forward lies and at best, half truths; making it all a lie.

    You think you strong enough to deal with that? All you have to do is point me to any of the evidence and I will humbly submit. Waste of time asking me to believe what is not so obvious.

  15. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @Zoe

    “It is very difficult for those in Western culture to comprehend and understand that Islam is a form of ‘Cultural Imperialism…”

    Yes Zoe, I can discuss the “isms” too. You as a kettle calling the pot black? What greater imperialism can be found than in Christianity? It teaches the people to get rid of their riches; their money, which is gobbled up by an elite few.

    The Muslims on the other hand, teaches self reliance although, there is a focus on supporting the community and pooling wealth. Not so with the Christians and that is what makes you slaves in the highest order.

    You are therefore easy prey for the capitalists and moreso the imperialists. They dazzle you with the glitter and the glamour and you fall in hook, line and sinker. They use you to gather wealth and then they do what they will with it; keep dazzling you with it. They can go to the stars.

    They give out pieces of paper with a value and got you worshiping it as the river of life. They make you work, plough your ground and then hustle it to market; take all your tangible wealth for these pieces of paper falselessly made valuable. Without it you don’t eat. A man can starve to death in Barbados, if he don’t have anybody… but if he becomes shameless he will eat out of the garbage; of course; as the Creator deems fit.

  16. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @Zoe

    There is good reason why the congregations are referred to as the FLOCK.

  17. Nietzsche? Avatar
    Nietzsche?

    Zoe

    what is the central focus of this blog? I suggest that this central focus is that there is common ground between Islam and Christianity. Your posts seek to refute this assertion. More pointedly you imply that the authorship of the Bible and Koran cannot be the same.

    However the author of “Brothers kept apart” claiming 30 years of research infers a proposed dualism suggesting that Islam and Christianity are two sides of the same coin! Furthermore he ignores the religious traditions in attempting to whitewash the actions of believers.

    I hypothesize that this book is the work of either a conman or a puerile intellect.
    Your opinion of your fellow Christian Grenville is thus solicited as to which he is.

  18. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    tikkun olam

    “Sadly many posters want to dispute the theory that religions on this planet can try and achieve reconciliation.”

    The design is to divide and rule; what reconciliation what? The best mechanisms for keeping the population down is massacring people through waging war and bio-warfare, which we have seen launched with efficiency by the imperialists; Palestine, Central Africa and HIV/AIDS are prime examples.

    Not to mention the drugs they selling us and all the asthma and chronic sicknesses in young people that happening for no apparent reason, except the chemically saturated foods we are now eating. So much so that young people will tell you they don’t like yam and eddoes.

    If man is to live in harmony on this earth; then religion must go. Respect for people must be established. The right to believe whatever, without suffering abuse from those of another faith, or be stigmatised by the society.

  19. Grenville Avatar
    Grenville

    Hi Zoe:

    You provided a lot of information which is also covered in the book, much of which can be read on Amazon.com’s search inside feature. I will respond to each concern.

    Islamic religious tradition is varied depending on the devoutness of their adherents and the interpretations of the Qur’an. This is reflected in Arab culture.

    The origin of the word Allah remains an unconfirmed mystery. What none of the academics whom you mentioned have done, to my knowledge, is to take the Qur’an at face value and investigate the likely source of the word.

    The Qur’an identifies God as the God worshipped by Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Job, Daniel, David, and the Old Testament prophets. He is identified as the God of the Jews and Christians.

    Let us assume that this is correct. Where then could Mohammed have learnt about Allah. Well, Mohammed and those in his community were descendents of the Ishmaelites. Ishmael was the first born son of Abraham. There is nothing recorded in the Bible of Abraham ever referring to God as Allah. However, Ishmael’s Egyptian mother did address the Angel of God as a variant of the word ‘Allah’ after they were sent away. This is the likely source of the word. Please read the research for the details.

    Regards,
    Grenville

  20. Grenville Avatar
    Grenville

    Hi Nietzsche:

    Please note that the religious traditions are not being ignored, for they are necessary for properly interpreting the Bible and the Qur’an. What I have explained is that while harmony was found between the principal teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an, there is conflict between Christian and Islamic religious traditions.

    ROK, you are off-topic again. I will happily respond to you on another thread.

    Regards,
    Grenville

  21. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    @Grenville……Show me where I’m mistaken.

    If there is harmony between the principle teachings of these two, what/who is behind the conflict between the two traditions?

    @Zoe…..Can you explain how it is that someone/s are CLAIMING that the Bible is divinely inspired. (Your words not mine). Is it or isn’t it?

    You just couldn’t hide your hatred for the teachings of Islam, couldn’t you? Didn’t your bible teach you something about REMOVING THE MOTE fr your brother’s eye and not seeing the BEAM that’s blinding you? Here you are connecting Islam to “paganistic gods of Kmt as if your Christos Serapis didn’t come out of Kmt as well. Take the beam out ya damn eye first. But I’ll be back.

  22. Grenville Avatar
    Grenville

    Hi Hopi:

    Good question. We can only speculate. I believe that had Mohammed been meeting with Christians who were willing to listen to what he had to say at face-value, rather than be so critical, then who knows what would have happened.

    A cynical view is that it is simply a matter of controlling people.

    Regards,
    Grenville

  23. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Hopi, I used the word’s ‘…are CLAIMING…’ meaning for the Christians as well as the Muslims, that each one is making a contention or assertion, a thing claimed, as that is the only proper way to have worded the combination of the two truth claims.

    But, I firmly believe with a deep, abiding conviction, not blind faith, as you et al already know, that the Bible IS God’s Word, confirmed by the most preponderance of Historical evidence, second to none, literally in a class by itself when stacked against all other religious claims, that simply CANNOT be refuted with any sound, coherent arguments.

    You, Rok et all, can continue throwing all kinds of strawmen and Redherrings into the fray, IT WON’T WORK, as you CAN’T out the FIRE of God’s Revelation, with STRAW, or wood, it will just continue to BURN even brighter, and brighter, Glory to God, the One true and Omnipotent God!

  24. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    Zoe is an ass……plain and simple!!

  25. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Grenville, you say; “The Quran identifies God as the God worshipped by Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Job, Daniel, David, and the Old Testament prophets. He is identified as the God of the Jews and Christians.”

    While this acknowledgement given in the Quran is correct; this most certainly does not make the ‘Allah’ of Islam the same god as the God of the Old Testament prophets.

    The Roman Catholics also acknowledge exactly what the Quran acknowledged, even the New Testament accounts of Christ, His Crucifixion, and Resurrection, etc. BUT, the ‘Christ’ of Catholicism IS NOT the Christ of the Bible, the ‘spirit’ of Catholicism IS NOT the Spirit of Christ, and the gospel of Catholicism IS NOT the Gospel of the Bible, just like the ‘Allah’ of the Quran IS NOT the God of Historic divine revelation as revealed in the Old Testament.

    Acknowledgement of a Historic fact, does not necessarily mean, you are dealing with the same God!

    To be very blunt, Granville, I firmly, and resolutely believe that the ‘Allah’ of Islam is Satan, masquerading as God!

  26. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    NOTSAVED WROTE:
    Grenville writes :

    ‘You can spend your life debating the matter or you can simply open your eyes and be convinced immediately.”

    There is that patronising attitude again…

    By the way, which god should I see? yours right?
    ****************

    ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!!

  27. David Avatar
    David

    @Chris

    Thanks…link fixed!

    @livinginbarbados

    As asked before if you know of similar works please cite sources.

  28. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    @Zoe…..How is Islam more culturally imperialistic than Christianity? Of these two which one has bathed the earth in more blood on the behalf of their God. A. Egypt was the grandest prize of all. A country built by Blacks and ruled by Blacks. A country more advanced and civilised than any country you would find on earth today. And they both fought over it and hence we have modern-day Egypt being ruled by a stinking corrupt arab known as Mubarak. No other nation on this earth has had a civilization spanning the time period that Kemet has. Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism…..they all came from Kemet. You here trying to decipher Allah, but you need to go find out where your Christ came from, because they were many that preceded him and he is the last one on the scene. And whether or not you like Islam, doesn’t negate the fact that these men have more balls, more guts, more fortitude than you weak-knees christians whose mouths are filled with nothing but LIES and DEATH. Who is pillaging the world today? Who’s desecrating human life today? And all you dumb-ass christians (esp. if you re black) can do is stay on your knees and pray to the god of the slavemaster when you should be kicking his ass. You run up in your church like mice and pray for your christ to return. All you do to comfort your sorry arses is repeat the big shit that it has all been prophesied while being accomplices to your own demise.

    “Twenty centuries is a long while in the life-time of a lie, but a brief span in the eternity of TRUTH. The fiction is sure to be found out and the lie will fall At last! At last! At last.”

  29. Pat Avatar
    Pat

    Zoe // April 25, 2009 at 4:38 pm
    To be very blunt, Granville, I firmly, and resolutely believe that the ‘Allah’ of Islam is Satan, masquerading as God!
    ********************************

    Strange Zoe, but that is how many of us see the God of the Bible – Satan, the cast out princely one, gog!

    Read you Bible again and come back!

  30. Grenville Avatar
    Grenville

    Hi Rohan:

    Since the Jews, Christians, and Muslims declare that there is only One God, who is the only Creator, and that there is none besides Him. Then, I think that the very least that you can do is to invite Him to reveal Himself to you.

    Regards,
    Grenville

  31. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Grenville,
    So what makes the Jews, Christians, and muslims’ God any more viable than the other hundreds of Gods out there?

    Oh, and I invited God, Santa Claus, the tooth Fairy, and the jolly green giant to reveal themselves and guess what happened.

    Nothing!

    Looks like invisible and non-existent entities share a lot in common.

    Wake up man!

  32. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Grenville,

    “Mohammed was reacting to the teaching of the time of gods compounding through sexual intercourse.”

    That is one interpretation, but for me, an unlikely one. The evidence suggests that Mohammed was speaking not only to the pagans of his day, but also to the followers of Jesus.

    The Arabic words used for ‘beget’ and ‘begotten’ in that verse were ‘yalid’ and ‘yuulad’, and the verse literally means God does not give birth nor is He given birth to. I acknowledge that the Greek word for ‘beget’ is genderless whereas in Arabic there is both a male form (‘yalid’)’ and female form (‘teled’) of the verb… however, it is incorrect to assume that the use of the male form of the verb necessarily connotes sexual conception.

    Mohammed repeats the message several times in the Qur’an, and the following verses leave little doubt as to which religious group he is referring:

    Sura 5:17 “Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely, Allah– He is the Messiah, son of Marium”

    Sura 5:72 “Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium”

    Sura 5:73 – “Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three”

    Sura 5:75 – “The Messiah, son of Marium is but a messenger; messengers before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food.”

    Sura 9:30 – “And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!”

  33. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Rohan,

    Yes they look remarkably alike !

  34. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    @ Grenville… apart from the issue relating to the ‘deity’ of Jesus, I agree with your general position that there are no contradictions of significance between the Qur’an and the Bible.

  35. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    @ David, Grenville

    Mark Deli Siljander, the republican the US recently indicted for funneling money to an Afghan warlord, has lectured and written similar work. Google “A Deadly Misunderstanding” and “Overcoming the Muslim Western Divide”.

  36. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Rohan & Not Saved… It is clear you believe both books are wrong about the existence of God, but do you believe there is harmony between the principal teachings of the Qur’an and the Bible?

  37. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    No Lie or any kind of ‘deception’ especially ‘spiritual deception, is more subtle and dangerous, than when it is COUCHED, VENEERED, and presented in some degree of ‘truth’ exactly what Mohammad, under the influence of Satan, masquerading as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has done.

    Isn’t it interesting that all major Cults, who use the Bible, apart from their own spurious extra biblical sources; invariably ATTACK and malign the central core doctrine of Historic, Apostolic, Orthodox, Christianity, the DEITY of Christ, exactly what you find in the Quran.

    It makes no difference ‘…that there are no contradictions of significance between the Quran and the Bible.” As the Father of all Lies, always includes much truth, up front, in all of his LIES, and no deception, can gain any momentum unless it gets a ‘piggy-back’ ride on truth!

  38. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @Zoe

    “No Lie or any kind of ‘deception’ especially ’spiritual deception, is more subtle and dangerous, than when it is COUCHED, VENEERED, and presented in some degree of ‘truth’ exactly what Mohammad, under the influence of Satan, masquerading as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has done.”

    That is your fanaticism coming out. You and whomever else thinking like you are truly disturbed.

  39. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Micro Mock Engineer, to answer your question: sure there is harmony between the teachings of the bible and the Qur’an.

    Both books endorse slavery, the dehumanization of women, mass killing, child sacrifice, and other musings of a bloodthirsty, vengeance-seeking God.

    If you doubt anything I’ve said here, look it up. If you can’t find it, I’ll be happy to post the text.

  40. victor Avatar
    victor

    Zoe, yes there are MusIim countries which have secuIar govt. eg. Turkey pop 80 miIIion, where majority of women wear normaI cIothes etc. and in fact the veiI is iIIegaI though Wahabism is creeping in there too. ROK, the pIagues, parting of the red sea etc. in the oId testament aII have a basis in fact and naturaI phenomena but took on a spirituaI significance at the time, as the Jews tended to use adversity and Ioss as a unifying force, a way of proving to themseIves that they had not been foIIowing their beIiefs properIy . The oId is far more accurate than the new testament, as archaeoIogy and contemporaneous sources have proved. The story of Jesus is intriguing, considering we have as you say no factuaI, contemporaneous evidence at aII. Did one man inspire the foIIowers? It is strange we know so IittIe about it. Women, sIaves, the poor and crippIed fIocked to earIy Christianity because it was far more appeaIing than Roman reIigion where the gods frowned upon the weak. Christianity had Heaven, a big draw, and a cIear structure about how to get there. St PauI is pretty hard on women I often wonder if he was in fact gay. That’s one character we know existed for sure from his epistIe to the Ephesians etc. but he never actuaIIy met Jesus. Jesus, however is pretty cooI in his treatment of women, prostitutes, sIaves and the poor, sick, bIind and even the dead. It’s aII about second chances. He’s hard on the rich, cameIs and needIes iIIustrating this and not keen on money in generaI, Iending it in particuIar. However, as far as I am concerned, aII the monotheistic reIigions have one probIem and that is it’s aII about MEN. How can it be right to have a reIigion with just 2 guys and a bird representing creation? At Ieast the Sumerians, BabyIonians and Egyptians gave equaI rights to maIe and femaIe and animaIs aIso get to be in it. There’s a respect for nature Iacking in monotheism and a fear of women. Get from this terribIe earth, we peopIe faIIen from grace, and get to heaven. The big guiIt trip. Sinners! oh dear, even a tiny baby is in a state of “originaI sin”. This reaches its peak with the AIbgensians of France who decided to not have any babies at aII as humans were so dreadfuI and Iife on earth so awfuI. To them Iife on earth WAS heII. I’m not sure I wouId caII Ancient Egypt “bIack”. You can see from the many paintings adorning tombs that they had a cIear idea about ethnic differences in coIour and appearance, using hairstyIes, cIothes, physicaI characteristics etc. to differentiate between the races. As far as gods are concerned, the further back you go, into Nubia for exampIe, the cIoser the gods bear a resembIance to the gods of aII pantheistic reIigions. So if we aII want to Iive in harmony, better go back to the gods and goddesses perhaps! The Romans, for instance, were endIessIy adopting deities from here and there, eg the cuIts of Isis or CybeIe, adopting the Greek pantheon, etc. I feeI the root of the probIem Iies where you hear the words “I am the onIy God and you can onIy taIk to me through a priest”.

  41. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Rohan,

    Is it the belief in a God you find offensive, or the description of that God offered by these religions? (You forgot to mention ‘incest’ and ‘rape’ in your list by the way) 🙂

  42. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Islamists have a clearly outlined World Wide agenda, since Communism failed in its attempt to take over the world, another vicious totalist ideology; Islamism has now taken over, which seeks to force ‘sharia’ (Islamic law) on all the inhabitants of the earth, one way or the other, either by willful submission to ‘Allah’ or by force.

    It is no surpise that Islamism is an outgrowth of fascism and communism; as it was the Nazis who helped create Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood, a pioneering Islamic extremist group founded in 1928. The Nazis hoped to use the organization as a weapon against the British in the Middle East; these radical Islamists see violent Jihad as a necessity to achieve World Wide Islamic Law, a death cult, a totalitarian concept.

    Islamists believe that human beings who hold different beliefs represent a lower species and defile not only Muslim lands, but the entire earth.

    These rules are directly founded on mandates of the Prophet Muhammad, who on his deathbed, said:

    “Let there not be two religions in Arabia.” Muhammad also stated, “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims.”

    According to the Quran and the hadiths (recorded teachings of Muhammad), Jihad MUST be waged against unbelievers until they are DEFEATED, SUBJUGATED, and forced to submit to Islamic law.

    Myriad Quranic verses emphasize the importance of fighting unbelievers. The famous Verse of the Sword (Sura 9:5) for instance, which is considered the Quran’s final word on Jihad and nullifies all contrary teachings, instructs Muslims to attack and KILL non-Muslims as a means of achieving world hegemony under Islam.

    Muhammad himself was a living example in this regard, making frequent war against unbelievers. By the end of Muhammad’s life, Islam dominated Arabia, and Muslim armies were set to expand outward to battle the Byzantine and Persian empires. After Muhammad’s death, Muslims engagede in ferocious attacks on their non-Muslim neighbors, and the Islamic empire grew quickly, extending into Syria, Egypt, and eventually all of the Middle East and North Africa.

    Those who were conquered were given three choices; converting to Islam, living as second-class citizens and paying a poll tax (the jizya), or being sold into slavery or KILLED.

    These Islamic policies of Jihad and dhimmitude have NEVER been renounced, and their barbarities are abundantly present in the modern era. In the twentieth century, exposure to the totlitarian ideological virus only strengthened the DEATH cult that had been part of Islam from the very beginning.

    Grenville and MME, and you say, there is harmony between the principle teachings of the Quran and the Bible!

    Trying to in some way equate the teachings of the Quran as been in harmony with the Bible, is like trying to equate Roman Catholicism with the true Church of Jesus Christ; analagous to equating the Costra Nostra, the Mafia with the Salvation Army!

  43. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    MME,

    ‘harmony’ is not the word I would immediately use.

    As religions with common objectives, they have much in common, some of which has been alluded to by rohan. (and good stuff too)

  44. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Zoe,

    what is the “true church” of jesus christ?

    were jesus and his disciples observant jews? did they keep the law?

  45. Nietzche? Avatar
    Nietzche?

    I hope that Bajans should see by now that ALL religions are human inventions. These are mostly very divisive, destructive and hence harmful phenomena. The only way that any society can be peaceful, healthy and truly ethical is to aggressively moderate the religious imperative. This can best be done by promoting the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, promoting rational thinking vis-a-vis the scientific method in its schools and removing religious instruction from public schooling and promoting a secular republican form of governance.

  46. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    victor

    “ROK, the pIagues, parting of the red sea etc. in the oId testament aII have a basis in fact and naturaI phenomena…”

    That is by you saying so? Well I can also say that anything is possible, except that the subject matter is reported as events that took place at a particular time and space. This is not about probabilities or possibilities.

    BTW, where in history other than reported in the bible that waters were similarly parted by natural phenomena? no Tsunami can do that because tsunami is about ebb and flow.

  47. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    ROK,

    victor is correct, the story of the plagues (but somewhat less so the parting of the red sea) has a possible basis in natural phenomena.

    Of course, it was normal in that time to attribute natural phenomena to the work of god(s)

    (apparently still true today for a few of the extreme)

    The stories are also greatly enhanced for dramatic effect, a possible bloom of red algae taken for blood for example.

  48. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Grenville,

    What is the punishment for apostasy in islam?

  49. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    victor

    “The oId is far more accurate than the new testament, as archaeoIogy and contemporaneous sources have proved…”

    You are bringing new knowledge to the table? Let me ask you a question, what archeological artifacts exist that prove anything in the bible? You can’t find the holy graille nor the ark of the covenant… but there is a supposedly shawl on which the so-called Christ laid upon being buried.

    You can’t even find the cross he was crucified on. Do you know the location of the tomb in which he was buried? Can you verify that it belonged to a Joseph of Arimathea?

    Can you find any record of joseph in the Pharaoh’s Court? What about the Ark which Noah built? Such a large vessel and not a trace?

    I heard some time ago that radiation was still coming from Mount Sinai and that was supposed to be proof that some kind of nuclear craft/machinery was once there, since Mt. Sinai has no radiation materials within it.

    You want to put me in a blue room with yellow spectacles on and tell me that I in a green room, right?

  50. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    victor

    “I’m not sure I wouId caII Ancient Egypt “bIack”.”

    You were tricked too? See what I mean about a blue room with yellow shades? If you would not call it black what would you call it? Certainly not white?

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