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BBC’s World Have Your Say Asks: Is Marriage A Step Too Far For Gay Rights?

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The issue of declining morals in our societies is one which BU remains very concerned.  We have recorded our view in previous blogs; the issue of homosexuality is one of a moral flavour and not the rights issue in which the gay movement has been able to escalate this issue. The recent same sex marriage which occurred in Latin America and  the arrest of a gay couple in Malawi has given renewed currency to the gay debate. There is no doubt the movement is beginning to probe the  Caribbean space in a more aggressive manner. Our hoppa-long leaders will have to declare a position soon. The next two years will make for interesting politics in the Caribbean region.

Tomorrow at 2PM Bajan time, the BBC World Service will broadcast its popular program World Have Your Say. A BU blog, A Step Too Far Or Fairness And Equality: Same Sex Partner’s Legal Rights posted by family member Yardbroom has been featured on the BBC blog which promotes tomorrow’s radio show. Unfortunately BU (David) had to decline the BBC invitation to be on the show tomorrow; a challenge which BU will have to overcome at some point.

The gay debate has reached an interesting point in the US and the UK especially. There is a willingness to accept gay relationships but hesitancy when taking the normal next step to marriage. This current state of affairs is being described as duplicitous to say the least.

For those who are not able to listen live we hope to post a link to the Podcast to the program for the BU family.

Happy New Year Everyone!

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172 responses to “BBC’s World Have Your Say Asks: Is Marriage A Step Too Far For Gay Rights?”

  1. J Avatar
    J

    We born and find homosexuality and it is a CERTAINTY that we will ALL DIE and leave it.

  2. J Avatar
    J

    My question has always been if the homosexuals do not marry each other then whom shall they marry?

    Would the fella who wants his heterosexual daughter to marry a homosexual man, please raise your hand.

  3. J Avatar
    J

    David wrote “The question here Anonymous is about Gays using the institution of marriage.”

    But David a lot of people (some would say most people) have always “used” the institutuion of marriage.

    People have “used” marriage for sex, for getting “lawful” children, for financial security, for housekeeping services, for social advancement, to secure political loyalties. People have “used” marriage because the are afraid to sleep in the house alone at night. People “use” marriage to get American green cards and even Barbados passport.

    Marriage has always been a UTILITARIAN institution.

    So if homosexuals plan to “use” the holy/unholy institution of marraige how does that make them different from the rest of us?

    Show me the young heterosexual fella out there who would continue in his marriage if his wife permanently withdrew all sexual and housekeeping services. In other words if she stops being “useful”

  4. huh???? Avatar
    huh????

    LOL J…

    David is simply narrow minded and this is evdent in his choice of words whenever he raises this discussion….. the homosexual agenda , gays using marriage etc etc. He has no well thought opposing arguments so he resorts to demonization of gay people.

    Gay people are not the first or the only group to be made to feel like 3rd class citizens, less than equal but the vitriol and silliness that is put forward to deny them their equal rights shows that we have not learnt much from the days of Hitler. ( or rather some of us have learnt too much of the wrong things).

  5. J Avatar
    J

    ROK wrote:

    “the law has institutionalised marriage to allow two people to become one in law.”

    This business about 2 people becoming one is a fundamental Christian mis-understanding of marriage.

    Correctly understood in Jewish thought the oneness of the 2 people is not the marriage, but the product of the marriage, the child, who is literally and indistructably the one flesh of the 2 parents.

    This mis-understanding is one of the reasons Christian and Christian derived marriages are in such trouble. 2 adult human beings can NEVER become one.

    But the child is the oneness of the marriage. The literal mingling of the DNA of the 2 parents becomes the one child.

    I wish that more priests and pastors would CORRECTLY teach this aspect of marriage.

    Maybe then couples would respect each other more and not seek to compel the other to become them, because that compulsion, that struggle kills many, many marriages.

  6. J Avatar
    J

    Maybe of course if the church and state understood that there can be no oneness among marriage partners neither the church nor state would proviledge marriges in which there are no minor children and homosexuals would not see marriage as such a disireable state.

    J is happily post-menopausal and will NEVER marrry; since I will NEVER have minor children (and yes I ageee minor children are mostly better off in a good marriage) so tell me why should I marry?

  7. J Avatar
    J

    Let me go and bake some cakes for the Sunday school party.

    Ah gone.

  8. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @J

    I was dealing with the legal position, where one person could be substituted for another or even act as another by law. You using it to get philosophical but this is about practical application not philosophy or theology or christianity or else.

  9. David Avatar
    David

    BU probably represents the view of many Barbadians. Maybe Mia should raise the issue come next election as a platform issue.

    Huh?? this is not about BU being narrow-minded as you say; in fact we maybe doing the issue a favour by airing our view for ALL to discuss.

    Incidentally why do you think the BBC asked the question on the programIs Marriage A Step Too Far For Gay Rights?

  10. jeff cumberbatch Avatar
    jeff cumberbatch

    ROK,

    It is no longer automatically the legal position that the two (husband and wife) become one by marriage.

    Of course they can make it so with the creation of a joint tenancy in a bank account or by putting the matrimonial home in their joint names, but essentially, they are two separate individuals who cannot contractually bind each other as formerly by, say, the wife incurring a debt.

  11. huh???? Avatar
    huh????

    But David you have net even accepted the idea that gays should have equal rights so to focus on whether they should marry or not continues you agenda of demonizing them ” Sound de alarm…now they want to get married and have children ….ya see…”

    Years ago when I was a boy growing up in Barbados I would have thought it was a step too far but Im far more enlightened and open minded now. Back then I thought all Asians were chinese too…

  12. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Right on J…!

  13. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @ Jeff Cumberbatch

    Thanks for your comment. I think the considerations go beyond that of incurring debt as in the old days. For example in the case of a partner in a hospital where the policy is that information will only be shared with husband or wife or in an emergency where the couple could sign/consent for one another.

    Take an example of legal complications where a father is travelling with a daughter but that daughter has her own passport and the father’s name in not there, nor is the girl’s name on his. He may not eventually get arrested for kidnapping, but situations could happen where the safety or welfare of one is compromised and the other is powerless to help.

    So that even outside of marriage as an institution, the legal declaration of any bonded relationship is important.

  14. David Avatar
    David

    @huh????

    Maybe we are narrow minded.

    Is there a compelling argument out there on this issue?

    If there was, why the global debate?

    Educate us please!

  15. J Avatar
    J

    Tell me how long would any Bajan marriage last if the husband withdrew all financial, practical and social priviledges? Can any Bajan marriage last a year if the husband decided to stop being “useful?”

    Can any Bajan marriage last if the husband decided to stop being “useful?”

  16. Yardbroom Avatar
    Yardbroom

    The idea that hurling insults at each other, induces an immediate change of mind or position is seriously flawed.

    A permanent change of mind often comes when your opponent “reflects” on the issues you have raised and you have engendered a climate of interaction which is conducive to such change.

    If the exercise is to be abusive then it does not matter what is being discussed…for an abusive outcome.

    There are people who will be against gay relationships and no intellectual or moral argument will convince them otherwise.

    There are gays who see their relationships as of equal merit, value and substance as hetrosexual ones.

    Since Laws must be passed in our society to guarantee rights with Legal sanction. It is incumbent for the minority to advance a case which does not threaten majority interest or is “perceived” as such.

    Most arguments are “won” away from the debating table, we must send people away with powerful ideas to reflect on, to induce change…abuse seldom accomplishes that.

  17. sad very sad Avatar
    sad very sad

    whatever became of cou cou, david (shirley bassie), Irma La Douche and other famous bulllers??

    sad very sad !

  18. J Avatar
    J

    And continuing about “using” marriage.

    Lest we forget a good number of young religious women (all religions) “use” marriage to legalise the sweet doggie they are already taking.

    If homosexuals plan to “use” marraige I rather suspect that they have learned this “using” from their heterosexual parents, teachers, religious ministers etc.

    Tell me if I I lie!!!

  19. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    sad very sad

    In a word, AIDS

  20. David Avatar
    David

    @J

    Your argument all day would be referred to by those who did logic 101 as a fallacy. In other word, two wrongs don’t make a right.

  21. ac Avatar
    ac

    @J
    When it comes to social issues it is everybodys business.This is evident by the response on this topic. However we are not living in those”good old Days”.
    Some grown ups seem to think that any decision they make should be accepted by others.Some body should be looking out for the wellbeing of the little ones if not us then who.Yes children should be allowed to ask questions that is part of their learning and development.
    The fact that two people of the same sex wants to get married is not a simple matter .

  22. Yardbroom Avatar
    Yardbroom

    “Marriage” is a social union or legal contract between individuals that creates kinship. It is an institution in which interpersonal relationships, usually intimate and sexual, are acknowledged by a variety of ways, depending on the culture demographic.”

    It is a “union” and parties bring a variety of features to the union…often not weighed for balance. In that sense they are both “useful” to the union, most sound and long lasting marriages are so considered.

  23. Bonny Peppa Avatar
    Bonny Peppa

    sad very sad
    I don’t know coucou but I knew David and he died in the late 80’s early 90’s. Erma La Douche died about two or so months ago. Erma did too like walkin wid he scissors in he/she/it bossom. Mess wid he/she/it and ya wood get a good stab. He/she/ it din easy a’ tall. And he/she/ it had a real sweet walk man. He lived in my neighbourhood when I was but a lil whippa-snappa.
    A good few a dem ol bullas n wikkas dead out.

    J
    I rememba as a lil whippa-snappa, fellas would tease bullas real bad and run.
    My brothas tease bullas a nuff in dem time unknown to my parents.

    David
    Keep up de fight. Doan leh nabody ruffle ya feddas.

  24. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    But ac it is a simple matter, just leave them alone to be happy and enjoy the 70 years of life that they have in this world..!

  25. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    But J

    I am on your side, Don’ min’ David, but you have to explain wha’ yah mean by “the sweet doggie they are already taking”…!

  26. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Bonnie we too different fah you tah like me doh… Can’ get it un’stan’..?

  27. Avatar
    Anonymous

    Yardbroom

    Man come and talk in good bajan english and say whether you think we should have same sex marriage in barbados or not.

    All this gooblegook mekkin my head hurt man.

    You like you changing yuh position and want to support dis peverted ting.

  28. David Avatar
    David

    On the issue of homosexuality listen to the recently appointed Arch Bishop of the West Indies:

    More discussion needed on issue

    12/20/2009

    Bishop of the Anglican Church in Barbados and Archbishop of the Province of the West Indies, Dr. John Holder says that there needs to be continuing discussion in society on the issue of human sexuality.

    Responding to a question on the issue of homosexuality, raised during a recent press conference to mark his return to Barbados following his election as Archbishop, Bishop Holder said that such dialogue is needed and must take into consideration the differences in the understanding of the issue.

    “Only last year at the Lambeth Conference, we produced a volume on human sexuality and I made a contribution to that volume, so I have written on it, I would not say extensively, but significantly and the position I hold in those two papers is still the position I hold today and it is that there is need to be an ongoing discussion on the area of human sexuality … I said that two, three years ago in my first paper, I said it last year in a book that was written for Lambeth and I still hold that position,” he maintained.

    On the issue of spirituality, the Bishop said that contrary to what some believe, there is not a lack of spirituality in the Church today.

    “Spirituality has to do with that conviction, that no matter what the experience may be, no matter what the varied interpretations may be, God is present and if that is our faith [and] that is our conviction, that is the corner stone of spirituality,” he stated.

    Meanwhile, speaking to the work of the Barbados Christian Council, Holder said that its work has been going relative well and they have been meeting on a monthly basis to look at the common issues they are encountering across denominations including the Roman Catholic church as well as the evangelical churches, working together as Christians, and he said that work will continue.

    Additionally, he said that the Council has seen the need to have a more organised presence in institutions across the country, including those in the health field as well as education.

    “One of the things that we did last year is that we organised a training course for chaplains. We think one of the challenges that we have in this society is having an organised presence in many of our institutions, the health institutions, schools, etc and the churches in the Christian Council got together and decided to invite two professional trainers from the United States, who came to us and exposed a number of our clergy across the churches to the work of chaplaincy, to me that is one of the highlights of the work of the Christian Council in the last two years or so,” he said. (JRT)

    A slightly more clear position compared to his successor is Drexel  Gomex’ position.

    BRBADOS: Gay ‘Relief’
    by TONY BEST

    NationNews.com

    http://www.nationnews.com/story/289184702061123.php

    4/7/2007

    NO TO LEGALISING prostitution; yes to decriminalising homosexuality.

    That seems to be the emerging position of the Anglican Church in Barbados and the rest of the Caribbean.

    Archbishop Drexel Gomez of the West Indies Province and a former bishop of Barbados, has rejected any idea of the church supporting an attempt to legalise prostitution in various islands, Barbados included, but said he could back the decriminalising of homosexuality among consenting adults, purely on human rights grounds.

    He remained opposed to the practice of homosexuality but supported a change in the law that would end discrimination and violence directed at gay people because of their lifestyle.

    "Several countries in the Caribbean have already decriminalised homosexual practice between consenting adults in private," he told the SATURDAY SUN in an interview from his home in The Bahamas.

    "That is in response to the human rights issues that have arisen. I would find it difficult not to support that from a human rights perspective, while at the same time disagreeing with the homosexual lifestyle and its agenda. I don’t feel they should be harassed and persecuted," he added.

    The archbishop disagreed with officials and experts who linked decriminalising prostitution and homosexuality in order to fight the spread of HIV/AIDS, saying that while sex workers had chosen a deliberate way to make a living, the same couldn’t be said for gays.

    "I wouldn’t put them in the same category," he said. "Prostitution is definitely a chosen field of action that people enter into and I would see no need for the church to change its position in any way in respect of that. I would not support the decriminalisation of prostitution.

    "However, I would support the decriminalisation of homosexuality among adults on the grounds of human rights," he added.

    The archbishop’s position was in step with the attitude of the church in England officially adopted several years ago.

    No wonder people confuse.

  29. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    @ David

    Drexel Gomez is the most effeminate cleric that I have ever had the discomfort of listening to, Live…! His stance on this issue is suspect, very suspect…! Holder, on the other hand I have known for years. His wife is the most wonderful example of feminity on this side of the planet. Tell me, with good conscience, which of the two really represent the TRUE MAN in us…?

  30. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Anonymous,

    You have the envious gift of being able to write intellegently… but with little or no aptitude to … hmmm.. please help me to finish this comment… anyway you can…

  31. ac Avatar
    ac

    @BAFBFP
    I am not going to argue with you my dear you have your reasons and I have mind as clearly stated in my commentssmooch………….. Now to the topic at hand.

    This is a topic with various point of view but after years of learning that marriage is between the opposite sex, now we are learning that it would be acceptable to acknowledge same sex marriages by those who think it is o.k. .It is not possible to reverse what people were taught for all those year overnight
    As far as live and let life The homosexual community is the ones who brought this topic in the public arena . Therefore I venture to say we the public has a right to speak out on which ever side we view the issue .

  32. Hants Avatar
    Hants

    Homosexuals should be allowed a civil union but not one sanctioned by the church in Barbados.

    Homosexuals are human beings like the rest of us, pay taxes and otherwise contribute to society like the rest of us.

    The problem for them is that it is not easy for heterosexuals to tolerate public “acts of affection” between two men so married or not they can’t live like the rest of us.

    I also think it would be very difficult for a homosexual couple to raise children in Barbados. The children would be given hell at school.

  33. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Wars are fought and wars aWars are fought and wars are won..! Not by women, but by MEN…! There are men out there who need the help of MEN. They may be different but they are still MEN..! I am 100% behind them; in front them, beside them…! Doing otherwise is to stagnate, and for a MAN that should mean a quick and easy death. Yes I despise civil servantsre won..! Not by women, but by MEN…! There are men out there who nees our help

  34. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    David please explain what happened to the above?

  35. Bonny Peppa Avatar
    Bonny Peppa

    BAFBFP
    Wait, wah you mean by ‘we too different fa you ta like me’ or sumting so? wah you mean by dah man?

    Anonymous
    I doan want ta laff but ya got ma brekkin down when you talk bout my Yardbroom. He’s a good fella. Leff ‘e.

    I was always curious about the antics of Br.Drex. Way too feminine fa me bosey so wah wunna x-peck? A fishaman gun sa he fish stink? stupseeeeee n belchhhh.

    ac
    I second your commotion. There’s enough evil in this world as it already stands. Why add another? Same-sex ma big toe. It is confusing to the lil ones. Two daddies, two mummies.I confuse and I don’t live in it. I am yet to find out if this is a learnt behaviour or if persons are born this way. Again, I’m confused. Maybe it’s a bit of both.
    One of the functions of a marriage/cohabitation is to reproduce. How will this be done without a third party being involved?
    Look, I even mo confuse now, ac, I gine n drink a ‘drink’.

  36. Bonny Peppa Avatar
    Bonny Peppa

    Hants
    The best so far. Even betta than mine. I jellus.

    BAF
    You gettin on real ‘wassy’ bout dis ting ya. Be careful. I cud see you temple beating real fas. Be careful dawlinks.
    Women is ga war ta.
    Women need help ta.
    To think otherwise is lopsided.

    ac
    cool down ya fiance.

  37. ac Avatar
    ac

    @Hants
    Please advise as to which church should sanction “civil unions”.
    heterosexual pay taxes too .What is your point.

  38. ac Avatar
    ac

    @BAFBFP

    Don’t let them confuse you.I goinna buy a comfort pillow fuh u tonite
    Yuh all leave my honeydew alone

  39. Enuff Avatar
    Enuff

    The fact that we continue to glorify the institution of marriage is in itself laughable. One of the biggest stories of 2009, if not the biggest, was the Tiger Woods fiasco which encapsulated all of the reasons why this rigid posture about protecting the sanctity of marriage is a farce. It proved beyond a doubt that marriage is perceived by the public and the law as a mere contract between two people with certain rights. What else can it be when after the revelation of 15 known (there must be more) mistresses the continuation of a ‘holy’ union revolves around the renegotiation of a prenuptial agreement i.e. MONEY.
    Homosexuals are also homosapien and not stupid!!

  40. ac Avatar
    ac

    @Enuff
    If the foundation is faulty the marriage would crumble.
    A strong marriage would withstand the test ot time.It is not about materialistic things .Remove those things and if the foundation of love commitment is there that marriage would survive.Thereis marriage and there is “Holy Matrimony”

  41. m Avatar
    m

    Blinded gay man again pleads for lover

    Wants his guy to care for him at home

    Saturday, December 12, 2009

    CLAUDE Pryce, the man who was violently blinded by his male lover, again pleaded with the court to release his companion, so that he could come home and care for him.

    However, his request was again denied when he appeared in the Corporate Area Resident Magistrate’s Court on Thursday.

    Pryce, who lost his sight after his eyes were gouged out by his 32-year-old partner, Arthur McTaggart, on November 22, told Resident Magistrate Sonia Bertram-Linton that since the incident it has been very hard for him to cope and, as a result, needed McTaggart’s help at home.

    Resident Magistrate Bertram-Linton told Pryce, during the start of the preliminary enquiry, that she could not throw out the case despite Pryce’s passionate plea for McTaggart’s release.

    McTaggart, who is charged with unlawful wounding and assault occasioning grievous bodily harm, was further remanded in custody and is to return to court on January 7.

    According to the police, the two were involved in a fight at their Calabar Mews, St Andrew apartment when the accused used his fingers to gouge out Pryce’s eyes.

    The fight was reportedly as a result of Pryce’s failure to sleep at the house on the previous night.

    Pryce was admitted for surgery at the University Hospital of the West Indies, while McTaggart turned himself in at the Half-Way-Tree Police Station.

  42. Bonny Peppa Avatar
    Bonny Peppa

    enuff
    Because Tiger Woods and others too numerous to mention, ‘horn’ their partners that makes the institution of marriage laughable?
    Why am i not laughing then? I real serious. You serious?

  43. Hants Avatar
    Hants

    @ ac

    What I am saying in plain Bajan Ingalish is that my personal opinion is that

    Gays should be allowed to be married by a magistrate and given the same legal rights as us straight people.

    Gays should not be married in Church by a priest.

  44. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    ac

    I like you. I really just like you…. some stupid sense of inspiration (laugh at me). Ca’ dear we could not just connect as human beings as if it were just part of some divine agenda … I am sure that Georgie would finf a way to convince you of this. With a genetic slip I could have been homosexual too or either of my two children.. COMPASSION is all I ask… is that too much..?

  45. Enuff Avatar
    Enuff

    @ Bonny Peppa

    My comment never said marriage was laughable and had little to do with infidelity. The salient point was the continued celebration of marriage as ever so special and the fact that its continuance in some cases, as in Tiger’s, is negotiable based on money.

    You need a class in Comprehension, seems like you spent too much time gazing about holy matrimony, procreating and interfering with procreation.
    @M

    Feb 04

    Pinky Samboocharan, 42, of Julien Village, Princes Town. Strangled by her husband Suresh during a murder/suicide at the couple’s home.

    May 18

    Margaret Shanta Parsad, 52, an attorney, of Gordon Street,San Fernando. Parsad was murdered at her home by her ex-lover, businessman Satnarine Maharaj who then drank weedicide.

    Aug 06

    Donna Noel. Shot dead by her male policeman companion, Corporal Sean James, while at her Curepe workplace. James then shot himself.

    Aug 22

    Dianne Baptiste, 30, of Brazil Village, Arima. Her throat was slit by her lover Michael Isaac, who then committed suicide.

    Dec 19

    Waheeda Bahadur, 42, of Chaguanas. Beaten on the head with a hammer during a domestic dispute.

    Source: Trinidad Express

  46. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Enuff … you wid me…?

  47. kiki Avatar
    kiki

    The Gaylads

  48. ac Avatar
    ac

    @Hants
    Question:Whatwillbe they given married tiles Mr. Mrs.in plain “bajan Inglaish”.Please pontificate.
    Don’t care how you people slice .dice. or mix marriage is between a man and woman.

    @BAfBFP

    I have compassion for de one and only BAFBFP.

  49. Ready Done Avatar
    Ready Done

    Gay marriage is about two men openly professing sexual love for each other. Is this a help or hindrance to society?

    Can the same sex partners raise children the right way? With one sex around, could a child truly understand the other sex though they are not exposed intimately to them. I can see this would be far worst and cause more confusion than any normal human relationship can.

    I don’t believe in killing, so maybe if all the gays were rehabilitated or put on cull pepper island it could be ok.

    Gay should have never been removed from the list of metal illnesses, then the proponents would never want to be in normal society they would have started there own society.

  50. Hants Avatar
    Hants

    @ac

    Just like women in Quebec use their maiden names after they are married,gays can do the same.

    This is about giving all human beings equal rights under the laws of a country.

    Think of it as a business arrangement to create equality in the responsibility of being a citizen.

    We are all having this discussion knowing that homosexuality will not be an accepted lifestyle by the majority of Barbadians for the foreseeable future.

    Tolerance is a virtue.Seek it.

The blogmaster invites you to join the discussion.

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