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The Bible And The Qur'an, Brothers Kept Apart

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brotherskeptapartFellow blogger Weighed in the Balance has undertaken the ambitious and highly risky task of writing a book which as he terms it “is a comparative analysis of the Bible and the Qur’an, and it assumes that both books are correct.  If God is the principal author of each book, as Christians and Muslims claim, then a comparative analysis should reveal harmony between the principal teachings of both.  This is what I have found.  Hence, Christians and Muslims have been kept apart by their religious leaders who have taught their adherents that God has rejected the other group.” The topic matter was thought to be so contentious that he originally penned his book using a pseudonym.

Phillip’s book is titled Brothers Kept Apart and can be purchased on Amazon.com at a reasonable price. Some members of the BU family have already demonstrated that they are students of the religions. Brother Phillips advises that the book represents 30 years of research and 7 years of critical review and he stands ready to defend his thesis.

It is no secret that the BU household has demonstrated a keen interest in the religions or what some people disparagingly refer to as dogmas. It is a fascinating subject and one which is shrouded in mystery, allegories, parables, fables and some theology  Religion has been used through the ages to edify and destroy man’s existence. Of interest to all through the ages has been the cooption of  religion to pit Islam versus Christianity, East versus West by geo-political motivated groups.

For a synopsis of the book the BU family is welcomed to visit Phillips’s blog. We look forward to a fascinating discussion and take the opportunity to wish him every success.

What he has attempted demonstrates courage of conviction, a characteristic in scarce supply.

.

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1,124 responses to “The Bible And The Qur'an, Brothers Kept Apart”

  1. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    BAFBFP

    “Now we see a sinister fundamental reason for the framing of the Muslim face in this so called “War on Terror”. My God what propaganda..!”

    You thought that the beneficiaries of christianity would have rolled over and play dead? This is a threat to shift the destination of the wealth away from them.

  2. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP

    “Currently, there is much annimosity against Israel in the world and at the UN. However, their immediate enemies do not yet seem capable of obliterating them as they seek to do.”

    Warped thinking. Not that Israel is any enemy to anybody, it is that Israel is seeing everybody as its enemy and belligerently so.

  3. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @Georgie Porgie // May 2, 2009 at 11:42 am

    “NS

    “I thought that separation of Church & State begun in 313 Ad with Constantine, who was definitely not a believer, but a politician.”

    Well! Well! Well! GP, now I know how warped your thinking is. The Council of Nicea was about the marriage between the Church and the State. That is why Constantine did not allow them to leave Nicea without the creed and its annexes. Everybody had to say, “I do”.

    I now have to wonder what else you were so wrong about as to be at the opposite end of the spectrum… but I am not going to go back through your posts just for that; one is enough. Sir, you are the worst on religion. You should stick to medicine.

  4. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP

    “All hell will brek loose now…”

    @David

    I hope that from the above all would realise who are the real war mongers. It’s always on their mind. They will do anything to defeat their opponents.

    Yes GP, all hell has already broken loose as BAFBFP pointed out, the war is against the Muslims; first labelling them as terrorists… but the Muslims were smart, they used your own methods against you and nipped the profiling of Muslims at the bud; other wise Muslims would be under open persecution now.

    Next thing, your God or Christ is here already and by 2012, his plan to drastically reduce earth’s large population will be done.

    As to Swine flu, it is one in a series of planned drastic steps to drain the world’s wealth in a short time. The budget for the execution of 2012 is large and they must collect it. The prophesies must be fulfilled.

  5. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Now now ROK

    Pull back man. He from Kolij tek it easy.

  6. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Technician

    I don’t mean to be slick at all. Those of us that take the Bible seriously find that prophesy becomes very clear when it is fulfilled. For example, we can plainly appreciate the fulfilled prophesies that pertain to the first advent of Christ. We can clearly see that most of the facets of Daniel’s interpretation of Nebuchadnezzer’s vision with respect to Babylon, the Medes and Persians, the Greeks and the Romans have come to pass.

    We now anticipate that possibly the Euro nations refer to the ten toes of this vision, although the exact nations involved is not clear. Since the Europeans previously were very sympathetic to Israel (probably because of their once strong Judeo-Christian background) the involvement of the West seemed to be unlikely. Perhaps an influx of Muslims or anti-Semetics in these nations such that this ethnic group assumes greater or ultimate political significance answers the question that students interested in this aspect of Eschatology have been asking.

    The issue here is not terrorism or anything of the sort. The scriptures clearly stares that there will be a military campaign culminating in Armageddon, and clearly points out the direction from whence the participants will advance on Israel. Only an ignorance or total rejection of the Word of God will posit otherwise.

    Your question as to if the Israel in the Bible is the same as the contemporary one in the Middle East is not at all silly. The answer is YES.

    Recall from Deuteronomy that the prophet Moses predicted that there would be two dispersals of the people of Israel from the land that God promised them in Genesis 15 as part of the terms of the Abrahamic Covenant. We know from Joshua that Israel never fully occupied all the land promised them in Genesis 15. We know too that Israel was displaced to Assyria and also to Babylon, before a remnant estimated to be about 20% of post exhilic Jews, returned to the land under Ezra, Zerrubbabel and Nehemiah. We know too that these Jews were displaced again as predicted by Moses by the Romans under Titus in AD 70 as a fulfillment also of Hosea 3:4, which states….
    For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:

    We know too, that there are several prophecies in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Obadiah and even Hosea 3:5 which predicts a miraculous return to the land. viz
    Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

    You will recall that even Jesus referred to this return to the land in his most important prophesy in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24. He called it the budding of the fig tree. Believers accept that this occurred in May 1948.

    Hope this answers your question.

  7. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    BAFBFP

    You getting soft in your old age or what? The boys that used to break cane for lunch used to devastate them.

  8. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Please note that when I said that All hell will brek loose now, I was referring to the BU fraternity responding to my post. I have merely expressed my opinion on contemporary events as it relates to the prophetic scriptures.

    I expect that there will continue to be wars and rumors of wars, and that this will escalate as set out in the Olivet discourse; just as we are observing in recent times. I myself dont plan to start any wars, here or anywhere else.

  9. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    BAFBFP
    Re Well the shoe is now on the other foot. Wonder what the Aboriginal population of the world would think of this video? Now we see a sinister fundamental reason for the framing of the Muslim face in this so called “War on Terror”. My God what propaganda..!
    ================
    This need not be propaganda at all, but mere statistics. We know that in some countries, females are killed, and that there is a restriction on the numbers of children allowed per family, BY LAW!

    We know also that the use of “birth control” and abortions are rampant in the so called developed world as families grapple with thieir economic situations, and as women see child bearing an uneccesary impediment to thier social and economic development etc

    Long gone are the days when families had several children to help on the farm or whatever.

    Is it too hard to see that perhaps the Muslims see things differently ……….whatever thier agenda or purpose or motives are.

  10. David Avatar
    David

    The BU household is interested very much so in how religion, the Church and public policy needs to relate for the optimal benefit of the PEOPLE. While we accept that Barbados is not a Theocracy it is a country built on values firmly rooted in Christianity (religion), MME can support us on this know?

    The pragmatists that we are we continue to be haunted by the question, how can we in a country (Barbados) which is becoming more and more pluralistic exist for the good of all? As always we try to relate the debates to how we can improve our environment.

  11. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Man the Catholics that I know don’t “believe” in the use of birth control. Why not complain ’bout them too GP? Facts are facts it is how they are presented that I find worrisome. In any event GP, I do not see this as a call to Christians in the world, no siree. This is a call for White people to act. Earth to Hopi come in please, Earth to Pat …!

    Man ROK

    I get hol’ by Reece so I ain’ part ah dat campaign na more… lol

  12. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    BAFBFP
    Man the Catholics that I know don’t “believe” in the use of birth control. Why not complain ’bout them too GP?

    Man I aint complaining bout nuh body. I just telling ya as it is. But ya right bout the Catholics. I have heard stories coming out of Ireland of women having 8 Caesarean sections yuh!

    Re Facts are facts it is how they are presented that I find worrisome.

    Man look at the figures as statistics first. Then ask if they are reliable. Then wonder the likely consequences. I gave you my eschatological view based on my study of this doctrine. Tek it or lef it man. Ya tink you in de Kensingtom stand in the 60’s at inter school sports in a Lodge/Kolij war man? By the way, Christians will only be spectators in the battle of Armageddon.

    Why you calling Hopi in fuh she to get lick up by Zoe fuh nuh man. Left the girls alone.

  13. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP

    “This need not be propaganda at all, but mere statistics…”

    Man GP, you getting less credible by the minute.

  14. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    BAFBFP

    u have to get hol’ three times not to be part of the campaign; it is not the trinity but the trilogy.

  15. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Murder wanna killin’ mah..! HA ha ha

  16. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Barracuda wrote:
    Ah, Rohan, chapter and verse please! Where does the Bible say that the earth is 6000 years old? Which chapter, which verse? Thought so! It DOESN’T! NOWHERE!

    “We know it to be BILLIONS of years old.” WE do, do WE? How do WE know that? Fossil records? Carbon dating? Empirical science? Or maybe you’re just a parrot, repeating a theory you heard from someone else?

    The Athenians had a word for someone like you. A “babbler.”

    ****
    Barracuda, this type of ignorance does not even warrant a response.

  17. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    GP, as usual, continues to relate the prophetic Word of God to the realities that have, and are continuing to unfold throughout the world, this is ‘coherence’ which establishes the ‘Truth’ of the propositional proclamation of the Bible.

    Of course, there will always be those scoffers, just like those in first century Christianity, and since, who mocked and derided the Word of God.

    “And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of TRUTH will be BLASPHEMED. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words, for a long time their JUDGMENT has been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.” (2 Peter 2:2,3).

    Doom of False Teachers.

    “For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and who did NOT spare the ANCIENT world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an EXAMPLE to those who would afterward live ungodly; and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppresed by the filthy conduct of the wicked…then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment.” ( 2 Peter 2:4-7, 9).

    Depravity of False Teachers.

    “But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, SPEAK EVIL of the things they DO NOT UNDERSTAND, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime…they have forsaken the RIGHT WAY and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness. But he was rebuked for his iniquity; a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds carried by a temptest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.” (2 Peter 2: 12-17).

    Deception of False Teachers.

    “For when they speak great swelling words of EMPTINESS, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the one who have actually escaped from those who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are SLAVES of corruption, for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.” ( 2 Peter 2: 18,19).

    The judgment in verse 4, is that of the Last Days, the season, era, we are now living in. The fact of a Last-Day setting for the warning against false teachers (see 2: 1-3) is strenghtened in light of Luke 17: 26-29, where Noah and the flood, and the deliverance of Lot out of Sodom and Gomorrah, are models of End-Time deliverance and judgment.

    The rescue of Noah and Lot demonstrates the fact that God will preserve committed believers in the midst of evil circumstances, while destruction of evildoers demonstrates His punishment, to be pronounced in finality in the day of judgment.

    Naturally, many on BU will laugh, mock, and scoff at God’s Word, and those of us who are trying to warn you about what is coming soon, but we are also comforted by Him who saved us:

    “If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part (the scoffers) He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified.” ( I Peter 4: 14).

  18. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    @ David
    The BU household is interested very much so in how religion, the Church and public policy needs to relate for the optimal benefit of the PEOPLE. While we accept that Barbados is not a Theocracy it is a country built on values firmly rooted in Christianity (religion), MME can support us on this know?
    The pragmatists that we are we continue to be haunted by the question, how can we in a country (Barbados) which is becoming more and more pluralistic exist for the good of all? As always we try to relate the debates to how we can improve our environment.

    To be blunt David, we would have to return in some ways to what worked in the past. But this is very difficult. All around us people are becoming more selfish as described in 2 Timothy 3: 3-7. In our youth, our exposure at school, church and the home instilled in us values that did our nation well. We have departed from these principles, just as peoples in other parts of the world have done.

    @ Rohan
    Since Barracuda’s post is the type of ignorance that does not even warrant a response, why respond? It is, however, true that nowhere in the Bible does it say that the earth is 6000 years old; though I have heard some teachers say so. I have often wondered what is the basis of the age often cited for the age of the world.

    Now you and NS often interject with posts very much like what Barracuda has done, that are probably as irritating to others as Barracuda’s post is to you. You are an ex-Harrisonian, man. Come on man, show the Lodge boys on this forum how to behave man. LOL.
    (BAFBFP dah fuh lick yuh man!)

    @ Zoe
    As usual, sound doctrine that can not be condemned (Titus 2:8)

  19. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    BTW, this evolutionary nonsense of earth being billions of years old, cannot stand the test of the real facts of physics and cosmogony, the straightforward Biblical record of cosmic creation can be accepted in its most natural and litersal sense, in full confidence that that all the speculations of evolutionary cosmogony are unproved and unprovable. The real facts of physics and astronomy are all perfectly consistent with the Biblical revelation of special, recent, fiat, complete creation of the Universe, as stated by Almighty God, in Genesis.

  20. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    @ Zoe and GP

    By your Christian account…..how old is the earth?

  21. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    @ David, while I do appreciate your concern for our society, as GP said, we would have to revert to our past traditional ways of thinking and living, the essential Christian way.

    BUT, this is simply not possible, as God’s Word tells us, things will continue to get worst and worst, exactly as the Bible warns it will happen, no nation is exempt from this literal unfolding of the End-Times.

    David, no pragmatic approach can solve this utter mess we are in, sorry, NO political, philosophical, economic, or other man-made concoctions are going to work either; the ONLY answer for the individual, family, parish, and the Nation, is sincere REPENTENCE for all of our arrogant, humanistic, materialistic idolatry, for Almighty God in the face of Jesus Christ, IS the ONLY answer; for we are looking to, and in the wrong places for our survival; so is America and the rest of mankind, CANNOT work!

    BTW, I’m not in anyway shouting at you when I use bold print, its just for emphasis!

  22. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Technician
    I dont know, and I honestly dont care. The age of the earth does not affect my salvation, now or in the future.

    I view arguements about the age of the earth within Paul’s admonitions in 1 Tim. 1:4 which states……

    Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

    I try to keep the main thing in focus.I try to keep the main thing , the main thing.

  23. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Zoe
    I like your outline of false teachers in 2 Peter 2. Starting with my outlines below I wrote a treatise on this subject from 2 Peter 2 and merged it with Jude, but lost this beautiful work in a computer crash three years ago.

    Here goes….hope you like it and can use these outlines

    SOME TRUTHS ABOUT FALSE TEACHERS ( 2 Peter 2: 1-3)
    Verse I- FalseTeachers are deceitful, secretive and subtle (“privily”)
    False teachers teach damnable heresies (similar but not the same)
    False Teachers deny the Lord that bought them
    False Teachers will be destroyed surely and swiftly
    Verse 2- False Teachers will be successful (many)
    False Teachers are seductive (follow)
    False Teachers are sinful (pernicious)
    False Teachers are swerving (their ways are erroneous and erratic)
    False Teachers are slanderous (way of truth evil spoken of).
    Verse3- False Teachers are motivated by covetousness
    False Teachers make merchandise of unlearned believers with feigned words.
    False Teachers’ meeting with God; their sentence or Judgement is sure and swift.
    False Teachers are self destructing

    CHARACTERISTICS OF FALSE TEACHERS IN JUDE

    V.4 False teachers are SUBTLE (crept in unawares)
    SINFUL
    DERANGE the grace of our God
    DENY the Lord that bought them
    V.8 False teachers are DREAMERS
    DEFILE THE FLESH
    DESPISE DOMINION
    DISRESPECT DIGNITARIES
    v.10 False teachers do not COMPREHEND, but are CORRUPT
    v.11 False teachers are DENOUNCED BY GOD, because God denounces religion that
    REJECTS the blood of Christ
    REVILES the law of Christ
    REBELS against the authority of Christ

    v.12 False teachers MAKE SHIPWRECK OF FAITH ( spots in your feast of charity)
    MAKE THE SHEEP STARVE (selfishly feeding themselves)
    MAKE THE SHEEP FRUSTRATED (clouds without water)

    ARE UNSTABLE (carried about by winds)
    BARE NO FRUIT
    ARE DEAD SPIRITUALLY (twice dead)
    v.13 False teachers are ENTIRELY SHAMELESS (that’s BAD)
    are ESSENTIALLY AIMLESS wandering stars ( that’s SAD)
    are ETERNALLY CHRISTLESS ( that’s MAD)
    v.18 False teachers are SCOFFERS [mockers] c.f 2 Peter 3:
    SATISFY their own passionate desires
    v.19False teachers are SCHISMATIC –they cause division by separating themselves, they are
    SENSUAL
    SPIRITLESS -they don’t have the Holy Spirit

  24. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    @ MME
    I was thinking a while a go about our brief conversation about your rambling in Revelations, if you please.
    Recall I posited that I see Revelation as a big river into which the tributaries of prophetic scriptures flow.

    My approach that has worked for me is basically to read the prophetic scriptures, and make two determinations. Either the prophesy has already been fulfilled or it is yet to be fulfilled.

    If it has not been yet fulfilled, I try to see where it fits into DeHaan’s 10 point classification.

    e.g Book of Jonah; this is not a prophesy per se, but a story about a prophet. Its relation to the end times relates principally to what Jesus said about it in Matthew 12, where Jesus contrasts the response of the hearers of God’s word by the Ninevites to the hearers of God’s word at His return.

    Obadiah: vs 15 the day of the Lord is mentioned; a big topic in prophesy.

    it seems the first half follows the law of double mention, and the second half refers to the regathering of Israel after Armageddon.

  25. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Rohan
    While you honing on rape and pillage, I am excited by JESUS’ PROMISE TO BE BACK – John14:1-3

    Jesus promised that he would come back for the believer He always keeps His promises. Here is his promise…..for those who are looking for him (Hebrews 9:28).
    I………………………………. the PERSON
    I WILL…………………………….. the POWER
    I will COME……………………… the PROMISE
    I will come AGAIN……………… the PROSPECT
    And receive YOU unto myself……. the PEOPLE
    That WHERE I AM………….. the PLACE
    There you MAY BE ALSO…………the PURPOSE

    AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.[ 1 Thes 4:17], because God intends to be with His people.
    The cry of our hearts must therefore be …… Even so come Lord Jesus.

  26. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    In answer to the question, …how old is the earth?”

    This is not to be answered by some Christian belief, yes, that is also important, BUT, it is based on solid scientific principles, that are consistent with the Biblical account of creation; I’ll just give a brief look at why this is so.

    The clear Biblical testimony of special, fiat, completed and conserved creation of the cosmos is, of course, explicitly supported by the TWO great laws of thermodynamics, the most secure generalization about the universe that exist in science. NO exception to either of them has ever been found.

    The first law of thermodynamics, the law of conservation, and the second, also known as Time’s Arrow, is the universal law of ‘deterioation’.

    Both these laws, individually and jointly, clearly contradict the ‘evolutionist’ cosmogony.

    Evolutionism purports to describe a cosmos in which all things come into existence and build themselves up into higher, more complex levels of existence, by purely natural processes in a universe that is self-contained and self-suffcient. That is, evolution is a universal principle of ‘innovation and integration’, functioning in a close-system universe. The laws of thermodynamics, on the other hand, describe a universe principle of ‘conservation and disintegration’ functioning in a universe that must, at least in its beginning, have been an open-system universe, created and energized by a Creator/Energizer transcendent to it. That is, the two universal laws of science yield exactly the same conclusion stated in Genesia 1:1: ‘In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth.”
    (The Biblical Basis for Modern Science).

    More on this later!

  27. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Rohan
    While you are seeing all the attrocities in the Pentateuch, I have been meditating on the following issues in Philippians

    Paul’s & The Christians desire in Philippians
    To know Christ (3:10)
    To win Christ (3:8)
    Conformed to Christ (3:10)
    Magnify Christ (1:20)
    Found in Christ (3:9)
    Rejoice in Christ (2:16)
    To be with Christ (1:23)

    3 positions of the believer in Philippians 3

    Found in Christ (v.9)- His place
    Fellowship with Christ (v.10)- His privilege
    Fashioned like Christ (v.21)- His prospect

    THE WORK OF CHRIST IN PHILIPPIANS (The perfect work of a perfect Savior.)
    Commencement- he hath begun a good work in you Phil 1:6
    Continuation – it is God which worketh in you Phil 2:13
    Completion – who shall change our vile body etc Phil 3 21

    Christ is all as seen in Phiippians
    Cross of Christ (3 :18)
    Work of Christ (2:30)
    Gospel of Christ (1:27)
    Faith of Christ (3: 9)
    Day of Christ (1:10)

    4 R’s in Philippians 4: 3-9
    Registered v 3
    Rejoicing v 4
    Restful v 7
    Rewarded v 9

  28. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    GP, your outline of false teachers from 2 Peter 2, is great, dead ON!

  29. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Rohan while you were distilling your view of the God of the Bible, I was seeking to unravel the facinating truths of Romans.

    Here are some notes I found from about 10 years ago from a Homiletics assignment. They might not resonate with you at all, but ………so what? It excited me.
    Here goes

    Many run from the book of Romans and say that it is difficult to study. However, we can see that if we would spend the time to study several outlines and introductions of this very important doctrinal book of the Bible, that we can set up some pillars or a strong foundation for further study and appreciation of the book. Today, as we tried to give a few thoughts on chapters 6-8, we developed gradually the structure of the book as well as the logical progression of Paul’s arguments in Romans, as he deals with man as Sinner and then Saint.

    We first laid down our ground rule for the right division of the Word of Truth. Again, we stress never let us forget–. A text must always be discussed in its context. For there is no other way in which we can rightly divide the Word of Truth. In setting chapters 6-8 in their context we noted that The Epistle to the Romans is a progressively constructed treatise, arranged in three main parts, which follows a brief introduction. We discovered that the first eight chapters are throughout doctrinal, expounding the basic doctrines of the Gospel. There is no doubt as to the subject matter in Part I (chapters 1-8). The key words in this section seem to be …….THE GOSPEL – POWER OF GOD – SALVATION – EVERYONE – BELIEVETH – RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    The next three chapters (9-11) are national, in the sense that they answer questions as to the relationship of the Gospel to Israel. Here, Paul has passed from his general application of the Gospel to a particular consideration of its relation to the nation Israel.

    The remaining chapters (12-16) are practical, inasmuch as they apply the doctrines of the Gospel to individual conduct. We noticed that there are three main movements of Romans. In the first we have exposition; in the second, explanation; in the third, application. The first part is racial; the second, national or Israelite; the third, individual. The first part deals with the sin-problem; the second, with the Jew-problem; the third, with the life-problem.

    We pointed that our topic MAN THE SINNER & SAINT centered around is discussed by Paul in chapters 6-8 means that we are in part one of this great exciting letter we are in the DOCTRINAL Or FAITH section, CHAPTERS 1-8, which deals with how the Gospel saves the sinner and makes him into a saint. This section certainly deals with man as Saint and Sinner. In the eight chapters of this section Paul explains how a man can advance from being a hopeless sinner to a happy saint.

    We taught that the three opening chapter of The Epistle to the Romans develops the concept of MAN THE SINNER, as Paul Romans teaches the total depravity of man, and that man is irrevocably and hopelessly lost and must have the righteousness of God since he has none of his own.

    We agreed that Paul shows why, and how MAN THE SINNER, was justified, in Chapters 1:1 – 5:11, and that in Chapters5:12 – 8:39 , Paul reveals God’s plan to make MAN THE SINNER, A SAINT in the process of practical sanctification.

    We then pointed out in chapter 1 that Paul showed that the gentiles sinned .He showed that the gentiles demonstrated that they were MAN THE SINNER despite the Natural Revelation of God in creation Chapters 1: 18-32, and that they did this by
    Sub-natural Response of Man (Revision), Verses 21-23
    Un-natural Retrogression of Man (Perversion), Verses 24-27
    Super-natural Requittal of God (Inversion), Verses 28-32

    We discussed too, how in Romans Chapter two, Paul reveals that the Jews showed that they were MAN THE SINNER by
    Revelation of the Sin of Good People, Chapter 2:1-16
    Revelation of the Sin of Israel Under Law, Chapters 2:17 – 3:8
    In other words respectable people need righteousness as well. Consequently, Paul comes to the reasonable conclusion in Romans 3:23 that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

    This is seen in the.Revelation of the Universality of Sin, Chapter 3:9-20

    Paul then points out
    1.God’s Verdict of Guilt against mankind, Verses 9-12- Man cannot remove this guilt.
    2.Great Physician’s Diagnosis of Mankind, Verses 13-18 -Man cannot change his nature. He has incurable disease
    3.Purpose of the Law, Verses 19-20- Law reveals sin, not salvation.

    Paul then sets out to show in Chapters 3:21 – 5:11 how God would by justification- also called positional sanctification, change men from condemned SINNERS to SAINTS who are no longer under condemnation (Romans 8:1), but set up a way to convert them to be SAINTS WHO WOULD EVENTUALLY BECOME PERFCETLY HOLY. Thus it is that Romans 1-8 teaches the concept of MAN SINNER & SAINT.

    To accomplish this feat, Paul shows what God has done to solve the sin problem by providing His Perfect Righteous for man in and through Christ and by defining the righteousness of God in Romans 3:24.

    Paul also explains Justification by Faith Chapters 3:21-31, as the act of God that declares a sinner righteous by faith on the merit of Christ’s sacrifice. It is the addition of the righteousness of Christ as well as the subtraction of sins).

    Paul reminds us that the verdict on all counts for all sinners regardless to their level of sophistication is GUILTY (3:9,19), and that the sentence delivered in chapter 6:23 as physical and spiritual death. Chapter 3:25-26 reveals that Justification through the righteousness of Christ is the only solution.

    Paul then goes on in Chapter 4:1-25 to further explain what Justification by Faith is really all about. And he gave illustrations to demonstrate how both Abraham and David exhibited faith in God and thus became justified. He explains that Abraham was justified apart from circumcision before the era of the Mosaic law, and that David was justified apart from the law, even though he lived in the dispensation of the law. Paul is thus negating the two major appeals the religious Jews were making in contradistinction to the principle that justification is through the righteousness of Christ only.

    In Chapter 5:1-11 Paul describes seven benefits or results bestowed upon MAN THE SINNER when he is justified by faith and thus changed into MAN THE SAINT.
    1.Peace – verses 1
    2.Access – verse 2
    3.Hope – verse 2
    4.Patience-Fruit of Tribulation – verse 3
    5.Love – verse 5
    6.Deliverance from Great Tribulation – verse 9
    7.Joy – verse 11
    We see in this chapter too, that Justification by faith is an act of God which is permanent and that God changes the relationship between Himself and man from enmity to friendship. It must be stressed that God alone does the reconciliation.

    In the next three chapters 6-8, Paul expands and goes into greater detail as to how a sinner becomes a saint. We saw in Chapters 6:1-10, that Paul speaks of our Positional Sanctification, and teaches that UNION with Christ in His death and resurrection is the basis of our deliverance from sin.

    In Chapter, 6:11-23 Paul teaches about our Practical Sanctification, and proves that OBEDIENCE to God leads to the experience of deliverance from sin.

    One of the major truths taught in chapter six is found in verses 6:12-14 where Paul gives a few instructions to SINNERS WHO HAVE BECOME SAINTS . He tells us that
    • Sin is not to reign in our bodies during the rest of our mortal lives, nor are we to be in obedience to it’s lusts.
    • We are not to yield our members as instruments of sin or wickedness, but rather
    • Yield our selves to God as would be expected of those who are truly arisen and now alive from the dead as discussed in verses 4, 5, 9, 10 and 11 above.
    • We are not to yield our members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
    • We are to ensure that sin does not have dominion over us.

    The concept to grasp here is that we can either set our minds on the flesh or on the Spirit, we can chose to yield our members as instruments of sin or wickedness or we can chose to yield our members as instruments of righteousness unto God. We can chose to allow sin and self to have dominion over us. Paul advises to make the correct choice and allow God (in the person of the blessed Holy Spirit) to dominate our lives. Paul teaches that we are to give up our own way, and let the Spirit of the Lord take over completely.

    In 6:15-19 Paul uses the image of a slave who has been transferred from an evil master to teach us that God our new master longs to see us grow into perfection. Then he reminds us in 6:20-23 that when we lived in the flesh we had no allegiance to the Spirit; we were free from the principles of righteousness (20). He then stresses by way of a rhetorical question that we never got any benefit whatever from that previous master, since the only thing that a life devoted to sin has to really offer is spiritual death. He goes on in verse 23 to state explicitly that the wages or reward or benefits for sin is spiritual death, before advising us to become sincere devoted servants of God, produce fruit unto holiness that exhibits the newness of life empowered by the Spirit through faith in Christ as described in verse 4, and benefit from everlasting life at the end, which is the result of genuinely living for God. (6:22, 23; as in 5:21).

    In Romans 7:1-13, Paul discusses the law, as a background to a more detailed study of the life lived in the power of the Spirit . In the first six verses in Romans 7, he present the first of three confrontations in this chapter between man and the Law. Here we see the relationship of the SPIRITUAL MAN and the Law . and the relationship of the of the SPIRITUAL MAN and the Savior. We note in these six verses that the SPIRITUAL MAN IS DELIVERED FROM THE LAW.
    In Romans 7:7-13, he discusses the confrontation between the NATURAL MAN and the LAW. We see the law and God and the law and sin. We see that the NATURAL MAN is DOOMED BY THE LAW!

    Finally, in Romans 7:14-25 we see the CARNAL MAN and the LAW. We see that any attempt to keep the law will lead to carnality, and that no attempt to keep the law can lead to spirituality. Paul makes it very clear in these seven verses that THE CARNAL MAN IS DEFEATED BY THE LAW. because one cant keep the law unless they have the indwelling Spirit.

    We turn now briefly to Romans 8, one of the best loved passages in the Bible, where we saw that
    The believer now has A NEW POSITION. (1-8)
    The believer now has A NEW GUEST (9-13)
    The believer now has A NEW ADOPTION (14-17)

    The believer now has A NEW HOPE (18-25)

    The believer now has A NEW PRAYER HELPER (26-27)

    The believer now has A NEW GOAL (29-39)
    Not only do we have no condemnation, we now have also the assurance and the prospect of no separation from God.

  30. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP

    “I dont know, and I honestly dont care. The age of the earth does not affect my salvation, now or in the future.”

    For a scientist to say this, it is quite evident that you have a hidden agenda. Rather than correct your colleague at arms, you allow him to babble away nonesense and then try to justify it.

    Well Zoe, take it from me, you do not have a friend in GP at all. He knows better but would prefer to support ignorance to try to prove a silly point that has no merit in today’s enlightenment.

    I only have this to say, the fossils of the dinosaurs attests to their presence on earth. At what point in time during the last 6000 years were dinosaurs on earth? Furthermore, if dinosaurs were a fact, why is there no mention of them in the bible?

  31. Straight talk Avatar
    Straight talk

    How come, if your “god” sent his only begotten son to save the tribe of Israel, after 30+years of miraculous deeds he only ends up with 12 disciples and a rag bag of hangers on.

    Even Rihanna outperforms this meagre performance.

    At least her target audience don’t vote for crucifixion.

    Forgive them father, I’ve garbled the message and they want to kill me, what now?

    Some God, some message.

    MME;

    So you are wiser than Plato! Amazing.

    His Divine ( probably Zeus ) was selected from a multiplicity of Gods around at that time, including the God of the Jews.

    He rejected your God, as you reject his.

    Your agnosticism towards his choice must be equally valid for anyone questioning your pick off the top shelf.

  32. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Knowing the age of the earth was not necessary for me to be competent as a physician, or teaching medical students, or the Bible.

    It didnt stop me from enjoying cricket or Bible readings. I am a simple despicable fella. Went to school, to church, then to UWI, to work to the beach and cricket. I focuused on a few things I like and am interested in

    I remember well Bro Winston J Massiah in the 70’s on Rediffusion on Sunday afternoon saying I SPEAK WHERE THE BIBLE SPEAKS AND I AM SILENT WHERE THE BIBLE IS SILENT. I agreed with him then, and still do now. It keeps things simple for me.

    I not too interested in dinosaurs either, for the reason above. I believe the Bible is silent on dinosaurs. I certainly have never took the time to study about them. They dont excite me. Said that on BFP last year and was scoffed at by the same Not Saved (I think, with a different name) Rohan and others.

  33. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    The bible is the most inert piece of literature anybody could ever read, like Treasure Island. Yet a supposedly highly intelligent man is willing to put aside his scientific knowledge in favour of a fairy tale.

    Does it matter? The battle has already been lost. Very tragic. I want Christians to know that they have perpetrated an unforgivable error on the human race and that when the time comes, it will rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. Forget that you serve your God, that will be immaterial when your God carries out his plan.

    Next thing, in the same way you were the chosen people then, another set that looks more promising could be come the chosen people and armageddon may very well be the massacre of the Christians in favour of the Muslims and the giving of the bible to the Muslims as a great transformation takes place. Maybe a completely different and harmonised bible though.

  34. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP, Zoe

    What happen, your bellies hurting? You need to take something for the diarhhea.

  35. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    “I SPEAK WHERE THE BIBLE SPEAKS AND I AM SILENT WHERE THE BIBLE IS SILENT”

    what a cop-out? very self righteous!

  36. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP

    “Knowing the age of the earth was not necessary for me to be competent as a physician…”

    Good argument. Very competent indeed.

  37. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Straight Talk

    If Christ was real, I would call him the best politician that ever walked the earth. Think about it carefully, who else do you know could have campaigned like him, during and after life that has been able to capture the imaginations of so many sheep?

    If Christ had to appear tomorrow, he would win every election in nearly every country from the North to the South pole. His only resistance would be the Asians and Muslims.

    His manifesto has survived thousands of years and he set up a self generating campaign among his sheep. He is therefore the absentee landlord of world Government. Obviously more powerful than anything on earth and powerful enough to disarm all earth governments…

    but we are powerful enough to annihilate all the animals and insects on earth, but I think we know better; so does your god and while he will not make man extinct, he will definitely plunge him in darkness again. Only way to control it.

  38. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    I dun fah now. Tah much info

  39. victor Avatar
    victor

    Yes,rok, as you know, I am in totaI agreement with you but WHO inspired the Beautitudes? Somewhere out there are words of wisdom which heIp us to Iive our Iives. It might be the DaIai Iama or the phiIosophy of the Sioux tribes. I have found great inspiration from aII of these.

  40. Straight talk Avatar
    Straight talk

    ROK:

    Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

    I really struggle, but persist, in organising my life around Christian beliefs,

    I do so because if universally accepted everything would be sooo coool.

    Unfortunately reality invades my la-la land every single day.

    Do I Condemn these disturbers to the lake of fire, or merely give them a strong sod-off.

    Not christian, I admit, more like Jahweh, but how come the son comes with such a different message than his dad has been promulgating since the dawn of time?

    Kill ’em or love ’em.

    Are we supposed to follow the omniscient father or the immaculate son.

    A house divided against itself cannot stand.

  41. Grenville Avatar
    Grenville

    Hi David:

    That was an informative video. The statistics quoted should be relatively easy to verify. If you have not already done so, I can make the attempt.

    Regards,
    Grenville

  42. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    @BAFBFP………Didn’t mean to return to this thread. Too much mental masturbation and pseudo-sophism going on for me.

    Anyhow, please know that those that are called ABORIGINAL people on this planet are in fact the ORIGINAL people, the first people. That word is a white man’s construct and I’d say that he is the only aboriginal here. Check the word itself…the prefix ab – means away from and the word abhor means to hate. That’s like calling Black and Brown people minorities. Bullocks!

    Catholics don’t believe in the use of birth control but they practise it and its called cold hard Warfare with weapons of mass destruction. In this way you take out millions more.

    That video is intended to make everyone islamaphobic but those who put it out there wouldn’t tell you that they are the ones behind the world sabotage that we’re facing today. The ones behind this “terrorism” scam. Look at a few of these name… Greenspan, Bernanke,Gates, Rothschilds, Rockefellers….They will always come across as philanthropists or as working in the best interest of the people. Pure hogwash! These are some of the master manipulators working for the puppet master.

    BTW, the Black man is the only man who has the ability /’balls’ to screw every other man off this planet with the help of his Black woman. That’s why there’s a master plan to continually subjugate and decimate the Black man.
    Oh I didn’t mean to go there. pls forgive me!

    @ROK…..Keep up the good fight brother!

  43. David Avatar
    David

    @Grenville

    Feel free to verify, appreciate it.

  44. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @GP… “The silly story of the evolution of the length of the giraffes neck presented in an early post ( and around since the late 60’s) has long been debunked.

    Really. Please provide the references.

    @GP: “In the scenario presented, nearly all of the other herbivorous animals would most certainly have beeen [sic] eliminated by the time that giraffes were surviving only because of their lengthy necks.

    Um, no… An advantage because of evolution does not ensure that all other competitors will be eliminated. It *might* give them advantage in the (then) current situation. But the situation might change…

    It’s a numbers game…

    @GP: “In addition since female giraffes are considerably shorter than male giraffes, there would be NO female giraffes around to bare future generations to continue the species. Apparently there is a need to have female giraffes around to bare future generations to continue the species.

    *EXACTLY*. Therefore, while the males are able to consume foliage (from trees (which are themselves a fouling of the “commons”)) well above the females, and have the ability to consume below, they choose not to because they need the females.

    Really, GP, I find this debate a bit like autogratification.

    But without the euphoria…

  45. Evolution? Avatar
    Evolution?

    How can any one with a brain actually believe in the therory of Evolution?
    Doesn’t the message from the Bible make more sense?
    Eddie

  46. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    “How can any one with a brain actually believe in the therory of Evolution?”

    ———–

    maybe by using it

    just a thought

  47. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    Just for reference…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giraffe

    “The evolution of the long necks of giraffes has been the subject of much debate…

    “This theory notes that giraffes frequently feed from relatively low-lying shrubs, and that the necks of males are significantly longer than those of females.[9]

    “However, this theory is not universally accepted, and some of the data supporting it has recently been challenged, lending support to the original proposal that neck length is related to browsing habits.[10]

    9. ^ Simmons, R. E. & Scheepers, L. (1996). “Winning by a Neck: Sexual Selection in the Evolution of Giraffe”. The American Naturalist 148 (5): 771–786. http://bill.srnr.arizona.edu/classes/182/Giraffe/WinningByANeck.pdf.

    10. ^ Cameron, E. Z. & du Toit, J. T. (2007). “Winning by a Neck: Tall Giraffes Avoid Competing with Shorter Browsers”. American Naturalist 169 (1): 130–135. doi:10.1086/509940.

  48. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    NS
    Eddie just put that ball in the slot for you to nudge it through the covers in your particular style.

    You are the master of retort and reparti! LOl

    I off course agree with him though. LOL

  49. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Why thank you, Georgie.

  50. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    It is, however, true that nowhere in the Bible does it say that the earth is 6000 years old; though I have heard some teachers say so. I have often wondered what is the basis of the age often cited for the age of the world.
    ********
    So Georgie, if you’ve often wondered what the basis often cited for the bible’s account of the age of the world, then why did you not look it up?

    That’s what someone who is curious would do. It amazes me how little christians know about the bible.

    Didn’t you just ask “show me where God instructs people to rape women”.

    Anyhow thought I would help you. Here’s what to do next time you have a pressing question

    http://tinyurl.com/dyv8dl

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