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Submitted by Yardbroom

letstalk If recent events are indicative of the public mood, it seems we are afraid of having a “proper debate” about homosexuality in Barbados.  We must address this situation because if we do not, opinions will become hardened and polarized, making it impossible for “understanding” and a meeting of minds.

To have a proper debate, those whom we oppose should be allowed to have their say.  We have not got to agree to a position held to listen to the speaker; it is our right to disagree and disagree we should, if that is our strongly held stance.  However, to personalize the issue by using names to substantiate  our stance is sometimes not productive; we rarely convince others by clubbing them over the head, they may cower in fear, but they will never be convinced of the rightness of our case.

As in some heterosexual relationships, homosexual ones can be challenging, so challenging that one is tempted to ask, where is the love?  Is it beyond us to show some compassion to those relationships we do not understand and cannot agree with?  Is it fair to invoke a religious position to entrench our views?  I do not know.  If the debate is opened it is possible to allow those we have never heard before  express a view.

They will only enter our house if the door is open.

Giving an audience and listening is not necessarily agreeing with what is being said, but it strengthens the reasonableness of our attitude, and gives us time to reflect. Of course there is the alternative view that all such unions are an abomination and are against strongly held religious views and nature, and cannot be reconciled with “good conduct.”   Perhaps we could use the last two words of the last sentence as the “leitmotif” as to the way “we” conduct ourselves in a mature debate about homosexuals in Barbados.

Let us concentrate on the issues not on individuals, if no personal names are used there is  a better  chance  of having an “honest and open debate” with compassion, yet underscored by  strongly held principles.

The door is open we are listening…

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229 responses to “Public Faces, Private Lives: Homosexuality in Barbados”

  1. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    David

    I think that had Professor Waldron been allowed to defend his research, we would not be here now. The debate would have been full, informative and wholesome and I think he would have swung it on the medical evidence alone.

    I am not sure that Barbados has anything to answer as far as legislation decriminalising homosexuality is concerned. Our problem is with attitudes; stigmatisation and discrimination.

    There is nothing on the statute books that incriminates a person for being a homosexual. I think the meaning of gross indecency in law, no longer includes homosexuality. In UK they actually put up the legislation where consenting adults can do as they please. We simply changed the meaning of indecency and effectively that wiped it off the books and I know that the Professor would have pointed it out so the next hurdle to tackle would have been the decriminalisation of prostitution. You write like a lawyer so you should tell me about the legislation.

    Barbados came before the Human Rights Committee last year and coming again this year (Dec). this Government will certainly not have to face the Committee again before the next election. I am not seeing this as a pressing issue from that point of view, but from the view of our fight against HIV/AIDS, the prostitutes now need to be referred to as “Sex Workers” in law.

    The real problem we will be faced with is corporal punishment because whipping men is still on the statute books and corporal punishment in schools and in the home is condoned by the statute. Parents are allowed to punish but not abuse their children and there is no recourse for children who get a beating, so long as the beating was not “unmerciful”.

    Second to that is the death penalty.

  2. David Avatar
    David

    Thanks ROK.

    Recently the AIDS authorities announced that the reported numbers contracting HIV/AIDS not decreasing, something has to give. If it were the private sector somebody would be fired by now. Instead we have the heads of the respective AIDS entities well entrenched.

    We agree with your position that it is unfortunate the debate was allowed to happen with Professor Waldron, perhaps it is not too late.

  3. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    David

    That sounds exciting. Wonder how the Prof. would take that now? I know that he was very hurt by the decision to exclude him from his own work. Must take that up with him.

  4. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    David

    I have to say on hindsight, that any such move will be opposed by the Chair who is still in place.

    I believe though her election as Chair of the Global Fund may be among the reasons why she was retained by the new Government, as her being Chair of NHAC led to her nomination and eventual election as chair of that international body.

    Not sure if she is actually representing Barbados as Chair or if by virtue of her presence, she was elected chair in her own right, that allows Barbados to be elevated. Really can’t remember. Not sure either when that term will expire.

    Funny enough, we can’t even benefit from the fund because Barbados’ Status as a developing nation disqualifies it. We are not poor enough.

  5. David Avatar
    David

    Pity that politics and the need to help the people are not in concert on this one.

  6. Changing Attitudes « Barbados Underground

    […] 28, 2008 · No Comments After reading many of the comments posted to the blog Public Faces, Private Lives: Homosexuality in Barbados the BU household was left to wonder: how can Barbadians change entrenched and irrelevant attitudes […]

  7. Carlos Avatar
    Carlos

    To those who are interested is reading and seeing God’s Amazing Grace, extended in Jesus Christ, go to “WorldNetDaily.com” for the story on “Meet the Arafat sniper who now works for Jesus” and amazing account of a man who ‘….served as a trained assassin for Arafat’s Fata organization in the late 1960s, he admits he hated Christians. If he found a home belonging to followers of Jesus, he would somtimes throw a grenade inside and shoot it up with burst of machine-gun fire.”

    Today, he serves Jesus Christ, the only one that brought true peace, happiness and purpose to his live.

    He had an opportunity shortly before Arafat died, his former boss in Terrorism, to share his conversion to Christ, read it and see what happened.

    By the way, tens upon tens of thousands of Arab Muslims, throughout the Middle East, in China, Russia, Africa, Pakastan, India, are coming to Jesus for salvation, amazing stories, attended with many miracles. Of course the mainstream media are not very interested in this, but its all documented elsewhere, for any honest person to check out, and see what’s really happening.

    Its exactly as Jesus said it would happen, He said:

    “And this gospel of the Kingdom will be preached IN ALL THE WORLD as a witness to ALL nations, and then the end will come.” (Matt. 24:14) emphasis added.

    This is happening at an unprecedented rate, like no other time in history, through Satellite 24/7 to almost every nation, with millions coming to Jesus Christ.

    To those who ‘believe’ no explanation is necessary, to those who DON’T believe no explanation is possible.

    Which side are you on?

  8. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Carlos

    Wonder what that proves? Another Saul turned Paul? Heard it all before.

    Another prophet of doom and gloom. You alright Carlos? What it is you do wrong now? Not all that say Lord! Lord! will enter into the Kingdom, you know.

    Well! Well! Well! You could not hide for too long under objectivity.

  9. Pat Avatar
    Pat

    @ Carlos

    For, as Jesus said, “…I will build My church, and the gates of Hades (Hell) SHALL NOT prevail against it.” (Matt. 16: 18b).

    Really Carlos, did Jesus say that? Or did someone write that he said it, and how many years, and years and years after he had died?

    By the way, The Bible is just a book of tales and myths. Not quite fairy tales, but not far from.

  10. Carlos Avatar
    Carlos

    Keep writing ‘Scoffers’ and ‘Babblers’ if you are still around between now and the next five years, you’ll live to see and witness what this Bible of ‘tales’ and ‘myths’ as you call it, is all about.

    You are going to cry blood, not tears, keep it up!!!

  11. John Doe Avatar
    John Doe

    @ Carlos
    “Keep writing ‘Scoffers’ and ‘Babblers’ if you are still around between now and the next five years, you’ll live to see and witness what this Bible of ‘tales’ and ‘myths’ as you call it, is all about.
    You are going to cry blood, not tears, keep it up!!!”
    *************************************
    Are you for real Carlos?

    Aren’t you supposed to turn de other cheek and pray for us and ask that we be blessed?

    I tell ya!

  12. Carlos Avatar
    Carlos

    John Doe, what I said has no contextual bearing at all, on turning the other cheek or praying for you, and those of your ilk. Like the ‘scoffers’ in Jesus day, hear what ‘He’ had to say to them:

    “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are NOT able to listen to My word.”

    “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the TRUTH,, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a LIE, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell you the TRUTH, you do not believe Me. ”

    “He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear (perceive) because you ARE NOT OF GOD.” (John. 8:42-47). emphasis added.

    These words of Jesus were spoken to the religious ‘big-wigs’ earlier on He said to these same people:

    “Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John. 8:24).

    Now, can Pat and the other scoffers, can you tell me, how the ‘writers’ of the Bible, if they were NOT divinely ‘Inspired’ by God to record His Word, over a period of 1500 years, men from a variety of cultural, educational, and other backgrounds, most of whom did not know each other, write, prophesy, fortell, with such incredible accuracy, events, especially the prophesy from Isaiah, 700 years before the birth of Christ, His suffering, and numerous other matters of historical significance, all absolutly came to pass, confirmed by historical varacity, not just by Biblical accounts, but by those who essentially opposed God?

    This is simply not reasonable, it is just NOT logical, how could ordinary men, without ‘Divine’ inspiration know these utterly amazing things, which are literally unfolding before us day by day, only fools, whose heads are buried in the sand like the proverbial Ostrich, with their ‘feet’ firmly planted in mid-air, would render God’s Word, the Bible as fairy tales and myths.

    No, the real question is: Are you all for real?

  13. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Carlos

    You are behaving like a lay preacher. Nothing of substance, just a blind faith that has no rhyme or reason. I ask you for the meaning of religion and you telling me that religion means religion.

    Who is really for real? Where is this God’s word that you are speaking about? A book compiled with stories written over the span of thousands of years?

    The Bible is merely a chronicled history of the Hebrews and the Jews. This claim of inspiration, where did it come from? Who told you that the Bible was inspired by God? That is a claim made by Christians. So I could write something and claim that I was inspired by God too.

    Many men that ended up in the mad house claimed to be Jesus Christ. You are the one that had better wake up instead of coming here trying to force somebody into your way of thinking.

    Right now you need psychological help and the sooner you realise that the better for your mental health.

    We are all battling this thing even if not together. You are using the cop-out road. I could argue that Marx, Montesque, Kant, Socrates and all these other philosophers and scribes were inspired by God too.

    You ever wonder why God don’t communicate with man in the way that it supposedly happened in the Bible? Life is no different now except with the advances in technology.

    Ask yourself what is a myth? It has been proven that the Bible is not an account but a chronicling of oral history. i could go to sleep and claim that God came to me in my dreams and only because I believe it to be true.

    You here fighting up with others who have different views. This is harrasment, persecution and all those things Christians claim happen to them; you are here doing to us.

    Faith is a personal thing. You don’t know the truth and I don’t know the truth; the blind leading the blind. You don’t even have one good eye so you ain’t even the king in blind man’s land.

    I think you should stop your persecution, it is this kind of persecution that has brought reprisals on christians to cause them to claim persecution. Ever hear about action and reaction? Well you keep persecuting people and scorning them, we will know you by your fruit and right now your fruit is persecution.

    I thank you for calling us fools and I think it takes a fool to know one, so don’t feel so elevated and aloof because you ain’t no different from any one of us.

    If the Bible was the authority you say it is, I don’t think you need to carry on so. Let the Bible speak for itself. Do what you know you should and and let others do the same. Why should I be bombarded with your belief, I am not bombarding you with mine.

    You think you would know Christ if he came back to earth right now? Or would you think he is another Jippy Doyle? I think you need to consult with you Professor Boyd and see if he can help you find a paradise and you won’t have to suffer the pain you are going through now.

  14. Carlos Avatar
    Carlos

    To anyone honestly reading my submissions in a reasonable defense of the Bible and the Christian World view, based on sound evidence, from a number of sources, could not conclude that I’ve persecuted any one, certainly not.

    It was ROK and a few others, in their intellectually blinded ignorance, who tried in vain to refute, what simply by logic, could NOT be refuted, stupidly ‘scoffing’ at God’s Word, the Bible, and who were in fact the ones attempting to persecute me.

    No way man, you can NEVER silence me, only BU has that vested right to censor me, and if they choose to, so be it.

    Absolutely NONE of your diatribe against my submissions, hold any weight whatsoever, but rather, are all empty, vain, nonsense, rambling on and on, with no substance in facts, evidence, nor any logical coherence at all.

    God’s Word, again, speak to people like you, who ‘Scoff’ at Him, not me.

    “In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found (those who Trust and believe in God and His Word) but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understand. Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is near destruction.” (Prov. 10: 13-14).

    As Jesus said:

    “Give not that which is holy unto dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.” (Matt. 7:6).

    Let those who have eyes to see, and ears to hear, use them objectively, in arriving at what has being presented from both sides.

  15. Avatar
    Anonymous

    @ Carlos:

    Matthew 5:10-12 (NKJV) Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 “Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

  16. Avatar
    Anonymous

    @ Carlos

    What sort of Christian you is?

    You should be ready willing and able to be stoned, nailed to cross, get pee throw pon you.

    You like you is a monkey Christian too!

    You should welcome persecution. Then you know that your beliefs are sound.

    Dont go halfway.

    Pack ya tings now and head to Iraq with ya bible and start preaching.

    Shupes!

  17. Avatar
    Anonymous

    @ ROK

    Put Carlos on ignore man.

    He aint even pass de test of his own faith.

    Shupes!

    I still cant believe that people out there still accepting the literalism of the bible.

    Whew! Which century we in again?

  18. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @ Carlos

    I think I am going to heed the advice of Anonymous, especially after you write this:

    ““Give not that which is holy unto dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.” (Matt. 7:6).”

    We are only dogs and swine so save it. Heed the word. Save it!

  19. Avatar
    Anonymous

    lol, lol. Fact: 60% bajan men gay; 30% bi and the remainder confused!

  20. The scout Avatar
    The scout

    Anonymous
    You mentioned three catagories of bajan men and YES, I’m confused. I don’t fit into any of those catagories. Am I not bajan, or is there another catagory for me? I’m as straight as straight can be or ever straighter. I Am a real man and proud of it.Find me another catagory PLEASE.

  21. Avatar
    Anonymous

    To scout
    You have answered your own question.You said it, not me – You are confused, lol. On a more serious note however, it is time that Barbadians be open and honest about talking about homosexuality. Because of our intolerance and ignorance more and more of our young people are contracting hiv at an alarming rate. Since we are not open and honest most “gay” persons are hiding and having sex. That is, whenever the opportunities arise and in such cases they do not think about condom use. These same “gay” men in an attempt to live by society’s (Barbados’s) myopic standards are having sex with females. Hence the growing rate of hiv among women in Barbados also. We need to wake up! I don’t like to get into the religious debate but the film “Hush” seems to announce that the backward way they treated unmarried young women who became pregnant in the past was not the best and Godly way. Since most of Barbadians consider themselves christains and follow the teaching of the church, that it would not be in the far too distance that they influence the public opinion. In so doing, our young gay men and women won’t have to hide and feel bad about being a homosexual, but can feel good about themselves and in so doing make informed decisions about sexuality.

  22. The scout Avatar
    The scout

    Anonymous
    There is a openness of the general public to same sex relationships. Both men and women are boldly making approaches now-a-days. Quite honest with you, I would NEVER accept any of my children coming to me with a “lover” of the same sex.I know fellows who, I heard, are gay and if I have a business deal,I handle it but I keep my distance from such fellows.

  23. Avatar
    Anonymous

    The Scout

    That’s sad. Would you disown your children?

  24. Derek Avatar
    Derek

    I consider myself a Christian in that I refer to the approach suggested by the life of Christ to get me through some of my more difficult choices in life.
    I really could not care if you as an individual are up to par on Deuteronomy, Liviticus or any of the somewhat questionable authoritarian dictates of the Old Testament. I am of the opinion that these histories are only relevant in that they offer insight into the social evolution of a particular ethnic group and bear witness to the disciplining of a very unruly nomadic tribal society whose main interest was in the preservation and strengthening of the tribe.
    I do not believe that the Bible is the unquestionable Word of God.
    To assume that any sacred writings represent an ‘Absolute Truth’ indicates a blinding spiritual pride that does not even bear consideration and in my opinion merely indicates that its’ exponents have only managed to create their God in their own likeness.
    It is to be noted that people like this are almost always incredibly intolerant of others points of view and will seek to discredit any argument based on quotations taken at random from the scriptures to rationalize their biased positions.
    If anyone uses these scriptures to justify their un-loving bigotry to pass judgement on their fellow man I am immediately suspicious of the depth of their true spirituality.
    I am always appalled by people who say things that amount to hateful bigotry and a complete lack of love that is based on fear and social conditioning. Psych.101 demonstrates that to the extent that you are angered by percieved failings in others, it is to that extent that you are fearful of acknowledging the same fault in yourself. Homophobia is a prime example of this syndrome…especially among so called Macho Men.
    If I observe the example set by Jesus I see a man who embraced all people, men and women alike, with an exhortation to love one another.
    He was physically intimate with at least one of his disciples who was able, according to the scripture, to lay his head on Jesus’ breast. He was able to show his fellow men affection.
    I am not pointing this out to suggest that Jesus was gay, but rather to point out his openness to a wide range of loving human expression.
    Jesus was depicted as a very sensual character in that his ministry did not exclude the experience of life in the body but rather he embraced his humanity at every turn…evidenced by the amount of healing and eating and drinking associated with his works.
    The Church all through history since then has sought to deny the body as something sinful and worthy of sacrifice and deserving of suffering. This seems contrary to what Jesus presented by his own life and remarkably demonstrated by the Resurrection.
    I would posit a hypothesis in the light of this observation:
    Is it possible that under the New Dispensation and the Christian exhortation to love our neighbour as ourselves, etc. there moves a new dynamic in total human evolution that brings us to the ideal experience of Universal Love (as demonstrated by Jesus) which does not discriminate on the basis of any physical characteristics, including gender, in which we might feel the openess of heart to love and be loved in return without judgement (and not to judge the love felt by others)?
    This to me would seem to be the highest ideal offered by the Christian faith which could have no part in the call to hatred and rejection so often encountered in the rank and file of religious circles directed against any experience of human love.

    (Please note that I am not advocating the acceptance of any activity that is distorted by abberation or mental sickness or that brings harm to the weak and defenceless.
    I do NOT include homosexuality among this minority group.)

  25. Erin Avatar
    Erin

    to Derek
    Well said.Seeing as Bim is a ‘christian’ country, surely this should be reflective in its society?(love one another)
    Discrimination due to ones sexual orientation is illegal in most developed countries, so why cant we have a reasonable discussion without the uninformed judgements?

  26. Derek Avatar
    Derek

    I sometimes wonder if Christian Fundamentalists-like some of the people in this blog-who use the wonderfully poetic words of the King James Bible to defend their hatred of homosexuality would get rid of their copy/ies of that version if they were to know/accept the fact that King James was a practicing homosexual!
    Often the mote in one’s eye can blind one to Truth…or to put it another way…There are none so blind as those who will not see.
    I cannot see my way to limit ‘God’ to providing only one path on which I might come to know and love and serve him. To believe thus would mean that I am guilty of an immense spiritual pride and to also comdemn any other path to Truth as false. My rational concience will not permit this intractable premise.
    A smidgeon of research into comparitive religions will show scores of historical figures who were revered and aspired to ‘Godhood’ that pre- existed Jesus Christ were identified as The Way, The Truth and The Light, The Lamb of God, The Son of God, and most, if not all, of the appelations given to Jesus. This alone should indicate a need to open one’s mind to greater possibilities and a reworking of acceptance of alternativ opinions.
    There is no place for hatred, bigotry and religious based condemnation in a system that aspires to equality and selfless love for all persons…which is the basis of the fundamental Christian tenets, I believe!
    The Golden Rule seems to be so unreachable an ideal for most of the (so-called) Christians I have seen in action and through the words they use to justify their ‘judgementalism’.
    To ‘choose’ condemnation would be to fall into the the very trap that you as a Christian are warning and exhorting against…as you judge so shall….!!!

  27. Avatar
    Anonymous

    Not only dah. I tell dem hey already dat de apostle paul was a biggggggggg bigggggggg biggggggg buller.
    Dem cant handle dat at all.

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    Boxer Calvin Klein Hombre

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