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The Mark Of The Beast, The Coming Of The Anti-Christ,The Dead Sea Scrolls

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Mark of the Beast
Mark of the Beast

It is no secret that there is a constituency which dwells in the Barbados Underground who enjoys a robust religious debate. In recent times there has been rich discussion about the Jewish Talmud, The Promises of God and currently The Bible And The Qur’an, Brothers Kept Apart. This group is comprised of Atheists, Agnostics, Christians and  others, we even noticed the description Apathiest.

Surprisingly to the BU household the religious conversation has attracted a healthy following based on what we see from back here. We hope that we are not twisting any arms but there are some Christian events which require clarification.

  • The BU household wishes to ask our religious luminaries to explain how they perceive revelations linked to  the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls can potentially reshape religion as we know it.
  • Explain the Mark of the Beast and the much discussed the coming of the Anti-Christ.

Attached is a Power Point Presentation which has been in circulation for sometime which some believe is the Mark of the Beast exposed!

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820 responses to “The Mark Of The Beast, The Coming Of The Anti-Christ,The Dead Sea Scrolls”

  1. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    David
    Re your point of privilege. I am always keen to rightly divide the Word of truth on BU and elsewhere. But I don’t think that there is a need to target folk who are deliberately interested in distracting the sound teaching of the Word. If folk don’t have something relevant to the discussion, it is better not to post. I tend not to post on matters about which I know little or nothing. I seek to listen and learn.

    I am not going to be engaging obvious hecklers in any discussion or debate, about Bible truths. To them I apply Proverbs 26:4 & 5, accordingly.

    Consequently, you will notice that I don’t respond to the posts of some members at all! It just does not make sense to waste the time. There is nothing to be gained by anyone. On the basis of 1 Peter 3:15, I think I have an obligation to answer every man that asks me a reason of the hope that is in me or that I declare. And I try to do that to the best of my ability.

    The purpose of directing my message and elucidations to the converted (Zoe) is to encourage him to earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints as cited in Jude 3. No one else on this forum seems to even try to do so.

    @ BT

    I do not insult the intelligence / knowledge / motive of other bloggers, and you know that. I don’t mind debating with you personally, as I have demonstrated several times, because you at least stay on point and seek to post issues that are relevant to the topic. Technician and Hopi and even Not Saved tend to ask reasonable questions.

    BTW, the people who post on this blog about Bible matters do not test either my knowledge or conviction, nor do they cause me to reinforce, refine and expand my understanding of the Bible (with the exception of Zoe, who is wel read on the subjects discussed). For that I read authors steeped in inductive methods of Bible study, and commentaries from whom I can learn something.

    I have not asked anyone to accept Bible prophecies, or my interpretation thereof, nor have I used hateful and aggressive language.

    I have simply expressed my discernment that a particular poster seeks to distract from the presentation of the Word, all the time, whilst adding nothing relevant to the discussion. I have no doubt in my mind, from the submission, that that behavior is the spirit of antichrist, and I have said so very plainly.

    I will nevertheless follow your admonishment to perform the role of witness, so that when the time comes, none can honestly say that they were not advised or warned.

    BTW, with respect to Jonah, the book of Jonah is not a prophesy per se, but a few stories about a prophet. Jonah’s prophesy is some where in Kings.

    Perhaps the major importance of the book of Jonah is what Jesus said in Matthew about the major event in this book, as a type of his resurrection. The whale is a mere incidental in the book of Jonah. The essential in Jonah is God’s dealings with Jonah.

    As you said, Jesus displayed great patience and tolerance for folk such as the woman at the well, and Niccodemus, inter alia, but he certainly did not have a lot of time for those who were obviously playing the fool.

    Were Jesus to log on to BU, GP wont be the target of his impatience, because GP would be very quiet, and listening and seeking to learn from what he had to say. Thats what I usually do when I meet someone who is sharing the Word well.

  2. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    @GP

    thanks man !

  3. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    @Georgie Porgie……. Got to join Not Saved —- ‘thanks man.’

    You know that old saying ‘a mind is a terrible thing to waste’

    Do you think that the majority can defeat this beast or should we wait on Jesus Christ to come and save us from it?

    At what age were you conscious that you were a christian?

    Were you given an option between Christ and another Saviour?

  4. JJ Avatar
    JJ

    Hi Georgie Porgie,

    The following is my response to you, respectfully…

    QUOTE:
    “The whole issue of the Bible is about how God deals with the sin issue. Thats the message of the Bible from Genesis 3:15.”

    I agree.

    QUOTE: “Those persons who deal with the sin issue according to God’s plan are in heaven as early as Revelation 4.”

    Yes, I agree again.

    QUOTE: “Revelation 6-19 deals generally and specifically with those who elect to deal with the sin issue according according to their own way.”

    Don’t know if I understand your wording… Please clarify..

    QUOTE: “You seem to be confused and inconsistent about the judgement of God. You ask WILL THE SAME GOD WHO SENT HIS ONLY SON TO DIE FOR US THEN PUNISH THESE CHILDREN WITH TOTAL FURY?”

    I’m not at all confused. The question is rhetorical with an obvious answer: No!

    QUOTE: “Several scriptures teach that God did indeed send his son to die for the sins of ALL MEN. In other words his work on the cross was SUFFICIENT for all. But several other scriptures reveal that his work on the cross is EFFICIENT only for those who accept this work. An example of these verses is 1 Timothy 4:10. Christ is there described as the Savior of all men, especially those that believe.”

    I’m in complete agreement with this.

    “These is a separation. There is the judgement seat of Christ for believers, and the great white throne judgement for unbelievers.”

    I completely agree!

    “The saints are in heaven in Rev 4, the aints are not!”

    There are 24 Elders (redeemed human beings) in Revelation 4. But if you mean that ALL the saints are in heaven in Revelation 4, then you’re incorrect. I’m not sure what you mean by “the aints are not.”

    “The issue here is not microchips as the reason for receiving or experiencing the wrath of God. The discussion is about trying to discern the nature of the mark of the beast. It is clear that there will be a mark. It is unclear what the nature of the mark will be.”

    You are unclear what the nature of the mark will be. I’m just trying to nudge you away from this microchip interpretation.

    “It is difficult to see that the number 666 written on a person will be enough to differentiate from those who have received the mark from those who have not taken it, since anyone can obviously mark 666 on their foreheads to fool the enforcers.”

    I agree. The mark of the beast is not some physical mark!

    “What I have said in clear English, is that I believe that there will be by that time numerous technologies ( and many are evident already) that can easily be incorporated into the actual mark, and use to monitor the whereabouts of folk who have the mark and identify those that only have a pseudo mark..”

    I disagree! God also marks His people. Look at the “mark” mentioned in Revelation 13:16. Three verses later John saw a group called the 144,000 with the “Father’s name written in their foreheads” Revelation 14:1.
    So, one group gets the mark of the beast while the other group gets the Mark of God, that is, the name of God in their foreheads. Referring to the saved, the very last chapter of the Bible says, “They shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.” Revelation 22:4. Hence both saints and sinners will all have something in their foreheads one day. Does this mean that God’s people will walk around with actual visible letters written on their foreheads?
    The apostle John, who wrote Revelation, also saw an evil scarlet woman riding a beast. “And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS” Revelation 17:5. No one doubts this is a symbolic prophecy. There will be no real prostitute riding a beast and therefore the writing of that mysterious name upon her forehead is also symbolic as the woman here symbolically represents a Church.
    Was the mark the Lord set upon Cain a physical mark or was it symbolic also? Genesis 4:15 reads, “And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.” Did Cain spend the rest of his life with writing on His forehead and would anyone have acknowledged it?
    And notice this – the idea of the hand and forehead is not only found in Revelation! It is by no coincidence that Moses speaking of the Ten Commandments told the Israelites, “These Commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts…Tie them as symbols on your HANDS and bind them on your FOREHEADS” Deuteronomy 6:6, 8. Note the KJV translates “on your foreheads” to “frontlets between thine eyes” which means forehead. Again Moses said, “Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your HANDS and bind them on your FOREHEADS.” Deuteronomy 11:18. In other words, God said His Ten Commandment law was to be a sign upon our hands and foreheads. Where does the mark of the beast go? What about the Seal of God?

    QUOTE: “It is clear that prophesy is being fulfilled before or eyes and that clarity is being made to those who are discerning. Those who are ignorant and whose vision tends to 0/0 will not see, or can not see, now, then or at any other time.”

    I agree with you.

    QUOTE: “What ever form the mark takes ; by whatever form the mark is applied, monitored and enforced…”

    Does this contradicts your previous statement that those who are discerning will understand?

    QUOTE: “… God will pour out his wrath on an unbelieving people who miss the rapture.”

    You’re deceived my friend. The whole rapture theory is unscriptural. Prove to me this rapture theory using the Bible, please!

    QUOTE: You can therefore split hairs, engage in semantics and ask questions that evince your poor understanding of English.”

    You can do likewise.

    QUOTE: I think my presentation is clear and as sound as a bell.”

    You may think so. But you’re not the criterion or standard of truth.

    QUOTE: “At no time did I say that implanted microchips WILL be used.”

    I never said you said this either!

    QUOTE: “I said in clear English that there are a range of technologies now in vogue, that people take for granted and as the norm, that way well be incorporated in the mark of the beast and might be used in its application, monitoring and enforcement.”

    Not really to be honest.

    QUOTE: “You can now demonstrate that the mark of the beast has zip to do with chips or technology or any such thing!You can now demonstrate your view of how the mark will be applied, monitored and enforced.”

    Sure. I shall do this. Give me some time as it’s the long weekend here in the UK and I only have the internet at work. I shall respond on Tuesday!

    QUOTE: “It is one thing to rant, rave and ramble. It is another to present a logical thesis with information and detail that is plausible and accords with what is hap[pening currently.”

    Watch and see this happen on Tuesday!

    QUOTE: “I will remind you that when the first predictions that Christ would be hung on a tree was made, the method of death by crucifixion was not yet invented. Did God not employ via the Romans the technology of the day? Might we not wonder if he will also employ the contemporary technology in that day?”

    Fair enough.

  5. JJ Avatar
    JJ

    Hi Zoe,

    I’d like to do the same with you respectfully…

    QUOTE: “You got it all confused, what do you think the ‘Microchip’ is, if in fact this does happen to be the ‘Antichrist’ mark of the Beast, BUT SIN, the very demonic, Satanically inspired, and IMPOSED mark of the Beast, a vehement last attempt by Satan to control most of mankind, just before Jesus returns to utterly destroy the Devil, and the multitides who worshipped ‘him’ by talking his Mark!”

    You’re saying the chip is sin???? You’re the one who’s confused! Who gave you authority to define what sin is? It is God’s prerogative to define sin and His alone. His definition of sin is that SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW – 1 John 3:4.

    QUOTE: “Almighty God’s prophets, Daniel and John, both predicted that the nations of the world would ultimately surrender their ’sovereignty’ to the Antichrist in hope that he would bring security and true peace.”

    Wrong. Prove this please. The prophecies of Daniel and John show that God will destroy the nations of the world!

    QUOTE: “A large number of politicians of key nations throughout the world have abandoned belief in their nation’s sovereignty, and now belief that the only way to prevent a devasting world war, is for every nation to surender its sovereignty to a future world government, which is what this carfully planned ‘World Economic Crisis’ is all about, for without such a crisis, it would not be possible to craftly and cunningly bring about and institute, One World Government, the ‘Antichrist’ World Order.”

    Ok.

    QUOTE: “The Scriptures, God’s Word, warn that the earth will NEVER know true peace, until, the Prince of Peace comes, The Lord Jesus Christ.”

    I agree with you.

    QUOTE: “The Antichrist will use men’s deep longing for peace “to conquer” the nations of the world and force them to join his growing world government.”

    This is where you’re incorrect. This above scenario is a perverse interpretation of Scripture.

    QUOTE: “There is something mysterious and fascinating about the Mark of the Beast that has held a unique place in the minds of men for many centuries. The mark will no doubt be related to both the ‘name of the beast’ and ‘the number of his name” ‘666.’ It will indicate that the individual willingly worships the ‘beast’ the satanic Antichrist. If someone does not possess this Mark, they will not be able to buy or sell during the Great Tribulation.”

    Ok.

    QUOTE: “The universal application of this system was technically impossible until recent times, yet now the introduction of laser scans, implantable computer chips, and computerized financial systems make it very feasible.”
    You are assuming the mark is a physical piece of technology. This is a false assumption.

    QUOTE: “The introduction of this diabolical Mark of the Beast system will place humanity in an invisible economic prison. The worldwide economic and political system of the last days will be under the control of the Antichrist and the False Prophet.

    All that has and is currently transpiring with the ‘Economic Crisis’ worldwide, is no accident, that has been carefully planned and orchastrated for this express purpose, without which, the One World Government, the Antichrist world government cannot become a reality.

    Obama has been selected at this time, for this purpose, by the wicked World Order, Antichrist elite; for he is all a part of this sinister plan and plot. His charm, rhetoric, etc, etc., is part of what is needed in such a leader.”

    Ok. Tune in on Tuesday for the truth.

  6. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    JJ
    Welcome to BU
    It is interesting to meet some one on BU with some knowledge of the Word. Even though we do not agree on everything, at least you make some sense.

    Here are my views on some of the areas where we seem to disagree.

    QUOTE: “Revelation 6-19 deals generally and specifically with those who elect to deal with the sin issue according according to their own way.”
    Don’t know if I understand your wording… Please clarify.

    Revelation 6-19 deals with the judgement that will be meted out on the earth and on men, on the false church and on the world system including its commerce.
    .
    QUOTE: “You seem to be confused and inconsistent about the judgement of God. You ask WILL THE SAME GOD WHO SENT HIS ONLY SON TO DIE FOR US THEN PUNISH THESE CHILDREN WITH TOTAL FURY?”
    I’m not at all confused. The question is rhetorical with an obvious answer: No!

    I don’t agree with you since there are several verses that teach about the judgement of God. I am sure that you have read them. Perhaps you can inform me why you think that a loving God wont punish ungodly men severely in the light of 2 Peter 3:9 inter alia

    Re “The saints are in heaven in Rev 4, the aints are not!”
    Q Please kindly me enlighten me as to what you consider the phrase “ Come up hither” means in Revelation 4:1. In its primary interpretation John is addressed. Most scholars believe that this invitation also signifies the rapture. I hold to that view. I would be interested to hear you view of when the saints do go to heaven in the light of Paul’s pronouncement in 1 Thessalonians 5:10, and where you place their ascent relative to the teachings in Revelation.

    Q Why don’t you think that the saints are in heaven by Revelation 4?
    By the aints (was rhyming with saints) refer to those who have not received Jesus as Savior before the rapture.

    Q Why do you think that the 24 Elders in Revelation 4 are redeemed human beings. What is your biblical warrant for this?

    Re You are unclear what the nature of the mark will be. I’m just trying to nudge you away from this microchip interpretation.

    No one knows what the mark will be exactly.. I believe that the mark is a literal mark as I believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible including Revelation. We do know that use of microchips is prevalent by vets in the USA to monitor the whereabouts of people’s precious stray pets, and that they are also used for recording financial information. My view which I have clearly articulated is that microchips might very well be utilized in the application of the mark and its monitoring and enforcement along with several other technologies which have come on stream in let0s say (to be conservative) the last 100 years or so. You are free to disagree, but could you give your views on the possible use of any technology with respect to the mark of the beast?

    I said in my previous post that there are a range of technologies now in vogue, that people take for granted and as the norm, that way well be incorporated in the mark of the beast and might be used in its application, monitoring and enforcement. I stand by that. Life was going on as usual when the flood came, and life will be going on as usual when the rapture occurs, and when the events that occur afterwards occurs.

    I see that you don’t believe in the rapture. Please show me that there will be no rapture!

    Whereas I agree with you that God also marks the 144,000., he does not have to enforce or monitor this mark like the beast. These folk are quite willing to suffer or die for taking the mark. Can you amplify why God’s mark would be different from the Beast’s mark?

    Whereas there will be no real prostitute riding a beast but you better believe that the false church symbolized by the name MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS in Revelation 17:5 and the cosmos diabolicus and the world’s economic system that will be destroyed in Revelation 18 are prostitutes by their behavior. Even to day much of Christendom is prostituting itself for filthy lucres sake, and world governments and the banking system and other facets of the cosmos diabolicus and the world’s economic system are bone fide prostitutes!

    I understand from my studies of Hermeneutics what symbols and types and allegories and litotes etc etc are So I unders tand Genesis 4:15, ” Deuteronomy 6:6, 8 and Deuteronomy 11:18 etc

    I look forward to you demonstrating your view of how the mark of the beast will be applied, monitored and enforced.”

  7. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Hopi

    Q Do you think that the majority can defeat this beast or should we wait on Jesus Christ to come and save us from it?

    I think the best way is to accept Christ as Savior.Then you wont have to encounter the beast at all! Jesus will indeed defeat the Beast at Armageddon

    Q At what age were you conscious that you were a christian?

    I gave my heart to the Lord on 8 March 1968 at the age of 16.

    Q Were you given an option between Christ and another Saviour?
    I heard the Gospel message on the text John 12:24. Made sense to me. Nothing in my studies has caused me to change my mind.

    I cant say that I was given an option between Christ and another Saviour then; but surely everyone has a choice between Jesus and whatever all the time. Drugs, Sex Entertaiment, Money etc

  8. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @GP: “I cant say that I was given an option between Christ and another Saviour then; but surely everyone has a choice between Jesus and whatever all the time. Drugs, Sex Entertaiment [sic], Money etc

    (ROTFL…)

    If I may please give a few other examples of alternatively available believe systems as to those biased options presented by GP’s immediately above…

    Newton. Leibniz. Einstein. Heisenberg. Bohr. Mandelbrot. Penrose. Hawking.

    Et al…

  9. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    50 Evidences for the Pre-Trib Rapture

    Historical Doctrine of Imminency

    1. The early church believed in the imminency of the Lord’s return. While it can be debated which church father said what, there is a consistency in the early church on imminency which is essential to the pre-trib position and in opposition to some other positions.

    2. The Pre-trib position is the ONLY one which truly teaches imminency.

    3. The fact that there is a greater development of the doctrine in recent centuries does not preclude it from the early centuries. In the very early years of the church you see the development of great fundamentals doctrines of Trinity, Deity, God-man, canon of Scripture, etc. Following those early church councils is a time of decline in the corporate church into great apostasy. The teaching of that time are built on many of the heresies of Augustine. When the Reformation comes, there is a period of reestablishing the foundational doctrines of salvation. Now, in these last days there is both and ability and a need in the church to better understand the doctrines of eschatology and the Spirit is continuing His ministry of guiding the church in all truth.

    4. The exhortation to be comforted by the “coming of the Lord” (1Thes 4:18) is valid only in the context of the pre-trib view. It could even be a fearsome thing in a post-trib view.

    5. We are exhorted to look for the “Glorious Appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” (Titus 2:13) If there are any prophetic events (ie: tribulation) to come first, then this passage is nonsensical.

    6. Again, we are to “purify ourselves” in view of his coming.(1 John 3:2-3) If his coming is not imminent then the passage is meaningless.

    7. The church told *only* to look for the Coming of Christ. It is Israel and the tribulation saints that are told to look for signs.

    Nature of the Church

    (Those who do not understand the nature of the church as unique in the program of God will continually be confused about the nature of His coming for the church.)

    8. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any context dealing with the second coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.

    9. The church is “not appointed to wrath” (Rom 5:9; 1 Thes 1:9-10) The church cannot enter into the “great day of their wrath.”

    10. The Church will not be “overtaken by the Day of the Lord.” (1 Thes 5:1-9) (Day of the Lord is another term for the great tribulation.)

    11. The church will be “kept from the hour of testing that shall come upon all the world.” (Rev. 3:10)

    12. The believer will escape the tribulation (Luke 21:36).

    13. It is in the character of God to deliver His own from the greatest times of trial. (Lot, Rahab. Israel, Noah,etc)

    14. It is clear that there is a time interval between the translation of the church and the Return of Christ. (John 14:3)

    15. Only the pre-trib position does not divide the Body of Christ on a works principle as does partial rapture does so clearly and others to a lesser extent. It becomes a climatic finale to the grand plan of salvation by grace alone.

    16. The Scriptures are adamant that the church is undivided. In this age the church is divided by the continuing old nature in the believers. When we are glorified at the coming of Christ, the church is no more divided.

    17. The godly remnant of the tribulation has the attributes seen in OT Israel and not the church. The church is not present in the prophecies of Revelation.

    18. The pre-trib view, unlike the post-trib view does not confuse terms like elect and saints which apply to believers of all ages , as opposed to terms like church and in Christ, which apply only to those who are the body of Christ in this age.

    The Work of the Holy Spirit

    19. The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer of evil in the world. He cannot be taken out as prophesied unless the church which is indwelt by the Holy Spirit is taken out.

    20. The Holy Spirit will be taken out before the “lawless one” is revealed. That lawless one will certainly be revealed in the tribulation. In fact, the tribulation begins with the signing of the covenant between that lawless one and Israel. That act will reveal him.

    21. The “falling away” in 2 Thes 2:3 would better be understood in its context as “the departure.” This is a reference to the departure of the Holy Spirit as He indwells the church.

    22. The work of the Holy Spirit making the church like Christ where they submit to death and persecution, whereas the OT saints (see many of the Psalms) and the tribulations saints cry out for vengeance (Rev 6:10)

    The Hermeneutical Argument

    23. Only the pre-trib view allows for a truely literal interpretation in all of the OT & NT passages regarding the great tribulation.

    24. Only the pre-trib position clearly distinguishes the church and Israel and God’s dealing with each. The Necessity of an Interval of Time between the Rapture and the Second Coming

    25. All believers must appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10). This event is never mentioned in the account of events surrounding the second coming.

    26. The “four and twenty elders” in rev 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church. Therefore it is necessary that the church, undivided, be brought to glory before those events of the tribulation.

    27. There is clearly a coming of Christ for his bride before the second coming to earth. Rev 19:7-10.

    28. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary activities. These specifically include farming, construction, and giving birth. (Is 65:20-25).

    29. The Judgment of the Gentile nations following the second coming (Mat 25:31-46) indicates that both the saved and the lost are in a natural body which would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the second coming.

    30. If the translation took place at the same time as the second coming, there would be no need to separating the sheep from the goats at the subsequent judgment. The act of the translation would be the separation.

    31. The Judgment of Israel (Ez 20:34-38) occurs after the second coming and requires a regathered Israel. Again, the separation of the saved and the lost would be unnecessary if all the saved had previously been separated by a translation at the second coming.

    Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming.

    32. At the Rapture, the church meets Christ in the air. At the second coming, Christ returns to the Mt of Olives.

    33. At the time of the Rapture, the Mt of Olives is unchanged. At the second coming it is divided forming a valley east of Jerusalem.

    34. At the time of the rapture, saints are translated. No saints are translated at the time of the second coming.

    35. At the time of the rapture, the world is no judge for sin, but descends deeper into sin. At the second coming, the world is Judged by the King of kings.

    36. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance from the day of wrath, whereas the coming of Christ is a deliverance for those who have suffered under severe tribulation.

    37. The rapture is immanent whereas there are specific signs which precede the second coming.

    38. The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the NT. The second coming with the events surrounding it is prominent in both OT and NT.

    39. The rapture is only for the saved, while the tribulation and second coming deals with the entire world.

    40. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the rapture. Many signs must be fulfilled before the second coming of Christ.

    41. No passage in either OT or NT deals with the resurrection of the saints at the second coming nor mentions the translation of living saints at that same time.

    The Nature of the Tribulation

    42. Only the pre-trib view maintains the distinction between the “great tribulation” and the tribulations in general which we all experience.

    43. The great tribulation is properly understood in the pre-trib view as a preparation for the restoration of Israel. (Deut 4:29-30. Jer 30:4-11, Dan 9:24-27, Dan 12:1-2)

    44. Not one single passage in the OT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.

    45. Not one single passage in the NT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.

    46. In contrast to mid trib or pre-wrath views, the pre-trib view offers an adequate explanation for the beginning of the great tribulation in Rev 6. These others are clearly refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the great tribulation begins long before the 7th trumpet of Rev 11.

    47. There is no proper groundwork provided that the 7th trumpet of Rev is the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15. It is accepted only on the basis of assumption. The pre-trib view maintains the proper distinction between the prophetic trumpets of the church and the trumpets of the tribulation.

    48. The Unity of Daniel’s 70th week is maintained by the pre-trib view. By contrast, the mid-trib view destroys the unity and confuses the program for Israel and the church. The post trib view usually denies the clear teaching of the 70th weeks by subverting it into some form or another of allegory.

    49. The gathering of saints after the tribulation is done by angels whereas the gathering of the church is done by “The Lord Himself.”

    50. Rev 22:17-20 And the Spirit and the Bride say come. And he that heareth, let him say come … He who testifieth of these things saith “Yea, I come quickly, AMEN. COME LORD JESUS.

  10. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @BU Family… Please forgive me for this… But…

    (-1) ^ -2 == /i/. (Significantly: Out pops the imaginary plane.)

    Z = Z^2 + C, as interpreted on the complex plane. (Significantly: Out pops beautiful chaos.)

    Or, put another way… I would argue that we simple and sad humans *cannot* know everything, if the above two simple equations can produce such beauty and complexity…

  11. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Halsall, both your equations are wrong..

  12. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @Not Saved.

    Please expand on your claims.

  13. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    “I would argue that we simple and sad humans *cannot* know everything, if the above two simple equations can produce such beauty and complexity…”

    ———

    Non sequitur

  14. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    figure it out yourself

  15. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @Not Saved: “figure it out yourself

    Actually, your right. My above should have read:

    ((-1) ^ -2) ^ 2 == /i/

    I still think my equation of the Mandelbrot set is a valid form. But please let me know if I’ve made a mistake there as well.

    And, separately, I still think my root point is valid….

    (ROTFL….)

  16. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    s/your/you’re/

  17. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    sorry, still wrong

  18. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    Ah, hell… (LOL…)

    Actually, I’m wrong. I was right the first time…

    (-1) ^ -2 == /i/.

    /i/ ^ 2 == [1, -1]….

  19. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    no, still wrong

  20. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    LOL Not Saved… take him out of his misery nuh.

  21. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    MME, I knew you had to be watching…

  22. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    try fixing the mandelbrot set, its an easier correction

  23. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @Not Saved: “try fixing the mandelbrot set, its an easier correction

    Ummm… Z = Z^2 + C. Z and C are both complex numbers…

    I fail to see the error. Please feel free to put me out of my misery… (ROTFL…)

    http://www.ddewey.net/mandelbrot/

  24. Avatar
    Anonymous

    Halsall try;

    (-1)^(1/2) =i

    Z = Z^2 + C , C> (1/4)

  25. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    LOL… just because Chris does correct your grammar, you have to rough him up like that on his math? Now a Christian woulda handle dat situation wid far more compassion. 🙂

  26. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    ROTF…

    You are right. I am wrong…

    (-1) ^ (1/2) == /i/ is correct. (-1) ^ -2 is not…

    Damn… I hate it when that happens…

    MME: if I’m ever wrong about anything, I want to know about it! (LOL…)

  27. David Avatar
    David

    @Chris

    What is happening?

    How you let these people carry you on so scruffy?

    You know that you have to prepare for some licks from GP?

  28. Knight of the Long Knives Avatar
    Knight of the Long Knives

    I cant’t believe after 2000 years humans are still waiting on the Messiah and this “rapture”. I very firmly believe in God and have done a great deal of research into many religions both montheistic and “pagan” and have seen nothing to convince me that this world will come to an end at the hands of any god. While I have a great deal of respect for some of the posters here, like GP, no amount of quoted scripture will change my mind or convince me of the divinity of Jesus or of the existence of the “holy ghost” being.

  29. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @David… ROTFL…

    Hey, I made a mistake. It happens.

    Those who live by the Maths, die by the Maths…. (smile.)

  30. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    @Georgie…..On your 1st answer, didn’t the Lord say he will help those who help themselves? Where will you be when Jesus is fighting this beast at armageddon? And will he appear in the physical form?

    2nd answer… At age 16, how much knowledge of self and the world were you in possession of that you could have given your ‘heart’ to Jesus?

    And how does John 12:24 relate to you? How did you die and bring forth fruit? And did you at any one point and time question your religious beliefs? Have you ever given thought to other ideologies outside of what is written in the bible? Did you ever say to yourself that maybe the TRUTH and POWER is somewhere INSIDE of me and not some external source?

    Is there any spiritual purpose to the Pineal Gland?

  31. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    @KotLK, like your name should be Dark Knight… you trying to start up Zoe or wha?

    @Chris, don’t worry about it… best to laugh at (and learn from) your mistakes… unless of course you were designing a bridge or a plane… then you’ll want Not Saved to do a peer review first bo. 🙂

    By the way… it would probably have been more appropriate to say imaginary axis (or dimension) rather than “imaginary plane”. 🙂

  32. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Hopi Hopi what a naughty girl
    Q1 – didn’t the Lord say he will help those who help themselves?
    Actually that concept is Bajan and not found anywhere in the Bible.

    Q2 Where will you be when Jesus is fighting this beast at armageddon? And will he appear in the physical form?

    According to Jude 14 and other Scriptures, I expect to be close by in the throng watching him doing it single handedly.
    He is expected to come visibly in physical form according to scriptures like Acts 1:11

    Q3 2nd answer… At age 16, how much knowledge of self and the world were you in possession of that you could have given your ‘heart’ to Jesus?
    Probably none and none, but I don’t regret it Hopi. Just imagine if I wasn’t a believer I might have joined the BLP when I was approached in my front yard after the massive defeat in 1987.

    Q4 And how does John 12:24 relate to you? How did you die and bring forth fruit?
    That requires an exegesis of the passage. It is the Lord that died to bring forth fruit here though.

    Q And did you at any one point and time question your religious beliefs?
    Some times I wonder why are the wicked seemingly prospering, and why are idiots getting by? But I am comforted by several scriptures.

    Q Have you ever given thought to other ideologies outside of what is written in the bible? NO
    Q Did you ever say to yourself that maybe the TRUTH and POWER is somewhere INSIDE of me and not some external source?
    NO
    Q- Is there any spiritual purpose to the Pineal Gland?

    LOL I don’t know Hopi

    @ Knight of the Long Knives

    Re I cant’t believe after 2000 years humans are still waiting on the Messiah and this “rapture”. MANY FOLK ALL OVER THE WORLS ARE

    Re I …….. have seen nothing to convince me that this world will come to an end at the hands of any god.

    Man it seems you have not grasped the argument in 2 Peter 3 Knighty!

  33. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @MME… Thank for your above.

    I’m very comfortable laughing.

    Especially at myself…. 😎

  34. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    @ JJ, “You’re saying the chip is SIN?”

    No, anymore than a Gun is Sin; it is what it represents, IF, in fact the ‘chip’ is used ultimately as the Mark of the Beast, then, IT represents the very symbol of SIN, that is obvious, isn’t it!

    I know exactly where you are coming from, JJ, I can smell a ‘rat’ plainly in some of your comments, an obvious ‘Sabbatarian’ no doubt!

    Can’t waite to hear your hermeneutics on ‘the truth’ Tuesday, Can’t waite!! Bring it on!!!

  35. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    I figured as much Zoe. I hope you can exegete Galatians, cause we will have some real LAW goo being spouted. You always got to look for the googly with these folk.

  36. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Yes, GP, exegesis on Galatians, and much more, much more!!

  37. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @GP
    Your bible knowledge is indeed impressive…. a reflection no doubt of your alma mater, and the Bushman is appropriately impressed.

    One of my pet theories (and you know that there are many…) is that the bible was never intended to explain God’s will to mankind. The line of argument being that, in exactly the same way in which Jesus spoke in parables in order to avoid providing answers to the public, the bible is deliberately confused and misleading for the very same reason.

    Obviously, if the intent was to explain God’s purpose and be a manual for mankind, the bible could have been laid out in a manner to do that quite easily.
    Does Isaiah 28 not clearly indicate that God’s intent is to provide knowledge to those who ‘are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breast?’ (children ) who come with an open mind and unbiased attitude?

    Verses 10 and 11 seem clearly to suggest a deliberate effort to mix up and confuse others with the word that is assembled ‘with foreign lips and strange tongues’…

    This concept is probably better understood where Jesus spoke in parables for the expressed purpose of avoiding explaining spiritual concepts to those listening to him. To me the reason is obvious – so that this knowledge is not especially available exclusive to the likes of those originating from Crumpton Street, or those otherwise able to follow those complex formulas routinely used by MME, CH and Not Saved (LOL).

    In light of this, how confident are you in the degree to which you place such emphasis on bible study and bible scholarship?
    Are you not especially concerned that practically all of your precepts are prescribed by your particular faith? – Which you then use the bible to support…while others use it to support the opposite.
    Would you not be much more comfortable with your faith had you been able to develop your knowledge (like a child) independently of prescribed dogma?

    This particular Bush Tea theory also postulates that BBE has written their great plan right in front of our eyes in the design, form and structure of nature all around us.
    In particular, is the analogy of procreation, with the church as the woman, believers as the potential children being conceived and nurtured, and even the labour and pains of the woman as childbirth nears tell us much more about God’s higher level plans than does the ‘strange tongues and foreign lips’ of the bible.

    Just as I always worry when Christians quote Jesus’ parables in order to make spiritual points, your’s and Zoe’s total reliance on the words of the bible as your final point of truth worries me also. Surely we should be able to justify our faith on a much broader foundation than just the bible. Surely nature, science, and life around us all reflect the glory and truth of God.
    Even the evil and chaos that Rohan likes to highlight must fit perfectly into the glorious plan- otherwise we have every reason to be concerned about our understanding of the gospel.

    ….would you suggest that I ditch this theory too? ROTFL

  38. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    I see Chris was rescued.

  39. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Bush Tea
    Thanks for your kind remarks

    I know that you believe that the bible was never intended to explain God’s will to mankind because if the intent was to explain God’s purpose and be a manual for mankind, the bible could have been laid out in a manner to do that quite easily.

    I am sure that you could bring many valid reasons to support your view that the bible is deliberately confused and misleading, and that you can support your argument by the parables of Jesus as a good example.

    I agree with you in some areas but I disagree with you also to some degree also, because the Bible claims in Romans 12:1 that God wishes believers to be transformed to his will. I believe that to understand the Bible you must be a believer, and a believer in the Bible and have the Holy Spirit residing in you since I John 2:20 & 27 calls him the resident tutor. There are very books whose author is readily available to explain its content. So it is possible to know God’s will for one’s life. Though I cant say honestly that it is an easy thing. Maybe I am not holy or godly enough. This is not something that I am very confident about.

    With respect to understanding the word, that is a different story, but it requires STUDY to make your self approved according to 2 Tim 2:15. Once you have the Spirit you are a long way there if you study. There is a biblical principle that I invoke in teaching and studying anything. It is found in Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.

    I was fortunate to have good teachers in Sunday school and church from age 16-22 where I really got a good grounding by men who taught me things like Coopers law, and not to take the text out of context, and about various methods of Bible study etc. as a student and wrote for books by R B Thieme and out lines by J Vernon McGee and read simple study booklets by Homer Duncan and Dr De Haan. Then I bought cheap commentaries etc Then I practiced these methods and tried to master a Bible book, starting with the shortest books like Jude and 2 & 3 John and 2 Peter and Obadiah etc. Or I would try to master a topic, then another topic. I found that the more I did this that it was like filling in a jig saw puzzle- WHICH IS WHAT THE BIBLE IS REALLY. It was designed to be understood by those who work at trying to understand it. Many of us dont because we were told it is difficult much like how some of us hated Maths or Latin or what ever at school.

    I have read commentaries on Hebrews by men that summarize the difficult Pauline arguments like if they were drinking Campbells soup. I have read commentaries on by men that can outline a passage like them women in Oistins does scale and bone flying fish, and I just sit in awe and try to emulate them man LOL

    Jesus spoke in parables because they were things the religious leaders would not understand anyway, and things he didn’t want them to understand. Yet he turned around and explained it to his disciples.

    But I promise you that if you trace it, you will see that God has always told his people what he planned to do . Come with me
    ADAM Genesis 3:15 et secq After he messed up God told him how the Savior would come and fix things.
    ABEL cf Hebrews 11 & Jude and I John 3: 12 etc brought the right sacrifice according to the principle that without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sin. (Hid brother knew too, because he was God’s man too but he kept messing up even after a second chance.
    ENOCH Genesis 5:24 Hebrews 11 & Jude 14. Jude tells us that this man prophesied about the second coming. Can you imagine that? He was the first man to go to heaven without dieing.
    NOAH was told to prepare for the flood
    ABRAHAM God would not destroy Sodom without telling this man. From Galatians 3 we know he told him about salvation’s plan. Note his great statement in Gen 22:8 God will provide HIMSELF a sacrifice. Get the word order correct and you will see the depth of the theology here. Not only would God provide the sacrifice HE would be THE SACRIFICE as taught also in 2 Cor 5:21! He was MADE SIN for us, who knew no sin.
    JACOB predicted the life course of his sons in Gen 48 because God told him
    JOSEPH could interpret dreams and advise Pharoah because God told him what he would do
    MOSES SAMUEL DANIEL ELIJAH maybe Bush Tea, who knows etc

    Bush Tea! I done wid you man. Before I could start wid you pun Isaiah 28 as above you quoting the chapter! Who teaching this class? Me or you? LOL I love it Sir!

    Verses 10 -12 means that yuh does add on a little learning a bit at a time. Ya does do it in steps piece by piece. LoL
    I agree with your interpretation that God’s intent is to provide knowledge to those who ‘are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breast?’ (children ) who come with an open mind and unbiased attitude? This accords well with 2 Peter 2:2, 1 Cor3:2 and Hebrews 5 :12b-13. You cant eat the meat of the word until you grasp the milk.
    Hence precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little. LOL

    This concept is probably better understood where Jesus spoke in parables for the expressed purpose of avoiding explaining spiritual concepts to those listening to him. To me the reason is obvious – so that this knowledge is not especially available exclusive to the likes of those originating from Crumpton Street, or those otherwise able to follow those complex formulas routinely used by MME, CH and Not Saved (LOL). BUT TO THOSE WITH A DESIRE TO REALLY KNOW WHAT HE WANTED THEM TO KNOW. HE WANTED GOOD SOIL IN THESE FOLK WHO WOULD DO WHAT HE TAUGHT UNLIKE THE SCOFFING PHARISEES AND JEWISH LEADERS
    In light of this, how confident are you in the degree to which you place such emphasis on bible study and bible scholarship? VERY CONFIDENT.

    It is pure pleasure for me when I meet with some good men standing up and talking about the word for hours. Men teaching you and learning from you at the same time.. Man I burn out a few electric kettles that way already man .

    Are you not especially concerned that practically all of your precepts are prescribed by your particular faith? – Which you then use the bible to support…while others use it to support the opposite.

    Generally men from my denomination will be sound in my view. Many evangelicals tend to believe much of the same things. Some will differ on a few things. So you argue with them back and forth and this can be fun, depending on the men.
    BUT generally I FIND THAT MEN WHO REALLY STUDY THE WORD FOR THEM SELVES, AND CAN READ A BOOK OR LISTEN TO A SERMON AND SIFT OUT ERROR FROM TRUTH independent of where they worship, will give you a good time in discussion when you meet. LOL

    Would you not be much more comfortable with your faith had you been able to develop your knowledge (like a child) independently of prescribed dogma? EVERY DENOMINATION HAS DOGMA. THE THING IS TO DISTINGUISH DOCTRINE FROM DOGMA. Doctrine is Biblical! Dogma is man made. That’s where the trouble comes from.

    Re This particular Bush Tea theory also postulates that BBE has written their great plan right in front of our eyes in the design, form and structure of nature all around us.
    In particular, is the analogy of procreation, with the church as the woman, believers as the potential children being conceived and nurtured, and even the labour and pains of the woman as childbirth nears tell us much more about God’s higher level plans than does the ‘strange tongues and foreign lips’ of the bible. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WID DIS

    Just as I always worry when Christians quote Jesus’ parables in order to make spiritual points YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL HOW YOU QUOTE PARABLES like quoting any other scripture . Remember a parable is an illustration. We must be careful in spiritualizing them.

    , your’s and Zoe’s total reliance on the words of the bible as your final point of truth worries me also. Surely we should be able to justify our faith on a much broader foundation than just the bible. WHY THE EARLY CHRISTIANS FOLLOWED THE NT We read in Acts 2:42 They continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine etc

    Surely nature, science, and life around us all reflect the glory and truth of God. THIS IS TRUE AND THE BIBLE TEACHES THIS

    What does ROTFL mean?

  40. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    BT, All of the theological training that GP and myself have did not ‘Save’ us, from the penalty of ‘Sin’ Only, The Lord Jesus Christ, His death, and glorious Resurrection on the third day, DID!

    We both came to Christ relatively young, by His Grace, through Faith; and our lives, like multitudes over the centuries have being literally ‘transformed’ from within, as mankind needs a ‘spiritual’ heart transplant, and only Jesus can do this.

    While we write much theological exposition, that’s for the purpose of correctly ‘dividing’ His Word, BUT, you’ll never really understand much of it, until, you come as we first did, and experience the greatest miracle anyone can ever receive, the ‘Miracle’ of the New Birth, being Born Again, Justified, declared by His Grace and Mercy, NOT GUILTY any more, no words can aptly describe the liberty, joy, peace, and the new purpose for living, until you make that decision, by child like faith.

    There are numerous testimonies of every kind of person, from hard line Atheists, Agnostics, Scientists, you name it, that finally gave up trying to figure out, what only Almighty God knows, who have found true, genuine, real meaning for living in The Lord Jesus Christ.

    The paradox of coming to Jesus, is, that surrender brings real, true Victory!!!

  41. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @GP /Zoe
    It is indeed a blessing to be able to discourse so openly and publicly with you two in this forum.
    I have to tell you however, that I feel as though I am between two extremes, with you two way out on the right and Rohan way out on the left (meanwhile, MME sitting there with a beer in hand ROTFL) (rolling on the floor laughing GP)

    GP, you tend to agree with my points and then somehow come to a different conclusion. Let us deal with one point at a time:

    Are you seriously trying to sell bloggers that understanding the bible is contingent on dedicated study and having access to good books/ teachers?

    Come on GP. I can buy a complex electronic system from japan and in 20 minutes with the manual written by Kim Yang Ho, I can know everything there is to know about that system.
    Are you telling me that God who created the universe needs good teachers to explain his manual?

    It is FAR more plausible that the INTENT is that it should NOT be seen as a manual.

    Even if you were correct, this would create a system where mostly Harrisonians would end up being saved…. and we all know what chaos THAT would create.LOL

    Consider this:
    The reality of the modern world is built on exactly what you propose – namely, that human beings who happen to be intellectually gifted tends to rise to the top. (because they understand what they read, comprehend complex formulas etc).
    WHERE HAS THAT GOT US?

    God’s approach is NOT based on intellectual aptitude and THUS the design is such that the ability to reason, and study IS OF NO ACCOUNT in comprehending his great plan, or in achieving spiritual success.

    BBE’s science is way ahead of our flawed precepts GP.

    @Zoe
    Stop beating your own chest please.
    What saved what?!!
    Do you understand Paul’s admonishment to the Philippians in 2:12 to ‘work out you own salvation in fear and trembling’ (ie with ongoing seriousness)….. so that I may boast ON THE DAY OF CHRIST that I did not labour in vain….2:16

    No one is ‘saved’ until that day comes when you are born of the spirit.
    Same answer Jesus gave to Nicodemus’s DIRECT question.

    …remember REAL blindness is in those who WILL not see…(as opposed to those who cannot see..)

  42. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    BT, A little knowledge can be dangerous and very misleading!

    You say, “What saved what?” “No one is ‘saved’ until that day comes when you are born of the Spirit.”

    Q. What does the Word of God, the Bible say concerning the ‘Salvation’ of the saints? Can we know for sure, that we are Saved?

    Ans: Absolutely yes!

    Assurance of Salvation:

    Assurance of a thing, can be defined as ‘freedom from doubt, firmeness of mind, confidence, to make sure or certain.’ It has also been defined as ‘a pledge or guarantee; the state of being sure or certain, security.’ Theologically, we may say ‘Assurance of Salvation is the inner knowledge that God has forgiven us IN Christ and accepted us in His beloved Son’ (Eph. 1:6).

    Amplification:

    The scriptures teach that the ‘believer’ should have assurance of salvation and acceptance before God. This is made abundantly clear from I Thessalonians 1:5; where Paul asserts “I KNOW in whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have commited unto Him against that day” (II tim 1:12). Our confidence is in Him, Jesus Christ, who gives us this assurance of Salvation.

    John in his epistle, used the word “KNOW” over 40 times and assured the believer that he may ‘KNOW’ of his salvation and acceptance in God through Christ. Therefore, the justified, believer does NOT presume when he has confidence in the ‘promises’ of God through Jesus Christ ( I John 2:3, 20, 29; 3:14, 19-21, 24; 4:6, 16-17; 5: 18).

    Three aspects of Assurance.

    1) The believer is to have full assurance of faith for Salvation (Heb. 10:22).

    2) The believer is to have full assurance of understanding (Col. 2:2).

    3) The believer is to have full assurance of hope unto the end (Heb. 6:11).

    The justified, Saved believer experiences this assurance for ever because of peace and righteousness in the Lord Jesus Christ (Isa. 32: 17) whom God raised from the dead ( Acts 17:31).

    Means of Assurance:

    1) The testimony of the ‘Word of God.’ This is the external evidence and testimony. ‘It is written’ ( I John 5: 1-2; 3:3, 13, 14, 20, 21, 29: 5: 15-20; John 3:36; 5:24).

    2) The testimony of the Holy Spirit. This is the internal evidence. He that believes has the witness in himself ( I John 5: 9-12; 3:19; John 16:8; Romans 8:16; Gal. 4:6; II Cor. 1:2). The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are ‘born again’ and are children of the living God.

    3) The testimony of a clear conscience. The life a person lives should be in harmony with the Word of God. This is the outward evidence of the inner Christ-life. This also assures the heart before the Lord (I John 3:14; II Cor 13:5).

    Yes, Salvation is essentially over three stages in the life of the justified believer.

    1) Instant justification, at the point of sincere Repentence and Faith in Christ as Saviour and Lord. Thus Saved.

    2) Sanctification, being set apart over our earthly sojourn on earth, being more and more conformed to the image our our Saviour Jesus Christ. Continuation of being Saved.

    3) Our ultimate Glorification, when we die and enter the presence of Our Lord.
    Hence, finally and completely Saved.

    Dangers of Backsliding:

    Yes, there are many warnings given to the believer against backsliding or drawing back from following the Lord. They are inapplicable to the spiritually unregenerate, or to the unforgiven sinner. All of these warnings become meaningless to the believer if there is absolutely no possibilty of falling from the state of grace. Some of the major warnings against backsliding are found in the Old and New Testament.

    So, it is against the overall aspect of Salvation, which is a ‘free’ gift paid for in ‘FULL’ by Jesus’ atoning Death and Resurrection, (Eph. 2: 8-9), as it CANNOT be earned or worked for, that Paul earnestly exhorts the Philippian Christians to:

    “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always ‘obeyed’ not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work ‘out’ ( not work for!) your own salvation with fear and trembling; for IT IS God who works IN YOU both to will and to DO for His good pleasure.” (Phil. 2: 12, 13) emphasis added.

    The point that is stressed here, IS NOT working for ones salvation, but, the view of obedience to Christ and His Lordship. Paul is not teaching that one’s salvation is dependent on one’s continued works, BUT, that salvation must express itself in progressive Christian living and upright character, not only individually, but through obedient participation in God’s coporate call to a local church.

    One of the most absolute assurances given to the Justified believer is found in I John 5: 11-13:

    “And this IS the testimony; that God HAS GIVEN us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son HAS LIFE, he who does NOT have the Son of God does NOT have life.”

    “These things I have written to you who believe in the Name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW that you have eternal life (Are Saved!) and that you may continue to believe in the Name of the Son of God.”

  43. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    @Georgie Porgie……When I asked you about the Lord helping…..’ I did NOT quote any chp:verse from the Bible, so I don’t know why you went to the Bible. Anyhow, hasn’t ‘God’ ever spoken DIRECTLY to you or do you always have to turn to the bible to hear from him? (Talk about that PG later)

  44. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    Man Zoe, I do not know how I can help you!!!
    I have repeatedly pointed out to you the obvious danger of solving a problem by starting from a perceived solution (i.e. you are ‘saved’ and hence somehow the bible can be used to prove this)

    Why can we not just identify the challenge and explore ALL the possible answers before trying to zero in on the most plausible explanation – whatever common sense and reason leads that to be?

    …seriously! How on earth can having “full assurance of the hope of salvation” be interpreted as being saved?
    …even if you KNEW that your earthly father legally appointed you as heir and you were ASSURED of inheriting his millions when he died – That would not mean that you are now RICH…. just that you are assured of riches ON the day he dies (actually after the lawyers get through with you LOL)….. but that is just a small point.

  45. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    @ BT
    RE GP, you tend to agree with my points and then somehow come to a different conclusion.

    This is because I think that there are some things that you dont understand fully

    Q Are you seriously trying to sell bloggers that understanding the bible is contingent on dedicated study and having access to good books/ teachers?
    YES & NO

    Understanding the bible is contingent PRIMARILY on having the Holy Spirit on board. He is the ultimate author of the Bible, and the resident tutor if you do, as taught in 1 John 2:20 & 27! The Holy Spirit as resident tutor will help your spiritual understanding immensely. cf I Cor 2:14 is an important verse in this context. You cant understand much if anything without Him.

    Second you have to STUDY, as ordered in 2 Tim 2:15. I don’t know or understand half as much as some of the great authors I have read because I have not studied half as much as they studied. I often marvel at these men’s comprehension.

    Re I can buy a complex electronic system from japan and in 20 minutes with the manual written by Kim Yang Ho, I can know everything there is to know about that system. I AGREE WITH THAT, BUT THE BIBLE IS JUST NOT MERELY A MANUAL FROM GOD.

    It is aliving and dynamic and up todate book . It is a spiritual book and so it needs the Spirit to help interpret it.

    Q Are you telling me that God who created the universe needs good teachers to explain his manual? YES & NO
    NO. Anyone who has the Spirit of God which is given at salvation according to texts like 1 John 4:13; Ephesians 1:13; 4;30; 2 Cor 1:22 & 5:5; 1 Cor 1:12 can understand the Bible, if they study it, just like I had to study medicine.

    So all the Harrisonian types who are not saved and have not the Spirit CAN NOT understand the Bible or Spiritual things. I want you to understand that my God given intellect though enhancing my ability to understand is certainly NOT the primary facet in my understanding of the Word.

    YES Good teachers facilitates the process. Sometimes all you need is to read a chapter outline by a good teacher and the light shines through the fog of all your so called big brain intellect! LOL

    e.g in the Pauline epistles where the going often gets rough you need some one just to tell you what is the background to the metaphor the man using at any point in time.

    Like say in Galatians 4:4 when he says when the fullness of time was come…. “pleroma en chronos”, you need to understand that he gone agriculture.

    Bushman it does give me grief to try to explain the sweetness of the concept of the fullness to these Americans in the city who have not grown up as we did with “an eye for the pleroma”, man.

    Here me man. “ Back where I come from a breadfruit is green when it is green, and green when its ripe, but we know when its FULL and READY to pick. Every little boy knows when a fruit like a mango is FULL and READY to pick even before it turns yellow. That is pleroma en chronos for little boys thiefing fruit! That’s what Paul means by the “fullness of time” was come!
    All Paul saying is that Christ came when the time was ripe!

    The time was ripe because of
    1- the forced PAX ROMA
    2- the universal use of the koine greek at the time (in which the NT was written) &
    3- the extent of Roman roads throughout the known world which facilitated rapid spread of the gospel when the early Christian church was persecuted.

    Have you ever heard the songs WILL YOUR ANCHOR HOLD IN THE STORMS OF LIFE or THOUGH THE ANGRY SURGES ROLL. These songs are based on the text of Hebrews 6:19-20. Here Paul used for his illustration a port scene common in his day.

    In those days when harbor bottoms were uneven and thus hazardous, ships were tied up outside the port. The main ANCHOR, however, was then put in a boat called the FORERUNNER and taken into the port and secured firmly to the ROCK(s) in port by way of a strong cable (HOPE) until the tide rose. Paul is saying from the context that we who have fled for refuge (in Christ) to lay hold upon the hope (Christ) set before us.

    Then he continues his argument of verse 18 and before, by stating his beautiful port scene illustration in verses 19-20 which reads ……..Which HOPE we have as an ANCHOR of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the FOREFUNNER is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

    THE ANCHOR THE FORERUNNER the strong cable (HOPE) & the ROCK all refer to the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Now tell me Bush man aint that real sweet! That really gives you a pleroma man ! Its like seeing a man ease a fast bowler through the covers!

    So you see once you have the Spirit you can understand MOST texts. The more passages you study you can find relations for yourself as my little list about having the Spirit. But if you find good books or have good teachers you can do it faster and better. And all a good teacher or book might do is OPEN A DOOR for you to meditate on that passage and get fresh nuggets of truth as you relate it to other passages all CORECTLY DIVIDED IN THEIR RESPECT CONTEXTS! LOL

    So you see I DO AGREE with you partially that “God’s approach is NOT based on intellectual aptitude and THUS the design is such that the ability to reason, and study IS OF NO ACCOUNT in comprehending his great plan, or in achieving spiritual success.”

    You cannot understand spiritual truths by your intellect at all. Intellect is of no value without the Spirit. I have heard uneducated men preach the gospel message and the Word in general like giants. We are told that Dwight Moody, one of the greatest preachers the world as ever known was uneducated!

    RE It is FAR more plausible that the INTENT is that it should NOT be seen as a manual.
    It is only a manual for those who accept it as a manual. Such folk seek to find the instruction therein for them. Often we don’t obey what we see or believe or know, because the new man ( the Spirit) is constantly fighting the old natural man within as taught by Paul in Romans 7.

    Re Even if you were correct, this would create a system where mostly Harrisonians would end up being saved…. and we all know what chaos THAT would create.LOL

    You are NOT SAVED BY INTELLECT OR WORKS . See Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5, Romans4:4-5, WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST hence many if not most of the Harrisonian type of this world are LOST! And hopelessly so.And they canot understand the Word.

    There are of course many Harrisonian type of this world and many Harrisonians who are indeed saved, however! So your intellect or wealth or position does not help you to be saved. There is no advantage in any of these.

    I like the Scripture in 1 Cor 1 that says not MANY noble. Note it does not say not ANY noble LOL

    Re The reality of the modern world is built on exactly what you propose – namely, that human beings who happen to be intellectually gifted tends to rise to the top. (because they understand what they read, comprehend complex formulas etc). WHERE HAS THAT GOT US?

    This is only partly so. Many human beings who happen to be intellectually gifted DO NOT rise to the top because they are envied or just don’t belong to this world system (the cosmos diabolicus.) This is so even in Christendom!

    Do you realize that many features of the cosmos diabolicus involves a lot of homosexuals, for example!- besides other deviant and aberrant behavior.

    Re your response to Zoe viz:-
    Do you understand Paul’s admonishment to the Philippians in 2:12 to ‘work out you own salvation in fear and trembling’ (ie with ongoing seriousness)….. so that I may boast ON THE DAY OF CHRIST that I did not labour in vain….2:16 No one is ’saved’ until that day comes when you are born of the spirit.

    You need a good detention BT! And maybe to be put to stand on the bench and a floogging too man! BT the text in Philippians 2:12 says TO WORK OUT your salvation, not WORK FOR! As the little girl told her mom after church one day on hearing this text preached “ MOM YOU CANT WORK IT OUT IF IT HAS NOT BEEN ALREADY WORKED IN!”

    See Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5, Romans4:4-5 etc and 2 Timothy 1:9 which reads who (i.e God) hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but according to his own purpose and grace…………..

    Ephesians 2:10 comes after Ephesians 2:8-9 for a very good reason LOL

    Believers who accept Christ by faith in Christ are saved! We can KNOW that we are saved ! See I John 3:2 Beloved now are we the TEKNON (children of God i.e in the family and placed as sons according to the doctrine of the adoption of sons as taught exclusively by Paul) …..

    Read also I John 5: 9-13
    5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
    5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
    5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
    5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
    5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    Read also John 3:18 and 36 and note that the tense of the verb “have” is the present tense. It means to have and continue to have, NOT WILL HAVE.

    I think I tried to explain to you recently the concept of POSITIONAL SANCTIFICATION or justification (really to understand all this fully you need to study what we call the Doctrine of salvation, which is a multifaceted concept involving reconciliation adoption etc.) Chaffer, the first President of Dallas Theological Seminary was able to identify 32 different benefits the believer acquires at the moment of receiving Chris.
    PRACTICAL SANCTIFICATION here is where the Phil 2:12 comes in
    And PERFECT SANCTIFICATION . Paul calls it receiving the END of your salvation. In other words at the day of Christ also called the rapture, we will be completely saved from sin and the world scene etc.

    Hope this helps

  46. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    @ GP….

    Where or when did the first sin occur?

  47. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Bush Tea
    Man Bush Tea , I do not know how I can help you! You wont listen to teacher LOL

    While I was responding to you it seems that Zoe tear some holes in you .

    Re I have repeatedly pointed out to you the obvious danger of solving a problem by starting from a perceived solution (i.e. you are ’saved’ and hence somehow the bible can be used to prove this)

    But the facts Dear BT is that the salvation problem has been solved. We either accept it or not. You either accept the Bible as the sole authority for faith and practice or not. If you do ought to seek to use the Bible to solve problems of a spiritual nature, and sometimes of a physical or financial nature. Like the Bible declares in Proverbs that you better not back a loan for anyone. I wish I had read that before I did!

    Re Why can we not just identify the challenge and explore ALL the possible answers before trying to zero in on the most plausible explanation – whatever common sense and reason leads that to be?

    That is not always necessary BT. If you come to me with appendicitis there is no need to explore nuttin man, except the inside of your abdomen to ensure there is no infection around when the appendix is removed.

    Man Paul would say to you as he said to the Colossians in chapter 2:6-8

    6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it[a] with thanksgiving.
    8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
    Re …seriously! How on earth can having “full assurance of the hope of salvation” be interpreted as being saved?

    Actually he is right! Put it this way BT. When one is saved he HAS and continues to have “full assurance of the hope of salvation.” That does not mean that you do not obey the injunction of 2 Peter 1: 10 which reads
    Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

    Re
    …even if you KNEW that your earthly father legally appointed you as heir and you were ASSURED of inheriting his millions when he died – That would not mean that you are now RICH…. just that you are assured of riches ON the day he dies (actually after the lawyers get through with you LOL)….. but that is just a small point.

    Wrong again BT! And it is a big point. Paul certainly thought so. LOL
    Romans 8: 14 -17 is instructive
    14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    15. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    In verse 17 we are told that we ARE even now (note present tense) joint-heirs with Christ
    But verse 19 says in effect that we are waiting to take up this inheritance
    19. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
    Yet when you turn to that amazing passage in Ephesians 1: 2-11, speaking of the same inheritance the verbs are all in the past tense. In other words in Ephesians Paul is saying you already have your inheritance POSITIONALLY, and spiritually. It is as though it is already done In Romans 8 he is stressing you will experience the reality of it all at Jesus’ coming. Se also 1 Peter 1:3-5

    Why can he say this without being contradictory you ask? Because the testator (i.e the father in your illustration) is already DEAD! And it is through HIS DEATH that our inheritance is secured.
    See Hebrews 9: 16-17
    16. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
    17. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

  48. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Technician
    Re Where or when did the first sin occur?

    The first sin(s) RECORDED in the Bible is eating the forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden in Genesis 3.

    I say sins because it seems that ur fore fathers disregarded the concept given by John in 1 John 2: 16. i.e
    the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. Our forefathers breached all three of the major types of sin as classified in this text as clearly reported in Genesis 3 where we read

    when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food, and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES, and a tree TO BE DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISE……….then she took.

    In Luke 4 & Mathew 4 we see that Jesus overcame when tempted by the devil in all three of these areas.

    Back to your question though, you might want to argue, and reasonably so that the first sin was rebellion by the angel Lucifer aka Satan the devil as revealed to and recorded by Isaiah.

    I think it is this lack of chronology that helps to make studying the Bible to some folk like my friend BT! LOL

  49. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Hopi

    Re When I asked you about the Lord helping…..’ I did NOT quote any chp:verse from the Bible, so I don’t know why you went to the Bible.

    LOL Habit! Plus its so much fun.

    Q. Anyhow, hasn’t ‘God’ ever spoken DIRECTLY to you or do you always have to turn to the bible to hear from him?
    I have never heard him speak audibly. But he speaks in the mind and via the Word definitely.

    Example;
    Say you meditating or reading the Word or listening to good Bible teaching or even watching the News. You can “hear” Him say “ MAN GP YOU GUIILTY OF THAT SAME SIN!”

  50. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    @ GP….you saw that coming a mile away..LOL.

    That was exactly what I was getting at. If heaven was a perfect place, then how could Lucifer have even had those thoughts much less acted on them?
    Could it be then, that it was not a perfect place?
    If after the rapture, we are all supposed to live in harmony, how do we know that this will not start all over again as happened with God and Lucifer in the beginning?
    What confuses me is how can an angel sin and since it it obvious that he did ( creation of the Devil), what guarantees do we have that it will never reoccur.

    NB….I was put out of my Sunday school class for this same line of questioning.

    Next question….if God does make a mistake…how would we know? what way would we have of realizing ?….What if?

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