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Barbados Association Of Professional Engineers And The ABC Highway

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Submitted by BU Family Member

Artist Impression Of The Proposed Flyover At A Roundabout In Barbados

Do the light poles look any different now from those on any section of the highway?

(BAPE said the lightpole bases “looked small” 😉

Does the island in the Belle still look too far out in the road now the road is completed?

(Another BAPE point)

Now that the wells that were planned uphill from the Haggatt Hall area are in place, is there still water “sheeting” across the road?

(BAPE jumped to a wonderful evaluation on an incomplete project)

Now that we STILL have backups at the roundabouts is BAPE willing to admit that flyovers just MAY be warranted?

Its beginning to look more and more like the Barbados Association of Professional Engineers was either

(1) playing politics itself,

(2) being used to further others political ends or

(3) just didn’t know what they were talking about!

Related Link

Owen Arthur Infers Local Barbadian Engineers Are B-Class

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449 responses to “Barbados Association Of Professional Engineers And The ABC Highway”

  1. permres Avatar
    permres

    Exactly, Chris. This is what I meant by my reference to “sin bins”.

    When I came to Barbados permanently in 1996 I was impressed by how motorists on main roads gave way (and they still do) to traffic coming out of side gaps. Then I found that they rarely do this at roundabouts!

    I trust it is not because that the advent of a “modern” roundabout gives leave to a deterioration of age-old kind thoughts and consideration of other road users.

  2. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    But the ABC does nothing to de-congest the feeder roads in and out of Bridgetown, no matter how it is constructed.
    ——————————————-
    I have said (many many times already)
    The freeing up of the ABC highway was not and is not a solution to ALL of Barbados traffic woes but it is a considerable start and you have to start somewhere- the main arterial road is the best place to begin.
    Extensive traffic studies have shown that the majority of traffic is traveling along the ABC highway.

  3. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Have police officers stationed at the roundabouts during rush hours. Have them hand out tickets to anyone who enter into the roundabout and then stop, blocking other traffic trying to pass through the roundabout to a non-congested exit.
    ————————————–
    The police dont give tickets out in Barbados for traffic offences.
    They give summons which take months of time wasting in front of a local magistrate.
    Big fines would provide a great opportunity for low paid and dishonest police officers to make a killing with bribes from traffic offenders.
    And where are the offenders supposed to park when the police are doling out these tickets?
    There is no room on the roads less on the roundabouts
    All it will do is cause greater congestion.
    And a circus of bad tempered motorists and police.
    Great in theory.
    Not in practice

  4. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    When I came to Barbados permanently in 1996 I was impressed by how motorists on main roads gave way (and they still do) to traffic coming out of side gaps. Then I found that they rarely do this at roundabouts!
    ———————————————-
    Hello
    Times have changed 12 years ago there was not the VOLUME of traffic that there is today.

  5. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @ Permres

    Where are you going to put your sin bins?
    You may not have noticed but land is at a premium here.
    Those who come to Barbados from large countries forget that here there is limited space.

    What suits a large country just doesn’t work on a small island.

  6. David Avatar
    David

    ru4real // November 21, 2008 at 7:40 pm (edit)
    @ Permres
    Where are you going to put your sin bins?You may not have noticed but land is at a premium here.Those who come to Barbados from large countries forget that here there is limited space.
    What suits a large country just doesn’t work on a small island.

     
    Which country does the flyover concept originate, big or small?
     

  7. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Better still, improve public transport, restrict access of private cars into urban areas, stagger work times and school times to reduce rush hour congestion.

    So easy, and not very costly.
    ——————————————-
    Excuse me for asking but do you have a job a working wife and several children at different schools?
    If so please tell me how you would work this scheme?

  8. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @David
    Flyovers are used extensively in urban areas where land is at a premium.
    The classic example is Singapore.

  9. David Avatar
    David

    You must be aware that Singapore has a top of the line mass transit system, in other words the traffic solution was a progression from road to flyovers. Also you must know that Singapore has planned the location of its factories, schools, towns to ensure that traffic management is executed with efficiency.

  10. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @ru4real… Why is it that every proposed solution which does not involve $80 million in (importantly) *projected* costs gets rejected by you out of hand?

    I would argue that changing the Laws would be far easier, cheaper and quicker than building fly-overs.

    And with regards to bribes to police officers, how likely is that to be in the middle of a busy (but slow moving) roundabout?

  11. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @ru4real et al… I’m going to assume you’re aware that traffic flow analysis uses the exact same equations and algorithms as fluid dynamics.

    Thus, a simple metaphor might illustrate the problem more clearly: what happens when you have a large pipe flowing into many small pipes, and you quickly place a great deal of fluid (be it a liquid or a gas) into the large pipe? It backs up and/or the pressure increases (less space between particles)…

    The fundamental problem is not the ABC Highway, but rather, it is the small constrained “drains” into Bridgetown and other areas feeding off of the ABC…

    Both roundabouts *AND* fly-overs only work effectively when the exits are clear.

    IMHO, the only thing the fly-overs would achieve would be to back-up the traffic even further along the direction of the major traffic flow.

  12. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    Chris,
    Based on ru4real’s stubborn fixation with flyovers, I have estimated that he suffered a significant personal setback when the ‘overs’ failed to ‘fly’.

    Have you any idea of what the commission would be, had a local ‘facilitator’ succeeded in pulling of this deal?
    Even when the flyover scam fails to solve the problem (as you just easily demonstrated it won’t), they will already have their money and someone convenient to blame – such as ministry officials.

  13. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    LOL…

    man Bush Tea… why wunna doan lef ru4real alone. Clearly de man still at stage 3 in the SARAH grief cycle (Shock, Anger, Rejection, Acceptance, Help).

    Good grief man… show some compassion nuh. 🙂

  14. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    You must be aware that Singapore has a top of the line mass transit system, in other words the traffic solution was a progression from road to flyovers.
    ———————————————–
    The Singapore mass transit system is rail not road.
    They have this in additional to flyovers.

  15. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Also you must know that Singapore has planned the location of its factories, schools, towns to ensure that traffic management is executed with efficiency.
    ————————————————–
    I dont know who told this you this one.
    You have obviously never been to Singapore

  16. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Both roundabouts *AND* fly-overs only work effectively when the exits are clear.
    ———————————————–
    Not an engineer are you?

  17. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    ven when the flyover scam fails to solve the problem (as you just easily demonstrated it won’t), they will already have their money and someone convenient to blame – such as ministry officials.
    —————————————————
    BUSH TEA aka NASH LOVELL ?

  18. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    ru4real: “Not an engineer are you?

    Nope. But come from a family of same. Civil engineers, in fact.

    I grew up reading the periodicals…

  19. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Someone will get the blame.

    There are no flyovers but there is still a traffic problem.

    Not a single practical workable suggestion has been mooted here to solve it.

    The collective wisdom of BAPE has not come up with a better solution.

    So what to do?
    use emotive words ie scam/ facilitator blah blah blah

    A sad and feeble attempt by those responsible for the sabotage of a government project to divert blame away from themselves.

  20. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Chris
    ru4real: “Not an engineer are you?

    Nope. But come from a family of same. Civil engineers, in fact.

    I grew up reading the periodicals…
    ——————————————–

    Right thats fine then
    You grew up reading the periodicals
    Which ones Beano and Dandy?

  21. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @ru4rea… Your position is crystal clear.

    Transparent, even….

  22. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Transparency is what its all about Chris
    The PM says so.

  23. MME Avatar
    MME

    ru4real posting in style and frequency of WIV. What become of WIV? He did say he enjoyed China dont think he stayed though. Wait a minute ru4real dont tell me you are WIV doing the Mascoll grasshop?

  24. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    I just want to point out that the “MME” above is not me.

  25. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @Micro Mind Engineer

    When asked a few days ago (in connection with road widening) about the number of flyovers proposed, you replied that you believed it was five.

    Are we supposed to believe that you didn’t know that eight were proposed from the outset?
    ———————————————-
    Believe what you like
    Eight were NOT proposed
    (See post by Andrew Hutchison.)

    As to your other points
    They are the usual libels put out by BAPE. and those who have their own political agenda .

    The public is not that gullible MME.

  26. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    ru4real,

    Dah is the best you could come up wid after more than seven hours to settle yuh head and think through a reasoned response? LOL

    Check every early press statement from 3S and Government, starting with the former PM’s budget announcement in 2005 (the first time the project was announced publicly)… EIGHT flyovers buddy… the links to these statements are all here on this blog if you’re interested in the truth… if that en good enough for you, check 3S ‘clear-the-air’ statement issued TWO days ago “… eight flyovers, originally priced at about $79 million with a total projected cost of over $119 million in 2005…”. Get your facts straight. LOL

    The number of flyovers only start to decline when the blogs and the public start asking hard questions… then it was “well…. ughh…. we en sure how many yet”, then it was “umm… we will build five”, finally it was “None. You’re fired!”

    On August 23, 2008 at 11:17 am on this thread, Brutus asked you: “ru4real, are you saying that 3S’s only contribution was supervision of the project? All of the work, including the design, was done by subcontractors? How much did 3S earn for this?”

    On August 23, 2008 at 12:59 pm on this thread, this was your response to him: “Brutus the designs were done by the contractors 3S.”

    Again I ask… ru4dishonesty or ru4ignorance?

    Were you not aware that 3S subcontracted ALL of the road design work to Stantec and ALL of the flyover design work to the US based SAI Consulting Engineers?

    ROFL… like one of my favorite authors once said, “The discipline of the written word punishes both stupidity and dishonesty”.

    Look… you better stick to defending Lord Nelson yuh… although, truth be told, you en making much sense on that issue nider.

  27. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    … one more ‘ting ru4real. You refuse to answer the other questions that have been repeatedly posed to you by me, and countless others, on this blog, dismissing them as libelous… LOL

    I like I gine have to set the BU sharks (BWWR and Pat) pun you yuh. 🙂

    Here they are again, just in case you decide to reconsider your position:
    Do you support the award of a multi-million dollar project (1) without a PRIOR feasibility study by an INDEPENDENT consultant, (2) without a due-diligence check on the consultant/contractor, (3) on the basis of a memorandum-of-understanding, (4) to a firm without a single registered engineer among its five employees, (5) without going through a tendering process?

  28. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    MME

    I always know when I have hit home when the BAPE rep starts to come out with the same old libels and ignores the truth.
    Have BAPE been diligently checking out other projects – ones that prefer to use imported labour from China for example?

    Have they forgotton the main beneficiarys of the ABC highway project?
    Two local companies COW williams and Rayside who employ all local Bajan workers.
    Have they been diligently checking out why the Brittains Hill disaster happened and the local contractors ( no doubt all members of BAPE ) .
    No silent as the grave.

    As the BAPE representative you will know that BAPE couldnt give a monkeys about diligent anything all they are concerned about was and is how much they are going to get out of it.

    Smearing others and blame is the time honoured Bajan way.

    There is no company on theis island who has the expertise or capability to pull together a major and innovative project such as the ABC highway project.

    Lets face it most construction companies expertise here is shoving up ugly condominiums for maximin profit and to hell with the public.

    They have no problem in bringing in foreign labour for expertise and reliability.

    But a project that benefits the greater good of the population is dissected and libeled simply because it was a project of the previous administration .

    MME you have not one shred of proof to support your libelous accusations and nor does BAPE .

    All is done on the anominity of a biased blog as otherwise as you are well aware you would be sued up hill and downhill for libel.

  29. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @ru4real: “But a project that benefits the greater good of the population is dissected and libeled simply because it was a project of the previous administration.

    Not true. It is dissected because many believe (with good reason) that it *won’t* benefit the greater good.

  30. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @ru4real: “But a project that benefits the greater good of the population is dissected and libeled simply because it was a project of the previous administration.

    Not true. It is dissected because many believe (with good reason) that it *won’t* benefit the greater good.

  31. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    Double-post weirdness… David, did the second post come from the same IP? Does it have my “hidden” e-mail address?

  32. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Not true. It is dissected because many believe (with good reason) that it *won’t* benefit the greater good.
    ———————————————-

    In a recent poll 55% of the public voted in favour of the overpasses.

    There is no ‘good reason’ there to denigrate a project that will ease the traffic problems of almost the entire population.

    It is simply an unnecessary political move.

    How does building superluxury villas for foreigners by foreigners benefit the greater good?

    A few will get jobs as maids and gardeners.

    The major benefit ie profit will go to the developers.

    Hospitals ,roads,prisons ie public works definitely way down on the list of importance.

  33. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @ru4real… you have a very annoying debating style… Ignore any logical argument against your position, and continue to present irrational (and distracting) arguments which do…

    @ru4real: “In a recent poll 55% of the public voted in favour of the overpasses.”

    How “scientific” was this poll? What (exactly) was the question asked? Who ran this poll? Did the entire population “vote”? If not, how many did? Were the respondents representative? What was the margin of error? How many times out of how many?

    @ru4real: “There is no ‘good reason’ there to denigrate a project that will ease the traffic problems of almost the entire population.

    Earth to ru4real… Come in please! Earth to ru4real… Do you read us?

    As has (I think) been clearly shown on this single BLOG, the “flyovers” will *NOT* “ease the traffic problems for almost the entire population”.

    If you disagree with this (as you obviously do), then why don’t you present a peer-reviewable “time-and-motion” traffic analysis study showing that the economic “upside” of the $80 million in capital works (along with the additional lost-productivity costs during construction) is greater than said costs? (Over, let’s say, 25 years.)

    Those arguing against the fly-overs are not being dogmatic — we’re simply wanting some reasonable (and agreeable) scientific justification for this project.

    Because, frankly, anyone who can model dynamic systems in their head can see that the fly-overs won’t do a damn thing to help “almost the entire population”…

  34. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    As has (I think) been clearly shown on this single BLOG, the “flyovers” will *NOT* “ease the traffic problems for almost the entire population”.
    ___________________________

    Unfortunately you have clearly shown no such thing
    ————————————————
    then why don’t you present a peer-reviewable “time-and-motion” traffic analysis study showing that the economic “upside” of the $80 million in capital works (along with the additional lost-productivity costs during construction) is greater than said costs? (Over, let’s say, 25 years.)
    ——————————————-
    Extensive traffic studies were done prior to construction that showed conclusively that man hours lost/ fuel usage ‘ through stop and start driving and every other factor that you would want to know.
    Apply to MPT they have them all.

    Anyone who has a bit of common sense in their heads know very well and sits in a traffic jam everyday on their way to work or school know perfectly well that flyovers are the solution.

  35. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @ru4real: “Apply to MPT they have them all.

    I see your challenge, and I raise you a request for same…

    I just spent the last 20 minutes on the phone to MPT, being bounced around (and, to their credit, was only dropped once). The “holder” of the studies is not in office. I’ve left my contact details for a return call.

    I’ve also been told that the raw data *might* be available to the public, “for a fee”, but that “does not include the analysis”. I will be submitting a request for the raw data.

    I will let you all know what transpires…

  36. Fairplay Avatar
    Fairplay

    I would be very surprised if the Ministry gave an answer to this at all .

  37. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @All… So, I just received a call back from MPT.

    In fairness to the people involved, I won’t share the name of the individual from MPT who returned my call. I was very honest and up front with the reason for the inquiry — “there is a debate ongoing on the BU Blog on this matter, and I was told that I could request and receive the analysis”.

    I was told that the person I had been directed to (by three different MPT employees) (and to whom I was speaking) did *not* have the report, and they did not think such information would be available to the public.

    (I did *not* bring up the matter of the proposed FOI Act.)

    The individual was very forthright, and gave me some of the background on how such a study would be conducted (read: the assumptions which would have been made).

    @ru4real: perhaps you have better knowledge and connections at MPT than I (as a “cold-caller”) have, and could request and provide us with the analysis which you say has been conducted and proves that fly-overs are a net benefit?

    (ROLFL….)

  38. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @All… Oh, I forgot something important…

    The individual from MPT I was speaking to did *not* know if such a study had been conducted (and had not seen it themselves). They only knew that *if* one had been done, who would have been involved and the base assumptions which might have been made…

  39. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @Chris

    LOL

    It sounds like the three wise monkeys

    I am trying to imagine the scenario

    Guy at MPT ( hand over phone)
    Hey boss There some fella here wants to know about the traffic study and all that what do I tell him?

    Is he a lawyer?

    Well he didnt ask me to pay for taking the call……….

    Tell him there’s a fee that gunna put him right off.

    Hes says hes still wanna know?

    Tell him thats none of his ***** business – no wait tell him it aint available to the public.

    No wait that would be telling him we have one, No tell him we dont have any
    and if we did its wasnt us all it was Frank/Nash/Dave who is dealing with that crap.And they have gone to lunch/ a funeral/off island/ .And anyway we lost it even if they were here………….

    MPT Guy

    Sorry to keep you Sir the holder of the studies is not in the office…………..

  40. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @ru4real… Did *YOU* not tell us all here that the MPT have done studies which supported *your* arguments?

    Please, with respect, provide same to us. Or shut the h311 up!

    Based on what I was told today (from those that *know*), there is no point in continuing this discussion with you…

    The flyovers are dead… (Thank Gods!)

    Deal with it!

  41. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    Gosh Chris…..ya tight, ya call he bluff.
    Is you a poker player?

  42. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Chris

    I said they had them and wunna ask for them I never said they would give ’em to you!
    Man you think them MPT people gunna give you all the stuff to prove them liars?
    As a detective your the pits so dont give up the day job.

  43. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Chris I never said that MPT had ‘done’ studies .

    I said that they had studies.

    There is a difference.

  44. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Quote from Andrew Hutchinson

    ‘He explained that the traffic studies, which were conducted IN ADVANCE OF CONSTRUCTION WORK, showed that approximately 70 per cent of the motorists on the highway were going straight through and the flyovers were designed to separate those motorists and to reduce congestion etc etc’

  45. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @All… Please note that at this point I am simply amusing my sorry ass… (Or, as they say in England, “taking the p1ss”.)

    @ru4real… Please explain to us ignorant individuals: just who 1s Andrew Hutchinson.

    And, again, may I please request copies of the traffic studies conducted, which were conducted IN ADVANCE OF CONSTRUCTION WORK?

    Please trust me when I tell you that I’m more than comfortable dealing with raw data sets….

  46. Avatar
    Anonymous

    There is no company on theis island who has the expertise or capability to pull together a major and innovative project such as the ABC highway project.
    ……………………………………………………….
    I was avoiding any submissions to the blogs, but the amount of rhetoric espoused by you makes me believe that you certainly cannot be 4real. It sedems to me that you have some sort of connections to this highway project with regards to flyovers and you are marketing, selling, influencing people to buy the flyovers story.

    It can’t work in babadus and thath’s the story 4real.

    If 3s with 5 employees, opened for less than 1 month; and the head who was responsible for marketing at Mahbey could win a contract for millions of dollars and you comparing them with a successful company like COW with years of experience. You could be only talking tripe,.. RU4REAL?

  47. Chris Halsall Avatar
    Chris Halsall

    @Technician: “Is you a poker player?

    No. I’m simply a profoundly stupid fool…

    I haven’t yet gone past the three year old in me, which keeps asking “why”? (Why? Why? Why?)

    Despite my years, I’ve found that “the adults” can’t seem to answer the simple question “Why?”

    And so I keep asking it: Why?

    And “they” keep not being able to answer it….

    You’d think we’d be past this, wouldn’t you?

  48. Tell me Why Avatar
    Tell me Why

    Anonymous // November 24, 2008 at 5:26 pm
    ………………………………………………………
    That’s my post.

  49. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Hello Victor

    (COW’s self appointed marketing and PR manager.)

    COWilliams construction is undoubtedly one of the best companies in Barbados.
    But they have limited expertise in the advanced field of overpasses.
    In fact they have none.
    And the other companies are even less experienced
    3S were working in the capacity of consultants dont you understand?
    You dont need vast amounts of consultants and indeed the only 5 people is yet another lie put out by the DLP media.
    In fact the team was larger that this and employed other visiting consultants in the field of traffic management.

    The 3S team are all very highly qualified professionals in their field and have ample international experience.
    Technology moves on Victor and work on a small island just does not provide all the work involving advanced techniques.

    If you were having Brain surgery you wouldnt want just any old Dr to do it would you?
    So suppose there was no Brain Surgeon in Barbados and a team of visiting surgeons flew in.
    Would you object to the surgery on the grounds that they had not been in Barbados since the year dot?

    This is small island mentality and an reason for all this foolishness in the first place.

  50. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Chris
    You ahve come late to this discussion and have not read the whole thread.

    Engineer believes flyovers still necessary

    10/28/2008

    By Nicholas Cox

    THE construction of five flyovers along the ABC Highway should be carried out in order to alleviate the traffic congestion that is still being experienced at roundabouts.

    This is according to the engineer responsible for designing the Highway Expansion Project, Managing Principal at Stantec Inc., Andrew Hutchinson, who believes that the flyovers will and should be built in the future. “People are already beginning to realise that even with the wider highway, there’s still a bottleneck at the roundabouts,” Hutchinson told The Barbados Advocate last week.

    He explained that the traffic studies, which were conducted in advance of construction work, showed that approximately 70 per cent of the motorists on the highway were going straight through and the flyovers were designed to separate those motorists and to reduce congestion etc etc

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