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Submitted by Cedriann Martin, UNAIDS Caribbean โ€“ Op-Ed by Dr. Ernest Massiah, UNAIDS Caribbean Regional Support Team Director

"Protests over Prof Bain's sacking in Kingston, Belize City" - Click image
“Protests over Prof Bain’s sacking in Kingston, Belize City” – Click image

Recently, the discussion on HIV has been a mix of the selective review of scientific evidence, comments on an administrative procedure at the regional university, and perceptions on the existence of agendas that seek either to change or hold back Caribbean societies. Lost in this debate is a Caribbean reality. At the end of 2012, UNAIDS estimated that there were 260,000 people living with HIV in the region.ย  In many countries, approximately one in three new cases is among men who have sex with men. How do we deal with this as we work to end the epidemic in the Caribbean?

First we must recognise that HIV is a virus, not a crime.ย  Laws that criminalise being HIV positive, sexual behaviours such as anal sex or sexual orientation, make it difficult to mount an effective HIV response.ย ย  Persons who know their sexual behaviour or orientations are illegal are less likely either to go to health services or to speak openly about their sexual behaviour while there, thus limiting their treatment options and prevention efforts.

A soon to be released UNAIDS internet survey of more than 3,500 men who have sex with men across the Caribbean, the CARIMIS study, shows that about two in three men who got a negative HIV test result from the private or public health sector, did not talk to their doctors about their sex with men. Our laws should help create an environment in which there is no impediment to delivering targeted prevention and treatment services to a population particularly affected by HIV.

There is consensus around this among leaders of the regionโ€™s HIV response. Over the last ten years, under the umbrella of the Pan Caribbean Partnership against AIDS (PANCAP), civil society, national AIDS responses and international partners have supported the goal of removing laws that criminalise sexual orientations and behaviours. The 2008 โ€“ 2012 Caribbean Regional Strategic Framework reinforced this target. This is a regional goal and a global one. It is one of the key steps that must be taken to end AIDS.

Second, we must remember that stigma and discrimination still exist.ย  It is not only the law that complicates peopleโ€™s lives; it is the prejudice that the law codifies and reinforces. The UNAIDS CARIMIS study shows that within the month before responding to the survey, almost a quarter of the men were verbally abused because of their same sex attraction. Recent surveys of doctors and nurses in two Caribbean countries show that approximately 25 percent reported seeing HIV positive persons receiving low quality medical treatment and about ten percent would rather not provide services to men who have sex with men.ย  These workers had been trained.ย  They had the clinical knowledge. What they did not have was the ability to overcome their prejudices. Until we overcome prejudice, people will not seek services and we will see a steady rise in new cases.

Sexual behaviour and sexual orientation exist in a social context in which prejudice, stigma and the fear of violence influence the behaviour of both those who seek health services and the medical professionals who offer those services. Thatโ€™s why removing criminal laws against consensual same sex sexual conduct cannot be a stand-alone strategy. UNAIDS urges all governments to implement laws to protect men who have sex with men, lesbians, bisexuals and transgender people from violence and discrimination; to address homophobia and transphobia through public education campaigns; and to ensure that adequate health services are provided to address their needs.ย  UNAIDS stands for all those living with or vulnerable to HIV, regardless of their social or legal status.

Finally, we must ensure the rights of all Caribbean citizens.ย  Caribbean history is one of a struggle to ensure the inclusion of all citizens, against a backdrop of exclusions based on race, class, ethnicity and colour.ย  The individuals who stood for the rights that we now enjoy were called names, jailed, beaten and killed. Today, those who stand up for the rights of gay, lesbian bisexual and transgendered citizens are labelled as supporting a โ€œgay agendaโ€. There is no gay agenda. There is a human rights agenda which seeks to ensure that all Caribbean citizens are treated with respect and dignity. Every individual should benefit from HIV prevention, treatment, care and support and all people should have the same human rights everywhere.

All rights are coupled with responsibility. Freedom of expression carries the burden of responsibility for the consequences of oneโ€™s speech. In Belize, Mr. Caleb Orozco, the young man who asked the court to determine whether the sodomy law violated his constitutional rights, faced verbal abuse, physical violence and death threats. The recent media coverage has led to increased threats against him.

The voices speaking for the removal of punitive and discriminatory laws are women, adolescents, gay men, public health professionals, human rights supporters, researchers, leaders in the regional HIV response, priests, pundits, and imams. These are people from different walks of life, with differing backgrounds and beliefs, united against prejudice. This is what standing up for justice and freedom should be about.ย  This is what will be required if we are to end AIDS and leave no Caribbean citizen behind.

Contact

UNAIDS Caribbean | Cedriann Martin | tel. +868 625-4955 ext. 96519 / +868 371-7195 | martinc@unaids.org

UNAIDS

UNAIDS, the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS, is an innovative United Nations partnership that leads and inspires the world in achieving universal access to HIV prevention, treatment, care and support. Learn more at unaids.org and unaidscaribbean.org

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215 responses to “HIV in the Caribbean: science, rights and justice”

  1. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    ac

    re
    witness the on going daily verbal to a level of insanity under the guise of Freedom of Speech promoting hate speech and bigotry

    SO FAR THE ONLY ONE GOING INSANE IS AC & BALAAMโ€™s ASS, but that is due to your epigenetics

    re .ac not trying to reverse anything.
    AC CANT REVERSE ANYTHING
    BULLERS & WICKERS WILL BE CALLED CORRECTLY > IT IS BULLERS & WICKERS! THIS IS WE CULTURE!

    re Ac .for all we know homosexuality might have been determined and designed by nature for population control therfore what might. seem illogical and out of step with religious doctrine can be an absolutelynorm with natures plan for population control.

    POPULATIONS ARE USUALLY CONTROLLED BY DISEASES & WARโ€ฆโ€ฆ.DO YOU HAVE INFO THAT PROVES THAT WICKING & BULLING HAS EVER CONTROLLED POPULATION? DID IT CONTROL THE POPULATION IN ROME IN ITS HAY DAY? AND DEM FELLAS USED TO BULL..

    WHAT WE DO KNOW FROM HISTORY THOUGH, IS THAT BULLING WAS INVOLVED IN THE DESTRUCTION OF CERTAIN CIVILISATIONS ah lie?
    LOOK HOW THE WICKERS & BULLERS TEKING OVER THE USA< HOLLYWOOD < EVERYTHING!

    re homosexuality would be around umtil nature decides differently ..
    TRUE. BULLING AND WICKING WILL BE AROUND UNTIL THE SECOND RESURRECTION WHEN SINNERS WILL BE JUDGED

    re even god failed im efforts to destroy and reverse..
    GOD HAS NOT FAILED IN REVERSING BULLING. HE IS WAITING TO JUDGE BULLERS AND WICKERS AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT

    re the only thing ac interested in reversing is the hate filled and bigoted speech that has become the new norm on BU

    POOR AC. YOU CAN NOT REVERSE THE CALLING OF BULLERS & WICKERS BULLERS AND WICKERS, BECAUSE THIS IS THE NATURAL NORMAL BAJAN WAY TO CALL WICKERS AND BULLERS.

    THIS IS WE CULTURE! YOU KNOW IT AND I KNOW IT! WE ALL KNOW IT

  2. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    AC
    DONT LETS FIGHT

    LETS SING ABOUT THIS THING

    SONG#1 BULLERS OF BIM ARISE AND PUT YOUR CONDOMS ON
    SONG #2 BUILLING I GO ALONG LIFES WAY
    SONG #3 DO YOU WONDER WHY I LOVE THE BULLING I WIL GLADLY TELL YOU WHY
    SONG #4 BULL & WICK BULL & WICK
    SONG #5 I HAVE RESOLVED NO LONGER TO BE BULLIN
    SONG $6 BULLIN ON THE ABC HIGHWAY
    SONG # 7 THE TRUSTING SOUL TO BULLING CLINGS

    WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO SEND YOU THE MUSIC?
    THE HYMN BOOKS HAVE IN MANY SUITABLE SONGS THAT CAN BE CONVERTED

    THE FLOWERS IN THE GARDEN SING THIER SONG
    THE BULLERS JOIN THE CHORUS ALL DAY LONG

    AC THESE ARE SONGS THAT YOU CAN USE AT A BULLIN AND WICKING RALLY IIN INDEPENDENCE SQUARE

    MY GROUP WILL SING FROM THE OTHER SIDE

    WE WILL MOCK YOU, MOCK YOU MOCK YOU

    COME AC MEK DEM TEK WAY MY WUK TOO

  3. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    RE
    Simple Simon | June 2, 2014 at 11:56 PM |
    @Georgie Porgie โ€œThere was a lawyer who found himself in trouble who recieved this advice from a man of CLASS, no other than OUR CURRENT GOVERNOR GENERAL in his chambers when he was a high court judgeโ€ฆ
    he said to the lawyer โ€ THIS IS MY ADVICE TO YOU ,, AS A BROTHER,(fellow lawyer) and as a BROTHER (a member of the DLP) and as a BROTHER (fellow lodge member) YOU HAVE TO LEAVE BOUT HERE.โ€

    But how you can know this Geeeorgie Porgie?

    Arenโ€™t conversations which take place in chambers private? And if so why woul either lawyer discuss it after exiting chambers?

    If I was an accused of wrong doing I certainly wonโ€™t walk โ€™bout discussing my matters with others.

    I may not have class, but I am not stupid.

    DID IT EVER OCCUR TO YOU THAT THERE WERE OTHER PERSONS IN CHAMBERS THAT DAY?

    DID IT EVER OCCUR TO YOU THAT THIS INFO WAS LEAKED BY SOME ONE WHO WAS THERE…AND FELT THAT THEY SHOULD TELL MANY FOLK?
    WHY NOT ASK THE GG TO DENY IT, AND BE ABSOLUTELY TRUTHFUL IN SO DOING?
    I HAVE EVERY REASON TO TRUST MY SOURCE?

    DO YOU KNOW THE LEVEL OF CORRUPTION IN THIS COUNTRY?

    IT FROM THE TOP DOWN

    JUST LIKE THE WICKIN & DE BULLIN. AH LIE?


  4. @ GP

    Doc I think that you better ease up on ac before she blows a fuse and damage whatever neurons she has upstairs. It would really be a real challenge if we had to read her comments from Jenkins in the future. Give her a break. Please.

  5. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    DE HOOD
    THIS WOMAN GOES CONTRARY TO EVERY CORRECT POSITION THAT HAS BEEN POSITED ON BU SINCE SHE HAS COME HERE CERCA 2008.

    SHE HAS ATTACKED ME FROM THE DAY SHE GOT HERE
    BUT NOW SHE DOES NOT HAVE HER HELPERS POOR THING

    I INTEND TO RUN HER RAGGED

    EVERYTIME SHE POSTS I WILL BE ON HER CASE LIKE CORNS ON POLICEMAN;S BOOTS
    I WANT HER TO BE VERY VERY CLEAR WHAT I THINK ABOUT BULLIN AND WICKIN

    THIS IS BARE FUN


  6. This should titillate all and sundry.Cant get anybody to discuss the economy so may as well add to the fun.

  7. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    Hants
    The economy is being taken care off by the DLP guvment- even though very poorly.

    And universally the economywill soon fall as predicted in Revelation 18.

    What a day that will be!
    THERE WILL BE NO MORONS IN CHARGE ANY LONGER!


  8. Hants,

    Advise that you had better be careful when you decide to mirror these dance moves. ๐Ÿ™‚


  9. GP

    There is no doubt in my mind that she, or anyone else here, would not be clear about your stance on the matter, Doc. ๐Ÿ™‚

  10. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    de hood
    Im just having fun with AC and workin de herd who want to attack me
    its bare fun


  11. @ de hood,

    At my advanced age of 62, I am well aware of my limitations so I would only be able to provide ” a prop ” for the “dancer”.


  12. first of all ac does not read any of Gp comments on this issue as i already know his comments would be the repetitive hate fill bull sh..t ..so if any one belives that ac is posting comments as to get a reaction from homophobics ..they are absoluetly wrong..my main goal is to target the minds that are infiltrated with hatred and biogrty and if my postings have an impact on one that would be one less voice of hate walking this earth…as far as Gp is concerned ..it is hard to teach a loathing disrespectful bombastic arrogant egostistical foulmouthed flaming right white self righteous pharasitic a..ss hole anything.

  13. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    ac
    ya cussing stink but you aint saying
    come and go and help the poor bullers dat getting kill pun de street in jamaica
    ac THE BULLERS STILL BULLING AND DE WICKERS STILL WICKING
    I CANT STOP DEM


  14. 10 Alarming Statistics About Gay Hate Crimes

    17% of LGBTQ citizens have been victimized by perpetrators of hate crimes within the past three years.
    75% of these hate crime victims do not report the incidents to law enforcement.
    85% of these LGBTQ victims are subject to harassment and intimidation.
    20% are threatened with bodily harm or rape.
    10% of LGBTQ hate crime victims are attacked or physically assaulted.
    13% are groped or otherwise sexually assaulted
    40% of victims fail to report because they donโ€™t realize their mistreatment constitutes a crime.
    30% of victims fail to report because they are skeptical that the police will actually pursue the matter.
    50% of the offenders are strangers below the age of 25.
    30% of the offenders are previously acquainted with their victims.

    Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/10-alarming-statistics-about-gay-hate-crimes.html#ixzz33cAOZZNo
    yet we have the christain right advising and advocating that laws be kept in place that would inflicted more pain and suffering on about 16million gay people world wide,,,,now that’s ABNORMAL

    .

  15. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    CONFLICT OF INTERESTโ€ฆ REALLY??? Features โ€” 30 May 2014
    Recently I have heard the term โ€œconflict of interestโ€ wielded like an out of control sword and to me it seems that those wielding the sword were doing so with the intent to intimidate, injure, annihilate, behead and kill. If the sword will be used, those wielding it should know what they are talking about.

    So I was on Open Your Eyes morning show and my eyes were surely opened to how, at all cost, my hosts, William and Marleni, defended the decision of UWI to unlawfully terminate Professor Bain. They couldnโ€™t even hide their bias and came wielding but since I carry the armor of truth, I did not fear. What struck me was their lack of understanding of what is a conflict of interest, the court process, and what are truly human rights. It had me thinking if two intelligent persons have missed the mark, I wonder how many more either out of ignorance or mis-information are unable to see why so many of us support Professor Bain and will stand up to defend his rights!

    Thus I thought it important this week to share some information, not expert opinion, but hard core facts based on knowledge and black and white.

    WHAT CONFLCIT OF INTEREST?

    William and Marleni said to me at different points and in different ways that Prof. Bain had to be removed because of the conflict of interest he was in. Therefore, the rationale was that said conflict was the reason for his termination. However, the UWI statement giving the reason for his dismissal stated: โ€œWhile the University recognises the right of Professor Bain to provide expert testimony in the manner he did, it has become increasingly evident that Professor Bain has lost the confidence and support of a significant sector of the community which the CHART programme is expected to reach, including the loss of his leadership status in PANCAP, thereby undermining the ability of this programme to effectively deliver on its mandate. It is for this reason that the University of the West Indies has decided to terminate the contract of Professor Bain as Director of the Regional Coordinating Unit (RCU) of the Caribbean HIV/Training (CHART) Network.โ€ [emphasis mine]

    I say, if the extremists of the MSM (men having sex with men) agenda, which is hitched on the gay-agenda, are going to convince us โ€ฆ they better get their story straight โ€ฆ oops, hope that is not offensive โ€ฆ.

    It is important to let people know and appreciate what is a conflict of interest because it has its very own legal meaning and consequences. The issue of conflict of interest is so serious that at Section 121 of the Belize Constitution it addresses the code of conduct of public officials (example: members of the National Assembly, Belize Advisory Council, Public Services Commission, Elections and Boundaries Commission, public officers).

    It is imperative that readers learn the definition of what is a conflict of interest. In my own laymanโ€™s terms I say it is when you are in some key power-position and you use that position to gain from it personally or for someone close to you. The free dictionary defines it as a: โ€œterm used to describe the situation in which a public official or fiduciary who, contrary to the obligation and absolute duty to act for the benefit of the public or a designated individual, exploits the relationship for personal benefit, typically pecuniary.โ€ http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/conflict+of+interest

    Thus my question is โ€“ what is the personal benefit Professor Bain gained from his testimony, did he get money out of it? Surely he lost more than he gained and yet he unknowingly risked it all, because he never would have imagined that the extremists were such bigots and intolerant and only talk about rights and equality but practice otherwise! Conflict of interest involves monetary gain: Prof. Bain obtained none of this, and rather he lost his job and salary.

    EXPERT WITNESS BEFORE THE COURTS

    The other issue is that my hosts clearly did not understand who was an expert witness and how they are dealt with. First and foremost, it needs to be clear that an expert witness can be called by both sides of an issue and their evidence can only be submitted with permission of the court. But more importantly, by Rule 32.8(1) of the Civil Procedure Rule (CPR), even the side that did not adduce an expert, can put questions to them. The expert can be ordered by the court on the application of the other side to produce a written expert report, be examined on the report, to file and serve the report.

    If UNIBAMโ€™s extremists really believed its own lies, that Prof. Bainโ€™s expert evidence did not tell the whole story and mis-used the studies of other researchers, then it is their highfalutin attorneys who messed up. Part 32 of our CPR is clear on how they could have introduced their own expert, refuted the expert evidence of Prof. Bain and even made Prof. Bain disclose any other pertinent information that would have helped their case, even though he was called by the defendants (Government and Churches) in this case. All the extremists crying over the expert evidence by the expert witness need to go back to their attorneys and at the same time enlighten themselves of the process by which in court the extremists could have discredited Prof. Bain.

    Now my opinion, and this is just an opinion, the reason they could not knock down Prof. Bainโ€™s expert evidence that criminalizing or decriminalizing sodomy is not synonymous with reduced incidences of HIV/AIDS, is because they could not refute the truth. Plus, if they have all the studies that indeed show how amending the sodomy laws has decreased HIV/AIDS, especially amongst men having sex with men, why didnโ€™t they bring their expert to present it? Surely such expert would have been sympathetic to their cause and gladly rally to their aid. Further, if they really want us to believe that the Lancet report was not disclosed in full, then they need to be informed by their attorneys that if Prof. Bainโ€™s side did not disclose the documents, the medical research included, UNIBAMโ€™s attorneys could have applied to the court to strike down his evidenceโ€ฆ. But that did not happen. Thus my conclusion is, it could not happen because Prof. Bainโ€™s team of attorneys fulfilled their duty to discloseโ€ฆ and so all material is before the courts.

    My take is that if UNIBAM and their smart-ass attorneys (no pun intended) wanted to go after Prof. Bain, the more credible forum would have been how they refuted and discredited his evidence in court, not how they showed the darkness of their hearts and ruthless and vindictive nature towards anyone who is not in bed with them, oops, no pun intended again!

    DOUBLE STANDARD APPLIED

    It is rather interesting that UNIBAM had the opportunity and legal muscle to use the courts to deal with Prof. Bain but did not or could not, so they felt so hurt by his great work that they needed to publicly humiliate him for daring to stand up. So when it was convenient they came to the courts to present a case against our government and laws, but that same court that they could have used to challenge the evidence of Prof. Bain was not used. I propose, therefore, that UNIBAM is not about justice, rights and equality, but about spite and might and the move against Prof. Bain is to send a message of power, dominion, supremacy and intimidation to anyone with whom they are least pleased. It did not matter that the good professor worked tirelessly to help the very men having sex with men to deal with HIV/AIDS at a time when the stigma was grave and he fought to make positive changes regional for ALL people with AIDS. There were never any complaints of discrimination or ill-treatment to these men, but rather Dr. Bernard Bulwer, his student, wrote: โ€œDr. Bain led the effort to rescue and give hope to those infected with HIV and afflicted with AIDS, which at the time were mainly MSM [men having sex with men]โ€ฆTo me it is a very sad day when this very professor Bain who gave his life โ€ฆ and life-giving therapies and programs that especially benefit some of the very people who have called for his head, is now so publicly vilified.โ€

    INTIMIDATION, BULLYING AND MONEY

    I personally view the acts by UNIBAM and its sister organizations led by US funding as a form of intimidation against our judiciaryโ€ฆ This assault on a witness is equivalent to the behavior of the street criminals who intimidate and kill witnesses so the case against them cannot be proven. I am even more concerned that this act is to bring pressure on the Chief Justice, who to date has not rendered his ruling and should be of a free and clear mind as he deliberates. If this is the intolerance towards the witness who only gave evidence, could you imagine what powers would be brought against the judge who rules against them? And remember, the men having sex with men are in government: they decide which judge gets appointed and not. They are also backed by the US Embassy, which has enough ammunition to pressure any corrupt government into getting rid of what the Prime Ministerโ€™s wife calls โ€œhomophobes.โ€ In addition, the US government, which is pushing the gay agenda, is sending the big stick in the person of their new Ambassador, who is a crusader for the gay agenda under the guise of human rights.

    UWI in its statement said: โ€œCHART is not a department of the UWI but a regional project managed by the University under a contract funded by โ€ฆ and a group of US agenciesโ€. How much more clear do they need to be for us to get the coup being carried out by the new world power and world order? CHARTโ€™s service is to โ€œtrain health workers dealing with patients and communities affected by HIV/AIDS,โ€ yet it was not the health workers who lost confidence in Prof. Bain โ€ฆ how people stretch things when they want to justify their wrongs! For those not falling within the ranks of the extremists, they can clearly see the bullying, intimidation, arrogance and air of superiority. It has been so brazen that even some guy claiming to be gay by the name of Orozco, posted the following on Facebook; โ€œWhat this case shows is an opportunity for all these individuals who hold such strong beliefs that I may disagree with, to take heedโ€ฆโ€ as he supported the termination of Professor Bain.

    Crushing Human Rights!

    The entire country and region indeed need to take heed, because the basic human right of Prof. Bain was crushed so as to promote a choice disguised as a human right. The extremists have hijacked the human-rights agenda and while nowhere in the Magna Carta or the Constitution of Belize it says that how and with whom you have sex with is a right, the whole focus is to find how to squeeze it in as a human right, to gain support and traction and eventually amend the Constitution to add a new human right. Those close to the inside of the agenda say the ultimate goal is same-sex marriages and adoption of children. But while sodomy, homosexuality, etc. is billed as a right every human has, the truth is, no true human right would contradict with other rights, but rather they would complement each other.

    If to promote MSM as a human right makes it necessary to remove a personโ€™s right to freedom of speech, freedom of conscience and right to work, then something is amiss here. Looking at Section 16 of the Belize Constitution it is unequivocal about your right not to be discriminated against based on โ€œsex, race, place of origin, political opinions, colour or creed,โ€ yet Professor Bain has been discriminated against for his โ€œpoliticalโ€ opinion in his area of expertise. As a result he has been denied his Constitutional right to work, because his job was taken away by the extremists; he has been denied his freedom of conscience and his freedom of speech. Look out! This is just the start as the extremists of the lgbt flex their muscle to silence and discriminate against anyone not towing the line.

    God bless Belize!


  16. first of all ac does not read any of Gp comments on this issue as i already know his comments would be the repetitive hate fill bull sh..t ..so if any one belives that ac is posting comments as to get a reaction from homophobics ..they are absoluetly wrong..my main goal is to target the minds that are infiltrated with hatred and biogrty and if my postings have an impact on one that would be one less voice of hate walking this earthโ€ฆas far as Gp is concerned ..it is hard to teach a self loathing disrespectful bombastic arrogant egostistical foulmouthed flaming right wing self righteous parasitic a..ss hole anything

    yeah GP i have cuss yuh back in the day and yuh know what i got plenty of that metal all stored up,,,,,anyhow on a topic as serious as this one and the implications and impact which would be carried over in future generations especially in the world where hatred and bigotry is been rooted out at the core,ac rather focused on the important and pertinent issue which would help to erase intolerance,,,,,yuh have an agenda to aggravate ..frustrate and attack,,,all with one goal in mind ,,to demean the gay community and ac would in no way give you her shoulders to stand on,, so in this case i rather pass the entrees and concentrate on the main course of the issue,,one to educate in helping to remove the stereotypical falsehoods that are attached to the gay community ..capiche,,,,,,


  17. before dr, bain accepted the job at the uwi, which from day one had put him on a collision course with the human rights of gays and the laws of god ,,he should have read matthew 6;24
    “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

  18. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    ac | June 3, 2014 at 7:01 PM |

    before dr, bain accepted the job at the uwi, which from day one had put him on a collision course with the human rights of gays and the laws of god ,,he should have read matthew 6;24

    JACKASS
    WHEN BRENDAN BEGAN TO WORK FOR UWI THERE WAS NO AIDS
    WHEN AIDS STARTED BRENDAN PIONEERED THE TREATMENT FOR THEM

    WHEN OTHERS WERE RUNNING FROM AIDS PATIENTS BRENDAN TOOK ON THEIR CARE. AND DID IT FOR 30 YEARS AND IS HIGHLY REGARDED FOR HIS WORK
    HE SERVED THE BULLERS OF JAMAICA WITH DISTINCTION

    AS FOR matthew 6;24 YOU AGAIN SHOW YOUR IGNORANCE

    COME LET US SING THE CHORUS AC….. BULL AND WICK

    BULL AND WICK
    WICK AND BULL
    THATS A HAPPY FEELING
    BULL AND WICK
    BULL AND WICK
    WICK AND BULL
    THATS A HAPPY FEELING
    BULL AND WICK BU-UL AND WI-ICK
    I WILL SEND YOU THE MUSIC TO THOSE LYRICS LOL

  19. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    there is one indisputable fact, and with all the pussyfooting around it, one can’t turn one’s back on this. The most common and highest behavioural risk in passing on HIV is anal penetrative sex, a.k.a. buggery. It is no bull: that is the truth that God loves. Last year, in America, 77 per cent of new infections were recorded among MSMs. Only 12 per cent of the men who have HIV ‘say’ they got it from vaginal sex. Given the number of persons who are on the ‘down-low’, it is reasonable to believe that the former is higher.

    The fact that MSM sexual activity is high-risk must not be hidden. People who are exploring their gay sexuality must understand their risk and take measures accordingly. It is very dangerous ground for the media spin doctors to simply normalise anal sex. No evidence exists that anti-buggery laws make MSMs have more unprotected sex. Anti-ganja laws don’t lead to lung disease from smoking.

    Of note is the ‘just get on with your life’ campaign of 2005-2006. Ironically, when the surveys were done in 2009, it was discovered that risky behaviour had increased despite the media blitz. Conclusion? The normalising of the disease made it less frightening and, thus, some persons threw caution, and latex, to the wind.

    These are serious times, and we must advise our young people, especially those who are gay, that they must know themselves and be smart.

  20. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    Last week on radio, I asked the chairman of the National AIDS Committee for the evidence that the maintenance of buggery laws “… is shown to prevent access to treatment, care and support”. As with Bain’s testimony, I could not find it. Nevertheless, the issue is that the stakeholders, holders of the stake and steak, lost confidence in Bain and pushed UWI to jettison this well-decorated hero of the fight against HIV/AIDS. While, I truly understand the position of the UWI, because pipers and tunes do correlate, there is a larger question of justifiability and fairness.

  21. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    How does it become right for members of Miridom to have the liberty to express their views and display their abominable acts yet it becomes an infringement upon their rights once someone exercises that same liberty to express an opinion contrary to theirs….

  22. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    Thank God for basic down to earth truth with no shades of gay! ๐Ÿ˜ณ Sorry, I mean gray.

    Did I tell you that here in the Province of Ontario in Canada
    the Province has announced that here are not only two genders there are six? And they have put it in writing what he other four are. And it gets worse! They have said our gender is not decided by our anatomy. ๐Ÿ™„ We are what we think and feel we are.

    This has resulted in men using womenโ€™s public washrooms and vise versa . We have ladies afraid now to go into the Ladies Room for fear of what they might find in there.
    Since same sex marriages have become legal a number of men have decided they are women and have started to undergo a โ€œchangeโ€. Likewise, a number of women have decided they are men and have also begun the โ€œchangeโ€. But before the change has been completed they have had a problem knowing which public washroom to use. Several of them have gone in where they were not welcome and have been beaten up. Some public institutions have decided to create a third washroom for these people.

    All this because people refuse to believe the Bible. Jesus said in Matthew 19:19:4 โ€œโ€ฆ โ€ฆ โ€ฆ Have ye not
    read, that he which made them in he beginning made them male and female?โ€

  23. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    I have one question for Professor Nigel Harris: You got requests from 35 organisations to remove Professor Brendan Bain from his position at CHART, but how many organisations have come out in his support so far, both here in Jamaica and across the Caribbean? Do the math and recover your legacy.

    Geoffrey Madden SAID I agree entirely with Gordon Robinson on this matter. UWI has treated Prof. Bain badly. Words alone cannot indicate how poorly Nigel Harris and his colleagues have behaved. They should hang their heads in shame, raising them only to call out ” we are unclean!!” to warn people who might have inadvertently come near to them

  24. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    The turnout at the gay party at the uptown location to celebrate the dismissal of Professor Brendan Bain was something to talk about. The high-fives and ‘you go girl’ greetings marked the event all night. Some were heard saying that the UWI “is all ours”.

    I don’t say this just because I am a sister, but the campaign to legitimise homosexuality had better be careful … It’s not laws that’s causing the spread, it’s …irresponsible behaviour of some homosexuals who need to be reined in.

  25. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    DAVID
    THIS TOPIC IS WORTHY OF A SEPARATE THREAD BECAUSE IT IS VERY TRUE

    FUNDING AGENCIES – THE NEW COLONISERS

    Published: Saturday | May 31, 2014 32 Comments
    William Aiken,
    The expert testimony given by Professor Brendan Bain, a well-respected expert in infectious diseases, was based on scientific evidence which is independently verifiable by anyone with a computer and Internet access.

    He did not distort any facts, nor did he misrepresent the truth; he did not even make a recommendation. Therefore, a conflict of interest in his continued capacity as director of CHART can only arise if that organisation’s stated mission was compromised by his factual testimony. This is clearly not the case.

    Since his contract was terminated ostensibly on the basis that his expert testimony created a conflict of interest as director of CHART, we can only assume that those requesting his dismissal would have wanted Professor Bain to distort scientific facts or misrepresent the truth in providing expert testimony to the court in Belize.

    Apparently, the scientific evidence presented by Professor Bain is an inconvenient truth, a spoiler to the hidden agenda of those asking for his dismissal.

    We keep hearing that public-health experts want buggery decriminalised because it will allow more people to come out of hiding and get tested. However, there is no empirical data to support this assertion. Why then the push to decriminalise buggery? Is there a hidden agenda here?

    It is extremely unfortunate and sad that someone who has given such distinguished and exemplary service to the UWI for decades and has taught numerous generations of medical students with distinction, myself included, has had his reputation sullied by this gratuitous controversy in his twilight years by the very institution he has served so loyally.

    Those who know Professor Bain well would describe him as a gentle giant, even-tempered in tone and non-judgemental, the very qualities which have made him so effective in caring for persons with HIV/AIDS and leading CHART.

    I recently attended the funeral service of the late Professor Norman Girvan and learnt that, among his many writings, he warned about a second wave of colonisation, not in terms of acquisition of our land mass by the powerful North, but in terms of them wanting to influence our sociocultural, environment by way of conditionalities attached to funds given to developing countries.

    Some funding agencies are hell-bent on changing Caribbean culture to align it with their own unnatural way of life. Caribbean peoples must recognise and resist this insidious threat and must insist that they be allowed to chart their own course and way of life. This may necessitate jettisoning foreign aid in some instances and toughing it out so as to maintain our collective identity and integrity.

    soft science

    We also need to beware of intellectuals who espouse a way of life under the cover of soft science and warped ethics that is foreign to Caribbean peoples and inimical to our culture and identity. Just because a practice has been adopted by our northern neighbours does not mean that it is a good fit for us.

    For example, the repeal of the buggery law, however well-intentioned it may be, would open a Pandora’s box of unintended consequences such as gay marriage and adoption of children by openly gay couples, practices that would fundamentally change the very nature of Caribbean identity and culture. Indeed, this, I believe, is the hidden agenda of those calling for Professor Bain’s dismissal.

    The University of the West Indies (UWI), with its present stance, appears to have genuflected to spurious arguments masquerading as sound public-health policy. That the UWI has treated one of its renowned public-health practitioners, a distinguished and loyal member of its own academy, in this fashion is cause for grave concern. This is a clear sign of our times.

    William Aiken is lecturer in surgery (urology), UWI, Mona.

  26. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    Unless you speak in favor of this group with this dangerous agenda you will get ousted. Very powerful lobbying around the world. Professor Bain dedicated his life’s work to AIDs and was rewarded with this. The agenda is being pushed on us by the U.S. Now every grant or loan will have some homosexual agena tied to it.
    โ€ข Celebrating the dismissal of someone who was the front man on the fight against AIDS. He who laughs last, laughs best. Hold your head high professor. You are the only winner here.
    SAD!!!! We need to ensure that these our fellow Janaicans do not dictate or divert our culture and mores. They shall not prevail. The Lord God is Almighty.

  27. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    Backward step in fight against HIV/AIDS
    Story Created: May 25, 2014 at 8:28 PM ECT
    Story Updated: May 25, 2014 at 8:28 PM ECT
    The T&TMedical Association wishes to express its disappointment with the decision by The UWI to terminate Prof Brendan Bain for statements he made while delivering expert testimony in a court in Belize. This is clearly a case of shooting the messenger!
    There is irrefutable evidence that MSMs are at a higher risk of contracting (and spreading) HIV/AIDS. As a matter of fact they were one of the four original groups to be identified as being at risk when HIV first appeared on the scene in 1981 (remember the original 4Hsโ€”homosexuals, haemophiliacs, heroin users and Haitians?) In fact we first became aware of HIV in a cluster of gay men who developed pneumocystis carni pneumonia (PCP) and then another cluster who developed Kaposiโ€™s sarcoma. This prompted the CDC in Atlanta to coin the term โ€œ4H diseaseโ€ and the press coined GRID gay related immune deficiency.
    Three decades later we know that the disease is not isolated to the gay community; however they still remain an at-risk group.
    The Medical Association in no way supports discrimination of the LGBT community and strongly advocates that all persons regardless of their sexual orientation be afforded the same respect, dignity and medical care. This however does not diminish the reality that risky sexual practices must be red-flagged just as other risky lifestyle practices like tobacco, alcohol and recreational drug use are.
    As health care practitioners it is our sworn duty to do so. The cowardly caving in by UWI to pressure from โ€œadvocacyโ€ groups that clearly wield great influence as well as control the purse strings is, we feel, a backward step in the fight against HIV/AIDS.
    Austin Trinidade
    Medical Association

  28. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    “After reading the report twice, I was amazed to see that the professor made no call for the retention of the buggery law. I clearly remember a particularly outspoken representative of a pressure group stating that Professor Bain’s support for the retention of the buggery law made his position at CHART untenable.

    However, now I realise that the professor made no statement on the retention of the buggery law. The professor has been fired for a statement he has not made!

    I am also disappointed with UWI whose representatives saw it fit to link Professor Bain’s Christian faith and his submission of the expert statement.

    Professor Bain’s report made no reference to Christian principles and no Bible verses were quoted. His report was based on research and medical facts.”

  29. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    THERE ARE SOME LOGICAL WOMEN IN JAMAICA AFTER ALL- QUITE UNLIKE AC
    The True Bain Issue
    Published: Thursday | May 29, 2014 7 Comments
    THE EDITOR, Sir:

    I feel compelled to write after reading Professor Bain’s expert report to the Belizean court. I am appalled at the faulty reporting by sections of the media and disingenuous statements made by representatives of UWI and representatives of the pressure groups who called for the firing of the professor.

    After reading the report twice, I was amazed to see that the professor made no call for the retention of the buggery law. I clearly remember a particularly outspoken representative of a pressure group stating that Professor Bain’s support for the retention of the buggery law made his position at CHART untenable. However, now I realise that the professor made no statement on the retention of the buggery law. The professor has been fired for a statement he has not made!

    I believe that much of the condemnation of Professor Bain’s testimony is due to his listing of the sexual repertoire /activities of MSMs. I believe the pressure groups know that when many Jamaicans read of these activities they will start to opine that certain activities cannot be cloaked in the idea of privacy of a bedroom but involve specific public-health and economic issues. Professor Bain worked in the trenches and, therefore, his testimony has legitimacy that even his detractors cannot deny.

    I am also disappointed with UWI whose representatives saw it fit to link Professor Bain’s Christian faith and his submission of the expert statement. Professor Bain’s report made no reference to Christian principles and no Bible verses were quoted. His report was based on research and medical facts.

    Marsha Thomas


  30. the FACT is that it really doesn’t matter at what time when aids became part of his job ,DR<BAIN having full knoweldge of the BIBLE and his interpretation and beliefs of gods law pertaining to homosexuals should have removed himself…..( in fairness to the uwi),and not remained steadfast in the role as a bonafide advocate,against hiv and for a persons;s sexual preferance,,a role which also focused on bigotry and discrimination against gays and a role he did not honor as part of the gay advocacy ,,,,,,the other areas which he did admirably performed and participated in to do with WELLNES did not exempt him from being fired,,as he openly breached a very sensitive area in his contract which included stigmatization and discrimination in his testimony…people like gp would continue to present half truths about mr ,bains firing ,,,,however his firing was not a result of his freedom to speak,,,,MR,Bain firing resulted from his intolerance to the gay life style a breached which he broke in his testimony in favour or to the best interest to the christain lobby.,

  31. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE


  32. yes it is about time people fight against the ironfisted rulers in the christain church who expects every one to believe in their dogma ,,giving no consultation or reason to those who might unbelievers ,,,it is a form of hierarchy bordering on religious communism..where the christian right is might and those who does not tow the line would suffer in eternal damnation..instead of the church heeding to calls of turning the other cheek the christain right ,,slaps those of differing beliefs on both cheeks ,,while exposing them to fear and retribution and the lack of freedom and enjoyment as they go about their daily lives,,,,,Mr. bain has lived a comfortable live without fear or retribution,,until that sad day when he felt it his duty to side with a law which is inhumane and immoral,..discouraging and not encouraging equality ,,right and just ,,and as a result mr bain now faced a community of 16 million gays who have said ENOUGH IS ENOUGH<<<< GO in PEACE MR< BAIN..the world has no room for Bigots and hate and pretenders like you,,,

  33. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    ac | June 3, 2014 at 9:32 PM |

    the FACT is that it really doesnโ€™t matter at what time when aids became part of his job ,DR<BAIN having full knoweldge of the BIBLE and his interpretation and beliefs of gods law pertaining to homosexuals should have removed himselfโ€ฆ

    I AGREE WITH YOU AC
    BRENDAN WAS STUPID TO SPEND 30 YEARS OF HIS LIFE TREATING THE BULLERS IN JAMAICA
    AFTER ALL HE WAS A HEALTH RISK TO HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN

    WE DO UNDERSTAND THAT EITHER YOU CAN NOT READ OR THAT YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND
    WE WILL SEE WHO WILL LOOK AFTER THE BULLERS IN JAMAICA NOW

    AC IS TEACHING THAT IF YOU ARE A DR WHO KNOWS GOD'S LAWS CONCERNING BULLERS THAT YOU SHOULD REMOVE YOURSELF FROM TREATING BULLERS WITH AIDS


  34. Notwithstanding Georgie Porgie’s ranting here are some nice fact sheets, statistics etc. on HIV other STD’s and MSM

    http://www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/
    Gay and bisexual men and other men who have sex with men (MSM) represent an incredibly diverse community. Gay and bisexual men have both shared and unique experiences and circumstances that affect their physical health and mental health needs as well as their ability to receive high-quality health services.
    http://www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/HIV.htm
    The overall number of new HIV cases โ€“ referred to as HIV incidence โ€“ has remained relatively stable at approximately 50,000 new cases annually. However, the number of new cases among people aged 13-29 years increased by 21 percent from 2006 to 2009. The rise in HIV incidence among young adults was fueled by a 34 percent increase in HIV infections among young gay and bisexual men.

    http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/statistics/surveillance/incidence/index.html
    HIV incidence is the estimated total number of new (total number of diagnosed and undiagnosed) HIV infections in a given period. In recent years, CDC has used new technology and methodology to more directly measure the number of new HIV infections in the United States. HIV incidence estimates are used to monitor the HIV epidemic in this country, and to guide policies and programs created to serve communities and populations most affected by HIV. HIV incidence reflects the leading edge of HIV transmission, HIV infection trends, and the impact of HIV prevention efforts.
    Overall
    Comparing 2008 to 2010, the overall estimated number of HIV infections remained stable in every age group and in all racial/ethnic groups. There were decreases among women; including African American women. However burden is still high among African Americans and men who have sex with men (MSM). There were sharp increases in youth, especially young African American MSM.


  35. GP YOU ARE A TEACHER OF FALSE TRUTHS AND MISINFORMATION>> AC DID NOT SAY THAT THE DOCTOR WHO PROFESSES A RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE IN CONTRAST TO THAT WHICH HE PRACTICE AS A PROFESSION SHOULD NOT PRACTICE THE CRAFT>> THE REALITY IS THAT IN THE CASE OF MR> BAIN>>>>THE PROBLEM ARISES WHEN ONE USES INTERPRETATION OF BIBLICAL LAW INTERJECTING IT WITH CIVIL LAW TO JUSTIFY AND DENY A PERSON HUMAN RIGHTS,,,,NO ONE HAD A PROBLEM WITH HIS PRACTICE AT THE UWI OVER THE YEARS<<BUT IT IS CLEAR THAT THE DOCTOR HAD MADE A CONSCIENTIOUS EFFORT OVER THE YEARS TO KEEP SILENT ON THE GAY LIFESTYLE EVEN THOUGH HE FELT MORALLY BOUND TO TREAT THE DISEASES AND FOR HIM THAT IS HAS FAR AS HE WOULD GO<<< AS PROVEN BY HIS TESTIMONY.


  36. AC why are you with that FAT Miscreant of a Doctor? He is the BIGGEST BIGOT we have here on BU. He is showing the world the type of God he worships, the God of intolerance, the God of Hatred and the God of Charlatans. He has certainly shown us the Noxious person he is. He is also a very lonely and unhappy human being who no one has time for. Not even his children. He has hogged most of the space here on BU for the past week. He doesn’t sleep well and does not exercise. He is probably a chronic drinker. PLEASE SHUN HIM!


  37. @islandgal “the type of God he worships, the God of intolerance, the God of Hatred and the God of Charlatans. ”

    There is but one God and he is the God of love.


  38. @Simple Simon

    You have hit the nail on the head this debate MUST be discussed in an atmosphere of love and tolerence. The animus generated from Christian and non Christian bashing will not make better.


  39. Simple Simon:
    Your facts are agreeing with GP!!!


  40. “There is but one God and he is the God of love.’

    Say who???? Prove it!


  41. but David u should be the last one to be talking or suggesting what comments or input should be said on this ..nowsubject..after all u sat around for rhe past week and a half and all but condone in silence …allowing Bu to be a vehicle of rabid bigoted gay bashing byGP….now u trying to be peace maker..the nerve and hypocricy..hush do

  42. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    i sleep lots of hours per day and night
    i do not and have never started drinking
    but i sing and write songs like
    LIKE AC IS A WICKER AND SHE LIKES TO BICKER

    I AM WRITING SONGS FOR GAY RALLIESS

    WE ARE HAPPY PEOPLE WE ARE GAY GAY GAY
    WE LIKE TO BULL AND WICK AND DO IT ALL DAY
    BULLING AND WICKING IS THE WAY WE LIVE
    BULLING AND WICKING IS WHAT WE HAVE TO GIVE

    THIS IS BARE FUN

  43. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    Simple Simon | June 4, 2014 at 7:13 AM |
    There is but one God and he is the God of love.

    MY BIBLE TEACHES THAT HE IS ALSO A GOD OF JUDGEMENT
    MY BIBLE TEACHES IN ROMANS ONE THAT HE GAVE THE WICKERS AND BULLERS UP TO A REPROBATE MIND AND THAT HE GAVE THEM OVER TO DO THINGS THAT ARE UNSEEMLY

    Romans 1:24
    Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

  44. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    sIMPLE sIMON

    IT IS WRITTEN IN REVELATION 20 ABOUT JUDGEMENT
    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

  45. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    AC THE BICKER WICKER
    YOU EITHER CAN NOT READ OR DO NOT READ

    RE THE REALITY IS THAT IN THE CASE OF MR> BAIN>>>>THE PROBLEM ARISES WHEN ONE USES INTERPRETATION OF BIBLICAL LAW INTERJECTING IT WITH CIVIL LAW TO JUSTIFY AND DENY A PERSON HUMAN RIGHTS,,,,

    if you read his submission to the court you will find that he does no such thing
    he never gave a reccoMmendation to the court
    he never gave a Biblical reference
    he never stated any Biblical laws

    NO ONE HAD A PROBLEM WITH HIS PRACTICE AT THE UWI OVER THE YEARS<<BUT IT IS CLEAR THAT THE DOCTOR HAD MADE A CONSCIENTIOUS EFFORT OVER THE YEARS TO KEEP SILENT ON THE GAY LIFESTYLE EVEN THOUGH HE FELT MORALLY BOUND TO TREAT THE DISEASES AND FOR HIM THAT IS HAS FAR AS HE WOULD GO<<< AS PROVEN BY HIS TESTIMONY.

    you are judgeing the man without the facts just as you all cal me names and surmise who i am without the facts

    he was not morally bound to treat the BULLERS in jamaica for 30 years

    many others shun theM

    you have been trying to reduce a man that is a HERO TO A ZERO
    BUT THE WHOLE CARRIBEAN HAS COME OUT IN SUPPORT FOR THIS MAN WHO WAS TOO STUPID TO GIVE 30 YEARS OF HIS LIFE TREATING THE JAMAICAN BULLERS

    I HAVE BEEN READING STATEMENTS FROM FOLK IN BELIZE DOMINICA TRINIDAD ST LUCIA ETC

    IT IS ONLY IN BARBADOS AND ON BU THAT THERE IS NO SUPPORT FOR PROF BAIN


  46. @AC

    It seems to me that David picks when to intervene. Don’t be afraid of georgie porgie he reminds me of the calypsonian by that name.

    It is quite ironic that porgie did not read my first submission on this topic carefully, when I stated that professor bain should sue uwi, I believe that he has a very good case. we will wait and see. professor bain is a gentleman and measure what he has to say carefully, and I believe that uwi will offer a public apology for damaging his reputation. By the way I received some training from professor bain and was very impressed by his caring nature, when I saw the hard copy of the letter from uwi rationalizing the termination of his contract I said to my self this is not the nature of the man, I await further developments on this issue,


  47. Simple Simon
    I believe you are from the northern parishes. What’s the scoop on the recent mutilation and murder of a man from St.Lucy? Rumour has it that a certain group does not take kindly to defectors.

  48. GEORGIE PORGIE Avatar
    GEORGIE PORGIE

    MOE
    ARE YOU SAYING THAT A BULLER WAS KILLED BY ANOTHER BULLER IN BIM? MURDAH WUH LOSS

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