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Minister of Economic Affairs, Empowerment, Innovation, Trade, Industry and Commerce
Deputy Opposition Leader and Former Attorney General Dale Marshall

The publicized incident which is alleged to have occurred on the parliament compound last Friday night has set tongues wagging near and far. It is not the norm for a fight or shall we refer to it as a disagreement to occur between our parliamentarians. What makes the report even more alarming is the realization that two of our most prominent members of parliament Minister David Estwick and Deputy Opposition Leader Dale Marshall are the actors involved.

BU understand that the rules of parliament forbids the Commissioner of Police to mount an investigation. Barbadians will have to await the action of the Speaker of the House Michael Carrington. Westminster conventions require the Speaker to investigate and act in a non-partisan manner. Any incident which involves the blandishing of a firearm in a threatening manner merits careful review.

There was a time when such an incident which we understand to have occurred between Marshall and Estwick would have been hushed-up and eventually forgotten. No such luck in a more enlightened age.

BU reserve comment for now to give the Speaker of the House a little time to consult and act.


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479 responses to “Two Members Of Parliament David Estwick And Dale Marshall Go At It!”


  1. http://WWW.BARBADOSTODAY.BB page 3

    PRIME MINISTER David Thompson is proposing the establishment of a special committee to review the House of Assembly’s existing procedures and practices following a recent altercation between two sitting members.
    Thompson says any such assessment should include whether or not Parliamentarians should be allowed to take firearms into the House, something he believed was not “desirable”, and how private citizens have been vilified by Members of Parliament in the past.
    Thompson was making his first full statement on the incident involving Minister of Economic Affairs Dr. Estwick and former Attorney –General Dale Marshall that took place within the precincts of Parliament last Friday night.
    Speaking to reporters during a post-Cabinet briefing at Government Headquarters, Bay Street, St. Michael this afternoon, the Prime Minister said while he was out of the country at the time, he understood the two MPs representing St. Phillip West and St. Joseph “came to high words” and that the matter was one to be dealt with by Speaker of the House Michael Carrington.
    But he noted because the issue had wider implications in terms of the behavior of Parliamentarians generally and their public image, something had to be done now before things got worse.
    Thompson proposed either the establishment of a special bipartisan select committee of Parliament to assess long-standing rules and regulations or an extra-Parliamentary body that would include a cross section of Barbadians including former Parliamentarians and journalist. He favoured the second option.
    “So notwithstanding the fact that the Speaker does have the right to determine the outcome, that has nothing to do with me and I don’t want to remove in any way the convention of privilege according to members and I don’t have the right, I believe that in the year 2010 that we need to be serious about reviewing the current regime of procedures and practices and to determine what is desirable and what is not,” he said.
    Asked whether sitting Members of Parliament should be allowed to carry guns into the House of Assembly, Thompson said this issue was one that also had to be examined within the wider review.


  2. Adrian Hinds // March 24, 2010 at 9:01 PM
    to David….

    You carrying on as if the current parliamentary procedures were constructed to give a hoot what the people say. Unacceptable to whom? chupse.

    ———————————————————-
    Wunnuh mussee hear me call for parliamentary reform.

    THOMPSON proposed either the establishment of a special bipartisan select committee of Parliament to assess long-standing rules and regulations or an extra-Parliamentary body that would include a cross section of Barbadians including former Parliamentarians and journalist. He favoured the second option.

    He favours the second option.

    If the people are included in parliamentary reform, which people will remember this incident?


  3. Bad Man Saying Nuttin

    A quick note, If Hinds is the Acting Commissioner then the decision is solely his. He does not have to consult with Mr. Dottin because he, Hinds, is THE COMMISSIONER while Dottin is on duty leave
    *************************************************************************
    Technically you are correct, however this subject was being thoroughly ventilated in the Press and everyone knows where the Commissioner stood on the matter. If the Deputy Commissioner disagreed with him then he should have aired his thoughts in private but to act contrary to the Commissioner’s wishes in such a public manner is highly disrespectful and that’s putting it mildly. What he has done is to put their rift in public for all to see and the senior ranks of the Police should be seen as speaking with one voice.

    In other similar organisations he would not be viewed as a “team player” and his ascent would be at an end however this is Barbados where other considerations are paramount.

  4. Wishing In Vain Avatar
    Wishing In Vain

    See page 7 of today’s Advocate if you care to learn more about Owing See Thru Arthur and his nasty traits in a full page paid advertisement today.


  5. it amaze me how bias people are who should be the last to ask someone to resign for causing trouble in the house as she claim. She does nothing but beat women 24 and run them all down the drive way of her house beating them. When she not locking off the neck of Owen Arthur no one kick up then. The nation and starcom keep silent on those stories .Then there was Ronald pulling a gun on Arthur ,nothing was done then either. So how comes now all of a sudden it is a member from the dlp that they claim do summin bad the blp will kick up ,we all know they are famous for crying fowl to get attention and pity,.these people are desperate to get back power and would do anything or tell lies to get the public attention.Barbadians are not stupid people and crying wolf got them out of office and will keep them out for a while .We cant have someone like Mia Mottley running this country she does not set a good example . The dlp is on the right path and i wish them all the best ,


  6. Well I for one am happy that the PM took the position he has on the MovadoKartel issue, but it took took way too long to come to a decisive conclusion. Hopefully this is just the beginning of a sustained campaign to bring back some sense of order and moral values to our society. The PM has a golden opportunity to be the man who pioneers this change.

    As far as the police top brass goes, those issues will have to be addressed internally, and I’m sure that they will.


  7. While I’m proud of the decisive way the P.M handle the Kartel/Movado issue, the Estwick/Marshall issue is much more serious and CANNOT be equated with any other matter which occured in Parliament. If it is true, this would be the first time that such a case had happened in parliament and if goes unchecked, it will give anyother M.P the RIGHT to do the same. Our Parliament would become a place to behave like in the wild wild west. I refuse to take a partisan position on this one because it is too serious a matter if what has been reported is true. I’m a BARBADIAN first and a supporter of the DLP after.


  8. Thanks to Wishing in Vain for alerting us to the full pg ad taken out by Leroy Parris on pg 7 of today’s Advocate (I hope they verified that this is authentic!) Seems like WIV had inside info though.

    The political atmosphere seems to be extremely charged at the moment, and perhaps things will get so bad, and public outrage so intense, that the politicians will be forced to reform the system. I don’t see them doing this voluntarily.


  9. @SCOUT

    Well I think that all sensible and level-headed persons agree with you on that issue Scout. Those who don’t agree really couldn’t have the best interest of this country at heart.


  10. Speaking of info, it is remarkable that the full report of the incident between Estwick and Marshall has not yet been leaked on the blogs (from what I can tell).

    My interpretation of this is that it is as serious as we suspect it is. The DLP could very easily have released the facts to prove to us that it was no big deal – the fact that they have NOT done this tells us a lot. The fact that the BLP have not released or leaked the details is surely not out of respect for the Speaker but because they will milk this for all they can. Hence the press conference and public meeting they have scheduled.

    The next few weeks should be very interesting. when is Hartley Henry’s next column due? I can’t wait to see what he will choose to write about.

  11. Wishing In Vain Avatar
    Wishing In Vain

    I fully agree with the senior people who state that had this matter been as serious as Marshall is trying to pretend that it was why then wait until three days later at a political meenting to make the incident known ?

    The right and proper course of action and Muttley, See Thru and Gale Marshall all know was that the house was still is session and it should have been reported there and then and I would have been dealt with, not my advice but the advice of very senior non DLP persons.

    This is nothing more nothing less than a PR campaign to try to obtain sympathy for the disarrayed BLP, time will tell but I can confirm that never was a gun pulled or brandished as was reported,This is simply a PR campaign that has not worked because those who were there have all written accounts of what they saw and NONE report seeing a gun in play as reported by Marshall, he is setting up for a claim the he will burn in hell waiting on.


  12. Well “Down to brass tacks” should make for interesting listening today. And for a radio station (VOB) that many claim to be partisan BLP, the call-in program is open to all to voice their opinions. I fail to see where it could be that partisan.


  13. Wishing In Vain // March 26, 2010 at 1:27 AM

    See page 7 of today’s Advocate if you care to learn more about Owing See Thru Arthur and his nasty traits in a full page paid advertisement today
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Imagine!

    Having run Ponzi Scheme just like Bernad Madoff and Allan Sanford, both of whom are now in jail – Leroy Parris could take up $5,000.00 for a page 7 – full page ad in today’s Advocate, but little old ladies who have money in Clico and are trying to get less than that $5,000.00 – cannot get a red cent.

    That is the issue.

    It is why Clico should be under judicial management. It is why it should have to sell those Mercedes and other property, just like Bernard Madoff.


  14. Wishing In Vain // March 26, 2010 at 9:41 AM

    I fully agree with the senior people who state that had this matter been as serious as Marshall is trying to pretend that it was why then wait until three days later at a political meenting to make the incident known

    +++++++++++++++++++

    That is yet another nasty-stinking DLP lie.

    The former Attorney General of Barbados – Mr. Dale Marshall, Q.C., M.P., has not spoken publicly on this matter. As I understand it – he has written to His Honour, The Speaker of the House and asked that the matter be referred to the Committee of Privilege

    It was former Prime Minister – The Rt. Hon. Owen S. Arthur, M.P., who spoke at St. Leonard’s on Sunday and said that if Estwick was in his Cabinet – he (Arthur) would have fired him.

    Mr. Dale Marshall has not spoken publicly on this matter.

    This is yet another Harley Henry lie and just like him saying that people were finger printed during world cup. That too was a nasty stinking lie.

  15. Barnabas Collins Avatar
    Barnabas Collins

    @Atman

    Agree with your assessment. It seems one is not to mention anything untoward about the government if not you are labelled a “BLP lackey” or some other cruel demeaning caricature.

    @WIV
    My brother you scare me…..if our politics have gotten to the point where we have a deepseated hatred of our political opponents then I expect future generations will find themselves in plenty trouble. And telling me that the other side does it, cannot be a reason because we voted not only for a change in the first letter of LP but a change in mood, a change in tolerance and a change in direction.

    It cannot be easy to be a leader of this country and everyone will not always agree with what a leader or a government has done but I suggest that we should be civil about our objections and if every time an incident occur you rush to cite an incident the other side was involved we will start to think about the cents in our change.

    Have a nice day

    BC


  16. Mr. Darwin Dottin – the Commissioner of Police of Barbados, is the one who should be congratulated.

    It is he who said “no to thuggery and to the same bashment/type FETES, which are being held at Illaro Court every week and by the DLP, at taxpayers’ expense.”

    The show could only have happened if permission was granted under Section 5 of the Public Order Act, Cap. 168A of the laws of Barbados.

    The only person who can give any such approval is the Commissioner of Police of Barbados – not no Prime Minister.

    This raises the issue of Bertie Hinds. Since it was known to ALL that the Commissioner had said: “NO” then who asked Bertie Hinds to say “yes” – before the PM was pressured by the society to take the lead set by Commissioner Dottin?

    The point is that the DLP was forced to say “NO” to vybes Cartel but “YES” to gun play in Parliament and “YES” to casino gambling in Barbados’ territorial waters.


  17. What was Minister Stephen Lashley’s position after this meeting?
    __________________________________________

    NationNews

    Decision day on Vybz show
    Date March 24, 2010
    Brief TODAY is decision day for the scheduled weekend show featuring controversial Jamaican dancehall artistes Mavado and Vybz Kartel.

    Confirmed reports last night indicated that the Royal Barbados Police Force will today disclose whether or not the event …

    TODAY is decision day for the scheduled weekend show featuring controversial Jamaican dancehall artistes Mavado and Vybz Kartel.

    Confirmed reports last night indicated that the Royal Barbados Police Force will today disclose whether or not the event will get the green light for licences to play loud music and to sell alcoholic beverages.

    This followed an over three-hour long meeting last night when Minister of Youth, Family and Sports Stephen Lashley heard from promoters Jack Farrell and his team of representatives as well as from members of the Barbados Youth Action Programme led by its chairman, Independent Member of Parliament Hamilton Lashley.

    The minister heard presentations from the representatives concerning the planned Friday meeting at the gymnasium of the Garfield Sobers Sports Complex where both Vybz Kartel and Mavado are scheduled to have an open session with schoolchildren from across the island, concerning their style of music and the impact it was having on the youth.

    Up to press time that meeting, which was held at the Ministry of Education’s conference centre, was still in session.

    The organisers have been arguing that the planned weekend visit by the two controversial Jamaican artistes, which would culminate with a show at the Bay Street carpark, was not mainly about financial reward but was being used as a chance for the entertainers to put at bay some of the violence which was plaguing the society.


  18. The only person who can give any such approval is the Commissioner of Police of Barbados – not no Prime Minister.
    —————————————————————————

    Is this not the case? All the PM did was to get the show organizers to agree to cancel the show.

    Wuh I could get a liquor license from the relevent authorities to hold a dutch-party (duh does still got them) and then, for whatever reason do not hold de party. chupse

    …..But I love how de PM and I seeing this alledged gun tooting thing via the same set rules.
    I have never met the man nor have been in the same room as he. wuh I can’t even recall seeing him live and direct on a politcial platform.

  19. Alex Fergusson Avatar

    @ Adrian

    The PM said that he spoke to the organizers and that: “have agreed to the revamping of both initiatives resulting in the cancellation of both events.”

    But how can you cancel that which permission was not granted by Commissioner Darwin Dottin under section 5 of the Public Order Act, Cap 168A of the laws of Barbados? Commissioner Dotting NEVER granted permission.

    The question is: is this a staged cancellation? Is all of this just a distraction tactic to get Barbadians from focussing on the economy and the fact that the DLP did badly in the Estimates debate?


  20. Commissioner Darwin Dottin under section 5 of the Public Order Act, Cap 168A of the laws of Barbados?
    —————————————————————————-
    I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

    The relevant minister can be appealed to by a show organizer if he/she is denied a permit by the C.O.P, the minister can overturn the C.O.P’s decision, and the ministers decision would be final.

    But that is not the case here.

    The substantive C.O.P was against issuing the permit. The Deputy C.O.P acting in the capacity (on behalf) of the substantive C.O.P gave permission.

    The question really should be, what does the Public Order Act say about the issuance of permits. Does it say anything like ” unless a permit has been issued by or on behalf of the Commissioner of Police”

    “is issued by or ON BEHALF OF THE COMMISSIONER OF POLICE”

    do these words appear anywhere in the Public order act? how many times? and for what purpose?


  21. DLP did badly in the Estimates debate?
    ————————————————————————
    I watch Fruendel Stuart presentation in the estimates exericse at http://www.barbadosparliament.com. He said among other things that Barbadians do not need politicians and I would add political partisans to tell them whats going on in the world. Often times people know about world events before any politician does. Such is the reality today.

    …So I watch several presentations made during the estimates exercise and I have an informed view that differs from yours. lol!

    BTW the same applies to the laws of Barbados. I can google any Barbadian law at Caricom law and get a easyly searchable .PDF file from which I can research and be informed.


  22. It should be stated that the C.O.P was not in favour of the show but had not yet denied issuance of the permit. If he had done that, Bertie Hinds could not have reverse it. The show organizer only recourse then would have been to appeal to the relevant Minister.

    So Alex do you still have a point?


  23. @Adrian Hinds: “BTW the same applies to the laws of Barbados. I can google any Barbadian law at Caricom law and get a easyly searchable .PDF file from which I can research and be informed.

    So what, then, can you tell us all about the laws with regards to guns in Barbados?

    Must they be carried at all times by their owners, or can they be left at the owner’s home under lock and key?

    A separate question: if one is walking “heavy”, do the laws require the gun owner to reveal the gun during an alteration?


  24. s/alteration/altercation/


  25. There goes that idiot (AH) again, trying to give the impression that he and the PM are of the same mind set when he isn’t even equip to lead his own shadow anywhere. He doesn’t seem to realize that the PM hasn’t as yet stated what he will or will not do regarding the matter in due course.


  26. And if the PM really happen to be of the same mindset as AH, then he definitely has to go come next election.


  27. @CH

    Adrian Hinds is a fountain of misinformation…not the type of person you would want to rely on for accurate information or sensible remarks.


  28. @Atman…

    My questions still stand.

    What do the Barbados laws say about the ownership, handling and usage of guns?

    Can anyone answer?

  29. Alex Fergusson Avatar

    The BLP wants to hold a meeting at Hero’s Square this Sunday night but the DLP, which gave two Jamaicans permission to feed smut to Barbadian children – is refusing to give permission to the BLP to use Hero’s Square – even though the Police have.

    What is it that the DLP does not want the BLP to tell the people of this country:

    (1) The state of the economy?

    (2) The David Estwick gun-play in Parliament?

    (3) The perilous state of Clico that was supposed to be sound and well managed?

    (4) That the DLP is again in bed with IMF? or

    (5) The fact that the DLP does not know what to do or what it is doing?

  30. Alex Fergusson Avatar

    Adrian said:

    “The relevant minister can be appealed to by a show organizer if he/she is denied a permit by the C.O.P, the minister can overturn the C.O.P’s decision, and the ministers decision would be final”

    +++++++++++++++++++

    This is pure hogwash. The law is the law. The only person in Barbados who can give permission to hold any event where more than 3 persons are gathered is the commissioner of Police.

    If a Public Road or Highway is involved then the CTO at ther MTW comes into play.

    Here is another point. Public liability insurance will not be granted unless police permission has been obtained.

    There is a procedure to follow. Even if the relevant Minister or authority had given permission for the use of the Stadium or other facility – you would still need Police permission to hold the event.

    The issue is – were work permits issued. Answer that question and then we’ll know if this was a staged cancellation, intended to distract attention away from the perilous state of the economy.

    I must ask: “What jackass would budget for a deficit of $214 million in a financial year but realise a deficit of $894 million, and remains in place to do more harm to the society?”


  31. Hey Chris H
    I am sure you can google the Pubilic order and firearms act of Barbados.

    I have not seen anything in either act that states a gun must be carried at all times. Maybe specifics to the firearms “carrying” is contained in the firearm license document.

    The firearms act speaks about “safe keeping of a firearm”

    as well list several scenarios as “Offenses with fire arms”

    The public order act list several “gun” related offenses of guns at public meetings etc.


  32. Wishing In Vain // March 22, 2010 at 8:50 PM

    Here we go making a mountain out of a mould hill, who knows what took place or what Dale Marshall and George Pain said to Dr Estwick or what Dr Estwick said to them ???
    ——————————————————

    Now we know that he really did pull a gun on him.:)

    What sort of hill is a mould hill or is this just another cheesey old distraction tactic ?


  33. But Alex:
    This is pure hogwash. The law is the law. The only person in Barbados who can give permission to hold any event where more than 3 persons are gathered is the commissioner of Police.

    or the person acting on behalf of the C.O.P. lol!

    Read section 38 of the public order act “appeals against refusal of application for permits”


  34. Christopher Halsall // March 26, 2010 at 3:29 PM

    My questions still stand.

    What do the Barbados laws say about the ownership, handling and usage of guns?

    Can anyone answer?
    —————————————————————————
    @Chris H

    The laws says a lot about gun ownership, handling, and usage of guns. But only YOU can attempt to apply the law to the specifics of the incident as you have understood them.
    However when you are finished you should remember that the envoirnment within which the incident is alledged to have taken place, is not govern by these laws.

    Socratic irony perhaps?

  35. Alex Fergusson Avatar

    The BLP speaks this Sunday night in Hero’s Square

    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    Ok! As regards my last post – I withdraw.

    It would seem that permission has been granted by the Ministry of Housing and Lands for the Barbados Labour Party (BLP) to hold an outdoor public meeting in National Hero’s Square, this Sunday night from 7:00 p.m., – 11:00 p.m.


  36. good for you Alex. I look forward to the BLP hammering the government. Lord knows duh deserve it. lol!


  37. @CH

    As far as I know, and which someone alluded to earlier, a licensed firearm should be kept in the possession of the owner or in a safe and secured place at the residence of the owner. Therefore, unless parliament has specific rules that restrict MPs from bringing guns unto the premises, it is not unlawful for an MP to have a licensed firearm in his possession in parliament.


  38. @AH: “Socratic irony perhaps?

    ROTFLMAO… Perhaps.


  39. This debate is really overdone now.

    It is only giving Alex Ferguson (who I understand is Henerson Bovell who works in Mia Mottley’s office) a chance to prove the point that it is possible to live without a brain.


  40. @Atman: “Therefore, unless parliament has specific rules that restrict MPs from bringing guns unto the premises, it is not unlawful for an MP to have a licensed firearm in his possession in parliament.

    You’ve only answered one of my questions.

    I previously also asked: “A separate question: if one is walking “heavy”, do the laws require the gun owner to reveal the gun during an alteration?

    But as AH correctly pointed out, the laws don’t actually apply in that chamber.

    Common sense, however, should still do.


  41. @ Alex

    The two dancehall artistes do not need work permits. Under the CSME entertainers are allowed to move freely except in instances where they maybe deemed to be a national security threat, corrupting public morals etc.


  42. CH asked:

    I previously also asked: “A separate question: if one is walking “heavy”, do the laws require the gun owner to reveal the gun during an alteration?

    ===============================================================

    Chris, without knowing what exactly the law states about revealing a gun, common sense would dictate that you do not reveal or pull your weapon unless you are about to be physically attacked. A mere exchange of angry words or threats do not warrant such action. I would expect that a place like parliament would be subject to more stringent rules of behaviour than even the general public. This is what common sense tells me.


  43. @Atman…

    I, personally, agree with your immediate about.


  44. @David

    That is correct…entertainers do not need work permits.


  45. s/about/above/

    I should learn to type slower, and review more….


  46. @Atman

    Your point earlier regarding how Thompson will respond/discipline Estwick is taken. Thompson by referencing earlier instances of mal-behaviour in the house is doing some damage control wearing his DLP hat. How he responds to Estwick will be determined by the action of the Speaker; perhaps combined with public reaction. Thompson if he is consistent is a political animal who will be inclined to side with popular opinion.

    @Royalrumble/Alex Fergusson

    We are waiting for the report which was submitted to the Speaker. It must have dropped off a truck somewhere!


  47. For the two clowns in parliament this for you

    Bad Boys! Bad boys!What yuh gonna do !
    What yuh gonna do ! When the police come fuh yuh.


  48. Vybz and Movado hmmmmmm were they recently banned from St. Vincent since it is claimed that there has been a rise in crime because of this Gaza and Gully issue?

  49. Alex Fergusson Avatar

    My Fellow Barbadians,

    DON’T BE FOOLED BY THE DEMS DOUBLE TALK –
    “DO AS I SAY AND NOT AS I DO.”

    COME AND HEAR THE REAL FACTS
    AT THE BARBADOS LABOUR PARTY’
    PUBLIC MEETING
    7.00 P.M. TO 11.00 PM
    THIS SUNDAY
    MARCH 28TH
    IN HEROES’ SQUARE, BRIDGETOWN

    POLITICAL LEADER – MIA AMOR MOTTLEY
    DALE MARSHALL
    OWEN ARTHUR
    ELIZABETH THOMPSON
    TREVOR PRESCOD
    AND
    CYNTHIA FORDE
    WILL LAY IT ON THE LINE FOR YOU

    THIS SUNDAY NIGHT
    HEROES SQUARE 7.00 P.M.

  50. Wishing In Vain Avatar
    Wishing In Vain

    Noticeably missing is the woman beater Kerrie Simmons who planned the meeting in St James Central to undermine Muttley support base further, these guys really dont get it this is not election season and they have no substance or base of support.

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