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Public Faces, Private Lives: Homosexuality in Barbados

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Submitted by Yardbroom

letstalk If recent events are indicative of the public mood, it seems we are afraid of having a “proper debate” about homosexuality in Barbados.  We must address this situation because if we do not, opinions will become hardened and polarized, making it impossible for “understanding” and a meeting of minds.

To have a proper debate, those whom we oppose should be allowed to have their say.  We have not got to agree to a position held to listen to the speaker; it is our right to disagree and disagree we should, if that is our strongly held stance.  However, to personalize the issue by using names to substantiate  our stance is sometimes not productive; we rarely convince others by clubbing them over the head, they may cower in fear, but they will never be convinced of the rightness of our case.

As in some heterosexual relationships, homosexual ones can be challenging, so challenging that one is tempted to ask, where is the love?  Is it beyond us to show some compassion to those relationships we do not understand and cannot agree with?  Is it fair to invoke a religious position to entrench our views?  I do not know.  If the debate is opened it is possible to allow those we have never heard before  express a view.

They will only enter our house if the door is open.

Giving an audience and listening is not necessarily agreeing with what is being said, but it strengthens the reasonableness of our attitude, and gives us time to reflect. Of course there is the alternative view that all such unions are an abomination and are against strongly held religious views and nature, and cannot be reconciled with “good conduct.”   Perhaps we could use the last two words of the last sentence as the “leitmotif” as to the way “we” conduct ourselves in a mature debate about homosexuals in Barbados.

Let us concentrate on the issues not on individuals, if no personal names are used there is  a better  chance  of having an “honest and open debate” with compassion, yet underscored by  strongly held principles.

The door is open we are listening…

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229 responses to “Public Faces, Private Lives: Homosexuality in Barbados”

  1. David Avatar
    David

    BU’s position on homosexuality is very well known by now. While we hold a position that strongly discourages this behaviour we are mindful that some human beings are born with their hormones all screwed-up. It makes sense to deal with this as an abnormality/exception. In our view the majority of people who profess to be homosexuals do so on the basis of embracing lifestyle behaviour; what is popular, we don’t want to use the word relativism but maybe it is appropriate.

    We don’t have to use a religious argument to explain our position, only commonsense. Mankind’s existence is dependent on procreation. If as humans we were to accept homosexuality as normal then by using logic we are saying that procreation is irrelevant.

    By the way, why is it that most homosexuals yearn for opportunity to raise children which is an act of procreation. Some people we know of may find our analysis of the situation simple but until our simple questions are answered we will hold on to our position.

  2. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    David,

    I think BU already knows my position on this also… but you may be setting yourself up with that line of argument based on what is “normal” or “natural”… simply because that argument hinges on sex having a SINGLE purpose… procreation. Scientific observation of Nature and animal behavior does not support the abnormal/natural arguments against homosexuality.
    There is no escaping it, the essence of this debate resides with traits which separate us from the animal world… Morality and Spirituality.

  3. bajejun Avatar
    bajejun

    I too strongly discourage homosexuality, as I do adultery, I would hope the day would never come in this country where the government would seek to legalise it. That being said, I also believe in a persons right to live their life as they see fit, I would also dare say I would more respect an open gay than a closet gay. Closet gays in my mind are the dangerous ones they tend to swing both ways ,

  4. Cynic Avatar
    Cynic

    I always find the idea the homosexuality is some sort of “popular” choice or a fashion to be, frankly, un-believable. I know many homosexual people who would change to being “normal” if they could figure out how, to avoid the stigma and social opprobrium. Homosexuals have not, in many cases come to accept themselves and are not happy with their situtation. Mainly because mainstream society constantly tells them what nasty, dirty and worthless people they are.

    I have never met a gay person, and I have met a fair few, for who being gay could be considered choice.

  5. me Avatar
    me

    LOL I still think it is amazing in this day and that intelligent people think that a gay person would be gay to be fashionable ‘ a la mode” as it were. And even if a few people chose to live a ‘gay lifestyle’, whatever that is, that these human beings would b representative of the whole group.
    ”
    In our view the majority of people who profess to be homosexuals do so on the basis of embracing lifestyle behaviour, what is popular, we don’t want to use the word relativism but maybe it is appropriate.” This statement is filled with assumptions. The use of the words ‘majority’, ‘profess’ ’embracing’ ‘popular’ is indicative of an attempt to blindly and irrationally justify a position that on rational reflection is nonsensical!

    Where is the statistics ti jsutify majority?
    Who is professing as opposed to acknowledging?
    Who is embracing as opposed to accepting or refusing to deny? And who determines that they ar embracing?
    How is being a homosexual popular or in….?Based on what statistics that you are privy too?

    Must homosexuals remain tortured and 3rd class citizens to be acceptable in your eyes?

    Should they stay in the closet, keep silent when they are abused ,commit suicide, sneak around , lie and hate themselves, spout of bible verses an attend church in higher numbers all the while being as mascuiline aspossible so gthat no one knows so that people like you BU are satisfied?

    Do they live for you?

  6. Sir Bentwood Dick Avatar
    Sir Bentwood Dick

    While I am what is labelled ‘heterosexual’ (I do not like labels of any kind, even ‘legit’ ones), I am not going to castigate others for their beliefs.

    Why?

    Is it my place to tell others how they live, as long as their lives do not impinge on myself or my family? No.

    Is it the Government’s place to impinge one choices of its citizens.

    Again, only in cases for such choices have significant negative effect on other citizens.

    That sentence in itself may create a drawn out argument, but I do not see the need, I have come to the conclusion that it is not necessary.

    A further point. I hope that it is understood that with the advent of artificial ‘creation’, the contaxt of this whole argument will change over the next while?

    How does one distinguish between ‘natural’ procreation which some profess is the only way, and artificial creation, such that parents may choose eye colour even.

    Granted, the ability to say, eliminate diabetes, by genetic engineering may be attractive to some parents.

    Is it natural, is it warranted?

    Where is the line drawn?

    Is this not part of the whole debate, or are we going to debate within one parameter?

    What limits exist that we may accept?

    I submit that this area is so broad and so individualistic that we could discuss forever and not come to a conclusion.

    I will use labels, for a short while.
    We may have the ‘religious’ from many denominations, the scientists, the ‘world-viewers’, the atheists.

    Who is right, who wrong?

    Again, this can only come down to whether a particular individual lifestyle negatively impacts society as a whole.

    The question is, how is this determined?

  7. Sir Bentwood Dick Avatar
    Sir Bentwood Dick

    To clarify, I would not go into a drawn out argument, but rely on the ‘impact’ on society to be taken into account by criminal law.

    The criminal law applies to all, of whatever belief or lack thereof.

  8. The scout Avatar
    The scout

    Mankind is regarded as the most intellegent of the animals, yet I don’t see other animals having sex with another animal of the same gender. If it happens, would some-one enlighten me. There are persons with hormone disorder that can be rectified.Is it then that nature has become so confused by our life styles that we see a poliferation of homosexuals in society today? I don’t agree.

  9. The scout Avatar
    The scout

    As we have more and more single parent homes, we seem to be breeding this un-natural behaviour. For instance, a single lady with a young boy who constantly tell that boy, he has no father, or that his father is no good. Then at home there are all female friend at your house, tends to gravitate towards the female tendencies. He is then influence to try female things like trying a man. Girls fall into the same problem. The lack of the complete family, man, woman and children is contributing to the increase in homosexuality. this is just one of many reasons for the increase.

  10. CENTIPEDE Avatar
    CENTIPEDE

    Really, “a public debate on homosexuality.” ? ? ?

    Are we going back to the times of the Inquisition?

    Who’s business is it… where one’s sexual orientation is to be ‘approved’ or not? And approved or disapproved by WHOM?

    Is it any body’s business if I prefer sushi and to wear jeans, just because eating cou-cou and sporting short pants is the fashion? Come on.

  11. jinx Avatar
    jinx

    I am also a heterosexual and i would love to engage in healthy dicussion but in my view this is about peoples rights.

    A homosexual has already stated thier feelings on the” Veoma ” story and was quickly shot down by agressive words and bible quotes.
    This is just another excuse to keep the hate or should i say “entertainment ” coming towards persons BU considers “abnormal”.
    I think there are more pressing issues such as child abuse, domestic abuse, and alcoholism to name but a few of the ills affecting us today.

    If anyone is truly interested in seeing both sides of this particular issue, might i suggest they watch, the documentary,
    “The Times Of Harvey Milk”.
    The first openly gay person to be elected to political office in California.

    Although he was assasinated and the trial was nothing short of a circus, those who opposed him (and not even with the venom expressed on BU ) eventually saw that he was above all else, HUMAN and willing to serve his communnity and to make a difference.

    I only wonder if some can think outside the box for a moment to consider this.

  12. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Scout… like David, you are heading down the wrong road with that line of argument…

    “I don’t see other animals having sex with another animal of the same gender.”

    Just do a little research…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-human_animal_sexuality

    http://www.news-medical.net/?id=20718

    Relying on the observation of species in the animal kingdom for ‘guidance’ on what is ‘normal’ sexual activity in humans is not advisable… this is a MORAL issue.

  13. Cynic Avatar
    Cynic

    To The scout

    Actually there are well documented cases of animals engaging in homosexual acts and forming partnership with members of the same sex. Most famously perhaps are the Penguins Roy and Tango, and Bonobo chimps, and in diverse species like Dolphins and Giraffes.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mammals_displaying_homosexual_behavior#Mammals

    Some people argue that these “stupid” animals are confused. I think the evidence is clear, it is people who are confused.

  14. Cynic Avatar
    Cynic

    correction that should be Roy and Silo

  15. David Avatar
    David

    How else can those of us who need enlightenment become so unless we discuss the issue? Even in countries where there is legislation and official acceptance of homosexuals the discussion continues. Don’t blame BU if we place an issue on the front burner that others would want to remain under the carpet and expect it to go away.

    MME we agree with you that as a society we have to apply the moral code to this issue. The example we gave maybe a little slippery but it is a position which is held by many. We took the opportunity to put that argument.

  16. The Rose Avatar
    The Rose

    Hi. Who are we to Judge any one on his or her lifestyle? And whyare we always on the homosexuality? what about the women who are live they own lifestyle as been lasbians? A homosexual ia a person to and has the right to live his life in the way he wants and the only person that he is answerable to is God and not me or you. Plus theman in the island are all hideing because in the DAY THEY ARE MAN AND AT NIGHT HOMOSEXUALS.

  17. Cynic Avatar
    Cynic

    I think that in most western societies operate in a permissive atmosphere.

    By that I mean that generally we allow people to behave as they choose unless that behaviour injures/harms another person.

    I am yet to be shown how homosexual behaviour injures or harms anyone.

  18. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    I am yet to be shown how homosexual behaviour injures or harms anyone.
    —————————————–

    Exactly

  19. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    I remember growing up reading the ‘On The Beach” series of books about Ken and Joy. Back then the word gay meant happy…..hmmm.

  20. Duppy Lizard Avatar
    Duppy Lizard

    Mr. Yardbroom, Are you retired and bored with life? Do you lay awake at night tossing and turning wondering what to do with yourself? Why don’t you become a volunteer at some meaningful cause – I am sure your life will become a lot happier instead of concerning yourself about things which don’t concern you. I am not a religous person (spiritual yes and there is a BIG difference) – but isn’t there something in the New Testament about “let those without sin cast the first stone” or even better “take the log out of your own eye before you take the speck out of your brother’s”.

    Not one single person is perfect my friend – including yourself.

  21. me Avatar
    me

    It is clear to me based on the argumnts put forth that certain posters on BU know ‘of ‘ homosexuals ( and what they believe homsexuality entails) but do not know any personally. They clearly have never had an in depth conversation with someone who is homosexual. Instaed they jump on the negative and salacious and use that to justify their hatred. As I have said before there are homosexual that are living their lives honestly, serving the community, paying their taxes and worrying about gas prices etc doing what humans do daily. That thy have an emotional and sexual attraction to members of the same sex is but one facet of their lives as human beings and that fact alone should not condemn them to ridicule, discrimination, fire and brimstone from others who have issues with that concept.

    Homosexuality has existed in nature since forever unless you believe that we did indeed come from Adam and Eve. In which case you would believe that methusealh did really live that long!

    The only difference today is that homosexuals are more willing to be honest an upfront about themselves ( but is this the case with everyone in todays world). What is so wronng with that?

  22. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @ Bajejun

    Do you think that two consenting adults, whether male or female should be jailed for having sex?

  23. A gay person Avatar
    A gay person

    The scout // September 23, 2008 at 6:06 am and Cynic // September 23, 2008 at 6:45 am

    Just for the record, during the early 70s, a study was done of rats in overcrowded conditions. It seems that we humans are most closely mirrored in the animal kingdom by rats. I seem to recall that the study was carried out at the University of London and that 80% of the rats developed exclusively homosexual tendencies. So, it may be argued that homosexuality is nature’s way of taking care of population explosions.

    Barbados has joined an international community that includes the USA, Canada and the European Community. Each and every one of those named have hate crime legislation where the sentences for making some of the anti-homosexual inflamatory comments I have read on the blogs can rage from 15 years (France) to 2 years (the United Kingdom). At some point in the not too distant future, Barbados will be called on to enact similar legislation and to decriminalize homosexuality, or to face the certainty of being listed as a country that condones and supports human rights abuses.

    Personally, as a gay person, I just don’t see what the big deal is. The act of physical intimacy between two consenting aduts in privacy is no one’s business but theirs. I have always found it distasteful to be forced to observe ANY couple “carrying on” in public, be they homo or hetero sexual. What consenting ADULTS do in the privacy of their own homes is their own business and ought not to be inflicted on anyone. I do not consider it cute to be forced to watch people being intimate in public. It leaves you not knowing where to look. If you look away and pretend that you don’t see what is going on, it makes you look stupid – and if you look at them, you feel like a peeping tom.

    The primary concern expressed nder the heavy disguise of the Bible seems to be that it will lead to the same-sex rape (whether real or statutory) of minors. That is nonsense. If you look at statistics, you will see that, apart from in prisons (and there are no minors there) same-sex rape of the underage occurs over 200,000 times less than heterosexual rape.

    In all developed countries in the World, homosexuality is a non-issue. I personally believe that in Barbados it is a non-issue, except for a tiny and extremely vocal minority – and the clergy who themslves, hypocritically, are the worst offenders in regard to statutory rape.

    I have never even attempted to hide my orientation and I have no cause to complain of my treatment in Barbados – no one seemed to give a damn, which suits me.

    One of the first gay people who came out in Barbados (back in the 1940s) told me that they had been castigated by a group of married women (back in the 1950s) about his orientation at a sociel gathering. These ladies had not noticed or questioned the fact that quite a few of their husbands refused to be drawn into the conversation. As he said, had they noticed their husbands’ reticence, they might have asked why – and he would have been happy to explain it to them.

    Finally, I want to say that it takes either the arrogance of teenage youth (which was true in my case) or tremendous courage to publicly admit what others have usually been whispering about you for years. That you are gayor, as I call myself, a buller. I think that it takes no less courage to admit that homosexuality is abhorrent to you, but that you wish and are prepared to understand it and find a means of accepting it and coexisting with those who are gay. Therefore, while it would be easy for me to condemn David for his express abohrrance of homosexuality, I find that by his willingness to discuss it with a view to understanding and coexistence and a middle ground, regretfully, I must praise him. Naturally an emotive topic like this doesn’t do his readership numbers any harm either – but it is brave.

    Apart from that, I said whatever else I have to say in the blog about Miss Ali.

  24. David Avatar
    David

    @me
    We agree with a lot of what you wrote; homosexuals must be respected. The reason we are having this debate is you and like minded persons have to admit the current public perspective on homosexuality must change to ensure we can reach a middle ground.

    Beating each other on the heads from both sides of the issue is not constructive.

  25. PiedPiper Avatar
    PiedPiper

    Scout: Neither of your hypothesis holds water. If as you suggested, men become gay due to no male influence in their lives then most men in Barbados would be gay, as it is a fact that there are a huge number of single female run households in Barbados and it has been that way for a very very long time.
    I am quite surprised that you are unaware that there are quite a number of species of animals that engage in same sex activity. Giraffes, goats, chimpanzees, dolphins and penguins, just to name a few animal species that will engage in sexual activity with members of their own sex.
    If you are able to post to this forum, then you are able to do research before putting forth statements that do not hold water or is it just that you do not want your beliefs challenged??

  26. art Avatar
    art

    You know not what you do.

    Condemning some and glorifying others. Now you witness war machines in your sea, and you may well live to regret the decisions and the opinions you think you hold dear to yourself/yourselves in the recent days.

    Leave them alone, Mr blogmaster and Co. Ltd.

    Heal thyself/thyselves. You frateranise in an all-male lodge and think it OK…

  27. CENTIPEDE Avatar
    CENTIPEDE

    Art, Piedpiper, and you other mature contributors… ‘your average Bajan’ has not travelled very far. Hence, living in a goldfish as they do… they count from 1 to 3, quite oblivious that there are other numbers.

    Big frogs in small ponds… that’s the mentality you encounter even among those who declare themselves ‘educated.’

    IT WILL NEVER BE ANY DIFFERENT in small town. At least not in the near future.

  28. CENTIPEDE Avatar
    CENTIPEDE

    that should be — living in a goldfish bowl as they do — sorry for glitch

  29. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @ A Gay Person

    Barbados signed and ratified the International Covenant on Civil and Political rights some time ago and is now in breach of the provisions to end discrimination against homosexuals.

    Professor Mickey Waldron was the man commissioned to complete a study that led to the national consultation on this matter, which would have allowed the State to proceed with the legal provisions to end this discrimination.

    However, there was a decision to have a national consultation on the study, but this was (in my view) botched up by the the National HIV/AIDS Commission, which was charged with conducting the National Consultation. The Commission bluntly refused to allow the Professor to defend his study and simply left people’s imagination to run wild and make all kinds of passionate and emotional statements and pleas that had no bearing on the matter at hand.

    One is left to wonder if this was not a ploy by somebody to ensure that the entire exercise failed. I do not think that the public was made aware of Barbados’ commitment either.

    Where do we go from here?

  30. Enough is Enough Avatar
    Enough is Enough

    Have we not exhausted the homosexual debate on the Veoma Ali threads? We must have because people are repeating themselves. Homosexuality must remain abhored illegal in Barbados. We do not and should not condone that alternative lifesyle for mutiplicity of reasons beginning with God made Adam for Eve not Steve. Most men and women are hetro and are attracted to the opposite sex for procreation and ultimate joy. It baffles the mind how a hard back man can be sexually attracted to another hard back man. Then there are terrifying health reasons with std’s etc.

    Yes homos are human but this minority has to understand that they will be tolerated if they keep their behaviour in their own little community. Homos cannot and will not be allowed to seduce young people into their fold. If they do we must bring the full weight of intolerance and the law down on them.

    It is interesting that all the names called in the VOB/Veoma homo threads were not local from Pardo to same Veoma. We have people coming from morally corrupt countries with their nasty ways leading some of our young people astray.

    I say HELL NO to the legalisation of homosexuality.

  31. Enough is Enough Avatar
    Enough is Enough

    >>third line should read>> abhored and illegal

  32. Cynic Avatar
    Cynic

    To Enough is Enough

    If you want to believe in a literal creationist myth go ahead, but you should be aware that not even the pope believes in literal creationism any more and you only discredit yourself.

    Further more, to push your religious beliefs on to others is no different from the behaviours of the Taliban.

    You site terrifying statistic about STIs. STIs are about promiscuity and that is a different argument about the morality of how some gay people behave, not about being gay itself.

    You have set to show what harm gay people do to anyone.

  33. Cynic Avatar
    Cynic

    Sorry should have been “Yet to show”

  34. A gay person Avatar
    A gay person

    ROK // September 23, 2008 at 9:09 am.

    I am not sure that if it wishes to keep the goodwill of the developed countries that Barbados has any option but to follow their lead.

    I did not know about the Walrond study or the international accord, but I have not lived in Barbados since I went to university overseas aged 19.

    I remember reading that a few years ago in the Canadian newspapers about a gay high school student who wanted to have as his date at the prom at a Roman Catholic school, his male partner. The school, run by the Church 70% of the priesthood of which it has been established is gay, refused. The boy sued the Church – and won. The message was very clear. Don’t try to preempt or usurp matters that are the province of the State. The Church relies on the State for licensing to carry out certain functions like marriage and naming (called baptism). If the state does not sanction your marriage, then legally you are not married. If the state does not register your name, then you are nameless legally. In Canada, I am told, priests have to be licensed INDIVIDUALLY by the state to carry out marriages – this is not a right conferred on them just because they are priests. The upshot of this is that even Roman Catholic priests licensed to carry out marriages in Canada have been able to choose to marry same-sex couples, or have their right to do this enforced by the State. Equally, a lot of these marriages have been in the Churches themselves and the Churches have not raised any objections because the state would almost certainly be forced to sanction and even close them if they did for not obey the law and the terms of their licenses under that law.

    Do I think this is right? Oh yes! No one seems to bother about your sexuality in times of war when troops are needed and you are expected to go and fight and die for your country and a lot of people who, but for the law, would be able to treat you like a sub-human. And tell me the last time anyone in pain and desperately needing medical attention bothered to enquire before that treatment was provided into the sexuality of the medical professional providing it.

    Of enormous concern must be the poor child who realises that their gene pool has rendered them attracted to their own sex only and who has some bible-thumping ignoramouses for parents and who receives no guidance, because they dare not ask for it. The solutions are endless and usually unfortunate. Suicide, drugs and anti-social behaviour can ensue – or at a certain age, they tell the parents to get permanently lost, get on with their lives and sever the connection. I was extremely fortunate in having parents who were supportive and loving. My father has gone now, but my mother still lives and is frankly my favourite person in the world. She seems to like me too, or so she says. But my heart goes out to kids who don’t have that family support. I also had the unqualified support of my siblings.

    Today, there is a higher demand for gay (and I include women in the term “gay”) couples in committed relationships for the adoption of children – especially special-needs children – than heterosexual couples. This because, contrary to some of the opinions expressed in the Barbados blogs, it is only a miniscule fraction of gay people that have a sexual interest in children. For most gay people, if they have any regret, it is that they will not have children. Generally, gay couples have more disposable income than heterosexual couples and equally homosexuals seem to have a greater capacity to deal with children with special needs, whether it be something like Downs Syndrome or severely disabled children. This stands to reason as your average gay couple is only too pleased to have a child of either sex to raise and look after and they are not generally looking for the same status-enhancing criteria as some of the society-approved heterosexual couples. Now this may change as gay becomes less and less of an issue. Or as science makes it possible to produce tailor-made children, Heaven forbid that ever happens as the world would be a very dull place without the differences and surprises that constitute humanity itself – and, of course, all the bible-thumpers would not have their anti-gay pulpit to leap on any longer, because the gene that causes homosexuality would be carefully removed.

    What you say does not suprise me. Politicians are in a hell of a cleft stick on this issue, because of the church lobby in Barbados. The fact that BOTH of the main political parties KNOW that ultimately they have to legalize homosexuality is not important, because each of them knows that whichever does what will have to be done will take a big political hit, so each is praying that the other will do it. Once it is done, however, as it will have to be done, I wonder how many people will be so trusting as to believe that the party in opposition, when it comes to power, will reverse it? They won’t, you know – they will heave a sigh of relief that it was not they that had to do it, complain loudly about the party that has done it so they can grab those votes and then make no changes when they get into office.

    As far as the politicians in Barbados are concerned, one of the fathers of Barbados’ independence was gay and there have been many members of parliament since who have been gay – and we ALL know who they are. But you just watch the homophobes dragging themselves up under these gays, just because they have, at that time, political power. We have all seen that too.

    Where do we go? Nowhere, until the politicians are given no choice at all. I think that is the answer.

  35. David Avatar
    David

    We have uploaded Professor E.R.Walrond 72 page report, Legal, Ethical and Socio-economic Issues relevant to HIV/AIDS for the BU family who would want to have a read.
    For those who don’t want to debate this issue which is a labeled a cul-de-sac one by many, we have to for several reasons. The main one will be the fact that Barbados is a signatory to the international agreement (The United Nations Declaration of Human Rights) which currently holds us in violation. The BU family can start with Article 1 of the UN declaration. The ramifications will be enormous if we don’t sign for. The national consultation is therefore very necessary if we are to treat this matter in the best way as a people. If we want to renege on the agreement and be prepared to suffer the consequences then so be it; but we should discuss it at the national level to ensure we are on the same page on this issue.
    BU thanks, a gay person, for the position explained. You said a lot and we will have another read to digest all that you have written.
     

  36. A gay person Avatar
    A gay person

    Enough is Enough // September 23, 2008 at 9:37 am.

    Oh dear….and this was turning into a reasonable debate. Well, I for one am NOT keeping to any little enclave to suit you. You mess with me or others like me and you, my son, will end up in court and we will do our best to ensure that you know what poverty is all about. Attack us criminally, and I give you my solemn undertaking that when you arrive at Dodds your horizons will be broadened – and before you have the chance to say, “I’m not that kind of girl”, you will be.

    I don’t think you understand. We gays want to play our role in society without our sexuality being an issue – and someone who tries to make our sexality an issue we will march right over. We do not exist on you sufferance. We do not stand in need of your approval or lack of it.

    Finally, in sexual terms, what the hell good do you think a man is (regardless of colour) to either man or woman if he isn’t hard?

  37. Cynic Avatar
    Cynic

    To a gay person –

    I believe Enough is Enough said “hard BACK man.”

  38. Bimbro Avatar
    Bimbro

    To deal effectively, with this subject requires metal of steel which no modern, politician appears to possess thus we’re sentenced to a homosexual world, in the long term!! ‘Thanks very much’, gutless politicians!!

  39. PiedPiper Avatar
    PiedPiper

    Cynic & Centipede: I have lost all interest in further debate on the issue of homosexuality. The vast majority of those who are homophobes are also illiterate and uneducated or illiterate, uneducated and holy rollers who turn to the Bible to explain every little thing to them so that they do not need to educate themselves and use independant thought. When I see the ignorance expressed by some of these people, I can’t be arsed even responding to them. It’s a waste of time.

  40. J Avatar
    J

    A gay person wrote:

    “the Churches themselves and the Churches have not raised any objections because the state would almost certainly be forced to sanction and even close them if they did for not obey the law and the terms of their licenses under that law.”

    This is NOT TRUE. In Canada even though the state grants pastors/priests/rabbis/imam’s the authority to perform marriage ceremonies according to long established custom neither the federal nor provincial governments have or plan to close churches/synagogues/mosques of religious leaders who refuse to perform same-sex ceremonies in their houses of worship; as that would infringe on the constitutional freedom to practice any religion or none.

    It is a GROSS MISUNDERSTANDING to say that any state anywhere in the world plans to compel religious leaders to perform sam-sex religious ceremonies.

    However some religious leaders have CHOSEN to perform such ceremonies, but without any compulsion from the state.

    A sensible understanding of the issue would establish that one constitutional right cannot eliminate another long established constitutional right. So yes in Canada gay people are free to marry, but they are not free to compel a religious leader to perform a marriage ceremony between gay people as such would be an infringement of the religious leader’s right to practice his religion without interference by the state.

    And I am neither pro nor anti gay.

  41. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    David

    A correction here. It is the International Covenant on Civil & Political Rights Sec. 26. This is an extension of the International Declaration of Human Rights:

    Article 26
    All persons are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to the equal protection of the law. In this respect, the law shall prohibit any discrimination and guarantee to all persons equal and effective protection against discrimination on any ground such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

    See the entire covenant here:
    http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/a_ccpr.htm

  42. David Avatar
    David

    Morality differs in every society, and is a convenient term for socially approved habits – Ruth Benedict, PATTERNS OF CULTURE (1934)
    It is obvious when we discuss issues of this type that we have to examine how different cultures clash with the practicing moral codes of the country under discussion. We agree that although it is hard we must keep an open mind on this matter or others like it (morality). In other words because we live in different cultures, different moral codes will be acceptable. What is obvious is the culture of African countries and many Caribbean countries which have a link to Africa find an abhorrence in the homosexual lifestyle. The Church can be used as a barometer to measure what we are saying. It is interesting to make the point that in North America the Episcopalian Church and the wider Anglican Church is still divided on the issue of homosexuality.
    What is clear is that the Barbados government coming very soon will have to rule on this issue. If we are to judge from past decisions i.e the ease with which our Caribbean countries have been swept along in the new world culture (EPA) Barbados will fall in line. We all remember when current leader of the opposition attempted to float this issue when in government there was a groundswell of dissenting voices.
    Like ROK said, where do we go from here?

  43. The scout Avatar
    The scout

    As far as this topic goes, I’ll state my personal position. The very thought of same sex sickens me, I have taken aposition where if I have to deal professionally with a homosexual, I’ll do that but if or when it comes to socialising with them ;no way. Furthemore, if my sons or daughters go that way, they can’t bring their partners at my house. They can live away from my house with whoever they like but not at me. Furthermore those who stay straight is the ones who benefits most from me. This is my position, whether you like it or not is your problem but it would not change my position.

  44. A gay person Avatar
    A gay person

    Well, I can speak with rather more authority than most on what Canada does and does not allow. You see, I was married to my same sex partner in a Roman Catholic Church (Our Lady of Lourdes) in Toronto by a Roman Catholic priest and he explained to me how the state has made it very difficult for any person licensed by it to refuse to marry someone on a discriminatory basis. We travelled to Toronto SPECIFICALLY for that reason. So the freedom of belief that J suggests is SUBSERVIENT to the conditions upon which the license is granted. It is rather like going into a shop and asking to purchase something and being refused on the basis that I am black. The government would shut that shop down by revoking its trading license. Same thing with licenses to perform marriages.

    And why allow marriages in the first place? Good question. There is, of course, the question of equality, but it is more than that. In the early days of HIV and AIDS when it was still a terminal, as opposed to chronic, disease, despite the fact that sufferers had every expectation of death, the paranoia about making wills was still rampant. Same-sex partners who had been living together for many years when one of them died usually found the survivor kicked out of their home with nothing by relatives of the deceased partner who, in many cases, had been excluded for years from the life of the deceased. Now, if they had been heterosexual, there would have been no danger of that. However, the grieving partner was suddenly left destitute by a rapacious (and usually disapproving) family who had contributed not even moral support to the couple.

    We never had this problem as we always made sure our wills were up-to-date, and we still do. In any event, as I have said, I am blessed with my family.

  45. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Sir Bentwood Dick,

    I realy like you man, but tell me, how your name come about. What is it that get bennup?

  46. Wondering Avatar
    Wondering

    It doesn’t really make sense having this kind of discussion as it can never be open and honest.

    Homosexual’s have their opinion and I have mine. Whenever we disagree with their lifestyle our minds are considered poisoned.

  47. me Avatar
    me

    Scout it is sad that you feel that way. I hope for your sake that all around you are 100% straight… so be it. I tell the homosexuals I know to stay away from you!

    My brother while growing up was very homophobic then he moved to the USA where he married and had 4 children. he lievd for sometime in a big city and worked for a large corporation.

    Within one year of living in the USA his views had changed and the reason why was becaused he HAD to encounter out gay people everyday whether as neighbours or as co workers. And after a while he recognised that their sexuality had nothing to do with him.

    Maybe scout you just need to know who around you is homosexual and hwo is not!

  48. J Avatar
    J

    Dear Gay Person:

    You wrote: “You see, I was married to my same sex partner in a Roman Catholic Church (Our Lady of Lourdes) in Toronto by a Roman Catholic priest and he explained to me how the state has made it very difficult for any person licensed by it to refuse to marry someone on a discriminatory basis.”

    I may be more familiar with Canadian law than you believe. The Canadian state has no intention of “shutting down” the churches of those who do not wish to marry gay couples. The state however does have the right to grant or withhold permission to conduct marriage ceremonies. However as you well know weddings are just a small part of what churches do. But to claim that the Canadian government will “shut down churches” if priests do not marry gay couples in a GRAVE MISUNDERSTANDING of Canadian law and custom.

    The priest who married you may well be a priest who is sympathetic to gay people as is his right to be. He may well be a gay priest himself (there are a lot of gay Catholic priests) However if he claimed that he felt that the state would “shut down his church” if he did not marry you he is just a lying priest. I will not have you come on this blog and write bad things about Canada, one of the greatest liberal democracies in the world.

  49. J Avatar
    J

    And Dear Gay Person:

    Do you feel that Canadian imam’s are under the same alledged pressure from the Canadian state to marry gay couples?

    The truth is I am not Catholic and if I went to a Canadian Catholic priest to have him perform my marriage ceremony he can do it; or he can refuse on the grounds that as Catholic priest he wishes to perform marrige ceremonies for Catholics only. For example no Caththolic priest is compelled to marry a Muslim couple. And Muslim imam’s are not compelled to marry Anglican couples; and Jewish rabbis are not compelled to marry Pentacostals. In short no religious leader is compelled to conduct religious ceremonies for people who are not members of that faith.

    You need to spend a bit more time living in Canada to understand the society, its laws and customs. A short visit to marry is not enough.

  50. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    J

    The obvious equivalent is to take away the license to marry from the Priest, not shut down the church. I see what you picked up on but taking away the license does not shut down the church.

    Furthermore, there is always the curt, even if the license is not revoked.

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