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Is This The Start Of World War III?

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Submitted by Bush Tea on January 1, 2009

Bush Tea has noted the ominous silence of the BU family on the most recent events in the mid east, where the brilliantly logical Israelis are again employing their often tried tactic of bombing and killing their neighbours into co-operation. Clearly their strategists are banking on the hope that this approach MUST work eventually –especially after decades of failure. (Submitted on January 1, 2009 but was not picked-up by BU, sorry about that Bush Tea – David)

Clearly this is a situation, which has been refined by the US republican party, where in the lead-up to a national election, unpopular governments seek to rally national support for a ‘war’ against some unfortunate common foe –preferably someone who can be labelled a ‘terrorist’.

The Israeli plan is obviously to build up the usual hype, kill a few Hamas ‘terrorist’ – and their collateral family members behind whom they are hiding (in their homes) and wait for the USA to protect them in the UN while a face saving ‘truce’ is negotiated.

The ruling party now confirmed at home and by the USA as ‘strong on terror’ and ‘able to protect the country’ would then be re-elected.

That is the plan. Here is the reality.

The current operation by Israel is going to finally bring the militant Palestinian forces together. (This happened 2 years ago in Lebanon for Hezbollah – but that seem to have been forgotten by Israel – or maybe the incumbent party is REALLY desperate).

This will result in the overthrow –this year- of ALL of the pro-western governments in the region –Egypt, Saudi Arabia…. ALL….

A VERY powerful strongman will then emerge, powered by the unifying force generated by this current (and previous) Israeli action, by the USA’s Iraq debacle, by control of huge oil reserves, access to very sophisticated weapons and an ideology fuelled by revenge and war.

The next New Year will be a very bleak one…. And Israel will pay a HUGE price for this approach to neighbour relations. Where is George Washington when he is needed? Is it not he who said that the best way to destroy your enemies is to make them into your friends????

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474 responses to “Is This The Start Of World War III?”

  1. Dictionary Avatar
    Dictionary

    PS: I will provide some documentation on the jihad – dhimmitude issue, as a point of corrective reference to those inclined to promulgate or believe the myth of real equality and justice under Sharia rule:

    1 –> An interview with Bat Ye’or [the leading scholar who has documented the problem of Apartheid-like dhimmitude]:

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/1998/sepoct/8b5038.html

    2 –> Her 2002 Brown University C.V. Starr Foundation Lecture, which provides meatier details and academic documentation [NB: she has written several major academic books on the subject, one that we in the Caribbean, unhappily, now have to make our acquaintance with]:

    http://www.dhimmitude.org/archive/by_lecture_10oct2002.htm

    ________

    PPS: I see an attempt to again go out on yet another red herring track; in a context where T again ignores or refuses to acknowledge his duty of apology and amending of ways for uncivil, atmosphere-poisoning slander and vulgarity.

    On that, I simply note that God, in the Judaeo-Christian frame — and even that of enlightened pagans — “him in whom we live, move and have our being.” [Paul here cites Cleanthes in Ac 17.]

    So, God is present every-where and every-when: the future to us is not veiled to him. So, he can tell us what is future to us, simply by observing it; i.e T’s Kismet [he sounds ever-more like one waging the Jihad of pen and tongue . . . or else as a dhimmi taken in by that jihad by rhetorical manipulation of the ill-informed] is simply irrelevant.

    And, the good Rev’d Doctor just above would be well advised to remind himself of Jeremiah 18, which shows that Yaweh’s prophecies on the fates of the nations are all implicitly conditional, e.g.:

    >> Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it. >>

    So, a nation is not irrevocably consigned to blessing or destruction, but STUBBORN INSISTENCE ON SINFUL FOLLY WILL REMOVE BLESSINGS AND LEAD TO DESTRUCTION.

    Indeed, that is just what the Word of The Potter’s House [which BTW is a hermeneutical key to understanding prophecies, and is not irrelevant to say Wolfhart Pannenberg’s very interesting discussion on conditional elements in the covenantal election of peoples under God] went on to say:

    >> 11 “Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the LORD says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions.’>>

    In short, prophecies are in part given by way of warning, so that nations may turn from destruction. As, the whole Book of Jonah records in the case of an ENEMY of God’s covenantal people of Israel. (The exchange God has with Jonah in Ch 4:1 – 10 is a classic on this, crf http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jonah%204;&version=31; )

    But, alas, israel in Jeremiah’s day would not listen tot he warnings of the weeping prophet, and even sought to kill him. Here is God’s further complaint:

    >>Jer 18: 12 But they will reply, ‘It’s no use. We will continue with our own plans; each of us will follow the stubbornness of his evil heart.’ ” >>

    Obviously, God disagrees with such excuses for persisting in the march of folly!

    And so, oh Caribbean: will we turn back from folly before it is too late?

    Indeed, here is the blessing of the nations that receive the Seed of Abraham, the answer to all curses, real or imagined:

    >> Gal 3:3Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”[f] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. [The Spirit of God, who draws us to God, liberates us in him, empowers us and opens the Word of God to us, is the gateway to all blessings in God.]>>

    The choice, oh Caribbean, is ours.

    GEM of TKI

  2. Dictionary Avatar
    Dictionary

    PPPS: I have noted on links on dhimmitude, and have remarked on the free will vs march of folly by referring to Jer 18. In mod pile, so kindly be patient.

  3. Rev Dr. Dick Hertz Avatar
    Rev Dr. Dick Hertz

    Carlos and Gem

    I have enormous difficulty with the concept of free will and a God that knows what I’m going to do even before I do it! How free am I if my options have been predetermined? Gem of TKI presents a more interesting position. Prophecy being a logical predicted result of certain actions. We can all predict future outcomes with a relatively high success rate but not with a perfect record (which would be a god’s domain!) Shades of Gem’s first love (quantum mechanics) maybe?

  4. Dictionary Avatar
    Dictionary

    Okay:

    I was babysitting a printer, and came by. I will entertain Dr Hertz just a bit. (This will give time for those needing to read up on dhimmitude and related issues.)

    Dr Hertz, if one sits at the N pole, s/he is simultaneously N. of ALL points along the surface of the Earth.

    Take that as an analogy of how God can be at “time’s N Pole.” So, the future is the future to US, not to Him: he instantly accesses every-where and every-when. In that context, he has made a world in which we may have minds for ourselves — as is our direct and immediate experience [and without which coherence of mind itself collapses — without real choice, we cannot make LOGICAL choices (and that focus on choice is the wisdom in the Gk root for LOGOS)].

    So, it makes empirical and logical sense to accept choice as real, not the mere product of chance and/or necessity of inexorable force acting on preset initial conditions and rolling out predictably a la P S Laplace’s master mechanician Demon.

    But at the same time, actions do have consequences: once I hit key S, a chain of onward effects will play out sometimes traceably, sometimes untraceably, but observably.

    And in a world with a moral order, moral actions have consequences, including predictable ones. Some of them by how our choices, resentments and rages shape our behaviour, and the general results that are likely to emerge therefrom, which in turn has physical and social consequences. E.g. hubris is its own worst enemy. ignorance that imagines it knows and can dismiss contrary facts as “lies” is not likely to get very far. And our judgements and action that are driven by manipulated emotions of resentful rage are liable to be utterly unwise and destructive. hence some of the warnings in teh Proverbs and the wider ME wisdom literature that it places in a hebraic, covenantal context ofg nationhood under God.

    In particular, righteousness exalts a nation and sin is a disgrace to any people. truthfuloness brings blessing and deception becomes the ruin of a society that tries to live by lies — indeed, that is a part of what Kant used to identify evils in his Categorical Imperative.

    So, free actions can have predictable and even all but unavoidable consequences, once we reach a certain critical social mass. Which, BTW, is part of why I am concerned that we avoid falling into manipulative narratives on the ME situation and/or begin to assume we know when we do not know enough to really understand [cf my 1919 test and the names Wiezmann and Feisal Hussein], as I point out above.

    But while we may predict, God directly knows outcomes. And he knows the dynamics at work perfectly. So when he warns of destruction and we repent, his promise of restoration is a hope for even a civilisation as far gone towards self-destruction as ours currently is.

    So, we can have free choice on actions, but not a simultaneous disconnect between actions and consequences. So, which impulses will we heed: our better angels or the urges that we know or should know, will drag us down to ruin.

    Thus the urgent, life-saving priority of wisdom, guided by the virtues that lead us to the path of seeking and living by the truth, in love.

    And thus, the challenge we face in our time.

    GEM of TKI

  5. Carlos Avatar
    Carlos

    Yes, Rev.Dr. Dick, “How free am I if my ‘options’ have been predetermined?”

    The operative word in your question is ‘options’ which is grounded in ‘choice’ free will, either come God’s way and have true ‘life’ which begins here and now, when we repent and by ‘faith’ reasonable faith, accept and receive Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord.

    The other option, IS to remain estranged from God’s mercy, grace and love, by ‘choice’ and continue to be lost.

    The point is, that none of this was ‘predetermined’ but, already ‘known’ by Almighty God in His Omniscience, there is a vast difference between what is claimed as ‘predestination’ without choice, as opposed to God omnisciently knowing what your and my choice will be, even before we ultimately make that choice.

    Example, if God knows you will eventually accept His offer of Salvation in, by, and through Jesus, He can then so order events, circumstances, etc., that will work in your favor, without in anyway violating the ‘free will’ of others, and yours as well.

  6. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    Rev. Dr. Dick Hertz said…
    *************************************
    Touchdown Technician! If we have free will then how can there be prophecy? According to the theologians, the dice is loaded so no matter what we do the outcome is already determined (how else could there be prophecy?).
    *************************************

    Understanding the concept of prophecy becomes very simple if we understand that life on earth as we know it is really just a physical special project that has been created by the Big Boss Engineers (BBE/ God) who are spiritual masters of the REAL reality that is LIFE.

    When this project was conceived, the plan was to create a special environment, with temporary (human) beings, created in the image of their makers, BUT SUBJECT TO CONSTRAINTS OF SPACE AND TIME.

    The project requires that humans have freedom of choice, options of choosing between good and evil, and freedom from excessive interference by external (spiritual) forces.

    Now obviously BBE, not being constrained by time or space, have no issues with such concepts as ‘the future’ or the ‘unknown’. Hence being able to detail events ‘in our future’ is just a “nobrainer” for BBE.

    Prophecy is therefore not a prescription of what HAS to happen, but a preview for us MMEs of what will happen, made by advance beings who knows all- because they are already there -so to speak.
    (MME=Micro Mock Engineer)

    The REALLY interesting questions are
    -What is the objective of the project?
    -Where are we in the time line?

  7. another view Avatar
    another view

    Where are we in the time line?

    Very close to the end of time down here.

    The rapture will soon occur, then the issues described in Revelation 6 and following will rapidly occur.

  8. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @Carlos
    *************************************
    Example, if God knows you will eventually accept His offer of Salvation in, by, and through Jesus, He can then so order events, circumstances, etc., that will work in your favor, without in anyway violating the ‘free will’ of others, and yours as well.
    *************************************
    I know that your heart is in the right place, but you need to know that it does not quite work like that.
    While BBE does intervene on rare occasions, it generally takes “the effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man” to achieve such intervention.

    What BBE has done is to implement a set of spiritual laws which regulate life on earth. These laws are fixed, constant and unyielding.

    Basically, one reaps as one sows.

    Indeed one may sow the wind and reap the whirlwind…. as our business gurus are currently discovering.

    Conversely, one who sows good and pursues right(eousness), will reap appropriate rewards -BOTH here during the project, and likely as a graduate in the coming next phase.

  9. Carlos Avatar
    Carlos

    Bush Tea; said, “I know your heart is in the right place, but you need to know that it does not work like that.”

    BT, I think you misunderstood me, as I was speaking in the context of ‘free’ will, vis-a-vis God’s Omniscience in knowing who ‘will’ choose to accept and receive Jesus as Saviour, against those who choose NOT to believe, again exercising their volitional ‘choice’ against such acceptance of God’s Universial offer of Salvation to all mankind!

    Therefore, your reference to (James. 5:16b) “…it generally takes ‘the effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man’ to achieve such intervention, is not relevant to this discussion of ‘free’ will, and God’s Omniscience.

    James is addressing meeting specific needs within the ‘Church’ of already ‘Justified’ believers, i.e., the sick who are in need of prayer, hence, the, “Confess your trespasses to one another, (believers) and pray for one another, that you may be healed, (For) The effective fevent prayer of a righteous (justified believer) man avails much.” (James. 5:16).

    No one has any inherent ‘righteousness’ as this word, rightly applies only to the Eternal Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    However, when a person, truly repents, and receives The Lord Jesus Christ, by faith, into their life and heart, IT IS only at that point of ‘spiritual’ regeneration, that their are ‘imputed’ with the ‘Righteousness’ of Christ, therefore any rewards for ‘good’ works, now and specifically in the context of ‘righteousness, is only applicable to the ‘justified’ believer, as the ‘unsaved’ have no righteousness at all, but, the ‘Saved’ have been ‘imputed’ with the righteousness of Christ.

    “For He (God the Father) made Him (Jesus Christ) who knew NO SIN, to be sin for us, (Jesus substitutionary death on Calvary) that we (those who are Saved) might be made the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God in Him (Jesus Christ). (2 Cor. 5:21) emphasis added.

    This is why Paul could declare:

    “Therefore, having been justified (declared not guilty) by faith, we (those who are Saved), let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Rom. 5:1).

    Now, back to the concept of ‘free’ will.

    Voluntas: will; i.e., the faculty of will resident by nature in all spiritual beings; the apppetitive power (potentia appetitiva) of a spiritual being. Will is distinct from intellect (intellectus).

    In the Thomistic model, intellect stands prior as the deliberative faculty; the will does not deliberate but merely inclines toward or desires that which the intellect knows as good or true. The will, therefore, can be called the intellecual appetite (appetitus intellectualis) or a rational appetite ( appetitus rationalis).

    Will, defined as the appititive faculty in man, must be distinguished from choice (arbitrium). The WILL is the faculty that CHOOSES; arbitrium is the CAPACITY of the will to make a CHOICE or a decision. Thus, the will can be viewed as essentially free and unconstrained but, nonethless limited by its own capacity to choose particular things and, in view of the restricting and debilitating effects of SIN (peccata) is in bondage to its own fallen capacities.

    However, notwithstanding this ‘bondage’ of SIN, God has allowed us the ability, through the faculty of ‘will’ which is the ability that ‘chooses’ to MAKE that choice, to respond to Him and receive His offer of forgiveness, in, by, and through Jesus Christ. The choice is ours to make!

    We all have the ‘capacitas nolendi/capacitas volendi; ability or capacity to REFUSE or to NOT will/ability or capacity to will.

  10. Rev Dr Dick Hertz Avatar
    Rev Dr Dick Hertz

    Carlos

    your sophistry and learning has not helped to bring enlightenment to me. It appears that you are making a distinction between “free will” and “free to choose”! If I understand you correctly my desire or capacity to take any potential course of action is “free” BUT since God knows beforehand what choice I’ll make I really didn’t have a choice.

    As Technician wrote “why worry”!

  11. another view Avatar
    another view

    Whats the difference between “free to chose” and “free will”?

    Either you dont understand words or you are splitting hairs.

  12. Rev Dr. Dick Hertz Avatar
    Rev Dr. Dick Hertz

    That’s all it is “words”! I admit that I don’t understand. The “splitting hairs” comment should really be addressed to Carlos.

  13. another view Avatar
    another view

    Actually Carlos is saying the truth, but he is trying to be an intellectual about it (which he is not.) He shouls stick to what he knows and present the plain Biblical view

  14. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    I see this debate raging about free will and prophecy and I see Carlos there getting himself tied up as usual, trying to over-explain to satisfy his agenda, so let me satisfy mine.

    The perspective here is that the secret to prophecy is the fact that man has certain propensities. Let’s take it down to a simple state. For example, it is easy to predict that, placed on an island by themselves, a man and a woman will have sex at some point in time.

    The question is whether the man will take it or it will be given voluntarily or mutually? So then it becomes a question of conditions.

    So therefore, what prevailing conditions would cause violence and what would cause voluntary and/or mutual action?

    Man by his very living provides a track record of propensities. Some things seem to change but really there are still the same. I would posit that “the apparent” is a matter of spiritual advancement and strength. For example, you may know a persons strength of weakness and may fairly accurately describe his possible performance.

    This is my equation: On a balance of probabilities or possibilities + given certain propensities + conditions = the outcome (Prophesy). If we were privileged to observe the evolution or development of beings and or societies on different planets, then based on the characteristics of the races and spiritual profile, it would be fairly easy to predict, especially when you are positioned to throw in certain controls like religion and understand the effects that ideologies have on intelligent beings.

    The way I see it, free will is only apparent and very theoretical; the better of the two evils “for you” the individual, that exist within set parameters. Free will is exercised by your faith that by some input, some result will or will not happen. Don’t seem to be much difference between free will and freedom of choice; all exist within controlling parameters.

  15. another view Avatar
    another view

    Rok the omniscient one is talking bull shit as usual, and displaying his total ignorance of the situation.

    Rok go read up something by an acredited theologian on the doctrine of predestination. It is indeed a difficult doctrine; but you can try.

    Are you saying that God the supreme whi is really truly omniscient cant see ahead and predict events accurately?

  16. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    another view

    who say that I want to read up anything? I put forward my bullshit as you call it. What’s the problem? Am I not entitled to my view just as you are entitled to another view?

  17. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    another view,

    “Are you saying that God the supreme whi is really truly omniscient cant see ahead and predict events accurately?”

    …and where did I suggest that? I am always wary of people who call other people stupid. Usually it is their first name.

  18. another view Avatar
    another view

    First Carlos was rightly dividing the word even though confusing the public with terms that were not needed but he was not tying up himself at all

    You obviously know nothing about prophesy. The secret to prophecy has nothing to do with any of man’s propensities but on God being able to predict events. It has nothing to do with man. There are a number of predictions or promises or prophecies about the Lord’s first coming that were all accurately fulfilled. God knew that what did happen would happen and he predicted the same. (Reminds me of that long sentence in Caesar Gallic war with the futurum esse and the futurum iri in the same long sentence.)

    Your long convoluted argument is nonsense, and reveals your ignorance of the subject.
    It is not about the way you see it and your perspective. You seem to think that you can shoot of your silly opinions about everything, with out having studied the subject. That is nonsense. Spout about what you have studied.

    e.g Your bull viz This is my equation: On a balance of probabilities or possibilities + given certain propensities + conditions = the outcome (Prophesy). If we were privileged to observe the evolution or development of beings and or societies on different planets, then based on the characteristics of the races and spiritual profile, it would be fairly easy to predict, especially when you are positioned to throw in certain controls like religion and understand the effects that ideologies have on intelligent beings.

    Read that nonsense again and you will find that you have said nothing about prophesy. You are far far far away from the truth.

    You are off course entitled to put your bullshit, but at least read about the subject (as Carlos obviously does) before spouting your effluent.

  19. Saved Avatar
    Saved

    Permit me to give a few thoughts on prophesy, which is indeed a difficult subject that requires much study.

    Prophecy is often not very interesting because it appears to deal with the distant past or the indecipherable future. Either way, it doesn’t seem to affect us today.

    To understand the importance and relevance of Bible prophecy, we first need to see its importance in the Bible itself. At least 25% of the Bible is explicitly classified as prophetic. God’s prophets were dear to Him. He often judges people on how they treated the prophets. He also is quite fond of saying that certain events must take place in order to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet. Also, the New Testament writers and Christ often referred to Old Testament prophecy. There are over thirty such direct references in the Gospels alone. Finally, there are many scriptures that attest to the critical value of prophecy. For example,

    For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay. Habakkuk 2:3

    I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Matthew 5:18

    Christianity is based on the infallibility of God’s Word. It is the only religion in which unfulfilled prophecy plays such an important role. It may be said, without exaggeration, that Christianity depends on the literal fulfillment of Bible prophecy. For if God’s prophets are not true, then the Bible itself is not true. Therefore, to have a full appreciation for God’s plan for us, as revealed in his Word, we need to know what the prophets have said, what has already been fulfilled, and what has yet to be fulfilled.

    The most important personal reason for studying Bible prophecy is to keep from being deceived in end times. We study the Bible as a standard for how we should believe and act. Many deceitful events will occur in the end times, so it is essential to know what God’s Word says as a baseline for discerning what is true and what is false.

    For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect– if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. Matthew 24:24-25

    Verse 24 warns of great deception aimed at the elect of God. We can overcome the enemy’s lies by heeding verse 25, “See, I have told you ahead of time,” but we must know what the Word of God has already told us through intensive study and meditation. Then we must have an open mind to be able to apply the Word to what are sure to be surprising end times events.

    It does seem as another view points out that INTENSIVE STUDY OF THE WORD AND MEDITATION, perhaps assisted by reading the works of men who have studied the subject, would be of great help before one pontificates and talk rubbish, about a subject that one does not know much about.

  20. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    You all people do make a lot of assumptions. I contend that the subjectivity with which you people approach the Bible leaves a lot to be desired.

    There is no science in the approach except the study of what is not there. What meditation what? Pure and simple construction.

    You all have a point to prove. I have none. Sometimnes when I read what supposedly brilliant men try to foist upon society, it is amazing. No wonder we so divided because the lack of knowledge and careful study of the facts eludes you, so then you try to foist what is a belief upon somebody.

    You better check back what you write and see if it is not all based on belief, nothing scientific.

  21. Observer Avatar
    Observer

    I think GP/Carlos/Dictionary/another view/ Saved are all the same person

  22. Saved Avatar
    Saved

    Rok

    Man the men got you pun de back foot.

    Serious Bible students don’t study subjectively as you accuse the men or as you seem to do in your opinions.
    Serious Bible students compare Scripture with Scripture using the Science of Hermeneutics.
    Serious Bible students comment on the Word- not on their assumptions.
    Serious Bible students believe (based on the Word of God) that God has made promises or predictions or prophecies and that since most of these promises or predictions or prophecies have been fulfilled evinces a strong proof that God has revealed himself in prophecy.
    An example of this is the line of prophecy comprised of the numerous predictions concerning the first coming of Christ. To suggest that these are due to mere human prescience or to fortuitous coincidence, is to suggest a vastly greater improbability than that they are due to the direct revelation of God.
    Christ was to be (1) born of a virgin (Isa. 7:14; Matt. 1:23),
    (2) of the seed of Abraham (Gen. 12:3; Gal. 3:8),
    (3) of the tribe of Judah (Gen. 49:10; Heb. 7:14),
    (4) of the line of David (Ps. 110: 1; Rom. 1: 3);
    (5) born at Bethlehem (Micah 5:2; Matt. 2:6),
    (6) anointed of the Spirit (Isa. 61:lf.; Luke 4:18f.).
    He was to (7) ride into Jerusalem on a donkey (Zech. 9:9; Matt. 21:5),
    (8) be betrayed by a friend (Ps. 41:9; John 13:18),
    (9) be sold for thirty pieces of silver (Zech. 11:12f.; Matt. 26:15; 27:9f.),
    (10) be forsaken by his disciples (Zech. 13:7; Matt. 26:31, 56),
    (11) be pierced in his hands and in his feet, but not have a bone broken (Ps. 22:16 34:20; John 19:36; 20:20, 25).
    Men were (12) to give him gall and vinegar to drink (Ps. 69:21; Matt. 27:34),
    (13) to part his garments and cast lots for his vesture (Ps. 22:18; Matt. 27:35).
    He was to be (14) forsaken of God (Ps. 22:1; Matt. 27:46) and
    (15) buried with the rich (Isa. 53:9; Matt. 27:57-60).
    He was to (16) rise’ from the dead (Ps. 16:8-11),
    (17) ascend on high (Ps. 68:18; Eph. 4:8), and
    (18) sit at the Father’s right hand (Ps. 110:1; Matt. 22:43-45).

    In this example, I have compared compare Scripture with Scripture, and have made no assumptions, nor have I displayed any subjectivity..

    Study of the Word does involve meditation, or chewing of the cud or rumination. In fact the Psalmist enjoins the reader of the Bible to do so.

    Also since the English Bible is a translated book “ Pure and simple construction” is certainly not good enough! . Serious Bible students refer to concordances, and word studies and other texts to decipher what the original words in the Greek or Hebrew means, or how it may be used to arrive at the real meaning of the passage.

    A good example would be Galatians 3:23 the law is our school master in the KJV . Here the Greek word means child trainer, and is really not the same as school master, when you consider manners and customs of the day.

  23. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Saved

    It is you that don’t understand. I cannot be a serious scripture student. Tell me something about theology and I don’t mean Christianity, I mean pure and applied theology.

    This scripture study is based on a universal christian imagination and has nothing to do with the facts. As my dear Friend, at the time Canon Goodrige, Principal of Codrington College used to teach, unless you believe, forget it. There is no other basis.

    I can’t even read fiction, farless study somebody else’s imagination. Sure, Bible students comment on the Bible. That is just what I mean. Even the same Bible tells you that you shall know them by their fruit. You cannot deny that the biggest lie prevails in the world of Christianity and that it is the image of Christ. Well if that is the first fruit of Christianity, you understand what I am saying.

    Christ himself was a simple man. He never complicated things and that is what makes great men. Simple things. He warned you not to put up images and that is exactly what you are doing. He knew the dangers.

    On the back foot? Yeah! The ball gone for six and I still at the crease. You ent see? Everything about Christianity is about belief and therefore subjective. If you try to tell me otherwise, you are not being truthful to yourself and like the fellow that doing evil, you looking for a partner so you can continue bullying and driving fear into people using Christianity as a weapon. Well Sir/Madam, it really does not matter.

    As for another view. He/she is Carlos coat tail; cut from the same cloth. Never mind. You are still all my brothers. I have to accept that. I will not do like you and let my theology distance me from you, then I would have fallen prey too.

    I tolerate a lot; like you trying to make others believe how ignorant I am, so that you could win an argument. You tell me that is Christianity? I don’t want no part of it. Keep it. My back is broad, like Christ I would say, Father, forgive them, they know not what they do. Who is the real Christian?

    Let me tell you something. Christ was at pains to tell us that every man could be like him. He also tells you that to get to God it has to be through him. Well if we can be like him and you get to God through him, then does that not tell you how close you yourself are to God? No, but instead, you worshipping an image that you were told not to worship. How foolish? and calling others foolish. I can’t deal with that. You all too corrupt. Talk about false prophets? What mirror image do you have of yourself?

    I prophesy that if Christ came back today, many would laugh at him because you do not know him and that when you crucify him again somebody will cry out, remember me when you are in paradise; and he would rise again too and talk about a third coming. You know what he would get crucified for, obliterating Israel. He would be branded as a terrorist; maybe even an anti-christ. That for you.

  24. Saved Avatar
    Saved

    You have not addressed the issue of prophesy or rightly dividing the Word of truth?

    You have merely rambled on subjectively.

    @ Oberver You are incorrect

  25. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @saved

    I am glad that you recognise that.

  26. JC Avatar
    JC

    You cannot deny that the biggest lie prevails in the world of Christianity and that it is the image of Christ.
    ————————————————

    ROK you will never get them to admit that ne ha HA AHA LOLOLOLOL!

  27. Carlos Avatar
    Carlos

    Rev. Dr. Dick: You say; “Your sophistry and learning has not helped to bring enlightenment to me.”

    Dear Dr, if you are unable to ‘grasp’ or understand that because God knows beforehand what ‘choice’ you will make, that this does not render you, as you say; “I really didn’t have a choice” then only Almighty God can enlighten your mind, and give you the much needed insight into this reality, that many don’t find difficult to comprehend.

    Now, I most certainly DID not use ‘sophism’ (sophistry) as you accused me of doing, as this is indicative of a ‘false’ argument, intending to deceive.

    I DID not give any false argument, intending to deceive, far be it from me; I sought to give you sound theological terms and explanations behind the concept of ‘free will’ and the faculty that ‘chooses’, as we make multiple choices and decision every day in our lives, some of which are good and pleasing, others bad for us. If we self-evidently understand this, why is it so difficult to understand that choosing to accept Christ, is a ‘choice’ that does NOT violate your free will.

    If, however, you are unable to make any sense of what I sincerely attempted to share with you, that’s sad, by alright. But, you are most ‘out’ of place to refer to it as ‘sophistry’, but I ‘choose’ of my ‘free will’ to forgive you!

    Another View: You said, “…but he is trying to be an intellectual (which he is not) He should stick to what he knows and present the plain Biblical view.”

    I lay no claim to being an intellectual, that’s what you accuse me of ‘trying to be’.

    I simply shared what I have studied for many long years, in formal theology, at both Bible College and Seminary up to the doctoral level. While this does not necessarily qualify me as an ‘intellectual’ I’ve been duly qualified in the discipline of theology, and respectfully am entitled to teach on the subject.

    Others on this blog, without any or little training and knowledge in Bible and theology, are only making themselves fools, by ignorantly, and arrogantly attempting to pontificate on this subject. It is better to remain silent, tbeing a fool, than to open your mouth and have it confirmed.

    The ‘free’ will choice is ours!

  28. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Carlos

    Who you tring to fool about free will being ours. If it were, prophecy would be a sham. Does it take a rocket scientist to work that out?

    Training without common sense to back it up is like a library. What would you like to ask the library?

  29. Rev Dr Dick Hertz Avatar
    Rev Dr Dick Hertz

    Carlos
    My utmost apology. I was certainly “out of place”. Wrong word used on my part. I may not understand your argument but I do not believe that you intend to deceive anyone. I do think that you have written what you honestly believe. Your post re Thomistic model seemed so heavy handed a response that it came across as sophical. Esotericism (as in understood by a select few) would have been a better word. Sorry again.

  30. Avatar
    Anonymous

    ……’Others on this blog, without any or little training and knowledge in Bible and theology, are only making themselves fools, by ignorantly, and arrogantly attempting to pontificate on this subject. It is better to remain silent, tbeing a fool, than to open your mouth and have it confirmed.

    ————————————————–What arrogance displayed by Christians !!

    Because one is not educated to the highest order, it means they have no common sense or understanding??

    No wonder so many of our fore parents are the way they are, leaving everything to the church, following blindly behind these ‘educated’ people who know the “Book ” so well.

    If everyone has free will, why then are Christians so arrogant and condescending because others choose a different path.
    I would think that if they really wanted to ‘win’ souls, they would at least stop with the fire and brimstone, scare tactics and just be humble ad reach out to people.
    Just reading the posts above, from ‘Christians’ is enough to disgust and turn off the average young mind who are searching and need help in finding Christ.

  31. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    I have to agree with Anonymous here. I do not think they understand the damage they cause to Christianity with their pompous attitude. I keep telling them that they are not following Christ when they do that.

    Actually, they are using the Bible as a weapon against innocent citizens. It can only be described as psychological terrorism. They should also consider the fact that to call anybody an idiot or ignorant in a generic sense makes them the idiots and the ignorant, because they are at least ignorant to the fact that each man must decide their destiny and idiots because people are not idiots. You dare scoff at the work of God? It is not your duty. Vengance is mine saith the Lord.

    You can’t talk about free will in one breath and then tell me I only have one choice to salvation. What madness. There is no free will there. You giving me a choice between life and destruction, is that a choice?

    One thing I know for sure is that a lot of you who are so self-righteous will certainly get a surprise at the pearly gates. How dare you treat the work of God like that? You will be called to account for something as simple as your harsh words to those you look down upon and even the fact that you look down upon them.

    You will be called to account for worshiping graven images and for celebrating the birth and death of Christ. He told you not to do these things… but somehow you do not see the evil in it. Take a look at Xmas. Many claimed that the Christ is out of Xmas. You think that Christ’s name should be wrapped up in something that will eventually go sour?

    You guys have a lot to account for, even moreso than those who do not believe, why? Because you have taken the word and corrupted it. A far greater sin.

  32. anon Avatar
    anon

    silence all!
    the mighty rok has spoken!
    he who knows all has spoken!
    bow the knee and listen in awe to the mighty rok!

    cows come and go but the bullshit from rok is here to stay!
    endure……oh me am (as they say in St Kitts)

  33. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    anon

    Why don’t you declare who you are and stop hiding behind a cloak to spout insults. You don’t have anything in the closet? You are perfect? Only what you say must go? I am not ramming anything down anybody’s throat in the fanatical way that you are doing it.

    I have not seen any substantial contribution from you. You echoing Carlos. You don’t have to worry about the bullshit I talk. Make sure about yourself when that time comes. Be a Christian and stop insulting people and using ridiculing tactics to shut up who are not saying the same as you.

    You are wasting your time trying to shut me up and I am sure that there are a lot out there that agree with what I am saying. You need the truth. The truth shall set you free!

    You guys are causing Christianity to leave a bad taste in the mouths of others who may ordinarily swing that way. No love, no compassion and certainly no wisdom.

    Now you here stalking me because I dare to give a different view. I want you to know that stalking is a criminal act. You are a Christian or supposedly so. Why are you breaking the law? Why are you trying to infringe on another’s right to free speech? You dare to call yourself a Christian?

    I will continue to speak out about the condescending and ridiculing manner in which people, who ought to know better, engage in the name of Christ. Right now this is a war against terrorism.

  34. anon Avatar
    anon

    Harken to the voice of the loving compassionate ROK who knows all! Now he is in a war against terrorism. Now he is paranoid! He says he is being stalked, and I am a law breaker for mocking him.

    I am not ramming anything down anybody’s throat in any fanatical way, I just showing the public that you are unable to do as you preach. You cannot be debunked?

    And Rok, you would not be able to see a substantial contribution from me cause you cant see the substantial contribution from Carlos, who has been consistently dividing the Word correctly, though he didn’t go to Codrington like you. LOL

    Cows come and go, but ROK’s bullshit is here to stay. That is the truth ROK! Ah lie?

  35. Observer Avatar
    Observer

    anon = carlos, GP, another view et al

  36. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Yes, Carlos has been contributing and you have been holding on to his coat tail. Nothing of sustance or new from you.

    I am hoping that all you bloggers out there as witnesses to the persecution of those claiming to come from God.

    When will the terrorism and persecution stop? Lord, I remember you saying that the followers of Christ will get persecuted, but I never though they would be doing it in your name.

    Maybe I am wrong. You did talk about the false prophets. Yes, I see what you mean. Are they the enemy too? Oh! They are not terrorists? Oh! They are “errorists”. Thanks Lord, for the clarification and for such words of wisdom and understanding.

    anon, the Lord tell me he will deal with you when you get there. He say you have to pass that road.

  37. Avatar
    Anonymous

    @ Anon

    No one is saying that Carlos/Dictionary/another view/ Saved are not dividing up the word correctly ( whatever that means ).
    What you fail to understand is that they are preaching bout their individual beliefs and respective faith.
    What about the non-believer??
    What about the lost ones??
    How can they be reached when the ones who should be reaching ou, comes with this type of attitude and behavior?
    People will always disagree, that is the nature of humans but shouldn’t Christians excercise some level of tolerance?
    Look at the various denominations who have nothing to do with any other because they think theirs is the true one.
    Isn’t this arrogance leading to a lot of the problems we see in the world today ?
    It is so funny to say but most of the evils and sins in the world to day, I have experienced within the Church, go figure.

  38. Carlos Avatar
    Carlos

    Rev. Dr. Dick Hertz: Your apology is accepted, thanks!

    But, on ‘esotericism’ this is not the correct word either, as this carries the implicit connotation of those with special knowledge, i.e., those who are initiated into the ‘occult’ world of hidden arts, witchcraft, etc., etc., which is most certainly not what God’s Word, and theology is all about.

    If you think through carefully what I shared with you, applying it to your daily life, as you make ‘choices’ through your ‘will’ versus your intellect, which is essentially knowledge based, I feel you’ll eventually grasp the concept.

  39. anon Avatar
    anon

    @ Anonymous
    I do not agree with you that no one is saying that Carlos, Dictionary, another view or Saved are not dividing up the word correctly, because Rok is certainly saying so!

    If indeed Carlos, Dictionary, another view or Saved are indeed rightly dividing the word correctly then their individual beliefs and respective faith should line up with the Word, irregardless to what non-believers or the lost think.

    Certainly Christians should excercise tolerance, but so should non-believers or the lost.

    The various denominations is a work of the devil and the placing of DOGMA over DOCTRINE. This is very unfortunate.

    The problems in the world today stems not from the different denominations, or from the arrogance that you perceive in Christians, but from the SIN in the hearts of individuals.

    It is certainly untrue to say that most of the evils and sins in the world to day is the fault of the church. If that is your experience, it seems that your experience is either limited or biased, or both.

  40. anon Avatar
    anon

    Rock ma boy

    Of course Carlos has been contributing and I see no need to compete with him. He has been doing a good job, so why must I jump in? You are not willing to listen or learn anyway, because you think you know it all mighty omniscient one!

    No one is persecuting or terrorizing anyone. I am just mocking you Oh mighty omniscient one! I want you to learn that Bible studying has nothing to do with “your take” on things, or your perspective. Go and take a course in Methods of Bible Study. Read some Hermeneutics. Try to open your mind and learn something new, and something true! YOU DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING AS YOU THINK. Be willing to admit you don’t know. Ask questions. Don’t just disregard the efforts of true students of the Word because you don’t know what they are taking about.

    If you want respect, respect others views too.

    You are calling folk names and expect folk to bow before you? You must learn too that you don’t have to play at every ball! Learn some humility and listen.

  41. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Anon,

    Where did I say you or Carlos are not “Dividing up the Word” correctly? I merely stated that I had my view and I get attacked.

    As far as I am concerned, Carlos is “dividing the Word” correctly according to his teaching but not for me, Sir or Madam. I am entitled to that.

    I will say it again, it must start with your faith. You choose that path and I cannot deal with it. That is all I am saying, but don’t start calling me ignorant because I have another view. I did not call you that.

    I opposed the near violent, psychological and abusive manner in which you would like others to accept what you say, when even the scholars can’t agree among themselves to a lot of the issues.

  42. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    When you call me omniscient one and tell me that I talking bullshit, what is that except abuse, intended to derogate my character?

    I know for myself that I do not know everything and commonsense will tell you that no one person can know everything. If that is so, then you are trying to mock me and for one reason only. I put forward a different view.

    You have Carlos, Dr. Hertz, Dictionary, Scout, GP and Saved all on your side telling everybody the same or similar thing.

    I am one, why you putting so much emphasis on me? When did I call you names? And where did I indicate that I want somebody to bow down before me? Oh! I see! I dared to speak up?

    You have problems, please don’t put them on me.

  43. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @anon… With all due respect…

    I find myself being annoyed by you…

    @anon: “Go and take a course in Methods of Bible Study. Read some Hermeneutics.

    What makes you assume we haven’t?

    And, to counter, have you recently read much Penrose? Stephenson? Heisenberg? Einstein? Newton? Gödel?

    @anon: “Try to open your mind and learn something new, and something true!

    With respect, kind Sir, I, personally, go out of my way every day to open my mind to new ideas.

    This it not to mean that I don’t reject as stupid some of which I’m presented….

  44. Observer Avatar
    Observer

    ROK writes,

    “You have Carlos, Dr. Hertz, Dictionary, Scout, GP and Saved all on your side telling everybody the same or similar thing.”

    That is not as many different people as you think.

    Not to worry, there is more on your side that you think

  45. anon Avatar
    anon

    If Carlos et al are rightly dividing the Word, then “your opinion, your view your take” is then by your own definition incorrect.

    You cant divide the Word correctly by your teaching or someone else’s teaching, or my teaching. One and one is two always; irregardless to who teaches you. P1 V1 = P2 V2 irregardless to who teaches you. The Lord is my Shepherd means exactly what it says. There is rightly dividing the word of truth, and wrongly dividing the word of truth! You cant be right and wrong simultaneously!

    Rightly dividing the word has nothing to do with faith, it has to do with spiritual understanding. People of different faiths actually agree on many aspects of the Word, when they correctly divide it!

    Error creeps in when folk want to introduce their personal subjective ideas, without comparing scripture with scripture as Saved opined yesterday, and seek to make the Word mean what they want it to say.

    Error creeps in when denominations try to fit the Word to suit their dogma, rather than to coincide with the doctrine or teachings of the word. We ought to find out 1-what the Word SAYS, then 2-WHAT the Word MEANS, before we can have a go at APPLICATION OF THE WORD. #1 and #2 can not change!

    When it says they got in a boat and went over to the other side, it means they got in a boat and went over to the other side. Now you can apply it by saying you ought to get in the right boat, or don’t miss the boat or what ever.

    You cant be right all the time! I have had to review my position after doing word studies in Vine or Wuest or Barclay or Hort etc

    I have had to review my position after reading a scripture that I had not read before.

    e.g On prayer the Word teaches that we will get what ever we ask for. Is that the full truth? No. There is another texts that says if we ask in his will! The full truth is we will get what we ask for if we ask in his will.

  46. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @anon… 0K. L37s d0 7h1s…

    @anon: “P1 V1 = P2 V2 irregardless to who teaches you.

    You have introduced four “variables” to this discussion: P1, P2, V1 and V2.

    You have also introduced a relation: ((P1 * V1) == (P2 * V2)).

    Can you please define the variables P1, P2, V1 and V2?

  47. anon Avatar
    anon

    Chris
    With all due respect…Be annoyed if you wish.
    Have you taken a course in Methods of Bible Study? Have you read Hermeneutics? Be honest now. Im sure you haven’t. Most church goers have not, Im sure; even evangelicals I meet have no definite program or method(s) of study..

    If I want to study Ovid, or Livy, or Shelley etc I would go and but keys and seek help from the experts thereon. And most folk will do so when studying most subjects. But everyone wants to opine on the Bible with authority without studying the book. That has been my experience for almost 50 years.

    Martin Luther taught that he studied the Word as he picked apples. He shook the tree, then he searched limb by limb, and looked under every leaf and twig.

    Serious Bible students would have used some survey method, then book by book study, then chapter by chapter study, then verse by verse study or exegesis, then word studies. Serious Bible students would seek to master Typology, Topical studies, Biographical studies etc etc That’s Basic Methods of Bible Study. Have you done that Chis. Can you honestly say that you have?

    When I started to seriously study the Word as a teen, I was fortunate to read a list of some good rules to follow in studying in a few booklets that I bought. Many years later, I found these rules in texts on Hermeneutics.

  48. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    Oh shoot…..gone for a bit and all hell brek loose pun this thread.

    Well, well, well……

    I thought this was over but now it has a different spin.

    Rok….boy I am one on your side…believe me.
    I think Anonymous is one of my workmates too because we had this same discussion in the office and I was the one, who introduced them to BU.

    I hope the boss aint on here too, ’cause we should have been working but thanks to LIME, the phones were out and the customers couldn’t get through (thanks LIME).

    One thing that I have always said , is the condescending manner in which these so called Christians put forth their points.

    Gone are the days when the Church could scare us into their belief, gone are the uneducated fore parents who knew nothing and had to depend on church elders for spiritual guidance.

    What we see now is the Church losing its power to control of the minds of the people .

    *********************************************
    ……’Certainly Christians should excercise tolerance, but so should non-believers or the lost.

    Who then, are the ones professing to know better?
    Shouldn’t they be the ones leading by example?

    ************************************************
    …..’If you want respect, respect others views too.

    You are calling folk names and expect folk to bow before you? You must learn too that you don’t have to play at every ball! Learn some humility and listen.

    Why not ask your “friends” to do the same?

    ********************************************
    …’The various denominations is a work of the devil and the placing of DOGMA over DOCTRINE. This is very unfortunate.

    Indeed, it is unfortunate but can you tell the difference or further explain, who are the ones doing the Devil’s work from the ones doing Christ’s work?

    ************************************************
    Anonymous says…….
    It is so funny to say but most of the evils and sins in the world to day, I have experienced within the Church, go figure.

    Anon says….
    It is certainly untrue to say that most of the evils and sins in the world to day is the fault of the church. If that is your experience, it seems that your experience is either limited or biased, or both.

    You, Anon have deliberately twisted the words of Anonymous to fit your agenda.

    I grew up in the church and have also, just as Anonymous has said in his post, seen and experienced most of the evils and sin, that one can find in the world today.
    Things like adultery, envy, stealing, greed, pride……etc.
    This is not the same as saying…..’that most of the evils and sins in the world to day is the fault of the church.’

    I guess I could add another accolade to you then…..Deception !!

    Let the hits come…….

  49. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @anon: “Have you taken a course in Methods of Bible Study? Have you read Hermeneutics?

    Let me please me it very simple for you…

    Do you understand thermodynamics?

    Do you even understand conservation of energy?

  50. anon Avatar
    anon

    Chris

    The formula P1 V1 = P2 V2 is Boyle’s Law, named after the British chemist Robert Boyle (1627 – 1691). It states that the volume of a fixed mass of gas at a constant temperature is inversely proportional to the pressure of the gas.
    OR in less formal terms:
    When pressure increases, volume decreases.
    When volume increases, pressure decreases.

    P = Pressure; V = Volume

    Yes Chris I understand thermodynamics and the concept of conservation of energy

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