474 responses to “Is This The Start Of World War III?”

1. 

   Technician

   January 22, 2009 at 11:24 pm

   
   

   No comment…:-)

   Loading…
2. 

   Hopi

   January 23, 2009 at 1:38 am

   
   

   @Tech…….Don’t indulge that CARLOSS in any debate about creation and evolution because some of us have been created by a higher consciousness while other have evolved from random delusions of grandeur laced with ignorance. Look on this thread and Yardbroom’s other Palestinian thread he is staunchly defending an INDEFENSIBLE position that a man without eyes can see. Check the way in which he dresses that LIE. He tries on a shirt & tie, when that doesn’t fit he goes and bring another one along with a raggy, worn out pants and some ole,tattered shoes and when someone pierces a hole thru them he goes and bring another raggy outfit and that too gets pierced again. That’s what you have to do with a LIE, you dress it up and dress it down and dress it up until it becomes so worn out by all the dressing that it eventually falls FLAT on its face. ‘In the abundance of water the fool is thirsty.’ CARLOSS RU4REAL?

   Loading…
3. 

   Carlos

   January 23, 2009 at 3:19 am

   
   

   Patinho,

   I never said that everything the Jews have done is justified by the Abrahamic covenant; not at all; BUT, what you don’t understand in this entire historic picture, is the dimension of Almighty God’s purpose and plan, which began with Abraham, the forefather of the Jewish people, and no matter how rebellious and apostate they were, and still are, as a ‘nation’ His sovereign will and design will be accomplished, in Jerusalem upon the second advent of The Lord Jesus Christ, no matter who scoffs at it.

   Historically, no ethic group of people have been more persecuted, tormented, brutally treated and dispersed throughout the world, than the Jewish people, and no doubt so, because of their disobedience to God.

   Yet, from time immemorial, they have continued as a distinct people, unlike no other ancient civilization; and this can only be accounted for by God’s sovereign, Omnipotent hand in their preservation, this is precisely why, all attempts to obliterate them has failed, no matter what, or who has tried!

   What most people don’t understand, is, that the real Palestinian State, IS the modern-day Royal Kingdom of Jordan, and is clearly an independent Palestinian-Arab state.

   “Geographicaly, it spans most of the land once called Palestine. Its population is largely made yp of so-called “Palestinians.” Abdullah and other Arab leaders admitted as much in 1948 prior to launching their war of aggression agaist the new state of Israel…’Palestine and Transjordan are ONE, for Palestine is the coast-line and Transjordan the hinterland of the same country,’ said Abdullah. His Prime Minister, Hazza al-Majali, went even further: “We are the army of Palestine…the overwhelming majority of Palestine Arabs are living in Jordan.”
   (Everlasting Hatred, The Roots of Jihad, pp.198-200).

   @HOPI, sounds like you are talking from actual, real, living experience; as the true ‘living water’ of LIFE, you have failed to recognize and accept, and therefore, like many, are ‘thirsty fools.’

   So it be!

   Loading…
4. 

   Fool

   January 23, 2009 at 10:19 am

   
   

   “Jews are too influential a force”

   “Jews have a historical not a legal claim to land in the Middle East”

   Is that true?

   “Israel wants all of Palestine for itself”

   Is that true?

   “read material other that biased Zionist propaganda”

   “I’ve always been firmly on the Palestinian side for as long as i can recall. I’m not anti-Semitic but”

   “So what if Gaza is destroyed and 1000s die?..they are only Palestinians…”

   “precisely BECAUSE the Jews purport to be God’s chosen people.”

   *********

   These are a few selections of your words, not mine.
   Now here is a small scriptural quote for you:
   “Thou shall not bear false witness”.

   Some people above say that Israel and Jews are wicked, murderous and corrupt. That is not true.

   I hear above zionist this, zionist that, and for me it’s racist. You can say above all you wish to about what Israel should do, and what it should not do. In the end the final staus of the State of Palestine will depend on the treaties that have been signed, i.e. the final borders and the peace and security of the parties concerned. You can’t kill us any more because Israel is an accepted legal entity. We look forward to the peace table.

   People above claim that the war is to deflect criticism away from corruption charges, none of which are on parties standing for election. I think that the war will only hasten the installation of the other party out of power, one which is more hard line.

   This will make you get on even worse: In Israel there are laws that speak to corruption and the diversion of monies like campaign donations and the public contracts. In Barbados these laws do not exist yet, but the DLP promised that there would be in 100 days.
   The ruling party has promised to bring these laws within 100 days of its being in power. In Barbados.

   You may not like me, or what I’m saying, but that’s the truth. You can hype up the deligitimisation of Israel because it’s me saying it, but in the end you will still have to address the promises that you bore false witness to in your manifesto.

   Peace.

   Loading…
5. 

   Dictionary

   January 24, 2009 at 6:25 am

   
   

   Gentlemen:

   A little reminder of fairly recent history:

   _______________

   “In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

   And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

   And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

   And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.”

   — Pastor Martin Niemöller of the Confessing Evangelical Churches, Germany [after he had been rescued by liberating armies from a concentration camp in 1945]

   ________________

   Let’s put a little context here, starting with the significance and relevance of the year 1919.

   The year in which the Versailles and related peace conferences and side agreements created a new world order, that of the nation-state; on the principle of self-determination of peoples, and out of the ashes of the collapsed Russian, Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires: from Finland, Poland and Czechoslovakia to Syria, Lebanon, what is now Israel, [Trans-] Jordan[ian Palestine], [Cis- Jordanian] Palestine, and Arabia.

   A process and principle that in the end reached even us in the Caribbean, and on which principles we have felt safe enough under the protection of the international system and leading states in it, to form microstates in the Caribbean. Microstates that would otherwise be easily gobbled up by any two-bit ambitious dictator. (And I can think of a few waiting in the wings.)

   A process during which this is the key statement of the Zionist submission ot the Conference [over the signature of inter alia the first President of Israel Chaim Weizmann] stated as follows:

   ************
   “The mandate shall be subject also to the following special conditions:
   Palestine [then a geographical term, not a state; there was no province of Palestine or Palestinian people in the Ottoman Empire — they viewed themselves as “Syrians”] shall be placed under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment there of the Jewish National Home and ultimately render possible the creation of an autonomous Commonwealth, it being clearly understood that nothing shall
   be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other
   country . . . . Lastly the land itself needs redemption Much of it is left desolate Its present condition is a standing reproach. Two things are necessary for that redemption – a stable and enlightened government, and an addition to the present population which shall be energetic, intelligent, devoted to the country, and
   backed by the large financial resources that are indispensable for development Such a population the Jews alone can supply.”

   *************

   If it had not been for the Zionist intervention from the 1870’s on, there would be nothing to quarrel over in the geographical region Palestine; then and for decades thereafter a wasteland of desert, semi-desert, denuded hills and malarial hinterlands. With labour [starting without bulldozers], treasure, sickness and blood, the Jews rebuilt their ancestral homeland, which some of them had never left and to which many others repeatedly returned as soon as the door opened, over the ages. They asked only to share the land with those already there, on terms of equity — not that shocking state of apartheid under Sharia law known as dhimmitude under the so-called pact of Umar. They were met in part with reason, as the Weizmann-Feisal [later king of Iraq and brother to the future king of Trans-Jordan] agreement on mutually supportive development of the region by Jews and Arabs as brother nations testifies. But others set out on envy, murder and driving out, so that every seemingly reasonable settlement on the principle of sharing a common homeland; from 1919 to 1947 to post 1967 to 1993 – 2000 has been sabotaged. And consistently that came from the ARAB side — “he hit back first” being its own refutation, as currently over Gaza. [Quite a contrast with say the relatively peaceful history of US-Mexican relations since the 1840’s where Mexico lost vast territories to the US in a series of wars linked to issues over the Texians. (And that is the original spelling.)]

   Why?

   ANS: We must understand IslamISM — not the religion but the ideology that fastens and feeds upon it.

   The one that cites selected proof-texting Hadiths and Ayas of the Quran [cf Q 9:5 and 29 etc] on “slaying” or conquering “pagans,” and “people of the book” [i.e. Jews, Christians and later others of established religions], including the one that the end of the age will not come until the all-conquering “black flag” armies march, from the direction of “Khorasan” [i.e. Iran and eastwards thereof, e.g. many islamISTS today view the Taliban as the foundation of that army].

   Armies headed by al Mahdi, and aided by Prophet Isa. Armies that will conquer Iraq, Arabia and Jerusalem. After which there will be a slaugther of the Jews, to the point where rocks and trees will say there is a Jew hiding behind me come and kill him. Then, the whole world will be subjugated under the rule of Allah, his prophet, his law, his armies, headed by Al Mahdi and his Lieutenant. All crosses will be broken. All Christians will be convinced to abandon their faith. All Jews — alleged descendants of apes and pigs [per a story on Allah’s judgement on Jews who defied his ban on Pork etc] and the root of most or at least much of the evils in the world — will be eliminated.

   Of course, these fairly easily researched contextual and balancing facts are not in our headlines, news stories and feature articles. No prizes for guessing why — they do not fit the narratives those who would lead us as they will have presented for our gullible consumption. (For such, we are “sheeple,” not people who have a right to a true and fair, balanced and objective view of the state of international affairs.)

   Hamas, sirs, FYI, is the Palestinian wing of the Muslim Brotherhood founded in Egypt, and which signs up to this religiously motivated — I do not say “grounded” or “well-warranted” — global conquest ideology.

   One that has claims against Jamaica and the wider Caribbean that bear the same structure as the claims it has against Israel, much of India and Spain: lands formerly under IslamIST domination must be restored “by any means necessary.”

   If you doubt me, just read between the lines of Dr Sultana Afroz’s teachings that the Spanish settlement in our region was Moorish-Islamic and that the British conquered as crusaders, then importing enslaved Muslims; who led jihads of liberation against their slave masters. Masters who allegedly forcibly converted unwilling slaves to Christians. (These claims are quite tendentious, but that is a notorious stock in trade of such conquering ideologies. For instance George Liele — former slave in Georgia and C18-19 founder of the Baptist church that is the bedrock foundation of Jamaica’s nationhood, was by his church confession a convinced [Ana-]baptist.)

   So, the lands of the Caribbean, too, are subject to Jihads, if we will not heed the ongoing Dawah — call to surrender [and preparatory to war if necessary], strictly — that invites us to “revert” to Islam. No great surprise, as the common Islamist saying is: Saturday first, then Sunday.

   So, which is it:

   [A] the 1919 principle of self determination by free peoples and negotiated settlements of disputes, or

   [B] ideologies of global conquest under whatever label — race, liberation of oppressed workers and peasants, religion.

   Let us just note that such ideologies will often exploit our legitimate concerns and grievances, the better to divide and weaken the opposition, in the interests of conquest. Or, have we so soon forgotten the lessons of the past 70 – 80 years?

   Lessons that cost over 100 millions their lives?

   Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it . . .

   GEM of TKI

   Loading…
6. 

   Dictionary

   January 24, 2009 at 8:15 am

   
   

   PS: Let’s get a little more reference context.

   For that, a good place to begin is with the recent comments in author of The Legacy of Jihad, Andrew Bostom’s July 17, 2006 article that observes:

   +++++++++++++++

   http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/07/apocalyptic_muslim_jewhatred.html

   There are short—term reasons behind the attacks on Israel by Hezbollah and Hamas. But underlying all the geo—strategy is a solid foundation of fanatical Jew—hatred, dating back to the founding of Islam. There is literally nothing Israel or Jews can do to appease those who seek to annihilate them . . . .

   Georges Vajda —in a seminal 1937 essay [1: Juifs et Musulmans selon le hadit [Jews and Muslims according to the hadith]. Journal Asiatique, 1937, Vol. 229, pp. 57—129. English translation by Susan Emanuel.] (long before the establishment of the State of Israel)—provides an overall assessment of the portrayal of the Jews in the hadith collections (the putative words and deeds of the Muslim prophet Muhammad, as recorded by pious transmitters), complemented by Koranic verses, and observations from the earliest Muslim biographies [or ‘sira’] of Muhammad.

   Vajda’s research demonstrates how Muslim eschatology emphasizes the Jews’ supreme hostility to Islam. Jews are described as adherents of the Dajjāl—the Muslim equivalent of the Anti—Christ—and as per another tradition, the Dajjāl is in fact Jewish. At his appearance, other traditions state that the Dajjāl will be accompanied by 70,000 Jews from Isfahan wrapped in their robes, and armed with polished sabers, their heads covered with a sort of veil. When the Dajjāl is defeated, his Jewish companions will be slaughtered— everything will deliver them up except for the so—called gharkad tree. Thus, according to a canonical hadith . . . .

   >> ‘The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: `Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him’; but the tree Gharkad [box-thorn, related to both the Goji berry tree and the tea tree] would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.’ (Sahih Muslim, Book 40, Number 6985). [link: http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/041.smt.html#041.6985 ]>>

   Both jihadist terror organizations believe they can now take advantage of their political gains in Lebanon (Hizbollah), and the Palestinian controlled areas of Gaza and the West Bank (Hamas), and succeed in their goal to destroy Israel—motivated by a primordial hatred of Jews, sanctioned in Muslim theology and eschatology.

   [Kindly, read the whole article, and follow up the link to the hadith]

   +++++++++++++++

   let us carefully note Bostom’s further point: >> Hamas further demonstrates openly its adherence to a central motif of Jew—hatred in Muslim eschatology—Article 7 of the Hamas Charter concludes with a verbatim reiteration of the [above cited] apocalyptic hadith. >>

   Suddenly, the firing of 8 – 10,000 rockets into Israel against civilians from 3000 to now, from a Gaza that since 2005 – 6 has but one Jewish occupant, a kidnapped soldier, shines in a very different light than that of “resistance” to an occupation that is no more in Gaza. An occupation that was a part of a defensive war against the openly stated aim of annihilation of the Jews in the Holy Land — sounds familiar? (So this was a subtext in 1948 and 1967 also.)

   And, note Mr St Hill et al: where there is still a partial occupation, in the W Bank, that is in the context of defensive war again — Jordan’s decision to join Egypt and Syria in 1967 [king Hussein for survival had but little choice] and resulting artillery and aerial bombardment backed up by ground attacks in Jerusalem.

   More immediately it is in the context of the the otherwise inexplicable walkaway by Arafat in 2000 from the best deal he could expect short of wiping out the Jews of Israel and seizing their lands. As Dennis Ross testifies, 97% of the lands on the E side of the 1949 lines (forming a contiguous whole), with E Jerusalem as Capital and control of Temple Mount, with all of Gaza, with a highway joining the two, and with financial support from Israel, the US and the international community. All of which would have amply fulfilled UNSC 242 and 338 on their documented and objectively established proper meaning. Again, we hear a familiar echo . . .

   But the problem does not stop there.

   For on the Black Flag armies mentioned above, we may read:

   >> “Hadith indicate that black flags coming from the area of Khorasan will signify the appearance of the Mahdi is nigh. Khorasan is in todays Iran, and
   some scholars have said that this hadith means when the black flags appear from Central Asia, i.e.
   in the direction of Khorasan, then the appearance of the Mahdi is imminent.”
   [The Approach of Armageddon? Canada, Supreme Muslim Council of America, 2003), p. 231. (NB Others point out that Khorasan formerly referred to areas E & NE of Persian
   Empire; and point to the Taliban as the probable black flag army.) ] >>

   +++++++++++++

   In many IslamIST eyes, we are now in eschatological times, and they expect the all conquering armies to emerge from the hills on the borders of Pakistan and/or Iran and/or the sands of Iraq. Then under Mahdi — and does Mr bin Laden aspire to that status? — they expect these armies to surge all over the ME, including Israel, slaugthering the Jews.

   Then, fresh from such genocide, the whole world is to be conquered by these same armies and their leaders.

   I think — having heard another side of the story — we now need to think very, very soberly, about the issues, conflicts and places that now dominate so much of current International affairs.

   And, about the implications for us here in our region.

   GEM of TKI

   Loading…
7. 

   Dictionary

   January 24, 2009 at 8:38 am

   
   

   PS (2): I assume the problem is links, so I will eliminate in the following . . .

   **********

   Let’s get a little more reference context.

   For that, a good place to begin is with the recent comments in author of The Legacy of Jihad, Andrew Bostom’s July 17, 2006 article, Apocalyptic Muslim Jew-hatred, that observes:

   +++++++++++++++

   There are short—term reasons behind the attacks on Israel by Hezbollah and Hamas. But underlying all the geo—strategy is a solid foundation of fanatical Jew—hatred, dating back to the founding of Islam. There is literally nothing Israel or Jews can do to appease those who seek to annihilate them . . . .

   Georges Vajda —in a seminal 1937 essay [1: Juifs et Musulmans selon le hadit [Jews and Muslims according to the hadith]. Journal Asiatique, 1937, Vol. 229, pp. 57—129. English translation by Susan Emanuel.] (long before the establishment of the State of Israel)—provides an overall assessment of the portrayal of the Jews in the hadith collections (the putative words and deeds of the Muslim prophet Muhammad, as recorded by pious transmitters), complemented by Koranic verses, and observations from the earliest Muslim biographies [or ‘sira’] of Muhammad.

   Vajda’s research demonstrates how Muslim eschatology emphasizes the Jews’ supreme hostility to Islam. Jews are described as adherents of the Dajjāl—the Muslim equivalent of the Anti—Christ—and as per another tradition, the Dajjāl is in fact Jewish. At his appearance, other traditions state that the Dajjāl will be accompanied by 70,000 Jews from Isfahan wrapped in their robes, and armed with polished sabers, their heads covered with a sort of veil. When the Dajjāl is defeated, his Jewish companions will be slaughtered— everything will deliver them up except for the so—called gharkad tree. Thus, according to a canonical hadith . . . .

   >> ‘The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: `Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him’; but the tree Gharkad [box-thorn, related to both the Goji berry tree and the tea tree] would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.’ (Sahih Muslim, Book 40, Number 6985). >>

   Both jihadist terror organizations believe they can now take advantage of their political gains in Lebanon (Hizbollah), and the Palestinian controlled areas of Gaza and the West Bank (Hamas), and succeed in their goal to destroy Israel—motivated by a primordial hatred of Jews, sanctioned in Muslim theology and eschatology.

   [Kindly, read the whole article, and follow up the link to the hadith]

   +++++++++++++++

   let us carefully note Bostom’s further point: >> Hamas further demonstrates openly its adherence to a central motif of Jew—hatred in Muslim eschatology—Article 7 of the Hamas Charter concludes with a verbatim reiteration of the [above cited] apocalyptic hadith. >>

   Suddenly, the firing of 8 – 10,000 rockets into Israel against civilians from 3000 to now, from a Gaza that since 2005 – 6 has but one Jewish occupant, a kidnapped soldier, shines in a very different light than that of “resistance” to an occupation that is no more in Gaza. An occupation that was a part of a defensive war against the openly stated aim of annihilation of the Jews in the Holy Land — sounds familiar? (So this was a subtext in 1948 and 1967 also.)

   And, note Mr St Hill et al: where there is still a partial occupation, in the W Bank, that is in the context of defensive war again — Jordan’s decision to join Egypt and Syria in 1967 [king Hussein for survival had but little choice] and resulting artillery and aerial bombardment backed up by ground attacks in Jerusalem.

   More immediately it is in the context of the the otherwise inexplicable walkaway by Arafat in 2000 from the best deal he could expect short of wiping out the Jews of Israel and seizing their lands. As Dennis Ross testifies, 97% of the lands on the E side of the 1949 lines (forming a contiguous whole), with E Jerusalem as Capital and control of Temple Mount, with all of Gaza, with a highway joining the two, and with financial support from Israel, the US and the international community. All of which would have amply fulfilled UNSC 242 and 338 on their documented and objectively established proper meaning.

   Again, we hear a sadly and regrettably familiar echo . . .

   But the problem does not stop there. For on the Black Flag armies mentioned above, we may read:

   >> “Hadith indicate that black flags coming from the area of Khorasan will signify the appearance of the Mahdi is nigh. Khorasan is in todays Iran, and
   some scholars have said that this hadith means when the black flags appear from Central Asia, i.e.
   in the direction of Khorasan, then the appearance of the Mahdi is imminent.”
   [The Approach of Armageddon? Canada, Supreme Muslim Council of America, 2003), p. 231. (NB Others point out that Khorasan formerly referred to areas E & NE of Persian
   Empire; and point to the Taliban as the probable black flag army.) ] >>

   +++++++++++++

   In many IslamIST eyes, we are now in eschatological times, and they expect the all conquering armies to emerge from the hills on the borders of Pakistan and/or Iran and/or the sands of Iraq. Then under Mahdi — and does Mr bin Laden aspire to that status? — they expect these armies to surge all over the ME, including Israel, slaughtering the Jews.

   Then, fresh from such genocide, the whole world is to be conquered by these same armies and their leaders.

   I think — having heard another side of the story — we now need to think very, very soberly, about the issues, conflicts and places that now dominate so much of current International affairs.

   And, about the implications for us here in our region.

   GEM of TKI

   Loading…
8. 

   Dissident

   January 24, 2009 at 11:23 am

   
   

   Dictionary, a trenchant and perceptive analysis of the situation which should, for-once-and-all, put to rest the emotional and inflammatory rhetoric of the uninformed on this forum, and in other media.

   Loading…
9. 

   Carlos

   January 24, 2009 at 11:36 am

   
   

   Yes, the above brief, but extremely relevant ‘Islamist’ religious ideology, that is at the ‘heart’ of their thrust, to first exterminate the state of Israel and all Jews, then world conquest, cannot be emphasized enough, which is unfortunately NOT understood by most people in the West; and is in fact the ‘driving’ force behind ‘Hamas’ ‘Hizbollah’ and other deeply related Islamic, terrorist organizations.

   The point made by ‘GEM of TKI’ the refusal of Arafat by walking away in 2000, from, ‘…the best deal he could expect, short of wiping out the Jews of Israel and seizing their lands.” Cannot be overlooked, as is obviously done by those who are sympathizers with Hamas and the Palestinians, bearing in mind, that this proposal was most recent, (2000) and would have ‘…amply fulfilled UNSC 242 and 338 on their documents and objectively established proper meanin.”

   Until those who oppose Israel in this conflict, begin to understand that this imperative of utter ‘hatred’ which began in earnest with Prophet Mohammed and the ‘birth’ of Islam in the 7th century, and is now reaching its ultimate purpose in the 21st century, fueled by the availability of weapons of mass destruction, which they intend to use once they get them, the uninformed will never be able to honestly and objectively understand why Israel HAS no choice but to strongly exhert her military power, which thus far, is only a fraction of what she has, in order to contain, at least, those who WANT TO DESTROY HER.

   Loading…
10. 

    Fool

    January 24, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    
    

    Thoughts of a fool, and the knowledge of hatred and vindictive reactions to come:

    Please let us remember that in order for a peace agreement to be forged; Muslims and Jews, Israelis, Palestinians and others; will have to come to terms with each other’s existence.

    We cannot go on denying that our lands and our separate needs always exist. I pray that my kind be accepted and no longer hated, just as I pray for personnal guidance not to hate others.

    I know it is not in the prophecy, not in the rhetoric, not in our newspapers, not on this blog, not on this thread, but I pray for peace.

    And also I pray for Barbados to put away anti-Semitism, plus other forms of racialistic caricatures, asking them to go away from this place Barbados and make us tolerant of our diversities.

    I pray for acceptance of minorities in Barbados including Guyanese workers who are honest; and the guidance to the Prime Minister who will have to ask some to go home due to lack of available jobs; and acceptance of homosexuals on this blog. I pray for reason and truth to be expressed and noticed above politics, and that these motivations be transparent to more people than myself.

    I pray that our leaders be diligent and carefully safeguard the soon dwindling tax monies and NIS monies as they dwindle in the coming months. I pray for laws to protect the expenditure by Government on this our island, including the 400 Million dollars. And the control of our debt while maintaining the amenities to our under-privileged.

    Please all, think about praying with me. If you do not believe in any Higher Being, hope strongly for good things here in Barbados.

    Loading…
11. 

    Dictionary

    January 25, 2009 at 5:35 am

    
    

    Gentle People:

    First, thanks for a few kind words just above.

    I await the response of those who have so strongly advocated against Israel/ Zionists/ Jews in the further above [and elsewhere in the Bajan media recently], and against Bible-believing Christians (who often support Israel) as well.

    On this last, I do note in passing that it is easy to airily dismiss Bible based beliefs as mythological, deriding such Christians as ignorant or deluded or worse. I pause and draw attention to the central warranting argument of the Christian faith — the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, with 500+ eyewitnesses — and the resulting outpouring of the Spirit of God leading to a resurrection powered faith that through personal encounter with the Living God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob [and yea even of Ishmael — “God hears”] has transformed lives and cultures for the good for 2,000 years now. Such people are going to take seriously the scriptures that predict and prophesy just such events [cf Is 53 and Ac 1 – 2, 17:16 – 34 and 1 Cor 15:1 – 11.]

    I note, too, that I forgot one component of the 2000 Dennis Ross mediated bargain:

    ++++

    Not only would the W Bank be 97% in the *second* Arab Palestinian state ([Trans-]Jordan[ian Palestine] being the first), but compensating land would be transferred from Israel on the other side of the 1949 line for the other 3% [Land that evidently is predominantly Arab in population] .

    Arafat’s astonishing response — walkaway and terroristic war — to the best reasonable deal he could hope for, is a strong reason why the Israeli public has decisively shifted away from a “peace at almost any price” mindset hat grew across the 1990’s. For, if THAT deal was walked away from and turned into an excuse for terroristic war, then the only reasonable explanation is the one that we hear too often in Arabic but not usually in English: genocidal intent, per clause 7 of the Hamas Charter, and per the hadith it cites under an IslamIST interpretation.

    (Unfortunately, such interpretations have entirely too much classic and authoritative Islamic thought support — and examples from the words and deeds of M himself and the first four, “rightly guided” Caliphs, to make me comfortable. I hope that we in the West can so keep our alertness and balance that we will be able to provide a decisive counterweight that the moderates will in the end prevail and moderating reformation will eventually be the generally accepted Muslim view. One more item for F’s prayer list.)

    +++++++++++

    I add that 1/5 of Israel’s citizens are Arabs, and have all the rights that Jewish citizens have, and one less obligation: no compulsory military service — though significant numbers serve on a voluntary basis. The Druze from the 1950’s on have volunteered as a community to be subject to the draft. Circassians, who are not Arabs but are a Muslim Minority, also willingly serve in the Israeli Army.

    The “apartheid” accusation against Israel is without merit, and is a turnabout accusation in light of the status of Women and non-Muslim minorities — dhimmis — in the Arab states.

    Thank you again

    GEM of TKI

    PS: Moderators, thank you for putting up the version of the PS yesterday with the links. Perhaps, the one without the links could be removed? [BTW, what is the set link limit there at BU? Does BU accept HTML markups such as for addresses, bold, italics and blockquotes, as is common for WordPress blogs?]

    Loading…
12. 

    Dictionary

    January 25, 2009 at 5:47 am

    
    

    PPS: I think the interview with a British Army Colonel who was a commander in Afghanistan may help us set a bit of balancing context on the “massacre”/ “disproportion” narrative on the just concluded round of Gaza fighting:

    (Notice how the reporter fails to realise the significance of informing the occupants of a house — plainly (as the Israelis MUST have known that this would be an easy propaganda story) being used for significant military purposes — to evacuate 24 hrs before it was hit. that’s a lot of time to let the innocent leave — and frankly, even the guilty and relevant war materials. [I suspect that the war materials involved were of such a nature that they could not be moved on 24 hours notice. Rather reminds me of seeing on an ordinary looking house in a very ordinary neighbourhood — sort of like a low end Ealing Park Ch Ch. — in I believe Santa Clara city, Cuba: “Zone Militar: No pasa!” Military posts — per international law and for very good reasons — should NOT be in civilian neighbourhoods!])

    Loading…
13. 

    Technician

    January 25, 2009 at 8:30 am

    
    

    I add that 1/5 of Israel’s citizens are Arabs, and have all the rights that Jewish citizens have…….

    It is amazing how you could slip this blatant lie in here.

    Loading…
14. 

    Dictionary

    January 25, 2009 at 9:45 am

    
    

    Technician:

    It is a good thing that I passed back here before heading off to church this morning, for I see just above remarks that are *tantamount* to calling me a liar.

    A corrective is in order.

    First, to my best knowledge, the Arabs of Israel, i.e. these are Israeli citizens, about 1 – 1.5 millions or so or about 20% of Israel’s citizens, have the full legal rights of citizenship, and no compulsory obligation of military service. As noted, the Druzes volunteered to be subject tot he draft, and Circassians are also by their choice subject to such service. Bedouin often volunteer to serve in the army and are noted for their work as scouts and trackers.

    This status, to the best of my knowledge, is in accord with the commitment in Israel’s May 15 1948 declaration of Independence that:

    >> THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it
    will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations. >>

    As a result, one Israeli Arab has served on the Supreme Court of Israel in recent times and I believe one may have served recently as a cabinet member — which is a sharp contrast to the male Muslim supremacy enforced in long settled [over 1,000 years settled in many regards] Sharia Islamic — note; I am not using IslamIST now — law.

    Arab citizens of Israel are not subject to a tax of humiliation and sometimes confiscation and enslavement, unlike the Jizya of Q 9:29 across time.

    They enjoy freedom of association, freedom of conscience, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, freedom to vote and stand for office, and and as a result, freedom of representation in the Knesset, Israel’s parliament. From that parliament, they have even denounced the conduct of Israel during the recent war.

    Their women enjoy equality of rights before the law — which Sharia specifically forbids.

    Whether they are Muslim, Druze or Christian, their testimony is not immediately discounted at law if they are in contradiction to the testimony of a Jew or a Jewish man. (Contrast Sharia on that, and think about what the Sharia does to property and personal rights and freedoms. if you need a reference, cf the works of Bat Y’eor.)

    I am of course very aware that *social* discrimination exists, as is inevitable in any multicultural society, and indeed targets not only Arabs but Oriental Jews. Such is not the same as an official policy, one without effective legal redress — by sharp contrast with blacks under the colour bar or those who are not Muslim Men under Sharia.

    Kindly, supply ACCURATE and relevant corrective information — I am and have been speaking of the Citizens of Israel — if that summary just given is not so.

    No red herrings or strawman games please.

    And, the sort of half-truth, and/or outright false and erroneous, and/or unable to predict the future accurately, statements by Mr Killgore above are precisely NOT such accurate corrective information. For just one instance, Mr Sharon during his time in office was involved in a process that very predictably led to the expulsion of people from their homes and farms: namely, approximately 8,000 Jewish settlers in what strictly are the disputed territories of N Gaza. That runs exactly counter to what Mr Killgore projected circa early 1990’s.

    Finally, in future kindly refrain from immediate resort to ad hominem language that presumes/ implies/ strongly suggests intentional deception on my part.

    That, sir, is a SERIOUS breach of your duties of care. Such behaviour, sadly, does not speak well of you.

    Please, please [as my old Headmaster at Kolij used to say] do better than that.

    GEM of TKI

    Loading…
15. 

    David

    January 25, 2009 at 4:18 pm

    
    

    @Dictionary

    Just worry about submitting the comment and if the spammer gets you we will retrieve it:-)

    Loading…
16. 

    Technician

    January 25, 2009 at 5:57 pm

    
    

    Kindly, supply ACCURATE and relevant corrective information — I am and have been speaking of the Citizens of Israel — if that summary just given is not so.

    Accurate by your standards and beliefs no doubt??

    That is impossible to do when the other side only sees what they want to believe.

    Anything that refutes your claims are dismissed as inaccurate, half truths and other titles.

    People like you and Carlos are the only authority, the rest us us are stupid, ignorant and misinformed, therefore I give you all a wide berth.

    I am glad that most are not like you.

    Loading…
17. 

    Technician

    January 25, 2009 at 6:04 pm

    
    

    I guess this will be classified as false, untrue….etc.
    http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=34885

    Loading…
18. 

    Carlos

    January 25, 2009 at 9:00 pm

    
    

    Facts , whether true or false need to be honestly and objectively interpreted, in order to arrive at logical conclusions; some are able to understand this, unfortunately many are unable to reason this ‘critical’ thought process through.

    Technician: You falsely and erronously implied that GEM of TKI was lying; this was refuted by their submission of facts, soundly putting you in your place; Yet, you still continue with your purile nonsense!

    Loading…
19. 

    Dictionary

    January 25, 2009 at 9:35 pm

    
    

    David et al:

    Thanks.

    Pardon length following to deal with an ad hominem attack backed up by half truths.

    ___________

    Technician:

    I will comment on a few follow-up points:

    1] Ad hominems –> Notice how you BEGIN: >>Accurate by your standards and beliefs no doubt?? >>

    T, you are here *again* ignoring your duties of care by assuming and asserting that I am in effect closed minded and unwilling to listen to the truth.

    Onlookers, the underlying cluster of fallacies is: drag a distractive red herring, leading out to strawmen laced with oil of ad hominems, to be ignited spectacularly, thus clouding and poisoning the atmosphere required for fair minded, balanced, well-informed and clear discussion.

    So, let us note: for nigh on two days now, the same pundits above who were bashing away at Israel and Christians at will for many days have now been utterly unable to address the underlying issues of the 1919 world order of nation states vs IslamISM as a world conquest agenda that has from its foundation set out on genocide of Jews.

    So, let us keep that in mind as we deal with the latest distractive, ad hominem laced claims.

    2] Personal attack –> here, we observe T: >>People like you and Carlos are the only authority, the rest us us are stupid, ignorant and misinformed, therefore I give you all a wide berth >>

    Where have I claimed any authority above and beyond what the facts and reasoning linked thereto warrant?

    Where have I ever called someone stupid?

    Where have I simply dismissed misinformation without prioviding at least a hint on how it can be corrected?

    Onlookers, observe again, I have pointed to the accessible facts of the Versailles settlement of 1919 and the implications thereof. [Just do some Google etc searches under key words — I am hampered by the blog’s links policy.]

    I have in particular pointed to the facts of what the Quran and Hadiths say, and what is in Clause 7 of Hamas’ charter. I have pointed you to Mr Bostom’s remarkable analyses, and to Bat Ye’or, a leading scholar on dhimmitude and jihad across the ages.

    I have pointed to openly and easily checkable facts on the modern history of Israel and the associated disputes, starting with citing the 1919 submission of the Zionists to the Versailles conference, and the associated January 1919 London agreement between Chaim Weizmann [later 1st pres, Israel] representing the Jewish Nation and Feisal Hussein [later, king of Iraq] representing the Arab nation. Similarly, on the League and UN mandates and the wars of Independence and 1967, also the Khartoum three nos, the 1979 Israel-Egypt peace, the 1994 Jordan peace, the 1993 – now Oslo process, the Dennis Ross compromise of 2000. As well, the 2000 pullout from Lebanon [and facts on the 1982 invasion], and the Gaza 2005 pullout, including that the only people dispossessed by Sharon as PM were 7800 Israeli settlers in what strictly are disputed territories and even if considered then occupied, so occupied in defensive war in 1967 in the face of a ring of iron and a blockade that was an act of war.

    None of the facts and more on the substantial matter have been disputed, they are just being angrily and uncivilly dismissed with ad hominems because — surprise — they do not fit T’s view.

    In short we see here a classic turnabout, unsubstantiated or outright false accusation on his part leading to closed minded dismissal of some inconvenient facts and the people who may has put them up.

    Technician: that’s not cricket!

    3] Arab rights –> the cited page from a Turkish newspaper is headlined: >>Arab MPs protest offensive, Israel bans them from elections >>

    It will help to know this, from Wiki (taken as a handy first reference that is likely if anything to lean T’s way):

    >>Arab citizens comprise almost 20% of the population of Israel . . . There is research that supports that the overwhelming majority of Arab citizens of Israel would choose to remain Israeli citizens rather than become citizens of a future Palestinian state . . . . Israel’s Declaration of Independence called for the establishment of a Jewish state with equality of social and political rights, irrespective of religion, race or sex.[101]

    The rights of citizens are guaranteed by a set of Basic Laws (Israel does not have a written constitution).[102] Although this set of laws does not explicitly include the term “right to equality”, the Israeli Supreme Court has consistently interpreted “Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty”[103] and “Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation (1994)”[104] as guaranteeing equal rights for all Israeli citizens.[105]

    The website for the Israeli government’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that “Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel with equal rights” and states that “The only legal distinction between Arab and Jewish citizens is not one of rights, but rather of civic duty. Since Israel’s establishment, Arab citizens have been exempted from compulsory service in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF).” [106] Druze and Circassians are drafted into the Israeli army, while other Arabs may serve voluntarily; however, only a very small number of Arabs choose to volunteer for the Israeli army.>>

    And this:

    >>Amendment #9 to the ‘Basic Law: The Knesset and the Law of Political Parties’ passed on July 31, 1985, changed section 7(a) to state that a political party “may not participate in the elections if there is in its goals or actions a denial of the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people, a denial of the democratic nature of the state, or incitement to racism.”[129][130] . . . .

    In December 2002 Palestinian member of Knesset Azmi Bishara and his party, Balad, which also calls for Israel to become “a state of all its citizens,” were banned by the Israeli Central Elections Committee, for refusing to recognize Israel as a “Jewish democratic state”[132] and making statements promoting armed struggle against it. The Supreme Court overruled the decision in January 2003.[133] When, in December 2005, Bishara told an audience in Lebanon that Arab citizens “[…]are like all Arabs, only with Israeli citizenship forced upon them […] Return Palestine to us and take your democracy with you. We Arabs are not interested in it,”[134] this was interpreted as denial of the democratic nature of the state once more.

    The only party currently banned under this law is the right-wing Jewish Kach party.[135] . . . .

    There are three mainstream Arab parties in Israel: Hadash (a joint Arab-Jewish party with a large Arab presence), Balad and the United Arab List, which is a coalition of several different political organizations including the Islamic Movement. In addition to these, Ahmed Tibi’s Ta’al faction has been elected to the last two Knessets as part of alliances with Hadash and the United Arab List. Two Arab parties ran in Israel’s first election in 1949, with one, the Democratic List of Nazareth, winning two seats. Until the 1960s all Arab parties in the Knesset were affiliated with Mapai, the ruling party.

    A minority of Arabs join and vote for Zionist parties; in the 2006 elections 30% of the Arab vote went to such parties, up from 25% in 2003,[136] though down on the 1999 (30.5%) and 1996 elections (33.4%).[137] Left-wing parties (i.e. Labor Party and Meretz-Yachad, and previously One Nation) are the most popular parties amongst Arabs, though some Druze have also voted for right-wing parties such as Likud and Yisrael Beitenu, as well as the centrist Kadima.[138][139] . . . .

    Palestinian Arabs sat in the state’s first parliamentary assembly; currently, 12 of the 120 members of the Israeli Parliament are Arab citizens, most representing Arab political parties, and one of Israel’s Supreme Court judges is a Palestinian Arab.[145]

    In the public employment sphere, by the end of 2002, 6.1% of 56,362 Israeli civil servants were Arab.[146] In January 2004, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon declared that every state-run company must have at least one Arab citizen of Israel on its board of directors.[147] >>

    Taken in that context, it is fair comment to say that the substantial facts are as I have indicated: equality under Israeli law, but with problems over social discrimination, which can sometimes become administrative [as is common, even here in the Caribbean], but with effective right of relief.

    IN SHORT, I HAVE PRECISELY NOT LIED.

    T owes an apology here.

    4] Arab Parties –> the Turkish newspaper article T links, dated Jan 13, observes:

    >> A Central Election Committee panel [Elections in Israel being due in Feb] voted on Monday to back the motion filed by two right-wing parties, which also accused the National Democratic Assembly (also known as Balad) and Ra’am-Ta’al of incitement and supporting “terrorist” groups.>>

    It further claims that such banning is >> the culmination of years of discrimination within Israel against its Arab citizens. >>

    Given that we have at least one Jewish party banned under the same statute, this is not an issue of generalised and legally based discrimination vs Arabs [by contrast with say Sharia law as I noted already], but a question of the limits of democratic civil society’s umbrella of protections and freedoms in the context of those who have declared intent to undermine and destroy the same. (For relevantly parallel instance, in Germany and Austria, Nazism is very sharply restricted.)

    In the case in view, a Jan 19 Jerusalem Post report, “Balad, UAL appeal ban in High Court,” informs us:

    >> Balad and United Arab List-Ta’al, the two Arab parties that were disqualified from running in February’s elections, filed an appeal on Monday with the High Court of Justice.

    Attorneys Hassan Jabareen and Orna Kohn of Adalah, the Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, filed the appeal on behalf of the Arab parties, which stated that the central elections committee “violated the rules of natural justice and ignored [Attorney-General Menahem Mazuz’s] legal opinion, according to which there is no evidence to justify preventing the participation of the two lists in the Knesset elections.” . . . . In 2003, the committee disqualified both Tibi, who was still with UAL-Ta’al, and the Balad party, from participating in parliamentary elections that year, but the High Court of Justice canceled those decisions. >>

    In short, there is a history here, and the rights protection system is at work; with the government’s Attorney General in the corner of the parties that a Committee has voted to ban.

    So, the case illustrates that there are issues and concerns, and that Arab Citizens of Israel — even in controversial cases — have precisely the legal rights that I have listed above.

    5] Outcome of the case, Jan 21:

    Even more interesting is the following from Y’net news, Jan 21, headlined “Arab parties win disqualification appeal “:

    >> The High Court of Justice overturned Wednesday the Central Elections Committee’s decision to disqualify the Arab parties, Balad and United Arab List-Ta’al from taking part in the next Knesset race.

    The Central Elections Committee explained its decision by saying that since neither party recognized Israel as the Jewish homeland, they were not eligible to bid in the nearing general elections . . . >>

    In short, we have seen the rights process at work on the behalf of even plainly controversial Arab citizens and parties of Israel.

    That is, T has again cited less than half of a story — finding and linking what is plainly a one-sided report that seemingly supports his narrative, and in a context where he has again failed to do his homework on what happened next — even within a few days.

    ‘Nuff said.

    And, remember, the days-count on the substantial, and un-addressed issue is now fast coming up on a full two days.

    GEM of TKI

    Loading…
20. 

    Dictionary

    January 25, 2009 at 9:57 pm

    
    

    Carlos:

    Thanks.

    Let us hope T will first recognise his breaches of civility, apologise and then attend to the balance of the issues on the merits of fact and cogent, logical reasoning.

    Especially the relevant logic of abduction: inference to best explanation anchored by factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory elegance and power: neither simplistic nor ad hoc.

    Israel has its sins, as do all nations [cf Ezekiel 35 – 39, esp 36, for a God’s-eye view on this!], but it is simply not the fascist-racist genocidal monster that T et al portray. And, I would think that the linked BBC news interview with a British commander experienced in the region will give a significant balance to how the recent Gaza campaign is being routinely portrayed.

    Let us not forget Aristotle’s warning, with the sad fate of Socrates hovering in his mind: >> our judgements when we are pleased and friendly are not as those we make when we are pained and hostile.>>

    So, let us beware those who use divisive and uncivil rhetoric. For, down that road lie many destructively mistaken judgements and injustice.

    Also, Bible believing Christians in our region are often simple people who are not equipped or fully informed to address the details — and too often, deceptions and half truths — of international affairs. But their instincts are often quite sound.

    I happen to be a Bible-believing Christian [per Ac 17:16 – 34], and one who has some relevant knowledge.

    Having had this blog thread brought to my attention, I have thought a few balancing remarks are in order.

    While — on long experience — I am not surprised to be met with half truths and ad hominems as above, I find this a disappointing sign of where civil society in Barbados and the wider Caribbean is evidently headed.

    Surely, we can do better than this!

    A lot better . . .

    GEM of TKI

    Loading…
21. 

    Not Saved

    January 25, 2009 at 10:20 pm

    
    

    Gem of TKI,

    were the military objectives of the IDF met?

    (why did you thank Carlos for yet another ad hominem aimed at Technician when you have berated those who employ the tactic)

    Loading…
22. 

    Not Saved

    January 25, 2009 at 10:41 pm

    
    

    so much for the claims of the British Colonel

    http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/25/gaza.legal.defense/index.html

    Loading…
23. 

    dissident

    January 25, 2009 at 10:46 pm

    
    

    Carlos, quote, “Facts , whether true or false…”

    Correct me if I’m wrong but it there such a thing as a “false” fact? I always understood that the word ‘fact’ implied truth or accuracy or veracity of the particular thing.

    Just wondering…

    Loading…
24. 

    Not Saved

    January 25, 2009 at 10:46 pm

    
    

    GEM,

    If you think T breached civility, you obviously missed a lot of posts by Carlos

    that man became downright rude

    Loading…
25. 

    Not Saved

    January 25, 2009 at 10:56 pm

    
    

    Dissident,

    I too wondered why a “false fact” needed to be “honestly and objectively interpeted”

    Loading…
26. 

    Not Saved

    January 25, 2009 at 11:15 pm

    
    

    From Noam Chomsky (born to Jewish parents)……….

    Thirty years ago Chief of Staff Mordechai Gur observed that since 1948, “we have been fighting against a population that lives in villages and cities.” As Israel’s most prominent military analyst, Zeev Schiff, summarized his remarks, “the Israeli Army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously … the Army, he said, has never distinguished civilian [from military] targets … [but] purposely attacked civilian targets.” The reasons were explained by the distinguished statesman Abba Eban: “there was a rational prospect, ultimately fulfilled, that affected populations would exert pressure for the cessation of hostilities.”

    Loading…
27. 

    Not Saved

    January 25, 2009 at 11:26 pm

    
    

    Also from Chomsky……..

    One of the wisest voices in Israel, Uri Avnery, writes that after an Israeli military victory,

    “What will be seared into the consciousness of the world will be the image of Israel as a blood-stained monster, ready at any moment to commit war crimes and not prepared to abide by any moral restraints. This will have severe consequences for our long-term future, our standing in the world, our chance of achieving peace and quiet. In the end, this war is a crime against ourselves too, a crime against the State of Israel.”

    Loading…
28. 

    Technician

    January 26, 2009 at 12:33 am

    
    

    @ Gem of TKI….

    Do you remember asking me for an apology on other threads…my answer remains the same …HELL NO!!!

    I will never apologize to you or any one else of your ilk, you have not made a point that I cant refute but how can I when everything I have posted is dismissed by you and Carlos.

    You are both biased towards Israel as it compliments your beliefs and faith in prophecy being fulfilled.

    I do not have the time to post those long ass pieces, I rather get to the point and deal with the facts.

    If you or Carlos really think that what is happening now is really from years ago…keep fooling yourself.The US support of the Zionist state is recent, compared to your history.
    What you see happening now is strictly political.

    You both call yourselves Christian….what a laugh, you both defend a Nation along biblical lines and history, a Nation whose believers dont even have shit to do with your God…another joke.

    I guess the wp shells used against the poor civilians, against the rules of war, are more lies .

    I guess the state sponsored assassinations of democratically elected officials are also untruths and propaganda.

    I guess the bombing of UN schools is another untruth.

    Over 1000 dead, 25% children…more lies.

    My quotes are from people who have a different opinion, therefore they are false, yours are from Zionists, so it is gospel.

    Quite frankly, I have had enough of your rhetoric ….so as usual I will take the highway because your way is…well.

    Loading…
29. 

    Dictionary

    January 26, 2009 at 5:37 am

    
    

    Onlookers:

    First, it is quite evident that we are dealing with utter uncivility on the part of some commenters.

    In particular, T, you have in effect called me a liar. I have corrected you on facts. You now resort to vulgarities in refusing to do what a decent gentleman would do on such correction.

    That tells us all we need to know about you, sir.

    Sadly.

    GEM of TKI

    Loading…
30. 

    Technician

    January 26, 2009 at 7:03 am

    
    

    Well….all of us are not ‘Christians’ like you, therefore we all can not be perfect.

    It is amazing that you come on this thread near the end and preach to us about civility, when in earlier posts, your brother in arms Carlos shows that he too is also lacking.
    I really dont know who you think you are to insist on an apology or to sit in judgment of me but if that turns you on …so be it.
    IMHO, you are a liar and that is my opinion, whether you like it or not.
    I dont live by your standards and what I choose to believe is entirely up to me.

    This thread started dealing with the conflict as it is now. Both you and Carlos turned it into a sermon to push your agenda, when others like myself disagree, we were call all sorts of names by Carlos.
    Now you want to look down your nose on me with you pompous, arrogant attitude and think I will conform?

    You ‘Christians’ are really something else.

    Vulgarities……..ass….shit..hmmm.

    Loading…
31. 

    Dictionary

    January 26, 2009 at 7:09 am

    
    

    Now on matters of substance:

    I see a reference to a CNN article “Israel prepares legal defense of soldiers” cited as though this undercuts decisively the BBC interview with a British Colonel I linked yesterday.

    So, let’s read:

    >>JERUSALEM (CNN) — Israel’s government on Sunday approved a measure that will give legal protection to its military officers if they are accused of war crimes during the Gaza incursion, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said.

    “The state of Israel will completely back anyone that acted in its name,” Olmert said Sunday at the beginning of the weekly Cabinet meeting. “The soldiers and commanders that were sent on missions in Gaza need to know that they are safe from different tribunals.

    “Israel will assist them and protect them as they physically protected us during the operation in Gaza,” he said.

    A team of legal experts, led by Justice Minister Daniel Friedman, will defend Israel’s military operation in Gaza, according to Olmert. Friedman and international law experts will formulate answers to possible questions regarding the activity of the Israel Defense Forces that might arise, he said.

    The Israeli government — particularly the Defense and Justice ministries — is concerned that Israeli military officers could be singled out in future lawsuits alleging human rights violations during Israel’s recent offensive against Hamas, according to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz. >>

    In short, the CNN article does not at all contradict the BBC interview with Col Richard Kemp.

    Instead it reveals (albeit in a one-sideed way) the latest battleground in C21 war: the need to defend soldiers in international tribunals from very expensive court cases brought in the same demonising spirit as we have so abundantly seen above. (There is a serious question of politically motivated, ill-founded accusations of war crimes that if it is allowed to succeed will sooner rather than later utterly undermine the credibility of the recently set up international courts; but that is a matter for another day.)

    Now, too, I find it interesting that the article *begins* the story with the Israeli retaliatory strike. It thus fails to mention a crucial context: that over the past several years something like 8 – 10,000 mortar bombs and rockets have been fired into Israel from Gaza, targetting civilians and gradually ramping up in range to now reach Beersheba, in the neighbourhood of Israel’s Dimona nuclear centre.

    These are acts of war and war crimes, sustained over the better part of a decade by an internationally declared terrorist entity, Hamas. One that has — by charter [cf clause 7 and the cited hadith on Jew slaughter above] — committed itself to religiously motivated genocide of Jews. And, all in a context where since 2005 the defensive occupation of Gaza dating to the 1967 war, has been ended; and one in which the remaining issues on the W bank are in a similar context of terrorism repeatedly derailing reasonable compromise.

    Worse, from 2000, the Dennis Ross compromise put on the table all that the Palestinian Arabs could *reasonably* ask for in light ofr issues that — very relevantly date back to 1919 and before and even to 2 – 3,000 years ago in some aspects:

    a –> 97% of WB with compensating land elsewhere,

    b –> E Jerusalem as capital, and control of Temple Mt,

    c –> 100% of Gaza,with a highway corridor connecting to the W bank, and

    d –> massive financial support and compensations.

    ARAFAT WALKED AWAY, strongly indicating that the real agenda — as Hamas has put into its official charter in so many words — is driving Jews out of their ancestral homeland in the Middle East amidst much slaughter. GENOCIDE, in one word.

    And that to be followed — per other hadiths and similarly structured claims including against us here in the Caribbean — by global conquest under the triumphant black flag armies of the mahdi.

    Onlookers, notice how these and other highly relevant contextual facts are being passed over in a convenient silence, in the above in the rush to reinforce a one sided narrative. One compounded by insistent indulgence in personal attacks against those who raise such inconvenient facts as the Dennis Ross 2000 compromise and the genocide and global conquest hadiths that are embedded in IslamISM.

    Hamas has compounded all of the above by using the civilians of Gaza as human shields, in order to carry out a so-called “CNN Strategy.”

    Namely, when Arab civilians used as human shields die as a result of counter strikes [and BTW, the casualty numbers released under the control of Hamas will be dubious], the “bloody flag” is then waved in front of the international media and public.

    Finally, there are in fact some specific allegations in the article that need follow up:

    >> U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has demanded an independent investigation into Israeli military actions that damaged U.N. facilities in Gaza. Israel is alleged to have used white phosphorous shells which sparked a massive fire at the U.N. humanitarian compound.

    The use of white phosphorus is restricted under international law. >>

    On these we can note:

    1] The International Committee of the Red Cross states in a Jan 13 AP report that appeared internationally, but was not referenced in the CNN article: >> The international Red Cross said Tuesday that Israel has fired white phosphorus shells in its offensive in the Gaza Strip, but has no evidence to suggest the incendiary agent is being used improperly or illegally . . . . “In some of the strikes in Gaza it’s pretty clear that phosphorus was used,” Herby told The Associated Press. “But it’s not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it’s being used in any other way.”

    In response, the Israeli military said Tuesday that it “wishes to reiterate that it uses weapons in compliance with international law, while strictly observing that they be used in accordance with the type of combat and its characteristics.” >>

    2] So, while it is possible that a stray WP round or two did ignite fires at a UN compound, the immediate one- sided inference to deliberate war crimes is highly dubious. (Observe: we hear of no parallel intent to prosecute Hamas’ leadership and military commanders or Iranian backers for several years of what is in effect harassing artillery fire directed at civilians in civilian communities. That almost casual one-sidedness at the highest International levels is deeply revealing.)

    3] In the case of the school compound in which, sadly, several dozens of innocents died, it is evident that Hamas terrorist rocketeers and mortar bombers used that school’s facilities and similar sites as a launch platform or as storage sites for rocketing attacks on Israeli civilians; so that the resultant casualties are in the main due to the Hamas war crime of using human shields. Indeed, there are disturbing reports that civilians — including children — may have been forced into such sites by Hamas, upon the receipt of leaflets or phone messages that designated target zones were to be evacuated — an almost unprecedented sacrifice of surprise to reduce risks to innocents. So, I think a reasonable observer would see that the now common accusation of Israelis deliberately targetting innocents in schools is dubious and demonising.

    4] Similarly, the actual evidence we just saw is that the Israeli army has seriously sought to AVOID civilian deaths to the extent that is reasonably possible, as the British Colonel underscored in his BBC interview. (And, BTW, one of the subtleties in the narrative is that deaths of Hamas-linked militant activists — some of whom are teenagers of both sexes — are being constantly lumped together with deaths of non-combattants. We also are very soon forgetting the long since videotaped childhood terrorism summer camps programmes that seek to militarise young children. )

    I could go on and on and on.

    But, such would be pointless.

    For, it is now very plain that we are dealing with the now deeply entrenched Saul Alinski’s Rules for Radical agitprop rhetorical tactics that just decided a US presidential election and linked international, bioethics, economic, family values and public policy policy issues by cleverly manipulating perceptions and emotions.

    So, let us simply excerpt a bit and call it George at that — astute observers have more than enough evidence to see what the balance on the actual merits is, and can easily see that there is a refusal to be civil on one side.

    So, sadly, it is now time “to send some folks to Coventry,” after a quote or two from one of their intellectual ancestors:

    Saul Alinski: >> “The end is what you want, the means is how you get it. Whenever we think about social change, the question of means and ends arises. The man of action views the issue of means and ends in pragmatic and strategic terms . . . He asks of ends only whether they are achievable and worth the cost; of means, only whether they will work.” p.24 [In one word, *Machiavellianism*: “Ends justify means” No, they do not!]

    “…the organizer must be able to split himself into two parts — one part in the arena of action where he polarizes the issue to 100 to nothing, and helps to lead his forces into conflict, while the other part knows that when the time comes for negotiations that it really is only a 10 percent difference.” p.78 [In other words, deceptive and polarising beyond what is reasonable.]

    Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and ‘frozen.’ … When your ‘freeze the target,’ you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments and carry out your attack…. One acts decisively only in the conviction that all the angles are on one side and all the devils on the other.” pp.127-134 [In other words uncivil and unwarrantedly destructive to the reputation of others]>>

    Sounds familiar?

    Sadly, it should!

    So now, we know the *why* of the uncivil tactics being routinely used above by those who spent so much time bashing away at Israel, Jews and Christians.

    Let me expose the resulting ethical reductio ad absurdum by simply contrasting John Locke’s citation of “the judicious [Richard] Hooker” as he set out to ground and found modern liberty and democracy, in Ch 2 sect 5 of his 2nd essay on civil Govt:

    >> . . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . *my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection.* From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant. [Cf Rom 13:8 – 10 and Matt 7:12 in light of Leviticus 19:15 – 18] >>
    ____________

    Good day, onlookers — enough has now been said. We can see where the incivility so abundantly documented above is heading, and we can see the contrast between the case in context on the merits and the polarising narratives “we the sheeple” are being so assiduously fed with day by day.

    So, onlookers, we have some decisions to make on the future of our civilisation. . .

    GEM of TKI

    Loading…
32. 

    Dictionary

    January 26, 2009 at 7:14 am

    
    

    PS: In a Rules for Radicals world, we would be very naive to take any major international or regional news or views medium as generally trustworthy. I suggest that we become very cautious in the positions we adopt on international, ethical or policy affairs or even science. Interested onlookers may therefore want to consult the “grading the media” grid here:

    http://www.angelfire.com/pro/kairosfocus/resources/straight_or_spin.htm

    Loading…
33. 

    Dictionary

    January 26, 2009 at 7:22 am

    
    

    PPS: Technician, I pause before walking out.

    I will not indulge a flame war, but instead must remind you of the first rule of holes — if you want to get out, stop digging in deeper.

    You have already shown us all that your credibility is nil [including when you seek to distract attention from what has happened above when you effectively and unjustifiably called me a liar and refused to apologise, with vulgarity tossed into the refusal). Now, you make it plain that you wish to excuse your habitual incivility by implying that I am a hypocrite to call you out on what now has to be seen as willful false accusation.

    Please, please, do better than that.

    GEM of TKI

    Loading…
34. 

    Technician

    January 26, 2009 at 7:54 am

    
    

    Have a good day sir.

    Loading…
35. 

    Anonymous

    January 26, 2009 at 9:14 am

    
    

    Thanks for the link…….it shows your true bias.

    Loading…
36. 

    Anonymous

    January 26, 2009 at 9:35 am

    
    

    “The US support of the Zionist state is recent”

    “My quotes are from people who have a different opinion, therefore they are false, yours are from Zionists”

    “You ‘Christians’ are really something else.”

    “I dont live by your standards”

    “Vulgarities……..ass….shit..hmmm”

    ****
    Are you living in Barbados, T? Why don’t you contribute to compromised, thoughtful solutions from a Bajan perspective, be less hatred-filled, instead of trying to prolongue a war from your armchair?

    Should the world live by *your* standards? What if it won’t and you have to compromise re Israel, or will ensuing results be a continued war until the *Zionists* go away?

    Why do you constantly refer to Israelis and/or Jews, or people who believe that Israel should survive… as….. …Zionists?

    Do you think that war in Gaza is worth doing over? Where are you taking this thread if not back to war?

    Or is his a game for you to *try* to teach people your ways here in Barbados? I hope people read this fact and understand what is happening here.

    Peace
    by way of mutual acceptance and compromise!

    Loading…
37. 

    Carlos

    January 26, 2009 at 10:53 am

    
    

    Yes, GEM of TKI, ‘Facts are stubborn things, and only the (willfully) stubborn, have chosen to reject them.”

    Dissident: ‘Carlos, quote, “Facts, whether true or false..’ Correct me if I’m wrong but is there such a thing as a ‘false’ fact? I always understood that the word ‘fact’ implied truth or accuracy or varacity of the particular thing. Just wondering…’

    I used the phrase ‘Facts, whether true or false’ against the background of 60 years of relentless, ‘Turnspeak’ cleverly employed by the Arabs, especially Arafat, the PLO et al., to poison the world’s perception of the reality of the Israli/Palestine conflict, by cynical inversion and twisting of the ‘facts’ in order to deceive the uninformed masses of people, who for the most part, have ‘ignorantly’ (lacking knowledge and understanding) believed these so-called ‘facts’ as as wickedly perpetuated by the Arabs; which must then be honestly, objectively, and logically analysed in order to arrive at reasonable, truthful conclusions.

    Trusting, that you understand this reasonable explanation…

    Loading…
38. 

    Hopi

    January 26, 2009 at 11:12 am

    
    

    @All zionists lapdogs&christian armageddonists…………

    You need to stop spewing your endtrails here. You speak of something of which you know absolutely nothing. You are feeding at the trough of the news media i.e BBC, CNN, FOX, NBC & CBS which are all owned and controlled by the same zionists bloodletters who are murdering the Palestinians. What kind of beings could you be to see all this destruction and suffering right before your damn eyes and you still think that these bloody pigs have right to do as they please and still be revered as ‘God’s chosen.’ Are you people mad or drunk or are you still suffering from PTSD of slavery. The world ought to be ashamed of itself for allowing this depreciation of humanity. IT STINKS, IT STINKS and no quote from a bible or any other book can justify this EVIL.Since 1948, this shit has been going on and today its coming to a head. I say to IRAN and all other people in that region of a higher conscience to STAND UP and TOGETHER AGAINST this EVIL known as ZIONISM. For all those of you who support them and think that they are such good people go and check out their Talmud in which they say that it is okay TO HAVE SEX WITH AN INFANT CHILD. And see how much they love the GOYIM. Before you attack me go and check it out. This is the scum that you all support. And by the way BLACKS also died in Hitler’s hellhole as well not just ‘jews.’

    …..Anonymous…..It is of utmost importance that the people in Barbados are aware of what is going on in their world because it does affect them. The tentacles of this zionist octopus are spread out all over this planet. Those that resist them are labelled terrorists and the world must hate them and love the real zionist-terrorists.There can be NO compromise between Palestine and ‘israel’ because the latter doesn not want peace. Let them go back to the KHAZAR mountains from whence they came another Ghengis Khan will take care of them.

    Loading…
39. 

    Fool

    January 26, 2009 at 11:25 am

    
    

    “There can be NO compromise between Palestine and ‘israel’ because”……………………………………………………………….”Let them go back from whence they came”……..

    Fool’s reprise: There can be compromise, even when insane.

    Peace!

    Loading…
40. 

    Anonymous

    January 26, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    
    

    @ Anon….

    The word Zionist is not used as a racial slur…….do your homework.

    Loading…
41. 

    Technician

    January 26, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    
    

    @Anonymous

    Are you serious??

    Where have I said anything about my standards being the ones to go by?

    Where in any of my posts is there hate?

    I just dont agree with all the anti -Arab rhetoric and all I show is that Israel themselves are just as much to blame.
    Some here just cannot accept this and have gone to great lengths to prove their point.
    At the end of the day, the fact still remains, above all the rhetoric, that both sides in the conflict are at fault, not just one.
    Christians will always side with Israel, but this doesnt make it right.
    Some of the most horrible things done to man were done with the blessing of the church and under the guise of christianity too.
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion whether right or wrong or good or bad.Who are we to judge.
    Christians will come with the Bible rhetoric but who is to say that this is absolute truth?
    What if, this whole bible stuff is really a myth but has been accepted by many as gospel….what if??

    Because I dont agree with this

    Loading…
42. 

    Technician

    January 26, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    
    

    Thae anon post above this is mine…different pc.

    Loading…
43. 

    Fool

    January 26, 2009 at 1:28 pm

    
    

    “At the end of the day, the fact still remains, above all the rhetoric, that both sides in the conflict are at fault, not just one”

    T, I see you are now back-peddling because I am copying down and pasting your quotes for you to see.

    Be that as it may, ‘at the end of the day’, perhaps you and I can sit down, have a cup of tea, and find some real-life solutions together, rather than Israel/Jew/*Zionist* bashing.

    I will sit with you and drink tea, perhaps we can find a way. Shall we try?

    Peace.

    Loading…
44. 

    Dissident

    January 26, 2009 at 3:46 pm

    
    

    Carlos, thanks for your explanation of your use of the term “false…facts.” I was asking more from a logical standpoint because the term “false facts” seems to me to be a logical absurdity/oxymoron/non-sequitur.

    I accept that “information” can be “spun” to come to any desired outcome, but then it is mere “information” not “fact.”

    Hair-splitting? Maybe! But there are an awful lot of words that are used on this forum, and I try to be careful with my use of words and “facts.”

    Loading…
45. 

    Technician

    January 26, 2009 at 5:20 pm

    
    

    @ Fool…

    LOL !!

    I dont see it as me back peddling as I am well aware of what I have posted before on this forum. Maybe I have deviated from the main intent at times due to other, external forces … 🙂 ..but as you say , maybe we can sit and and find some real-life solutions together, as long as you respect my opinion and I yours without trying to shove your beliefs down my throat or I yours.
    Maybe we should consider inviting GP ( a man I respect ) to the sitting.
    Respect.

    Loading…
46. 

    ROK

    January 26, 2009 at 6:11 pm

    
    

    When will this stop? The Israelis are not descendants of the Hebrews or the Israelites or the Jews. What is this foolishness about Israelis being God’s people? Never was and more than likely, never will be.

    Loading…
47. 

    ROK

    January 26, 2009 at 6:13 pm

    
    

    Dissident = correct

    Loading…
48. 

    ROK

    January 26, 2009 at 6:23 pm

    
    

    Dissident

    How can you speak of false facts? Let Carlos use English and speak about propaganda. There is no hair splitting here. “False facts” is a total absurdity. Rather than admit he made a mistake, he come with a bogus explanation.

    This definition of propaganda aptly describes Carlos’ MO to the ‘T’:
    “Propaganda is the dissemination of information aimed at influencing the opinions or behaviors of large numbers of people. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense presents information in order to influence its audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or gives loaded messages in order to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the cognitive narrative of the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

    Loading…
49. 

    Fool

    January 26, 2009 at 6:40 pm

    
    

    Ok with me. We can live comfortably as neighbours. I have always done so in Barbados at my home. Opinions never hurt anyone, so let substantive talks begin.

    Loading…
50. 

    Carlos

    January 26, 2009 at 7:56 pm

    
    

    ROK: I made NO mistake, I specifically used the term ‘false facts’, yes, logically, it is an absurdity.

    BUT, because Arafat, the PLO and other Arabs over the last 60 years have vehemently used this ‘PROPAGANDA’ ploy in disseminating ‘LIES’ about Israel being the ‘aggressor’ and ‘occupier’ of their land, the clever use of ‘TURNSPEAK’ the mother of all ‘lies’ a cynical inverting, twisting, and corruption of ‘facts’ which they then presented as ‘facts’ misinformation believed by most, who bought into this mother of all LIES, as you correctly quoted:

    “(thus lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or gives loaded messages in order to produce an emotional rather than rational response to information presented. The desired result IS a change of the cognitive narrative of the subject in the target audience to further political gain.”

    Exactly SO, precisely SO, the intended purpose for which Arafat, et al., used ‘TURNSPEAK’ relentlessly, LIES, LIES, and more LIES, which has been accepted as ‘factual’ information, hence ‘false facts’ as to the person(s) who don’t know the truth, it is believed as facts, albiet FALSE FACTS!!!

    Is this too hard to understand???

    Loading…