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Israel Versus Palestine, Seems Like Total Destruction No Solution

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The six-ship convoy had set out to carry 10,000 tonnes of aid from Cyprus to Gaza, despite repeated Israeli warnings that it would not be allowed to reach the territory

The video shows the Israeli soldiers descending to the ship. The video also shows some passengers on the ship brandishing sword like weapons. The Israeli government claims the ships were warned not to approach its territory. The organizers of the flotilla left the coast of Cyprus on Sunday and is reported to have been boarded by the Israeli while in international waters.

We all know the answer how this conflict will end. The nuclear outfitted Israel with support from the globe’s only military superpower the United States will have its way. When will it end? Well it seems like total destruction no solution.

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635 responses to “Israel Versus Palestine, Seems Like Total Destruction No Solution”

  1. David Avatar
    David

    @Not Saved

    We can debate the definition of force. Consider the Israeli definition.

  2. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @D: “Rolling the videotape, which starts with the first soldiers rappelling down and before there is any fusillade of pistol shots — i.e. it makes plain who started what happened…

    You are joking, right? You assume we’re all stupid, right?

    Soldiers (heavily armed) are rappelling down a rope suspended from a helicopter, and you dare to speak about proportional response?

    I ask you again — just how many died on each side?

  3. David Avatar
    David

    @David,

    “If you feed the enemy well and they get stronger then what?”

    But David, if Gaza is “enemy” territory and Israel hold effective control over the enemy territory, they are bound by the 4th Geneva convention. That makes the economic warfare a war crime.

    Ironic here David, that the “amoral” atheist finds himself arguing the moral position rather than merely the pragmatic or the legal, no?

    Good point and this is why rational explanations will not suffice when debating this issue.

  4. Dictionary Avatar
    Dictionary

    P4S: Onlookers, I already documented above that in 2001, the no 2 man in Iran — teh president is the tool of he guardians — announced on Al Qods [= Jerusalem Day] a sufficiently menacing threat to wipe out Israel with nukes. Subsequent to that various Iranian leaders and official organs of he state — including he current president and the official translators who found “wiped off the map” a reasonable idiomatic dynamic equivalent translation or rendering of his words in 2005 that went before the UNSC — have acted and spoken consistent with that threat. That is why Iran’s sanctions level just went up and it is why Saudi Arabia and Egypt are now quietly cooperating with Israel: SA is talking allowing overflight, and E has allowed open use of the Suez canal by Israeli subs set up to mount cruise missiles. So the pretense that there is no serious threat is simply even more revealing on the underlying ill-rooted hostility to the Jewish state that is now increasingly indelibly staining BU.

  5. J Avatar
    J

    There are NO chosen people.

    Now if only we could make policy based on this FACT.

  6. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @BU.David: “Good point and this is why rational explanations will not suffice when debating this issue.

    So what do you suggest instead David?

    Irrational explications?

  7. David Avatar
    David

    @Chris

    BU has already stated that dispute handling will not do. This matter will be settled by the shedding of blood at some point. The cold truth man.

  8. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @David: “BU has already stated that dispute handling will not do. This matter will be settled by the shedding of blood at some point. The cold truth man.

    The cold truth, according to whom?

    And how, if I may please ask, does BU (importantly, not the BU Family) *know* this?

    Simple questions…

    I hope for simple answers….

  9. David Avatar
    David

    @Chris

    Check this map out and try convincing anyone that Israel would feel comfortable it its skin allowing Arab Settlements to take root. This is not meant to take sides, only to be coldly logical.

  10. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @David… Wow… Heavy…

    So then my question becomes…

    Did the victors of the Second World War do anyone any favours in giving Israel a “home land”?

    Or did they simply ensure that war would continue for the next 100+ years?

  11. David Avatar
    David

    @Chris

    Why are you asking these questions to a lowly blogger?

    What the hell does BU know about this never ending saga?

    Maybe just maybe the British became tired of keeping the Jews in Europe under lock and key and acceded to their majority wish they wanted to migrate to Palestine.

  12. Straight talk Avatar
    Straight talk

    So Dictionary,

    After all your pained admonitions re; our fallacious and ill informed blogging, you yourself construct a straw man to cover your lies.
    Then introduce the red herring of Saudi Arabia and top it all off with an ad hominem about some of us besmirching BU.

    All three, of what you so readily accuse others of, in one rambling paragraph.

    The height of hypocrisy we have come to expect from the holier than though crew.

  13. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    BT
    I want you to know that I belong to no organization of doctors and represent NO doctors anywhere.

    I can, however, share some of the protocols whereby doctors operate.

    Now the scriptures teaches that God chose Abraham and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldees to set up a
    special people.”

    The scriptures repeatedly teaches that God promised them severe punishment for disobeying him, including two evictions from land which he promised them unconditionally.

    The scriptures indicate that God has kept those prophesies and many others. Even up to now they are under going the punishments related to the prophecies that are given in the OT in this regard.

    In Romans 2 Paul teaches that God has dealt/deals with the Jews because of their ACTIONS, their ATTITUDES & their ADVANTAGE. There you will read that despite having the oracles, the promises etc they failed miserably, and that they having been chosen or having had all these things the law, the oracles etc God has dealt with them severely.

    We might think not, but the evidence supports that the Jews have not gotten away with the atrocities of the past, nor are they even now enjoying a free pass due to their continued unbelief.

    The situation by the Germans in the last world war is well documented.

    Surely there is much that we do not know or understand.

    For a change, you make some sense when you say that having chosen” a set of people for his own specific reference, he could reasonably be expected to reserve to himself any rights to their discipline, reward, chastisement etc. After all, who knows what unusual stresses and strains may have been applied in the course of his ‘consultations’ with this people.” I hope you can get this through to others.

    According to my understanding of the Bible, and according to what I have read by the scholars, none of us believe that the Jews, though considered ‘chosen ones’ are beyond reproach. On the contrary, the scriptures clearly teach that the Jews have been punished and continues to be punished because they failed to be role models of righteousness – (Lights to the world). This is repeatedly recorded in Holy Scriptures, and can not be refuted.

    Not only is it true that no mortal can decide to discipline ‘the Lord’s anointed’, one should leave their discipline to God. Emotional irrational chit chat will not influence this discipline one iota.

    No sane sound serious student of the scriptures believe that that ‘having been chosen, one’s fruit does NOT matter’, because such believers know differently from what they read in the Word and from their personal experiences. It is written in 1 Corinthians that some believers even DIE for thier sin and some are ill
    .
    The Bushman can say what he likes, when he likes and as long as he likes, but FORTUNATELY for us all, God is the judge of all men, and he KNOWS ALL THE FACTS, and he does not adjudicate without having ALL OF THE FACTS.

    Getting back to Israel, there are several promises concerning the place of Israel in the millennium with respect to the true children which have not yet been fulfilled. BU Israel bashers can rant and rave, but these promises will be fulfilled just as all the other promises concerning Israel have been fulfilled, whether BU Israel bashers like it or not. God will deal with Israel and the BU Trinity in his time. And he wont we using Bushtea to do so. Ah lie?

  14. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ GP (in reference to the bushman…)
    “For a change, you make some sense…..”
    ***************************************************
    Ha ha ha LOL. Thank you Doc, that must have been difficult for a Crumpton Street man to admit!!! The bushman will try to make some sense again -sometime soon… ROTFL

    I continue to be amazed at your ability to agree with everything that the bushman says point by point – only to conclude that you were right all along…..

    Man GP, there are so many things that you do not yet understand that it is painful.

    You would do well to listen to others sometimes – like for example some of the things that Terence has been saying (emphasis on ‘SOME’…LOL)
    …for example, Do you really understand the significance of the birth, life and death of Jesus in respect of the promises to the ‘descendants of Abraham’?

    Who exactly do you think are the present ‘chosen ones’ who have been specially selected and who are expected to be the ‘light of this world’? … you really think that ‘Anno Domini’ these ‘special persons’ continue to be a bunch of mixed up warriors provocatively perched between a sea of natural enemies in Palestine?

    If you do, then your understanding may be even worse that the bushman thought…..

  15. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Re Do you really understand the significance of the birth, life and death of Jesus in respect of the promises to the ‘descendants of Abraham’?

    YES I am very very clear about the Abrahamic covenant.

    Do you believe that the OT scriptures that relate to Israel are true?

    Are you saying that I have to identify who God promises to bless in the Millenium.

  16. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @BU.David: “What the hell does BU know about this never ending saga?

    IMHO, rather a cowardice response from a Man and a Blog of such importance…

    Considering how freely you’re willing to bring forward the debate….

  17. David Avatar
    David

    @Chris

    You conveniently left off the last piece of the comment to which you referred?

    Is this the same matter that has occupied Secretary of States the likes of Henry Kissenger, George Shultz, Cyrus Vance, Albright, Colin Powell to name a few?

    Despite the decorated lot named above can you say we have come any nearer to a solution?

    Give BU a break man!

  18. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @David: Give BU a break man!

    Never.

    You step forward to claim to stand beside the great men who have fought for freedom of speech and freedom of expression, while you support small men…

    Then you run away when it gets “hot”.

    Hmmmm….

  19. David Avatar
    David

    @Chris

    Who is running, BU has stated the ME is a hard nut to crack, its that simple.

  20. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    D,

    So many words, but only regurgitation. No questions answered. Are you unable or simply refuse?

    Great descriptions of how the IDF killed their “attackers”. How about some descriptions of what would happen had they not boarded at all?

    Shall I repeat…

    – Was boarding by IDF soldiers the only option ? was the killing of civilians necessary to stop an unarmed ship loaded with cement?

    – Where are the videos of the IDF soldiers killing in self defence?

    – If Israel has a legal blockade on Gaza, is Gaza an occupied territory?

    – If the purpose of the blockade is to prevent arms, why is the health of Gaza civilians being threatened?

    – Why is a difference of legal opinion “slander”?

    Here is another,

    – Why are criticisms of the Israeli government anti semitic?

    And you failed completely to meet the charge of slander by Straight talk. You just regurgitated the same response which has been found wanting.

    Your claim…

    “if you do not know that consistently the current president of Iran has threatened genocide”

    To which ST responded….

    “By the way are you still compiling the list of the president’s consistent threats of genocide, or do you now admit you attempted to mislead the blog?”

    We are still waiting for the list.

    And from the man who condemned…

    “the tactic of going to ever wider circles of hostility laced strawmannised accusations simply shows the uncivil pattern of distraction, distortion, demonisation and polarisation ”

    we have…..

    “So the pretense that there is no serious threat is simply even more revealing on the underlying ill-rooted hostility to the Jewish state that is now increasingly indelibly staining BU.”

    Let me break it down…

    “pretense there is no serious threat”——> STRAWMAN

    “ill-rooted hostility to the Jewish state that is now increasingly indelibly staining BU.” ——> DISTORTION, DEMONISATION AND POLARISATION.

    There is no one that I can think of that has come to this blog and hurled more abusive comments to fellow bloggers than YOU.

  21. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    “Writer Edda Manga said five of the activists died directly while the rest died because they were denied medical treatment.[96] Egyptian MP Hazem Farouq,[97] British activist Sarah Colborne,[98] Turkish activist Nilüfer Ören,[99] Al-Jazeera cameraman Issam Zaatar,[97] and Turkish author Sinan Albayrak[100] were also among those who confirmed in their statements that the Israeli soldiers did not allow the critically wounded to receive medical assistance.”

    ++++

    D, any comment?

    Why did this “injustice” not move you to comment?

  22. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    D,

    “There simply was no massacre at Jenin, despite what a patently and consistently biased UN would have liked to find; but did not.”

    Why would the UN have liked to find a massacre at Jenin?

    Is the UN anti semitic?

  23. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    D,

    If the IDF had sunk the “blockade runner” would you be here defending the act?

  24. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @BU.David: “BU has stated the ME is a hard nut to crack, its that simple.

    Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

  25. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    David,

    I thought this little extract from the wiki made for interesting reading in light of the current events.

    “Additionally, unlike a force of tanks and trucks, the Soviets could not claim that cargo aircraft were some sort of military threat. In the face of unarmed aircraft refusing to turn around, the only way to enforce the blockade would have been to shoot them down. An airlift would force the Soviet Union into the position of either taking military action, in a morally reprehensible fashion, breaking their own agreements, or else to back down.”

  26. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    D quotes selectively from the San Remo manual.

    He may not like this clause:

    102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:

    (a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or
    (b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.

    The relevant clause is 102 (b).

    This extract from the wiki is relevant

    “A UN Fact Finding mission lead by South African Judge Richard Goldstone suggested that the blockade was a war crime and possibly a crime against humanity:

    “Israeli acts that deprive Palestinians in the Gaza Strip of their means of subsistence, employment, housing and water, that deny their freedom of movement and their right to leave and enter their own country, that limit their rights to access a court of law and an effective remedy, could lead a competent court to find that the crime of persecution, a crime against humanity, has been committed.”[8] The Goldstone report recommended that the matter be referred to the International Criminal Court if the situation has not improved in six months. ”

    In May 2010, the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs stated that the formal economy in Gaza has collapsed since the imposition of the blockade.[94]

  27. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    David,

    As you can see the legality of the blockade is not the ‘open and shut’ case D would have us believe. Clause 102(b) may well apply.

    You will note that he has spared us no details in justifying the actions of the IDF implicit the legality of the blockade but has given little in justification of its implementation in the first place.

    It should be clear to “onlookers” that an informed opinion claiming the blockade is illegal is neither “slander” nor antisemitic.

  28. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    This is timely…

    http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/13/israel.gaza.closure/index.html?hpt=T1

    “(CNN) — A report released Monday by the International Committee of the Red Cross is calling on Israel to lift a 3-year-old blockade against Gaza, saying “the closure is having a devastating impact on the 1.5 million people” who live in the Palestinian territory.”

    ++++

    D, is the ICRC antisemitic? biased? or should we conclude on the basis of this report that the blockade violates 102(b) of the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea.

    (Please note that section 103 applies only to a legal blockade in place. Section 102 can stop a blockade from being declared in the first place )

  29. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    I would love for someone to explain how a lowly Technician from CH CH becomes a Jihadist.
    Care to explain this label Mr.Dictionary ?
    …And you talk about distortions and strawmen….stupse!!

  30. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Tech,

    I trust you recall on a previous blog when you referred to as a “jihadi”

  31. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    ……[were] referred to…….

  32. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    D has told us………

    “It is now quite plain from testimony of ships officers etc that some 75 operatives boarded the ship Mavi Marmara in Istanbul…………….These men formed a “security” unit, and when the ship was intercepted, they resorted to the use of cold weapons in a life threatening fashion

    ………,,, the “security” men seem to have an interesting provenance: training and involvement with al Qaeda in Iraq and Afghanistan.”

    But this report seems inconsistent with that claim….

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-transfers-hundreds-of-gaza-flotilla-activists-to-airport-for-deportation-1.293634

    “All 680 activists to be released on Wednesday”

  33. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Dictionary, Oct 27, 4:48am

    2] re Technician:

    This commenter is plainly either a jihadist himself or a fellow traveller.

  34. Kiki Avatar
    Kiki

    8)
    Simple Simon –
    Revolutionary Fighters

  35. Kiki Avatar
    Kiki

    8)

    the bingy man
    the bobo man
    the rasta man
    give praise to the higher one
    (x2)
    the king of kings
    the lord of lords
    conquering lion of the tribe of judah
    the root of king david
    elect of jah
    our living jah
    earth rightful ruler

  36. Kiki Avatar
    Kiki

    8) King Tubby’s Prophesy of Dub
    Yabby You & King Tubby –Conquering Dub –
    Conquering Dub

    god’s favourite people and bouncebackability:
    you can never keep jah people down
    they will always bounce back again

  37. Dictionary Avatar
    Dictionary

    Onlookers:

    You will search in vain above for any serious engagement of facts in evidence such as the relevant videos, which show that the blockade runners attacked the intercepting IDF soldiers murderously with deadly instruments as soon as they descended to enforce the blockade once the flotilla’s ships had made it plain that they refused the reasonable request that the ships simply go to Ashdod, where the cargoes could be inspected for contraband — as has been intercepted in some previous cases — and whence the legitimate humanitarian supplies would join the 15,000 tons of such supplies per week that normally cross into Gaza by truck from Israel.

    (And yes, there is no mass starvation or the like in Gaza, no humanitarian crisis, though there is indubitable hardship, especially for non-supporters of Hamas. So Clause 102 etc are irrelevant; I have not cited selectively and dishonestly. And the blockade beyond reasonable dispute is against weapons, precursors to weapons, and dual use items; and it has been jointly maintained by Israel and an Arab country, Egypt. An Egypt that lost a president to assassination by the parent organisation to Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood.)

    Indeed, having taken control of the six ships — and note it is on only one ship that here was the sort of violent encounter seen in the videos — the Israelis offloaded the cargo such as was found and transhipped the humanitarian supplies to Gaza. They were refused entry on propaganda grounds, and are now in storage.

    Now, too, instead of a serious addressing of the relevant facts — check out the studious ignoring of what Mr Abbas, president of the Palestinian Authority, has had to say before a forum of the Brookings Institution — we can see above how I am slanderously accused of lying.

    This tells us much about the mentality at work: the fallacy of the closed, hostile mind.

    And, the tolerance for such abusive commentary does not speak well of BU.

    Good day

    Dictionary.

  38. Dictionary Avatar
    Dictionary

    F/N: I think Clifford May has some very relevant points to tell us about what is going on. Sobering words that we would do well to heed:

    _____________________

    >>Townhall
    Thursday, June 10, 2010

    Beyond Bigotry
    by Cliff May

    Israel is at war and were Israel to be defeated much of the world would not shed wet tears. What would happen after such a defeat? No one can seriously doubt that Hamas has genocidal intentions.

    Abdallah Jarbu, Hamas’ Deputy Minister of Religion, recently asserted that Jews “want to present themselves to the world as if they have rights, but, in fact, they are foreign bacteria — a microbe unparalleled in the world.” Jarbu then offered this prayer: “May He annihilate this filthy people who have neither religion nor conscience.”

    Jarbu is restating what Hamas’ Iranian sponsors have been saying for years. Kayhan, the newspaper that speaks for Iranian Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, recently called Israel a “cancerous tumor” that must be excised from “the Islamic Middle East.” The goal, Kayhan added, must be Israel’s “total annihilation from the political geography of the region.”

    Let’s stipulate that not all those who support the Gaza “Freedom Flotilla” would welcome a second Holocaust. But let’s acknowledge, too, that those who do not endorse genocide feel it unnecessary to distance themselves from those who do.

    The American journalist, Helen Thomas, was videotaped last week saying that Israelis should return to “Germany and Poland.” What was shocking here is not Thomas’ anti-Semitism (long well-known) but that she was echoing, with just a tad more subtlety, the message radioed last week from the flotilla’s Turkish flagship to the Israelis: “Shut up, go back to Auschwitz.” There also was this pro-terrorism message: “We’re helping Arabs go against the U.S., don’t forget 9/11”.

    Despite such evidence, most media have been reporting that those aboard the flotilla were on a “humanitarian mission,” attempting to deliver needed aid. Few have mentioned that Palestinians already are the largest per capita recipients of foreign aid in the world. Israel itself delivers as much as 15,000 tons of aid to Gazans every week. . . . .

    A Washington Post reporter in Gaza last week noted that “grocery stores are stocked wall-to-wall with everything from fresh Israeli yogurts and hummus to Cocoa Puffs. Pharmacies look as well-supplied as a typical Rite Aid in the United States.”

    The reporter added, however, that Gaza has become “a mini-welfare state.” That indicates that what is needed is not relief but development – not shiploads of free food but paying jobs. And that, in turn, requires investment in factories, businesses and agriculture. Gaza lacks such investment because it is ruled by Hamas which, again, is at war with Israel. Hamas leaders reject any and all steps that might lead to peace. Abdallah Jarbu has laid out the Hamas position clearly: “I condemn whoever believes in normalizing relations with [Israelis], whoever supports sitting down with them, and whoever believes that they are human beings. They are not human beings. They are not people.”

    One of the flotilla’s organizers, Greta Berlin, a 68-year-old American with a background in theater and communications, was candid enough to acknowledge that the flotilla’s primary purpose was not to deliver aid but to stop Israel from inspecting cargo heading for Gaza. Israel does that in order to reduce the number of missiles, explosives and other weapons Hamas receives. In other words, Berlin wants to increase Hamas’ ability to wage war against Israel – knowing that more Israelis and more Palestinians will be killed as a result. “War is peace,” George Orwell wrote in “1984.” In 2010, war activists are peace activists. Actually, it’s worse: Even arms smugglers are peace activists – so long as they are smuggling arms to be used to murder Israelis.

    Ah, but the root cause of this conflict is Israeli “occupation,” isn’t it? Except that the conflict began long before Egypt, Jordan and Israel’s other Arab neighbors launched a war intended to wipe Israel off the map in 1967. [This is strictly correct: a strangling blockade and ring of Iron that forced Israel to mobilise and grind its economy to a halt in May 1967] That led to Israel taking Gaza from Egypt and the West Bank from Jordan. Never in history had these “Palestinian territories” been ruled by Palestinian Arabs.

    Five years ago, Israel withdrew from Gaza — every soldier and farmer, leaving behind only productive greenhouses, which Gazans soon destroyed. Had they not done so, Gazans could now be exporting food rather than importing missiles.

    Note, too, that on the West Bank, where Israel’s security forces work quietly with those of the Palestinian Authority, the economy is booming. At 7 percent, the annual economic growth rate is among the highest in the world. [Cf Mr Abbas’ recent remarks as already cited twice in the thread above.]

    Do such facts matter? The fever of anti-Israelism seems to be rising too fast to be reduced by the cold compress of truth. Jew-hatred is increasingly acceptable, even fashionable, not just in the Middle East but in Europe and in some of America’s finer salons – and journals and blogs — as well. And now, apparently, interest in a “final solution” – to borrow Hitler’s apt phrase – is emerging as well. Helen Thomas’ sudden retirement is unlikely to significantly slow that trend.

    The quaint idea that, having learned the lessons of the Holocaust, civilized people would “never again” tolerate genocide has become a cruel joke — one repeated in Cambodia, Kurdistan, Rwanda, the Balkans, Darfur and beyond.

    Radical anti-Semites of the 20th century had a goal: the extermination of Europe’s Jews. Radical anti-Semites of the 21st century also have a goal: the extermination of the Middle East’s Jewish state. Opposing the former is so much less demanding than opposing the latter. >>

    ________________________

    Words to the wise.

    And with un-apologised for slanders and false accusations being tossed around as though they were cogent responses, BU has now descended into outright incivility.

    Barbados, is this the way you wish to project your nation to the world?

    As the old J’can saying went: “de higher monkey climb, de more ‘im expose ‘imself.”

    Good day.

    D

  39. Dictionary Avatar
    Dictionary

    Kicking a bit more into play, to open up room for serious thinking. Commentary picks up on Abbas’ remarks before the Brookings Institution:

    __________________

    >> Commentary

    A New Abbas?
    David Hazony – 06.13.2010 – 12:53 PM

    Mahmoud Abbas, the chairman of the Palestinian Authority and presumptive world representative of the Palestinian cause, has been making life difficult for those who make attacking Israel an axiom for their activism. The Jerusalem Post reported that, at a luncheon at Washington’s Brookings Institution last week, Abbas crossed a number of rhetorical red lines that have become the foundations of the anti-Israel narrative.

    One: “Nobody denies the Jewish history in the Middle East. A third of our holy Koran talks about the Jews in the Middle East, in this area. Nobody from our side at least denies that the Jews were in Palestine.” Nobody, of course, except for Helen Thomas, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh, and countless activists who speak of the entire state of Israel, not just the post-1967 territories, as an “occupation.”

    Two: he recognizes “West Jerusalem” as the “capital of Israel.” This is rather bold, considering that even the U.S. State Department doesn’t recognize Western Jerusalem as a part of Israel at all, much less its capital. [I think the writer is wrong here, I think it is recognised that the W part of Jerusalem is on the Israeli controlled side of the old Green line.]

    Three: Abbas stated that the goal of negotiations would be an absolute end to the conflict, so that there would be “no more demands” — something that sounds obvious but has forever eluded the public Palestinian discourse, keeping Israeli suspicions high that the Palestinians are not remotely interested in ending the conflict.

    Four: he conceded that there is anti-Israel incitement on the Palestinian side and that such could be resolved through an agreed-upon monitoring committee.

    Five: he allowed for the possibility of an agreed solution that included an international force, even NATO, occupying the Palestinian territories, at least for a few years — opening the door, perhaps, for meeting Israel’s demand that the Palestinian state be demilitarized.

    Yet the biggest zinger from Abbas appears in today’s Haaretz. According to the report, he told President Barack Obama that he opposes lifting Israel’s naval blockade of the Gaza Strip — a position shared with the Egyptian government, as well. This, of course, not only justifies Israel’s enforcement of the blockade during the flotilla mess (regardless of whether the tactics were prudent) but it also implies that the blockade itself is precisely right. This is truly remarkable, for it drastically undermines the justification for the entire flotilla and puts Turkey and other supporters in the awkward position of having to explain why, exactly, they have been so excited about it in the first place. (It would have been nice if Abbas had said so before the boats launched, but I suppose you can’t have everything.)

    Certainly many people will dismiss his comments as the sudden spin of a politician worried about losing his place in the international arena. And obviously his concessions here, assuming he holds on to them, do not mean an immediate breakthrough to peace: you still have the massive problem of dismantling the Hamas government in Gaza (without which there cannot be peace) and coming to agreements on the refugees and Jerusalem. Yet one wonders why these statements have largely been ignored by the major Western media. Is it because, perhaps, that it doesn’t fit well with the current climate of radically de-legitimizing the Jewish state and its right to defend itself? >>
    ____________________

    More words for the wise. Egypt has co-sponsored the anti-weapons blockade, and the Palestinian Authority now supports it. Maybe this should tell us there is a good reason for it?

  40. Dictionary Avatar
    Dictionary

    That Haaretz report, excerpts:

    ___________________

    >> Haaretz
    June 13, 2010
    By Barak Ravid

    Abbas to Obama: I’m against lifting the Gaza naval blockade

    The Palestinian president reportedly told Obama that lifting the naval blockade of Gaza would bolster Hamas, a move that shouldn’t be done at this stage.

    Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is opposed to lifting the naval blockade of the Gaza Strip because this would bolster Hamas, according to what he told United States President Barack Obama during their meeting at the White House Wednesday. Egypt also supports this position . . . .

    The issue of the Gaza flotilla and lifting the Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip was the main topic of discussion between Obama and Abbas last Wednesday night.

    European diplomats updated by the White House on the talks said that Abbas had stressed to Obama the need of opening the border crossings into the Gaza Strip and the easing of the siege, but only in ways that do not bolster Hamas.

    One of the points that Abbas raised is that the naval blockade imposed by Israel on the Strip should not be lifted at this stage. The European diplomats said Egypt has made it clear to Israel, the U.S and the European Union that it is also opposes the lifting of the naval blockade because of the difficulty in inspecting the ships that would enter and leave the Gaza port.

    Abbas told Obama that actions easing the blockage should be done with care and undertaken gradually so it will not be construed as a victory for Hamas. The Palestinian leader also stressed that the population in the Gaza Strip must be supported, and that pressure should be brought to bear on Israel to allow more goods, humanitarian assistance and building materials for reconstruction. Abbas, however, said this added aid can be done by opening land crossings and other steps that do not include the lifting of the naval blockade . . . >>

    _____________________

    In short, there is a lot more to the situation than meets the casual eye, or the eye blinded by artfully stirred up rage.

    For instance, the issue on rebuilding materials is that their use will have to be managed to avoid favouritism and victimisation of those Gazans who do not support Hamas — recall the attacks against Fatah supporters during the 2007 coup — or diversion to military/ terrorist use.. And that, by a de facto state government that is dedicated to terrorism.

    But, it should be clear that the blockade against weapons smuggling to a terrorist regime is not just an Israeli effort but has support form Egypt and the Palestinian Authority.

    (Of course, t here is a question whether the whole public position of Mr Abbas as stated in English is taqqiya — strategic deception; here to cover the calssic “phased strategy for the destruction of Israel.” I suggest: (i) apparently, in part his remarks were translated, so they would have been in Arabic too, (ii) once he has publicly committed himself in English, he should be held to account on his commitments, and (iii) the injection of credible peace-keeping troops — UN has long since lost its credibility on matters tied to Israel [once U Thant meekly withdrew the Sinai peace keepers on Nasser’s demand in 1967, setting up the blockade and iron ring of tanks, artillery, troops and aircraft that precipitated the fighting in June that year], can make a big difference.)

  41. Dictionary Avatar
    Dictionary

    Upping the ante. Iran’s flotilla:

    _____________

    >> Arutz Sheva
    Monday, June 14 2010
    Iranian Marines Set to Escort Flotilla ‘To Teach Israel Lessons’

    by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu

    Two Iranian ships intended to head for Hamas-controlled Gaza are waiting for their government’s approval to challenge Israel on the high seas, escorted by “volunteer marines” that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad wants to send “to teach Israelis a lesson.”

    An Iranian Red Crescent official said the two ships are waiting for the Iranian foreign ministry to give the green light for launching, according to the French news service AFP, quoting the Iranian Mehr news service. The Red Crescent said a third ship probably would join the fleet.

    Red Crescent official Mojtaba Majd also claimed that more than 100,000 Iranians have signed up to board the ships, but only those with ”expertise” would be accepted. Majd did not define the area of expertise required.

    Ali Shirazi, the Revolutionary Guard’s spokesman for Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, said it was “Iran’s duty to defend the innocent people of Gaza.”

    A Red Crescent ship to Gaza was stopped by the Israeli Navy a year and a half ago, but the charged anti-Israeli atmosphere following the latest flotilla clash has encouraged Arab and left-wing colleagues to try to break Israel’s blockade over free passage to the Gaza coast.

    An Iranian maritime convoy to Israel could provoke a military clash on the high seas, but it also would highlight Israel’s claim that lifting the blockade would allow Iran to directly send advanced arms, ammunition and terrorists for the de facto Hamas government in Gaza.

    The Iranian Red Crescent ships were prepared with cooperation from the Turkish government, according to the London Express. Ahmadinejad reportedly told Turkish leaders in Istanbul last week that the vessels would be prepared for a direct clash with the Israeli Defense Forces.

    Turkey was one of two countries that voted against new sanctions imposed on Iran last week by the United Nations Security Council. Once considered a friend of Israel and distant from Iran, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has totally reversed government policy over the past two years and has joined the Syrian-Iranian-Hizbullah axis while stating that it still wants goods relations with Israel.>>
    ________________

    And so things are lining up “nicely” indeed. (I am using the less common meaning of “nice.”)

  42. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    @ Dictionary….

    I know what a Jihadi is but can you tell me what the term ‘fellow traveller’ means. You have labelled me as such but I would like to know the meaning.

  43. Dictionary Avatar
    Dictionary

    Further FYI:

    A balancing backgrounder I originally developed with AR of J’ca in 2003; as an appendix to a conference paper on healing the rifts among the faiths and peoples tracing to Abraham. The onward links and references will be accessible through the above link — it seems BU now imposes an unreasonable 1 link per comment limit (as was being asked for by the opposed commenters in earlier threads who sought to clip the wings of those who were documenting corrective facts):

    ___________________

    >> SYNOPSIS: HISTORY OF MODERN ISRAEL[22]

    By the late 1800’s, the geographic region of Western/Cis-Jordanian Palestine was largely ruinate land. From the 1893 Ottoman Census and Vital Cuinet’s independent 1896 Geographical work, Syrie, it also had a relatively light population: ~ 92,000 “Arabs” (including significant numbers of non-Arab Muslims and Christians[23]) in the ~ 8,000 sq. mi. areas that became modern Israel.[24] The rest of Cis-Jordanian Palestine had another 300 – 400,000 “Arabs.” At this time, there were also ~ 60,000 Jews in the area West of the Jordan[25]; who had their own established communities and had recovered Hebrew as their mother-tongue.

    The resulting overall situation, circa 1902, has been summed up by Sir William Ramsay, a main founder of the disciplines of Biblical Archaeology and Geography:

    The scenery, more especially in the central and southern regions, is . . . devoid of the rich beauty of high cultivation and productiveness. The hills as a rule are bald, bare and featureless. The terraces by which in happier times the soil was supported on the slopes have almost everywhere been destroyed, and the soil has been washed down into the hollows, where it impedes the outflow of the waters and produces marshes [NB: malarial]. Thus the land is desolate and unattractive. In general the slopes and hillsides are a wilderness of stones and rocks, where a few scanty shrubs can barely find a hold, and the glens a wilderness of marsh, with a scanty rim of cultivable land above the level of the bare rocks, just sufficient to grow food for the miserable and scanty population. [1981, p. 78. Explanatory note on Malaria and italics added.]

    This sad spectacle had been created by centuries of misrule, debt- and disease- ridden tenant farming operated by absentee landowners, and a resulting largely landless and migrant peasantry preyed upon by their overlords and semi-nomadic bandits from the deserts to the East.

    The transformation to the land we now see was in the main due to the Zionist resettlement from the 1870’s on, whereby Jews bought land that often had largely been dismissed as useless (at highly inflated prices) from the wealthy absentee Effendi landowners — then restored it to agricultural production. In the process, they injected large quantities of capital and skill, thus creating employment opportunities that attracted waves of Jewish, Arab and other immigrants from the region and globally. This process was then accelerated by the post World War I collapse of the defeated Ottoman Empire; which led to the creation of the League of Nations Mandate Palestine[26] (i.e. the British Mandate), which was intended to promote Jewish immigration without prejudice to the existing Arab population. [Cf. Peters, 2002, pp. 137 – 359.]

    Associated with this League Mandate[27], Dr Chaim Weizmann [later, first President of Israel] and Emir Feisal Hussein of the Hejaz (S.W. Arabia) had negotiated a Versailles Treaty side agreement[28] to promote mutually supportive Jewish and Arab nations that would help modernize and develop the region. However, in the Hejaz, the al Husseinis were defeated by the Saudi family; and in Palestine, the aggressive, violently anti-Jewish policy of the British-appointed Mufti of Jerusalem prevailed. So, by 1926 – 29, Abdullah Hussein had been settled as ruler of the eastern ¾’s of the Mandate in Transjordan (a 38,000 sq, mi. region; from which Jews were banned) and Feisal as King of Iraq. Sadly, violence also swept the land, leading to the massacres of the ancient Jewish populations of Jerusalem and Hebron.

    Consequently, over the next twenty years, Jewish immigration was significantly hampered [in the teeth of the rising anti-Semitic tide of Hitler’s Germany] and unofficial Arab immigration was a strongly material demographic trend in the now truncated Mandate Palestine. [Cf. Peters, pp. 196 – 412.[29]] As one result, the Middle East was deprived of the talent and treasure of many of the Jews who subsequently perished in the Nazi death camps. Then also, when the British surrendered the Mandate in the late 1940’s, Transjordan became the nation of Jordan [briefly, “Palestine”] in 1946 and the UN in 1947 proposed a partition of the cis-Jordanian region into Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem and environs being an International city.

    The Jews accepted, and the Arab League rejected the UN vote; declaring intent to annihilate the Jews. Thus, within 24 hours of Israel’s independence on May 14, 1948, the 600,000 Israeli Jews faced invasion from five Arab armies, some of them much better equipped than the Haganah, the Jewish part-time militia. However, contrary to the expectations of many, Israel survived. As a result of the conflict, there was an exchange of refugee populations: 400 – 600,000 Arabs [under a unique criterion that 2 years of settlement in Palestine qualified one as a refugee], and 620,000 Jews from Arab lands who were resettled in Israel.[30] [An additional 200,000 oriental Jews settled elsewhere in the world.]

    The Jewish refugees were welcomed and absorbed by Israel, becoming the largest single sector of the population today. However, the Arab refugees in the main were not similarly accepted by the Arab countries [with the major exception of Jordan], and provided the nucleus for today’s Palestinian refugee population.

    Three major wars, terrorism and two uprisings in the West Bank and Gaza (and the two Gulf Wars) have dominated the subsequent history:

    · In 1956, sustained closure of the straights of Tiran (and the Suez canal) to Israeli shipping — in spite of post-1948 truce terms, Egyptian sponsorship of hundreds of Fedayeen terrorist attacks, and a destabilising 1955 arms deal that injected modern Soviet Bloc armaments into the military situation induced Israel to make common cause with the British and French (who undertook a military response to Nasser’s seizure of the jointly owned Suez Canal in the name of nationalism). The Sinai was captured in a 4-day campaign, but was handed back under a US-led, UN–sponsored settlement.

    · In 1967, again after a buildup of tensions, and accompanied by declarations of intent to drive the Jews into the sea, the straights were again closed by Nasser, who also instructed the UN peacekeepers in the Sinai to leave. He then put in seven divisions and several independent brigades into the Sinai, inducing other Arabs to join him in a ring of steel surrounding Israel: 450,000+ men, 2,800 tanks, and 800 aircraft. After the failure of diplomatic initiatives, the Israelis undertook a risky pre-emptive air strike and ground campaign in June, that in six days retook the Sinai (again, in four days), captured the Golan heights [handed over to French Mandate Syria by the British in the 1920’s] plus Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Gaza strip. Thereafter hostilities continued at a lower level, especially during the War of Attrition.

    · On October 6, 1973, Yom Kippur [the holiest day on the Jewish Calendar], Egypt and Syria attacked the Israeli positions in the Sinai and teh Golan, and made significant progress (in the North) that threatened the survival of the Jewish state. Reportedly, Egypt had access to Soviet nuclear weapons, and the Israelis assembled several nuclear bombs; the Superpowers came to the brink of a global confrontation as well. However, Israel soon recovered the military initiative on the ground, in part due to the American decision to resupply them with key weapons.

    · Thereafter the uneasy situation was broken through when, after back-channel contacts, Egyptian President Sadat made a dramatic peace overture; and in 1979 the Camp David peace accord was reached between Egypt and Israel. For this, Sadat paid with his life, being assassinated while reviewing a military parade.

    · Then, in 1986, Israel and Jordan reportedly almost completed an agreement to jointly manage the West Bank towards an eventual settlement. However, a street uprising broke out in the disputed/occupied territories, the first Intifada.

    · In 1991, after the first Gulf War (during which Arafat backed Saddam Hussein), an opportunity for a settlement seemed to arise, and what became the Oslo peace process was initiated. However, in 1995, Yitzak Rabin was assassinated by a Jewish extremist, and by 2000 the unprecedented deal put on the table by US President Clinton and agreed to by Barak of Israel, was rejected; a second Intifada followed. (At least one Palestinian leader has publicly stated that the Sharon visit to Temple Mount was the excuse, not the cause.)

    · Currently, in the aftermath of the second Gulf War, the Americans and the EU are sponsoring a Roadmap to Peace framework. It seems to be facing very similar roadblocks to those that have frustrated every other effort to date. [UPDATE: Subsequent to 2003, Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza has led to further attacks from that territory, and kidnapping of Israeli soldiers there and by Hezbollah terrorists attacking from the S. Lebanon region Israel evacuated in 2000 provoked a short war in 2006. The situation still repeatedly deadlocks in violent confrontations, and so blocks any reasonable compromise along the lines envisioned as long ago as 1919.]

    The timing of the two Intifadas is therefore highly suggestive: they have both happened when a compromise peace more or less along the lines of the 1947 UN partition has been on the table. That is, they are not simple “spontaneous uprisings” of an oppressed people; but rather reflect a shift in Arab strategy post-1973, to the fostering of a Palestinian national identity and state, towards fulfilling the policy intent that has dominated the Arab world since the 1920’s[31]: the unacceptability of a Jewish — thus Dhimmi-ruled[32] — state in the Middle East.[33]

    Currently the United States has intervened strongly in the Middle East, in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks by Arab Muslim extremists. The underlying policy appears to be that the US not only wishes to root out the bases for the terror networks that have attacked it[34] (similar to the Barbary Coast anti-piracy naval wars of the turn of C19), but also it aims:

    1) To block the emergence of an Islamic Nuclear power (e.g. Iraq, Iran, possibly Syria), probably on the grounds that that would make a regional nuclear war all but inevitable; and

    2) To foster democratization, economic development and liberalization across the region; in the hope that these globalization-linked forces would help to drain the pool of resentments that lie at the root of the region’s instability.

    Such a goal will prove to be difficult to achieve at best, and may well prove unsustainable in the long run, as Islamists (and a great many more moderate Muslims) view all three policy aims as incredibly hostile to the global mission and dignity of Islam. But, the US is probably encouraged by the success of its similar interventions with Germany and Japan from the 1940’s on, and the outcome of the Cold War with the Soviet Union.

    However, in the background of the headline-grabbing diplomatic and military events, Israel has undergone a dramatic and exemplary economic transformation in the past 120 years that is an object lesson not only to the Middle East but also to the whole world.

    For, the initial Kibbutzim[35] created an agricultural powerhouse out of what had been largely ruinate land, farmed under unsustainable systems of tenure. Then, with the traditional Jewish focus on education, from the 1930’s on a world-class university system has been created; which now serves to underpin one of the leading high-tech economies in the world. For, arising from the need to develop its own armaments industries the Israelis have spun out an impressive array of inventions and industries, ranging from drip irrigation to cutting-edge aerospace systems and a strong software sector.

    The net result has been that in oil-rich Saudi Arabia, the per capita income in the early 2000’s was US$ 10,600. In Jordan, it was $ 4,200; in the West Bank, $ 1,000; in the Gaza, $ 625. And, in a resource-poor State of Israel that has had to devote a major part of its resources to the military, it was $ 20,000. [36]

    In conclusion, it is evident that the underlying deep-rooted hatreds in the Middle East have frustrated every seemingly reasonable attempt to bring about a positive change and a betterment of the people of the region as a whole. This underscores the importance of the issues raised in the main body of this paper; for, unless reconciliation is found in the arms of the Prince of Peace, there will be no lasting positive settlement of the Middle East situation. (And that is exactly what many leading expositors infer from the relevant prophecies in the Bible.)

    Let us pray for the peace of the hitherto ironically named City of Peace, Jerusalem. END >>
    ____________________

    That is the sort of information that the opposed commenters, unable to address on t he merits, wish to uncivilly smear and dismiss as “lies.”

    Have they no shame?

    D

    PS: T et al, you need to be apologising for slander, not pretending that nothing is wrong. And Mr May above has given a capital example of an extreme type of fellow traveller useful idealist who is not thinking through what s/he is enabling. There are milder cases, but we must not forget that a major cause of the horrors of WW II were idealistic peace activists who could not see that their activism was only enabling aggressive dictators in their bloodthirsty path. A lesson that should be very soberly reflected on indeed as Iran now crosses the nuclear weapons threshold as we speak.

  44. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Israel’s very EXISTENCE, a small, tiny area of land, surrounded by MILLIONS of square miles of Arab countries; the point that the world misses, or wilfully choses NOT to look at, is this:

    Arabs and Muslims demand ANOTHER Palestinian state, a position supported by most of the world; in IGNORANCE of the facts, OR willful blindedness. However, there are two very critical questions that must be answered in so far as the Arabs and Muslims are concerned.

    1. Is their objective a state *alongside Israel, *NO* or is their objective a sate

    2. Is the issue at hand revolving around the *Size* of Israel, *NO* or, is the issue revolving about the *Existence* of Israel? *YES*

    The line of attack is best summed up by one of the PLO’s esteemed leaders, and executive committee member:

    “The Palestinian people DO NOT EXIST. We take PAINS to emphasize our Palestinian identity ONLY for TACTICAL purposes. The creation of a Palestinian state is ONLY a means for continuing our struggle AGAINST the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there IS NO DIFFERENCE between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese. ONLY for political and TACTICAL reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interest DEMAND that we POSIT the existence of a distinct “Palestinian” people to OPPOSE ZIONISM. The establishment of a separate Palestinian state is a NEW TOOL in the continuing struggle against Israel.”

    “For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa. While as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. After having obtained ALL OUR RIGHTS in every bit of Palestine (Israel) – we will not pospone for a singlr moment the re-unification of Jordan and Palestine…” emphasis added.

    In short, the “Palestinian” Arabs admit that they have NO RIGHTS or claims as a group to any country or region of their own. And, they further adsmit that the proposed Palestinian state will be utilized as a means to DESTROY ISRAEL. So, what is the purpose for negotiations? The ‘Palestinians” are waging a WAR of ANNIHILATION against Israel, and America pretends that both parties are participating in a peace process and following the roadmap to peace. Utter hogwash!

  45. Dictionary Avatar
    Dictionary

    So soon do we forget what was going on:

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j68nFQ20o0s&hl=en_US&fs=1&]

  46. Straight talk Avatar
    Straight talk

    Dictionary,

    You’re erecting yet another straw man argument, accusing us of lying. LOL

    The “lie” we would like you to address is your slanderous statement (June 10th 7.32)
    “Anonymous, if you do not know that consistently the current president of Iran has threatened genocide….”,

    Either provide your evidence, admit you contrived a dangerously misleading piece of propaganda or skulk away again.
    Whichever choice you make will be indicative of how you treat this blog.

    I am not interested in hearing about Hamas, Egypt, SA or the blockade….. answer the simple question ….did you lie with the above quote?

    Yes or No

  47. Dictionary Avatar
    Dictionary

    ST:

    Let’s stop playing rhetorical games.

    It is your ilk who have falsely accused me of lying, in so many words, not too far above. That is no strawman caricature, it is an indefensible descent into incivility — beginning to look habitual.

    An apology and retraction are in order, as it is manifestly false and uncivil.

    But then, it is all too telling that instead of addressing the issues on the merits, we see yet another attempt to turn about the locus of guilt through the dirty rhetoric of immoral equivalency and ad hominems.

    It is now quite plain that not only Israel but Egypt and the Palestinian Authority are agreed that some restriction on the ability of Hamas to continue its policy of firing rockets at civilians in Israel, is needed.

    And, even more important than that, it is the president of the PA who is on public record that the Jewish nation has undeniable historic roots in the Holy Land. So, at length — after ten wasted years, thousands of lives needlessly lost or subjected to crippling wounds, and billions of dollars of wealth destroyed — there is again discussion of a compromise along the lines of what Arafat walked away from to wage terroristic war in September 2000. The same general lines that were there from 1948 -9 and again 1967.

    In short, the basic legitimacy of Israel as a nation is not in question.;at least when one stands before an informed audience such as at Brookings. It is time that he sort of intemperate, hateful, blood-libel filled antisemitic rhetoric that stains the above exchanges was apologised for and laid to one side.

    Then, we can move to a more balanced, informed discussion on the terms of a compromise.

    First, it is plain that for most of the border with the WB, the Green line with land swaps is an agreed position. In the case of Jerusalem, the issue is toughest, and I have suggested that a condominium arrangement would be the best solution, one backed by trustworthy peacekeeping troops. (My ideal solution would be an expansion of the Vatican Swiss Guards, bus a solid NATO contingent might work.)

    Gaza, Israel withdrew from in 2005, but the Hamas coup and terror-rocketing has utterly discredited the de facto government. Egypt refused taking it back in 1979 [Israel offered to hand it over lock, stock and barrel.] An international force to clean it out and to respotre decent and peaceful government, with trials for the chief cases would be a good solution, if possible. As with the Balkans.

    Iran needs to be told in no uncertain terms to stop its mad course now, or face devastating consequences. And it it wants to play at nukes, it is now subject tot he rules of nuke powers.

    Then, maybe we can get to something sensible with the Middle East mess that has so harmed the world since the 1940’s.

    The above would work, but I have very little confidence that it will happen that way. (And that is independent form my particular views on eschatology. [So far it looks like eschatology wins over common sense solutions in terms of predicting what is likely to happen.])

    Good day

    D

  48. Straight talk Avatar
    Straight talk

    So that’s it, Dictionary, you won’t answer a civil question.

    If you are unable to maintain your credibility and give a simple response, perhaps you could point out some more truthful person from within your “everyone knows group” who would be willing to be more truthful.

    As it is now calling you a lying propagandist is not being uncivil, it is simply stating an obviously irrefutable fact.

  49. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    Since you have addressed me directly, can you point or post where I have slandered you?
    You have called me Jihadi and world traveller(whatever that really is). Isn’t that slander too ?
    After all your posturing, you continue to miss the point of most on this thread which is the condemnation of the CRIMES committed by Israel against the Palestinians. No one in their right mind would think Hamas is right in their beliefs or actions BUT right thinking people also have a conscience and realises that Israel does wrong, a BLATANT FACT that you and your ilk REFUSE to admit, for whatever religious,prophetic or other dogmatic reasons.
    When others highlight the wrong done by Israel(and there are many just like Hamas)we are branded as anti semetic and Jew haters, all because we have a different take on the matter.
    The problem with you is the arrogant thought, that you are the sole authority on the ME, granted you are well read and versed in the events BUT your religious BIAS undermines your credibility as an impartial commenter on the issue. It is this same religious bias which continues to blind you,your ilk and the apologists to the wrong committed by your chosen people, therefore all pretences of seeking peace are mere window dressing of the issue as you all sit and wait for prophecy to be fulfilled.

    @ CH…

    @David… Wow… Heavy…

    So then my question becomes…

    Did the victors of the Second World War do anyone any favours in giving Israel a “home land”?

    Or did they simply ensure that war would continue for the next 100+ years?

    By Christopher Halsall on June 13, 2010 at 7:12 PM

    You might very well correct here!!
    That is a very profound statement you have made.

  50. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    Should be… You might very well ‘be’ correct here!!

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