Est.2007

Barbados Underground

Bringing News and Opinions to the People

The Mark Of The Beast, The Coming Of The Anti-Christ,The Dead Sea Scrolls

← Back

Your message to the BLOGMASTER was sent

CONTACT THE BLOGMASTER ONLY

Mark of the Beast
Mark of the Beast

It is no secret that there is a constituency which dwells in the Barbados Underground who enjoys a robust religious debate. In recent times there has been rich discussion about the Jewish Talmud, The Promises of God and currently The Bible And The Qur’an, Brothers Kept Apart. This group is comprised of Atheists, Agnostics, Christians and  others, we even noticed the description Apathiest.

Surprisingly to the BU household the religious conversation has attracted a healthy following based on what we see from back here. We hope that we are not twisting any arms but there are some Christian events which require clarification.

  • The BU household wishes to ask our religious luminaries to explain how they perceive revelations linked to  the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls can potentially reshape religion as we know it.
  • Explain the Mark of the Beast and the much discussed the coming of the Anti-Christ.

Attached is a Power Point Presentation which has been in circulation for sometime which some believe is the Mark of the Beast exposed!

Discover more from Barbados Underground

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

820 responses to “The Mark Of The Beast, The Coming Of The Anti-Christ,The Dead Sea Scrolls”

  1. Hog Squeal Avatar
    Hog Squeal

    Goergie Porgie wrote:

    “For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.”

    My question is, then who sent Mr. Thompson to put the people of this Land under financial stress?

    You say:

    “The Antichrist will come to the fore after the rapture of the church.”

    Well Lucille Baird, Pastor Holford, Pastor Durant the Rev. at Christ Church Parish Church and others – are more with David Thompson than who is in Heaven.

    I agree, we should Pray and that is no joke beacuse Mr. Thompson’s hand is already and again being felt all across our Land with hardship and pain.

  2. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    RISE OF ANTICHRIST CONTINUED- Daniel 8

    Because of Jesus’ reference to the abomination of desolation in the Olivet Discourse in Mathew 24, which deals with recognizing the signs that lead up to the period referred to as the Great Tribulation which precedes His glorious return to judge, an understanding of Daniel chapter eight is of great significance in discussing the rise of antichrist.

    Whereas Daniel chapter 7 recorded the general history of “the times of the Gentiles,” from the time Nebuchadnezzar took the Jews into captivity in 586 BC until the Son of Man’s return to the earth, Daniel chapter 8 reveals more detail about the second (Persian) and third (Greek) kingdoms and especially how they relate to Israel.

    The third year of Belshazzar in verse 1, was about 551 B.C., two years after the vision in chapter 7 and about 12 years before the events of chapter 5. Daniel was then living within the kingdom of Neo-Babylonia, the first beast of chapter 7..

    The ram (male sheep) that Daniel saw in verse 3 standing before the canal represented Medo-Persia (as is explained in verse. 20). It corresponds to the lopsided bear in verse 5 of the vision given in chapter 7.

    The two horns, representing power, symbolized Media and Persia, the two kingdoms that formed an alliance to create Medo-Persia. The longer horn stood for Persia, which had become more powerful in the alliance and had risen to displace Media in leadership after the two nations merged.

    Historically the Medo-Persian Empire pushed its borders primarily in three directions. It went westward (into Lydia, Ionia, Thrace, and Macedonia), northward (toward the Caspian Mountains, the Oxus Valley, and Scythia), and southward (toward Babylonia, Palestine, and Egypt).

    These advances happened mainly under the leadership of Cyrus and Cambyses. Indeed Medo-Persia had its own way for many years and glorified itself as the text indicates. When it says “he did according to His will and became great.”

    The male goat identified in Daniel 8:5-8 represents Greece as is explained in verse 21. History has confirmed this identification. Alexander the Great is clearly the conspicuous horn. Under Alexander, the Greek armies advanced quickly from the West against
    Persia.

    Alexander’s conquest of the entire Near and Middle East within three years stands unique in military history and is appropriately portrayed by the lightning speed of this one horned goat.

    Despite the immense numerical superiority of the Persian imperial forces and their possession of military equipment like war elephants, the tactical genius of young Alexander, with his disciplined Macedonian phalanx, proved decisive

    Due to previous attacks by the Persians, the Greeks retaliated against their enemies with unusual vengeance. Alexander won two significant battles in Asia Minor in 334 B.C. and in 333, first at the Granicus River and then at Issus in Phrygia. Alexander finally subdued Persia with a victory at Gaugamela near Nineveh in 331 B.C.

    It can not be denied that this was a fulfillment of Bible prophesy as this description clearly corresponds to that of the third beast in 7:6

  3. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    RISE OF ANTICHRIST CONTINUED- Daniel 8
    Alexander magnified himself exceedingly in two ways. He extended the borders of his empire after he conquered Medo-Persia even farther east, into modern Afghanistan and to the Indus Valley. He also became extremely arrogant. He regarded himself as divine and made his soldiers bow down before him. This resulted in his troops revolting….. and as a result, Alexander the, the great horn was broken as the text of verse 8 declares.

    Alexander, who had conquered more of the world than any previous ruler, was not able to conquer himself. Partly due to a strenuous exertion, his dissipated life, and a raging fever, Alexander died in a drunken debauch at Babylon, not yet thirty-three years of age. His death left a great conquest without an effective single leader, and it took about twenty years for the empire to be successfully divided, after his untimely death into four major sections

    The four horns of verse 8 that arose out of the broken horn represented to be Alexander are identified to be Lysimachus, Cassander, Seleucus, and Ptolemy (cf.11:4).
    Lysimachus ruled the northern part of Alexander’s empire, Cassander the western part, Seleucus the eastern part, and Ptolemy the southern part.

    However, saw another horn in verse in Daniel 8:9-14. Daniel reports that he saw a rather small horn (called a king in verse 23) grow out of one of the four horns (called kingdoms in verse 22) that had replaced the single horn (the first king, v. 21) on the goat (identified as Greece, v. 21). It is important to note that this horn or king or ruler is quite clearly different from the little horn that came up among the 10 horns on the fourth beast in the previous vision (cf. 7:8, 11, 24-26).

    This little horn is described in verse 9 as growing very great to the south, the east, and toward the pleasant land or “the beautiful” which is identified as a reference to Palestine (cf. 11:16, 41, 45; Jer. 3:19; Ezek. 20:6,15), or Israel.

    History has identified this little horn as Antiochus IV (Epiphanes), the eighth king of the Seleucid dynasty, who ruled Syria from 175 to 164 B.C. (cf. 1 Macc. 1:10; 6:16), and who conducted military campaigns in all of these directions (cf. 1 Macc. 1:20).

    In Daniel 8:10 we are told that this little horn grew up to the host of heaven, caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and trampled on them.

    It is believed that the stars refers to the children of Israel whom God predicted would be as numerous as the stars of heaven (Gen. 15:5; 22:17; 37:9-10; cf. Dan. 12:3; Matt. 13:43; Enoch 46:7), since the stars are said to constitute God’s armies (cf. Exod. 7:4;
    12:17, 51; Num. 33:1).

    In Daniel 8:10, the prophet’s vision begins to focus on the future of Israel and the Jews.Antiochus was especially vengeful against the Jews whom he persecuted brutally. In fact, He is one of the greatest persecutors Israel has ever known.

    In one of his assaults on Jerusalem, 40,000 Jews were killed in three days and 10,000 more were carried into captivity. But his suppression of the Jews came to a head in December 168 B.C., when Antiochus returned in frustration from Alexandria, where he had been turned back by the Roman commander Popilius Laenas, and vented his exasperation on the Jews.

    He sent his general, Apollonius, with twenty thousand troops under orders to seize Jerusalem on a Sabbath. There he erected an idol of Zeus and desecrated the altar by offering swine on it.

    This idol became known to the Jews as ‘the abomination of desolation’ (hassiqqus mesomem, 11:31), which served as a type of a future abomination that will be set up in the Jerusalem sanctuary to be built in the last days (cf. Christ’s prediction in Matt 24:15).

    Three years later, on December 25, 164 B.C., Judas Maccabaeus, a Jewish nationalist, led the Jews in rededicating the temple to Yahweh. This is the event that Jews have celebrated with Hanukkah ever since.

    Thus the little horn arising from the third kingdom serves as a prototype of the little horn of the fourth kingdom- the revised Roman Empire depicted in Daniel 2 & 7. This event has obviously not yet transpired.

    The crisis that was destined to confront God’s people in the time of the earlier little horn, Antiochus Epiphanes, and which did actually occur, as pointed out above, will bear a strong similarity to the crisis that will befall them in the eschatological or final phase of the fourth kingdom (the revised Roman Empire) in the last days (as Christ himself predicted in the Olivet Discourse [Matt 24:15]).

    This is the connection between this chapter Daniel 8 & Mathew 24 as pointed out by Jesus himself!

  4. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    RISE OF ANTICHRIST CONTINUED- Daniel 8

    Daniel 8:11 reveals that Antiochus (lit. illustrious one) effectively exalted himself to a position of superiority over Yahweh, the commander (or prince) of the host (the Jews), by temporarily terminating the constant sacrifices (Heb. tamid) in the temple, including the daily morning and evening sacrifices, thereby depriving Yahweh of His people’s worship (cf. 1 Macc. 1:44-49, RSV). Such an attack on the place set aside for worship of God is
    tantamount to an attack on God Himself.

    Apparently Antiochus did not actually tear down the temple, but he eventually desecrated it to such a point that it was hardly fit for use [cf. 1 Macc. 4:48]. Its overthrowing or casting down (as in the KJV) consisted in its being prevented from functioning as a place of worship of the true God.

    Antiochus’ actions anticipates or previews what the Antichrist, the little horn of chapter 7, will do in the future (cf. 7:8, 20).

    In Daniel 8:12 the notion that God would give control of the host (the Jews) to the little horn (Antiochus) because of transgression suggests that God would use Antiochus as His instrument of discipline as He had used so many other leaders and nations in Israel’s past because of Israel’s transgression (cf. 1 Macc. 1:44-49, RSV).

    Antiochus actually terminated the sacrifices, disregarded the truth by destroying the Torah scrolls, 1 Macc. 1:56), and generally did as he chose, and prospered for a time!

    In Daniel 8:13, the holy ones (Heb. qados) that Daniel heard conversing about the transgression of Antiochus were apparently angels (cf. 4:17), who wanted to know how long the desecration of the sanctuary and the persecution of the Jews would
    last. (The holy place is the temple, and the host is the Jews).

    In Daniel 8:14 we see that an angel replied but did so to Daniel with the intent to . The comfort him and his people, the Jews. The angel said that the desecration would last 2,300 evenings and mornings.

    There is much dispute among Bible scholars about the meaning of 2,300 evenings and mornings and innumerable explanations have been given to make the twenty-three hundred days coincide with the history of Antiochus Epiphanes.”.

    Regardless of how we solve the 2,300 evenings and mornings problem there is general agreement among the scholars that Antiochus fulfilled this prophecy. I personally think that the 2,300 days period describes the duration of the period when Antiochus did his worst to the temple and the Jews (167-164 B.C.).

  5. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    RISE OF ANTICHRIST CONTINUED- Daniel 8
    Daniel gives the interpretation of this vision in Daniel 8:15-26

    As in the vision recorded in Daniel 7:16, Daniel needed help understanding what he had seen. He saw someone who looked like a man standing before him. Evidently this was an angel. Daniel also heard a voice that he could understand, possibly God’s, instructing the angel by name to give Daniel understanding of the vision.

    “Gabriel” (lit. “God has shown Himself strong,” “strong man of God,” or “man of God”) is one of only two angels, and the first, that the Bible identifies by name, the other being Michael (cf. 9:21; 10:13, 21; 12:1; Luke 1:19, 26).

    When Gabriel’s approached Daniel he was so fearful that he prostrated himself on the ground. Gabriel then introduced his interpretation by explaining to Daniel that the vision concerned “the time of the end” or the end times (cf. v. 19).

    The vision dealt with events yet future from Daniel’s viewpoint in history. Daniel’s response to Gabriel’s awesome presence and words was that he fainted. Gabriel then proceeded to revive the prophet and to prepare him to receive the remainder of the interpretation.

    In Daniel 8:19 Gabriel clarified that what he was going to explain dealt with “the final period of the indignation” and “the appointed time of the end.” Clearly this was future from Daniel’s point in history. But there is dispute as to whether this refers to the time of Antiochus Epiphanes exclusively, or does it refer to the end times before Jesus Christ returns, or both?

    Most premillennial interpreters believe that it refers to both in some sense, either as a double fulfillment, or as a type and antitype. This conclusion rests on what follows in verses 23-25 and on other uses of the phrase “the end” in Daniel (9:26; 11:6, 27, 35, 40, 45; 12:4, 6, 9, 13).

    We see in verses 20-22 that Gabriel identified the ram with the two horns as Media and Persia (cf. vv.3-4), and that he further identified the rough goat as Greece (cf. vv. 5-7).

    The large horn on the goat is the first king of Greece, namely, Alexander the Great. The four kingdoms that arose to replace Alexander when he died were Macedonia and Greece, Thrace and Asia Minor, Egypt and Palestine, and Syria and Persia (cf. v. 8).

    Most conservative expositors agree that verses 20-22 have been fulfilled completely in history in connection with the Medo-Persian and Greek empires and the four divisions
    following Alexander the Great.

    With respect to Daniel 8:23-25, almost all scholars recognize that Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled what Gabriel predicted in these verses (cf. 1 Macc. 1:10).

    He arose in the latter period of the Diacochi, the four kingdoms that came into existence after Alexander’s death, following many transgressors of God’s will. Antiochus Epiphanes was bold and deceptive. He was powerful because God allowed him to be so. He did much damage, especially to Jerusalem and the temple. He became prosperous and carried out his objectives.

    He destroyed powerful people, including the Jewish high priest, as well as many Jews. He fooled many people with his shrewdness, some of whom were unsuspecting. He exalted himself even to the extent of minting coins that bore his image and the inscription “God manifest” (Gr. Theos epiphanes). He also opposed God, the “Prince of princes.”

    Many students of these verses have noticed striking similarities between Antiochus Epiphanes as described here and another political leader predicted to appear in the future (cf. 7:8, 11, 21-22, 24-26; 9:27; 11:36-45; 12:11; Matt. 24:5, 23-24, 26; Mark 13:6, 21-22; Luke 21:8; 2 Thess 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2 John 7; Rev. 13:1-10; 19:20; 20:10). Such students, and I, conclude that these verses are prophetic of the Antichrist aswell as of Antiochus.

    It seems that Antiochus did on a smaller scale what Antichrist will do on a larger one. Apparently in the much later period of the rule of these kings, namely, the end times, transgressors will have run their course even more completely. The Antichrist will oppose the Prince of princes, God the Son, who will break him without human
    agency (Ps. 2; Rev. 19:19-20).

    One of the key things about the Antichrist is that he will use witchcraft, and that he will come to power on a false promise of PEACE! He will mimic the Prince of Peace by offering what will be a false peace. There will be no true peace until the Prince of Peace returns to usher in peace.

    In Daniel 8:26, the prophet was instructed to seal up this ” vision of the evenings and mornings” in the sense of recording, finishing, and preserving it, not in the sense of making it secret. He was to do this because the vision pertained to many days in the future, namely, four centuries later in the first instance, as well as beyond then in the end times in the second instance.

    This is called the law of double mention. Other examples of this double or typological fulfillment are Jesus fulfilling what was prophesied of and
    fulfilled to some degree by Moses, the Israelites, and David.

    The knowledge that severe persecution was in store for his people in the future “the holy people” (v. 24) distressed Daniel greatly. This experience so drained him of energy that he was sick for several days and could not work. (8:27)

    The emphasis in this chapter is on the little horn, as the emphasis in chapter 7 was on the little horn, though two different individuals are in view. The little horn in chapter 7 is Antichrist, and the little horn in chapter 8 is Antiochus in the short range and Antichrist in the long range. Chapter 8 focuses on the Jews as the target
    the short range.

    Chapter 7 focuses on believers generally as the target of Antichrist’s
    opposition. However, there is some hint in both chapters that in the long range the Jews will be the objects of persecution.

    “The times of the Gentiles”, although not entirely a period of persecution of
    Israel, has often resulted in great trial to them.

    Of the four great world empires
    anticipated by Daniel, only the Persian empire was relatively kind to the
    Jew. As Christ Himself indicated in Luke 21:24, the times of the Gentiles
    is characterized by the treading down of Jerusalem, and the subjugation
    and persecution of the people of Israel.”

    Again we stress that in Mathew 24:15 Jesus said When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

  6. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Hog Squeal

    Romans 13 “For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.” Does not mean that a people will not some ties have a bad leader. It means that God allows certain leaders to come to the fore for GOD’s purposes; whether we see those purposes to be good or bad or to our benefit or not.

    Maybe God has indeed sent Mr. Thompson to put the people of this Land under financial stress. Maybe God allowed us to have what we thought we deserved.

    You seem to think that Thompson has all this power to put people under financial stress. Perhaps Thompson lacks the power or knowledge or finesse to solve the problems facing Bim. Perhaps the global financial meltdown is too hard for him to cope.

    Maybe the BU family should star the BU party as an alternative to the DLP & BLP. I will be Minister of Health David! LOL

    I touting MME for PM, Bush Tea for the Ministry of Philosophy! I even have a pick for Hopi, Technician, Not Saved and Rohan! David BU will be the Speaker of the House and Yard Broom the Venerable Governor General!

    I want wunnah to agree to give me JC as my personal aide!

  7. Sargeant Avatar
    Sargeant

    @GP

    I will be Minister of Health David

    ******************************

    I think Minister of Religious Affairs would be a better pick

  8. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Sargeant did you see my proposals to improve the National Health Care System on BU since early last year?

    Have Donville or Dr Loud Mout achieved even 1% of that?

    For a Christ Church Foundation man you dissapoint me even though I know you were offering a compliment.

    Sargeant I sorry but according to the “Kingo” scale of marking I gwine have to give you no marks man……..NO FACTS NO MARKS. I know I hard pun you but that is the current state imposed by the global meltdown. LOL Maybe I would of ease up pin a man like BT and give he 1 or 2, but a Ch Ch man like you ought to know better man!

  9. Sargeant Avatar
    Sargeant

    @GP

    I saw your National Health Care proposals but you make such convincing arguments in defending your faith that a backslider like me can’t help but be impressed. I thought that you wouldn’t need the extra stress of taking on the Health Establishment in B’dos but would relish the thought of getting the country back on the straight and narrow and to prepare for the inevitable..

    Oh No!! not nought man, how will I explain that on my Report Card? LOL

  10. J Avatar
    J

    So Georgie Porgie:

    Tell me what “Cabinet” pick you gie Hopi?

  11. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    @ J
    Education with special emphasis on Black History!
    @ Sargeant
    Ok . On second thoughts your concern ought to be taken into consideration, but we need the job done properly!

    I suppose that the stress of taking on the Health Establishment in B’dos might not be as hard as getting the country back on the straight and narrow and to prepare for the inevitable..

    I am sorry that I cant change your mark, son, because you suppose to know the marking scale.

    As a consollation I will give you an all expenses in month trip to Swambogey Land with the wife, including adequate time on newly made canoes from mango seeds.

    You can not say that I am an unreasonable judge, even though I could not give you a pardon for your sins.

    BTW did you attend the Parish church and go to Sunday school there too?

  12. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    What cabinet spot you have for me?

  13. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    You can help MME in the PM’s office man. Where else?

  14. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    You and Rohan!
    Wunnah got brain.
    Wunnah dont know the Bible proper but I wont hold that against wunnah LOL. Nor Hopi. LOL

  15. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Thanks !

    Yes I will help out MME, he will make a good PM.

  16. Sargeant Avatar
    Sargeant

    @GP

    I went to Church and Sunday School there for a short time while still in short pants when A I Johnson in charge. I think Crichlow was there also there as an assistant at the time. I continued at another Anglican church…. Can’t say which one but in Ch.Ch.

  17. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    @ NOt SavedWell let we convene and do this thing! We have three years to pull it off! LOL

    @ Sargeant
    Can you remember what years? I attended from 62-68 when AI was there. Crichlow and I McK Jones was also there.
    So you then went to St Davids or St Christopher or St Bartholomew or St Patricks? Where did you live? The only other Anglican churches in Ch Ch are St Lawrence & St Mathias.

  18. JJ Avatar
    JJ

    Dear Georgie Porgie,

    Just playing catch up! Thank you for your welcome. I look forward to intelligently discussing these issues with you and others. Please excuse me if I take time to reply. I have only limited internet access.

    You wrote…

    QUOTE: “Revelation 6-19 deals with the judgement that will be meted out on the earth and on men, on the false church and on the world system including its commerce.”

    We are in agreement here. Granted, this is a very general overview – it is one sentence summarizing 14 chapters.

    QUOTE: “I don’t agree with you since there are several verses that teach about the judgement of God. I am sure that you have read them. Perhaps you can inform me why you think that a loving God wont punish ungodly men severely in the light of 2 Peter 3:9 inter alia”

    This is a misunderstanding here. I most certainly believe that God is love and that He will punish the ungodly according to the Scriptures. I certainly believe in the judgment and I believe that it’s already begun with professed believers. However the original context of my rhetorical question is that it is inconsistent with the character of God to do His strange work of punishing (executing judgment on) those who have been forced to receive a microchip and specifically I gave the example of how certain parents may choose for their CHILDREN to receive a chip implant. They may make this choice because of fear / pressure since everyone else is doing it, or for security reasons – power of control / to monitor their children. The children have no choice in the matter – say they are so young they can barely speak. They grow up with this implant within them. Then I asked the question, will God then pour out His final wrath upon these children who receive this ‘chip’ without a choice in the matter? How would that vindicate God’s character? Would He be glorified?

    QUOTE: Re “The saints are in heaven in Rev 4, the aints are not!”
    Q Please kindly me enlighten me as to what you consider the phrase “ Come up hither” means in Revelation 4:1. In its primary interpretation John is addressed. Most scholars believe that this invitation also signifies the rapture. I hold to that view.”

    “Come up hither” is a unique summons that Jesus gives to John. John is in vision and is asked to voluntarily come up from where he is on earth to the throne room in heaven. There is no reference to a ‘rapture’ of saints here because the whole context is about what John is going to be shown with regards to what will happen shortly hereafter.

    QUOTE: “I would be interested to hear you view of when the saints do go to heaven in the light of Paul’s pronouncement in 1 Thessalonians 5:10, and where you place their ascent relative to the teachings in Revelation.”

    1Thess 5:10 “Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.” In context, Paul is speaking about “that day,” which is the “day of the Lord,” verse 2. In other words, AT THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST, the saints go to heaven. Not before. In terms of Revelation, this ascent of the saints is placed whenever the second coming is spoken about. This is found throughout the book. A specific reference would be Revelation 11:12.

    QUOTE: “Q Why don’t you think that the saints are in heaven by Revelation 4?
    By the aints (was rhyming with saints) refer to those who have not received Jesus as Savior before the rapture.”

    If the “saints” refer to all who are saved, then they are not in heaven by Rev 4 simply because Christ has not come yet to resurrect them to life everlasting. However Enoch, Moses, Elijah, the 24 Elders and those who were raised in Matt 27:51-53 (the last 2 groups may overlap) ARE in heaven because God has taken them there.

    QUOTE: “Q Why do you think that the 24 Elders in Revelation 4 are redeemed human beings. What is your biblical warrant for this?”

    These ‘elders’ are mentioned twelve times in Revelation (4:4, 10; 5:8, 11, 14; 7:11-13; 11:16; 14:3; 19:4) and are distinguished from the angels of God (5:11; 7:11). They are humans, for only the human race needs to be REDEEMED (Revelation 5:9). That is the biblical warrant.

    QUOTE: “No one knows what the mark will be exactly.. I believe that the mark is a literal mark as I believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible including Revelation. We do know that use of microchips is prevalent by vets in the USA to monitor the whereabouts of people’s precious stray pets, and that they are also used for recording financial information. My view which I have clearly articulated is that microchips might very well be utilized in the application of the mark and its monitoring and enforcement along with several other technologies which have come on stream in let0s say (to be conservative) the last 100 years or so. You are free to disagree, but could you give your views on the possible use of any technology with respect to the mark of the beast? I said in my previous post that there are a range of technologies now in vogue, that people take for granted and as the norm, that way well be incorporated in the mark of the beast and might be used in its application, monitoring and enforcement. I stand by that. Life was going on as usual when the flood came, and life will be going on as usual when the rapture occurs, and when the events that occur afterwards occurs.”

    Why would God pronounce His most solemn threatening (in Rev 14) against those who receive the mark of the beast AND NOT TELL US WHAT THAT MARK IS? There are many who do know exactly what that mark will be. It is not God’s design that anyone should be kept in the dark regarding the final controversy. I’ll let you know my thoughts after responding to this reply.

    QUOTE: “I see that you don’t believe in the rapture. Please show me that there will be no rapture!”

    If by the term “rapture,” you mean the vanishing of millions of Christians leaving the non-Christians behind, then there are literally tons of verses and passages that demonstrate this to be a farce. I will go through them on a separate post.

    QUOTE: “Whereas I agree with you that God also marks the 144,000., he does not have to enforce or monitor this mark like the beast. These folk are quite willing to suffer or die for taking the mark. Can you amplify why God’s mark would be different from the Beast’s mark?”
    God’s end time mark and the mark of the beast are opposites. They show who we line ourselves with – God or Satan. The mark of the beast is Satan’s attempt at counterfeiting the Seal of God. And as you’ve said, God never forces.

    QUOTE: “Whereas there will be no real prostitute riding a beast but you better believe that the false church symbolized by the name MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS in Revelation 17:5 and the cosmos diabolicus and the world’s economic system that will be destroyed in Revelation 18 are prostitutes by their behavior.”

    A few sentences ago, you said that you “believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible including Revelation.” Then why is this prostitute not a literal whore riding a literal beast. You’ve just dropped your own rule of interpretation. You see, my point is that much symbolic imagery is used in representing the end times.

    QUOTE: “Even to day much of Christendom is prostituting itself for filthy lucres sake, and world governments and the banking system and other facets of the cosmos diabolicus and the world’s economic system are bone fide prostitutes!”

    It goes a lot deeper than that. Spiritual adultery is prostitution. Apostasy is prostitution. There is widespread impurity doctrinally and practically. Characters are not being formed according to Christ.

    QUOTE: “I understand from my studies of Hermeneutics what symbols and types and allegories and litotes etc etc are So I unders tand Genesis 4:15, ” Deuteronomy 6:6, 8 and Deuteronomy 11:18 etc. I look forward to you demonstrating your view of how the mark of the beast will be applied, monitored and enforced.”

    Thank you Georgie Porgie. I hope to plainly lay out the mark of the beast issue asap.

  19. JJ Avatar
    JJ

    Dear Zoe,

    Thank you for your reply.

    I’d like for you to follow this thought… We all know guns are bad because they can kill. Whenever we see a gun or even hear the word ‘gun’ we associate our thoughts with violence and blood, etc. That’s obvious.

    However, the Scriptures say in Revelation 19:20, “He deceived them that had received the mark of the beast.” Notice that word ‘DECEIVED.’

    Those who receive the mark of the beast are deceived. It stands to reason therefore that the mark of the beast must not be too obvious or easily noticed. If it were, how could almost the entire world be mislead??

    Jesus warned us that Satan’s deceptions are so deceptive they can “deceive, if possible, even the elect.” Matthew 24:24.

    How deceptive would it be for someone to command everyone to accept a microchip in their foreheads or in their hands? How many real people do you know who would accept big government implanting biochip technology inside their heads?

  20. JJ Avatar
    JJ

    I do observe the seventh day Sabbath according to God’s commandment.

    If I am a ‘rat’ because I’m ‘Sabbatarian’, then what is God? For it is written that He rested on the seventh day. And what is Jesus, who’s custom it was to observe the Sabbath.

  21. JJ Avatar
    JJ

    QUOTE: Zoe: “I know exactly where you are coming from, JJ, I can smell a ‘rat’ plainly in some of your comments, an obvious ‘Sabbatarian’ no doubt!”

    Georgie Porgie: “I figured as much Zoe. I hope you can exegete Galatians, cause we will have some real LAW goo being spouted. You always got to look for the googly with these folk.”

    Well, both your suspicions are correct, But for those who may not be so aware, then let me state it definitively: THE MARK OF THE BEAST IS COERCIVE SUNDAY OBSERVANCE, DEFIANTLY LINKED WITH A DETERMINATION TO WORSHIP GOD IN OUR OWN WAY IN SPITE OF CHRIST’S END TIME MINISTRY ON OUR BEHALF BESIDE THE LAW OF GOD IN THE MOST HOLY PLACE OF THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY.

  22. JJ Avatar
    JJ

    Let’s begin…

  23. JJ Avatar
    JJ

    WHAT IS SIN?

  24. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    JJ
    Whereas, we clearly do not agree on many things, besides Zoe, you are one of very persons who have come on BU who has made an attempt at intelligently discussing any Biblical issue. This is heartening.

    My point, on which we agree that
    “Revelation 6-19 deals with the judgement that will be meted out on the earth and on men, on the false church and on the world system including its commerce.” Was/is indeed a very general overview that summarizes 14 chapters in one sentence.
    .
    QUOTE: I gave the example of how certain parents may choose for their CHILDREN to receive a chip implant. They may make this choice because of fear / pressure since everyone else is doing it, or for security reasons – power of control / to monitor their children. The children have no choice in the matter – say they are so young they can barely speak. They grow up with this implant within them. Then I asked the question, will God then pour out His final wrath upon these children who receive this ‘chip’ without a choice in the matter? How would that vindicate God’s character? Would He be glorified?

    Sir, again let me stress that I don’t know that microchips will be used as the mark, I do know that there are commonly used in the USA by vets to assist in the tracking of lost pets, and there are being used for giving medicines and for banking purposes already. It is not unreasonable, therefore, to expect them along with other contemporary technologies to be incorporated into a system of application and monitoring of the mark.

    Regardless to the form the mark takes, children will most likely have to take it according to all the scenarios above that you mention. I can not pontificate as to what God or will not do with respect to the judgement of little- nor can you. Nor are we in a position to question what will vindicate God’s character or cause Him to be glorified, except in matters in which he has clearly thus stated in His Word. I tend not to speculate about matters that are unclear from God’s Word. However, one might think that whatever means that God uses currently to deal with children who die before they reach an age of understanding, would be applied in this scenario. But why not leave the judging to God?

    The issue we were trying to consider is what is the mark and how MIGHT IT be manifested, applied and monitored. My opinion was delivered from the point of view that prophesy is/has always best be interpreted as it occurs, and that God gives his people knowledge, or discernment of what He is about to do (cf Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Moses etc etc

    You wrote “Come up hither” is a unique summons that Jesus gives to John. John is in vision and is asked to voluntarily come up from where he is on earth to the throne room in heaven. There is no reference to a ‘rapture’ of saints here because the whole context is about what John is going to be shown with regards to what will happen shortly hereafter.
    On that we agree, to a point. In chapters 1-3 of Revelation, there is discussion about the 7 churches. Many see this as a panorama of the church age or the age of grace. After chapter 6, there is judgement. On the basis of Paul’s teaching that the saints are not subject to God’s wrath, they must be in heaven before the judgements start.

    Now I know that some folk differ with respect to WHEN the saints are raptured, and some believe that there is no rapture at all!

    You state that the saints go to heaven AT THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST, and not before but you seem not to know, or understand or believe that the second coming involves two phases, as the Scriptures clearly teach.. In one phase (the rapture or parousia) the Lord meets the saints in the air in a secret coming; in the second phase ( the epiphanea or glorious appearing) he comes down to earth to win the battle of Armageddon, and every eye shall see Him.

    You state that In terms of Revelation, this ascent of the saints is placed whenever the second coming is spoken about. This is found throughout the book. A specific reference would be Revelation 11:12. My friend you have left out the details man. Note that the second phase of the second coming is well described throughout the OT. The first phase or rapture or parousia is referred to by Paul in I Cor 15 as a MYSTERY. That is it is a truth that had never before revealed in the Bible.

    You need to forget your denominational dogma, and with an open mind read the Bible (perhaps with the help of a Systematic Theology where all the Scriptures on the doctrine are extracted and laid bare) and find ALL the references to the parousia as set out in the NT. You will find that you might learn a lot. I found that I learned many things and re- learned many things when I read the Word for myself or good commentaries that set out the various positions on a controversial issue, and discusses them in the light of all the relevant scriptures! TRY IT SOMETIME.

    I asked Why don’t you think that the saints are in heaven by Revelation 4?

    You responded.
    If the “saints” refer to all who are saved, then they are not in heaven by Rev 4 simply because Christ has not come yet to resurrect them to life everlasting. However Enoch, Moses, Elijah, the 24 Elders and those who were raised in Matt 27:51-53 (the last 2 groups may overlap) ARE in heaven because God has taken them there.

    Will you read John 5:29. I Cor 15:51 et secq, I Thes 4:13-18 & Revelation 20: 5 et secq and ask the Lord to help you to see that there are TWO RESURECTIONS, and reason that these are separated from eah other it seems by at least 1007 years?

    You ask Why would God pronounce His most solemn threatening (in Rev 14) against those who receive the mark of the beast AND NOT TELL US WHAT THAT MARK IS?

    The Bible tells us that the mark is 666 and that it will be applied to the forehead or right hand. It says nothing else. So God has indeed made his solemn threat, as you say and not told us what the mark actually is. Our opinions of what the mark might be have come to the fore as the time approaches.

    You say : There are many who do know exactly what that mark will be. It is not God’s design that anyone should be kept in the dark regarding the final controversy. I’ll let you know my thoughts after responding to this reply.

    I look forward to your opinion or denominational dogma.
    As I discerned it is clear that you don’t believe in the rapture. I assure you that the literal tons of verses and passages that demonstrate this to be a farce, ought to be hilarious spouting of denominational dogma.

    You say :
    A few sentences ago, you said that you “believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible including Revelation.” Then why is this prostitute not a literal whore riding a literal beast. You’ve just dropped your own rule of interpretation.

    NO I DID NOT. Whereas I believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, I also recognize all the various figures of speech employed at various points and I said so. Another poster went at length on one of the other threads recently to present al of these; including simile, metaphor, litotes, anthropomorphism, symbols, types, allegory etc

    Whereas much symbolic imagery is used in representing the end times in Revelation, there are many scriptures about the eschaton that are presented all through the Bible in clear simple English, that can only be muddied by denominational dogma.

    You ask Zoe a few questions such as

    How many real people do you know who would accept big government implanting biochip technology inside their heads?
    MANY. People being deceived by government is the NORM. It happens everyday.
    Even today, there is talk in the USA about this issue.
    Last week the idea of attaching GPS to all cars so that they can be tract down by police at anytime, AND MANY CALLED IN TO SAY THEY SEE NO PROBLEM IN IT ONCE YOU HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE!

    Just as we have accepted credit cards, bar coding, microchipping of pets, and microchipping for medicine and banking. It is not hard to conceive going the whole hog as it were.

    The mark does not have to be microchips. But the mark does sound like it will be inter alia like a credit card as it will allow you to buy and sell. Already today in some countries you cant get a hotel room or rent a car without a credit card. Jus as possessing a credit card today suggests that one is credit worthy, possessing the Beasts “ credit card” will do the same for the system at that time..

    You say Those who receive the mark of the beast are deceived. It stands to reason therefore that the mark of the beast must not be too obvious or easily noticed. If it were, how could almost the entire world be mislead??

    THAT’S A NONSEQUITUR. Read 2 Thes 2:8- 12. That should make things a little clearer. And don’t ask me why should God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe THE lie, cause I DON’T KNOW.

    8. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming
    9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    I believe that most of the world are generally deceived by their political leaders , so for a leader with the charisma of the Antichrist to deceive them will be as easy as drinking coconut water on a hot hot day.

  25. Hog Squeal Avatar
    Hog Squeal

    Georgie Porgie said:

    “Maybe God has indeed sent Mr. Thompson to put the people of this Land under financial stress. Maybe God allowed us to have what we thought we deserved.

    You seem to think that Thompson has all this power to put people under financial stress. Perhaps Thompson lacks the power or knowledge or finesse to solve the problems facing Bim. Perhaps the global financial meltdown is too hard for him to cope.”

    *************************

    Even if Clico bought the government, truth is the DLP now cannot get the country run. My principle point is that the DLP came to office in sin – having bought the government.

    Greed, deception, lies; misrepresentation of fact – all sin.

    That a group of people would be so determine and go to such extreme to rule and do the DEVILS work, such as the inhumane treatment of immigrant just like Hitler treated the JEWS – has to be a out-fit sent by the DEVIL and carrying the mark of the BEAST.

    How then, each time the DLP is in office, – crime increases, so too hunger, economic pain and sufferring, domestic violence, and a lowering of the bar, as it relates to a moral minimum?

    Thompson is th Antichrist and the DLP’s logo is the mark or symbol of the BEAST.

    Georgie Porgie, I am convinced

  26. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Hog Squeal

    Re Thompson is th Antichrist and the DLP’s logo is the mark or symbol of the BEAST.

    Georgie Porgie, I am convinced

    LOL I CAN SEE THAT YOU ARE SIR!
    But I discussing what the Bible says about the BEAST that is to come at a later date.

    BTW throughout the ages, many have felt the same way about Hitler and other leaders.

  27. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    JJ, Would you be kind enough to identify if you are an Seventh-day Adventist?

    Also, I NEVER called you a ‘rat’ when I said ‘I smell a rat’ it clearly meant, ‘I suspect’ that you are a Sabatarian, no more no less!

    Why did Jesus oberseve the Sabbath?

    You said, “The Mark of the Beast is Satan’s attempt at counterfieting the Seal of God.”

    What is the ‘Seal of God?” Prove from Scripture, not implication, or dogma, what or Who is the Seal of God?

  28. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    To all who are interested

    There are in Barbados, the USA and other places church gatherings that are emerging from their denominations and thier church dogma, and meeting around the Word, and seeking to sincerely ascertain what the Bible really teaches, instead of adhering to the traditions of thier fore parents.

    There was such a movement in 1820 or so when John Darby and others departed from the Anglican church of Ireland, and formed what became the “Plymouth Brethren” (because the largest group soon began to meet at Plymouth in England.)

  29. Hog Squeal Avatar
    Hog Squeal

    You are right, I am serious:

    That a group of people would be so determine and go to such extreme to rule and do the DEVILS work, such as the inhumane treatment of immigrant just like Hitler treated the JEWS – has to be a out-fit sent by the DEVIL and carrying the mark of the BEAST.

    How then, each time the DLP is in office, – crime increases, so too hunger, economic pain and sufferring, domestic violence, and a lowering of the bar, as it relates to a moral minimum?

  30. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    @JJ, Jesus said:

    “Think not that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to FULFILL. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until ALL is acomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt. 5:17-19). emphasis added.

    Now, in John we read:

    “After this, Jesus, knowing that ALL THINGS had been ACCOMPLISHED, in order that Scripture might be FULFILLED, said, ‘I am thirsty.” (John 19:28-30).

    This verse is extremely important to a correct understanding of Matthew 5: 17-19. For, it is here that we find that Jesus had already ‘accomplished’ all but one of the prophecies regarding His life and death of the Messiah. One thing, however still remained to be ‘fulfilled’ so Jesus said, ‘I thirst.’

    When we let Scripture interpret Scripture, as a sound principle in Biblical hermeneutics, the meaning of this passage becomes evident. Notice how it fits perfectly into the context. In the book of Matthew we find this passage coming soon after Jesus gave His “blessings” on the mount. It comes just before the six times He says. “You have heard…BUT I say unto you.” In the context it is obvious and evident that Jesus is taking authority to Himself greater than that of old covenant law. It would be very easy for His listeners to conclude that He was completely doing away with the binding nature of the old covenant. This He will do, BUT, not before He completely FULFILLS the prophesies, types and shadows which pointed forward to His work as Messiah and Saviour of the world which are recorded in the law. Therefore, the law must continue UNTIL He has ACCOMPLISHED eveerything. This did in fact happen, as John said, at the death of Jesus.

    Now, if one were to conclude that Jesus was teaching the continuing of the law in this passage, the Christian would immediately be faced with a dilemma. For Scripture expressly states that ‘not one thing, not even the smallest punctuation mark, is to be removed from the law. Thus, if the Christian (Sabbatarian) is going to use this text to prove the perpetuity of the old covenant law, he must also use it to prove the binding nature of ALL old covenant law. In the writing to the Galatians, Paul warned his readers that tey could NOT take only part of the law and leave the rest. Hear Paul, and man versed in the Law, second only to Jesus.

    “I testify again to every man who received circumcision, that he is UNDER OBLIGATION to KEEP the WHOLE LAW.” (Gal 5:3)

    Circumcision, Sabbath keeping, etc, etc, was all part of what Jesus DID, in order to completely FULFILL the Law and the Prophets, perfectly, so that the New Testament Church is not required to keep the Sabbath, as any requirement, in order not to take the so-called Mark of the Beast, ‘Sunday’ worship, as our Sabbatarian friends have insisted.

    A vitally important word as Jesus used in Matthew 5_ 17-19, is to ‘FULFILL.’

    As we can only understand “I did not come to abolish” contrasted with ‘But to FULFILL’ which in fact He did do, thereby, rendering any and all Old Testament legal law requirement, as FINALLY, and completely fulfiled by The Lord Jesus Christ, once and for all.

    And this is made abundantly clear by the meaning of the Greek word, that the Holy Spirit used in recording God’s Word in the NT.

    Fulfill is from the Gk ‘pleroo’ meaning, ‘Full, to make full, fill, to fulfill, bring to a full end, accomplish, complete. By implication, to fill out, complete, make perfect, accomplish and end. ( Matt 5:17; Phil 2:2; 2 Thess 1:1). In the passive, to be made full, complete (Luke 22:16; John 3:29; 15:11; 16:24; 17:3; 2 Cor. 10:6; I John 1:4; 2 John 1:12; Rev. 3:2). Of persons (Col 4:12).

    The above is just scratching the surface of this subject matter.

  31. Hog Squeal Avatar
    Hog Squeal

    The question is – why is it that each time the DLP is in office – crime increases, so too hunger, economic pain and sufferring, domestic violence, and a lowering of the bar, as it relates to a moral minimum?

  32. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    @JJ
    Re Well, both your suspicions are correct

    Indeed, some of us can spot the googly from the time it leaves the hand, and again when it hits the pitch!

    Re
    THE MARK OF THE BEAST IS COERCIVE SUNDAY OBSERVANCE, DEFIANTLY LINKED WITH A DETERMINATION TO WORSHIP GOD IN OUR OWN WAY IN SPITE OF CHRIST’S END TIME MINISTRY ON OUR BEHALF BESIDE THE LAW OF GOD IN THE MOST HOLY PLACE OF THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY.

    JJ you disappoint me. After a reasonable start you have descended to the depths only seen on this forum by a certain joker to whom I no longer respond.

    Please don’t insult our intelligence with your denominational dogma.

    How can the COERCIVE SUNDAY OBSERVANCE, DEFIANTLY LINKED WITH A DETERMINATION TO WORSHIP GOD IN OUR OWN WAY IN SPITE OF CHRIST’S END TIME MINISTRY ON OUR BEHALF BESIDE THE LAW OF GOD IN THE MOST HOLY PLACE OF THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY be a MARK that is 666 and placed on the forehead of the right hand of folk in the tribulation period.

    Please make sense! May I remind you we are not men talking nonsense in a rum shop, or the men that talk in like manner when they congregate on my father’s porch after matins or mass every Sunday!

    Re WHAT IS SIN?
    Sin is defined thus explicitly in Scriptures such as
    1- 1 John 5: 17 All unrighteousness is sin.
    2- missing the mark or coming short as in Romans 3: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (See the Greek)
    3- James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, THAT IS SIN!
    4- Romans 14:23b for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

    Please dont come with junk about NOT keeping the Sabbath!, or NOT KEEPING THE LAW OF MOSES OR THOSE PARTS OF THE LAW YOUR DENOMINATIONAL DOGMA PRESCRIBES.

  33. Hog Squeal Avatar
    Hog Squeal

    This first term of David Thompson is looking a lot like the last term of Erskine Sandiford but this country cannot take another four years of 8%-cut-Sandi.

    Between 1991 and 1994 when Erskine Sandiford ran the Barbados economy into the ground, he turned to David Thompson and made him Minister of Finance.

    Now that Thompson has triggered a meltdown of the Barbados economy, he turns to Sandiford, to who he is a going to sub-let the economy leadership of the Barbados economy, for the next four years.

  34. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    JJ

    Not only is your definition of the mark of the beast unscriptural and unsensible, but your answer reveals that you have taken the text about what the mark as mentioned in Revelation far out of context.

    Such denominational dogma and diatribe not supported by Scriptures properly divided in thier context will be severely dealt with on this thread.

    So take fresh gaurd and exegete correctly.

    Please understand that blog members expect the WORD TO BE CORRECTLY DIVIDED, and that TEXT BE QUOTED & DEALT WITH WITHIN THIER CONTEXTS.

    To begin with please explain and exegete Galatians 3: 24-25, even though this has nothing to do with the mark of the beast.

  35. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    RISE OF THE ANTICHRIST continued EXEGESIS OF 2 Thessalonians 2 1-12 part 1

    As we develop the teaching on the antichrist further, we will exegete the first 12 verses of 2 Thessalonians 2 .

    Today I listened to Adrian Rogers preach on this subject .Here is his amazing outline

    1- THE MOCKERY OF GOD IS RECOUNTED v 3
    2- THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY IS RESTRAINED v 6
    3- THE MINISTRY OF THE SPIRIT WILL BE REMOVED (verse 6&7)
    4- THE MASTERY OF SATAN IS RELEASED v 7
    5 THE MISERY OF MAN IS REDOUBLED v 11-12
    6 THE MAJESTY OF THE SAVIOR IS REVEALED v 8

    You can listen at
    http://www.oneplace.com/Ministries/Love_Worth_Finding/archives.asp?bcd=12/11/2008

    The events discussed in 2 Thessalonians2 are:-
    1] The rapture of the church (verse 1)
    2] The day of the Lord (verse 2)
    3] The falling away or apostasy (verse3)
    4] The revelation of the man of sin or Antichrist or Man of lawlessness (verses 3, 4,& 8)
    5] The removal of the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit from the world (verse 6&7)
    6] The working of signs, power, lying wonders &deceit by the Man of Sin or Antichrist
    7] The delusion and damnation of the unbelievers.

    The context of II Thessalonians Chapter 2 was a doctrinal error that had crept into the Thessalonian church that Paul had to correct in order to stabilize the church.

    This was juxtaposed to the fact that the Thessalonian Christians were suffering great persecution, and some of them had begun to think that they were passing through “the great tribulation” of which Christ spoke as the terrible time which should precede His coming and that the day of the Lord was already present.

    They were disturbed about the time of the Lord’s coming and were entertaining wrong views as to the nearness of His return. This was unsettling their lives. The reason for this was that a forged letter and report, both supposed to have come from the apostle Paul, had confused the church and added fuel to the fire. (2 Thess.2:2)

    In verses 1-2 Paul introduced his teaching by urging his readers not to be shaken from their adherence to the truth he had taught them about the Rapture in 1 Thess. 4:13-18 by what they were now hearing from others, who were telling them that the day of the Lord or the Tribulation had already begun (v. 2).
    .
    This seemed to be a distinct possibility to the Thessalonians, who were experiencing intense persecution for their faith. Since they knew from the Old Testament scriptures, that the Tribulation period would be a time of tribulation as well as blessing, this new teaching seemed feasible.

    For a common phenomenon among believers who believe in the imminent end of the age it sometimes happens that people’s expectations exceed their patience.

    Many people throughout church history have confused the teaching of the apostles that Christ COULD come at any moment (for believers at the Rapture) and the unbiblical idea that He WOULD come at any moment. The first correct view is the doctrine of imminence, but the second incorrect view involves date setting, and is contravention to the Lords teaching in the Olivet Discourse

    The Lord’s coming at the rapture, will be “sudden” but sudden does not necessarily mean “immediate.” The scriptures teach that we are to wait anxiously for this time when the Lord will gather His children to Himself. Christ tells us always to be ready. The “day of the Lord” is “at hand” but it will not come until certain things take place. God always follows a program.

    The coming again of Christ to the earth is the great future event that the Church has looked forward to since Christ ascended from the Mount of Olives and the two men in white apparel said that this same Jesus would so come in like manner as He went into heaven. (See Acts 1:11.)

    Because of its greatness it has overshadowed all other events. It is “at hand” because it looms so big. In his three week stay with them, Paul had taught the Thessalonian Christians much about the Lord’s coming. He had obviously taught them other truths, but all other things fell into insignificance in proportion to its grandeur and importance.

    This is a picture of Christ’s coming again in glory. It has loomed big on the horizon of every Christian’s life since the early Church. it is the “blessed hope” of the Church. His coming is “at hand” because it is the greatest future event, but it may not be immediate because God must finish His plan before Christ comes.
    ..
    The false message making the rounds in Thessalonica seems to have gained a hearing also because it came from several different sources.

    Paul referred to alleged prophetic
    revelation, the teaching of other recognized authorities, and a letter Paul had supposedly written that had arrived in Thessalonica (cf. 3:17).

    Their concern was “If the day of the Lord had begun, how could Paul say the Lord’s return for his own at the Rapture would precede that day (1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9), when Paul had himself taught them that the rapture was a pretribulation event.”

    The supposed doctrinal difficulty lies in the failure to distinguish between parousia [appearing] and the day of the Lord.

    The advocates of the false teaching at
    Thessalonica conceived that the day of the Lord was not merely ‘at hand,’ which was true (Ro 13:12), but actually ‘present,’ which Paul denied, since such a view denied the believer the hope of the imminent rapture.

    The subject of verses 1-12 is “the day of the Lord” (v. 2). This day, as the Old Testament and the New Testament refer to it, includes the Tribulation, the second phase of the Second Coming, the Millennium, and the great white throne judgment (cf. Ps. 2:9; Isa. 11:1-12; 13; Joel 2; Amos 5:18; Zeph. 3:14-20; et al.).

    It is important to note that the Rapture is a church event whereas the day of the Lord is an Israel event, and the beginning of that day resumes Daniel’s seventy weeks. The seventieth week begins when the Antichrist signs a covenant with Israel allowing the Jews to return to their land (Dan. 9:27).

    While the term parousia is broad and refers to the Rapture and to many events that follow it, the term “the day of the Lord” seems more narrowly defined in Scripture and
    nowhere specifically includes the Rapture.

    “The great contrast of attitudes toward the beginning judgment phase of the Day of the Lord and the Rapture [in these verses] is another indicator that the Rapture is not the
    beginning or any part of the Day of the Lord. Rather, it will be a separate event. Therefore, Paul’s reference to the Day of the Lord in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 is not a reference to the Rapture.”

    Paul thus warns the Thessalonians, and us, against confusing the hope of Christ’s coming for His Church (phase one of the second coming or the rapture or parousia), with the day of the Lord’s judgment.

  36. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    RISE OF THE ANTICHRIST continued EXEGESIS OF 2 Thessalonians 2 1-12 part 2

    Paul tells them not to panic but hold on to what they had been taught on the issue by him, as well as what Jesus had taught in the Olivet discourse.( Matt 24, Mark 13).

    In verse 15 Paul told them to be stablished and comforted by the word and doctrine which they had been taught. Paul then reassured them beginning in verse 3 that that the day of the Lord or the tribulation ( not the rapture) had not come by teaching them that three events had to take place before the judgments of the day of the Lord could begin.

    These were
    1-the apostasy or “falling away” (v. 3),
    2- the unveiling of the man of sin or the man of lawlessness (vv. 3-4, 8), i.e the rise of antichrist
    and 3- the removal of the restraint of lawlessness (i.e the Holy Spirit) at the Rapture (vv. 6-7).

    They were to understand that the persecution which they were experiencing was not the tribulation. After all he had already taught them the comforting truths of I Thes 4:13-17; & 1Thess 5:9-10 that the church would not go through the tribulation.

    Paul then presented these in logical rather than chronological order in this passage. The word “first” refers primarily to the fact that the apostasy will occur at the very beginning of the day of the Lord, and before the revelation of the man of sin.

    One of the major events that will precede the tribulation period or the day of the Lord is the “apostasy” (v. 3, lit. the falling away). The English word “apostasy” is a transliteration of the Greek word apostasia. By definition an apostasy is a departure, an abandoning of a position formerly held (cf. Josh. 22:22 LXX; Acts 21:21).

    “In classical Greek the word apostasia denoted a political or military rebellion; but in the Greek Old Testament we find it used of rebellion against God (e.g. Jos. 22:22), and this becomes the accepted Biblical usage (following what is called the law of first mention

    By “apostasy” or “falling away” in 2 Thes 2:3 , Paul is saying that in the last times there will be an outstanding manifestation of the powers of evil arrayed against God.

    It seems that Paul referred here to a dramatic and climactic falling away from the worship of the true God (by both Jews and some portion of the professing but not genuine Christian church) as a part of the complex of events at the end of the age such as is predicted also in passages like 1 Tim. 4:1-3; 2 Tim. 4:3-4; James 5:1-8; 2 Pet. 2; 3:3-6; Jude which all warn of a departure from the faith before the Rapture.

    Such a departure had begun in Paul’s day (1 Tim. 4:1-3; 2 Tim. 4:3-4; James 5:1-8; 2 Pet. 2; 3:3-6; Jude). But it had not yet reached the proportions predicted to characterize “the apostasy” about which Paul had instructed his readers when he was with them (cf. v. 5).

    When the Rapture takes place and all true Christians leave the earth, this apostasy will overwhelm the human race.

    This worldwide anti-God movement has already begun, and will be so universal as to earn for itself a special designation: ‘the apostasy’— i.e., the climax of the increasing apostate tendencies evident before the rapture of the church. It seems to include a general
    abandonment of the basis of civil order and a large scale revolt against public order.

    Since public order is maintained by the ‘governing authorities’ who ‘have been instituted by God,’ any assault on it is an assault on a divine ordinance (Rom 13:1, 2). In fact, the whole concept of divine authority over the world that is set at defiance in ‘the
    rebellion’ par excellence, that is here denoted by the apostasy.

    There is already a great falling away from the faith as predicted by 2 Thessalonians 2 and Luke 18 in the day in which we are living. People are leaving the faith which was once delivered unto the saints (Jude 3), and denying the Lord that bought them with His own precious blood (II Peter 2:1 ), and crucifying the Lord afresh, and putting Him to shame (Heb. 6:6).

    The world acknowledges Christ to be a teacher, but not the Saviour. Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many is waxing cold. (Matt. 24:12) These are indeed perilous times, and scoffers have arisen to scoff at the idea of Christ’s coming, as predicted I 2 Peter 3:3
    .
    The falling away, or apostasia has as its root word, the meaning removal or departure. There are two kinds of removing that will take place. First the organized church will depart from the faith- they will apostasize, as is very apparent today.

    However, the total apostasy that must occur before the Lord comes at his ephiphany, will occur only after the true church is removed at the rapture.

    We know that the church will be apostate when the Lord comes, because of the tenor and tone of the rhetorical question he posed in Luke 18:8 when he asked, “When the Son of man cometh [ to the earth ] will he find [ the ] faith? That is will he find the body of truth which he left here?

    The answer is NO! He will not find the faith here when he returns because 1] the organized church or Christendom has departed from the faith – it has apostasized and 2] there has been another departure in that the true church is no longer on earth, for it has departed at the rapture.

    The rapture of the true Church then, leads to the total apostasizing of the organized church. Paul makes it very clear that the day of the Lord can not begin, nor the great tribulation occur, until the departure of the true church has taken place.

    We are now living in the time of the apostasy because a great number of churches in many countries now deny that the Bible is without error and that it is divinely inspired.

    They also deny the deity of Christ, that sin exists, that there will be a judgment, that redemption is by the blood of Christ, and many other truths of the Bible. Since we are now living in the time of the apostasy, we know that the rapture of the church could take place very soon.

    The total departure from the faith of the organized church which is left on the earth after the rapture is pictured in Revelation 17 as the great harlot.

    The Laodicean church which is the seventh and last church described in the book of Revelation is well depicted by the current period of Church History.

    The present state of the church is a sad one, but when the true church is gone, it will get even worse and end finally in total apostasy.

    Note the apostasy does not involve true born again believers. The people who Paul has in view here as apostasising are the non-genuine Christians who compose Christendom. “Christendom” refers to all professing Christians, genuine and non-genuine.

    Note also that though some folk believe that the “apostasy” is a reference to the Rapture, and find support for their view in Paul’s reference to the Rapture in verse 1, proper division of the Word indicates that nowhere else does the Scripture speak of the rapture as ‘the departure.’

    A departure denotes an act on the part of the individual or company departing. But the rapture is not an act of departure on the part of the saints. In the rapture the church is passive, not active.

    At the rapture the church is ‘caught up’ or ‘snatched away,’ an event wherein the Lord acts to transport believers from earth into His presence (1 Thess. 4:16-17). Everything that takes place with the believers at the rapture is initiated by the Lord and done by
    Him.

    Paul has just referred to the rapture as ‘our gathering together unto him’ (v. 1); why then should he now use this unlikely term “the apostasy,” to mean the same thing?

    Another major event, in addition to “the apostasy,” is the unveiling of “the
    man of lawlessness” (v. 3), or the rise of AntiChrist. This is a person yet to appear who will be completely lawless and whom God will doom to everlasting destruction.

    The prophet Daniel spoke of such a person. He will make a covenant with the Jews but then break it after three and a half years (Dan. 9:27). The breaking of that covenant seems to be the event that unmasks this individual for who he is, as the opponent of Christ.

    He will eventually seek to make everyone worship himself and will claim to be God (cf. Rev. 13:5-8). The reference to him taking his seat in the temple of God (v. 4) may be figurative representing him as taking the highest position possible. More likely it is literal in which case the material temple of God that will be rebuilt stand in Jerusalem during the second half, at least, of the Tribulation is in view (cf. Dan. 11:36). This person, the Antichrist, had not yet appeared when Paul wrote, nor has he appeared yet (cf. 1 John 2:18).

  37. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    RISE OF THE ANTICHRIST continued EXEGESIS OF 2 Thessalonians 2 1-12 part 3

    In verse 5 Paul reminded the Thessalonians that he had told them of these things when he was with them. Since Paul was seemingly only in Thessalonica for about three weeks this reference is very significant, and indicates that Paul did not regard prophecy as too deep or unimportant or controversial for even new Christians.

    Many Christians today play down the importance of this part of God’s revelation. But Paul believed prophetic truth was a vital part of the whole counsel of God essential to victorious Christian living. Consequently he taught it without hesitation or apology. So should we. So I don’t apologize for doing so!

    Paul continued his instruction concerning the events that must take place at the beginning of the day of the Lord by stressing the absolute lawlessness that will characterize that period.

    His purpose was to explain more clearly that his readers had not missed the Rapture and had not entered into the day of the Lord, since this absolute lawlessness was not yet in evidence
    .
    When he was with them Paul had apparently taught the Thessalonians that the Holy Spirit was restraining the unveiling of the man of lawlessness (i.e., Antichrist, v. 3; cf. 1 John 2:18).

    Although Paul did not restate the identity of the restrainer here in verse 5-7, the Holy Spirit is the restraining influence in view.

    The Holy Spirit accomplishes His ministry of restraining lawlessness in the world mainly through the influence of Christians whom He indwells, specifically through gospel preaching.

    One of the distinctive features of the dispensation of grace in contrast to prior periods is the fact that the Holy Spirit indwells everyone who is regenerated.

    In the coming period of the kingdom on earth this divine blessing will also be a prominent feature and everyone who is saved will be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

    There is little evidence that believers will be indwelt by the Spirit during the tribulation. The possibility of a universal indwelling of all believers in the tribulation is opposed by the revelation of 2 Thessalonians 2:7, that the one restraining the world from sin, i.e., the Holy Spirit, will be ‘taken out of the way’ during the tribulation.

    Unrestrained evil characterizes the tribulation, though the lack of restraint is not total (cf. Rev. 7:2; 12:6, 14-16).

    The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in the saints in itself would contribute to the restraint of sin, and it, therefore, is taken away.

    The tribulation period, also, seems to revert back to Old Testament conditions in several ways; and in
    the Old Testament period, saints were never permanently indwelt, although in isolated instances, instances of the filling of the Spirit and of empowerment for service are found. Taking all the factors into consideration, there is no evidence for the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in believers in the tribulation.

    The second thing which must happen, is that the man of sin, or the son of perdition or the antichrist or the “Lawless One” must be revealed. –He will be revealed before Christ appears to the world at the epiphanea.

    But not until the Lord has caught up His own at the parousia or rapture will the lawless one come into public view. (2:8) This “lawless one” is described in 2:4. He will oppose God; he has the title “Antichrist.”

    When the Holy Spirit is taken away the “Man of Sin” will open his awful campaign against the Lord. When Christ comes, He will find Antichrist ruling with all power and signs and lying wonders. It will be a time marked with strong delusions. This is Paul’s prediction of the Antichrist.

    “The sin of man has its final outcome in the Man of Sin.” Read Matthew 24:24. He will be destroyed by Christ.

    This man is most likely living today. He will deceive the world, and will even claim to be God, and will put the Roman empire back together again.

    The formation of the European common market is a good indicator that this process has started to happen and that time is running out! This is so because this grouping of nations occupy the same land area occupied by the Roman empire (the feet and toes of the image of Daniel 2).

    With respect to how close we are to the fulfillment of the events of this chapter, it is so far very clear that the escalating apostasy in Christendom and the formation of the European common market are issues which point towards the second advent of the Lord.

    Remember there are no Biblical indicators to the onset of the rapture mentioned in the first two verses of this chapter, since the scriptures make it quite clear that no one knows when this will happen.

  38. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    RISE OF THE ANTICHRIST continued EXEGESIS OF 2 Thessalonians 2 1-12 part 4

    The “mystery” (truth previously not revealed but now made known) Paul referred to in verse 7 is the revelation of a future climax of lawlessness that would follow the removal of the restrainer.

    This lawless movement was already underway in Paul’s day, but God was holding it back until His appointed time.

    God will remove the restraining influence at the Rapture when God’s restraint of evil through His people will end as He removes them from the earth. God will remove the Holy Spirit from the earth in the sense that God will remove those whom He indwells and He with them. He will not entirely abandon the earth, of course, since God is omnipresent.

    Since the removal of the Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) takes place before the manifestation of the lawless one, this identification implies a pretribulational rapture. (Not all agree with this timing) but I do.

    After the Rapture the lawless one will have greater freedom, and he will do things that will eventually result in his being identified as the Antichrist.

    However the mere breath of the Lord Jesus’ mouth will slay him when Christ comes with His saints at the second phase of the Second Coming (1:10).

    The Lord’s “appearance” in verse 10 (Gr. epiphaneia) is a different and later event in His “coming” (Gr. parousia) than the “gathering” (Gr. episynagoges) event (v. 1). The first event is the Rapture, and the second is the Second Coming.

    In verse 7 Paul teaches that the mystery of lawlessness is already in evidence- it is already working, it was so in Paul’s time. We can see that lawlessness is continuing and getting worse and worse.

    Previously inconceivable things have become common place. Yes, wickedness is already at work, but it could be worse, but the Holy Spirit at present restrains it somewhat.

    It is not worse because the Holy Spirit will not let Satan do his worse in the current period which we call the age of grace or the church period.

    However, when the Holy Spirit, the restrainer is removed it will be as if a cork, or stopper, or lid was removed from a container— the liquid of lawlessness will pour out all over the world in that day. When He is removed the wickedness incarnate in the Man of Sin will appear.

    The events of our current generation suggests that it is time for lawlessness to become rampant. It is as if the lid of the Holy Spirit is about to pop out from the bottle of the corruption of this world.

    The events of our current generation suggests too, that we are very close to the fulfillment of the events of this chapter. We can say this on the basis of the clear teaching of the word in 2Timothy 3:1-8.

    In this very important portion of scripture, Paul sounded a warning to Timothy about the times and characteristics of those living in the “last days”. We know that the “last days” began with the first coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and continue on to the present time.

    We know too that this period of time will end at the second coming of the Lord, and that God will complete his purpose for his people during this time. Paul predicted that in the “last days” there would be “terrible times” as the age draws to a close and that the days would become more dangerous and savage.

    These characteristics began to appear during Paul’s day and have continued to increase. It appears that evil is stronger and more accepted in all societies. It is not in one place, or country but all societies all over the world are affected.

    The characteristics which Paul describes in 2 Timothy 3:1-8 are prevalent all over the world in people in all walks of life-without exception , and regardless to colour, class or, creed because of the moral collapse of mankind..

    Here are the characteristics of man in these last days listed in 2 Timothy 3verses 2–5: People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God—having a form of godliness but denying its power.

    Notice the word love at the beginning of verse two and love at the end of verse four. It is not a love for God. It is not a love for family. It is not a love for neighbor. It is a love for self and his own pleasure. When this is true all the characteristics in between fall into place.

    These may be categorized as: A person who loves himself will be boastful, proud, abusive, ungrateful, conceited, without self-control, lover of money. In regard to family he is disobedient to parents, without love, unforgiving.

    In regard to his neighbor he is brutal, treacherous, rash, not a lover of good . In regard to God he is ungrateful, unholy, loves pleasure rather than God, has a form of godliness but denies its power.

    The characteristics listed in this passage are the exact ones which are prevalent today in the world and increasingly so; and more so than at any time previously.

    This behavior makes it very easy to conclude that we are now very close to the fulfillment of the events of this chapter. The tendency to scoff at the idea of the second coming and scriptural truths and for men to follow their own evil desires as predicted in 2 Pet 3:3 , is also cause for concern.

    God’s command to love is found in Matthew 22:37-40, Jesus replied: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hand on these two commandments.” Man has turned away from that command. It is interesting that this is not something new but that it was from the beginning.

    Paul writes in Romans 1:29-31, “Furthermore, since they did not think it worth while to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.” The list is very similar.” .

    These are other passages which describe accurately the behaviour of the people of our times which cause us to be sure that that we are now very close to the fulfillment of the events of this chapter.

    In addition, the increasing prevalence of false teachers (among so-called religious leaders who have a form of godliness but deny its power, and who both they twist and resist the truth of God’s Word, and who prey on the weak ; especially weak willed women whom they deceive just as Satan deceived Eve) make as sure that we are now very close to the fulfillment of the events of this chapter.

    “It is plain to see that during “the last days” dangerous times will arise. It is not only evident in the world but it is evident in the church. Yes, inside the church, the body of those who profess to be believers, there are men of immoral character and conduct. They are outwardly religious. They are lovers of self rather than God. They are morally, religiously and intellectually perverse.

    It seems hard to believe that there could be a moving away from the biblical standards of truth and righteousness but this has crept into the church.” The scriptures so adequately describes our times that it makes us confident that the end of the age is imminent.

  39. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    RISE OF THE ANTICHRIST continued EXEGESIS OF 2 Thessalonians 2 1-12 part 5

    Verses 9-10 indicates that Antichrist or The lawless one will be Satan’s instrument. Satan will empower him to deceive many people into thinking he is God by doing awe-inspiring, powerful miracles (cf. Rev. 13:2-4; 17:8). Scripture also calls him the beast coming out of the sea (Rev. 13:1-10), the scarlet beast (Rev. 17:3), and simply the beast (Rev. 17:8, 16; 19:19-20; 20:10).

    In this verse Paul uses the word parousia here in verse 8 for the revelation or coming of Antichrist as a parody of Christ’s Parousia. Here he is sort of mocking the Antichrist who as a counterfeit Christ has an “advent” or revelation also as he seeks to mimic Christ!

    Satan’s power, signs, wonders, and evil deception (vv. 9-10) will impress all people living on the earth during the Tribulation. Paul could say that those people do not receive “the love of the truth so as to be saved” (v. 10) and they “did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness” (v. 12).

    He could do so since these phrases describe all unbelievers, not just those who hear the gospel and willfully rejected it before the Rapture (cf. John 3:19, Rom. 1:24-32).

    By ‘the lie [or “what is false”]’ is apparently meant the denial of the fundamental truth that God is God; it is the rejection of his self-revelation as Creator and Savior, righteous and merciful Judge of all, which leads to the worship due to him alone being offered to another, such as the ‘man of lawlessness.

    It is a solemn but true thought that when men begin by rejecting the good they inevitably end by forwarding and following evil.

    After the rapture, when the Holy Spirit departs with the true church, there will be nothing left to hold back the wickedness of men. Then there will be an awful revelation of the real sin in the world, when there is no hindering by good men and women. Then the sin of man will appear in the Man of Sin, or “that wicked one” whom we call the Antichrist. His coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. (2:8,9) He will perform deceiving miracles. He will delude those who have never received Christ or loved the truth. ( 2:11)

    The Man of Sin is the same as the Antichrist spoken of by Daniel the prophet, and by the Lord in Matthew 24:23,24. In Revelation 13:1 John tells about him also.

    The Antichrist is a counterfeit Christ. Satan in a last desperate effort will try to imitate Christ. The world would not have God’s Man; now they must have Satan’s man. He will have supernatural powers; perhaps he will be quite a healer and miracle worker.

    Already in our day and in religious circles we see people who are very interested in signs and lying wonders and those who perform them.

    The world is in my view being subtly prepared for accepting antichrist’s lying wonders by watching certain religious jokers on television networks which pretend to be dedicated to the spread of the gospel.

    We ought always to be afraid of miracle workers and miracle healers because the next miracle worker predicted by the Bible is the one who is under Satan’s influence…

    The fact that they are a lot of these spurious workers around who are successfully drawing men to themselves rather than to the Lord indicates that the conditions are already being prepared for the delusion discussed in verse 11.

    Some interpreters have concluded from these verses 11-12) that no one who has heard the gospel and rejected it before the Rapture will be able to be saved during the Tribulation.

    This view rests on taking the antecedents of “them” and “they” as being “those who perish” (v. 10) and interpreting “those who perish” as those who heard but rejected
    the gospel before the Rapture. However it seems more likely that verse 10 describes all unbelievers in the Tribulation, not just those who heard and rejected the gospel before the Rapture.

    Scriptures such as Rev. 6:9-11; 7:4, 9-17; et al, suggest that thousands of people will place their faith in Jesus Christ during the Tribulation, even though this will only be a small proportion of the entire population.

    One might reasonably ask “If Paul wanted to correct the Thessalonians’ erroneous conclusion that they were in the day of the Lord, why did he not just tell them that the Rapture had not yet taken place?

    Actually Paul did tell them that the Rapture had not yet taken place by reemphasize the order of events that must occur before this event occurs, while simultaneously stressing the rise of the Antichrist, and the culmination and destruction of lawlessness in the world

    Paul’s readers could, therefore, now be confident that the day of the Lord had not yet begun, and that the trials or tribulations that they were experiencing were not at all those of the day of the Lord about which Paul had taught them while he was with them.

    They could be absolutely sure of this, because the three prerequisite events he stressed in this chapter had not yet taken place, namely in chronological order
    1-the apostasy (v. 3),
    2- the removal of the restraint of lawlessness at the Rapture (vv. 6-7), and .
    3- the unveiling of the man of lawlessness (vv. 3-4, 8), or the rise of antichrist

  40. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    RISE OF THE ANTICHRIST continued EXEGESIS OF 2 Thessalonians 2 1-12 part 6

    Having discussed the issue from the word, we can now give an opinion of the obvious and prevailing signs in our times that suggest that the current era may be the start of the “end”.

    Signs in our times that this may be the start of the “end” include the prevalence of devil worship, belief in United Nations and the concept of world wide peace as issues that will solve the problems of the world.

    The rapid upsurgence of universal things like globalization, credit cards, computerization of all information systems, bar coding, universal acceptance of certain major currencies etc.

    All of these systems were/ are subtly designed by the prince of this world to facilitate the coming of the lawless one. Whereas they are generally accepted, only discerning believers seem to appreciate the truth about them.

    It is not hard to see how the antichrist can control who can buy or sell by having a computerized data base about the world’s citizens. The importance of one currency and globalization of trade is an obvious precursor to a one man government.

    All ready all bar codes have the number 666 within them. It is not hard to see that one will need a credit card to buy and sell, and that such a card will be issued by a universal central bank controlled by the political dictator of the world the antichrist.

    It is not unreasonable to conceive that whereas those who bear the mark of the beast 666 on their foreheads will have in this mark a bar code that will be a fool proof identification of the person, in terms of their sex, colour, creed, height, age, and what ever parameters that may be chosen, in much the same way that to transact any business in the U SA, one’s social security number with its coded information is a must.

    This system is not being copied by many of the nations of the world willy nilly. All of these systems and programs are being designed and will be used along will all the modern tele- communication systems currently in vogue ( and those not yet released to the general public) to effect the aims and purposes of the devil. The frightening thing is that only a few people are aware of what is happening, or even care. .

    0ne of the ancient counterfeits and one that will be a key note of his last day satanic strategies (a strategy already prominent today) is the belief in one world government which will be portrayed as a utopia and the final hope for mankind. The foundations for such a government is now firmly entrenched with the embracing of globalization.

    Any and every one of the divine institutions is being attacked—as predicted in 1 Tim 4:3 we are being told not to marry and to abstain from meat ( i.e be vegetarian). But we were told by God to marry in Genesis 2 and to eat meat in Genesis 9.

    God created the confusion of the tongues in Genesis 11 to discourage a one world government. One world government has as its basis a non dependence on God and a seeking on man’s part to solve his problems apart from God.

    Speaking in tongues in church is stoutly defended by believers so called, and miracle men are not seen as devilish but of God, especially when the purveyors are clearly not Godly.

    In Genesis 11, God instituted nationalism, today man stresses internationalism. We were taught tongues were a sign for a period and specific purpose. Today glossolalia is prominent. For ages women kept quiet in church, today women predominate and preside in churches here there and everywhere.

    The Bible teaches capital punishment, today man advocates social rehabilitation. Divorce and re marriage is every where commonplace, and homosexuals are marrying each other.

    When the “church” is asked for an answer, the true church is either silent or not influential enough and the false church is definitely not sanctified to give the correct answer, because it really has not the “hope” that Peter talks about or the “faith” for which Jude declares we are to contend.

    When Christ returns at the ephiphanea or glorious appearing (verse 8; Titus 2:13), He will find Antichrist (the Man of Sin) carrying out his satanic plans.

    From the description of the Man of Sin in the Scriptures and his diabolical role of mighty works and lying wonders, we can see that though he has not been revealed, it will be just as the Bible says it would be.

    Indeed, the darkest clouds that are gathering are but harbingers of the golden day that is surely coming, when our Lord Himself shall return to take up the reins of government.

    IT IS DEFINITELY TIME TO LOOK FOR THE UPPER-TAKER!!

    In addressing the issue of how close we are to the fulfillment of the events spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2 , we must first list and briefly discuss these events (as we have done) and state the scriptures that gave us indicators or parameters by which we may judge the onset of these and related events. Then we can confidently say that we are extremely close to the fulfillment of the events of this chapter.

  41. Hog Squeal Avatar
    Hog Squeal

    What needs to be done – is written on the wall in capital letters, yet a weak Prime Minister David Thompson calls old men – who are not well – out of retirement from active politics – to help him run the country.

    A serious confession for Mr. Thompson to make – that old man who are not well and have retired from active politics – are times more competent and intellectually sharp, than David Thompson is.

    O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason.

  42. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    JJ, If you are in fact a SDA, believing that the SDA church is God’s last-day, true church, or “the remnant church” based primarily on two passages in the book of Revelation, as follows:

    “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the ‘rest’ of her offspring, who keep the ‘commandments of God’ and hold to the ‘testimony of Jesus’ (Rev. 12:17).

    And;

    “And I fell at his feet to worship him…And he said to me, ‘Do not do that; I am a fellow-servant of yours and your brethren who hold ‘the testominy of Jesus’; worship God…For ‘the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophesy” (Rev. 19:10) emphasis added.

    JJ, what exactly does “Commandments of God” mean here in this context; and, secondly, what does ‘the testimony of Jesus and the spirit of prophesy’ mean?

  43. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    I don’t know which part of the globe that JJ lives, but as I write, I am listening to calls into CNN news calling for attachment of GPS units or micro chips to little children to prevent them from being kidnapped, as there have been an increasing number of kidnapping of little children.

    It seems that the technology WILL be applied for simple mundane uses of this kind prior to the Beast’s arrival, because it is happening even now in animals, and it is being called for even today.

  44. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    @GP…..Do you have a credit card/s?

    Education Czarist, (hahaha)! You really want me to turn little Barbados right side up? Rest assured that I will ensure that every little black girl and boy know that they preceded christianity and that Alexander the ‘Great’ was a marauding, murdering, sadistic brute who played an integral part in the decimation of their Ancestors. And I will also let them know that those who call themselves God’s chosen are NOT. They should not worship them, nor pay homage to them like the christians of today do.They are the enemy of humanity and be very WARY of them. (Just disqualified myself).

    Those calls that you were listening to @CNN were calls from the makers of GPS/microchips, those with stock in GPS/microchips, and those who are working for those who want total control. That’s how they get to control ‘US’ through fear!

  45. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Hopi
    Re GP…..Do you have a credit card/s?
    Yes. I was one of the first in line in1994 when Mutual Bank started in Barbados. I have several, from both local banks, US banks and two from good old Barclays UK.

    Yes Hopi, we have you down for Minister of female affairs & Education about African culture and Black Education

    Re You really want me to turn little Barbados right side up?

    Yes if that is the right thing to do. LOL

    Be careful with all the rest of stuff you put down here, cause we making Zoe Minister responsible for Prisons Police, The Defence Force and the Fire Brigade. So behave your self! Cause he will be ruling with an iron fist!…and his usual no nonsense approach.So behave your self chile!

    Re Those calls that you were listening to @CNN were calls from the makers of GPS/microchips, those with stock in GPS/microchips, and those who are working for those who want total control. That’s how they get to control ‘US’ through fear!

    You are probably correct there Hopi.. But the point is still made that these folk plan to have the nation(s) hook up to these things within the next 10 years ( and in time for the Rise of the AntiChrist and the Mark of the Beast)

  46. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Dead Sea Scrolls.

    The designation popularly given to manuscripts discovered since 1947 in the area west of the Dead Sea.

    The most important manuscripts are those found in eleven caves overlooking the Waidi Qumran, apparently the remnants of the library of a religious community which had its headquarters at Khirbet Qumran between ca. 145 B.C. and A.D. 68 ( with a break of thirty years ca. 34-4 B.C).

    The Qumran library , of which over four hundred documents have been identified, most in very fragmentary condition, included biblical and nonbiblical texts. About a hundred out of the four hundred are biblical text. All the Old Testament books except Ester are represented, some of them several times over. These biblical manuscripts date from the closing centuries B.C. and the first century A.D. They attest at least three distinct textual traditions of Hebrew Scripture, not only the text (preserved Babylonia) which underlies the later Massoretic recension, but also the text (of Egyptian provenance) underlying the Septuagint and a text (native Palestine) akin to the Samaritan Pentateuch. The discovery of these manuscripts has reduced the gap separating the autographs from the oldest extant copies by about a thousand years, and is of great importance for the textual history of the OT. In addition to copies of the type of Hebrew text used by the Septuagint translators, pieces of their actual Greek translation have also been identified.

  47. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Thanks Zoe,

    Can you possibly expand on the significance of the finding of the scrolls, and thier role in establishing the authenticity of the OT and its contibution to Canonicity?

  48. JJ Avatar
    JJ

    Dear Zoe and Georgie Porgie,

    Good to see you both busy with the replies. Please bear with me as I defend my position. I’m not the world’s fastest typer!

    Georgie Porgie, you wrote…

    QUOTE: “On the basis of Paul’s teaching that the saints are not subject to God’s wrath, they must be in heaven before the judgements start.”

    You are automatically assuming that since the saints are not subject to God’s wrath, they must be in heaven. Let me show you your error.

    Daniel 12:1 “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.”

    Jeremiah 30:7 “Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.”

    Jesus promises to “keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” (Rev 3:10) He also promised to be “with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Matt 28:20)

    Truth is, spiritual Israel WILL BE PRESENT on earth when the four winds are being loosed. They will be sealed so they are not hurt BUT that doesn’t mean they’ll not be there! The passage above says we are saved OUT of the “time of Jacob’s trouble,” not FROM it! Even Christ asked His Father when he was in prayer in John 17 that we should NOT be “taken from the world” but kept “from the evil” in it (see John 17:15).

    Was not the Seed of Abraham present during the 10 plagues in Egypt when Pharaoh was ignoring the warnings of God through Moses???

    The Israelites were spared because they were believers! But they were very much present when the plagues fell! Are we any different today?

    Just as the Lord spared the Old Testament Hebrews by causing the destroying angel to “pass over” the houses of the believers so the plague would not harm them, He also plans to spare us!

    Exodus 12:13 “And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.”

    Romans 5:9, “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”

    Psalms 91:10, “There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.”

    The Lord protected His own in the Old Testament by the blood of the lamb sacrifice, and He promises to protect us New Testament believers by the “…the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” (John 1:29) Both sets of believers show their faith by the blood of Christ, do they not? The Old Testament believers trusted God by a show of faith by placing the blood of a lamb upon the doorposts of their houses, we have the Blood of the Lamb upon the doorposts of the heart. Also notice that in Psalms 91:10 it specifically states no plague will come near our dwellings. If we are supposed to have been raptured up before the plagues hit, why is the Word so plainly stating it doesn’t come near our dwellings?

    The obedient true child of God is indeed NOT subject to the wrath of God! So WHO IS the subject of God’s wrath?

    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

    Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God

    Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of DISOBEDIENCE.

    Col 3:6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of DISOBEDIENCE:

    If we are not present during all the time of trouble, please explain these verses:

    Psa.27.5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.

    Psa.37.39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.

    Matt.10.17-22 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

    Matt 24:9-14 “Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
    Matt.24.22-27 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Luke 21:28 When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh..

    John.16.33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

    Acts.14.22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

    2 Thes 2:9 “Even him, whose coming is AFTER the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,”

    Rev.1.7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen

    Rev.7.14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

  49. JJ Avatar
    JJ

    Again Geogie Porgie, you wrote…

    QUOTE: “Now I know that some folk differ with respect to WHEN the saints are raptured, and some believe that there is no rapture at all!
    You state that the saints go to heaven AT THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST, and not before but you seem not to know, or understand or believe that the second coming involves two phases, as the Scriptures clearly teach.. In one phase (the rapture or parousia) the Lord meets the saints in the air in a secret coming; in the second phase ( the epiphanea or glorious appearing) he comes down to earth to win the battle of Armageddon, and every eye shall see Him.
    You state that In terms of Revelation, this ascent of the saints is placed whenever the second coming is spoken about. This is found throughout the book. A specific reference would be Revelation 11:12. My friend you have left out the details man. Note that the second phase of the second coming is well described throughout the OT. The first phase or rapture or parousia is referred to by Paul in I Cor 15 as a MYSTERY. That is it is a truth that had never before revealed in the Bible.
    You need to forget your denominational dogma, and with an open mind read the Bible (perhaps with the help of a Systematic Theology where all the Scriptures on the doctrine are extracted and laid bare) and find ALL the references to the parousia as set out in the NT. You will find that you might learn a lot. I found that I learned many things and re- learned many things when I read the Word for myself or good commentaries that set out the various positions on a controversial issue, and discusses them in the light of all the relevant scriptures! TRY IT SOMETIME.”

    Funny you tell me to forget my “denominational dogma.” Why? Because I grew up believing what you believe but after searching the Scriptures and the pages of history, I’ve come to realize that your position and my former views were incorrect. There is not a single person where I live who believes in the truths I advocate. My beliefs do not stem from any form of denominational indoctrination. But what’s really interesting is that your belief is very prevalent among many Protestant churches today! I don’t know your past circumstances, but I know that certainly the trend is strong among many present day scholars and ministers and lay students of the Word, that a pre-trib rapture / futurism end time scenario must be true. Where does such a trend come from?

    Have a little look at history, starting with the Protestant Reformation. I won’t give you any detailed references here because of time and space, but they aren’t difficult to obtain. Go to any library or read any history book. Here’s the relevant summary:

    – There are two great truths that stand out in the preaching that brought about the Protestant Reformation – The just shall live by faith, not by the works AND that the Papacy / Roman Catholic church power is the Antichrist of Scripture. It was a message for Christ and against Antichrist. The entire Reformation rests upon this twofold testimony. (Note: there are now various lines of thinking within this interpretation but they can all be categorized under the term HISTORICISM – the belief that the Biblical prophecies about the little horn, the man of sin, the antichrist, the Beast and the Babylonian Harlot of Rev 17, all apply to the developing history of Christianity culminating at the end of time. This system of belief sees the prophecies as having a direct application to Papal Rome AS A SYSTEM whose doctrines are counter those set forth by the Scriptures.)
    – The Catholic church persecuted these reformers by labelling them as heretics to be cursed and imprisoned and tortured and killed.
    – But as the Scriptural truths become more and more widely available, the Catholic church realized she needed another plan in holding non-conformists in check. The result: the Counter-reformation.
    – 1545 – Council of Trent. The Catholic church commissioned Jesuit priests to come up with counter-interpretations of the prophetic portions of Scriptures.
    – Two Jesuits especially surfaced with the most believable alternative interpretations resulting in two major classes of eschatologies.
    – One school of interpretation came from Jesuit Luis De Alcazar. He put forth the view that the majority of the prophecies have already been fulfilled and have no significance for the future. Nero is identified as the antichrist. There are various lines of thinking within this interpretation but they can all be categorized under the term PRETERISM.
    – But the one we’re interested in is the other theory devised by Jesuit Priest Francisco Ribera who applied all the prophecies to the end of time and applied the antichrist to a single individual. History records that Italian Cardinal Robert Bellarmine then further published Ribera’s interpretation. Then, Dr Samuel Maitland and John Newman of the Chuch of England followed by Presbyterian minister Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby who established the Plymouth Brethren all one by one adopted this theory. Then Scofield latched onto it as well and placed it in the margins of his Scofield Reference Bible. The Moody Bible Institute and the Dallas Theological Seminary then followed suite. Hal Lindsey graduated from the latter. Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins then produced their ‘Left Behind’ saga. Once again, there are various lines of thinking within this interpretation but they can all be categorized under the term FUTURISM. Fact remains though – this ‘futurist’ school of Bible prophecy was originally created for one reason, and one reason only – to COUNTER THE PROTESTANT REFORMATION! It is this school of interpretation that you, my friend, along with millions of protestants today have fallen for.

    I’m not spewing some kind of denominational theory! This is HISTORY. The history and source of your belief and the history and source of mine. The different ideas we’re BOTH bringing forth on this blog are not new. They have definite ORIGINS. And they have been proclaimed for ages past. Now you know the story of where exactly they come from. See for yourself if this is not true!

  50. JJ Avatar
    JJ

    QUOTE: “I look forward to your opinion or denominational dogma.
    As I discerned it is clear that you don’t believe in the rapture. I assure you that the literal tons of verses and passages that demonstrate this to be a farce, ought to be hilarious spouting of denominational dogma.”

    You can label anything you like as ‘denominational dogma.’ And so can I. It’s like a game that goes around in circles. So if you’re happy, then let’s study some of this ‘denominational dogma’. . .

    RAPTURE DECEPTION – PROOF #1

    2 Pet 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

    Here we see the Word of God declaring the day of the Lord will not only come unexpectedly, it will come with a GREAT NOISE! Does that sound like a secret? How is it possible to hide the fact that the earth, it’s elements, and all the “works” of man upon the earth are burned up on that day? Even if millions of Christians vanish into thin air as some preach, the convulsing and burning planet as well as the great noise all this is going to make will no doubt enlighten the wicked that something out of this world is happening, wouldn’t you think? How do you destroy the earth and all it’s cities without the wicked knowing it?

    Right in context with the above verse is the following…

    2 Pet 3:11-14 “Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.”

    This passage places our Lord’s arrival and the Earth’s destruction at the exact same time. Plus, we see that we are to be “Looking for” the day of God as well! We are not looking for an initial secret parousia followed by a great glorious epiphanea. There is no dividing of events, no two phases. It is all ONE day! One event!

The blogmaster invites you to join the discussion.

Trending

Discover more from Barbados Underground

Subscribe now to keep reading and get access to the full archive.

Continue reading