For anyone with a professional (or even a hobbyist’s) interest in the notion of “anonymous defamation”, it’s worth pondering the recent case noted below, which entails an interesting legal development …

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/aug/19/google-model-blogger-liskula-cohen

At 5:35 a.m;. Anonymous wrote ” …this great political strategist Hartley Henry I don’t know why my PM continues to associate with this guy to be honest.”

And I’ll add I don’t know why the PM continues to pay him with OUR money.

Adrian,

What are you talking about? I am not arguing the elements of the law of defamation with you. I know the elements of the Law of defamation.

I was merely clarifying my comments to Themis.

I think that we can all agree that defamatory comments are made all the time on this blog. And when I say defamatory comment I mean a comment that “reflects on a person’s reputation and tends to lower him in the estimation of right thinking members of society generally or tends to make them shun or avoid him”.

If you want an example of a defamatory comment look at the comment from Adrian Hinds dated August 15th 2009 at 12:45 where it was suggested that everyone knows to keep their girl child from around a particular individual.

Not really. Three tests; (1) would the words tend to make ordinary people think less of the persons, whoever they may be, involved? (2) Would the ordinary person think of anyone in particular that they could refer to? (3) Are they published on this blog? Let’s hear your answers.

How does that succeed in lowering the person image in the eyes of “right” thinking members of society? Are you suggesting that I know who these “right” thinking persons are, and that “everyone” has a girl child? and would the person not have to prove that their reputation was injured and or that they suffered mental anguish as a result of the statement? How could i possibly know what “everyone” knows?

Anonymous wrote “HH played his hand like a novice.”

Indeed.

And yet he is a highly paid “principal adviser to the Prime Minister”

Was he hired on merit?

Is he keeping his job by merit?

And if not by why merit, why then is he sucking up our tax money?

Yeah I did say “HH played his hand like a novice”.
But to be fair, on reflection I really ought to have added…”based on the info we were given in the newspaper article”. Getting more info bit by bit and there is a whole lot more to this…as there usually is.

Adrian,

I suggest that you go read a tort book. As Themis tried to tell you, there are certain elements of defamation.

So, if I want to sue for defamation I would have to show:

First, that the statement made is capable of being defamatory. In other words, the statement must be one that makes people think less of me.

Second, it must be shown that the statement was referable to me specifically. This means that if I am Guyanese, I can’t sue you for making a statement that all Guyanese are criminals. That is because the statement does not refer to me specifically.

Third, the statement must be published or relayed to a third party or to third parties. So If you told me that I was a thief and no one else was around to hear it, I couldn’t sue you because it wasn’t relayed to a third party.

In some cases you will need to prove loss but some types of comments are actionable per se (i.e. actionable without proof of loss).

Last point to make is that a comment is capable of being defamatory even if it doesn’t seem so on its face. That means that a mere inference or suggestion without making an outright accusation can be defamatory. It is called innuendo.

My only point was that your comment was a defamatory comment. It suggested that “girl children” were somehow at risk around a particular individual. This, in the context of a thread where the individual was accused of sexual harassment, falls within the first element of defamation outlined above. Whether an action would be successful would be a different story. You may have a defence for all I know. But these types of comments are made all the time on this blog. This is probably why very few of these bloggers are willing to reveal their identities.

POLICE CALLED IN FOR PRIME MINISTER”S STAFF

Ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaa. So hartley in the news on this blog again. Only the other day I was reading about him in a letter written by one Jennifer Lazlo to Prime Minister Bird. Now today, on the front page of my paper I am reading about him again in a letter sent to the idiot Prime Minister thompson for threats made to Carol Martindale and the Nation News Paper.

Well well well who will put an end to this “clown dual”? This is the same “clown dual” of thompson/hartley combination that when down to St. Kitts the other day and advised the Prime Minister and the Attorney General in the boundaries case. The Hon. Mia Amor Mottley was introduced into the case as legal expert on the matter and by the time she was through with them the Court agreed that the advice provided by the “clown dual” was in contempt of court. Now the Attorney General will have to resign and the Prime Minister may suffer defeat in the upcoming elections.

This combine force of political ignorance is not only reaping havoc in Barbados but in the region as well. As Barbadians woke up to the frightening news that press freedom in Barbados is under attack we are now painfully and equally aware that the perpetrator of this attack can be found no worse place than in the office of the PRIME MINISTER. I would prefer a Prime Minister who curses a journalist rather than one who THREATENS to destroy one.

When this matter is brought before the Board of the international press the office of the Prime Minister of Barbados will be sullied. So not only will Hartley have a file open on him in the country of Jennifer Lazlo’s birth for his sexual molestation charges but he will now have another file open on him in every country where there is a press body for his attack on freedom of the press.

Oh and by the way, if the results of the nuisance poll was gathered using the same method used by Hartley to attempt to get the Nation to put on its front page, as we are hearing from some of those interviewed, then clearly we understand the results are the way there are. This was a DLP’s poll. What would you seriously think it would say that the BLP was winning? Come on. The questions that must be answered are these. Do the comments of the people you pass in the streets everyday and echoed by persons interviewed by the Nation News in the Melissa Rollock story under the Headline “Jobless battling hard times” on page 14A of the same Sunday Sun, bears any resemblance with the results of the poll? Having read the comments of those person interviewed in the story are the Dems saying that a Government that inflicts such suffering is awarded with political longevity? That is not the experience I have with what occurred in the election of 1994.

Despite BU’s differences with Perter Wickham on many issues let the record show we defended his record when the Jamaican came to Barbados and did the CHAPO poll. It proved a disaster and Peter still has the grin on his face. The question raised earlier which questioned Wickham’s poll methodology in this poll is worthy of pursuit. If he has used the same methods with good success over the years what conclusions should we make now?

David wrote at 10:03 a.m. “Here is a question for Roxanne Gibbs who should be fired …Our advice to the government is to yank all government advertising from the Nation for 60 days.”

Don’t you think that you are being a bit harsh?

And are you aware that all governments collect taxes from both DLP and BLP supporters.

Are you aware that the money is therefore the people’s money?

Are you aware that it is not DLP, nor BLP money?

Are you aware that it is NOT David Thompson’s money?

Nor Hartley Henry’s

As it was not Owen Arthur’s money.

Nor Mia Mottley’s.

Are you aware that it is OUR money?

living in Barbados real touchous fa tru’

Take it light man (you understand what that means?)

This is Barbados man, not Jamaica.

We know how to laugh at others and at weself.

Peter Wickham poll was on the ball with the last general election in Barbados. What is so wrong now? The poll shows that Barbadians are not satisfied with the cost of living and with employment. Every government in power always gets a favorable rating with polls done in Barbados.
Mia popularity is low with Barbadians because of her opposition to most things Barbadians hold dear.
The immigration debate hurt her most but Owen was also hurt because he is also in the twenties. If they do not change that stance Barbadians will vote for the DLP even if the cost of living remains high.
Restaurants are closing but small entrepreneurs with vans are increasing because they sell food and other stuff for ten dollars and less.
The Barbados economy will rebound when those selfish business persons recognized it would be best to drop prices letting more persons buy and more money will start circulating in the economy.
Trades men are also jokers, now is the time to drop their demand for high wages for to doing repairs to houses. Persons are wiling to do little repairs for Christmas but most of the workmen still want big money for doing everything. It is better to work for a hundred dollars a day than none now they are unemployed.
Do not let the Guyanese get all the money to send back to Guyana

living in barbados wrote “You know the adages ‘repetition makes truth’ …Why should I now have to deal with questions about my objectivity? As I also said, every ‘anonymous’ commentator is a real person and they do talk, and things do spread”

Of course things spread. Barbados is a VERY SMALL place as you have still NOT discovered.

So how do you propose to stop Bajans from talking your name with the people on the bus? or in the washroom at work? or at a restaurant? or in the cemetery at a funeral? (actually a really, really good place to talk people’s names) or at the golf club? or at the tennis club? or in the children’s school yard? or at the lodge meeting, or at the beach, or the service club?

You CAN’T.

And threatening a defamation lawsuit won’t stop people from talking and won’t endear you to ANY Bajans.

For all that our politicians like to threaten (and even sometimes win defamation lawsuits) don’t you know that we Bajans still talk their names.

You should hear what we say about Muscle Mary.

Barbados isn’t Europe.

Barbados isn’t North America?

Barbados isn’t China.

Barbados isn’t China.

If you can’t bear to have your name talked then you would be well advised to remain in that place in the far white north (near to Boston)

I can’t tell you the number of times people on this blog have accused me of being Ezra Alleyne’s woman. And you never hear me threaten to call my lawyer (because I don’t have one lol!!!)

I’ve NEVER meet the gentleman.

You think I care what people say?

“For all those who don’t understand the point David is making about withrawing advertising.”

One of the problems new governments face is getting the national machinery rolling as it should be. The problem is that the shift in personalities in Government is not met with a shift in the personalities with political affiliations that command and manage the resources.

Therefore, what the out-going party may get away with, (especially in Government for 14 years) the in-coming party will not, if the resources are controlled by a member or sympathiser of the out-going party.

I would agree with David that the same courtesy shown to the out-going party should be shown to the in-coming party. It seemed to have been standard procedure under the last administration that when things like that happened, it would be unprofessional to simply publish before giving an opportunity for a clear of the air by the offending party. i.e. rather than turn it into some juicy story, seek to deal with the matter and if there is no satisfaction, then both sides of the story can be printed/broadcast.

One thing I would say about the BLP is that they let things run until they consolidate their position and gain control. This is how Tom did it and how Owen did it. Nothing wrong with that as a strategy, but what it does is to preserve the good reputation of the party in order to ensure that a second term is secured.

After winning the next term, all hell can break loose. The popularity of the Government is confirmed and the screws get tightened in preparation for the third term. By that time, the media is firmly under control.

@ anonlegal
“….You and I may have the sense to know that unproven accusations from an anonymous blogger mean nothing. However there are many who will believe the comments posted on this blog and may start to question his objectivity based on the comment made….”
*************************************
You lawyers certainly have a unique perspective…..

1 – “unproven accusations from an anonymous blogger mean nothing. ” …unless of course these unproven accusations happen to be TRUE, ..but unspeakable because the big-up crooks have at their disposal a battery of lawyers whose role is to suppress such truth….

2 – If the bloggers “unproven accusations ” are indeed untrue, this is usually quickly demonstrated in the brutally frank exchanges on the blog where matters cannot be hidden as ‘before the court’ or ‘potentially libelous”..and so the ‘facts’ emerge.

3 – There is normally MUCH more to a person’s life than what is said about them in a blog. Although bloggers can try to pull down a good man, the truth usually prevails in the end….

Seems to me that the legal stand explained by you and Themis may account for the sad Bajan attitude of accepting bribery, thief’ing and waste at the political and organisational level.

…finally, people like LIB who go around trying to create a virtual image of greatness on the www with nothing substantial to back up this bravado, would be particularly sensitive to such accusations….LOL

BU & David

Please convey my apologies to your readers.

I have today resigned from my position as Political Adviser to the Thompson Administration.

I will return this month’s salary to the treasury coffers.

I will take up residence in……MARTINDALE’S ROAD, BARBADOS.

Your friend,

Hartley Henry

@Hartley Henry

Sorry to hear of the incident but sometimes you pay dearly to learn a lesson but it is a lesson worth learning.

Just to share an experience of what my earlier point. There was a PA who used to go and fight for benefits for poor people in a certain department of government before he was a PA.

Just after being appointed to the post under a new Government, the PA went as usual to this Department to do what he was doing for so many years. He engaged the lady as he normally would but realised she was not saying anything. Within a minute the lady broke down in tears and went to her manager and laid a big complained against the PA.

I leave you to figure out what was so different as to cause the complaint. All the best bro!

@ROK

Remember anybody can post using a handle of choice.

@David

Very well aware of that. It was a way to elaborate a bit more on my above point. LOL!

I am neither a B or a D but as a young person who believes in the values of Democracy this type of thing frightens me. When a person of any political affiliation sees it fit to try threaten and politicize a national media outlet IT IS A PROBLEM. So all of the political yardfowls bout here clucking in support of Mr. Henry need to re-evaluate themselves and their values if the have any at all. I don’t care if it was Owen, Mia or Thompson. It is shameful and embarrassing. But the PM does not have enough balls to publicly chastise Henry’s actions, in fact he can’t! Henry is the PM’s best buddy, eulogist at Henry’s sister’s funeral and close family friend. So I can say in no uncertain terms that he supports or condones Mr. Heartley’s actions…after all, the DLP could have never won this election without him.

Anyway, I give the DEMs a failing grade cause I never had it harder than I have it now. With the mass lay offs, he should extend NIS benefits to the unemployed not give NIS concessions to greedy companies. Or maybe this is not the right to time to but ppl at the UDC out of work ot maybe he could have raised the water rated in increments or maybe he could have put more pressure on LIME not to layoff more than 300 bajan workers. Or maybe he could advise his ministers like Mr. Dennis Lowe, to show up at his constituency office more than once in a blue moon….OR Perhaps he could grow a pair and be a leader not a puppet for his advisers.

“Google has been ordered to reveal the name of an anonymous blogger who bad-mouthed a New York fashion model, in a case that could restrict Americans’ ability to slag off enemies from behind a veil of Internet secrecy.

“A New York state supreme court judge, Joan Madden, ruled that Liskula Cohen, 27, is entitled to the identity of the person who maligned her sexual practices, hygiene and appearance last year on a blog titled “Skanks in NYC”, in order to pursue a defamation suit.”

………………………………………………….

It is obvious that it would have come to this. Question is whether or not blog owners have the same protection as journalists not to reveal sources?

The alternative would be to sue the blog owner… but then would an unmoderated blog place that same responsibility for publishing on a blog owner?

Concerned idiot

Sorry you’re young and I should be a bit more respectful. But perhaps you will grow old enough to recognise a human trait/failing refered to in mature circles as professionalism.

I had to purchase against my better judgement as I long stop buying that paper, to read the article about Hartley Henry. If the incedent is true, then Mr Henry really went off his rocker, he behaved as though the DLP is in desperate trouble and are catching at straws. As stated before, I didn’t put too much faith in the results of the polls but Henry’s incedent has furture nullify these polls. Personally, i think the P.M is doing the best he can undr the conditions that greeted him on taking up the position. I though he made an error during election campaigning about the goodies heplanned to give within 90 days, 100 days, whatever. Bajans have never giving any party, not even the DLP under Barrow, a fourth term. Plus the swing voters, who are the ones that make a difference in any elections, recognised the BLP had long lost it’s responsibility to govern fairly. This I thought would have come back to haunt the party. However, bajans soon adapted to this and most realised that the offers made were unrealistic. Henry’s latest interference must worry the P.M and I hope he calls his troop together and read the riot act to them about their silly mouthings. Mia is vindiuctive enough to put these in store and use them when it matters most, PLEASE don’t give any negative food against the DLP to use.

Anonymous
I did that some time ago when the Nation was so bias with the immigration matter. That is why I’m disappointed with Henry for falling into their trap, it shows immaturity by someone that I thought was more professional. The harsh thing about politics is you are only as good as your last encounter, and Henry has fouled up BIG TIME. He did the right and honorable thing to resign and save some face on the P.M, any consultation can be done behind the scenes.