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Mark of the Beast
Mark of the Beast

It is no secret that there is a constituency which dwells in the Barbados Underground who enjoys a robust religious debate. In recent times there has been rich discussion about the Jewish Talmud, The Promises of God and currently The Bible And The Qur’an, Brothers Kept Apart. This group is comprised of Atheists, Agnostics, Christians and  others, we even noticed the description Apathiest.

Surprisingly to the BU household the religious conversation has attracted a healthy following based on what we see from back here. We hope that we are not twisting any arms but there are some Christian events which require clarification.

  • The BU household wishes to ask our religious luminaries to explain how they perceive revelations linked to  the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls can potentially reshape religion as we know it.
  • Explain the Mark of the Beast and the much discussed the coming of the Anti-Christ.

Attached is a Power Point Presentation which has been in circulation for sometime which some believe is the Mark of the Beast exposed!

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820 responses to “The Mark Of The Beast, The Coming Of The Anti-Christ,The Dead Sea Scrolls”

  1. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Here are the main Scripture verses on 666, the mark of the beast:

    Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

    Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

    Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. (666)

    There are several passages on the Antichrist and his rise to power and there is an important relationship between The Antichrist and the Mark of the Beast to be grasped.

  2. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Who is the beast?

    Just as there is the Trinity; God the Father, God the Son & God the HOly Spirit , in the end time Satan will also have his countefeit trinity The Dragon (Satan himself), The Beast & the False Prophet. The dragon is introduced in Revelation 12 has having been cast out from heaven. He is no longer allowed to present himself to acuse the saints as is taught in Job and Zechariah 3.

    The Dragon (Satan himself) will empower the beast as seen in Revelation 13:2.

    What is his mark? 666

    The mark of the beast will be a literal, physical combination of letters and symbols. It will be permanently and prominently engraved or tatooed on the forehead or right hand of each person who gets the mark of the beast as taught in Revelation 13:16,17.

    “He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.”

  3. kiki Avatar
    kiki

    Did you know that the inverse of ‘Live’ is ‘Evil’ and ‘Lived’ is ‘Devil’?
    So live right and the Devil won’t get a look in.

  4. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Is the VeriChip the Mark of the Beast?

    Currently the VeriChip is not the mark of the beast, because the mark of the beast will only be offered after the beast has come, and after the rise of antichrist.

    Antichrist will rise only after the rapture as clearly taught in 2 Thessalonians 2. So clearly, the VeriChip is not the mark of the beast at this time.
    .
    The VeriChip is a small radio frequency identification device. It has an identification number and it is the size of a grain of rice. The VeriChip is implanted in the human body. It is currently used in some countries for medical information, and for banking issues.

    By itself the VeriChip is not the mark of the beast. But at some point in the future it COULD be part of the physical mark that is put on a person’s forehead or right hand.

    It is possible that a VeriChip could be implanted in the forehead or right hand as a part of the mark of the beast, especially in the more industrialized countries.

    I have for many years (like many other believers) been wondering what the Mark of the Beast could be. NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE.

    From a teen, I used to think that just a mark 666 would not be enough to achieve the control that the mark is supposed to exert. After all the mark of the beast is an outward, physical symbol, showing that the wearer has chosen to worship the beast and receive him as God.

    The mark of the beast will be enforced. The mark of the beast will be placed on people who worship the beast and choose to receive his mark. And there will be severe penalties for refusing the mark as one will be unable to buy or sell without it.

    The mark will be plainly visible for all to see. Your friends and family will be able to see if you have received the mark. Your employer can look at you and see the mark. When you go shopping the store clerk will be able to see if you are wearing the mark of the beast.

    There is speculation today that the mark might involve a combination of technologies sucs as bar coding, GPS, the VeriChip, computers, satellite, and other modalities such as social security numbers and other such numbers.

    Last year it was revealed that there is now a scanning method to identify persons,using DNA inter alia, so it is not unreasonable to conceive that all of these technologies might be implicated in the mark and its functioning.

    So though we do not know at this time what the mark of the beasst is/will be. What I am quite sure about though, is that what ever the mark is, and what ever the systems that will be involved in its employment , are already developed.

    I believe that all these things will be so common and so well accepted, that when the people of the world are invited to take the mark, they will find it extremely easy to acquiesce.

  5. J Avatar
    J

    Dear David:

    We want a nice robust discussion about how our politicians (all parties) won’t go near to a church door unless dragged there in an “official” capacity.

    And we want to discuss if their abscence from Christian congregations (or any congregations) makes them more vulnerable to corruption, and we the people more likely to be ripped off.

    We want you to keep the discussions on BU REAL.

    We want you to lay off the esoteric stuff.

  6. J Avatar
    J

    Dear Georgie Porgie you wrote “The mark of the beast will be ENFORCED. The mark of the beast will be placed on people who worship the beast and CHOOSE to receive his mark.”

    Since ENFORCED and CHOOSE are exact opposites, which one do you want us to believe? because both CANNOT be TRUE?

    Just asking.

    Tek you time to formulate a TRUTHFUL answer.

  7. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    You are quite correct J in picking that nit.

    ENFORCED and CHOOSE are exact opposites. But in this case many will choose to take the mark. After all they will see no harm in doing so, because it will seem to be the status quo, as many features attendant with the mark, will no doubt be normal occurences.

    Some will be forced to do so, because without it they can not buy or sell.

    Those who choose not to take the mark will suffer great persecution.

    Once they take the mark, The conditions concerning taking the mark will be strictly enforced. Whether one choses voluntarily, or of necessity or whatever the conditions of the mark will be enforced!

    J, I always rightly divide the Word as acurately as I can and I always give TRUTHFUL answers. I hope this helps.

    Also this issue is real, and certainly more important than the silly politicians. There is nothing escoteric about it. It is time we start looking to God, and not to the politicians, who will become more and more impotent as the day draws nigh.

  8. Juris Avatar
    Juris

    GP,

    You and some others keep saying you “DIVIDE” the Word. Is this some new usage of that word? Should it not be instead “DIVINE”?

  9. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    2 Timothy 2 15 reads Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    The word used for “divide” means to cut with a sharp knife. This is not a new new usage of the word “divide” , but a term used by the Bible and theologians and Bible scholars to indicate the correct interpretation of the Word, by comparing Scripture with Scripture.

    e.g IJohn 4:13, Ephesians 1:3 &4:30 as wel as Romans 5:5 indicate that the Holy Spirit was given.

  10. Juris Avatar
    Juris

    The Latin roots of “divide” are “dis”=apart (of two) and “videre” = to separate. The Biblical usage confuses me. “Divine”, on the other hand from “divinare”= to be inspired by God seems more appropriate. But I respect your superior knowledge in these matters.

  11. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Recall Sir, that the NT was written in Koine greek, but your Latin etymology is still appropriate, and certainly most correct.

    Use of “divide” in 2 Tim 2:15 does indeed have the idea of setting things apart. e.g Law vs Grace, dispensations, covenants, justification by faith vs justification by works etc

    Believers are enjoined in 2 Tim 2:15 to STUDY, so that they can boldly explain the issues in the Word by correctly placing the correct passages with each other, or being able to extract the correct scriptures for the correct situation…….very similiar to what you lawyers do.

    There is/used to be a very nice booklet by Scofield entitled Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth that pointed out these major “divisions” or thrends of thought in the Bible. Ironside wrote an equally useful booklet called Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth

    I think that “divinare” would be more suited to the two verses cited as the proof texts for the plenary verbal inspiration of the Bible (i.e 2 Peter 1:21 & 2 Timothy 2:16).

  12. Knight of the Long Knives Avatar
    Knight of the Long Knives

    I can’t believe people still take the bible literally. It is clearly almost completely allegorical.

  13. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    When I first saw the use of bar codes, I thought that perhaps the mark of the beast would be 666 with a bar code placed in one of the numbers, just as we use bar codes to identify a product in a store and place the price of the object simultaneously.

    Such a bar code might vary from country to country, using the information used in that country to identify its citizens, and hooked up to a computerised database such as we see in CSI. In Barbados our registration number has ones birthdate as part of the identity, and certainly allows one who understands it to know your age.

    Some systems in other countries have a number to denote sex, ethnicity etc. These can all aid in identity, to ensure that onecan not fake the number on a person.

    We can see how computer chips and GPS etc can enhance the way that the use of the mark can be enforced.

    Only this week some city in the USA has been advocating that the police put GPS units on the cars of its citizens so that they could easily be located. Many persons accepted the idea saying there was no need to fear such an invasion of privacy if the citizen had nothing to hide.

    One imagines that when the time comes, that all the technologies involved would be well accepted by the citizenry, so that accepting the mark would be considered as just another norm of life.

  14. JJ Avatar
    JJ

    Read Revelation 14:9-12

    the mark of the beast is associated with the FIERCEST MOST AWFUL WRATH EVER POURED OUT FROM GOD – it is His wrath “without mixture” i.e. it is unmingled with mercy!

    Question: WHY WOULD GOD POUR OUT HIS FINAL WRATH AGAINST PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD A MICROCHIP OR SOMETHING LIKE IT EMBEDDED INTO THEIR FOREHEAD OR RIGHT HAND?????

    Let’s say some parents think this is a really good idea and have their small children receive implants of the chip. WILL THE SAME GOD WHO SENT HIS ONLY SON TO DIE FOR US THEN PUNISH THESE CHILDREN WITH TOTAL FURY?

    WHY WOULD GOD BE CONCERNED ABOUT IMPLANTED MICROCHIPS?????

    WHERE DO PEOPLE GET SUCH PERVERTED IDEAS ABOUT THE CHARACTER OF GOD?????

    The whole issue of the Bible is sin, not some microchip!!!

    The mark of the beast has zip to do with chips or technology or any such thing!

  15. Knight of the Long Knives Avatar
    Knight of the Long Knives

    Jackson continues on to state, “ most of the black gods were regarded as crucified saviors who died to save mankind by being nailed to a cross, or tied to a tree with arms outstretched as if on a cross, or slain violently in some other manner. Of these Crucified SAVIORS, THE MOST PROMINENT WERE OSIRIS, AND HORUS OF EGYPT, KRISHNA OF INDIA, MITHRA OF PERSIA, QUETZALCOATL OF MEXICO, ADDONIS OF BABYLONIA AND ATTIS OF PHRYGIA. NEARLY ALL OF THESE SLAIN SAVIOR-GODS HAVE THE FOLLOWING STORIES RELATED ABOUT THEM:—THEY ARE BORN OF A VIRGIN, ON OR NEAR DEC.25TH (CHRISTMAS); THEIR BIRTH ARE HERALDED BY A STAR; THEY ARE BORN EITHER IN A CAVE OR STABLE; THEY ARE SLAIN, COMMONLY BY CRUCIFIXION; THEY DESCEND INTO HELL, AND RISE FROM THE DEAD AT THE BEGINNING OF SPRING (EASTER) AND FINALLY ASCEND INTO HEAVEN.” (Reference: “Ethiopia and the Origin of Civilization” by John G. Jackson).

  16. Knight of the Long Knives Avatar
    Knight of the Long Knives

    copied from this link: http://www.dailygrail.com/node/5736

  17. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    @ JJ
    The whole issue of the Bible is about how God deals with the sin issue. Thats the message of the Bible from Genesis 3:15.

    Those persons who deal with the sin issue according to God’s plan are in heaven as early as Revelation 4. Revelation 6-19 deals generally and specifically with those who elect to deal with the sin issue according according to their own way.

    You seem to be confused and inconsistent about the judgement of God. You ask WILL THE SAME GOD WHO SENT HIS ONLY SON TO DIE FOR US THEN PUNISH THESE CHILDREN WITH TOTAL FURY?

    Several scriptures teach that God did indeed send his son to die for the sins of ALL MEN. In other words his work on the cross was SUFFICIENT for all. But several other scriptures reveal that his work on the cross is EFFICIENT only for those who accept this work. An example of these verses is 1 Timothy 4:10. Christ is there described as the Savior of all men, especially those that believe.

    These is a separation. There is the judgement seat of Christ for believers, and the great white throne judgement for unbelievers. The saints are in heaven in Rev 4, the aints are not!

    The issue here is not microchips as the reason for receiving or experiencing the wrath of God. The discussion is about trying to discern the nature of the mark of the beast. It is clear that there will be a mark. It is unclear what the nature of the mark will be.

    It is difficult to see that the number 666 written on a person will be enough to differentiate from those who have received the mark from those who have not taken it, since anyone can obviously mark 666 on their foreheads to fool the enforcers.

    What I have said in clear English, is that I believe that there will be by that time numerous technologies ( and many are evident already) that can easily be incorporated into the actual mark, and use to monitor the whereabouts of folk who have the mark and identify those that only have a pseudo mark..

    It is clear that prophesy is being fulfilled before or eyes and that clarity is being made to those who are discerning. Those who are ignorant and whose vision tends to 0/0 will not see, or can not see, now, then or at any other time.

    What ever form the mark takes ; by whatever form the mark is applied, monitored and enforced God will pour out his wrath on an unbelieving people who miss the rapture. You can therefore split hairs, engage in semantics and ask questions that evince your poor understanding of English.

    I think my presentation is clear and as sound as a bell. At no time did I say that implanted microchips WILL be used. I said in clear English that there are a range of technologies now in vogue, that people take for granted and as the norm, that way well be incorporated in the mark of the beast and might be used in its application, monitoring and enforcement.

    You can now demonstrate that the mark of the beast has zip to do with chips or technology or any such thing!You can now demonstrate your view of how the mark will be applied, monitored and enforced.

    It is one thing to rant, rave and ramble. It is another to present a logical thesis with information and detail that is plausible and accords with what is hap[pening currently.

    I will remind you that when the first predictions that Christ would be hung on a tree was made, the method of death by crucifixion was not yet invented. Did God not employ via the Romans the technology of the day? Might we not wonder if he will also employ the contemporary technology in that day?

  18. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    @JJ, You got it all confused, what do you think the ‘Microchip’ is, if in fact this does happen to be the ‘Antichrist’ mark of the Beast, BUT SIN, the very demonic, Satanically inspired, and IMPOSED mark of the Beast, a vehement last attempt by Satan to control most of mankind, just before Jesus returns to utterly destroy the Devil, and the multitides who worshipped ‘him’ by talking his Mark!

    Almighty God’s prophets, Daniel and John, both predicted that the nations of the world would ultimately surrender their ‘sovereignty’ to the Antichrist in hope that he would bring security and true peace.

    A large number of politicians of key nations throughout the world have abandoned belief in their nation’s sovereignty, and now belief that the only way to prevent a devasting world war, is for every nation to surender its sovereignty to a future world government, which is what this carfully planned ‘World Economic Crisis’ is all about, for without such a crisis, it would not be possible to craftly and cunningly bring about and institute, One World Government, the ‘Antichrist’ World Order.

    The Scriptures, God’s Word, warn that the earth will NEVER know true peace, until, the Prince of Peace comes, The Lord Jesus Christ.

    The Antichrist will use men’s deep longing for peace “to conquer” the nations of the world and force them to join his growing world government.

    There is something mysterious and fascinating about the Mark of the Beast that has held a unique place in the minds of men for many centuries. The mark will no doubt be related to both the ‘name of the beast’ and ‘the number of his name” ‘666.’ It will indicate that the individual willingly worships the ‘beast’ the satanic Antichrist. If someone does not possess this Mark, they will not be able to buy or sell during the Great Tribulation.

    The universal application of this system was technically impossible until recent times, yet now the introduction of laser scans, implantable computer chips, and computerized financial systems make it very feasible.

    The introduction of this diabolical Mark of the Beast system will place humanity in an invisible economic prison. The worldwide economic and political system of the last days will be under the control of the Antichrist and the False Prophet.

    All that has and is currently transpiring with the ‘Economic Crisis’ worldwide, is no accident, that has been carefully planned and orchastrated for this express purpose, without which, the One World Government, the Antichrist world government cannot become a reality.

    Obama has been selected at this time, for this purpose, by the wicked World Order, Antichrist elite; for he is all a part of this sinister plan and plot. His charm, rhetoric, etc, etc., is part of what is needed in such a leader.

  19. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    @ GP….Question….was it a cross or a pole?

    I have heard that it was a pole and not a cross, this discussion came up in the office and I guess you can tell between who (lol).
    What is your take on this.
    BTW…this is not meant to derail the topic.

  20. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    Zoe…you treading real close to conspiracy theories for a Christian though.
    I thought that was for people like myself and Hopi.

  21. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Rise of Antichrist part 1

    The term antichrist does not necessarily mean someone who is openly against Christ like an atheist or a pagan.

    It may also mean persons who appear instead of Christ, and oppose Chritianity in this way—i.e. a counterfeit Christ.

    Such antichrists include all the originators and propagators of all the false cults which have arisen throughout the church age. These are all Christian in their jargon and activity but their basic message is antichristian—they all reject the true Christ as is taught in 1 John 4 :1-3&5-6.

    All persons and organisations which purports to be Christian in its outward aspects, but whose message is opposed to the Word of God is antichrist.

    Antichrist refers to both a particular person as well as to a principle which is actively opposed to God and which may well be thought of as incarnating itself in those in every generation who have seemed to be blatant opponents of God.

    The term antichrists also include those politicians, patriots, social workers, psychologists, and any persuasive voices whose works and words claim to meet, SIN- the basic problem of human life is antichristian, because they are making false claims, which have decieved many throughout this age.

    By offering men peace without forgiveness and diverting men from the narrow road that leads to Christ and the salvation and cure for sin which he offers via the cleansing and forgiveness of sin, they manifest themselves to be antichrist. We must test what they say by Scripture.

    Jesus predicted in the Olivet Discourse that near. the end of the age -many people will claim to be Christ. We have many antichrists among us currently., but at the end of the age there will come one Antichrist who will oppose Christ and set himself up as the only authority.

    As most NT readers know, the words antichrist and antichrists appear in 1 John 2:18, thus:
    18. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    1 John 4:3 thus
    And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    2 John 7 thus
    For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

    In these scriptures we see that the term antichrist refers to persons who are false teachers who were teaching doctrine that were against the doctrine of Christ, or who were presenting other teachings to be set along side the doctrines of Christ. Jesus, Paul, Jude and Peter all warned about the advent of such persons. In fact in 1 John 2:18 & 1 John 4:3, John points out that such persons were already present in Christendom.
    Such persons are characterized by the fact that they deny “that Jesus is the Christ” and they fail to confess the incarnation of Christ, i.e that Jesus came in the flesh. The “many antichrists” that have existed throughout the Church age or the age of grace belong to the same spirit as that of the one Antichrist, who also denies the Father and the Son, and seeks to be worshipped in his place.
    According to 1John 2:18 even in his time there were antichrists; those who were against Christ and those who were instead of Christ This is still a feature of our times we have the anti Christ of liberalism, modernism, materialism, education and all the cults and dogmas and doctrines and philosophies whose teachings are against, or contrary to the word of God, and all the rituals, and anything which attempts to take Christ’s place—even pre-eminence in a church is anti christ. The success of these folk with respect to their deception, their approach, their success and indeed their final damnation is predicted in Acts 20:28-32; Romans 16:17-18; Titus 1:10-11& 3:9-11;2 Peter2 and Jude.

  22. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    @ Technician
    Josh McDowell’s book Evidence that Demands a Verdict is really great with respect to matters of both the crucifixion and the resurrection.

    It was indeed a pole (the trunk of a tree) nailed into the ground like a big stake or pile. Hence we sing about the Old Rugged Cross. The victim carried the cross piece and this was attached to the pole at the crucifixion site.

    BTW, Zoe is spot on about what you call a “conspiracy theory.” Whereas I don’t think that Obama is the Antichrist (theologians think he will be a Jew- cant think of the scripture reference now), he has the type of appeal, skills and charisma that will characterize the Antichrist. This globalization thing is certainly not by chance!

    If you can find the writings off Arthur Pink on line, you will find a lot of good information on the antichrist. In Pink’s day men had little distractions, and godly men really studied the Word with a passion. Pink was one of them. He really gets into the nitty gritty of words.

  23. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Technician, the difference between my take on the ‘conspiracy’ theories and those that Hopi et al expound, is, that I can clearly see the difference between the ‘trees’ and the jungle, therefore, I can only make any sense of what is transpiring ‘globally’ and by extension ‘economically’ WTO, IMF, World Bank, UN, etc, etc, as I take my position from what has been stated, prophetically, from God’s Word, the Bible, which is unfolding, year by year, day by day, in this vast complexity of World ‘affairs’.

    Unfortunately, those like Hopi and others see this utter mess, globally, through the prism of ‘colour’ which is nonsense, Yes, it does appear that the power is vested in the rich developed nations, who are primarily ‘white’ and they are the ones who fudamentally control the IMF, World Bank, and who also control the other secretive organizations, all planning the One World Government, to bring ALL of us into economic slavery.

    BUT, Almighty God has never dealt with colour as the problem that plagues all of mankind, which is ‘SIN’ as Sin has NO COLOUR, for He is a respector of NO ONE, but judges all of us, based on His absolute Holiness, Righteousness, and Justice.

    We can very easily become myopic, and fail to see the bigger picture, as God sees it!

  24. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    @David….This is one thread that you should NOT remove from your blog because this is what we are living through now.

    The anti-christ is NOT a man nor a woman it is a SHITSTEM. We are living in it today. And it is being propelled by our ignorance, arrogance, compliance and complacency. Watch how the fake bogus 9/11 takedown is causing citizens of this earth to give up their basic rights. Watch how a few greedy,murderous,lying,evil-loving white men have tornadoed world economies. We look in the mirror and lie to ourselves, then we lie to our countrymen, then we lie to our children. And what is making all of this possible is that little black Book — the BIBLE. In this book, the money-master and murderers have carefully laid out their plan, told you that it is prophecy from “God.” and have you believing it. But I can PROVE to anyone that this is NOT prophecy. Just long-term inter-generational planning! That’s all this shit is!

    Be very wary of those who say that they have found the dead sea scrolls and are interpreting them for you. These are the same people who wrote themselves into the Bible as ‘God’s’ chosen and wrote Blacks into the Bible as the children of HAM who were cursed with being BLACK because they ‘laughed at their father’s nakedness.’ This filthy, lying, criminal bunch, that’s running amuck throughout the world today, the bloodsuckers. And the christians are giving them their power, while the Arabs and Muslims are pushing back.

    “What a woeful web they weave
    When first they practise to deceive!”

  25. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Rise and fall of Antichrist part 2- according to Daniel 7

    The Antichrist has many names, and whereas his actual rise is best described by Paul in some detail in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, the first mention of him is perceived to be given in Daniel 7, which is in many ways similar to Daniel 2. A study of both Daniel 2 & 7 are needed to fit all the prophecies into a timeline..

    COMPARISONS BETWEEN DANIEL 2 & 7
    Chapter 2 Chapter 7
    Nebuchadnezzar’s image The four beasts
    Given to Nebuchadnezzar Given to Daniel
    4 kingdoms + 1 in view 4 kingdoms + 1 in view
    1 man + a stone 4 beasts + the Son of Man
    More general More detailed
    Daniel interpreted it. An angel interpreted it.
    Man’s viewpoint God’s viewpoint

    The importance of these visions is that they give the history of the world, and describes who will dominate the world scene in the period of time stretching from the Babylonian conquest of Judah until the Battle of Armageddon. Jesus called this period “the times of the gentiles”.

    Daniel 7:1-6 describes the rise and fall of the Babylonians, the Medes and Persians, the Greeks and the Romans.

    Then he introduces a fourth beast, whom many conservative scholars believe to represents the Roman Empire. Others believe that the ten horns of this fourth beast refer to future rulers who will appear around the time of or preceding the second coming of Jesus Christ.

    Therefore most premillenarians believe that the 10 horns describe 10 rulers who will arise in the future and reign simultaneously.

    Since the Roman Empire is no longer in existence it is thought that God will revive or realign the Roman Empire in the future.

    Some believe that this will be a final rearrangement of the current European Nations, who even at this have a common currency. ( NB a horn may either be a king or a kingdom or nation. i.e Rulers represent the nations that they lead as well as themselves (cf. vv. 17, 23).

  26. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Rise and fall of Antichrist part 2- according to Daniel 7 continuued (verses 7-11)

    Daniel then noticed in Daniel 7:8 an eleventh horn arising among the ten, which displaced three of the 10 horns.

    This eleventh horn had human eyes, probably symbolic of intelligence, and a mouth that spoke boastfully (cf. vv. 11, 20, 25). This eleventh horn or ruler is considered to be the Antichrist (cf. Isa. 27:1; Matt. 24:5, 15; 2 Thess. 2:3-4; 1 John 2:18; 4:3; Rev. 13; 17; 19).

    This eleventh horn or ruler must be distinguished from another “little horn” that Daniel saw in another vision that he reported having (8:9-11). The differences between these two little horns indicate that they are different rulers.

    In Daniel 7:9-12 reports that this fourth beast or the Antichrist will be destroyed by God the Father (here called The Ancient of Days- cf vv. 13, 22; Isa.43:13; 57:15). This actually occurs eventually in Revelation 19:20
    .
    In this vision Daniel saw thrones set up in the courts of heaven, just as the apostle John later saw thrones set up in heaven also (Rev. 1:4; 20:4; et al.). Daniel then saw God the Father take His seat on His heavenly throne.

    Note that the title “Ancient of Days” stresses God’s eternality. His pure white clothing pictures His purity and holiness, and His pure woolly hair suggests His mature judgment. Daniel saw His throne blazing with fire (lit. a burning flame cf Genesis 15), symbolic of knowledge, purity, and judgment in Scripture. Its wheels probably imply that it and He can go in any direction, that He can do anything He pleases (cf. Ezek. 1:13-21).

    In Daniel 7:10 Daniel saw a river of fire flowing out from before the throne of God the Father, symbolizing judgment proceeding from Him. Those attending Him were evidently angels (cf. Deut. 33:2). The court (cf. v. 26) seems to be a heavenly venue in which God renders judgment on rulers and their nations based on their deeds (Isa. 65:6; Mal. 3:16; Rev. 20:12; cf. Matt. 25:31-46).

    Next in verse 11, Daniel’s observed a shift of proceedings from heaven to earth, and was attracted to the boastful words of the horn or ruler of v. 8; i.e the Antichrist.

    He noticed too that God passed judgment on the fourth beast or ruler and destroyed it along with all its horns or fellow rulers (cf. Luke 21: 24-27; Rev. 19:20).

    Similarly the stone cut out without hands crushed the toes of the image in chapter 2 suddenly and violently. In other words, antichrist and his compatriots who come against God will be destroyed by the Lord Jesus Christ who is the “stone cut out without hands” that crushed the toes of the image in chapter 2 – which represents the revived Roman Empire ( considered to be the Euro nations of our day.)

  27. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Rise and fall of Antichrist part 2- according to Daniel 7 continued ( verse 12-13

    Verse 12 of Daniel 7 indicates a contrast in the end of the Roman empire in the form of its revision with that of the previous three (the Babylonia, Medo-Persian and the Grecian.)

    It must be understood here that although God took away the dominion of each of these earlier three kingdoms one by one, that they continued to exist as elements of the kingdom that overcame them for some time. That is the Medo-Persian empire contained features of the Babylonian, and the Grecian empire contained features of both the Babylonian and Medo-Persian empires . Similarly the Roman Empire and its revised form contained features of all the civilizations that they replaced.

    However, God will cut off the fourth empire completely, and it will continue no longer (v. 11). Thus the end of the fourth kingdom will result in a totally new condition on the earth (cf. Rev. 19:19—20:6).

    In Daniel 7:13-14 the scene shifts back to heaven again. Daniel saw a person looking like the “son of man” (i.e God the Son) ushered before the Ancient of Days apparently by angelic attendants in heaven’s court The Ancient of Days (God the Father) then gave
    the “son of man” (i.e God the Son) authority to rule on earth (cf. Ps. 2:6; 110:1-2).

    “The one like the son of man has similarities with human beings, as the title “son of man” implies. However, he comes with clouds of heaven, which elsewhere in Scripture describes how God has come to earth (cf. Exod. 13:21-22; 19:9,16; 1 Kings 8:10-11; Ps. 18:10; Isa. 19:1; Jer. 4:13; Ezek. 10:4; et al.).

    Thus this one like a son of man appears to be a God-man (cf. Phil. 2:6-7). The fact that this refers to the Son of God, Jesus Christ, becomes clear later in the Gospels where Jesus used the title “Son of Man” more frequently of himself than any other (cf. Mark 8:31; John 1:51; et al.). Other passages also describe Jesus Christ as coming in the clouds in the future (cf. Matt. 24:30; 26:64; Mark 13:26; Acts. 1:9; 1 Thess. 4:17; Rev.1:7).

    Because Jesus commonly used the title “Son of Man” to describe Himself, this is the most frequently quoted verse from Daniel in the New Testament. It is very significant that Jesus used this title above all others when describing Himself, some 31 times in Matthew alone.

    “Although Messiah had already been named as God’s ‘Son’ in previous prophetic utterances (cf. [2 Sam. 7:14;] Ps. 2:7, 12; Prov. 30:4), He is now given a name that emphasizes His true and total identification with mankind.” (Constable)

  28. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Rise and fall of Antichrist part 2- according to Daniel 7 continued ( verse 14 –

    We see in Daniel 7:14 that the Son of Man became the prominent person in the vision, and that He received dominion and glory and a kingdom, clearly from the Ancient of Days, just as is also predicted in that high Christology passage of Philippians 2:9-11.

    The Son of Man’s kingdom and exaltation here “does not refer to his inherent sovereignty over the universe as God the Son (as consubstantial and co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit), but to his appointment as absolute Lord and Judge by virtue of his atoning ministry as God incarnate—the one who achieved a sinless life (Isa 53:9), paid the price for man’s redemption (Isa 53:5-6), and was vindicated by his bodily resurrection as Judge of the entire human race (Acts 17:31; Rom 2:16).”

    God’s intention in giving Him this authority (cf. Matt. 28:18) was that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. He was to have global rule over everyone. Furthermore His kingdom would last forever in contrast to the preceding four kingdoms.

    Succeeding kingdoms destroyed preceding kingdoms, but no kingdom will ever destroy His kingdom (cf. Ps. 2:6-9; 72:11; Isa. 11; Rev. 19:15-16; 20:1-6).

    This is a fifth kingdom corresponding to the stone cut out without hands in chapter 2 that destroys the fourth kingdom and all preceding kingdoms.

    Since the destruction of the previous three kingdoms was literal, it is reasonable to expect that the destruction of the fourth kingdom by the fifth kingdom shall be literal.

    Since Jesus did not destroy the Roman empire at his first advent, then clearly the second coming of Christ must be the time of the initiation of the fifth kingdom and the final destruction of the fourth kingdom.

    If this is so, then the prophetic picture that Daniel saw did not include the present age in which we live (cf. Isa. 61:1-2; Luke 4:18-19).

  29. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Rise and fall of Antichrist part 2- according to Daniel 7 continued ( verse 15 -25

    Even though Daniel understood all kinds of visions and dreams (1:17), he was totally baffled and alarmed concerning the interpretation of the fourth beast and particularly the little horn (7:15-18.)

    So in his vision he apparently asked an angel (cf. 8:16; 9:21) to help him understand. He was told that each of the four beasts represented a king (cf. v. 23) who had arisen from the earth’s population, which is what the sea symbolized (v. 2; cf. Isa. 17:12-13; 57:20-21; Jer. 46:7-8).

    He was told that the ‘four kings’ refer to four kingdoms, just as the beasts represent both a king and a kingdom.

    It was then explained to him that the saints of the Highest One (vv. 22, 25, 27) probably referring to believers of all ages (v. 27) will receive a (fifth) kingdom and will possess it forever.

    In other words, God’s people will participate and have a share in the Son of Man’s literal, earthly, everlasting kingdom after He establishes it. This kingdom will replace the previous empires of men and involves the saints reigning with Christ (cf. Matt. 25:14-30; Luke 19:11-27; 2 Tim. 2:12; Rev. 5:10; 20:4, 6; 22:5).
    .
    This kingdom will begin with the return of Christ to the earth, continue for 1,000 years on the earth, and then continue in the new heavens and new earth forever. This fact corrects the objection that this kingdom cannot be millennial since the angel said it would last forever.

    Daniel’s apparent request for a more detailed interpretation of the fourth beast in 7:19-22 resulted in unearthing four previously unrevealed details about them.The beast had claws of bronze stressing its fierce nature (v. 19).

    The little horn was larger than the other horns accounting for its ability to rise in the place of three other horns (v. 20). The little horn waged war with the saints and overcame them, which explains one reason for God’s final judgment of him (v. 21; cf. Rev. 11:7; 12:13-17; 13:7; 17:17).

    Daniel seems to have had particular concern about the fate of the saints whom the little horn overpowered. Finally, God passed judgment in favor of His saints further indicating the importance of the saints in God’s actions.

    Note that the names “Ancient of Days” and “Highest One” (or Most High) appear to be two titles of God the Father stressing His eternality and sovereignty respectively.

    With respect to the interpretation of the fourth beast, the interpreting angel then granted the prophet more insight about the fourth beast and particularly about the little horn in Daniel 7:23-25.

    In verse 23, the dual identification of the beasts with kings and kingdoms becomes clear as it is pointed out that the fourth beast does not just represent a king (v. 17) but also a kingdom.

    The angel repeated the facts already revealed (v. 7) but clarified that the previous description referred to a kingdom. The phrase “whole earth” refers to a “one-world government under a worldwide dictator”as is evident in Revelation 13. The current thrend called globalization seems to be heading toward this.

    In Daniel 7:24-25 One difference between the description of the little horn here and earlier (v. 8) is that here the little horn is a king, not a kingdom.

    Another is that he will be different from the previous 10 kings (cf. Rev. 13:1; 17:12). His boastful words will be against the Most High and His saints (v. 25). He will wear down the saints, evidently by persecution (cf. 2 Thess. 2:8-9; Rev. 12:13-17; 13:1-10, 16-17).

    He will also desire to make changes in times (the calendar?) and in law. Someone, obviously the sovereign God, will allow him to have his way for “a time, times, and half a time” (cf. 12:7), or the last three and one-half years before the little horn’s destruction and the return of Jesus Christ.

    This corresponds to the “Great Tribulation,” the phrase Jesus used to describe the last half (three and one half years) of the seven-year Tribulation (Matt. 24:21; (cf. 4:16; Rev. 11:2-3; 12:6; 13:5).

    Just as our Lord ministered on earth three and a half years, the Antichrist (as a counterfeit) will similarly enact his Satanic ministry for the same length of time.”

  30. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    As Albert Einstein derived…

    Energy (E) is equal to (==) Mass (m) times the speed of light (c) to the power of two (^2).

    My gods!!! What a beautiful equation.

    It is what makes our (and all) suns burn, as they convert that most basic of the universe’s elements, hydrogen, into helium (and, occasionally, also into higher elements, such as carbon, oxygen, lead, gold, et al…).

    Sadly, E=mc^2 also allows the Atomic Bomb… It allows a small bit of matter to be converted into a great deal of energy, instantly…

    We humans witnessed the possibilities of this equation in Japan. Over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, to be exact…

    Over two hundred thousand died… In a matter of seconds… (No pun intended.)

    Einstein was never comfortable with his discovery. He felt that this knowledge was something humans were not ready for.

    And he did make mistakes. For example, he never accepted Quantum Uncertainty, to his dying day. “God does not play dice with the Universe.”

    Sometimes the truth is uncomfortable.

    But the truth is, by definition, the truth.

  31. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    NB We speak here about the Revived Roman Empire because the Roman Empire did not end as those of the Babylonians, Medes & Persians or Greeks that preceeded it.

    When the hordes from the north conquered the Roman Empire in the fifth century A.D., they did not unite to form another empire. Instead individual nations emerged out of the old Roman Empire. Some of those nations and others stemming from them have continued till the present day.

    The ten-nation confederacy of the future anticipated in these prophecies would naturally be considered a revival of the Roman Empire if for no other reason than that it is portrayed as an integral part of the fourth empire.

    Some consider the present Age as the 10-horned era of the fourth beast. Others, however, hold that the time of the 10 horns is yet future, that the present Church Age is not seen in this vision, and that 10 kings will coexist over a future revived [or realigned] Roman Empire.)

  32. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Rise and fall of Antichrist part 2 continued – according to Daniel 7;26- 28

    In Daniel 7:26, the angel continued to explain that the heavenly court (v. 10) would pass judgment on the little horn, and God will remove his dominion and destroy it forever (v. 11; 2 Thess. 2:8; Rev. 19:20).

    In other words the global one world government that is now being already set up, and that will come to its full fruition or zenith under the Antichrist will be destroyed. The fifth kingdom, under the Son of Man’s leadership (v. 14), will then commence (Daniel 7:27)

    The angel again stressed the role that the saints or the people of the Most High”will have in this kingdom.

    The Son of Man’s kingdom will be endless and worldwide. Notice that the titles “Highest One” (God the Father) and “His [the Son of Man’s]” are interchangeable, pointing to the deity of the Son of Man.

    This verse also clarifies that the saints are not the same as the Son of Man, “saints” being plural and “His” and “Him” singular. The kingdom is not just the rule of the saints; it is fundamentally the rule of the Son of Man in which the saints participate.

  33. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    The exegeting Daniel 7 in developing a theology of the Rise of AntiChrist is important because of the central position of this chapter along with Daniel chapter 2 in developing a time line for prophecy, and for merging other scriptures about this person, such as 2 Thesalonians into that timeline.

    It is noteworthy that only Daniel sets up a time line for world history from the divine standpoint- called the time of the gentiles by Jesus.

    Note also that when the two pairs of brothers among the disciples asked Jesus about signs concerning the end of the age, that the Lord interposed a prophetic word from Daniel that was well known to them.

    God had selected Israel as his chosen people to teach the world his ways, but they failed miserably. In Daniel 2 we see Neubuchadnezzer in charge of the know world wondering to him self “What next?’

    This was explained to him in a dream which was interpreted by Daniel in chapter two. This dream has largely come to pass, except for the part concerning the ten toes of the image in Daniel 2- or what will happen to the revived Roman Empire at the end of the age.

    This is relevant at least to serious believers, since this time is already at our doorstep, it seems.

    Many things seem to indicate this. One of the major things that suggest this is the rampant apostasy and apathy in the church today- which some people think is the “falling away” of 2 Thessalonians 2.

  34. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    It is perhaps worth bringing forward (once again) the critical “Double-slit experiment” (first thought to have been conducted in 1801).

    This empirical experiment shows that the Universe reveals itself only partially, and then only as a function as to how we ask the question.

    Is light a partial? Yes.

    Is light a wave front? Yes.

    Is light therefore both a partial and a wave front? No. Or, at least, not both at the same time… Again, it depends on how we ask the question.

    And this same experiment can be conducted with electrons, protons and atoms…

    Some of we simple, stupid humans would like to think that we can *know* what the future holds.

    But, modern knowledge shows us that we *cannot* know everything. It is forbidden. It is, provably, beyond our ability.

    One need only spend a little bit of time within the Mandelbrot set et al to know that we pathetic humans cannot know.

    Does this then prove the existence of God?

    Possibly.

    But probably not the God most believe in….

  35. David Avatar
    David

    Gosh Chris we see that you are operating in high bandwith mode 🙂

  36. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @David… LOL…

    Are you complaining? [wink]

  37. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Here we see a clear example of the spirit of antichrist at work!

  38. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    GP, you are doing a great service on BU where so many can have a proper, sound, concise scholarly presentation of the Biblical prophetic scope of the very End Times we are all living in, literally unfolding before our very lives, day by day.

    How anyone, can be so stupid, beefheaded, dense, dull, and dumb, pinheaded, to even begin to imagine, that all of this was concocked by anyone, and then played out over thousands of years, exactly as planned, other than by Almighty God, who divinely inspired His Prophets and gave a glimmer of future events, would have to be really ‘demented’ in the highest, or just as intellectually dishonest as those evolutionary pseudo-scientists, in believing that this awesome Universe, and the incedible live forms came into existence from ‘nothing’ without an Omnipotent Creator.

    The prophet Daniel recorded his facinating vision about the revival of this fourth world empire, Rome, in the final days preceding the coming Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Daniel’s ancient prophecy remarkably predicted that the ancient Roman Empire would rise again in the last generation of this age. Once more, Rome will take its place during the stage of world history as the dominant worlds power, during the closing events leading to the return of Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah. Daniel also predicted that the final restoration of the fourth empire, Rome, would be in an unprecedented form of a super state confederacy composed of ten nations that would be led by a powerful dictator. The leader, the “little horn,” will defeat three nations in a crisis and seize power over the ten nations.

    From the time of the disintegration of the weatern Roman Empire in approximately A.D 410, until the closing days of World War II, the peoples of Europe, the Middle East, and northern Africa have experienced ceaseless struggles. Warfare continued between the growing nation states of Europe that grew out of the ancient provinces of the Roman Empire. Throughout the centuries the dream of recreating the Roman Empire has motivated political, religious, and military leaders. The first attempt began with the failed plan by Charles the Great, known as Charlemange, in A.D. 800, to recreate the empire as the Holy Roman Empire. This debacle was followed by numerous attempts over a period of many centuries by various Roman pontiffs to fill the political and military vacuum by creating a new empire under the tutelege of the Roman church to unite the warring factions of Europe.

    Despite the powerful efforts by England’s King Henry II to create a true European empire uniting the territories of England and France in the late 1100s, that effort was abandoned after his death. Almost six centuries later, during the revolutionary chaos throughout Europe that followed the French Revolution, Emperor Napoleon seized power in A.D. 1800 to pursue his brilliant military plan to receate an empire; but his grand efforts were defeated by the continental European powers who joined with the growing military forces of England.

    Adolph Hitler, also had grand plans to create a powerful political, economic, and military colossus that threatened the whole world between 1939 and 1945.

    None of these attempts succeded, for it was not in Almighty God’s time table, who is in absolute control over the affairs of man.

    Antichrist and the Revival of Rome.

    The prophet Daniel rose from the lowly position as a conquered Jewish slave in exile, to become the respected Prime Minister of Babylon, the greatest empire of the ancient world. His remarkable ability to interpret dreams and prophetic visions brought him to the attention of King Nebuchadnezzar. The King of Babylon had a strange dream on a great metallic human-like image composed of four different metals; gold, silver, bronze, and iron. Daniel, gifted by God, interpreted the King’s strange dream and explained that this image symbolized the future of four world empires from the time of Daniel in the 6thy century BC until the end of the age. This remarkable prophecy envisioned that there would be only FOUR major empires that would rule the world from the Babylonian Empire in 606 BC, until the time of the second Coming of Christ as Messiah-King.

    All of this has come to past exactly has prophesied by God’s prophet, Daniel, awaiting the final restoration of the revised Roman Empire.

    The first empire represented by the head of gold, was the Babylonian Empire, (Dan. 2:37-38). The second was represented by the chest of silver, was the Media-Persia Empire; which was followed by the third empire of Greece depicted by bronze thighs. Finally, the fourth empire was the Roman Empire represented by the two iron-legs correctly predicting the division of the fourth empire into Eastern and Western Rome.

    The final portion of the metallic image was the two feet composed of iron and clay, which represents the final stage of the revived Roman Empire in the years leading up to the Battle of Aramgeddon.

    The prophetic meaning of the great metallic image reveals that the decrease in value of the metal from the head of ‘gold’ chest of ‘silver’ thighs of ‘bronze’ legs of ‘iron’ and feet of both iron and clay, indicates a regression from the monarchy of Babylon as symbolized by Gold to Iron and Clay, representing a combination of dictatorial rule and democracy in the final stage. However, the increasing strength of the metals symbolized the fact that each successive empire would have greater military power. History demonstrates the fulfillment of this remarkable prophecy.

    But, this astonishing and amazing prophecy of Daniel, predicted that, despite all the plans and ambitions of Kings, Emperors, and Generals, to conquer the world during the past two thousand years, NO fifth empire has EVER succeeded in replacing the fourth world empire. Many conquerors tried and failed, including, Mohammed, Charlemange, Genghis Khan, Frederick Barbarossa, Napoleon, the British Empire, Adolf Hitler, Mussolini, and Russia. Each of these in turn tried to construct a fifth world empire to replace ancient Rome, but each FAILED UTTERLY. Only God Almighty knows the future and He will bring it to pass despite the well-laid plans of men!!

  39. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @GP: “Here we see a clear example of the spirit of antichrist at work!

    Are you actually suggesting that if Christ was presented with the results of the double-slit experiment, that he wouldn’t have found it intriguing?

    Please note that this experiment *could* have been (and may have been) conducted in Christ’s time.

    All it takes is a prism (triangular transparent crystal), some foil (gold was regularly pounded into such for gilding) and a dark room….

  40. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @Zoe… A serious question…

    Why do you get so upset (and so insulting) when anyone suggests the *possibility* that perhaps the Universe is more complex than even you and yours believe?

    Truly, I do not reject your god. I truly believe it exists, if for no other reason than you (an others) believe in it.

    Just like every other god anyone else believes in….

  41. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Zoe
    Thanks for trying to maintain a high level of Biblical scholarship on this thread .

    We can expect to see the enemy at work as he uses his disciples to distract those who might be interested in learning about eschatolgy.

    This great doctrine of the Bible is taught by few preachers today, as they spend their time sowing “seed” or beggingfor money, instead of feeding thier flocks.

    As we develop this teaching on the antichrist, we will exegete the first 12 verses of 2 Thessalonians2 .

    Today I listened to Adrian Rogers preach on this subject. Here is his amazing outline
    1- THE MOCKERY OF GOD IS RECOUNTED v 3
    2- THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY IS RESTRAINED v 6
    3- THE MINISTRY OF THE SPIRIT WILL BE REMOVED (verse 6&7)
    4- THE MASTERY OF SATAN IS RELEASED v 7
    5 THE MISERY OF MAN IS REDOUBLED v 11-12
    6 THE MAJESTY OF THE SAVIOR IS REVEALED

    You can listen at
    http://www.oneplace.com/Ministries/Love_Worth_Finding/archives.asp?bcd=12/11/2008

  42. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @BU Family…

    For another, perhaps more critical, perspective…

    http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-05-20

  43. David Avatar
    David

    Zoe
    Thanks for trying to maintain a high level of Biblical scholarship on this thread .

    We can expect to see the enemy at work as he uses his disciples to distract those who might be interested in learning about eschatolgy.

    GP

    On a point of privilege (been listening to too much parliamentary debates of late:)
    Aren’t you (Christians) suppose to not only DIVIDE the word but TARGET those who you describe as above?
    What is the purpose Sire of directing your message and elucidations to the converted?
    If you agree then you must ask Zoe to engage man!

  44. Rumplestilskin Avatar
    Rumplestilskin

    Chris Halsall,

    Many times you discuss matters with others, that I am not interested in.

    Sometimes I disagree with your opinions.

    However, your May 21, 2009 at 6:29 pm, posting is quite ‘there’.

    I agree. The whole concept is that we can only understand within the own parameters of our own knowledge, therefore our understanding is itself finite, rather than truly ‘knowing and understanding’.

    Peace

  45. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    “How anyone, can be so stupid, beefheaded, dense, dull, and dumb, pinheaded….”
    ***************************************
    @GP /Zoe

    I really believe that you guys would do well to take a deep breath, take a step back and look at yourselves…..

    Particularly Zoe…. why do you find it necessary to insult the intelligence / knowledge / motive of other bloggers – just because they take a contrary position to yours? Is not that the whole point of debate?

    It is when others disagree that we get the chance to really test our knowledge and conviction. I actually find it quite stimulating and have been able to reinforce , refine and expand my understanding greatly through the interactions with the bloggers here on BU….

    …take it easy men. There is no need or justification in even righteous indignation here – far less down right hateful and aggressive language.

    With regard to prophecies, there is no requirement for non-believers to be forced to accept these.
    You are only required to perform the role of witness, so that when the time comes, none can honestly say that they were not advised / warned / upbraided.

    Unfortunately, Bush Tea tends to err on the other side – like my boy Jonah…. but I know that I cannot deal with that whale stuff – so I really appreciate the platform that BU provides. LOL.

  46. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    CH, I don’t follow your question, as a Christian I believe that the Universe is infinitely and vastly more complex than any of us can comprehend, even as Einstein said:

    ‘The incomprehensibility of the Universe is that it is incomprehensible.”

  47. Straight talk Avatar
    Straight talk

    BT:

    Don’t be too hard on Zoe, she has so little time on this earth to make her convictions valid, and that desperation sometimes bubbles to the surface as insults.

    Although disagreeing entirely with her cause, I sympathise with a fellow evangelic.

    When what is obvious to your world view seems inexplicable to your fellows, frustration is bound to impinge on better judgement,

    I am confident you know the feeling.

  48. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Bush Tea, when I have occasion to, I call a spade a spade, as I’ve had to do with some on this blog, as their invectives in describing facts and evidence that cannot be coherently or logically refuted, requires such responses.

    Even our Loving Saviour and Lord, had some scathing remarks and denunciation for those that needed to be told so.

    “But when He (Jesus) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to His baptism, He said to them, ‘Brood of VIPERS! Who warned you to flee from the warth to come.” (Matt. 3: 7).

    Hear Jesus again:

    “Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the Devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He (Satan) was a muderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is NO TRUTH in him. When he speaks a LIE, he speaks from his own resourses, for he is a LIAR and the father of it. Because I tell you the TRUTH, you do not believe Me.” (John 8:43-45) emphasis added.

    There are those on this blog who want to learn the truth, but, they are others who are are virulent, strongly poisonous, and bitterly hostile to Almighty God and His Word, and that is their choice, but, I will not stand quietly and not say to them, what they are, as they also do to those of us of are standing up for God’s Word, and His eternal truth!!

    So it be!!

  49. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    Understood Zoe.

    However I seem to recall that the persons with whom Jesus tended to loose his cool were the then religious teachers.
    He tended to show little patience towards those who should be leading the public in the correct path.

    …on the other hand, he displayed great patience and tolerance for the non religious doubters.- such as the woman at the well… my boy Nocodemus, and even the thief on the cross.

    Is it possible that were Jesus to log on to BU, that GP, yourself and even BT may be the target of his impatience -rather than “ROK-head” (ROTFL) , Rohan and CH?

    …just asking…

  50. Gear Box Avatar
    Gear Box

    I had a dog that spen’ he whole life chasing after he own tail…

    AAAAAAAAAghhhhhhhhhhhhh

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