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The Bible And The Qur'an, Brothers Kept Apart

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brotherskeptapartFellow blogger Weighed in the Balance has undertaken the ambitious and highly risky task of writing a book which as he terms it “is a comparative analysis of the Bible and the Qur’an, and it assumes that both books are correct.  If God is the principal author of each book, as Christians and Muslims claim, then a comparative analysis should reveal harmony between the principal teachings of both.  This is what I have found.  Hence, Christians and Muslims have been kept apart by their religious leaders who have taught their adherents that God has rejected the other group.” The topic matter was thought to be so contentious that he originally penned his book using a pseudonym.

Phillip’s book is titled Brothers Kept Apart and can be purchased on Amazon.com at a reasonable price. Some members of the BU family have already demonstrated that they are students of the religions. Brother Phillips advises that the book represents 30 years of research and 7 years of critical review and he stands ready to defend his thesis.

It is no secret that the BU household has demonstrated a keen interest in the religions or what some people disparagingly refer to as dogmas. It is a fascinating subject and one which is shrouded in mystery, allegories, parables, fables and some theology  Religion has been used through the ages to edify and destroy man’s existence. Of interest to all through the ages has been the cooption of  religion to pit Islam versus Christianity, East versus West by geo-political motivated groups.

For a synopsis of the book the BU family is welcomed to visit Phillips’s blog. We look forward to a fascinating discussion and take the opportunity to wish him every success.

What he has attempted demonstrates courage of conviction, a characteristic in scarce supply.

.

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1,124 responses to “The Bible And The Qur'an, Brothers Kept Apart”

  1. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP

    “Please note that when I said that All hell will brek loose now, I was referring to the BU fraternity responding to my post…”

    How come all hell ain’t break loose? You twisting your mouth. You are just plain belligerent like all Christians and believers in the bible.

  2. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @Zoe
    SOME TRUTHS ABOUT FALSE TEACHERS ( 2 Peter 2: 1-3)
    Verse I- FalseTeachers are deceitful, secretive and subtle (“privily”)
    False teachers teach damnable heresies (similar but not the same)
    False Teachers deny the Lord that bought them
    False Teachers will be destroyed surely and swiftly Verse 2- False Teachers will be successful (many)
    False Teachers are seductive (follow)
    False Teachers are sinful (pernicious)
    False Teachers are swerving (their ways are erroneous and erratic)
    False Teachers are slanderous (way of truth evil spoken of).
    Verse3- False Teachers are motivated by covetousness
    False Teachers make merchandise of unlearned believers with feigned words.
    False Teachers’ meeting with God; their sentence or Judgement is sure and swift.
    False Teachers are self destructing
    ………………………………………….

    You describe yourself and GP so well here.

  3. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @Zoe

    “In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth.”

    You are an insult to the intelligence of mankind. The problem with your God who so claimed to have created the world is that he left out so much that he even got his dates wrong. Put it down to senility?

    The USA Created the State of Israel too.

  4. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @David

    They did it to Africa and black people all over the world, now they have done it with Mexico.

    This is pathetic. What did Mexico do to deserve this. Imagine this coming to Barbados:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8028169.stm

  5. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/2706/spaceb.jpg

    After you click, click on the image to enlarge it. It shows how tiny the earth and how insignificant it is in the whole scheme of things.

    We’re one tiny planet, among billions of stars, in one galaxy among trillions of galaxies..

    But you’ll have me believe that some creature is somewhere out there, directing what happens in this tiny slither of land we call earth?

    And he loves us all and can’t get things to work on this tiny little place?

    Seriously, click to get an idea of the scales I’m talking about:

    http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/2706/spaceb.jpg

  6. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Ah Boy
    Hopi returns
    Gotcha on the use of term Aboriginal

    Zoe look out..!

    ROK
    Got a passage from “A Natural History of the Senses“by Daine Ackerman. Got to type it up first!

  7. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Evolutionary scientists have a lot of ‘faith’ believing untestable propositions, as Mark Twain said, “faith is believing things you know are not true” yes, especially when scientific inquiry depends upon the premise that there is order in the universe. If this premise were not true, science would be meaningless. Implicit in this premise is the corollary that our experience bears a true relationship to the orderliness of the universe. The order premise and its corollary, however, require a leap of faith which science cannot avoid making. Without this act of faith, science as an activity cannot be done as a body of knowledge cannot exist.

    “But,” someone may say, “I thought science was grounded in empirical facts so solidly that it would never have appeal to faith.”

    Science is forced to assume that there is order in the universe. Scientists must believe (or act as if they believe) that this premise is profoundly true, or they cannot do any sort of scientific investigation, and science itself cannot exist.

    Where did this ‘order’ in the universe come from, pure random chance selection, out of no where, just so?

    A theologian might enter at this point, and say, “Yes, than God, there is.”

    Is there no logical basis for the order premise? Is there no rational basis for the claim that there is order in the universe, an order so amazingly and so vastly complex, that it even leaves the scientists in awe, struggling to unravel its utterly majestic beauty and ‘Order’ and they say, all of this just happened by random chance, no designer, no creator, no God!

    This is why our Almighty Creator, said:

    “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord” (Isa. 1:18a). Or why would David have said, :O taste and see that the Lord is good” (Psa. 34:8a)? Or why would John have written in the Revelation: “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely” (22:17)?

    Clearly, then, if the Lord had meant for men to take a leap into darkness, blind faith, surely He would not have spoken of “reason.” If he had intended for us to sack up our brains and leave them at the university library, He would not have recommended the act of “tasting” ( a cognate of the word “testing”) and “seeing.” If the Lord had not intended to engage the intellect of man, He would not have spoken to us in words that we can comprehend, nor would He have referred to the believer generically as “him that heareth.”

    Besides all that, for what is man “athirst” if not for understanding? What does man long for, if not resolution of the mystery of his own existence? Jesus said:

    “And ye shall KNOW the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall make you free” (John 8:32). He did not say, “And ye shall take a leap into darkness by faith and in the void you shall never know anything for sure.” Jesus did not agree with Mark Twain. Faith is NOT believing what you know is not true. On the contrary, faith, if it is faith, is believing in what is true.

    On the other hand, what if one believes what is not true? Can it be said that such a person is full of faith? If faith is placed in anything other than truth, it is no longer faith. It becomes foolishness, deception, conceit, or something else.

    Yet, the common man in each of us believes, for the most part, that the order premise of science has some justification. We know, without need of further evidence, that science has some solid basis. If that basis cannot be found in the reason of philosophy, or in the facts of experience, where can it be found?

    To the believer, we say again: “Thank God it can be found in His revelation.

    The order premise of the universe, speaks loudly in its absolutely eloquent, yet, silent majestic awesomeness, as it displays His handiwork, when all the heavens shout and sing His glory in a language beyond human expression, a language which no human language can deny (Psa. 19), and when science depends on the very espression of intelligence which is found in none other than the God of the Bible, where shall anyone hide if he tries to remain in unbelief? How will they justify their skepticism?

    Evolutionary humanism, masquering as science, is often held out as a ‘scientific’ stronghold in which man can take refuge, but Almighty God assessed it and found it wanting long ago:

    “Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with Hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made LIES our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves;
    Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: He that believeth shall not make haste ( Isa. 28: 15-16).

    But, some may contend, “I’m looking for literature that will relate the teachings of the Bible in a ‘coherent’ manner to the findings of empirical science.”

    There is much literature out there, written by a number of very competent, bright, well trained scientists, who are not willing to leave their brains behind when they enter the hallowed halls of theological discussion, intelligent men, who are unwilling to take a leap of “scientific’ faith into darkness. It is those men and women who are willing to examine the Bible and science critically, thoughtfully, and intelligently, literature that is loaded with empirical evidences showing the veracity of the Bible, coherently linking the order premise of the universe, with the Creation account of Genesis, as outlined in His Word, the Bible.

    As Legal jurists have said, any one with a willing mind, opened to consider the ‘evidence’ simply, cannot without, being intellectually dishonest, refute the facts of sound science.

  8. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    It is no accident that we have a day which we call SUN-DAY originally dedicated to the Sun God and which is set aside for Christians.

  9. rohan Avatar
    rohan

    Rok,
    and they celebrate christmas day on Dec 25th, which “ever so coincidentally of course” is the same day used to celebrate the winter solstice when the Sun is at its largest angular distance from an observer.

    This was traditionally used to celebrate the rebirth of Sun Gods and Dec 25th is also the Romans day to celebrate their Sun Gods.

    But wait….now it’s Jesus’s birthday! LMAO, how ridiculous.

  10. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    What does LMAO mean?

  11. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Rohan,

    Don’t forget Easter and it is no accident that they have taken over all the dates of the so-called Pagans; what hypocrisy!

  12. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    BAFBFP

    Looka my a** old. LOL! Can’t help you. Ask Chris, he is the master.

  13. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Zoe writes :

    “Science is forced to assume that there is order in the universe. ”

    —-

    Actually no.

  14. Anon Avatar
    Anon

    LMAO = laughing my ass off

  15. Sir Bentwood Dick Avatar
    Sir Bentwood Dick

    My karma ate my dogma, the little people told me so…..

  16. Sir Bentwood Dick Avatar
    Sir Bentwood Dick

    Sorry, I am in a mischievous mood…

    but then again, maybe its ‘my truckma ate my catma’…?….

  17. Barracuda Avatar
    Barracuda

    Rohan, you’ve done it again! “…the bible’s account of the age of the world.”

    The only “account” in the Bible of the age of the world is in Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

    FYI, the 6000 year-old earth age that skeptics like yourself and ROK, Mr. BANGOman, are so fond of quoting, originally came from a theory of the so-called Anglican divine, Archbishop James Ussher, Archbishop of Armagh and Primate [talk about making a monkey of onesself] of All Ireland who, making broad assumptions from the geneaologies in the Genesis account, as to their years and completeness, came up with a date of Creation of Sunday October 23rd, 4oo4 B.C. Beyond that the good Archbishop did not care to commit himself.

    See the link: http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/ussher.htm

    This, dear Rohan, is where the 6000 year-old earth theory came from, not from the Bible. It came from a fallible human being like me and, dare I say it, you. So let’s have no more of your “eisegesis ” that the Bible account says this and that. It does not. End of Story!

    Surely, in the interest of intellectual honesty, you would have researched this yourself before accusing me and many others of ignorance, and continuing to parrot the line that Christians believe in a 6000 year old earth. But vilification is much easier than research, isn’t it?

    Maybe it’s a case, as Sir Bentwood Dick so eloquently and amusingly put it, of “My Karma ran over my Dogma.”

  18. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    The bible may not say it, but many christians say it [the earth is 6,000 years old] and moreover the very same claim the bible for their authority.

    Is there anything else the christians disagree on from the bible?

  19. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Barracuda,
    Do you know how many christians believe in the 6,000 year old earth? There’s an entire subset of christians here in the U.S that do.

    Yes, your idiots in arms.

    Oh and God is infallible?

    The same God that created this world, saw his creation mess up, so he had to destroy them all in some huge flood and start over.

    Then even when he started over it’s still all jacked up.

    So he went on a rage of destruction, murder, pillage, slavery, rape, and all other types of atrocities (cause he’s a jealous god of course).

    The same infallible, perfect god who created the animals and 90% of all species that walked the earth are now extinct.

    That perfect God? Is there anything about this world that shows it was done by a perfect creature?

    You couldn’t have messed this world up more if you tried.

    Now, you’re waiting for his return, the same return that was supposed to take place “before this generation is over!”

    Shouldn’t you be somewhere talking to your imaginary friend? Tell him there are 30,000 people who will die of starvation today. See if he’ll help.

  20. Barracuda Avatar
    Barracuda

    Wow, such aggression, such outrage! “Idiots in arms!” And such railing against an entity that’s not supposed to exist! Talk about imaginary friends! Rohan, you are proof positive of the adage that, “Just because you’re paranoid, it doesn’t mean they’re not out to get ya! But, then again, seeing from your post that you live in the USA, I’m not surprised at your paranoia!

    Perhaps if you had used just a little bit of your highly-evolved intellect, you could have discerned from my post that I am not one of those sub-set of Christians that believe in a 6000 year-old earth. Christian yes! 6000 year-old earth, no!

    One last question Rohan, speaking of the 30,000 people who you claim will die of starvation today, I contributed to the food-bank for the needy at our church this morning. What did YOU DO?

  21. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    Pompous, condescending, arrogant, beating of one’s chest…….Barracuda, new to this blog but sounding so familiar…..must be the way Christians behave.

  22. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    Barracuda,
    I didn’t care to discern from your post what aspect of your fairy tale you believed in or not.

    Think I care if you believe Santa starts delivering his gifts in Japan or starts in Puerto Rico? Makes no difference, it’s still an absurd fairy tale.

    As for you donating money to your church this morning. Kudos. But wouldn’t it have worked better to pray for God to send some more Manna?

  23. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Barracuda

    Like Technician said, pompous, arrogant and new to the thread… but you only have to check back the said Bible from the time Adam & Eve left the garden, check the generations down to Noah and then to Abraham.

    Having done that check for the date of the flood and the most important thing is to understand that the first written Hebrew recorded was around 1500BC.

    Calculate how long it would take for a people to develop writing skills and remember that the Egyptians were writing long before 1500BC, so they had a structure to copy from. Even if they had nothing to copy from, they could have begun with drawings like the Egyptians. It certainly could not have been much more than a thousand years before they started to write.

    The Sumerians and the civilisations before them existed some 40,000 years ago and it could not have taken the Hebrews that long as a race to develop a language.

    Remember also that when Adam & Eve left the garden they went into a civilisation; not sure where that civilisation came from according to you. If God made man, then Adam and Eve should have been the only people on Earth. How old could Adam have been? 500 yrs? Maybe you would want to tell me 40,000 years old.

    So if you think that the world of science is depending on some insignificant Archbishop of old to determine the age of the Bible and its contents you are so wrong.

    Finally, what the church decrees is what you are supposed to believe in and not what you think. Christianity all over the world recognises that according to the evidence from the Bible, the world; the entire universe is not billions far less millions of years old. Don’t even reach a million.

    God made all the animals and Adam named them, are dinosaurs among the animals he named? What does the fossil evidence say?

    You so much want to believe in the bible that you would strain at a knat to prove the whole world wrong… but how Mr. BANGO get in. That is another one of your Christian dirty moves, to try to ridicule and pull down. Stick to the argument. All the BANGO don’t make a difference and you ain’t saying anything nobody don’t know.

    But you hide behind a pseudonym, trying to insult somebody? Show your face or let me find out who you are and then we can trade insults. I want you to know that your computer has an IP address, so really you ain’t so anonymous and that IP address can be traced to a street address and down to a building where the internet service is being used. So don’t feel too comfortable.

    I don’t have to go to the telephone company to do that. I can do it from right here on my laptop. We will see who have skeletons in their closets.

  24. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @Barracuda

    “contributed to the food-bank for the needy at our church this morning. What did YOU DO?”

    What you got to do is stop trying to use your money contributions to save yourself the bother. You should go and hand out the food or cook it and share it to make sure it ain’t going into the Pastor’s pantry.

    I would also risk to bet that it was some tin of food that the stuffings get lick out before it get in the tin. Is that food? That is poison. Poor people need wholesome food. You really don’t care, do you? You doing the minimum in the hope of going to heaven, but heaven is anything and everything including the earth. If you lived on Mars, Earth would be in the heavens for you skipper.

  25. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    In the first creation story (Genesis 1)
    God created animals first and then Adam.

    In the second creation story (Genesis 2), God created Adam first and then the animals.

    So a perfect God, writing his perfect book, couldn’t get the facts right from one chapter til the next.

    Before the bible even got past the first few pages there is an inconsistency, and it just gets crazier from there.

    How do christians reconcile obvious errors like this?

  26. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    “How do christians reconcile obvious errors like this?”

    —-

    Pretty much the same way they do on the remainder that follow

  27. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    LOL @ Not Saved…

    The reconciliation process goes something like this:

    Well you see, what God meant in the first chapter, was blah blah blah blah, and he thus when he said 5th day, he meant the 5th 1000 years, since 1000 years is a day, and thus after day 999, day 1000 happened, which technically is the following day, which reconciles based on blah blahblah blah, and then yadadyadda!

    See? So when God said he made men first and then animals, and then a few pages later say that he made animals first and then man…it all makes perfect sense.

    You just need some UNDERSTANDING!

    sheesh! haha

  28. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @ Barracuda,

    “you could have discerned from my post that I am not one of those sub-set of Christians that believe in a 6000 year-old earth. Christian yes! 6000 year-old earth, no!”

    Can’t have it both ways fella. You either a christian or not. You can’t be a christian with your personal beliefs, otherwise you ain’t christian. As a christian you are duty bound to believe the bible without question. You can’t just come and change it just so…

    but that is the exact point that Rohan making; the inconsistencies and contradictions are too many. So you need to accept and argue that it is 6000 years or slide away from christianity; or don’t you get it? If you come back here with any contradictions or trying to interpret it how you feel like, I will cease to recognise you as a christian and call you a renegade with christian sympathies… but all of you would not be christian. So make up your mind.

  29. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    lol…….a renegade with christian sympathies.

    Go Rok!!

  30. Santa Avatar
    Santa

    Rohan said ‘Think I care if you believe Santa starts delivering his gifts in Japan or starts in Puerto Rico? Makes no difference, it’s still an absurd fairy tale.’

    You ent getting nutting from me next Xmas!

  31. Santa Avatar
    Santa

    ‘Specially when you keep writing me about that blue bicycle youn ent get when you wuz ten, then come on here an talk foolishness!

  32. Rohan Avatar
    Rohan

    LOL,
    My bad Santa, I was just trying to make a point. So make that a silver bmx please.
    thanks 🙂

  33. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Santa
    Man you more omniscient that the christian god. Only had to call your name once and you appear…

  34. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    In God’s Genesis account, the History of Creation, it would have taken volumes alone to name every living creature; instead He gives us:

    “Then God said, ‘Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens. So God created great sea creatures and EVERY LIVING THING that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their ‘kind’ and every winged bird according to its ‘kind’. And God saw that it was good.
    Then God said. ‘Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its ‘kind’: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind’, and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth according to its ‘kind’ cattle according to its ‘kind’ and everything that creeps on the earth according to its ‘kind’. And God saw that it was good.” ( Genesis 1:20-21; 24-25).

    To the ‘Pinhead’ who keeps harping that Dinosaurs are not mentioned in the Bible, neither are the vast array of other creatures, by name, that is, only a few are mentioned by name, as it is not significant to do you.

    However, in the Biblical record two strange animals are mentioned that may well refer to two kinds of Dinosaurs, these are ‘Behemoth’ and ‘Leviathan’ described in Job 40 and 41 respectively. While some commentators have commonly identified the behemoth with either the elephant or hippopotamus, and the leviathan with the crocodile, it is obvious from the descriptions (in Job 40:15-24 and Job 41: 1-34) that these animals in no way qualify for such indentification.

    The description of ‘behemoth’ more accurately fit what we know about such a land ‘dinosaur’ as ‘brontosaurus, for example, and leviathan fits what we know about some marine dinosaurs, such as the ‘plesiosaur’ or ‘ichthyosaur’ for example.

    In the context, Job and his three friends are philosophizing about life and its meaning, going back and forth, and apparently getting nowhere, just as people do today! Then God comes down and speaks to them directly, telling them in effect, that their basic problem is an inadequate perspective on the greatness and uniqueness of His creation.

    “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding” (Job 38:4). then, for the next two chapters (Jop 38, 39), God ask a series of rhetorical questions concerning different facts of His creation, all indicating a fully accurate scientific perspective, and even suggesting a number of scientific facts millennia before their recognition by modern scientists.

    Finally, God comes to the climax of His discourse, describing the two greatest animals He had created, the mighty ‘behemoth’ (the greatest land animal), and the fearsome ‘leviathan’ (the greatest sea animal). As one reads these descriptions carefully, it quickly becomes obvious that these animals are not the elephant and the crocodile!

    Note the description of behemoth in Job 40: 15-24, and observe how impossible it is to apply these words to either the elephant or the hippopotamus:

    “Behold now behemoth.” The very word means a uniquely gigantic and powerful beast. An ordinary beast is called ‘behema’ in the Hebrew, but, this is a special beast, “the chief of the ways of God.” No man could trap this animal: “his nose pierceth through snares.” “His strength is in his loins, and his force in in the navel [ that is, probably ‘cord’ or ‘sinwes’] of his belly. He moveth his tail like a cedar.” One should try to visualize the tail of an elephant or a hippopotamus as he reads this! And one should also visualize the mighty ‘brontosaurus’ or ‘tyrannosaurus’ or some other great terrestrial dinosaur, as, no other animal we are aware of, living or extinct, fits the bill.

    The same is true of the ‘leviathan’ described in detail throughout Job 41.

    Two other references to the leviathan in Scripture also suggest the great size and ferocity of this great sea monster, (Psa. 74: 13-14; Psa. 104:25-26).

    In addition to the Biblical and ethnological evidences, there is also some good geological evidence of the coexistence of men and dinosaurs. Numerous footprints of various kinds of dinosaurs are well preserved in a Cretaceous limestone formation near Glen Rose, Texas, and the area has actually been set aside as a dinosaur park by the state of Texas. In the same formation many human footprints have been reported over the years, of various sizes, some wearing sandles, and some barefoot. Naturally, evolutionists have rejected this evidence, of course arguing that some tracks are now missing, and some give evidence of unknown reptilian origin!

    There are many other lines of evidence as well, though these also have been ignored or rejected by evolutionists.

    Dinosaur pictographs made by early tribal artists have been found in Arizona, Siberia, Zimbabwe, and elsewhere.

    Back to basics though, even if we take the geological ages at face value, all the way from the Cambrian period of the Palezoic era to the Pleistocene epoch of the Cenozoic era, the remarkable FACT, is, that there IS still NOT the slightest evidence for evolution in the fossile record. That is, out of ALL the billions of fossils known and documented in the rocks of the earth’s crust, fossils in tremendous variety, representing both extinct and living kinds, there IS NOT a single true transitional evolutionary form that has yet been excavated ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

    Even Stephen Jay Gould of Harvard, a while ago, as one of the leading representatives of this modern school of paleontologists, made the following admission at that time.

    “All paleontologists know that the fossil record contains precious little in the way of intermediate forms, transitions between major groups are characteristically abrupt.”

    Of course, Gould and his colleahue Niles Eldredge, then created the concept of what they call ‘punctuated equilibrium’ in order to get around the glaring evidence of the fossile record, which lends no support for the ‘theory’ of evolution, BUT, speak loudly in favour of, and good scientific evidence in support of Creation, exactly as God in Genesis states.

    They, the evolutionists, continue to fabricate all kinds of pseudo-scientific terms, to get around the true scientifc facts of the fossil evidence, that Creation is the truth.

    This is a remarkable state of affairs. Evolution is supposed to deal with ‘change’ in organisms, and yet, another pseudo term ‘stasis’ which means ‘no change’ is pulled out of the magic hat!

    As already noted and documented, there have been, and are NO true evolutionary transitional forms ANYWHERE either in the living world, or the fossil world.

    The evidence from the fossil record, expresses the kind of evidence one would expect to find on the basis of the Genesis record of creation. Ten times in the very first chapter of the Bible, the phrase “after its kind” is used, implying a firm genetric basis for the reproduction process that would preclude evolutionary transmutations from one kind into a different kind. The ‘kind’ (Hebrew min) may not be equivalent to what modern systematists mean by ‘species,’ but, it does mean some category beyond which variation IS NOT permitted. And the fact is, both genetically and paleontologically, that there IS still NO unequivocal scientific evidence that “microevolution” (that is, ‘variation’) ever transgresses even the species boundary!

    No wonder there are NO transitional forms ever found in the fossils, because they NEVER existed! When Almighty God progammed creatures to reproduce only according to their own kinds, He intended for this program to be carried out. He is both Omniscient and Omnipotent. He was able to design creatures the way, He, in His Omniscience, knew they should be designed, and He was able, in His Omnipotence, to build them that way. Therefore, He will see to it that, as long as they exist, they will stay the way He designed and created them.

    Since all the evidence, both Biblical and scientific, precisely fits special creation, the big question is, why people believe in evolution at all. But, that is a theological question, not a scientific question!

  35. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Thank you Zoe for a superb example of “quoting mining”, a tool of the intellectually dishonest.

    You quoted Stephen Jay Gould as follows :

    “The fossil record with its abrupt transitions offers no support for gradual change. All paleontologists know that the fossil record contains precious little in the way of intermediate forms; transitions between major groups are characteristically abrupt”

    From the wiki:

    The context that immediately follows demonstrates that this view is articulated only in order to reject it:

    “Although I reject this argument (for reasons discussed in [“The Episodic Nature of Evolutionary Change”]), let us grant the traditional escape and ask a different question.[12]”

    Gould was scathing on such misleading quotations:

    Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists — whether through design or stupidity, I do not know — as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. The punctuations occur at the level of species; directional trends (on the staircase model) are rife at the higher level of transitions within major groups.[13]

  36. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    According to Zoe :

    “there IS NOT a single true transitional evolutionary form that has yet been excavated ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD

    From the wiki:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils

  37. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    “Yes, evolution by descent from a common ancestor is clearly true. If there was any lingering doubt about the evidence from the fossil record, the study of DNA provides the strongest possible proof of our relatedness to all other living things.”

    [Francis Collins, Geneticist and believing Christian]

  38. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    “We have an enormous amount of information as to what life was like in the past. That information tells us that life changed, that it changed in a particular pattern, and that the history of change is complete, with one example after another of descent with modification, an ancestor-descendant relationship between organisms. And in a few lucky cases, we can trace almost step by step the evolution of key organisms in the history of life”

    [Ken Miller, Prof of Biology and practicing Roman Catholic]

  39. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    From NOVA,

    “In 2004, a field crew digging in the Canadian Arctic unearthed the fossil remains of a half-fish, half-amphibian that would all but confirm paleontologists’ theories about how land-dwelling tetrapods (four-limbed animals, including us) evolved from their fish ancestors. The animal was a so-called lobe-finned fish that lived about 375 million years ago. Named Tiktaalik rosae by its discoverers, it is a classic example of a transitional form, one that bridges the evolutionary gap between two quite different types of animal. “

  40. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    And what did Zoe say….

    “there IS NOT a single true transitional evolutionary form that has yet been excavated ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD”

    ———

    Now that is just simply dishonest.

  41. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    And to repeat Harvard professor, Stephen Jay Gould…….

    “it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists — whether through design or stupidity, I do not know — as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms”

    ———-

    Zoe, which is it in your case ?

    dishonest design or just plain stupidity?

  42. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Zoe writes:

    “Finally, God comes to the climax of His discourse, describing the two greatest animals He had created”

    —-

    And then apparently, he made them extinct.

  43. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Technician,

    This is what the evidence suggests:

    Universe – 13.5 billion years
    Earth – 4.5 billion years
    Prokaryotes – 4.0 billion years
    Eukaryotes – 2.5 billion years
    Eve eats apple (Eukaryotes ingest mitochondria – endosymbiosis) – ? years 🙂
    Hominids – 0.006 billion years
    Homo Sapien – 0.00015 billion years

  44. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    I should have added…

    Bush Tea – 0.000000001 billion years

  45. Eddie, Avatar
    Eddie,

    Am I to believe that “perfect order” as found in –
    The Solar system
    The animal kingdom
    Planet Earth
    The oceanic system……all came about by evolving over time?

    Please, credit me with at least a little intelect.
    What is the next phase of evolvement for man; the animals; the insects; every living thing?

    The theory of Evolution sounds like wisdom from the Greeks; but it is just a theory… and a theory full of holes.

  46. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Zoe

    If I am a pinhead and that is meant to be an insult, then you must certainly be happy with your clout head. Give thanks.

    But for a man with a clout head I find it hard to believe that you don’t have the necessary knowledge to understand what is after its kind.

    I am told by others with a normal head but above average exercise of the brain that tell me that all the primates are family by DNA construct except Man, who has all the other characteristics of a primate.

    The missing links in the “present thinking” of science is the evolution of mankind from being on four legs, to being on two, to Homo Sapiens, present man. While all the other primates have 48 chromosomes man has 46. Therein lies the clue to creating improving intelligence and consciousness through genetic engineering.

    Now man is different and really has no family on earth. A naive mind like yours would want to use this as evidence that God made man… and yes your god did; just like those scientists made cows for meat and cows for milk through breeding.

    Yes, studies of the cow, for example, has been able to produce a cow for meat and a cow for milk. It is true that this natural selection does exist and the genetic materials already exist; I leave you to MME on that.

    Adam was produced after the likeness of God; image and likeness. (again we must come to this matter of after their own kind). Not every genetic mixture will produce useless freaks. Many of our ancestors rode mules. Take the clue:

    Genesis 1-26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    It would be good if you could examine this sentence closely. First, “Let us make man in our image…” Is it possible that God was referring to something that already existed? “Let us make man” a “known creature” in our image, “let us mess with his genes” and give him intelligence, i.e. let “them” have dominion… over all the earth.

    Again “them”; referring to something that already existed and probably at the evolutionary stage (maybe) just beyond the next most intelligent creature on earth. Or maybe it was man’s structure and build that made him a better candidate than the monkey or the ape.

    Your god engineered homo sapiens using their superior knowledge of genetic construction, which is where we have reached in modern science today and if we are reaching that stage now, after 3500 years you would know that your god’s knowledge would have advanced even further. God also knew that man would not remain static and even turned man out of the garden for fear that he was learning too fast and that turning man out of the garden was the only way to retard his knowledge and life span. He then had to come up with a plan, right?

    Understand the implications if the average life span of man was 500 years. If you understand the importance of continuity as it relates to efficiency and informed decision making, then you understand why man could not be allowed to live long. Man would become a threat to the Gods and possibly take over the earth and all its heavenly domain.

    Man was made to serve, which is what christians do. they serve by allowing the elite to own the world, including them. So we go to work everyday and produce a value which is taxed and then, for example, your tax dollars will go towards stockpiling medication for swine flu, which is not returnable whether or not used by expiry date.

    Consider this money snatched from us because we never planned for it and we got to give it to the drug companies because we fear swine flu, which was probably manufactured and planted by the same drug manufacturers, in order to secure sales for the drugs and the kits. Anybody understand what this phobia has done? The illuminati must be smiling and patting themselves on their backs.

    They had it set up all along. They even had the drug manufactured and ready for distribution to meet the stockpiling demand caused by the phobia; billions of dollars; but that is the subject of discussion in another thread. Wow! Thank God for America! Who you think you fooling?

    Now they realise that they mashing up the pig farmers, they want us to stop calling it swine flu. Dog already dead; time for damage control.

    However, more damaging is the fact that Eve came from Adam’s rib. Again that reference to genetic materials… but god had to make a female of the species in order for the species to survive; did he not?

    The other reference to genetic interference was when the the sons of the gods came to earth and saw that the daughters of man were fair and took unto them wives… and there were giants in the land.

    The Sons of God? They were flesh and blood? They had sex? they had children who were might men?…

    I don’t think you will enjoy part 2, Zoe.

  47. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Not Saved… here is a shortlist of famous Christian scientists… Google them… can you imagine what modern science would be without these guys?

    Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Brahe, Descartes, Boyle Newton, Leibniz, Gassendi, Pascal, Mersenne, Curvier, Harvey, Dalton, Faraday, Joule, Lyell, Lavoisier, Priestley, Kelvin, Ohm, Ampere, Volta, Steno, Pasteur, Maxwell, Planck, Shrodinger, Vesalius, von Neumann, Brahe, Fleming, Fermi, Euler, Huygens, Gauss, Marconi, Heisenberg, Mendel, Lemaitre etc.

    Many were clergymen, some were priests… virtually all were devout Christians who credited their Christian beliefs for their scientific interests and acumen. The last two make for particularly interesting reading… Mendel (a Roman Catholic priest) the father of modern genetics, and Lemaitre (a Roman Catholic priest) the father of the ‘Big Bang’ theory originally known as the ‘hypothesis of the primeval atom’.

    I am not suggesting that other religions and ideologies didn’t make important contributions (I am sure you can come up with your own list LOL)… but reinforcing the fact that Christianity has had a significant and profound impact on modern science… more so than ANY other religious doctrine or secular world view.

  48. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Eddie writes :

    “Am I to believe that “perfect order” as found in –
    The Solar system
    The animal kingdom
    Planet Earth
    The oceanic system……all came about by evolving over time?”

    ——

    No you do not.

    There is not “perfect order” in anything you listed.

    Yes it is just a theory.

  49. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Rohan, “Before the Bible even got past the first few pages there is an inconsistency. How do Christians reconcile obvious errors like this?”

    Rohan, there is no inconsistency or ‘…obvious error like this’ between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, or to put your question another way. “Doesn’t Genesis 2 present a different creation order than Genesis 1?

    The answer is no! The second chapter of Genesis describes in greater detail certain of the events of the sixth day of creation, especially the formation of the first man, Adam, and the woman, Eve.

    It does not in any respect contradict the account in the first chapter, but, instead is complementary to it. How is this so?

    Well, Genesis 2 does not present a creation account at all, but, presupposes the completion work of creation as set forth in chapter 1. The first three verses of Genesis 2, simply carry the narrative of chapter 1 to its final and logical conclusion, using the same vocabulary and style as employed in the previous chapter. It sets forth the completion of the whole primal work of creation and the special sanctity conferred on the seventh day as a symbol and memorial of God’s creative work. Verse 4 then sums up the whole sequence that has just been surveyed by saying. “These are the generations of heaven and earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh God made heaven and earth.

    Having finished the overall survey of the subject, the author then develops in detail one important feature that has already been mentioned, the creation of man. As Kenneth Kitchen points out:

    “Genesis 1 mentions the creation of man as the last of a series, and without any details, whereas in Genesis 2, man is the center of interest, and more specific details are given about him and his setting. Failure to recognize the complementary nature of the subject-distinction between a skeleton outline of all creation on the one hand, and the concentration in detail on man and his immediate environment on the other, borders on obscurantism.” (Ancient Orient, p.117).

    It is therefore quite obvious that Genesis I is the only creation account to be found in the Hebrew Scripture, and it is already presupposed as the background of Genesis 2.

    The structure of Genesis 2 stands in clear contrast to every creation account known to comparative literature. It was never intended to be a creation account at all, except insofar as it related the circumstances of man’s creation as a child of God, fashioned in His image, infused with His breath of life, and brought into an intimate personal relationship with the Lord Himself. Quite clearly, then, chapter 2 is built on the foundation of chapter I, and represents no different tradition than the first chapter or discrepant account of the order of creation.

  50. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    … putting contributions to modern science aside for a moment, a list of the first organized movements and people to agitate for the universal abolishment of slavery would similarly read like roll-call at confirmation class… (send us a Google search for that Rohan LOL). The world view/moral position of EVERY documented culture/doctrine that preceded this ‘moral enlightenment’ was that slavery was acceptable under certain circumstances. It is intellectually dishonest to single out any single culture or belief system for something that ALL (without exception) were guilty of. The fact is, the sparks of light that would eventually lead to the moral position most of us hold today in relation to slavery originated within Christian denominations.

    Beneath all of the rhetoric and red-herrings injected into this debate (by both sides I might add LOL) lies an inescapable (inconvenient?) truth… Judeo-Christian philosophy is the main pillar on which our Western moral value system, ‘enlightenment’ and scientific revolution rests.

    I end with a quote from the ‘dark side’… from one of the most notorious and influential atheists of all time, Frederick Nietzsche…

    “… you will have grasped where I am headed – namely, that our faith in science still rests upon a metaphysical faith; that even we knowers of today, we godless ones and anti-metaphysicians, still take even our fire from the flame first lit by a faith thousands of years old, that faith of Christians which was also the faith of Plato, that God is truth, that truth is divine.”

    … a rare glimpse of intellectual honesty seldom found among atheists… excluding those found here on BU of course 🙂

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