474 responses to “Is This The Start Of World War III?”

1. 

   Carlos

   January 20, 2009 at 11:23 am

   
   

   Back to ‘Patinho’ and the other sadly ‘misinformed’ who have bought into the ‘Turnspeak’ Arab, propaganda lies, inverting, twisting and maligning historic ‘facts’ expressly for the purpose of making the ‘Jews’ appear as the oppressor, and the Palestinians look as the victim.

   First FACT of history:

   It was around 1400 B.C., well over 2000 years before the first Muslim invasion of Palestine (as the Romans renamed it A.D 135) that Israel WAS already established as a nation.

   The ten tribes of the northern land known as Samaria called themselves Israel. The southern tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi became known as the Kingdom of Judah, from which the name ‘Jew’ came.

   Because of apostasy, Israel suffered two captivities, the Assyrian in 721 B.C., and again in 586 B.C., the Babylonian captivity; though the Bible records that not all were taken to Babylon, a few were left in Judea by the Babylonians to maintain the land. Some were able to flee to Egypt and others to Arabia.

   In 1949, after the birth of the state, Israelis rescued the Yemenite Jews from the warth of the Muslims. Known as ‘the wings of eagles.’ They were all airlifted to Israel. These Yemenite Jews trace their origins in Arabia back 2,500 years, during the time of the Babylonian invasion.

   It is an historic fact, that the second holiest Islamic city in the world,( ‘Yathrib’ (Medina) , WAS first established by Jews, an amazing fact confirmed by historical sources. But, little is ever said about this. The story of widespread Jewish settlement in pre-Islamic Arabia is certainly one of the world’s best-kept secrets, as ‘Islam’ DID not exist until the 7th century, was never heard of until Mohammed came!

   The First Palestinian Refugees:

   As historian Joan Peters, writes:

   “Thus evolved the flight of the first ‘Palestinian refugees’ – the Judean, or Jews.”

   It is vitally important to understand how the early Jewish settlements came to Arabia; as these Jewish ‘refugees’ are seldom discused, and IS significant to what transpired, and therefore critical to understand today’s Middle East crisis.

   Why is this important? Because, without understanding the pattern that developed toward the Jews in Arabia, and the Islamic tradition that HAS been followed ever since, from the Koran’s declarations of utter ‘hated’ for them, one will never be able to grasp the what then started in earnest from 1948-49, to DESTROY the Jews and their homeland, Israel.

   Judaism was in fact very popular in parts of Arabia, prior to the birth of Mohammad. But, with the birth of ‘Islam’ all hell broke out. Mohammed and his disciples treated the Jews more severely than any other ‘unbelievers.’ Why? Because that had irritated him by not recognizing him as a prophet; therefore Mohammad decided these non-believers, had to be eliminated if he was going to fulfill his imperial ambitions.

   He simply ordered an Islamic law: “Two religions may not dwell together on the Arabian Peninsula.

   The historic FACTS, are, that Mohammad went after the Jewish communities of northern Arabia, systematically slaughtering the Jews, all of them. First, the Quraiza tribe was exterminated.

   Mohammad said that “War is deception.” the complete annihilation of the two Arabian-Jewish tribes, with every man, woman and child slaughtered, is, according to the late Jewish historian and President Itzhak Ben-Zvi, “a tragedy for which no parallel can be found in Jewish history.”

   As an example of their brutality and barbarity, after one Jewish town surrendered to the Muslims, approximately 1000 men were behaded in one day. The women and children were sold into slavery. (Guillaume, Islam, p.47-48).

   Elsewhere, as attacks on Jews continued, some managed to survive. Under new Islamic policy, non-Muslims or “infidels” were permitted to maintain their land, so long as they paid a 50% tribute for ‘protection.’

   Histtorian Peters write:

   “Thus the Jewish dhimmi evolved, the robbery of freedom and political independence compounding the extortion and eventual expropriation of property. Tolerated between onslaughts and pillages from the Arab Muslim conquest onward, the non-Muslim dhimmi, predominantly Jewish but with Christian too, provided the important source of religious revenue through the “infidel’s” head tax. He became very quickly a convenient political scapegoat and whipping boy as well.”

   Mohammad tells his followers, they can fight, raid, and pillage in the sanctified service and name of Allah, and keep the booty as well. Fighting is now raised to the level of a “holy wat” in the cause of Allah. In fact, an old Arabic word is dusted off and given new meaning “Jihad”, holy war.”

   The historic facts, are, that the Jews legally, by centuries and centuries of natural citizenship, in Arabia, are now plundered by an explosive growth and popularity of Islam among Arabs, as supported by Islamic historian, Ali Dashti, who writes:

   “The immediate step which secured the economic base and strengthened the prestige of the Muslims, was their seizure of the property of the Jews at Yathric.”

   In fact the killing of Jews at Medina, the massacres of The Nadhir and Kainuka tribes, and the dispossession of property by Muslims set up what Joan Peters rightly calls, “the precedent of prey” a pattern that would be repeated again and again. The agrarian and merchant Jews lucky enough to escape death, would be plundered and exploited by nomadic Arabs. Islam not only GAVE them an excuse for such oppression, it COMMANDED it.

   It is likely, that among Jewish ‘refgees’ fleeing from Arabia were of Jews whose ‘Palestinian” or ‘Judean’ ancestors had fled the Romans (circa AD 135).

   Peters, makes a valid and strickingly imo]portant point, as she writes:

   “Now they (Jews) returned to seventh-century Palestine, joining their Jewish brethren who HAD never left. Ironically, the Jewish refugees return coincided with the introduction of Arab conquerors from the desert; the very INVADERS who had FORCED themselves in and the Jews OUT of their homes in Arabia, would now PLUNDER Judah-Palestine in the identical pattern. And the Jews who inhabited many towns of ‘Palestine’ uninterruptedly would one day in the twentieth century be FORCED out as the Arabian Jews had been, by SLAUGHTER, or expropriation and terrorizing. The towns would then, in the later twentieth century, be touted as purely Arab Palestinian areas since time immemorial, just as the Arabian Peninsula had come to be perceived as “purely Arab,” when in fact the holy arab Muslim city of Medina had been originally settled by Jews.”

   This is just scratching the surface, of historic ‘facts’ that have been cleaverly muted, overlooked, and otherwise maligned, by the well used Arab use of ‘Turnspeak’ the utter inverting, twisting, and distoring of ‘fact’ to make the Jews, the true ‘refugee’ and victim, of relentless Arab oppression, rape, pillage, extortion and killings, appear as the aggressor, and ‘occupier’ of their historic land, the state of Israel.

   Will be back in a while to give a bit more of the truth and facts.

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2. 

   Carlos

   January 20, 2009 at 1:12 pm

   
   

   If as a ‘Christian’ I resolutely stand on the side of historic truth, facts, and reality, I am called a Zionist Christian, so be it, and I am not ashamed to be rediculed, for ‘truth’ will always overcome falsity, lies, distortion and hatred.

   Until the past is fully explored, by willing minds, in an honest and truthful way, there is NO hope of rectifying historical injustices.

   The historic fact, of the “Medina Legacy’ has established a pattern of ‘Institutionalized Islamic and anti-Semitism that is at the heart of, and in fact, the vey root of today’s Middle East crisis. Therefore, without addressing that reality, there is, there can be, NO hope in ever settling, the conflict.

   The very ‘core’ of Koranic, Islamic, fundamentalism, especially as espoused by the faction of ‘Jihadists’ the ‘Terrorists’ is the DESTRUCTION and extermination of Israel, all Jews, and in fact to convert ALL of humanity, either through willing submission, OR, by force, these are the facts.

   The Key to Islam.

   Western people have such a difficult time comprehending Islam, because they fail to understand that IT IS a form of ‘Cultural Imperialism’ in which the religion and culture of 7th century Arabia are raised to the status of divine law.

   For, there IS no separation of church and state, as we essentially know it in our Western civilization, there IS no secular realm in Islamic countries, thats why ALL of them are essentially ‘dictatorial’ extremely oppressive, regimes, no independent freedom of expression, and so on.

   Incarceration without due process, the use of tortue, political asssssssssassination, the cutting off of hands, feet, ears, tongues, heads, and the gouging out of eyes, all these things are part of Islamic law today, because they were part of 7th century Arabian culture, all beginning with Mohammad.

   Patinho, your assertion, that “Jews and Arabs lives peacefuuly in the Empire’ is a terible distortion of historic fact and reality.

   Secondly, the constently repeated, ‘Myth’ that Israel is ‘Occupying’ the Palestinians land, in Gaza and other parts of Palestine, IS a monstrous ‘lie’ again from the ‘mother’ of all lies, Arab ‘Turnspeak’ a visious, venal, venomous, malignant, cynical inverting and utter distortion of ‘Fact’

   The world seldom, if ever, hears about the more than 800,00 Jewish ‘refugees’ for that is what they are, NOT, (the Palestinains) who fled Arab terror and hatred and settled in Israel.

   EXODUS, PHASE II.

   The following are some indisputable facts.

   In 1948 there were more than 850,000 Jews living in the Arab world.

   NOT, European Jews as you incorrectly stated.
   Before Israel became a state in 1948; there were between 125,00 and 135,00 who lived in Iraq; 75,000 lived in Egypt; 30,000 lived in Syria, 55,000 lived in Yemen; 8,000 lived in Aden; 265,000 lived in Morocco’ up to 140,000 lived in Algeria; over 105,000 lived in Tunisia; 5,000 lived in Lebanon; and some 38,000 lived in Libya.

   Where are these Jews now? What happened to them? Where are their PROPERTY and FINANCIAL resources? Why are they NEVER mentione in the ‘Palestinian debate” that keeps being trumpeted in the ‘United Nations’ and the Media?

   S As Joan Peters explains in her book, ‘From Time Immemorial.’

   “The Arab world has been virtually emptied of its Jews, and the fledging Jewish state would bear the burden of its hundreds of thousands of Jewish Arab born ‘refugees’ almost in secret. So unknown and undisclosed are these Arab-born Jews and the plight they have faced – the camps, squalor, uprooting, loss of property and security, discontent, unemployment, and what they sensed to be neglect of their problems in Israel, that in countless conversations outside of the Middle East with academics or professionals, from university graduates to blue-collar workers, including Jews as well as non-Jews, when the question of the ‘Middle East refugees’ is raised, almost without exception the response is, “You mean the Palestinians – the Arabs, of course.” It is as though the sad and painful story of the Arab-born Jewish ‘refugees’ HAS been erased, their STRUGGLE covered over by a REVISION of the pages of history.”

   WHY THE COVER UP?

   Why is this not reported by the media” Why isn’t it chronicled? Why isn’t it remembered?

   If the Arab nations are responsible for EXPELLING Jews in the same numbers as the much-publicized Arab refugees displaced after the creation of Israel, why isn’t the obvious solution a simple exchange?

   The absolute enormity of this Muslim ‘Myth’ has been swallowed by the West is nowhere more graphically displayed and demonstrated than in this issue.

   There is no moral equivalence in this situation.

   FACT:

   The Jews, after the creation of Israel in 1948, DID NOT drive out Palestinian refugees!

   They WERE NOT threatened or killed, so as to terroize survivors into leaving. In fact, many Palestinians were begged to stay.

   FACT:

   When within 24 hours after Israel became a duly constituted state, in 1948; the Arab countries who were planning to EXTERMINATE the Jews from their rightful, ancient homeland, ordered the ‘Arabs’ so-called Palestinians, TO LEAVE Israel, ‘temporarily’ so the combined Muslim armies could ANNIHILATE Jews and the new state.

   The Arab Palestinians WERE then DELIBERATELY forced into refugee camps and NOT permitted by their Arab brothers to intergrate into the society of their unwilling hosts, even though they WERE FELLOW Muslims.

   Can you honestly fathom this? These Arab countries, with VAST land areas, who could easily have assimilated these brothers of theirs, WHO they ordered to leave Israel, SO they could destroy them, NOW, keep them in deliberate ‘refugge’ camps, under duress, so as to make Israel look like the agressor, and ‘occupier’. A massive LIE.

   These Aran nations, DID not even try to help them, their fellow Muslim brothers! Instead, they prevailed upon the United Nations to supply the refugees’ needs. Kept in these camps by their ‘own’ people, NOT the Jews, for more than 50 years, being used as political pawsns so Muslims negotiators can continue to ‘trump’ up charges of “Israeli aggression.” Turnspeak, over and over again, repeated, until this mother of all ‘lies’ is accepted as the truth.

   More truth and facts in a little while, exposing some more popular ‘Muslim Mythology.’

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3. 

   Technician

   January 20, 2009 at 2:12 pm

   
   

   When you are quoting these facts, can you give references?

   I see you have no problem quoting the exact passage from the Bible.

   It would help to fully understand your view point if, perhaps, we the ignorant ones, had points of references to look up and research. Failing this , you are asking people to take your word as truth.

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4. 

   Technician

   January 20, 2009 at 2:16 pm

   
   

   Palestine refugee camps
   From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
   (Redirected from List of Palestinian refugee camps)
   Jump to: navigation, search

   Palestine refugee camps were established after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War to accommodate the Palestine refugees who fled from the war.

   This article lists the current Palestine refugee camps with current population and year they were established.

   The UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East) defines a Palestine refugee as:

   “Palestine refugees are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.”

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5. 

   Technician

   January 20, 2009 at 5:28 pm

   
   

   Carlos says……..
   FACT:

   The Jews, after the creation of Israel in 1948, DID NOT drive out Palestinian refugees!

   They WERE NOT threatened or killed, so as to terroize survivors into leaving. In fact, many Palestinians were begged to stay.
   ——————————————————————————————————–

   Fact:

   Israeli Terror Tactics Drive Out Palestinians in 1948 and 1967

   By Andrew I. Killgore

   “We shall spirit the penniless population (Palestinians) across the border… the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.”

   — Theodor Herzl, father of Political Zionism (Diary, Vol. II, page 24, 1898)

   “Palestine will be as Jewish as England is English.”

   — Chaim Weizmann, first President of Israel (From Trial and Error, his autobiography)

   The high-ranking UN official could hardly believe his eyes. At least 35,000 Palestinian residents of the huge West Bank refugee camps of Aqabat Jabr and Fin Sultan near Jericho were missing. As he drove by the just-destroyed camps, he could see only a handful of people picking through the rubble.

   Dr. Laurence Michelmore, the American Commissioner General of the United Nations Relief Works Agency (UNRWA), knew that refugees had poured from the West Bank into Jordan after the outbreak of the Arab-Israeli war on June 5, 1967. Still, it was bewildering only a week later, on June 12, to see the normally bustling camps silent and empty in the hot Jericho sun.

   A Second Exodus

   Michelmore already realized that UNRWA faced the staggering task of caring for more than 200,000 “new” refugees who comprised 1967’s “second exodus” from Palestine. More than one-fifth of the inhabitants had fled when Israeli soldiers seized East Jerusalem and the West Bank during six days of fighting. They joined the 750,000 refugees from the first exodus of 1948-1949, who were already overtaxing available UNRWA resources.

   The brutal Israeli Army tactics which triggered the little-known “second exodus” from Palestine, emptying such camps as Aqabat Jabr and Ein Sultan, may be repeated in further mass expulsions in the 1990s. Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir has said publicly that Israel needs the West Bank for Soviet Jews. Does a third exodus to “cleanse” the West Bank and Gaza Strip entirely of Palestinians lie ahead? And then will Israeli extremists like Rabbi Meir Kahane have their way and set off a fourth exodus to “clean” 800,000 Palestinians from Israel proper, and finally realize the dream of Dr. Chaim Weizmann?

   Israel’s tactics in expelling or terrorizing 750,000 Palestinians into fleeing their homes in the “first exodus” of 1948 and 1949 are by now fairly well known. The deliberate brutality employed to drive away another 200,000 Palestinians in 1967 is known to hardly anyone except the Palestinians themselves.

   It began as soon as Israeli forces reached the Jordan Valley in June 1967. Israeli bulldozers immediately began destroying the camps there. Remaining residents had to flee to avoid being buried in the rubble of their homes. Israeli planes thundered over them at low level, contributing to their panic.

   As Israeli loudspeakers boomed, “Go to King Hussein,” hundreds of trucks lined up to transport the terror-stricken refugees to the Jordan River’s shattered bridges.

   Ruthless behavior by Israeli forces is documented by UNRWA sources in the monograph, “River Without Bridges,” by Peter Dodd and Halim Barakat, and an article by Barakat in International Migration Review (1973) entitled, “The Palestinian Refugees: An Uprooted Community Seeking Repatriation.”

   Looting, destruction of houses, detention of male civilians, deliberate shaming of old people and women and the killing of “suspect” persons were all employed, not only in the Jordan Valley but elsewhere in the West Bank. Palestinian villages near the Latrun salient were treated with special ferocity. Villagers who left for a few hours to escape cannon fire came back to see red soil and departing Israeli bulldozers where their houses had been. One distraught woman scooped up a pillow and carried it away, thinking at first it was her small daughter.

   A Repeat of 1948?

   All of the new refugees of 1967 had heard of, and some had personally experienced, the cruel and ruthless behavior of Israeli forces in 1947 and 1948. Some feared the terrible fate of Deir Yassin, a village near Jerusalem where, in April 1948, after an artillery bombardment by the Haganah regulars who became the Israeli army after the state’s creation a month later, Jewish irregular forces of Menachem Begin’s Irgun Zvai Leumi and Yitzhak Shamir’s Lehi (Stern Gang) massacred 250 Palestinian men, women and children. The fears of mothers among the refugees fleeing such villages were so acute that they covered their children’s mouths to keep them from crying and being discovered and killed by the Israeli soldiers.

   After the 1967 fighting ended, some 175,000 victims of the second exodus applied to return from their refuge in Jordan to their homes in the West Bank. To signal good intentions to the world, Israel readmitted 14,000. Such repatriations suddenly stopped, however, revealing the true intentions of an Israel unshakably determined to rid itself of all Palestinians.

   A Study in Madness

   A planned Palestinian Exodus III failed in 1982 when Israel’s war in Lebanon went awry. That war, a four-step study in madness, was “fathered” by General Ariel Sharon, already known as “The Butcher” for his earlier atrocities against Palestinians. Its purposes were to

   1. defeat the Syrian Army,

   2. terrorize the 400,000 Palestinians in Lebanon into fleeing across Syria to Jordan,

   3. bring down King Hussein and

   4. expel the (then) 900,000 West Bank Palestinians into Jordan to form what Israel would claim was the Palestinian state.

   But Syria managed to avoid defeat and held fast in the Beka’a Valley. Nor did the Palestinians flee, despite Israel’s massacre, using Maronite militiamen proxies, of an estimated 1,500 Palestinian men, women and children in Beirut’s Sabra and Shatila refugee camps.

   Israeli forces also killed 20,000 Lebanese and Palestinians, in the course of linking up with Maronite militias to surround and besiege West Beirut. When they eventually pulled back from most of Lebanon, after suffering light losses in manpower and heavy losses in world opinion and self esteem, King Hussein was still on his throne, and the West Bankers were still in their ancient homeland.

   Evidence abounds, however, that Israel still intends to make Palestine as Jewish as England is English. Inhuman expulsions of Palestinians in technical violation of Israel’s “residency” requirements for the West Bank continue.

   Although these are still relatively small, mass expulsions will be an immediate danger if Ariel Sharon becomes Prime Minister of Israel. Not only does he share the determination of Israeli extremists to create an all Jewish Israel, his 1982 misadventure in Lebanon demonstrates that Sharon is fanatical enough to resort to genocide to carry it out.

   Andrew I. Killgore, a former US ambassador to the state of Qatar, is publisher of the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs.

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6. 

   Carlos

   January 20, 2009 at 6:01 pm

   
   

   Technician:

   The primary sources from which I quote, are:

   ‘From Time Immemorial – The Origins of The Arab-Jewish Conflict Over Palestine’ by Joan Peters. Is a National Bestseller, a literal momumental, painstaking, incredeable piece of research.

   Here are a few comments on this masterpiece of research work.

   “This book is a historical event in itself…” Barbara Tuchman.

   “A superlative book…To understand what is happening in the Middle East, one must begin with its past, which Miss Peters traces to the present with unmatched skill.” -theodore H. White.

   “The massive research Ms. Peters did…would have daunted Hercules. In the course of its she turned up a great deal of interesting material from Ottoman records, the reports of Western consular officers and observant travelers and other sources.”
   New york Times Book review.

   “A remarkable document in itself…The refugees are not the problem but the excuse.” – Washington Post Book World.

   “This book, if read, will change the mind of our generation. If understood, it could also effect the history of the future.” – New Republic.

   “The reader comes away not only rethinking the Middle East refugee problem, but also the extent to which propaganda can be swallowed whole for a lack of information.” -Los Angeles Times.

   “With determination, brilliant detective work and patience, Peters managed to unearth a foundation of factuality, research and commitment to truth.” -Toronto Star.

   “It is astonishing that From Time Immemorial is, to my knowledge, the first book in the English language which tells the story of the expulsion of Jews from the Arab countries and the indifference of the world community to their plight. Ms. Peters’ book is must reading.- Arthur J. Goldberg, former Associate Justice, U.S. Supreme Court,

   “Why have such…crucial facts…benn concealed so long?…By the times Peters finishes her case, there is little doubt left to justify Arab assertions to reclaim ‘their land’ based on ‘historical’ right’ or to say that Jews displaced Palestinian Arabs.” – Midstream.

   These are just a sample of the comments made about this awesome research done by Peters.

   It will blow your mind, concering the ‘Truth’ and facts re Israel/Palestine, hundreds of pages of footnotes, etc, etc.

   One of my other sources, is Hal Lindsey’s “The Everlasting HATRED, The Roots of Jihad.” Author of 20 best-selling books, with a total of over 40 million in print. Lindsey, is a serious Christian, and well respected author.

   “Islam Unveiled, The True Desert Storm, by Dr. Robert A. Morey, is the Excutive director of the Research and Education Foundation. Again, this book is throughly researched and well presented with facts about Islam.

   Anyone, with a ‘willing’ mind, for historic truth and facts, must consult the library of the informed; not the ‘Turnspeak’ of Arab propaganda.

   Will get back to you later with more facts.

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7. 

   Technician

   January 20, 2009 at 6:04 pm

   
   

   For those like Carlos, who are so quick to quote the Qur’an and judge the Muslims and degrade their holy book by calling Allah the devil in disguise, here is what the Jewish Holy book has to say to its people…….

   The Jewish Torah in the Old Testament book Numbers 33:51-56 states:

   “51 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan;

   52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:

   53 And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it.

   54 And ye shall divide the land by lot for an inheritance among your families: and to the more ye shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer ye shall give the less inheritance: every man’s inheritance shall be in the place where his lot falleth; according to the tribes of your fathers ye shall inherit.

   55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

   56 Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them.”
   ————————————————————————–
   And you want to tell me that they were begging the Palestinians to stay???

   Here is what it says about genocide of the Palestinian people…….

   The Jewish Torah in the Old Testament book of Deuteronomy 7:1-6 commands the Jews to genocide the native inhabitants of Palestine:

   “1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

   2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

   3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

   4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

   5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

   6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.”

   Now tell me,since I am ignorant, is there much difference between Jews and Arabs?

   What peace what!!

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8. 

   Technician

   January 20, 2009 at 6:23 pm

   
   

   Here is a quote from Bill Barnwell.
   This makes so much sense…

   According to the dispensationalist, modern Israel is always right and the Arabs are always wrong. Not only that but the people who make up modern Israel are “God’s chosen people” and hence can never be questioned (according to the New Testament, however, God’s chosen people are people of faith in Christ). This has lead to a very uneven and unfair approach from most modern day Christians to the problems of the Middle East. Israel certainly has a right to exist as a nation. There are good reasons to be generally supportive of Israel. But Israel is not always right, and every atrocity or bad move by today’s state of Israel is not honoring or glorifying to God. Also, the idea that we should unflinchingly support Israel in every circumstance is rooted in bad theology and the silly idea that God will curse us if we criticize Israel (a bad interpretation of Gen. 12:3). It’s time to stop letting faulty theology influence our foreign policy. Some Christians should also stop cheerleading violence and problems in the Middle East and stop seeing any proponent of peace as being a candidate for the Antichrist.

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9. 

   Carlos

   January 20, 2009 at 6:43 pm

   
   

   Technician:

   What you have quoted as ‘FACT’ are laced with half-truths, distortions, etc, etc., which have been dissimnated in order to ‘cloud’ the real historic reality of what actually occured.

   ‘War’ is an ungly thing, especially when the real agressors, the Arabs, want and HAVE openly declared, repeatedly, that Israel, MUST NOT EXIST.

   Yes, Jews and Israel have also done bad things, no doubt; BUT, this must not be allowed to create ‘strawmen’ and ‘redherrings’ for the EXPRESS purpose of taking us away from the ‘central’ truth, regarding the ‘historic’ facts, that ARE not been taken into consideration, as to why Israel has no option other than to defend her rights.

   Will be back later.

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10. 

    Technician

    January 20, 2009 at 7:08 pm

    
    

    OMG……..Carlos you are impossible!!!

    Hey ,,,you know what?

    I am done ok. You believe that the Arabs are wrong, everything you say is gospel because YOU say so.
    Muslims are all doomed because they worship the devil in disguise, the Catholics are mislead and deceived.

    As long as any opinion differs from yours, it is ‘laced with half truths’.

    Can you tell me what makes yours the absolute truth?

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11. 

    Technician

    January 20, 2009 at 7:10 pm

    
    

    Are you saying that the quotes from the Jewish Holy book are half truths??

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12. 

    Technician

    January 20, 2009 at 7:19 pm

    
    

    You see Carlos ….I have no issue with Israel’s right to exist or their right to defend themselves.

    What I do have an issue with however, is the atrocities committed by them under the pretense of ‘defense’.

    What did they achieve, other than political mileage and the birth of a new generation Palestinian militants bent on revenge, from this exercise?

    You and others like yourself keep on hoping for the ‘rebuilding of the third temple’…..for me I will continue to deal with the day to day truths as they happen.

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13. 

    Georgie Porgie

    January 20, 2009 at 7:40 pm

    
    

    Technician

    Carlos has done a very good job in presenting the historical and Biblical position of Evangelical Christians & Theologians. His position is sound.

    I believe that Israel are the people of God. However, like Christians they may/will not live up to thier reputation as long as they chose not to believe him and obey Him, no more than your children will faithfully represent the values taught in your household if they chose to embark on a path of rebellion.

    You quoted accurately from the Pentateuch. You pointed out the instructions that God gave to Israel at the time of the Conquest of Canaan. These are instructions that many non Christians find very revolting, even though it has been the pattern of behavior exhibited by conquering naions ever since.

    These things affect our sensibilities, when we choose. But there is nothing pretty about war then, through the epochs of time, or today; nor will it be at the eschaton at Armageddon.

    You have now agreed that Israel has the right to defend its territory. This is what I think that Carlos has gone to pains to point out. I started to do the same, but I tend not to waste time in arguing with folk who are not listening to what I am saying, especially when I know that I am correct.

    Some might question how I know that I am correct; but that is not really the issue now.

    I think that most of the folk in Israel today are in unbelief, just as the prophets predicted. Their behavior is to be expected, as they are not depending on thier God to fight thier battles for them, just as many believers do from time to time or most of the time.

    There is a lot that we understand about prophecy because of those prophecies that have indeed come to pass. Many things are coming to pass even as we speak. There is also much that we dont fully understand about either prophecy, God’s commands or his ways and methods.

    Recent comments by some posters on the reason for the attack on Gaza do seem to be correct. The attacks seem to indeed be politically motivated, rather than defence induced. But they do have a right to defend themselves. And if the truth be told they are not now occupying all of the land promised to Abraham in the Genesis 15 reitteration of the Abrahamic covenant.

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14. 

    JC

    January 20, 2009 at 7:47 pm

    
    

    Carlos I don’t want anymore history lessons that is the truth! Everything that was done to those PEOPLE were inhumane full stop!

    And Technician you are right children who have seen their parents and loved ones die will FOR SURE wil seek revenge!

    Allah, Jesus Christ, His Empreor Selassie I ……… what ever you all choose to call him would have never respected this TERROR!

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15. 

    Georgie Porgie

    January 20, 2009 at 7:54 pm

    
    

    Actually JC, we have not yet begun to see terror in the fertile crescent. And the Holy Bible predicts it!

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16. 

    Technician

    January 20, 2009 at 8:53 pm

    
    

    @ GP…

    You quoted accurately from the Pentateuch. You pointed out the instructions that God gave to Israel at the time of the Conquest of Canaan. These are instructions that many non Christians find very revolting, even though it has been the pattern of behavior exhibited by conquering nations ever since.
    ***************************************************************

    Then, are you telling me GP, that these instructions were only to be followed or valid for the conquest of Caanan?

    I have always agreed that Israel has a right to protect itself, just not with the disproportionate force used.

    With all due respect GP, you look at this situation as prophecy being fulfilled and that is all well and good for you.

    Are we to stand idly by without emotion, condemnation or responsibility for our action just because it is prophecy?

    Does the slaughter of innocent men, women and children, not to mention the collective punishment and suffering, justify a prophecy that may or may not happen?

    Who or what gives anyone the right to dismiss another’s religion as wrong?

    There are so many religions with so many Gods, how do we know which is the true one.

    In the meantime, wouldn’t it be wise to be tolerant of others, regardless of their beliefs?
    Isn’t this the problem that started the whole mess in the world?

    Now you see, why to me, religion is like modern day slavery.

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17. 

    Georgie Porgie

    January 20, 2009 at 9:14 pm

    
    

    Then, are you telling me GP, that these instructions were only to be followed or valid for the conquest of Caanan? NO I AM NOT SAYING THAT. I am saying that you quoted the Word correctly, and pointed out the context. I offered no other opinion.

    I have always agreed that Israel has a right to protect itself, just not with the disproportionate force used. I AGREE THAT THEY SHOULD PROTECT THEMSELVES ALSO. And I agreed with other commenters that perhaps their motive at this time might have very well be political rather than defensive.

    With all due respect GP, you look at this situation as prophecy being fulfilled and that is all well and good for you. I AGREE

    Are we to stand idly by without emotion, condemnation or responsibility for our action just because it is prophecy? I CANNOT DETERMINE HOW ANYONE SHOULD REACT IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. I CAN ONLY DECIDE HOW I SHOULD REACT.

    Does the slaughter of innocent men, women and children, not to mention the collective punishment and suffering, justify a prophecy that may or may not happen? THAT IS A MATTER FOR GOD TO DECIDE NOT ME. THAT LIKE MANY OTHER THINGS THAT HAPPENS TO MYSELF AND OTHERS IS TOTALLY OUT OF MY HANDS.
    I cant decide if the fulfillment of a prophecy is justified or not. I can only opine on my understanding of the prophetic scripture, and point out if I think that a prophecy is being fulfilled or not. I AM A COMMENTATOR NOT A JUDGE. AS I SAID IN MY LAST POST, THERE IS MUCH THAT I DON’T UNDERSTAND

    Who or what gives anyone the right to dismiss another’s religion as wrong? I DON’T DECIDE IF SOME ONE”S RELIGION IS RIGHT OR WRONG. IM NOT TOO INTERESTED IN RELIGION IM INTERESTED IN BEING CHRISTLIKE AND OBEYING GOD’S WORD, AND WILL ADMIT THAT I OFTEN FAIL IN THIS REGARD.

    There are so many religions with so many Gods, how do we know which is the true one. I CANT ANSWER THAT FOR YOU. THAT IS A PERSONAL THING. I BELIEVE IN ONE GOD
    In the meantime, wouldn’t it be wise to be tolerant of others, regardless of their beliefs? I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH TOLERANCE. YOU WILL NOTICE THAT I OPTED OUT OF THE DEBATE FOR MOST OF ITS COURSE.

    Isn’t this the problem that started the whole mess in the world?
    Now you see, why to me, religion is like modern day slavery. OF COURSE RELIGION IS SLAVERY BUT CHRISTIANITY WAS DESIGNED TO SET MEN FREE! THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!

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18. 

    Technician

    January 20, 2009 at 9:27 pm

    
    

    With the greatest respect…as usual GP.

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19. 

    Dissident

    January 20, 2009 at 10:01 pm

    
    

    Technician, you said, “I CANNOT DETERMINE HOW ANYONE SHOULD REACT IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. I CAN ONLY DECIDE HOW I SHOULD REACT.”

    Respectfully, perhaps that part of the problem. Maybe we should all REACT less and RESPOND more. Because reactions are invariably negative and often lead to incorrect actions, whereas responses are usually thought our beforehand and are usually positive [semantics?].

    The State of Israel, because of their recent history, has often REACTED strongly to all attacks on their security. I would hazard a guess that this is because of their post-WWII “Never Again” pledge. So what may seem disproportionate to you may seem entirely reasonable to an officer of the IDF on the ground in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem.

    Just trying to understand…War is Hell!

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20. 

    Dissident

    January 20, 2009 at 10:08 pm

    
    

    Technician, my sincere apologies, I incorrectly quoted you, when the REACT quote was from Georgie Porgie!

    My mistake! Mea culpa! Sorry ’bout that.

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21. 

    Carlos

    January 20, 2009 at 11:09 pm

    
    

    Technician, your quotations from ‘Killgore’ are most unfortunate, why?

    This man, is utterly without credibility on predictions, analysis or assessment of the history to that point in time.

    He is terribly biased, or downright dishonest. His prediction of a Sharon Premiership are so far from what happened that it CLEARLY shows he does NOT know what he is talking about.

    That he was cited by you as if he were authoritative says a lot about what is going on. Someone was looking for mud to sling, and did not pause to fact check or test for balance.

    I regret I have to spend this precious time dealing with this ‘Killgore’ instead of giving more facts and truth about Israel/Palestine, BUT, it is necessary to dispel the blatant untruths and utter distortions of this man, for the benifit of those who just don’t know the facts.

    CRITICISM:

    “The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs has been characterized by the ‘Commmitte for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America as “virulently anti-Israel,” [3] as “bitterly anti-Zionist” and “the most conspiratorially-mined of the anti-Israel forces” by the Middle East Quarterly, [4] as “a journal known for its strong anti-Israel bias” by Honest Reporting, [5] and as “an anti-Israel publication that frequently serves as an apologist for Muslim American groups advocating anti-Semitism and support of terrorism” by the Anti-Defamation League, [6] Canada’s National Post has also described the magazine as “anti-Israel,” [7] the Jewish Virtual Library has stated that the “WRMEA” publishes many articles that are considered to be anti-Israel and anti-Zionist”, [8] the Jewish Journal of Greater Los Angeles notes that critics view it as “guilty” of frequent factual distortions” and “an unrelenting polemic against Israel”, [2] and Jonathan Tobin, executive editor of The Jewish Exponent has described the publication as “the guidebook to the Arabist lobby in the United States” that “specializes in defaming Israel.” [9]

    Technician, and this is the source that you attempt to quote from, in defense of your position!

    Tomorrow, I will deal specifically with “Killgore’s” maligning of ‘facts’ about Israel from what he misrepresented, all plainly done for the purpose of distorting the truth; this man has no credibility as knowledgeable, as he maliciously twists Weizmann on ‘as English…”

    I respectfully say to you, that like most others, you are unable to discern and recognize ‘psuedo’ writings, from the genuine ones, a most serious problem in today’s world, misleading vast numbers of people, who are sincerely ‘ignorant’ to so much historic facts.

    Have a good night.

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22. 

    Carlos

    January 20, 2009 at 11:15 pm

    
    

    Technician: The info quoted in my last thread was taken from:

    WWW. wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Report_on_Middle_East_Affairs# Crit.

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23. 

    Bush Tea

    January 21, 2009 at 12:38 am

    
    

    @GP
    I am sure that you know that the whole ethos before the resurrection of Jesus was fundamentally different to that which has obtained since.

    God set standards of righteousness by establishing the ten commandments and, for Israel, additional standards of behaviour and conduct were set because they were “God’s people”.

    The general rule was to obey the commandments and expect an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

    It would have been completely expected and normal at that time to have the level of ruthlessness spelt out by Technician in his reference from Numbers.
    However…
    After the single most phenomenal event in history, (when a BBE gave up his status as God to become a man and to die as the ultimate sacrifice – all because BBE loved the project that we call life on earth.) the rules were fundamentally changed.

    First of all, God’s people were no longer the Israelis, but now were those who ‘believed in this saviour and who ‘keep his commandments’. And his commandments are two:
    Love God with all your heart, and
    love your neighbour as you love yourself.

    From a ‘Christian’ perspective therefore we need only analyse the extent to which the participants meet these two applicable commandments.

    The days of solving neighbour -problems by exterminating them, they families, livestock and lifestyles have long gone.

    As President Lincoln said, the best way to destroy our enemies – is to make them our friends… This is the current standard for “God’s people” in dealing with enemies.

    Can we please stop exploring the history of who was right or wrong or who started it all??? Leave that for the UN to spend their time on. It really is not relevant to our main discussion.

    The FACTS are that this ‘war’ was initiated by corrupt men who saw it as an opportunity to distract the electorate from their focus on corruption and incompetence and to refocus them on ‘safety and terror’.

    Unfortunately, they underestimated the power of the internet to expose the inhumane and heart wrenching destruction of life and property that resulted from their little adventure.

    This has created a wave of anger and revulsion across the world -and especially in the region. This wave has the potential to become a tsunami of epic proportions……

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24. 

    Carlos

    January 21, 2009 at 11:00 am

    
    

    Bush Tea:

    Unfortunately, your perspective on this most serious mess in the Middle East, is rather simplistic, and cannot be just pushed under the carpet, as the New Testament, this dispensation, shows The Lord Jesus Christ, specifically speaking to this end-time crisis; Paul deals with it in his Epistles to the Thessalonians, as IT is very central to the unfolding inferno of destruction between Israel and other ME nations.

    As you rightly said, though, “This wave has the potential to become a tsunami of epic proportions.”

    Yes, it is, and no one can stop it! But, the wicked, Satan inspired ‘man’ the ultimate ‘Anti-Christ’ will soon make his appearance, connected, no doubt with the Global economic crisis, and bring a ‘solution’ of Satanic deception, that will deceive the entire world into a false sense of security and peace for all; as even Israel will fall for this, and sign a ‘Seven-year peace treaty’ with him.

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25. 

    Georgie Porgie

    January 21, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    
    

    Bush Tea
    Like all serious theologians and Bible students I study the Bible in a dispensational way, and am well aware of the dispensation of law, which ended at Pentecost, when the dispensation of grace or the Church age began.

    I don’t agree with the erroneous view that God’s people are no longer the Israelis, but are now those who ‘believe in the Saviour. The teaching of Romans 9-11 clearly teach that the gentiles were grafted in, and this concept is reinforced in much of the Pauline epistles; being particularly emphasized in Ephesians chapter two. The grafting in of the gentiles is of course illustrated in the story of Ruth in the OT.

    Like you, I don’t think that the way to solve problems of contiguous nations or countries is by exterminating them, they families, livestock and lifestyles. However, you and I both know that it is not always possible to make our enemies our friends, or to love them as ourselves. Also if I come and attack you and your family without cause, I cant see why I should have the right to determine the extent or intensity of your response.

    I don’t really care what Lincoln said, since he is/was NOT the sole authority for faith and practice.

    Now I want you to understand that I am not taking any sides in the conflict, because I know what the outcome will be, and things will play out according to the scropt in Holy Writ.

    As Carlos correctly states, no one can stop this conflict, so you can sit before your tv, opine on the internet or tear your hair out, or even scoff at Bible believers and expositors. For it is indeed true that “ the wicked, Satan inspired ‘man’ the ultimate ‘Anti-Christ’ will soon make his appearance, connected, no doubt with the Global economic crisis, and bring a ’solution’ of Satanic deception, that will deceive the entire world into a false sense of security and peace for all; as even Israel will fall for this, and sign a ‘Seven-year peace treaty’ with him.”

    There will be more fighting till that happens, and when the AntiChrist breaks the treaty mid way after two and a half years, Israel will be on the receiving end until Christ makes his appearance.

    It may well be fact that this ‘war’ was initiated by corrupt men who saw it as an opportunity to distract the electorate from their focus on corruption and incompetence and to refocus them on ’safety and terror’.

    It may well be fact that they underestimated the power of the internet to expose the inhumane and heart wrenching destruction of life and property that resulted from their little adventure.

    It may well be fact that this has created a wave of anger and revulsion across the world -and especially in the region, and that this wave has the potential to become a tsunami of epic proportions.

    However, exploring the history of the conflict is indeed relevant to the discussion, because what we are seeing played out today, and what will occur in the years to come has been predicted in the Bible, and relates to the question IS THIS THE START OF WORLD WAR THREE?

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26. 

    Bush Tea

    January 21, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    
    

    @GP
    Normally, I try to avoid these types of arguments since I have long learnt of their futility. However I will make an exception in your case because of the level of respect that I have developed for your open mindedness.

    Prophecy is NOT predestination. Do you think that Bush Tea is not aware of EXACTLY what is about to occur? – in vivid detail, my friend.
    BUT you need to be aware that these things will not happen because they were prophesied, but because we, collectively have abused and rejected God’s set spiritual laws.

    What will happen will happen BECAUSE of the collective will, actions, intent and wickedness of us all.

    The fact that some events were prophesied only reflects that a superior level of intelligence, not subject to time and space like us mortals, has taken the trouble to FOREWARN us of the likely consequences of our choices.

    If we were intelligent and wise enough to take heed, then the results (and the events prophesied) could well be completely different…

    I am disappointed that you reject the concept of loving those that hate you, and that you reserve to yourself the right to retaliation.
    The ability to love your enemy is one of the fruit by which you are to be known.

    For example, when someone seeks to unfair a real Christian, they should feel moved to ask God to take it easy on that person, based on past experiences, and out of concern for the retribution that inevitably befalls the offender.

    Even when his own people chose Barabbas over him, and he was cruelly crucified – did Jesus seek or contemplate retaliation? or did he ask BBE to forgive then since they knew not what they were doing…?

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27. 

    Micro Mock Engineer

    January 21, 2009 at 5:26 pm

    
    

    “Now I want you to understand that I am not taking any sides in the conflict, because I know what the outcome will be, and things will play out according to the scropt in Holy Writ.”
    ——————————–

    GP, I encourage you to reflect on that statement. IMHO, the apocalyptic bent of many Christians, especially when reinforced by dispensational theology is very dangerous as it biases Christians against social action.

    Don’t disengage from events around you… God wants us to ‘take sides’ not be passive observers… salt of the earth GP… salt of the earth.

    Both you and BT are underestimating the resilience of the ‘human spirit’. The end is inevitable, but it is entirely within our power to hasten or delay it… believe what you will, but history has taught me that immanentizing the eschaton is unhealthy.

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28. 

    Georgie Porgie

    January 21, 2009 at 6:23 pm

    
    

    ME
    My apocalyptic bent reinforced by dispensational theology does not stop me from engaging in social action or events around me. Of course God wants us to ‘take sides’ in areas where we can help as the salt of the earth. This includes rightly dividing the Word and exposition thereof on BU. Lol.

    The end is indeed inevitable, and the powers of evil seem to out number the good and are doing a good job of hastening the end. Of course the end will ensue rapidly after the believers are taken out of the world as taught in 2 Thessalonians 2.

    I like the new phrase that you are introducing into the literature….the immanentizing of the eschaton. Don’t think that one is known yet at Dallas. Im sure Constable et all will be delighted with that one.

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29. 

    Micro Mock Engineer

    January 21, 2009 at 6:56 pm

    
    

    LOL GP, credit for introducing that phrase goes to the German philosopher Eric Voegelin who used it in one of his famous 1951 lectures. This is what he said: “The problem of an eidos in history, hence, arises only when a Christian transcendental fulfillment becomes immanentized. Such an immanentist hypostasis of the eschaton, however, is a theoretical fallacy.”

    Incidentally, I’ve been reading Dr. Constable’s notes… very informative.

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30. 

    Carlos

    January 21, 2009 at 9:33 pm

    
    

    @ Technician, a bit more accurate information from the post 1948 period.

    As has been shown, hundreds of thousands of Arab-born Jews, apart from a inherent desire to have, and return to a ‘National’ homeland, they had to literally flee from these Middle East countries, who refused them their rights as citizens to sell their properties, etc., and therefore left almost pennyless, now having to try and resettle in their new state.

    But, as Joan Peters writes:

    “A strange and unlikely invitation was extended through the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in 1975. Farouk Kaddoumi, then PLO political department head, declared that all the Jews who had fled from Arab states since 1948 were welcome “to return and exercise their full rights.”

    Peters then goes on to relate:

    “One day later an Iraqi broadcast from Radio Baghdad echoed the PLO offer to “return,” particularly to the 140,000 Iraq-born Jews who are now in Israel. The Iraqi government underscored its invitation two weeks afterward, with a paid advertisements in selected newspapers around the world. Readers of the New York Times, the Toronto Star, or Le Monde would have found the ad dificult to overlook; in half-inch boldface letters, “Iraqi Jews” were “invited to return,” The invitation excluded jews who were Zionists, because “the latter is…racist…directed against Palestinian Arabs…” (From Time Immemorial, The Origins Of The Arab-Jewish Conflict Over Palestine, p.11).

    Clearly, this was a propaganda ploy, as commmon sense would have to conclude, that the vast majority of Jews support Israel and therefore Zionist in sympathy.

    As Peters then state: “According to the Toronto paper, the “real purpose of the ad was to emphasize the “Zionism-is-racism.” The editorial concluded that “Iraq’s ‘come-home’…hypocritical gesture…won’t fool any Jews in Canada, and it shouldn’t mislead anf other Canadians.” (Ibid., p12).

    Interestingly, as Peters reveals: “The PLO’s Kaddoumi has never pretended to hospitality toward the them. In fact, almost simultaneously with his invitation, Kaddoumi had told Newsweek, “This Zionist ghetto of Israel must be destroyed.” (Ibid.,p.12).

    What is the point here? Why were the Arabs attempting to extend a hand, however disingenuous, to the Jews, what was really behind this?

    Well, we must not forget that before the crushing 1967 “Six-Day” war that defeated the Arab countries, by Israel, the “Palestine-for-the-Palestinians” cause was not gaining the momentum as expected. Peters explains:

    “The prominent Arab Palestinian activist, writer, and innovator Musa Alami tried virtually singlehandedly to interest the Arab world in this propaganda program in 1948. in Iraq he was told by the Prime Minister that all that was needed was “a few brooms” to drive the Jews into the sea; by confidants of Ibn saud in Cairo, that “once we get the green light from the British we can easily throw out the Jews.” (Ibid.,p.12)

    The point of what was taking place at that time, 1947, cannot be stressed enough, regarding WHO were behind the insistance, that ALL Arabs who were residing in the land area, now about to be declared the new state of Israel, November 1947 by United Nations’ partition of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state.

    While this planning by world authorities for Israel’s statehood was in its completion stages; the Arab states were hastily planning the destruction of Isreal in her embryonic birth, and as Peters says:

    “Thousands of Arabs, including the more affuent, left for nearby Aran states before Jweish statehood. When Israel’s independence was declared in 1948, the Arab forces combined to CRUSH IT.” (Ibid., p.12) emphasis added.

    This essential, historic fact, that has been deliberatly overlooked, and purposly muffled and muted, by the Arabs, and terribly inverted by people like ‘Killgore’ to make the Israelis appear as the one who kicked out the Arabs from Israel, is a diabolical lie, which cannot stand up the facts of what actually transpired.

    Beckoning to the Arabs.

    Historian Peters writes:

    “At the time of the 1948 war, Arabs in Israel too were invited by their fellow Arabs – invited to “leave” while the “invading” Arab armies would purge the land of the Jews. The invading Arab governments were certain of a quick victory; leaders warned the Arabs in Israel to run for their lives.” (Ibid., p.13).

    Can any honest, right thinking person, begin to imagine what this was like, for the Jews, who after centuries and centuries of dispersion, persecution, treated like ‘dog’s’ as second class citizens, then denied their legal rights of property, etc, etc., fleeing to their ancient homeland, about to try and make a new life and beginning, ONLY, to now have to face WITHIN 24 hours of statehood, a combined attack from Arab countries, whose sole intent and purpose was to DESTROY them!

    And yet, with little or almost no millitary strength, against the combined Arab forces, Israel, not even 3 days old as a state, miraculously survives, can any one not see the Almighty hand of God, the One who gave them this ancient land in Genesis; and swore by His Sovereign covenantal promise, that once their dispersion throughout the world, after over 2000 years, that when He would re-gather them back to their ‘home-land’ that NEVER again would they EVER be uprooted; Yes, they would come under virulent, hateful attempts by their Arab adversaries, BUT, they the Arabs, would NEVER prevail in attempting to destroy them, and the worst is still yet to come, gradually building up that what His Word, states must happen.

    However, let us note carefully, from the records of the 1948 period, when the Arab countries “invited’ those Arabs in Israel to leave, so Israel could be destroyed.

    Peters goes on to confirm:

    “In response, the Jewish Haifa Workers’ council issued an appeal to the Arab residents of Haifa. ‘For years we have lived together in our city, Haifa…Do not fear: Do not destroy your homes with your own hands…do not bring upon yourself tragedy by unnecessary evacustion and self-imposed burdens…But in this city, yours and ours, Haifa, the gates are open for work, for life, and for peace for you and your families.’

    A footnote says. See British report in Appenndiz II. Such as President Truman’s International Development Advisory Board Report, March 7, 1951: “Arab leaders summmoned Arab of Palestine to mass evacuation…as the documented facts reveal…”

    “According to a research report by the Arab-sponsored Institute for Palestine Studies in Beirut, however, “the majority” of the Arab refugees in 1948 WERE NOT expelled, and “68%” left without an Israeli soldier.”

    “After the Arabs’ defeat in the 1948 war, their position became confused: some Arab leaders demanded the “return” of the “expelled” refugees to their former homes despite the evidence that Arab leaders had called upon Arabs to flee. ” (Ibid., p.13).

    But, listen to what then happened, as the Arab leaders now find themselves in a fix, having failed to ‘exterminate’ the Jews only 24 hours after declared statehood, AND, having told the Arabs in Israel to ‘flee’ so Israel could be destroyed; they now attempt using the ‘classic’ Arab use of ‘Turnspeak’ inverting cynically, the facts, to make Israel appear as the “occupier’ of their land.

    “At the same time, Emile Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Command, called for the prevention of the refugees from “return.” He stated in the Beirut Telegraph on August 6, 1948: “It is inconveivable that the refugees should be sent back to their homes while they are occupied by Jews…It would serve as a first step toward Arab recognition of the state of Israel and Partition.”

    Of course, the Arabs countries could never allow that fact, that Israel WAS now a duly, lawfully constituted state, by the United Nations.

    Here is where the ‘Myth’ takes root, in 1948, cleaverly concieved by Musa Alami.

    “Arab activist Musa Alami despaired: as he saw the problem, “how can people struggle for their nation, when most of them DO NOT know the meaning of the word?…The people are in great need of a “Myth” to fill their consciousness and imagination…” According to Alami, an indictrination of the ‘Myth” of nationality would create (a false) “identity” and “self-respect.” (Ibid., p.13).

    This ‘Myth’ a devastating LIE, took root from then, and has been relentlessly propagated and perpetuated by the PLO, other Arab nations, constantly inverting the facts, that Israel was the ‘agressor’ a blatant untruth and lie; as she NEVER started any of the wars, and secondly, because the Arabs utterly failed in DESTROYING the Jewish state, from its inception, they then resort to the ‘Turnspeak’ of accusing the Jews of ‘Occupying’ their land.

    “However, Alami’s proposal was confounded by the realities between 1948 and 1967, the Arab state of Jordan claimed annexation of the territory west of the Jordan River, the ‘West Bank’ area of Palestine- the same area that would later be forwarded by Arab “moderates” as a “mini-state” for the “Palestinians.” Thus, that area was, between 1948 and 1967 called “Arab land,” the peoples were Arabs, and yet the “Myth” that Musa Alami prescribed – the cause of “Palestine” for the “Palestinians” – remained unheralded, unadopted by the Arabs during two decades. According to Lord Caradon, “Every Arab assumed the Palestinians [refugges] would go back to Jordan,”
    (Ibid., p.14).

    But, it must never be forgotten, that for all intent and purposes, the state of Jordan IS the de jure Palestinian state, as this area, 75% of the mandated land for Israel, approved by the then League of Nations, WAS unilaterally taken away from the Jews, by the British, to create the state of Transjordan, now Jordan.

    “Ever since the 1967 Israeli victory, however, when the Arabs determined that they couldn’t obliterate Israel militarily, they have skillfully waged economic, diplomatic, and propaganda war against Israel. This, Arabs reasoned, would take longer than military victory, bt ultimately the result would be the same. Critical to the new tactic, however, was a device designed to whittle away at the sympathies of Israel’s allies: what the Arabs envisioned was something that could achieve Israel’s shrinking to indefensible size at the same time that she became insolvent.”

    “This program was reviewed in 1971 by Mohamed Heikal, then still an important spokesman of Egypt’s leadership in his post as editor of the influential semi-official newspaper Al Ahram, Heikal called for a change of Arab rhetoric- no more threats of “throwing Israel into the sea” – and a new political strategy aimed at reducing Israel to INDEFENSIBLE BOARDERS and pushing her into diplomatic and economic isolation. He predicted that “total withdrawal” would “pass sentence on the entire state of Israel.”

    “A prominent Arab Palestinian strategist, Al-Haytham Al-Ayubi, analyzed the efficacy of Arab propaganda tactics in 1974, when he wrote:

    “The image of Israel as a weak nation surrounded by enemies seeking its annihilation evaporated [after 1967], to be replaced by the image of an aggressive nation challenging world opinion.”

    “As Rosemary Sayigh in the Journal of Palestine Studies, wrote, “A strongly defined Palestinian identity did not emerge until 1968, two decades after expulsion.” It has taken twenty years to establish the ‘Myth” prescribed by Musa Alami.” (Ibid., p. 15).

    “As Al-Ayubi noted, ‘The basic Arab premise concerning ‘the elimination of the results of aggression’ remains accepted by the world.” Thus the ‘noose’ will be placed around the neck of the Zionist entity.”

    “But the Arabs’ creation of the ‘Myth’ of nationality did not create the advantageous situation for the Palestinian Arabs that Musa Alami had hoped for. Instead, the conditions he complained of bitterly were perpetuated: the Arabs “shut the door” of citizenship “in their faces and IMPRISON them in camps.”

    “Khaled Al-Azm, who was Syria’s Prime Minister after the 1948 war, deplored the Arab tactics and the subsequent exploitation of the refugees, in his 1972 memoirs:

    Hear this honest statement by Khaled Al Azm:

    “Since 1948 it was WE who demanded the return of the refugees…while it is WE who made them leave [Israel]…WE brought disaster upon…Arab refugees, by INVITING them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave…We have rendered them dispossessed…We have accustomed them to begging…WE have participated in lowering their moral and social level…Then WE exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon…men, women and children – all this in the service of political purposes.”
    (Ibid., p.16).

    The above, is just the introduction of some facts, all documented, for any honest person to investigate, in order to begin to grasp the ‘Truth’ and facts, concerning the reality of this conflict, than God that a few of the Arab leaders, like the one just quoted, had the conscience of character, to speak the truth, in the face of Arab ‘Turnspeak’ inverting, twisting, and uttely maligning the facts, for evil propaganda political purposes.

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31. 

    Bush Tea

    January 21, 2009 at 9:50 pm

    
    

    @MME
    How about translating some of your concepts into English for us lesser grubs? LOL
    “…an immanentist hypostasis of the eschaton…”????
    Cuddear man!!!
    In any case, I fail to see the danger that you seem to do, in anticipating the end of this miserable phase.

    …The worst possible effect seems to be that those guilty will focus on matters other than the trimmings of this mixed up world…. hopefully dwelling instead on matters of character- like love, respect, helping others, etc.

    In any case, what do you interpret the line in the Lord’s prayer that prays – “thy kingdom come (soon?)”- to mean?

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32. 

    Bush Tea

    January 21, 2009 at 10:02 pm

    
    

    …and MME what is Eidos? are you talking about the think tank or do you mean the EIDOS created in 1982? ….
    ROTFL

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33. 

    Dissident

    January 21, 2009 at 10:41 pm

    
    

    είδος = article, item, kind, nature, sort, species

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34. 

    Not Saved

    January 21, 2009 at 11:02 pm

    
    

    Technician,

    Here is what Noam Chomsky (Jewish MIT professor ) has to say about the “Joan Peters” book

    http://www.chomsky.info/books/power01.htm

    hope you dont hurt yourself when you fall on the floor in laughter

    “historian peters”, LOL !!!!

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35. 

    Not Saved

    January 21, 2009 at 11:06 pm

    
    

    Reviewing the book for the January 16, 1986 issue of The New York Review of Books, Yehoshua Porath wrote that Peters made ‘highly tendentious use — or neglect — of the available source material’. But more crucial, he wrote, “is her misunderstanding of basic historical processes and her failure to appreciate the central importance of natural population increase as compared to migratory movements.” Porath concluded:
    “Readers of her book should be warned not to accept its factual claims without checking their sources. Judging by the interest that the book aroused and the prestige of some who have endorsed it, I thought it would present some new interpretation of the historical facts. I found none. Everyone familiar with the writing of the extreme nationalists of Zeev Jabotinsky’s Revisionist party (the forerunner of the Herut party) would immediately recognize the tired and discredited arguments in Mrs. Peters’s book. I had mistakenly thought them long forgotten. It is a pity that they have been given new life.”

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36. 

    Not Saved

    January 21, 2009 at 11:07 pm

    
    

    From the wiki

    Yehoshua Porath (Hebrew: יהושע פורת‎) is an Israeli politician and an orientalist. In the 1992 election, he was the 13th name on the list of Meretz candidates to Knesset, but later he changed his political views and became a supporter of the right. He opposed the Oslo accords between PLO and Israel. In the Israeli legislative election, 1996 he participated in the campaign of the Likud party and supported its leader Benjamin Netanyahu as a candidate for Prime Minister. Porath is currently Professor Emeritus of Middle East History (formerly Associate Professor of Islamic and Middle Eastern Studies), then Lecturer in the History of the Muslim Countries at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He specialized in the history of the Palestinian nationalist movement and related issues.

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37. 

    Not Saved

    January 21, 2009 at 11:09 pm

    
    

    the book is a long discredited hoax and yet you Technician are the one called an ignorant fool who falls for “propaganda”

    ROFLMAO

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38. 

    Micro Mock Engineer

    January 22, 2009 at 12:09 am

    
    

    LOL… Bush Tea, I was just quoting Voegelin who used the phrase to warn against being so eager to get to the ‘end’ that we abdicate our responsibilities in the present. If you don’t think this is dangerous, read GP again:
    “Now I want you to understand that I am not taking any sides in the conflict, because I know what the outcome will be, and things will play out according to the scropt in Holy Writ.”
    In other words… it has already been written, so there is no use in me speaking out against or trying to stop the atrocities.

    There is no danger in anticipating the ‘end’, or even identifying the type of behaviour that will hasten it… the danger lies in making false predictions about when it will actually happen and the short-term planning and escapist attitude that this often encourages.

    Eidos is a Greek word. In the context used by the classical philosophers, there is no exact English translation for it… english philosophy texts either use the original greek ‘eidos’ or ‘Form’ with a capital ‘F’. Plato first used it in his Theory of Forms to describe the spiritual property (existing outside space and time) that determines the physical appearance of everything in Phase 1 🙂

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39. 

    Georgie Porgie

    January 22, 2009 at 12:21 am

    
    

    Bush Tea

    I know that prophecy is NOT predestination. I wont even attempt to talk about predestination and election on this forum. I am glad that you know exactly what is about to occur.

    These things will happen because they were prophesied, because the one who made the prophesy knew that we would collectively abuse and reject God’s set spiritual laws, as you state I agree with you that the fact that some events were prophesied only reflects that a superior level of intelligence, not subject to time and space like us mortals, has taken the trouble to FOREWARN us of the likely consequences of our choices.

    It is noteworthy that many of these prophesies are written in the past tense. Certainly God knew that we would not be intelligent and wise enough to take heed, and so the results (and the events prophesied) will not be different. If we were intelligent and wise enough to take heed, then the results (and the events prophesied) could well be completely different.

    I did not reject the concept of loving those that hate you, nor have I reserved the right to retaliation. I have merely stated that one cannot determine how another should respond to doing another wrong. I believe that instead we ought not to do wrong to others.

    You asked MME

    In any case, what do you interpret the line in the Lord’s prayer that prays – “thy kingdom come (soon?)”- to mean?

    Does this not refer to the rule of God on earth, as it is in heaven? Will this not occur in the millennium?

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40. 

    Technician

    January 22, 2009 at 12:59 am

    
    

    @ Not Saved……

    Maybe Carlos has not realized it as yet but I have finished the back and forth with him.

    If he is the sole authority on this matter and any evidence anyone brings to dispute his claims is regarded as lies, untruths etc, how can you make any point?
    The arrogant and dismissive style of his comments take away any real debate of the issue. It is his way or the highway, so I took the highway.

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41. 

    patinho

    January 22, 2009 at 3:35 am

    
    

    Carlos,
    You need to read material other that biased Zionist propaganda. In 1948, man gave Jews Israel not God! There wasn’t any Israel before 1948 so Transjordan which predated Israel couldn’t have been mandated to Israel. The British governed Palestine as the land to the west of the river Jordan and to the east of that (yes that vast stretch of land) as Transjordan. You’ve presented so many misleading points and twisted historical facts to suit your agenda.

    What has been happening in this modern “state of Israel” has nothing to do with God but politics. Jews have a historical not a legal claim to land in the Middle East. What rightful claims do you have to property someone in your ancestry owned 2500 years ago? If I found my lineage is from the Kingdom of Ashanti centuries before, do I have right to claim? Come on…you are talking about 2500 years ago. Why not return the entire world to how it was 2500 years ago and put all Celts in Ireland and all Arawaks in South America and the Caribbean. Better yet why doesn’t Carlos willing give up his house and land to the returning descendents of the Arawaks?
    Modern Jews aren’t a pure ethnic group either having interbred or intermarried for millennia. Israel considers a person whose grandparent is a Jew or a person who has converted to Judaism as a Jew and has a right to live in Israel. Does that sound fair to you? Should thousands of people in Arabia have to flee so Daniel Weinberger born in Warsaw, Poland, whose grandfather happened to cohabit with a Jewish woman, can live legally on land they once called home? Doesn’t sound fair to me unless meaning compensation is given.

    The fact is 1/10 of Palestinians were Jews in 1920 by 1940 it was 3/10. The problem was so grave the British had to restrict Jews immigrating to Palestine at which point the Jews replied with terrorism and illegal migration. Approximately 10 million people now live in “Palestine” and roughly 6/10 of them are Jews.

    Western society’s separation of church and state started a couple centuries ago so please don’t try that one. Why would the Jews beg the Palestinians to stay? Jews bent on establishing a permanent home for all Jews asking Palestinians to stay in their Jewish Homeland? What a joke! You speak so much for your Christian faith, the “faith of the west” yet Christians have been persecuting Jews for centuries and chasing them from Europe. Do you remember the Inquisition? I don’t think you do.

    ***********************************
    In 1948 there were more than 850,000 Jews living in the Arab world.
    NOT, European Jews as you incorrectly stated.
    Before Israel became a state in 1948; there were between 125,00 and 135,00 who lived in Iraq; 75,000 lived in Egypt; 30,000 lived in Syria, 55,000 lived in Yemen; 8,000 lived in Aden; 265,000 lived in Morocco’ up to 140,000 lived in Algeria; over 105,000 lived in Tunisia; 5,000 lived in Lebanon; and some 38,000 lived in Libya.

    **********************************

    850,000 Jews in Arab land in 1948 after the formation of Israel. Do you remember that Hitler killed 6 million European Jews? What about the millions that fled during and after his rule? Surely 850,000 by no means can be compared with millions who survived and the millions before who fled and escaped persecution. These Jews in 1948 fled or left Arab lands because of the tension and effect of the Arab-Isreali war just and hundreds of thousands of Arab did in Palestine. Common sense dictates that. Where they once lived is now Israel and in the hands of Israelis. Half of Jordan’s population is made up of Palestinians many refugees.

    Your Christian Zionist views cannot justify what has happened to and continues to happen to Palestinians. Jews are not pure, perfect, God-blessed people…some are evil, greed, jealous and so on just like every other group of people. Your Christianity cannot justify the bombings, assassinations, bullying, terrorizing and war that Israel and Jews have perpetrated. Israel brought war on Lebanon and occupied Southern Lebanon, occupied parts of Syria, Israel destroyed Iraq’s nuclear reactor although Israel has undisclosed nuclear weapons and Iraq had none, Israel refuses to listen to the UN and Israel’s secret agency has assassinated so many opponents of the state and kidnapped Palestinian politicians. What is Godly about these acts? Do you realize that Israel is not for pious Jews? Israel is for people of Jewish ancestry…you don’t have to be Godly. In fact, many of the proponents of Zionism were not practicing Jews but atheists…yes, non-believers. In fact many, had intentions of setting up a Jewish state which stretched beyond the boundaries of Palestine. Check it.

    My goal isn’t really to argue religion because religion is not the focal point of this conflict. This is politics. Britain made false promises to several groups of people to defeat the Ottomans in WW1 and out of sympathy for European Jews (who suffered more persecution, atrocities and ethnic cleansing in your European Christian countries than anywhere in the world) agreed to set up a state for them to the detriment of the resident Arab population. The Arabs ,from the inception, refused this arrangement (having been promised an Arab independent state in the middle east), didn’t agreed to the formation of this Jewish state, didn’t agree with the mass global migration of Jews to Palestine and the changing face of their society and have fought back ever since the Balfour Declaration in 1917. An Israeli State has been created, a Palestinian state has not been created, Israeli civilians and soldiers live in and control parts of Palestine which weren’t allotted to the Jewish state. The West continues to disproportionately support Israel in all spheres of the conflict and do little politically to punish Israel for its crimes and disrespect for international law. So my dear Carlos, don’t try to push this Promised Land story and the Jews are so loving they asked Palestinians to stay on the land they acquired from them nonsense. The fact is the world isn’t only Christian, Jews and Muslims and religious sentiments have no validity here and these world leaders who shaped this conflict and continue to undermine it have nothing Godly on their minds. Humanity must prevail and it is a pity as a self-claimed Christian, you are not thinking like a humanitarian, just someone blinded by faith. I wonder if you were alive in the 16th century, what your views would be on the slavery and racism towards blacks considered cursed by Ham. Just a thought.

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42. 

    Micro Mock Engineer

    January 22, 2009 at 7:29 am

    
    

    “thy kingdom come (soon?)”… LOL BT, I’m sure the fact that we’ve been saying that prayer for the past 2000 years, is not lost on you. What “soon” what?!? 🙂

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43. 

    Micro Mock Engineer

    January 22, 2009 at 7:41 am

    
    

    … you see, unlike the other petitions (eg. “give us this day our…”, “forgive us our…” etc.) that particular line you reference acknowledges submission to His will… you should be thinking “ready when you are” when you say it.

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44. 

    ru4real

    January 22, 2009 at 9:38 am

    
    

    he Arab Palestinians WERE then DELIBERATELY forced into refugee camps and NOT permitted by their Arab brothers to intergrate into the society of their unwilling hosts, even though they WERE FELLOW Muslims.

    Can you honestly fathom this? These Arab countries, with VAST land areas, who could easily have assimilated these brothers of theirs, WHO they ordered to leave Israel, SO they could destroy them, NOW, keep them in deliberate ‘refugge’ camps, under duress, so as to make Israel look like the agressor, and ‘occupier’. A massive LIE.

    These Aran nations, DID not even try to help them, their fellow Muslim brothers! Instead, they prevailed upon the United Nations to supply the refugees’ needs. Kept in these camps by their ‘own’ people, NOT the Jews, for more than 50 years, being used as political pawns so Muslims negotiators can continue to ‘trump’ up charges of “Israeli aggression.” Turnspeak, over and over again, repeated, until this mother of all ‘lies’ is accepted as the truth.
    ————————————–
    Well said and accurate

    They learned this ‘great lie ‘theory from Joseph Gobbels
    Hitlers hench man a great lie repeated enough times gets gullible people to believe in it.
    Hence germans were convinced that jews were the source of all their econoic woes. Now ther arab people -need the Palestinians – at the same time they dont want to live with them.

    they dont act to support them against Israel why?
    because the Arab states fear Islamic militancy as much as anyone else and they dont want Hamas creating havoc that THEY might have to deal with

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45. 

    Carlos

    January 22, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    
    

    @Patinho; as a ‘secularist’, you do not want to factor in any of Almighty God’s
    declarations and pronouncements on the unfolding of human history, which is unfortunate, because all of the Empires described by the Prophet Daniel (chap 2) 606 BC, Gold – Nebuchadnezzar’s Babylon (unquestioned obedience to one absolute sovereign) ruled and dominated for a while, and came tumbling down; 536 BC, Silver – The dual Empire of the Medes and Persians (The 2 arms), lasted for a while, likewise, ended in ruination; 336 BC, Copper -The Greek Empire; likewise gave way to. 200 BC, Iron Legs United- Roman Republic and Empire, until its ultimate demise, 476 and 1463 A.D. all prophesied in God’s Word, the Bible, and presently, the Iron Legs Cracking – European states; and finally, Iron and Clay feet – End-time Lawlessness all rapidly increasing throughtout the world, exactly as God said it would be, and the soon to be 10 Toes -the Revived Rome Confederacy which will come out of the present European Union; watch and see!

    What is the point here?

    Israel and the Middle East conflict, as began in 1948, with the birth of Israel, and the vehement hatred against them by the Arab countries, are ALL part of the predicted and prophesied sequence of events, that must prevail and unfold, exactly as God said it would; and no matter how much you want to disregard this reality, only seeking to view it through the eyes and understanding of ‘secular humanism’ it will never add up to any sense with a ‘worldview’ perspective of this mindset.

    For your and others information, Joan Peters started her monumental research into this ‘Arab-Jewish’ conflict biased toward the Jews, believing what the popular world opinion said; only to find out, by painstaking research, that the documented factuality painted an entirely different picture.

    So, no matter what anyone says, in seeking to repudiate her book as not reliable, let them specifically bring evidence to the contrary, rather than just using rhetorical slander!

    But, Patinho, even though you don’t want to understand, or can’t understand the Biblical aspect of this crisis; let us at least consider the reasonable, logical side, which is conspicuously absent from the facts regarding how the so-called Palestinian ‘refugees’ were used and treated by their Arab Muslim brothers, and obviously so, for their selfish political ends.

    Let us consider some of the facts, as documented.

    As Peters state:

    “According to various estimates, the accurate number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 was somewhere between 430,000 and 650,000. An oft-cited study that used official records of the League of Nations’ mandate and Arab census figures determined that they were 539,00o Arab refugees in May 1948.”

    “There was heated controversy over the exact number of Arab refugees who left Israel. In October 1948, there were already three “official” sets of figures. The United Nations had two, the higher of which estimated the number would “shortly increase to 500,000”, the Arab League’s official figures reported a total already greater by almost 150,000 than the higher UN figures. The swollen Arab League figures could never be verified because the Arabs refused to allow officials censuses to be completed among refugees. Observers have deduced that the Arab purpose was to seek greater world attention through an exaggerated population figure and thereby induce the UN to put heavier pressures upon Israel, to force “repatriation.” (Ibid., pp. 16-17).

    Resettlement Opportunities: Dignity Denied:

    Let us be honest, how is it, and why do the Arab states of nearly 200 million people, with MILLIONS of miles of territory, remain so resolutely steadfast in its rabid rejection of the minuscule Jewish state, that the Arabs have been willing to SACRIFICE the human dignity and plight of their very own people, the Palestinians? WHY? WHY? WHY?

    Peters gives a sound and reasonable answer:

    “The answers lies in what is known – and what is not known – about the region. Having worked to obliterate from the practical dialogue, the history of the Jews as “Palestinian people” and having denied Jewish historical ties to their Holy Land (as in, for example Article 20 of the PLO Covenant), the Arabs have consistently claimed that in the proposed “secular democratic state of Palestine” most of the Jews who are now in their homeland of Israel would have to DEPART, presumably back to their countries of origin – including the little-known major component of Arb-born Jews.”

    “Over the last thirty-odd years, numerous projects have been proposed, international funds approved, studies undertaken, all indicating the benefits that could be derived by the Arab refugees from their absorption INTO the brethren cultures of the Arab host countries. Various international bodies and independent Arab voices over the years have clearly challenged as IMMORAL the position of the Arabs in promoting the continued languishing of the Arbs ’emigres who came within their borders; also deplored on occasion is the Arab states’ departure from the free world’s unvarying precedent: of granting to refugees around the world the dignity of resettlement within a compatible environment where they can become productive citizens. From the beginning, the Arab host governments were offered unprecedentedly broad opportunities based on the refugees’ rehabilitation, which could have help develop their countries’ vast potential under the proposed aid programs.” (Ibid., p.19).

    All of these efforts by international bodies, funds made available, etc, etc., Yet, the Arabs rebuffed every effort to secure realistic well-being for their kinsmen. At a refugee conference in Horms, Syria, the Arabs declared:

    “Any discussion aimed at a solution of the Palestine problem which will not be based on ensuring the refugees’ right to ANNIHILATE Israel will be regarded as a desecration of the Arab people and an act of treason.”

    “In 1958, former director of UNRWA Ralph Galloway declared angrily while in Jordan.”

    “The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it an OPEN SORE, as an affront to the United Nations, as as a WEAPON against Israel. Arab leaders DO NOT GIVE A DAMN whether Arab refugees live or die.” (Ibid., p.23).

    Again here from another honest Arab leader.

    “And King Hussein, the sole Arab leader who, for reasons that later became clearer, directed intergration of the Arabs, in 1960 stated.”

    “Since 1948 Arab leaders have approached the Palestine problem in an irresponsible manner…They have USED the Palestine people for SELFISH political purposes. This is ridiculous and, I could say, even CRIMINAL.”

    Over and over again, the Arab leaders have USED the Palestinian people as an excuse to bring pressure on Israel, for such action in allowing them into their own brothers’ countries, would have resulted in the Arab world’s loss of a weapon against Israel, and would have falsely implied acceptance of the Jewish state, which they could not allow to happen, as their stubborn intent, from the very beginning, WAS and still IS, to DESTROY and ANNIHILATE the Jews from the face of the earth.

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46. 

    Carlos

    January 22, 2009 at 4:52 pm

    
    

    @ Technician; as you have opted to go the ‘By-way’ not the ‘Highway’ you mentioned in an earlier thread, that the debate between ‘Creation’ and ‘Evolution’ both have valid arguments! Really!

    Anytime you are ready to discuss and debate this issue, just let me know; we’ll then see again, who will ‘run-away’ from the facts and evidence!

    Think you are up to it?

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47. 

    Dissident

    January 22, 2009 at 8:06 pm

    
    

    While doing some light reading, I came across this paragraph in a work of fiction, but it bears striking relevance to the situation in the Middle East today.

    “You couldn’t make a political or diplomatic move in the Middle East without tripping over five thousand years of history and bad blood. That was something the Americans, for instance, never understood. Events that took place three millennia [sic] ago were brought up at international conferences as though they had taken place the week before last. Given all that, was there hope for any of them?” [Nelson DeMille, ‘By the Rivers of Babylon’, 1978].

    Makes you wonder…

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48. 

    patinho

    January 22, 2009 at 8:14 pm

    
    

    Carlos,
    You have proved nothing in your response. I don’t think Arabs Muslims want Jews off the face of the Earth maybe out of the Middle East. If your belief was the case, why were there (as you stated) 850, 000 plus Jews in the Arab countries up to 1948? That belief doesn’t hold up. Why weren’t they driven out of the Ottoman Empire, an Islamic society? Why were they allowed to thrive to the tune of almost a million people in the empire? Doesn’t add up.

    That aside, you present nothing that concretely justifies the present or past actions of Israel. Note, I have not and do not advocate that the Palestinians’ or the other Arabs’ hands are clean unlike you who believes everything thing Israel does is justified by the promise to Abraham. Many atheists, communists, socialists and secular men orchestrated the formation of Israel for their political, economic and social and the western powers will do what is necessary to maintain this state.
    Thankfully, there is a ceasefire at the moment but this conflict will go on for a while longer. Israel wants all of Palestine for itself, Palestinians want their mandated part or all of Palestine (depending on who you ask). The West doesn’t want a strong Palestine as that almost signifies the end of Israel. Hopefully, world leaders can come up with a lasting solution soon.

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49. 

    Not Saved

    January 22, 2009 at 8:59 pm

    
    

    Technician,

    I dont think Carlos has realised yet.

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50. 

    Not Saved

    January 22, 2009 at 9:31 pm

    
    

    and he still quotes from a discredited fraud

    LOL

    Apparently, Yehoshua Porath (Professor Emeritus of Middle East History at Hebrew University ) is just full of “rhetorical slander” according to Carlos the theologian

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