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Submitted by Yardbroom

Binyamin Netanyahu, Prime Minister of Israel
Binyamin Netanyahu, Prime Minister of Israel

A United Nation inquiry has made the claim that Israel engaged in:

…a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorise a civilian population in Gaza.

It further asserted that some individuals should face:

individual criminal responsibility and both Hamas and the Israeli committed war crimes and possible crimes against humanity

Although the inquiry subjected Hamas to censure it was not as severe as that on Israel. The conflict Dec 2008 – Jan 2009 – debated on BU ( Barbados Underground)  – was as a result of tunnels built by Hamas to circumvent the Israeli blockade being bombed by Israel.  Hamas intensified their belligerence and fired rockets into Southern Israel in retaliation, causing panic in the civilian population.  In the resultant war when the Israeli Military crossed into Gaza, in excess of 1,300 Palestinians were killed including 320 children, official figures gave the Israeli death toll as 20.

Due to the high number of Palestinians who lost their lives and the disproportionate force used by Israel with consequent civilian damage in Gaza, pressure was put on the UN to conduct an inquiry. The UN chose the  experienced and respected South African Judge Richard Goldstein, he came with a background  suited to the task.  “He was the Chief Prosecutor for the United Nations International Criminal Tribunals for the Yugoslavia and Rwanda from 15 August 1994 to September 1996. He was a member of the International Panel of the Commission of Enquiry into the Activities of Nazism in Argentina ( CEANA ) established in 1997 to identify Nazi war criminals who had emigrated to Argentina.”

The UN inquiry has called for an independent investigation, if this is not done the matter should be referred to the International Criminal Court.

Israel has been robust in their defence of the military action taken in Gaza.  Saying their accusers are against Israel, this is not surprising as the allegations against Israel are serious indeed: the inquiry noted  “Grave breaches” of the fourth Geneva Convention and of a war crime for using Palestinians as human shields.”

It is difficult to understand the reasoning behind Israel’s claim that the accusers are against Israel.  Richard Goldstein – chairman of the UN inquiry – is Jewish and a very experienced Judge, with close ties to Israel.

Mark Regev the Israeli government spokesman has said:…”the Israeli Government is conducting its own investigation into the conflict”.  However, Judge Goldstein responded that ” the Israeli investigations are being conducted behind closed doors and as such are not to an “acceptable standard”.

Israel’s Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu condemned the report as a “kangaroo court”, a charge which does not carry much credence because the Israeli Government refused to participate in the UN investigations…thus having no  input.

Judge Richard Goldstein’s daughter with less hyperbolic language is reported to have said:

“My father is a Zionist who loves Israel.”

“I know better than anyone else that he thought however hard it was to accept it, he was doing the best thing for everyone, including Israel,…”He is honest, tells things how he sees them and wants to uncover the truth.”


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530 responses to “UN Inquiry Accuses Israel Of War Crimes In Gaza”


  1. @ZOE

    Thanks dear – but I am quite familiar with the teachings of the 7 Churches of Asia Minor and the reference used by the JESUS CHRIST to John regarding those who made claims to be JEWS but had apostatized – inculcating damnable heresies into the theology left by CHRIST* Himself and the straight teachings of the pure GOSPEL* given by the APOSTLES*…

    However you want exegete the context of the Synagogue of Satan, is left to the individual – I am taking my parlance from the book by Andrew Carrington Hitchcock – Synagogue of Satan…

    http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Andrew.Carrington.Hitchcock/Synagogue.of.Satan/index.htm

    This is my point of reference and controversially so as well because this “SYNAGOGUE” existed well before the Church of Smyrna (100AD -325AD)…

    A note worthy of observation – out of all the 7 Churches (the 2 JESUS* had no rebuke for was Smyrna & Philadelphia) and maybe the reasons are all too obvious…


  2. @Terence M. Blackett

    So the “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” is an authentic document written by The Learned Elders of Zion?


  3. @ROK
    “So what is the fruit of Christianity?”

    If Jesus walked the earth today in our 21st century world and had to look at “modern Christian religion” – it would look no different to the Judaic system he arrived in 2000 years earlier…

    Christianity after 2000 years has apostatized and lost its way. 1260 years of the DARK AGES where the Roman Church completely corrupted the pure teachings of Christ and set up a “synagogue to Satan”… A place from which we now have modern religion (daughters of that Great Whore)…

    We have had a long epoch of wars in the name of religion; 270 known Christian denominations yet none of them speak with “ONE” voice although they read from the same script…

    The problem has now become where the Creator GOD* is a tyrant, a cold, listless, calculating entity ostracized from the frailness of human imperfections and weaknesses and is responsible for all the evils visited upon human kind…

    Men steal, rob and cheat in the name of God; enslave and incarcerate in the name of God; vilify and condemn those who are just; while death, disease, war and planetary instability is everywhere – this is our world, created by our own hands, yet GOD* gets ALL* the blame…

    Well, HE* must have some pretty broad shoulders or as my “Grannie” would’ve said – “HE gives us all a long, long, long rope”…

    I am thankful mine hasn’t run out yet….


  4. @Nostradamus
    “So the “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” is an authentic document written by The Learned Elders of Zion?”

    What do you think?


  5. @Hopi, Stay vigilent girl, nourish and cherish your Melanin!

    Is dat all you got to nourish and cherish? What utter Crap!


  6. “Is dat all you got to nourish and cherish? What utter Crap!”

    Until that day when Christians learn to respect others, so will respect be shown to them. What more utter crap can there be on earth than the bible.


  7. @Zoe……..Milk for Babies and Meat for
    Men so its about time you go and get your 4 ozs and while your at it don’t forget to tell mamma to change your nappy.


  8. Re Bush Tea // September 20, 2009 at 9:48 AM

    You will note that I am not arguing with anyone.
    And I have not WRONGLY DIVIDED THE WORD NOR AM I TOO DOGMATIC! OK?

    I however agree that Israel were chosen to be models of what the REAL purpose of life is and what living on this earth should and could be like- since this is what the Bible teaches!.

    I agree with you also that “have failed miserably: and that this “ does not detract from their status as ‘chosen’” Again this is what THE Bible teaches.

    I agree with you also that “they were SUPPOSED to do as God’s chosen was to trust in the natural laws of God, to LOVE all their neighbors -even though they were hated. To use their (obvious) talents to develop the whole region (for example – their technology, agriculture etc)… and to DEMONSTRATE to the rest of the world that by putting GOD first and loving your neighbor as yourself, the fruits of the spirit HAVE to naturally follow.” Again this is the clear teaching of the Word of God.

    I agree with you also that “ Israel has opted to trust in the power of weapons and technology to protect themselves. Through ingenuity and resourcefulness they have ’succeeded’ to some extent over the last 50 years or so. HOWEVER, in the process, they have killed, maimed, lied, bribed and done all of the things (including genocide) that our natural instincts lead us to do – …..they did these things well.’

    I agree with you also that ‘the consequences for Israel will be inevitable and dire, but ONLY because in their ‘wisdom’ they trusted in their god of technology instead of the God of love. Had they taken the other path, the results would have been phenomenal. ..and the world would now have been amazed at the levels of respect, admiration and love for that country in the region and beyond…. The fact is that all of us have generally made the same choice as Israel in our own ways. So too, we will ALL suffer appropriate consequences of our individual choices.”

    You seem to have a grasp of the subject. I do not see any difference in your position and that which I hold, from your post. I can not see how you can take issue of my correct division of the portions of the Psalms and Minor Prophets to which I alluded because they were ALL RIGHTLY DIVIDED IN THEIR CONTEXTS, hey all pertain to the predictions concerning Israel and the eschaton. It seems clear to me that this time is on the horizon.

    You do well to “sweat when the whole world decides to cry ‘…peace peace….’” Because we are taught in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 teaches “For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”


  9. Zoe has correctly opined that “ One CANNOT understand Israel and the Middle East crisis, without deep, prolong studies, both Biblically and historically, obviously what many have not done, hence the utter ignorance coming forth from the comments of many.”

    The Bible is proving to be very accurate in its prediction about what is happening in the area of the Fertile Crescent today. It is also very accurate in its positionings of the kings of the east, the kings of the west and the kings of the south. Those of who have been studying Eschatology for 25 years or more are quite excited to see these prophecies being fulfilled before our very eyes. We are also amazed at the current events that will put the kings of the east and the revived Roman Empire or the “ten toes of the image of Daniel 2 & 7 : in place.

    Hopi You are a source of amusement as you seek to find loop holes in my Theology.

    I did not just say …………..”Most believers believe?” … and you know it. But to clarify it for those who you might confuse with your mocking and scoffing, let me say it this way. Among believers in Christ, they are differences in opinion about when the tribulation will occur. rue Among believers in Christ, they are differences in opinion about the timing of the rapture.

    Most believers believe that there are two phases to the second coming. In the first phase or the Rapture or Parousia Jesus comes FOR the Saints and meets them in the air. In the second phase a few years later, he comes WITH the Saints, and descends on the Mount of Olives as taught in Zechariah at the glorious appearing o EPHINAEA. Other believers think that the rapture and the glorious appearing occurs simultaneously.

    I am sorry if you are confused or incognizant of what the Bible teaches or the several opinions for or against any particular concept, but I know what I am talking about- even if you don’t.

    And by definition believers believe; consequently there are no unbelieving believers.

    Note Jews of this current age or dispensation are treated like every body else. If they miss the rapture 2 Thessalonians 2 teaches that those left behind will be deluded and believe the LIE propagated by the antichrist at that time.

    At no time did I say that unbelieving ‘jews’ will be caught up in the second phase of the second coming. Go read Revelation for your self and see what it says.

    At no time did I say that jews’ are chosen by God because they are special. Nor does the Bible teach this. I said that they were CHOSEN EVEN BEFORE THEY BECAME A PEOPLE. This is the clear teaching of the Genesis record!
    Hopi Why don’t you tell us the WHOLE BLACK HISTORY. I want to learn about IDI AMIN and MUGABE and TAYLOR and the BLACKS IN NIGERIA AND KENYA AND OTHER PLACES WHO HAVE COMMITED MANY ATTROCITIES. I WANT TO LEARN THOSE THINGS TOO.

    START A THREAD AND EDIFY US ALL


  10. @GP……….The ‘jews’ wrote themselves into that Bible with the blessing of the Vatican, took away your real BOOKS OF KNOWLEDGE and leave you to believe their LIES!

    Would I attempt to put Idi Amin on a pedestal as high as the christians have placed the lying blood-letters? NO! For starters he was wrong for taking weapons from the israelis, but he was right for expelling them. He was very critical of them and rightly so. And seeing that they[jews] own the media went into all out demonisation against him. He also nationalised the British-owned businesses and expelled the Indians. So there you have a few reasons to show him up as a monster. Don’t forget that he who controls the printing presses controls the minds of the populace. Do I revere him for killing his own people? Hell NO. But if they collaborated with the enemy, they were game.

    For every Idi Amin you have your Ariel Sharon.

    Now what did Taylor do?
    What did George Bush do?

    Why do you despised Mugabe?


  11. GP, No wonder you have to be constantly correcting Hopi, on wrongly quoting you, after all, she still has the ‘umbilical’ cord of Hotep rapped around her neck, ‘Stillborn’ Dead, can’t feed on anything that gives LIFE!

    Let the Dead bury their Dead!


  12. Hey Zoe………Looks like its feeding time again. Did you run out of milk?


  13. Bush Tea

    “by the way, is tomorrow the international day of peace”

    “Everyone crying out for peace but no ones crying for justice.” Pete Tosh 1972

    Why is there no International Day for Justice and fairplay” BAFBFP 2009


  14. Terence M. Blackett // September 20, 2009 at 3:32 PM

    Zoe is 100% male..! You should know(believe) this.


  15. @BAFBFP
    “Why is there no International Day for Justice and fairplay”
    *************************************
    Because everyone seems to want to arrive at the destination as quickly as possible. Few want to take the journey.

    ….so we want peace – while ignoring justice
    …we want success – without bothering to be fair and just
    …we want money – and few really like to work
    ..and we want to go to heaven- but no one wants to die….

    ….by the way B, do you think that Zoe got your point – that the REAL test of Christianity is not in one’s knowledge and research depth about the bible, but MUCH more about the spirit of LOVE, respect and consideration shown to others…..especially those who are against you.


  16. Bushman

    Zoe is not capable of such sentiments, particularly the “respect” thing. The Professor has a similar trait. You cross him and he will heap scorn like you have not seen. Rump challenged him on a medical point and GP tore into his rump, pontificating that unless he read medicine he had no business discussing such matters. In fact the Prof yesterday said to me that ‘Romans “NOT ALL ISRAEL ARE ISRAEL” is very high above my head to explain’. I don’t know, I’ve got (or had) a fairly good grasp of quantum mechanics and relativity and … what does it matter..!

    RESPECT is a concept/sentiment that Christians do not embrace though they speak freely of love.

    I am glad Bushman that you got it though..!


  17. @ Bush Tea, BAFBFP, et al, are seriously confused about “…the spirit of LOVE, respect and consideration shown to others…especially who are against you.”

    The Saviour of mankind, none other than the Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal embodiment of LOVE Himself, had some scathing remarks for those who deserved it, let us hear Him!

    “The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying to Him (Jesus), get thee out, and depart hence, for Herod will kill thee. And He (Jesus) said unto them, Go ye, and tell THAT FOX (Herod) I cast out devils, and do cures today and tomorrow…” (Luke 13: 31, 32a).

    Lets hear Jesus again:

    “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of Hell?” ( Matt. 13: 33)

    Hear Paul:

    “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. BUT, if any man be IGNORANT, let him be IGNORANT.” (I Cor. 14: 37,38). emphasis added.

    You all are confusing the difference between, respecting ones right to express their views, opinions, etc, and respecting what they opine, a world of difference between these two points.

    If you are IGNORANT, clearly lacking in knowledge on a particular subject matter, however much it is YOUR RIGHT to express your views, it STILL remain IGNORANCE, especially when, as is done on BU by a number of commentors, who are grossly ignorant on Biblical and historic matters, and yet, continue voicing down right nonsense; they need to be rebuked, as Jesus and Paul unreservedly did, to those who were ignorant, arrogant and stupid, FOOLS!


  18. BTW…BAFBFP, As you said, “I’ve got (or had) a fairly good grasp of quantum machanics and relativity and…what does it matter..!”

    Then, stick to the subject matter that you have (0r had) a fairly good grasp of, a subject that I know nothing about, so if I sought to engage you on quantum mechanics and relativity, I would be ‘ignorant’ to do so, and you would be entirely right, in telling me I am ignorant on such matters!


  19. Just heard Obama described as a muslim, by a Jew and, ‘dangerous to the interests of Israel’! Is that a widely held view! If so, do we really have a muslim in the Whitehouse and what r the implications for us all!!


  20. Hopi re Idi Amin, ‘Do I revere him for killing his own people? Hell NO. But if they collaborated with the enemy, they were game’

    Just lovely.

    So why do all of us not think like that and just have one big rumble???

    Probably the subject of the discussion is going to end like that anyway.

    Because no one can discern or rather is willing to discern evil and reject evil, whatever form.

    One big, jolly, rumble, just like in the school playground, when if you did not like something, you fought, rather than use non violence to move on.

    Absolutely GREAT!

    THIS, yes THIS, is why we are today, just where we are, because some just want to rumble.

    As the cartoons say,

    That’s all folks!

    Peace


  21. Oh, by the way, remember that in a schoolyard and as Idi Amin showed, in a rumble, the biggest and baddest, or the most ig’runt, wins.

    Mind-boggling.


  22. @BAFBFP
    “Zoe is 100% male..! You should know(believe) this…”

    Hey B*, how would I’ve known that???

    Moreover, I am not gender bias!!!

    ZOE* is pretty ardent and that something to be admired…

    Commentators on BU hold very strong opinions and feelings but that is also a good thing…

    As you well know BRUV* – religion (especially Biblical theology) continues to divide us (just as the Quran does with Muslims) because men want to exegete Scripture through the eye of human presupposition, forgetting that “SPIRITUAL THINGS ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED”…

    So I try as far as is humanely possible to remain calm when discussing religious matters so as not to get too emotionally entangled in a fracas…

    In the end, it’s about winning friends and influencing your adversaries…LOL

    Blessings!!!


  23. The Promised Land (Hebrew: הארץ
    המובטחת‎, translit.: ha-Aretz ha-
    Muvtachat) is a term used to describe
    the land promised by God, according to
    the Hebrew …

    http://555dubstreet.wordpress.com/2009/09/20/promise-land/


  24. Mahatma Gandhi’s seven deadly sins:

    * Wealth without Work
    * Pleasure without Conscience
    * Science without Humanity
    * Knowledge without Character
    * Politics without Principle
    * Commerce without Morality
    * Worship without Sacrifice

    His grandson Arun added an eighth sin:

    * Rights without responsibility.

    I strongly believe that analysis of these perilous traits should be a feature of the curriculum our schools.


  25. @ Terence

    I should have made a better attempt at being facetious, but yes she is a man, 100%.

    @ Zoe

    RESPECT in this case starts with the understanding that knowledge is not absolute. We’re discussing Israel and Palestine today and you are quoting Bible prophecy. I like Carson, Hopi, Bushy, Pat and others have an opinion on the subject that stem from other ‘accounts/interpretations of history’. Why should it be necessary to have to detail this to you?


  26. @Rumpi…………You too like Zoe, should go a get your bottle. Where’s your comment on Ariel Sharon?


  27. @ BAFBFP
    “I should have made a better attempt at being facetious, but yes she is a man, 100%….”

    Is that not the same thing there are saying about the South African athlete?

    You are really a “cheeky” git…


  28. @Anonymous
    “I strongly believe that analysis of these perilous traits should be a feature of the curriculum our schools…”

    Could it be that the sad irony (if not tragedy) of our society is that the curriculum for life should begin in the home with parents who understand the values that Gandhi espouses which would really leave very little for our so-called “hallowed” institutions of learning to do….

    BUT* – if parents are dysfunctional, inept and clueless as to their own moral worth and spiritual compass (many of us forgetting that MAHATMA* was a deeply religious as well as spiritual man) – then how in the world can sacrosanct values be passed on either way???

    Like in Britain, as elsewhere, where we palm off the building of character to teachers, secular humanists, apologists and others who frankly (“cannot even decide what’s for lunch”) to be the ones to shape, mold and direct the fragile consciousness of our children…

    No THANKS* matey!!!!

    Like me ‘ole gran-ma would say – “charity begins at home – then spread abroad…”


  29. @Terrence Blackett

    Fair comment. I too would wish that such values be taught at home along with really useful skills and knowledge like the Amish of North America do. However it seems that the values espoused by Gandhi are either not known or shared by the majority so schools may be our last (futile?) hope. On reflection on your comment, I may agree that situation in Barbados is about as good (or bad) as it will ever get so “eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die”.


  30. @Anonymous
    “I may agree that situations in Barbados is about as good (or bad) as it will ever get so “eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die”….

    According the much reviled (yet charming as a rattle snake) Bill O’Reilly of FOX News – your statement is “pithy”…

    But permit me with all due respect to say in the forgotten language of some of my “native American” brothers – [“”Mi Taku Oyasin.” (We Are All Related)] and although you may have inadvertently quoted St. Paul’s reference in 1st Corinthians 15: 32 which says: …. “if there be no resurrection from the dead? Then if there is no resurrection, ‘let’s eat (feast) and drink (get drunk) and be merry for tomorrow we die”…

    Many falsely attribute your statement to SOLOMON* (that wise and noble king) based on Ecclesiastes 2:24-25 but a correct reading within context does not invoke his much maligned cynicism of life…

    The statement of fact for far too many in our world is based on the meaninglessness life throw at them and so though a reality – it remains a Sybarite euphemism .

    We must aim for more than just shallow living; living only for base, obdurate, erudite, selfish pleasures…

    Life is SHORT (depending on your height) but far too precious to squander!!!


  31. BAFBFP wrote on / September 21, 2009 at 8:58 AM
    RESPECT in this case starts with the understanding that knowledge is not absolute. We’re discussing Israel and Palestine today and you are quoting Bible prophecy. I like Carson, Hopi, Bushy, Pat and others have an opinion on the subject that stem from other ‘accounts/interpretations of history’. Why should it be necessary to have to detail this to you?

    I don’t know about Zoe, but I don’t post on BU to get respect.

    Whereas knowledge is not absolute, BIBLE TRUTH IS! And Bible prophecy is relevant to any discussing about Israel and Palestine today, because current events in the Fertile Crescent is fulfillment of Bible Prophecy.

    If posters don’t know Bible Prophecy or don’t care about Bible Prophecy or see the relevance of Bible Prophecy, that does not negate the fact of its relevance.

    I have already pointed out that I know that some don’t accept or believe the Bible for what ever reason. If I am willing to accept that, why cant others accept the fact that others do believe it and are able to articulate its contents and present an alternative view.

    It would have been OK if I had quoted from Shelly or Sheridan or Shakespeare………but NOT Scripture!

    I don’t think that anyone has any aversion to the opinions of those “on the subject that stem from other ‘accounts/interpretations of history’, but don’t you think that it would be reasonable for you to cite or detail your information, as I sought to detail from a few passages in the Psalms and Minor Prophets, my view on the relevance of Bible Prophecy to current events in the Fertile Crescent?

    You guys talk about respect, but because you have no respect for the Word of God, you show disrespect to my opinions without even thinking to examine what I was saying in order to ascertain if there was any sense, in so much that at one point I had to point out to CCC that we were saying the same thing about the Jews.

    Pat declared that I was not objective because I quoted Scripture; when all I did was to point out that Psalms and the Minor Prophets predict that the events currently happening would do so.

    Apparently to her “objectivity” means that we should all agree, or that we should all agree not to mention the Bible or its contents on BU, even though its predictions accurately describe contemporary events in the Fertile Crescent.

    As Zoe pointed out, he or I don’t comment on BU in areas of which we know we are ignorant. But every time that we comment on perhaps the one thing we know well ( and apparently much better than others on this forum) we are harassed.

    Even my buddy BT condemned me of being wrong and arguing with a Biblical novice, and being dogmatic, before himself dogmatically stating positions that I also hold, but which I didn’t comment on, simply because they were not addressed in the texts that I exegeted.

    I do not apologize for telling you that Romans teaches that “NOT ALL ISRAEL ARE ISRAEL” and that it is probably high above your head to explain….. BECAUSE IT IS! Many scholars and teachers run from Romans, especially the DISPENSATIONAL section of chapters 9-11, where that concept is addressed amidst the big argument “Is God finished with Israel?”

    “NOT ALL ISRAEL ARE ISRAEL” floors many.

    When Rump challenged me on a medical point, we had a rigorous debate, and I didn’t pontificate at all. I told him the truth and recent information indicates that I was indeed correct! Because I don’t talk about things about which I know nothing.

    There is this notion that Christians should let people treat them as door mats. Even many Christians subsribe to this nonsense. However, Zoe pointed out to you that the Bible’s greatest hero- the Lord Jesus himself, and the early churches hero Paul, did not suffer fools gladly! And this you can not deny.


  32. @ BU FAMILY et al

    WHY IS THE DISCUSSION ON THIS THREAD BASED PRIMARILY & CENTERED AROUND ALL THINGS JUDEO-CHRISTIAN?

    Where is the Arab factor?

    What happens to the others sons of Abraham?

    Or are they NOT* part of God’s covenant?

    Are THEY* children of a lesser or ANOTHER* God?

    Come on Folks – if we are going to be well-rounded in our arguments – let’s turn the debate on its head…

    IT’S ONLY FAIR guys!!!!!


  33. Well if you know all about it why dont you lead the discussion.

    I have spoken about what I feel qualified to speak.

    Very little else of substance has been posted except that the Israelis are wicked, which I have not denied!


  34. BAFBPT, As GP pointed out, “Whereas knowledge is not absolute, BIBLE TRUTH IS.” Absolutely so! Because TRUTH is absolute!

    Bible prophecy re Israel has, and IS confirmed by literal historic veracity, OVER and OVER again, right up this point in time.

    This IS what is know as COHERENCE, man, cogent, evidence, man! This is NOT some subjective opinion, this IS rational objective FACT!

    The structure of justification, in defending any propositional TRUTH claim, IS COHERENCE!
    Coherence, is our sole criterion for TRUTH!

    Therefore, the Biblical (propositional) prophetic pronouncements, have, and are, being emphatically confirmed, COHERENTLY, by the literal unfolding of ALL that happened, and continues to occur with Israel vis-a-vis its Arab enemies.

    Correspondence is a two-placed relation between a ‘proposition’ and the state of affairs that IS its intended object.

    To put this more simply; Almighty God in His Word, through His prophets, gave us His ‘correspondence’ in the Bible, prophetic ‘propositional’ pronouncements re Israel, its intended object; which HAVE and continue to unfold, exactly as He said it would!

    Therefore, God’s TRUTH, is grounded in intentionality! And, must come to pass as HE said it would, and IS doing so right now!

    As Simon Greenleaf, a father of the theory of evidence, in his famous work, ‘Testimiony of the Evangelists…rule of municiple law, said:

    “A proposition of fact is proved when its truth is established by competent and satisfactory evidence.”

    BAF, you and others, are clearly lacking adequate knowledge and ‘facts’ not only from God’s Word, BUT, also the historic evidence and facts re Israel’s history, especially from its statehood inception in 1948, and consequently, are woefully unable to make any valid assessment of the Truth.

    This is NOT my opinion, this is fact! Truth, is based on understanding, knowledge, and intellect’s assent to TRUTH!


  35. Sigh…Terrence Blackett as you say ” Life is SHORT but far too precious to squander!!!”

    So I am off to try to get myself as much “base (down and dirty), obdurate (ah yes persistently wrong), erudite (?!! dumb as in blond is preferable), selfish pleasures (with other mutually selfish persons).”


  36. @Anonymous

    Don’t forget to buckle up – even “dummies” do it!!!


  37. Zoe / Professor

    I will for the sake of argument agree that your Bible then is truth and that it is absolute. So again we are stuck with your interpretation while “Articulating its contents and presenting an alternative view”.

    Yes “Minor Prophets may predict the events currently happening” and “prophetic pronouncements, have, and are, being emphatically confirmed, COHERENTLY, by the literal unfolding of ALL that happened, and continues to occur with Israel vis-a-vis its Arab enemies” and “God’s TRUTH, must come to pass as HE said it would, and IS doing so right now” but the problem is that current events as most of us see them derive from what is reported. Now “Coherence, is our sole criterion for TRUTH!” so is it not coherent to allow for the posibility that such reporting could be biased for any number of reasons?

    “Christians should let people treat them as door mats”.. yes… because their egoes do most of the talking for them and because, well, is that not what turning the other cheek means?.


  38. BAFBFP

    Re “Christians should let people treat them as door mats”.. yes… because their egoes do most of the talking for them and because, well, is that not what turning the other cheek means?.

    Apparently neither Jesus or Paul did not think that being treated as a door mat equates with turning the other cheek. And does everyone else NOT have an ego, even those who are not adding to the debate?

    And neither Zoe or I have a problem that the “current events as most of us see them derive from what is reported. Now “ because current reporting indicates that what the prophets foretold, is occurring NOW, and that it is happening just as predicted and just as believers expect them to be happening NOW.

    Some may want to take issue with the bias of the reporting, but I don’t, because as I will repeat there are very tough times ahead for the Israelis whether one believes the Bible or not, or whether one hates or loves the Israelis, or whether one considers them loathsome or evil or despicable or whatever, or whether the reporting is accurate or biased……NOW

    It is also true that just as the prophetic scriptures predict a dark period for Israel, and that this time is fast approaching and definitely NOW at the door, and as PREDICTED; so too does the Bible predict the time when the Lord Jesus will come and deliver them from their enemies.

    Like the current reporters I am just NOW reporting that contemporary events were predicted thousands of years ago, and are just happening NOW as they were predicted.


  39. Prof

    I am sure you are familiar with the very plausible notion of self fulfilling prophecies.

    ‘Nuf said..


  40. @BAFBFP, Your question, premise, “So is it not coherent to allow for the possibilty that such reporting could be biased for any number of reasons?”

    This question/statement of yours is not is not logical, it IS NOT coherent! Why not?

    In order for the reporting of what transpired with Israel and its Arab enemies since 1948, to be twisted in favour of Israel, simply does NOT cohere, (stick, blend, merge), as the world was/is watching, the international media, from a variety of countries, are paid to report, with facts of figures, pictures, interviews, etc, etc, plus the factual STATEMENTS made by a number of Israel’s foes, who made it abundantly clear what their objective/agenda was/is; and what was/is this agenda?

    Here are a few of those statements re Institutionalized Anti-Semitism.

    “The Resurrection of the dead will not come until Muslims WILL WAR with the Jews and the Muslims will KILL them…the trees and rocks will say, ‘O Muslim, here is a Jew behind me, come and KILL him.” (The Prophet Mohammad, From the Hadith, which records the acts and sayings of Mohammad).

    “The power struggle between Israel and the Arabs is a long-term historical trial. Victory or defeat are for us questions of EXISTENCE or ANNIHILATION, the outcome of an irreconcilable hatred.”
    (Al Riyadh Saud, Founder of The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia).

    “The war is open until Israel CEASES TO EXIST, and until the last Jew is eliminated.” (Hamas Leader).

    “The Arabs do not cease to act for the EXTERMINATION of Israel.” (An Egyptian junior high school grammar exercise).

    El-Nur, a weekly publication of the Muslim Brotherhood, circulated over 100,000, said October 22, 1986. “We wait for the moment that ALL JEWS will gather in Palestine and that will be the great day for enormous MASSACRE.”

    Muslims have quoted the “Quraysh Model” as justification for many deceptive treaties. It means, “Negotiate ‘peace’ with your enemy until you become strong enough to ANNIHILATE him.” This is the justification Chairman Yasser Arafat gave to his critics who condemned him for signing the Oslo Agreement.

    The foregoing is just scratching the surface of open statements made by Arab leaders over the years, vehemently expressing their sole objective, the DESTRUCTION and ANNIHILATION of Israel and its people.

    This has been going on for the past 60 years, and every time they try to destroy Israel, they are defeated. Each and every time, they, the Arabs states, START the war.

    It is all there well documented for any serious person to investigate.

    But, Arabic ‘Turnspeak’ a deliberate twisting of the facts, and repeated statements, such as, ‘End Israeli aggression” or ‘End Israeli occupation’ has been reported so often over the years, that most people who don’t knows the FACTS, believe this vicious LIE.

    What IS coherent, are the FACTS over 60 years of blatant agression against Israel, coupled with their intent, to DESTROY Israel, BUT, they can’t, because Almighty God will not let this happen!


  41. Zoe

    In the final analysis, regardless to if folk agree with the press reports or not, or whether they deem them fair or truthful reporting or not……………they can not spin the fact that thousands of years ago God spoke through the prophets, and that what the prophets predicted have/is indeed come/coming to past.

    It is true that the average person has not been following the history of Israel over the last 60 years 0or at all. Neither have they researched the history of the land or the origin of the people now referred to as Palestinians.

    BAFBFP

    We are not here discussing self fulfilling prophecies. We are talking about how a simple exegesis of a few passages of the Minor Prophets relates to the events that are HAPPENING NOW!

    Believe it or reject it. Mock and scoff if you desire……….but you can not change the facts that certain predictions are being fulfilled NOW………..and I am using your word, as you can see NOW.


  42. Prof,

    I am just wondering what the plight of the Zionists in Israel over the last 60 years would have been without the kind of support that it enjoyed/enjoys from the US. Their continued existence in that part of the world is unnatural. You see Zoe you can be assured that there are very valid, very human reasons for these hostile comments. Basically I am witnessing a proxy war being staged to look like Bible prophecy. That’s just me..

    One thing guys the most influential people in media today, whether entertainment or news are indeed Jews. Do I really have to give you proof of this?


  43. BAFBFP

    I cannot say what the plight of the Zionists in Israel over the last 60 years would have been without the kind of support that it enjoyed/enjoys from the US.

    And I agree that there might be very valid, very human reasons for all the hostile comments. But what has been written thousands of years ago, was written thousands of years ago.

    And no you don’t have to give me proof of the fact that the most influential people in media today, whether entertainment or news are indeed Jews.

    Since the Orthodox Jews today don’t believe in the Bible like Christian Jews and since . Orthodox Jews are in the vast majority, why would the guys stage a war to look like fulfilled Bible prophecy.

    What is also true is that the most influential people in media today CAN NOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING IN THE FERTILE CRESCENT. They can control the media and give what ever slant they wish; whether Semitic or anti Semitic, but they CAN NOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING IN THE FERTILE CRESCENT NOW.

    How on earth can a set of people make something look like if prophecy is being fulfilled. Pray explain that to me , my dear friend. I am willing to learn this new thing, Sir.


  44. You see Prof in the world that I live in if there is truth to be found, if there are culprits to be blamed you can be assured that there will be a money trail. There is money to be made in war… BIG money. Even Israel, with the benefit of US’s seed and working capital and original technologies, is involved in this business.

    When the Blacks gained control of the South African government that country removed itself from the membership of this esteemed group.

    Israel’s continued presence in the Middle East and its arrogant aggressive posturing is not by accident, but to my mind yes, it is as a result of prophesy, prophesy that is making a lot of money for people/governments around the world. Today, Israel is on it’s own a militarily powerful country, but should the US and other Western powers withdraw all of their support like they did to Cuba, Uganda, Libya, Afghanistan, Zimbabwe and others it would almost certainly be wiped from the face of the Earth in short order, perhaps with a large slice of the surrounding area (Fertile Crescent?) as well. Prophecy makes the situation convenient to those who need support from Christians (the West).

    The “people who are making something look like if prophecy is being fulfilled” are the ones who stand to gain most from it, Defense Contractors and all the people/governments that they do business with. The Jews are prety much victims too in all of this, but I am sure they do not mind too much.


  45. BAFBFP

    You have correctly asserted that “Today, Israel is on it’s own a militarily powerful country, but should the US and other Western powers withdraw all of their support like they did to Cuba, Uganda, Libya, Afghanistan, Zimbabwe and others it would almost certainly be wiped from the face of the Earth in short order, perhaps with a large slice of the surrounding area (Fertile Crescent?) as well.”

    Again your argument is in keeping with the prophetic Scriptures. Soon it will seem that Israel will be wiped from the face of the Earth in short order.

    However, the Bible predicts in several places that the Lord Jesus himself will return and single handedly win the Battle of Armageddon, and destroy utterly the enemies of Israel.

    We know that there are several agencies in the USA who provide support for Israel, but we know too from studying Bible Prophesy that all the support that they can /will give will not prevent the process which is already in progress as predicted by the prophets.

    They wont be able to put Humpty Dumpty together again. Only Jesus can fix the problems of Israel, as the Bible predicts.

    Support from Christians (the West) WILL NOT PREVENT ISRAEL FROM GOING THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION, also called the TIME OF JACOB’s TROUBLE inter alia.

    The predicted events concerning Israel and the end times WILL COME TO PASS, and have begun to come to pass. And as you correctly stated, we are seeing the so called “mighty” USA begin to turn their backs on Israel, as the now no longer “so mighty USA” prepares to take its place in the organization that is essentially what is referred to in Ezekiel as the “kings of the east.”

    The train marked THE END TIME DESTINY OF ISRAEL has already left the station, and NO ONE CAN STOP IT UNTIL IT RUNS ITS COURSE and reaches the station called ARMAGEDDON. There the enemies of Israel will meet the returned Jesus Christ.


  46. BAFBPF, The hostility and hatred against the Jews goes way back into the Old Testament, all there for anyone to read, not to mention the Post Apostolic history of them over the last 2000 years.

    Yes, their disobedience and idolatry to their One true God, the Father our Our Lord Jesus Christ, resulted in them being dispersed throughout the nations of the world, exactly as prophesied in the Bible, and their regathering back to their Ancient home land, all promied by Almighty God, occured in 1948.

    No other ethnic group of people on the face of the earth have had such a history for over 3,500 years, with Almighty God using in His own soveriegn way, which ever nation(s) He chooses to assist the Jews and the State of Israel, that IS HIS business, for He IS Soveriegn in all of His doings.

    You can twist, include, dismiss, and continue to scoff at the historic facts and reality regarding Israel, they are the very APEX of the fulfillment and consummation of ALL End-Time prophecy, unfolding before our very eyes day by day, exactly as foretold in God’s Word, the Bible.

    Facts are stubborn things, and only the stubborn refuse to accept them.


  47. Zoe,

    All I can say is that if Blacks had access to the kind of historical data that is available to Jews about their own plight over the past 3500 years (I understand from Hopi and others that much of it has been deliberately destroyed) you might find that they too would be deserving of your sympathies.

    I have always and will continue to disagree with you both. If there is such a thing and a “Christ” and he does return, then it will be curtains for me and a whole lot of other very good people who just do not buy into what you are saying, facts or no facts … doesn’t make me ignorant, doesn’t make me incoherent doesn’t make me evil.


  48. @ GEORGIE PORGIE
    “However, the Bible predicts in several places that the Lord Jesus himself will return and single handedly win the Battle of Armageddon, and destroy utterly the enemies of Israel…”

    Could you provide Biblical references to support this orthodox position?

    As many as you can find from Old & New Testament theology…

    Cheers!!!!

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