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The Obama Deception Video, Deceiver Or Saviour?

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Not since the days of the Gladston Holder columns in the Barbados media have Barbadians been kept abreast of the occurrences which involve the Council for Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission or even the Bilderberg family influence on world politics. Barbadians, including the media appear to be very comfortable ferreting world news from CNN and the BBC.

BU like millions around the world have been enthralled by the new entrant to the White House. President Barack Obama is without question a departure from the old guard. Some say any perceive change should only be taken as token. Many of the appointments in the Obama government represent prominent individuals who have worked in Washington in the recent past and are regarded as part of the status quo. For example, there is the influential position of Secretary of the Treasury Tim Geithner, the former head of the Federal Reserve of New York. How can Geithner be responsible for changing Wall Street when he is a product of the system?

The video above is one hour and 53 minutes long and paints an intriguing picture of Obama and the shadow government which runs the US government. While BU is inclined to ask questions we are not sure we fully buy in to the positions expressed in the video.

What do you think?

Thanks to BU family member Hopi!

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725 responses to “The Obama Deception Video, Deceiver Or Saviour?”

  1. Avatar
    Anonymous

    @ Zoe……

    Rok, you and your Anti-God, Anti-Christ, Anti-Scriptural cohorts, DO NOT have the spiritual life in you, that is required to objectively and coherently analysize any Truth relative to God’s Word,

    Since when is the spiritual life required first……I thought that it came after careful objective analysis in seeking the truth.

    Zoe/Carlos…..you are frothing at the mouth like a rabid dog trying to get a point across and ending up with your cart before the horse.

  2. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    @ Rok
    You are apparently very knowledgeable about the Council of Nicea. I am not.

    I asked you a very simple question. Are any of the clauses of the Nicene Creed unscriptural. Are there any of the clauses of the Nicene Creed that can not be backed by Scripture? That is all.

    I am not trying to say a thing, or catching at any thing. Or arguing either. All I asked is for you to say if there are any of the clauses of the Nicene Creed opposed to any doctrine of the Scriptures. That is all.

  3. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    David, the Bishops at Nicea, were dealing with serious heresies that were creating much confusion in certain regions of the empire; yes, as is always expected, some no doubt, were influenced by the ‘politics’ of the day; BUT, don’t forget that they were dealing with Scriptural matters that are the very CORE of historic, Apostolic Christianity, not some ‘political’ secular issue.

    I have to keep stressing this point, over and over again, and IT is this, while the Bishops were deliberating the ISSUE of Arianism, the heresy which taught that Christ was a created being, there SOURCE of reference to counter this false doctrine WAS the writings of the Apostles from the FIRST century, CONFIRMED by Ignatius, Polycarp, and Clement of Rome, between A.D 95-115, 200 hundred years before the Council of Nicea, therefore the utter falsity that Constantine wrote some new Bible, to support the conclusions of the Bishops, is utter nonsense; as the early FIRST century New Testament documents, ARE overwhelmingly confirmed by the citations as given by Ignatius, Polycarp, and Clement of Rome, just around the corner from the close of the first century, and ARE STILL preserved today.

    Therefore, the attack on the veracity of the outcome of the Council of Nicea, is not only a vicious LIE, to descredit the historic, Apostolic doctrine of the Deity of Christ, but it is also illogical given the FACTS of the alreading existings books of the New Testament era, which were already used, read, and accepted as the Word of God, confirmed by Ignatius, Polycarp, and Clement of Rome, Circa A.D. 95-115, and which were obviously used widely through the regions of the empire, by hundreds and hundreds of Bishops and their respective churhes, long before the Constantine era, confirmed by the very Bible used during and after the Council of Nicea, and right up to this very day, all of which still have the very books and chapters, identifying the very doctrine of the Deity of Christ, that was confirmed by Nicea.

  4. JC Avatar
    JC

    Likewise, Leftist radicals like Hopi et al, would naturally love and hail totalitarian ideologies, from Marxism to radical Islam; as history shows, these leftist beliefs have spawned mass carnage and misery.

    ________________________

    Just happened to be browsing but Zoe r u Carlos?

    And I thought your God was suppose to love all men therefore teaching you to have patience with us heathens …… why are you being so arrogant and condescending?

    I love history and history has taught me that Christianity has the world more corrupt than ever. GP you know I respect you but only a few are like you the majority are like Zoe/Carlos ……

  5. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    Zoe……You too, like Constantine and that Nicean Council would call Arius a heretic because he was Black and had the balls to stand up to that Killer. He knew that Jesus and the Father could not have been the same that it was a big LIE. That’s why they all went against him, except for one other bishop. Hence you get this conspiratorial doctrine you practise today. How can the Father, Son and Holy Ghost be One? Does that make any sense? Are you and your father the same?

    Another thing Zoe, It was the Society for the Propagation of the Gospels in Foreign Lands that forced this nonsense on Afrikans and this was backed up by military might. So Blacks were terrorized by Christian invaders at the behest of the Church of England.

  6. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP,

    You obviously did not understand me clearly so let me be a little more explanatory. From a scientific approach, one cannot go wrong by saying that every lie or untruth cannot be scriptural. From this point of view, yes there is a lot of scriptures which were concocted, to either fill in blanks or reduce inconsistencies in the story.

    Furthermore, every piece of purported scripture that was selected or inserted into the creed for political bias is also unscriptural.

    Third, ommissions to avoid contradictions or remove knowledge or information to avoid conflicting theologies makes the Creed also unscriptural.

    Finally, anything interjected such as a new custom, practice or law… but it is interesting to note that much of these have now become “scripturally” adopted that were not scriptural at the time of insertion.

    Therefore, the designation of Christ as a saviour is unscriptural since by parallel accounts of that period, the name Christ was titular and not the name of a man. The designation of Pagan holidays to be replaced as Christian holidays was also unscriptural.

    This is only the surface. I tell you, if so much could be wrong about this book you calling the Bible which was originally called Book of the Sun Worshippers, what makes you think that anything is right about it?

  7. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Anonymous,

    You know a lot about me so let me tell you about them. There is nothing objective about those who purport to be the seers of Christianity. If you could show me one objective analysis from them I would gladly be objective. Show me one parallel account that provides even the most basic and feint link to verify anything about the Bible stories? The only evidence that could corroborate anything about the Bible came long before the Bible. The stories existed long before the Bible or even Adam. So what is this foolishness then, except a means of deception?

    You like you in the same trap too talking about spirit come first and has to be found. Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Skipper, the only thing you can find after birth is consciousness and some good common sense. The spirit is in the equation possibly at formation in the womb.

    Finally, I would like you to be careful because you have not heard me on anti-god or even anti-christ. Tells me something about your objectivity too.

    As soon as you don’t say what you fellas want to hear, you are anti-this or that; ignorant; empty; in darkness, etc. when in truth and in fact it is the Christians that are in darkness.

    It is so funny how we project our weaknesses on others and Christians are famous for doing it. It is all emotion and not based on any facts and there is no abundance of spiritual truths; just one large fairy tale. How can one be objective? All their analyses above are baseless, untrue and a wicked falsification of what prevailed, designed only to enslave mankind like cattle, until the day of their slaughter.

  8. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    JC
    There is nothing about Zoe that is different from Carlos. It is blaring. Watch for the denials.

  9. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Rok
    Here is the TRADITIONAL WORDING of the NICENE CREED

    Are any of these clauses NOT supported by the teachings of the Bible?

    I believe in one God,
    the Father Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    and of all things visible and invisible;

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
    the only begotten Son of God,
    begotten of his Father before all worlds,
    God of God, Light of Light,
    very God of very God,
    begotten, not made,
    being of one substance with the Father;
    by whom all things were made;
    who for us men and for our salvation
    came down from heaven,
    and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
    of the Virgin Mary,
    and was made man;
    and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
    he suffered and was buried;
    and the third day he rose again
    according to the Scriptures,
    and ascended into heaven,
    and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
    and he shall come again, with glory,
    to judge both the quick and the dead;
    whose kingdom shall have no end.

    And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Live,
    who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
    who with the Father and the Son together
    is worshipped and glorified;
    who spake by the Prophets.
    And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
    I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
    and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

  10. Ruel Daniels Avatar
    Ruel Daniels

    The peoples of Africa, the Americas, Asia and Oceania were blithely practicing some other religion. Why did God apparently ignore these people for so long?
    ……………………………………………………

    Reverend even your biblical history renders this comment assinine. Solomon was an Ethiopian. Christianity was in Ethiopia thousands of years before Constantine had his Epiphany. The Ethiopians were Christians when the Greeks were still worshiping Zeus, Odin, and whole heap of other pagan Gods. The Ethiopians were Christians when the Isand of the UK was populated by Barbarians worshipping at Stonehenge. It is palpably ludiscrous to advance the insipid notion that at a time when Jet Planes steamships had not yet been invented Christianity was able to leap over the continent of its origin to land in Europe. That ridiculous Europeon Judeo – Christian mythology was created to erase the genesis of human life and faith in the land of Kemet, and replant it in Europe.

    That is why the notion of black people finding God in the temples where such notions and precepts are circulated is an example of their enslaved minds. Imagine worshipping in a temple presided over by those who refuse to accept your humanity.

  11. Ruel Daniels Avatar
    Ruel Daniels

    David, your obvious sincere question to glean some understanding of Constantine and Christianity and the part he played vis-a-vis the ‘church’ is very important, and yes, the adoption of dogma.

    Volumes and volumes of Church history are all there, covering from the Apostolic era, right through to the 19th century. It is a life time endeavor in itself, to become familar with.
    ###########################

    Pardon Moi, but it is at best disingenous to cite Europeon version of Christian history as an authority in any debate on what is what, and when was when. Pray tell, if the history that you cite does not explain the lineage of Solomon, but recognizes him as black in a human ocean of whites, from whence springs its credibility.

    And to the person who alleges that the majority of Christian dominations do not portray Jesus as black or white, from which planet are you advancing this notion. All of the major Christian denominations have images of Christ as a blonde hair blue eyed Europeoid individual. All of the major Christian denominatians have embraced a European artist concept of what Christ looked like. About the only time they find such imaging idolatory is when someone musters the courage to image him as bronze with locks the texture of wool.

    David we cannot debate Christianity from the precept handed down to us by the slave masters. That is what is so ludicrous in this entire debate. People are arguing that those who placed chains around the necks of our ancestors, ascribed them as less than human, and brought them across the Atlantic to slave as beasts of burdens, were still honest and objective enough to present a view of Christianity that was immune from the bias, hate and prejudice that subscribed to their treatment of our ancestors. I tell you my friend, I have to commend them. They sure did a good job. When the mongoose is able to convince the chicken that its predatory alimentary choices does not impair its capacity to define the relationship between itself and its prey, then the mongoose has done a hell of a job.

    You know they say that the whiteman was convinced that the proof of the slave knowing its place was not when it simply entered buildings through the back doors. No no. The manifestation of the slave knowing its place occurred when that slave came to a building with no back door, and immediately carves one out in order to enter the building. And that is the summary of much of what is being written here presently in the debate about Christianity.

  12. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Bro. Daniels!
    “Reverend even your biblical history renders this comment assinine. Solomon was an Ethiopian. Christianity was in Ethiopia thousands of years before Constantine had his Epiphany.”

    I would have been impossible for Christianity to be in Ethiopia thousands of years before Constantine. If we mark the beginning of the era at 1 a.d., then Constantine was only 325 a.d.

    Maybe you meant to say something else?

  13. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    I suspect Georgie will be finding this thread “hilarious” again.

  14. David Avatar
    David

    We here that the N.Korea has been able to get off their rocket despite what President warned. What can Obama do? We believe nothing! The Chinese want a world reserve currency and Germany and France tell Obama at the recent G20 Summit go to hell regarding introducing stimulus packages and providing troops in Afghanistan fight. What is Obama to do? The sharks sniff that the USA is bleeding?

  15. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Not Saved
    Re I suspect Georgie will be finding this thread “hilarious” again.

    It seems that you outside my window listening in at me laughing.LOL

  16. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    @ David…

    I also read that he (Obama) is looking to cut back on nuclear weapons buildup. Will he pass this message on to his closest Mid-East ally, Israel, who refuses to join any treaties or have any inspections??
    Why all the fuss about North Korea when they are many ‘rogue’ nations with ICBM capabilities, who dont even see eye to eye with the US?
    Right now it is anyone’s guess as to who controls Russia’s nuclear arsenal.

  17. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    BaRAt just stands there and bark when he has a prompter. He ain’t cutting back on any nuclear weapons buildup. That’s just comfort for the foolish public. Putin controls Russia’s nuclear arsenal.

  18. Rev Dr. Dick Hertz Avatar
    Rev Dr. Dick Hertz

    @Ruel Daniels

    Try again but take your time and think this time. Hint: my comment was initially addressed to Zoe.

  19. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    @ Rev Dr. Dick Hertz

    Nobama has mastered the art of making others believe he is good at thinking on his feet. Isn’t that a form of lying?

  20. Rev Dr. Dick Hertz Avatar
    Rev Dr. Dick Hertz

    BAFBFP

    …well one could “think on one’s feet” and still be truthful but Obama doesn’t seem to do well when there is no prepared script.

    Obama said he wants a world without nuclear weapons but he doesn’t think it will happen in his lifetime. Further he doesn’t plan to get rid of America’s arsenal and he supports the missile shield in Eastern Europe. The amazing thing is that thousands of presumably educated and mentally competent people listened to this drivel and cheered.

    One minute the world is in the worst recession since 1930’s, next minute it’s going to be over by next year! He being credited with getting the US out of Iraq (even though the original timetable established under Bush is still being followed) yet no criticism over his plans to increase troops in Afghanistan.

    If I was Obama, can you imagine how many women oops I mean church members I would have to lay hands on!

  21. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP
    What is your point? You confining the purpose of the Council of Nicea on words of the Creed? Well a whole country is established by a constitution which espouses the basic tenets of governance and government. Then Parliaments fill in the detail by passing laws which adhere to certain principles of democracy, etc.

    What is your point? It is from this creed that everything you believe in, flows: every practice of Christianity including Xmas, Easter, etc, all flows from this one creed. This is where the practice of Catholicism is defined to follow one path and if you believe in Jesus Christ then you accept the Bible lock, stock and barrel; LOADED.

    So please don’t mislead. When you paste it up and make somebody feel that these are innocent words; these are loaded words; each with their own extended and contemporary meanings. In legal terms, for example, damages and costs are two different things but each with their own designation.

    So the creed came with an understanding or companion that these things are settled and standardised everywhere, with a prescribed practice or ritual.

    Furthermore, if it was so simple, why would it take 360+ bishops meeting for weeks just to come up with that? No That creed is the basis of world power, so GP,

  22. David Avatar
    David

    Submitted on 2009/04/05 at 4:09pm

    @ David…

    I also read that he (Obama) is looking to cut back on nuclear weapons buildup. Will he pass this message on to his closest Mid-East ally, Israel, who refuses to join any treaties or have any inspections??
    Why all the fuss about North Korea when they are many ‘rogue’ nations with ICBM capabilities, who dont even see eye to eye with the US?
    Right now it is anyone’s guess as to who controls Russia’s nuclear arsenal.

    Listened to an interview with former Secretary of State James Baker recently who opined that even if Israel were arrogant enough to attack Iran it probably does not that the technical capacity/resources to deal with what would follow i.e. the rallying of the Arab world and the counterattacks which would follow.

  23. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    My dear Rok. Your rants always remind me of a young erratic excited fast bowler who has no idea what so ever where the stumps are.

    I asked you a simple question, which you have not yet answered.

    Do you know that most evangelical Christians do not even know that there is something called the Nicene Creed or even the Apostle’s creed; even though they actually believe the clauses of the creed, since the clauses is basic NT doctrine?

    The Nicene or Apostles Creeds are not recited or read in any church meeting of the Evangelical Church.

    Do you know that before Constantine corrupted the church in AD 313 by merging the Church with the State that the early church did not observe Xmas, Easter, etc, or follow what you call the practice of (Roman) Catholicism? Most evangelical churches still do not have special services or meetings for Christmas, Easter etc.

    Do you know that the early church and most evangelical Christians today still base their worship and life practice, not on the Nicene Creed, but essentially on the tenets of Acts 2:42? This verse says “And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.”; the emphasis being placed on the phrase “the apostles’ doctrine” or those teachings handed down by Christ which teach that Christ would come and suffer and die; then ascend, be intercessor and finally return.

    Do you know for example, that the Baptists adhere not to the Nicene Creed, but to the Baptist distinctives; the first of which is that the BIBLE is the ONLY authority for faith and practice. Note not the Bible AND the church, or the priest or the pastor, but the BIBLE ONLY. You do know that when Luther defected from the Roman Catholic Church, that his motto was SOLO SCRIPTURA – The Bible only!

    So you have erred in your position that the Nicene creed “came with an understanding or companion that these things are settled and standardised everywhere, with a prescribed practice or ritual.” because the Evangelical church is not at all standardized, nor do they practice any real rituals. They sing a bit, pray a bit and preach or teach the Word with varying degrees of intensity and accuracy, with little frills or ceremony.

    Do you know that one of the main reasons for the Council of Nicea was to solve the rift between the Arians and the followers of Athenasius concerning the Doctrine of Jesus Christ?

    You of course know that there was no dispute concerning the Doctrine of Jesus Christ in the pre-Constantine “Church”. After all the church was founded according to Jesus on Peter’s declaration that Jesus was the CHRIST, the Son of the living God. That it was upon this TRUTH that the church was founded is evident by even a very cursory reading of the NT.

    The persecuted preConstantine church had no time for rituals…. nor does the persecuted Church today! Thousands upon thousands meet underground today around the Word of God, in many parts of the world- especially the Muslim world.

    Here are a few examples of important verses that evangelicals stress.

    Paul gives the definition of the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 thus
    15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
    Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    Now I know that you don’t believe the Bible and that you say that the concept of Jesus is a myth (because you have made that clear, and you of course, have that right); but I have found on searching the Scriptures that the passages about Jesus in the Bible can be summarized under one of these seven “vees”:
    His VIRGIN BIRTH
    His VIRTUOUS LIFE
    His VICARIOUS SUFFERING
    His VICTORIUS RESURRECTION
    His VINDICAIVE ASCENSION
    His VITAL SESSION
    His VISIBLE RETURN

    Its not a coincidence that the main issues of the Nicene Creed revolves around these planks, because that is the apostles’ doctrine upon which the Church was founded, and which the contemporary church still generally adheres to, despite the fact that the church has departed far from the faith as predicted by Jesus, Paul, Peter and Jude.

    Yes Rok. if you believe in Jesus Christ then you accept the Bible lock, stock and barrel, and vice versa. How can you divorce the Bible from the Christ of the Bible?

    Moses spoke of Him in Deuteronomy 18 and referred to Him as a prophet that was to come. Check John’s gospel, and you will see the Jews wanted to know if he was the prophet, or that prophet that was to come etc.

    It didn’t take360+ bishops meeting for weeks just to come up with the Nicene Creed Rok, ma boy. That’s what the church that Constantine had started to corrupt with paganism and ritiual still believed. The Christian church has always tended to meet around the person of Christ. Even the false church pretends to meet around the person of Christ. If you dont know the truth, you cant detect and will fall for error.

    When I teach, I always stress that you have to look for the googly; just as all great leg spinners have a googly, so do false teachers who come in Christ’s name.

    I hope that this brief superficial treatment of the subject will enlighten you Sir.

  24. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    ‘Do you know that most evangelical Christians do not even know that there is something called the Nicene Creed or even the Apostle’s creed; even though they actually believe the clauses of the creed, since the clauses is basic NT doctrine?’ Now isn’t that a shame. Just Trust and Obey for there’s no other way. Don’t question, don’t try to be logical just believe what we tell you. No wonder the slave master didn’t want the slaves to learn to read. Could you image what’s gonna happen when these people find out that Constantine was a murderer? This is the dawning of Aquarius a Spiritual Awakening is on the horizon for Black People.

  25. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP
    “My dear Rok. Your rants always remind me of a young erratic excited fast bowler who has no idea what so ever where the stumps are.”

    YOU WOULD LIKE TO FOOL PEOPLE WITH THAT.

    “I asked you a simple question, which you have not yet answered.”

    YOU CHOOSE TO IGNORE THE ANSWER WHICH IS THAT IT IS ALL UNSCRIPTURAL.

    “Do you know that most evangelical Christians do not even know that there is something called the Nicene Creed”

    HOW MANY PEOPLE KNOW THE CONSTITUTION OF BARBADOS AND UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS AN EXECUTIVE ORDER FROM BRITAIN?

    “Do you know that before Constantine corrupted the church in AD 313 by merging the Church with the State that the early church did not observe Xmas, Easter, etc, or follow what you call the practice of (Roman) Catholicism? Most evangelical churches still do not have special services or meetings for Christmas, Easter etc.”

    YOU REPEATING WHAT I SAID, WHAT IS THE POINT?

    “Do you know that the early church and most evangelical Christians today still base their worship and life practice, not on the Nicene Creed, but essentially on the tenets of Acts 2:42?”

    YOU HAVE THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE.

    “Do you know for example, that the Baptists adhere not to the Nicene Creed, but to the Baptist distinctives; the first of which is that the BIBLE is the ONLY authority for faith and practice.”

    AGAIN THE CART IS BEFORE THE HORSE.

    “So you have erred in your position that the Nicene creed”

    HAVE I?

    “The persecuted preConstantine church had no time for rituals…. ”

    NONSENSE

    “How can you divorce the Bible from the Christ of the Bible?”

    THEY WERE NOT ALWAYS MARRIED.

    “It didn’t take360+ bishops meeting for weeks just to come up with the Nicene Creed Rok, ma boy.”

    THAT IS BECAUSE YOU STILL DON’T UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF THE COUNCIL OF NICEA TO WORLD POLITICS.

    “That’s what the church that Constantine had started to corrupt with paganism and ritiual still believed.”

    YOU ARE DEFAMING CONSTANTINE. THE CHURCH CORRUPTED ITSELF.

    “The Christian church has always tended to meet around the person of Christ.”

    AND FROM WHEN DID THIS START? EXACTLY WHEN DID THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH START? CERTAINLY BY THE TIME OF CONSTANTINE, IT COULD NOT HAVE BEEN TOO WELL ESTABLISHED IN THE FACE OF THE TRADITIONAL RELIGIONS. I PUT IT TO YOU THAT CHRISTIANITY STARTED OR LAUNCHED WITH THE CREED.

    “If you dont know the truth, you cant detect and will fall for error.”

    NONSENSE: THIS IS ONE OF YOUR SMUG TACTICS TO MAKE PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT YOU KNOW THE TRUTH, WHEN EACH SIDE IS JUST AS MUCH IN THE “DARK” AS THE OTHER.

    “When I teach, I always stress that you have to look for the googly; just as all great leg spinners have a googly, so do false teachers who come in Christ’s name.”

    IT IS ALL FALSE SO DON’T LET US SPLIT HAIRS.

    “I hope that this brief superficial treatment of the subject will enlighten you Sir.”

    YES SIR, IT DID… AND THE SOONER YOU STOP FOOLING PEOPLE THE BETTER.

  26. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP

    One more thing. There can be nothing more false and deceiving than putting forward a belief as truth.

  27. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP

    YOU CANNOT MAKE THIS STATEMENT:

    “Do you know that most evangelical Christians do not even know that there is something called the Nicene Creed or even the Apostle’s creed; even though they actually believe the clauses of the creed…?”

    AND THEN COME BACK AND MAKE THESE ONES:

    “Do you know for example, that the Baptists adhere not to the Nicene Creed, but to the Baptist distinctives;”

    “Do you know that the early church and most evangelical Christians today still base their worship and life practice, not on the Nicene Creed, but essentially on the tenets of Acts 2:42?”

    HIGHLY CONTRADICTORY!

  28. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP

    “You of course know that there was no dispute concerning the Doctrine of Jesus Christ in the pre-Constantine “Church”. After all the church was founded according to Jesus on Peter’s declaration that Jesus was the CHRIST, the Son of the living God. That it was upon this TRUTH that the church was founded is evident by even a very cursory reading of the NT.”

    IT WAS THE COUNCIL OF NICEA THAT LEGITIMISED THE ABOVE… AND BY THE WAY THE MEANING OF WEATHER IS WEATHER.

  29. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    My dear Rok.
    When you say that the clauses of the Nicene creed are unscriptural, you confirm that you do not know the Scriptures. But that has already been well established.

    The fact that most evangelical Christians do not even know that there is something called the Nicene Creed, indicates that it is necessary only to believe and accept the Bible as the sole authority for faith and practice.

    The early church did not observe Xmas, Easter, etc, or follow what you call the practice of (Roman) Catholicism, because church meetings and worship were simple, and these pagan issues had not been introduced into the “established Church”, so called.

    I hope you know that the true believers DID NOT JOIN THE ESTABLISHED OR ROMAN CHURCH.

    I cannot see how the fact that the early church and most evangelical Christians today still base their worship and life practice, not on the Nicene Creed, but essentially on the tenets of Acts 2:42 could be putting the cart before the horse, because this was the practice of the early church prior to the council of Nicea.

    How many church goers or true believers know or even care that there was a council of Nicea. Many know about and read thier Bibles regularly, however. Ah lie?

    I cannot see how the fact that the Baptists adhere not to the Nicene Creed, but to the Baptist distinctives; the first of which is that the BIBLE is the ONLY authority for faith and practice could be putting the cart before the horse. Clearly you do not know Baptist Church history- if any church history at all.

    The Plymouth Brethren, who essentially emerged from the Anglican church do not recite or even discuss the Nicene Creed. Their mission statement is Acts 2:42.

    Please indicate what were the rituals practiced by the persecuted pre Constantine church. Do you think that an essentially underground church that was by then dispersed throughout the then Roman world had time for rituals?

    The evangelical church still teaches that there are ONLY TWO ORDINANCES of the church; Baptism by immersion of regenerated believers, and the breaking of bread or Holy Communion.

    You cannot divorce the Bible from the Christ of the Bible, because the Bible is a Christo-centric book. Christ is the hero of the Bible. He is seen in type and figure throughout. He him self said so in John 5 and Luke 24. Stephen, Paul and Peter in the book of Acts taught thus.

    Believers don’t care about the importance of the Council of Nicea to world politics. Believers interest in the course of world politics is seen in the fulfillment of Daniel chapters 2, and 9 and Ezekiel 36-39 and Revelation 6-21.These scriptures accurately predict the course of world history. And Jesus spoke of the filling uo of “the time of the Gentiles.”

    The true Christian church meets around the person of Christ, because Christ is the Head of the Church, and because He has the PRE-EMINENCE I the church. This is the clear teaching of the book of Colossians.

    Everyone knows that the Christian Church started at Pentecost as stated in the book of Acts. The church was well established by Constantine in the hearts of the members. They were dying and willing to suffer and die in his name. The church has never been stronger or purer that the era of the Apostolic church and the pre- Contantine era. The Devil could not destroy the church by persecution, so he corrupted it by deception. Constantine was not a theologian. It was he that merged the church and state, contrary to the practice as indicated in Acts 4.

    That the church started with the creed post AD 313 is hilarious. So who were Paul and Stephen and James and Timothy and Titus etc if not prominent men in the early Church.

    Read the book of Acts. It indicates the earliest period of the church. All texts of Church History start there, except that by the “infallible Rok” which starts at the Council of Nicea. Hilarious!

    The greatest theologian of all times, RO K will have us believe that the church corrupted itself despite the clear teaching to the contrary in Acts 20, 2 Peter 2 and Jude 4-19! I think I will stick to the above Scriptures.

    At no time in your post do you relate any thing you say to the Word of God- which is the truth. How can you have a discussion about the church- which is the “pillar and ground of truth” without referring to the Word of Truth.

    Rok I would suggest that you get a text book of Systematic Theology. Perhaps GREAT DOCTRINES OF THE BIBLE by Evans, would be the simplest, and a good place for you to start. Read the chapters on SORTERIOLOGY (the doctrine of the Son) and ECCLESIOLOGY ( the doctrine of the Church.)

    You can put forth a belief as truth if the belief is TRUTH. Christianity and the Christian Church is centered around Christ. Christ said so.

    Re YOU CANNOT MAKE THIS STATEMENT:
    “Do you know that most evangelical Christians do not even know that there is something called the Nicene Creed or even the Apostle’s creed; even though they actually believe the clauses of the creed…?”

    This is in fact so! I know the Nicene Creed because I was once an Anglican of the Anglicans. But on giving my heart to the Lord and leaving the Anglican Church, I had not read or recited the Nicene creed for about 30years, when I attended a Church History Class and the dispute between Arius and Athanasius surfaced. So I examined the clauses in the creed, and found that they were all sound, and that I could support every clause by numerous scriptures.

    Though the greatest Theologian the world has ever known R O K, thinks that the Nicene Creed is unscriptural, he cannot cite any Scriptures to prove his very dull point.

    It is indeed a fact Rok that the Baptists adhere not to the Nicene Creed, but to the Baptist distinctives. I have never heard the Nicene creed in a Baptist church ever.
    And there is nothing contradictory about my point that the early church and most evangelical Christians today still base their worship and life practice, not on the Nicene Creed, but essentially on the tenets of Acts 2:42?” The Scriptures say so. Do you know any Plymouth Brethren. Man they harp on Acts 2:42!

    Again I repeat that there was no dispute concerning the Doctrine of Jesus Christ in the pre-Constantine “Church”. After all the church was founded according to Jesus on Peter’s declaration that Jesus was the CHRIST, the Son of the living God. That it was upon this TRUTH that the church was founded is evident by even a very cursory reading of the NT.

    And by the way, LEGITIMISED is a bad word in a real NT church. Law is out! Grace & FAITH are in!

    While the fellas were disputing about the doctrine of Christ and showing that Arius was a heretict, the TRUE CHURCH were doing there own thing. But that is another story. Read it in the Faithful Baptist Witness or the Trail of Blood.

    Free from the law, O happy condition,
    Jesus has bled and there is remission,
    Cursed by the law and bruised by the fall,
    Grace hath redeemed us once for all.

    Refrain
    Once for all, O sinner, receive it,
    Once for all, O brother, believe it;
    Cling to the cross, the burden will fall,
    Christ hath redeemed us once for all.
    Refrain

    Now we are free, there’s no condemnation,
    Jesus provides a perfect salvation.
    “Come unto Me,” O hear His sweet call,
    Come, and He saves us once for all.

    Refrain

    “Children of God,” O glorious calling,
    Surely His grace will keep us from falling;
    Passing from death to life at His call;
    Blessèd salvation once for all.

  30. Avatar
    Anonymous

    Alex Jones made this video. The man is a complete joke and a fraud although conspiracy theorists love him. He is well known for commercial exploitation of 911 and was the biggest winner of that event. Anyone who doubts he is a fraud can check out his early fear mongering days at the turn of the millennium on youtube where he announces the Russians launched a world invasion and told everyone to run for the hills! Seriously! The guy is a moron. Before you guys start debating a film, you should check out the author and his credibility before wasting everyone’s time as the number of posts here show!

  31. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Rok

    Seems you are the only theologian that dont KNOW or BELIEVE that the BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD and that JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD.

    These are essential beliefs of the Christian Church. Note that the Bible says little about religion, as true Christianity has nothing to do with religion.

  32. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    @Anonymous……. I do have many issues with Alex Jones, like him really being afraid to call a call out the real criminals by their name. And yea he did hype up some bogus russian invasion. That’s why I say he’s an emotional vampire. Before this film was made I knew that Obama was a deception. I will NOT defend Alex Jones because he has a big dog in this fight, but the people who are contracting the world’s economy right now are the biggest beneficiaries of the bogus 9/11 attack. How much did AIG get, how much did Silverstein get, how much are the bankers getting, how much is Blackwater (Z) getting? Who does BaRat Obama answer to? Who pulls his strings? I can go on and on about the real profiteers of 9/11. What is it in the film that is a LIE? What is it about the film that you disagree with? Why don’t you state what’s wrong or false about this piece and then go on to criticise the producer. When you possess such a puny mind you can only see life in one dimension hence you see this discussion as ‘wasting everyone’s time’, for you there’s no corelation Too bad you had to be caught up in this ‘waste of time’ also. You come a dime a dozen.There are so many ‘anonymice’ on this blog. Wish the real one would stand up, or not chose to post as such, and use their ‘normal’ handle.

  33. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    ROK, has no intellectual capacity or ability to reason objectively, cogently, or critically on any of these matters, which are CEMENTED IN VALID HISTORIC FACTS.

    What are the LOGICAL Historic facts, set out chronologically, that simply CANNOT be refuted?

    1] That the Historic Person of Christ was a FACT, confirmed by the Legal Evidence of His Apostles plus 500+ eyewitnesses, A.D. 1-00.

    2] Confirmed by Secular Historians and other Authorities within the Roman State, i.e, Governor Pliny’s description: Judicial Inquiry to Trajan, from Pontus_Bithynia, A.D. 122. Hear Pliny:

    “…in te case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have OBSERVED the following procedure: I INTERROGATED these as to whether they were CHRISTIANS, those who CONFESSED I interrogated a SECOND and THIRD time, threatening THEM with ounishment; those who persisted I ordered executed [Cf. Acts 5:12-42; I Peter 1:1-9 & 2:11-17]….Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image..and moreover CURSEd Christ–NONE of which those who are REALLY CHRISTIANS, it is said, CAN BE FORCED TO DO [Cf. I Cor 12:2-3] – these I thought should be discharged…They asserted, however, that the sum and sibstance of their fault or error had been that they were ACCUSTOMED to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to CHRIST as to a God [Cf. Phil. 2:5-11] and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trsust when called upon to do so, When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food – but ordinary and innocent food [ i.e., not cannibalism, Cf. I Cor 10:1-11; esp 10:16-17]…Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses [Cf. Rom 16: 1-2] But I descovered nothingg else but depraved, excessive superstition.” [By those who hated Christians).

    And you ROK, say that Christianity only began with Constantine and Nicea; here is Historic Evidence from Governor Pliny, JUDICIAL inquiry to Trajan, from Pontus-Bithynia, A.D. 112.

    3] The Historic chronology of the FACTS, continue; we HAVE the writings of Ignatius, Polycarp, and Clement of Rome, ALL three of their Testimonies ARE PRESERVED UP UNTIL TODAY, from A.D 95-115 and in so doing CONFIRM they USED 25 of 27 NEW TESTAMENTS documents, the WORD OF GOD, long before Constantine and the Council of Nicea. FACTS, FACTS, and more FACTS.

    3] The further INDUBITABLE, Positive, certain, incontestable, irrefutable, SURE, undeniable, unquestionable, factually TRUE evidence for these FACTS from the New Testament era, and the subsequent EVIDENCE of the Early Church Father, IGNATIUS, POLYCARP, and CLEMENT of Rome, A.D. 95-115+, the CONTENT and Text of which, is resolutely to be found in the Roman Catholic TEXT, Circa A.D 325 and following, right up to this very DAY, resoundingly, and unmistakably, REFUTE, PROVE the utter falsity and ERRONEOUS, nonsense of you unhistorical DIATRIBE.

    What a FOOL, you have made of yourself!!!

  34. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Zoe
    You does hit he too hard though! Wow!
    GP does tap he lightly, but you does hit he real hard. I does feel it man. Whacks! Palax! Catax! Bruggadown! Walop!

  35. AlexJones Avatar
    AlexJones

    Hype up a bogus russian invasion? You mean he has a history as a fiction writer and now you take his word as fact? He could as well have written HG Wells War of the Worlds with that broadcast! I know how it works with the AJ supporters so I know I am digging myself into a deep hole here as this is like arguing about religion and on this same thread you can see how far that gets you. I posted Anon because I don’t post, a friend just showed me AJ has made it to the big time in this forum as he knows I laugh at AJ. Let me now be known as “AlexJones” in his and your honour! Yes, I understand that this has wasted my time now as well as everyone else’s! I didn’t watch the film to be honest as Chomsky et al on Znet are a better use of my time than the BS forums over at prisonplanet, although I am well aware big bad AJ can call Chomsky a shill once he is off the air and not to his face! What a big man AJ is! Anyways, I don’t doubt the film has some truth in it, but even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes. He can’t make 2 hours of film and not get a few things right and he would not be teaching me anything new anyways for what he did get right. I don’t have two hours of my time to listen to his drivel to be honest. So criticize me for criticizing the man and not the film. It is fine, but I know the writer has many works of fiction out there and is a great fear mongering profiteer, one of the greatest and the best, I will give him props and due respect for that as he laughs all the way to the bank! He sells megaphones that he uses to yell down hotels for like what $50k + USD just cus he gets arrested for public disturbances? I can take a megaphone and yell down the Hilton hotel and film myself too! hahaha

  36. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    @’AJ’…….Just like AJ, Chomsky is a damn gatekeeper. There are some things they will and will not touch with a ten-foot pole. What in this piece about BaRat is a LIE?

  37. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP, ZOE, Anonymous,

    What you guys miss is that the Bible is a lie and therefore to quote from a lie is only to prove a lie.

    There is no truth in Christianity because it is all based on belief and for Christianity to work for anybody means accepting lock, stock and barrel, all the lies, otherwise it does not make sense.

    So what Whax pallax you talking about? You think I have any interest in your detiailed b/s? It proves nothing. It is nothing and the only thing you can do is quote the Bible to prove the Bible, and then Georgie like the old time fundamentalist can only sing a song at me.

    None of it proves anything and when it comes to the spirit the most spiritually decrepit religion on earth is Christianity. The Buddist, the Muslim, and all those that you scoff at are by far more spiritually rewarding religions than Christianity.

    So when you think that you are so much more than anybody or know more than anybody, it is only that you do not realise that you are less than anybody and know less than anybody else.

    GP who is supposed to be your best scholar in this forum tripping up all over the lies. He obviously does not understand what he is saying; full on contradictions and get lost in the emotional detail; loose all objectivity.

    So you guys wallop in your ignorance and the God given talents that you acquired, you allow to be corrupted and seeking to corrupt others; how much more wicked can you get; unwittingly.

    BTW: you or christianity does not have any monopoly on the word God and when I say God I mean the true God that dwells in me and all of we, and not that thing that led the Israelites out of Egypt.

  38. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    To Rok Head, and others of his ilk, who claim that Constantine at Nicea, A.D. 325 wrote the Creed to falsify the ‘Deity’ of Christ, let us listen to Clement of Rome A.D 95, Polycarp A.D. 110+ and Ignatius A.D 110-115, 200 years before the Council of Nicea.

    Clement of Rome, A.D. 95:

    “Let us fear the Lord Jesus (Christ) whose blood was given for us (His Crucifixion). The Apostles received the Gospel for us FROM the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ WAS SENT from God. He made the Lord Jesus Christ the first fruit, when He RAISED Him from the dead.”

    Ignatius, A.D. 110-115:

    “Be ye deaf therefore, when any man speaketh to you apart from Jesus Christ, who was born of the race of David, who was the Son of Mary, who was truly born and ate and drank, was truly persecuted under Pontius Pilate, was truly Crucified and died in the sight of those in Heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth; WHO moreover WAS TRULY RAISED from the dead, His Father having Raised Him…”

    Polycarp A.D 110+.

    “Jesus Christ who took our sins in His own body upon the tree, who did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth, but for our sakes He endured all things, that we might live in Him…For they loved not the present world, but HIM that DIED for our sake and was RAISED by God for us…who shall believe on our Lord and God, Jesus Christ and His Father that RAISED Him from the dead.”

    Now, without specifically identifying the TEXT of the New Testament Scripture, these three early Church Fathers, literally used the VERY words that ARE RECORDED in the New Testament, alluding to them, almost verbatim, confirming their concrete awareness of the Apostolic WITNESS to the very ‘Deity’ God of very God, of The Lord Jesus Christ, WHICH the Council of Nicea, 200 years later, gave authoritative sanction to.

    Historically, therefore, and by any Logical conclusion based on this EVIDENCE 200 hundred years BEFORE Constantine, that JESUS CHRIST was already recognized and CONFIRMED to be ‘Deity’ God Incarnate, only an intellectually ‘dishonest’ person, or an idiot, would not understand this!

  39. Avatar
    Anonymous

    It amazes me that people quote the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church (viz Clement, Polycarp and Ignatius) as authority but reject the same Roman Catholic Church.

  40. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    ROK, I like Carlos did in another BU thread, CHALLENGE you et al, ANYTIME, any where, in a public FORUM, to be recorded by TV, Media, etc, to PROVE if your ‘god’ that dwells in you, FOR, your god, most certainly does NOT dwell in ME, nor other genuine Christians, to a SHOWDOWN.

    1] Bring your disciples of this ‘god’ who dwells in you, let us hear their amazing testimonies of ‘Transformed’ lives, healing and deliverance, etc, etc, from all kinds of sickness, etc, etc., ALSO we want some sick people there, who NEED healing of whatever, YOU will pray through YOUR ‘god’ first for their healing, deliverance, etc, We Christians will THEN pray for these sick people, LETS see, then what happens; are you and yours ready for this CHALLENGE?

    BTW, you can bring whatever evidence you have, especially film of people being healed, delivered, etc, by your ‘god’ We will bring ours, Glorifying Our Great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

    Are you ready Rok, bring your ‘proof’ We will bring ours, Fire, might very well fall from Heaven, as it DID with Elijah and the FALSE prophets of BAAL!

    Can you DEAL with this, Mr. Rok?

  41. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @Zoe: “I like Carlos did in another BU thread, CHALLENGE you et al, ANYTIME, any where, in a public FORUM, to be recorded by TV, Media, etc, to PROVE if your ‘god’ that dwells in you, FOR, your god, most certainly does NOT dwell in ME, nor other genuine Christians, to a SHOWDOWN.

    I’m prepared to answer that challenge.

    Name a time and a place (with at least 72 hours of notice) where there will be Television coverage, wireless internet access, and a whiteboard, and I personally will be there.

    Zoe… What says you to my above?

  42. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Anonymous, “It amazes me that people quote the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church (viz Clement, Polycarp and Ignatius as authority, but reject the same Roman Catholic Church.”

    Anon, you ARE sadly mistaken, as the Roman Catholic Church, DID NOT exist in the era of Polycarp, Ignatius, and Clement, this is a MONSTROUS LIE, vehemently propagated by Catholicism for 1600 years, yes, they love to quote from some of these early Post-Apostolic fathers, claiming them to be Roman Catholics, they WERE NOT, how could they be when no such Religious/Political Institution existed, until 200 years later.

    Roman Catholicism HAD it formal birth with Constantine Circa 311-337, and then, begun the formation of ALL the paganistic heresies, that gradually developed over many centuries.

    Yes, some erroneous doctrines were already creaping in from Circa 200 onward, BUT, this was contray to the very TEXT they were using; even in the very Apostolic era, Paul and others were already dealing with and correcting ‘False’ doctrine that was trying to take root in the Church, i.e., his stingling Polemic against the Judaisers in the Galatian church, and others, as this was nothing knew.

    Roman Catholicism developed into the most wicked, evil, tyrannical, Religious/Political institution ever, all foretold in Revlation 17, ‘The Whore’ who sits on many waters, has drunk the blood of the Maryters, etc, etc.

    This historical distortion you hold to, is a monstrous LIE.

  43. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    C Halsall, are you going to be a ‘bystander’ observing, OR are you going to bring ‘PROOF’ of your ‘Agnostic’ whatever?

    Are you willing to stand UP, and Testify of your utterly ‘Tranformed’ Agnostic life?

  44. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @Zoe…

    Have you *ever* known me not to be more than willing to stand up, and debate what I believe?

    To be very explicit — I’m *more* than prepared to “Testify” to the empowerment of an Agnostic believe system.

    I do add one additional condition, however: I, and the audience, must know who we are debating with.

    I ask again: what says you to my answer to your challenge?

  45. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    Zoe…..How is Jesus of the lineage of David when he was born of Mary thru immaculate conception? Isn’t it Joseph who is of the lineage of David? And because of ‘Adam’ all man was born sinful, which means that Mary had to be sinful too and by extension Jesus. Isn’t this true Zoe?

  46. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Rok

    First I must thank you for your kind compliment, Sir; but truly Zoe is obviously the better scholar. He has clearly read much more of the relevant literature than I have. But then you wont be able to tell that; now would you?

    The man quotes books that I know of only from reading the bibliographies of books that I have read. He has apparently actually read these books.

    Clearly you don’t KNOW or BELIEVE the Bible, and we understand and accept that. The more you post, the more you make that plain. We on the other hand, have studied and believe the Bible and seek to follow it. As you can see we have obeyed 2 Tim 2:15 & 1 Peter 3:15. I think we have a little grasp of it.

    Am I to understand from your enlightened propositions that Christianity is all based on belief, but other religions are based only on FACT? And what would you have me to quote from to prove the Bible, Sir? What volumes would you have me to read to be as enlightened as you Sir?

    At least you are fair in pointing out that our arguments are detailed; as those of any good organized scholar or student should be. We are still looking for a detailed, logical, well reasoned presentation from you. Something, anything to support your claims (may I say beliefs? After all, only Christianity is characterized by beliefs, right?)

    Rok I am proud to be a fundamentalist, Sir. I have for over 40 years held tenaciously to the foundations of the faith once delivered to the saints (Jude 3), and I love hymns and spiritual songs which paraphrase Scripture, or teach Bible doctrine.

    I love this one Rok….I think I will frame it

    “So when you think that you are so much more than anybody or know more than anybody, it is only that you do not realise that you are less than anybody and know less than anybody else.”

    Actually ROK, the doctrine we declare is fairly common knowledge. Many regular Evangelical church goers who sit under good preaching and teaching, each week, and who study for themselves to see if these things are so or not- like the saints at Berea in Acts 17, can tell you most of what we are saying here man.

    This is run of the mill, basic up and down Bible Study Basics ROK, ma boy. Some very humble, lowly, poor, unknown folk in our society can discuss the Bible to this general standard man. I talking bout “unlearned” masons and carpenters and cashiers etc etc Rokky.

    Rok ma boy, can you indicate using relevant Bible passages (after all I only deal in Bible) where I have evinced that I obviously do not know what I am saying, that I contradict myself, or lose objectivity?

    Rok, I humbly submit to you that the One who led the Israelites out of Egypt was a very powerful Person; and one worthy of praise and worship.That was not an easy task by all accounts, Sir!

    Yes Rok we revel in our God given ability to rightly divide the Word of Truth, and we sincerely wish that we could lead you to Christ, so that you could have the Holy Spirit as your Indwelling or Resident Tutor also, as taught in 1 John 2:20 &27, because as clearly stated in 1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural (or unregenerasted man) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

  47. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    Zoe…..How is Jesus of the lineage of David? Is it thru Mary or Joseph? And according to Christian doctrine all men are born in sin and since Mary was born of woman & man she had to be a sinner and by extension Jesus? Isn’t that so?

  48. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Zoe

    You live in a glass house. You don’t have any proof of anything either. Stop throwing stones.

  49. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Hopi, I am sure that you know from both the genealogies of Jesus in Mathew and in Luke that BOTH Mary and Joseph were of the lineage of David via different sons of David.

    Since Mary was born of woman & man she had to be a sinner, just as you say. However, the Bible teaches that Jesus was concieved of the Holy Ghost and several Scriptures teach that he was without sin.

    This is not easily understood, but this is what Christians believe.

  50. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Zoe

    “Rok, I humbly submit to you that the One who led the Israelites out of Egypt was a very powerful Person;”

    That is the problem with your religion; God cannot be a person. Neither male nor female, nor neuter, but all.

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