Difficult Conversations – What Would We Do?
Submitted by Grenville Phillips II
We have been asked how we would have responded to COVID-19. We provided our best advice about one year ago, but the Government rejected it at that time. Given the foreseen nightmare scenario, they should reconsider – for all our sakes.
In the past 15 days, we had 15 new deaths. In the previous 15 days, we had 7. In the previous 15, we had none, as shown in the attached graph. This wave of deaths appears to have started after the UK variant arrived in Barbados.
On 3 March 2021, we can expect a total of 44 deaths if the growth rate is linear, or 59 if it is exponential. If the growth is exponential, as the data suggests, then we can expect a total of over 100 deaths by 18 March 2021. The assumed growth rate may be verified on 3 March 2021.
GOOD MANAGEMENT.
The only way to avoid the nightmare exponential growth scenario, is to manage all aspects of the COVID-19 response well. We cannot risk using our home-grown management methods to manage this pandemic anymore. Those methods have consistently failed us over the past 50 years.
When our management systems failed, the normal consequences were being forced to pay higher taxes, to wait longer for declining standards of service. There were blips of improvement, but that only lasted until the quality employee was seen as a threat, and was made redundant.
Bad management only appears to work if there are few customers and products. Once the number of customers and products increases, the system normally fails. When it fails, the only thing left is public relations to give sorry excuses. If the public relations is effective, the customers will blame themselves.
GOOD ADVICE.
It seems that we must comply with the WHO and PAHO requirements to receive their assistance. Therefore, we must keep our borders open. However, we should mandate that all visitors to Barbados must be properly quarantined at authorised facilities, for 14 days – no exceptions.
We should manage the: air and sea ports, transportation to quarantine facilities, quarantine facilities, QEH and other health clinics, isolation facility at Harrison point, contact tracing, and the Best Dos Santos lab, to ISO 9001 principles. Even at this late stage, all of that can still be accomplished within 2 weeks.
REJECTING AN INTERNATIONAL STANDARD.
For some strange reason, the Government rejected the international management standard when I first recommended it about 17 years ago. I since repeatedly offered to implement it in all statutory corporations in Barbados, free of cost. But no takers.
About 3 years ago, all statutory corporation CEOs were invited to a free public workshop on implementing the standard. They were guaranteed that following the training, they would be capable of implementing the ISO 9001 principles the following day. Not a single CEO attended. The Government has since publicly trashed the international standard – for political reasons.
NOT HAPPENING.
Based on my 17 years of active efforts, I do not expect the Government to consider the desperately needed international management standard at this time. Especially since it is designed to delight customers with exceptional service, and eliminate corruption. We simply cannot reject our 50-year cultural traditions so easily. That is not who we are.
The weakness of our management system is evident, with over 30 unnecessary deaths. Yet, we persist with it, and continue to reject the obvious solution. Instead of surrendering our pride, retreating from what is not working, and embracing what will, we are encouraged to stay the course – to foreseen destruction.
LETTER FROM THE FUTURE.
I expect the Government will finally see the light in May 2021. That is when the total forecasted deaths from exponential growth exceed 1,000, and we should get a scathing rebuke from the WHO for our politically motivated stubbornness.
At that time, we would wish that we could go back in time to this point, and change-course to avoid the foreseen and likely nightmare. Well, think of this as a letter from the future, encouraging us to do just that.
Grenville Phillips II is a Chartered Structural Engineer. He can be reached at NextParty246@gmail.com
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RE We cannot risk using our home-grown management methods to manage this pandemic anymore. Those methods have consistently failed us over the past 50 years.
ABSOLUTE RUBBISH
UNDER SIR MAURICE BYER, VAUGHN WELLS ETC WE HAD VERY GOOD PUBLIC HEALTH CARE
WE OUGHT TO LISTEN TO THE home-grown management methods to manage this pandemic ADVANCED BY DR E O DOUGHLIN RATHER THAN THE IMPORTED RUBBISH FROM DR FALSY AND THE WHO WHICH IS LED BY A NON DR. THEN WE WILL DO MUCH BETTER
GRENVILLE YOU ARE AGAIN OUT OF YOUR LEAGUE HERE. YOU PROBABLY MEAN WELL BUT PLEASE STAY IN YOUR LANE
RE The weakness of our management system is evident, with over 30 unnecessary deaths.
WHAT ARE UNNECESSARY DEATHS?
HOW DOES 30 DEATHS MAKE OUR MANAGEMENT SYSTEM WEAK.?
PLEASE KINDLY EXPLAIN FROM YOUR VAST EXPERIENCE IN THE PRACTICE OF MEDICINE AND YOUR EXTENSIVE KNOWLEDGE OF PUBLIC HEALTH GENERALLY AND THE HISTORY OF PUBLIC HEALTH IN BARBADOS
RE Based on my 17 years of active efforts, ……..IN WHAT? MEDICINE? PUBLIC HEATH MATTERS?
IF YOUR ANSWER IS NO YOU SHOULD SHUT UP
WE HAVE BASICALLY DONE WELL SO FAR….DUE MAINLY TO BEING A WIND SWEPT LITTLE ISLAND BUT THERE ARE A FEW MORE THINGS THAT WE CAN DO TO IMPROVE
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Hi GP:
We have been calling for a 14-day quarantine period, and effective management of the quarantine facilities. That alone would have prevented the current spread.
We have qualified medical personnel. We have working equipment. We simply need to manage them properly.
A good management system can accommodate foreseen shocks. A bad management system fails during such events. In a pandemic, with potential fatal consequences, good management is critical.
Why is the Best Dos Santos lab failing so often? Why are the quarantine facilities failing so often? The obvious solution is better management.
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Why is the Best Dos Santos lab failing so often?
I DONT KNOW IF AND HOW THEY ARE FAILING
AND I DONT KNOW WHAT METHODS THEY ARE USING FOR THEIR VIRAL STUDIES
WE USED IN TIMES PAST TO SEND OUR VIRUS STUDIES TO TRINIDAD
IF WE ARE DOING THEM IN BIM NOW, THAT IS GOOD AND A GREAT IMPROVEMENT
I DONT KNOW IF THE STAFF LEVELS ARE ADEQUATE
BUT I DO KNOW THAT VIRAL STUDIES IS MORE TIME CONSUMING THAN BACTERIAL STUDIES
HAVE YOU CONSIDERED OR KNOW THE ANSWER TO ANY OF THE ABOVE?
RE A good management system can accommodate foreseen shocks. A bad management system fails during such events
IN THEORY ONLY
YOU OBVIOUSLY KNOW NO MICROBIOLOGY AT ALL
MICROBIAL TESTS REQUIRE TIME …………THAT IS TIME FOR THE MICROBES TO REPLICATE AND GROW
THIS TIME CANNOT BE MANAGED BY LABORATORY PERSONNEL
. In a pandemic, with potential fatal consequences, good management is critical.
GOOD MANAGEMENT IS ALWAYS CRITICAL………..BUT IS MANAGEMENT THE PROBLEM HERE?
YOU CAN MANAGE THE FACILITIES, THE ACQUISITION OF REAGENTS AND THE PERSONNEL…….BUT YOU CAN NOT MANAGE the growth rate constant OR the mean generation (doubling) time OR OTHER IMPORTANT PARAMETERS FOR MICROBIAL GROWTH USED TO DETERMINE PRESENCE OR ABSENCE OF MICROBES.
PERHAPS YOU CAN TEACH THE LAB TECHNICIANS HOW TO DO THAT
.
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“I expect the Government will finally see the light in May 2021. That is when the total forecasted deaths from exponential growth exceed 1,000″…
At least you have the sense to say “forecasted” deaths. I expect the actual number of deaths to be nowhere in that region.
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The good thing about Barbados is 30-40-50.. deaths still seem high
but these are small compared to other countries daily death rates
we have heard the same crap over and over
The trump nuts talk about hydroxychloroquine
but trump still caught it + tests say it has small benefits
and has reached the end of the line for use for covid
same people boast they know more than everyone else
when medical field say they do not know what is happening
the problems are not just about spread of virus / breathing in and out
but how respiratory system / oxygenation in blood / organs fail to function
the whack jobs keep posting nonsense
which is in tune with grenville’s posts
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The only thing there I agree with is the quarantine period. Everything else is rubbish.
Countries that have international standards up the wazoo have all been slammed by Covid. Italy, France, USA, UK.
Stupse.
Thirty deaths for Barbados is very sad for the families, but for the country, not a large number. Will there be one thousand soon as your extrapolating of the graph, based on current trends? We do not know.
But it will not due to ISO. The biggest two issues are probably medical resources and for Bajans to listen to the officials, instead of doing as dum like.
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Crate Diggers 2021 Deep House
While in Lockdown
Ease Ya Mind
(Mango Boys Dub)
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(Quote):
At least you have the sense to say “forecasted” deaths. I expect the actual number of deaths to be nowhere in that region. (Unquote).
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Another fortune teller, like the GP ‘know-it-all’ No.2, also looked into the same crystal ball (in the Sky) and has projected that the rate of infection along with any resulting deaths of those ‘chronically challenged’ with co-morbidities shall also ‘increasingly’ Decline after the 20th March and could, in all probabilities after 202nd September, reverse direction; unless stopped in its man-modified deadly Chinese-whispering tracks by another man-made vaccine called the ‘Covid-19 Counter’.
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RE Another fortune teller, like the GP ‘know-it-all’ No.2, also looked into the same crystal ball (in the Sky) and has projected that the rate of infection along with any resulting deaths of those ‘chronically challenged’ with co-morbidities shall also ‘increasingly’ Decline after the 20th March and could, in all probabilities after 202nd September, reverse direction; unless stopped in its man-modified deadly Chinese-whispering tracks by another man-made vaccine called the ‘Covid-19 Counter’.
PLEASE KINDLY NOTE THAT I HAVE MADE NO PREDICTIONS ABOUT EITHER the rate of infection OR ABOUT resulting deaths of those ‘chronically challenged’ with co-morbidities DUE TO COVID 19
PLEASE KINDLY NOTE THAT I AM NOT A FORTUNE TELLER, OR A KNOW IT ALL NOR DO I CONSULT ANY CRYSTAL BALL
HOWEVER AS A SOUND STUDENT OF THE SCRIPTURES IT IS CLEAR THAT COVID 19 IS ONE OF THE PLAGUES IN THE BIRTH PANG SIGNS THAT JESUS IN THE OLIVET DISCOURSE IN MATTHEW 24 V 7 PREDICTED WOULD PRECEDE HIS EPHIPHANEA………NOT THE RAPTURE: THERE ARE NO SIGNS FOR THE RAPTURE WHICH IS SAID TO COME SUDDENLY LIKE A THIEF IN THE NIGHT
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“unless stopped in its man-modified deadly Chinese-whispering tracks by another man-made vaccine called the ‘Covid-19 Counter’.”
you may have inadvertently hit the nail on the head and cracked the case holmes… President George Clinton of Funkadelic Parliament fame had a wild and funky musical excursion through the inner workings of the corrupt modern American medical machine with some song lyrics that said “I’m Gon Make U Sick O’Me … and then I gon give you the antidote..”. The virus and mutations and sicknesses all happened in countries where they have bio-labs that specialise in biowarfare and fit and strong soldiers and navy personnel have been spreading it worldwide in military execises. The world has been int PNAC non stop war aka WWIII on a slow burn since 2000 with MIC WMDs / Drones / Regime Changes / local mercenaries / black ops / psyops / propaganda but it isn’t even covered in news much and nobody cares or is moved to do anything about it to stop it as all these wars are waged abroad and not at home by the west and classified top secret where it is neither confirmed or denied. There is so much shit happening no one knows who is doing what and everyone is watching everyone watching everyone and everyone is blaming the other one to cover up their own crimes to humanity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tWGU00u8uU
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Extrapolations)projections should be done with care. There is more to them than plugging a number in a formula or drawing a straight line.
An easy read. The third graph is something we should think of.
https://life.solventuregroup.com/2020/05/27/limitations-of-forecasting-techniques/
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The fuckwit doctor is predicting the end of the world in 2021 based on analysis of secret code found in Israel texts, but he doesn’t realise that the prophecies are warnings to avoid wickedness and USA, Israel, Uk are satanists that are following the script. They are after one man the son of man so they can rule the world in dominion. It is alleged they have been working with grays aliens for their tech
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I believe that given a small population we will soon see a drop-off in the number of new cases.
This belief does not even take the introduction/effect of vaccines into consideration.
If Mia can keep it together, enforce the rules fairly, vaccinate her people, preach hand washing, social distancing and masking, then at some time in the future she will be considered a genius.
Previously, I was betting that she could win both the risky short game and the long game. I have given up on the short game …. the long game favors her.
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THEO
MIA IS NO GENIUS. SHE IS A COPIER
THE FACT THAT WE HAVE ABUNDANT SUNLIGHT THAT CONVERTS THE CHOLESTEROL IN OUR SKINS TO THE
CO-ENZYME VITAMIN D IS THE MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR TO ANY SUCCESS THAT WE HAVE ACHIEVED.
IN ADDITION TO THE FACT THAT THE VIRUS HAD/HAS TO BE BROUGHT IN
VIT D HAS NO DOUBT BEEN AT THE FORE IN COUNTERACTING CELLULAR PATHOPHYSIOLOGY IN MANY WHO HAVE BEEN EXPOSED TO THE VIRUS, BUT HAVE HAD NO, OR VERY MILD SYMPTOMS
MANY PERSONS HAVE CONTRACTED THE VIRUS WHO WERE ENGAGED IN hand washing, social distancing and masking AND LOCKDOWN,
I DID ALL OF THE ABOVE AND STILL GOT THE VIRUS
VIT D QUININE HEAVY METAL IONS KEPT THE SYMPTOMS IN ABEYANCE UNTIL MY FINAL INTERVENTION WITH TETRACYCLINE WHEN THE SYMPTOMS FLARED UP FOR 8 HOURS
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Someone better tell that Doctor Cunt Finger that no one is talking to him they are just talking about him
That man is a ghost a dead man walking with circa 364 days left to go tops maxi maxi maximum
When people brag and boast the most that they were the best top student in their class when they were at school it means they were a massive failure in life as they are not people people and everyone hates them with a passion in a style and fashion that cannot be rationed
It’s a Man’s Man’s Man’s World
But it wouldn’t be nothing, nothing without a woman or a girl
Birds of Prey
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https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality
“the bars in the chart below show the number of deaths either per 100 confirmed cases (observed case-fatality ratio) or per 100,000 population (this represents a country’s general population”
Let’s out ourselves in the same category as the US and for ease of calculation 2 (2%) deaths in every 100 cases. To see 1,000 deaths in Barbados then we would expect to observe 50,000 cases. Is this number realistic?
Fearmongering……
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@ GP February 20, 2021 4:55 PM
“PLEASE KINDLY NOTE THAT I AM NOT A FORTUNE TELLER, OR A KNOW IT ALL NOR DO I CONSULT ANY CRYSTAL BALL
HOWEVER AS A SOUND STUDENT OF THE SCRIPTURES IT IS CLEAR THAT COVID 19 IS ONE OF THE PLAGUES IN THE BIRTH PANG SIGNS THAT JESUS IN THE OLIVET DISCOURSE IN MATTHEW 24 V 7 PREDICTED WOULD PRECEDE HIS EPHIPHANEA………NOT THE RAPTURE: THERE ARE NO SIGNS FOR THE RAPTURE WHICH IS SAID TO COME SUDDENLY LIKE A THIEF IN THE NIGHT..”
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Dear Madman No.1, no one is fingering you on this occasion for being a “fortune teller” although you can be a bigger bogus story teller.
It is the other “GP” the Second in material riches who is doing the fortune telling on this occasion.
As for your Olivet Discourse on the prediction of the coming plagues and the subsequent Rapture as the Earth spins at 67K mph around the Sun what do you think the bogus book of revelation is all about other than the psychotic imaginings of some closeted homosexual hermit of a monk hooked on some hallucinogenic substance and in need of some outlet for his built-up sexual frustrations?
You lot of bogus conmen cannot even account for the events which took place during the major half of the life of the same Jesus Christ (from the chronological age of 12 to 30 on the esoteric calendar of alchemy) yet you want to peddle the bullshit that the man was the only son of some god who, it appears, must have sent him off to a real university in the East to study Buddhism whose teachings were clearly at odds with Judaism.
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“what do you think the bogus book of revelation is all about other than the psychotic imaginings of some closeted homosexual hermit of a monk hooked on some hallucinogenic substance and in need of some outlet for his built-up sexual frustrations?”
Just as plausible as divine inspiration.
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It used to be said that all roads lead to Rome. Now all solutions shall lead to ISO 9001. I would not be surprised if our ISO Taliban also wants to subject the reproductive behaviour of our people to ISO 9001. Some worship Sharia, our local Taliban ISO 9001.
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“a monk hooked on some hallucinogenic substance and in need of some outlet “
Perhaps he used to be fucked up on drugs but then became fucked up on God
George Bush and Tony Blair said they both spoke to God for his advice whether to invade Iraq but probably called the wrong number
When blacks like GP say they believe in God, whites will suddenly say they don’t believe in that crap
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I am still not convinced that many of the “COVID” deaths are not due to the epidemic of NCD’s in Barbados.
I think people are more likely dying with COVID and not from it!!
If I told you the three lines in the graph below represent the death rates for Barbados and 2 other countries, USA and UK, up to 2018, which one would you say is Barbados, which one the US and which one the UK?
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The period is from 1960 to 2018, pre covid.
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Not much to choose among the 3 countries in 2018.
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8.6, 9 and 9.3 per 1000 in 2018.
Average say 9.
So lets say Barbados had a death rate of 9 persons per 1,000 in 2018.
Then if we approximate the population to 300K in 2018 then there were about 2,700 deaths back then.
Since there is a rising trend, then we can expect there will be more than 2,700 deaths in 2020 and 2021.
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I won’t keep you in suspense, here is the answer.
Barbados is the country out of the three which had the lowest death rate in 1997, 7.468 per 1,000.
The death rate has risen by 1.5 per 1,000 between 1997 and 2018 so there are about 450 persons more dying in 2018 when compared with 1997 assuming the same population.
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Danger Danger
Ring the Alarm
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“Since there is a rising trend, then we can expect there will be more than 2,700 deaths in 2020 and 2021.”
You canexpect (project) more deaths, but that does not mean anything. Look at the blue line 1990 to 1998 a downward trend but in 2000 you can see it trending upwards. Projections can be dead wrong.
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The ‘Barbadosod’ graph appears incredibly smooth compared to the others. It does not exhibit the wavelike (choppy) curves of the other two. This makes me suspicious of what numbers went into it.
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Good response so far to the call for Barbadians to get vaccinated.
https://barbadostoday.bb/2021/02/20/overwhelming-response-to-national-vaccination-programme/
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TheOGazertsFebruary 20, 2021 9:03 PM
The ‘Barbadosod’ graph appears incredibly smooth compared to the others. It does not exhibit the wavelike (choppy) curves of the other two. This makes me suspicious of what numbers went into it.
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Flu perhaps!!
Climate perhaps!
Look at causes of death in UK and US and compare them with here.
NZ and Australia are fitness crazy countries!!
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NZ and Australia also burst our asses in cricket!!
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Suicide is a big problem in US and UK as is the opioid epidemic.
There is hypothermia which takes many.
The old get hit hardest in winter.
Point is there are more causes of death in larger countries than here.
That might be the reason for the fluctuations.
Look at daily death stats for the UK for the first 6 moths of 2018, Winter takes alot.
We don’t have seasons here.
Here the effect of winter is clearly shown in the UK.
US has the winter effect as well.
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UK data here.
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Another virus is with us.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56140270
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RE Another virus is with us.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56140270
NOT SURPRISED
THAT IS EXPECTED
PLAGUES ARE PART OF THE BIRTH PANG SIGNS OF THE EPIPHANEA GIVEN BY JESUS IN THE OLIVET DISCOURSE IN MATTHEW 24……….AND THIS CANNOT BE REFUTED
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What we need is a graphical representation of deaths by day and by year like the UK statistics.
What if at the end of 2021 we see somewhere around 2,700 deaths as one would expect?
We would then know that people were dying with COVID, not of it.
The daily statistics need to be available.
Hopefully the authorities are using them!!
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Are we living at the ‘hinge of history’?
When humanity first made plans to send probes and people into space in the mid-20th Century, the issue of contamination came up.
Firstly, there was the fear of “forward” contamination – the possibility that Earth-based life might accidentally hitch a ride into the cosmos, or on return to earth.
Spacecraft needed to be sterilized and carefully packaged before launch. If microbes snuck onboard, it would confuse any attempts to detect alien life. And if there were extra-terrestrial organisms out there, we might end up inadvertently killing them with Earth-based bacteria or viruses, like the fate of the aliens at the end of War of the Worlds. These concerns matter just as much today as they did back in the Space Race era.
The fact that SARS-CoV-2 was first detected in Wuhan, China, far from where the horseshoe bat is found, hints at the presence of an intermediary.
Did SARS viruses hitch a ride to earth 🌏???
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@Grenville Phillips “I expect the Government will finally see the light in May 2021. That is when the total forecasted deaths from exponential growth exceed 1,000”
Who made this forecast?
I thought that you were a structural engineer, not an epidemiologist. Deaths can reach 1,000 by May if we do nothing. But if we mask, wash, distance and immunize the number of fatalities is unlikely to reach that number.
I forecast that by May our yeo-woman public health nurses will have immunized all adult Bajans and residents. They are already immunizing almost 3,000 vulnerable people per day. And if a vaccine has been developed for children, then the children will have been immunized also and that we will have reached herd immunity.
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“I am still not convinced that many of the “COVID” deaths are not due to the epidemic of NCD’s in Barbados.
I think people are more likely dying with COVID and not from it!!
@JohnBoy
If you would stop dismissing COVID-19 as a flu and take the time to find out how this virus is ACTUALLY killing people with NCDs then you will realize how serious it is and how ignorant you are. The fatality rate of people with NCDs who caught COVID-19 is significantly higher. If you have a NCD how your immune system reacts along with the virus doing damage itself is what is causing those fatalities.
If you are insinuating that those people would die anyway from NCDs, that reasonable steps should not be taken to save them from COVID-19, then you are clearly a sociopath. Gov’t has to protect ALL its citizens and not throw those with NCDs under a COVID-19 bus.
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Disgusting Lies & Propaganda TVFebruary 21, 2021 12:50 AM @JohnBoy If you would stop dismissing COVID-19 as a flu and take the time to find out how this virus is ACTUALLY killing people.
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That is it exactly. The problem is that so many dismiss Covid19 as just a respiratory issue. It is not. It causes inflammation throughout the body. That is why the children are also being affected with the inflammation syndrome.
It exacerbates the vascular and clotting issues of those with heart and circulation problems, causes clots in various organs, thereby creating issues in those organs, just as it does with the lungs.
This is why in the government press conference, do you remember Dr,Cave making a reference that Covid19 could present as a stroke?
That is why. It is also why a cheap steroid is being commonly used in Covid19 cases and why all of the experimental drugs, used before for other inflammatory illnesses seem to work with Covid19 in reducing mortality.
Here is an example of one drug.
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210208/Can-early-use-of-colchicine-reduce-COVID-19-mortality.aspx
As an aside, adults are also being affected by inflammatory syndrome after the initial Covid19 infection. This is why it cannot be dismissed as a flu. People get over the flu. Or the majority except the very most immune compromised.
Many young and healthy people are not getting over Covid-19.
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@Tony The fact that SARS-CoV-2 was first detected in Wuhan, China, far from where the horseshoe bat is found, hints at the presence of an intermediary.
I do not believe that Santa Claus exists. Nor the tooth fairy.
There is an experimental lab in Wuhan. The virus originated close to the lab. The US intelligence services have gone on record saying that a number of lab employees were sick in the autumn of 2019.
The math I learned in school said that 1+1=2.
I believe evidence over publicity. Only a very naive person thinks that this virus comes from eating a bat.
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Tony et al.
The question that you should be asking is not whether this virus is natural occurring or man made.
The question to be asked is whether it is an accident or deliberate biological warfare?
That question is the one that we need an answer for. If the latter, then who and with what motive?
If it is the latter, that does not mean it was the Chinese.
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Source: Nation
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Source: Nation
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“The extended lockdown caught many business owners by surprise and as a result they may be forced to lay off workers.”
My interpretation of the messages being sent from the heavens is money is not all.
The children of the children of the children of the children of the children of slaves should be told this as their ancestors were sold for money for the purpose of making more money from the suffering and exploitation of others lives. My spiritual father who’s house has many mansions told me to tell you that to free yourselves and free your minds. Regardless of what the other man might say Black Lives Matter.
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So a doctor, not even a public health specialist, is now threatening that vaccinations should (would) become mandatory.
Who elected him?
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Please point to where in the article Dr, Cave is threatening anybody? He stated something that is known.
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I ignore the jackasses looking for fame. WHEN the human trials for this vaccine ARE OVER…then they should come out and talk, until then, they will be looked on favorably if they shut up until they KNOW the effects of a vaccine that has not had any MANDATORY trials…BECAUSE THERE WAS NO TIME..
Europe is not making the vaccine mandatory, neither is North America because they KNOW that they have to wait……but an ignoramus in Barbados and all his fellow ignoramuses believe that it should be made mandatory…ignorance is a disease.
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If ISO 9001 is so dynamic, and after a one-day course managers will be equipped to manage world-class organisations, then this can be the next big winner for Junior and Barbados.
Package it, offer it to the private and public sectors in CARICOM, the region and the world. Monetise it, turn it in to a business winner.
An MBA at Harvard is about US$100000. Think how much Barbados could earn in foreign currency (to use the bogus language of local economists) if Junior was to offer this new paradigm to the world.
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Please point to where in the article Dr, Cave is threatening anybody? She stated something that is known…..(Quote)
COVID-19 vaccinations could become mandatory for health care workers and for travel, says Director of Medical Services at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital, Dr Clyde Cave….(Quote)
I suggest you learn English as a foreign language. I hope you are not typical of young Barbadians.
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Even worse, watch out for the slave master’s spawn and their lies. Mancock the disease in UK claimed that they had a trial and Vitamin D does not work, when they researched the LIE…they found that there was never any trial, so he looks like the lying beheaded sperm that he is and they exposed the trash all over FB …
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The doctor stated his personal opinion and was clear that this was not yet public policy. However, it is already widespread knowledge that vaccine passports will be required. They are basically already so in Israel, where those who have been vaccinated are allowed in public venues. The UK government is clearly heading to vaccine passports.
With borders shut, it is inevitable, to avoid lengthy quarantine period and the administration problems of those, the obvious answer is the vaccine passport.
Like’um or lump’um.
No threat, just what is. Bajans will get the vaccine just to go to Miami and New York. Even if they do not care about Covid. But dum is luv dum Miami and New Yawk.
Think dem aint going stay wid cousin Gloria and guh shopping? Mekking sport.
Soon dum will be fighting fuh de vaccine, like um fighting fuh saltbreads at Pricesmart come Christmas.
An tuh get dums, dum will tell yuh ‘I ent tekking dat!’ Then dum will be at the clinic de nex mawning too besides, getting juk.
Feel dum sweet?
Stupse.
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(Quote)
Please point to where in the article Dr, Cave is threatening anybody? He stated something that is known…..(Quote)
COVID-19 vaccinations could become mandatory for health care workers and for travel, says Director of Medical Services at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital, Dr Clyde Cave….(Quote)
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(Quote):
I suggest you learn English as a foreign language. I hope you are not typical of young Barbadians. (Unquote).
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No, you are the one ‘challenged by an inadequacy in your skills set in ‘Comprehension”!
This is what the ‘experienced’ senior doctor went on to say:
(Quote):
Making it clear that his views were merely based on his experience and not on any official discussion on public policy, Cave said much would depend on the safety of the vaccine as well as its availability to the public.
“Once we have a safe vaccine that is effective and widely available, then it is likely we are going to follow suit like we have been doing for the other diseases. I don’t think that we can stand by watching our elderly, health care workers, family and friends, get sick while we argue over fine points. Again, let me reiterate that this is just my personal opinion as each country makes its own judgement in this department,” he explained. (Unquote).
Aren’t you, (the BU mad hat(t)er), the one- crippled by your overseas “Bajan condition”- who is always decrying the paucity of public debate coming from those professionals- mainly educated at taxpayers’ expense like doctors, lawyers and economists- on important national issues in order to inform and improve public policy and decision-making in order to facilitate effective implementation?
Now who is on the receiving end of the short end of the stick in your childish game of musical chairs played by the throwing-shade crew?
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@Miller
What Cave has opined is already being put in motion, the UK government has agreed to issue COVID Certificates for those who require for travel and other requests although that country has not rolled out such a requirement as yet.
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@David February 21, 2021 5:52 AM
I wish Dr Cave would stick to medicine and not opine on historical mortality rates and causes. The largest impact on disease has never been vaccines but has always been and will always remain sanitary and infrastructure standards. Access to regular clean water and improvement in sanitary and living conditions is the real reason for our lower mortality rates.
Dr. Cave should focus on his job and making sure the QEH staff have all the PPE and support they want so we have no more martyrs for their incompetence instead of public health history.
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@CA
Dr. Cave is a citizen and therefore entitled to his opinion, like you for example.
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“.. We provided our best advice about one year ago, but the Government rejected it at that time…”
This is Grenville’s life story in a nutshell
the same goes for his political “career”
the people rejected his idea of full employment
even for those who have no job and don’t want a job
life’s a bitch
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“Cave said much would depend on the safety of the vaccine as well as its availability to the public.
“Once we have a safe vaccine that is effective and widely available,”
hence the reason they should shut their dumb asses, before they cause more deaths and injuries…..it’s a wait and see.
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@ Crusoe
Dr Cave is not just anybody. He is a senior doctor at the QEH and, more importantly, a member of the CoVid task force. So his views, personal or not, are important. That is why it is news.
If a person in authority raises the issue of compulsory vaccinations, it suggests, that it has been discussed in official corridors, or that, at the very least, it ought to be. That person considers it important.
What is a threat: it is a statement that reduces our right to make personal decisions under penalty. So, by definition, if someone in authority is saying that you need a vaccination passport to work in my factory, implicit is that if you do not comply your livelihood is at risk.
If a senior doctor in Barbados is telling people that they need mandatory vaccinations (and proof of that) in order to travel, s/he is stepping outside his/her authority. It is the receiving country that determines the requirements to enter. Some jurisdictions may say you need a visa, others may not.
I do not want to go in to the nonsense about safe vaccines, since the nation is already undergoing island-wide vaccinations.
The implication is that he is not confident the vaccines are safe. If that is the case then he should make his views on this issue known.
The question is: has he had a jab? To return to the substantive point, if anyone in an official position raises a point, no matter how much they claim they are only speaking out loud, or it is a personal opinion, or they are not speaking for the committee, the reality is that they want that view out in public to be discussed.
To say that unless you have not been vaccinated you cannot or should not get certain jobs or services (re Wickham’s argument with the Rastas) you are in reality denying those people their human rights.
In Britain this issue is also being discussed. The call from some quarters is that for health and social care workers unless they take the jab they should be sacked.
The point is the vast majority of the hesitant people are black and Asian, so, an unintended consequence of any such policy, is to wipe black people out of the NHS – a major employer of black labour. I can imagine those closet racists rubbing their hands and calling for vaccine passports. In the case of Barbados, it is just those with an authoritarian impulse.
Where does it end? Today it is CoVid, tomorrow what?
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I find it embarrassing some people believe that the arrival of the vaccine will see the return of international travel.
During this past year, we have seen the collapse of many airliners. The survivors have heavily reduced the number of planes on their fleet.
The cost of travelling will probably double. A £600 return ticket from the UK will probably double in price.
At least 65% of the world population has taken a huge economic hit during this pandemic. Factor in people’s anxiety over contracting Covid-19 or another virus; then it becomes a certainty that people will remain at home
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Dr. Cave is not a regular citizen like me or you. He has been given a post of authority and has to wield that power in a responsible way.
He ought to watch more Spider-man movies. There have been so many over the years but they all have one theme. ‘With great power comes great responsibility’ and what happens when that power is not wielded wisely.
He is either disingenuous, blind or stupid when he says he does not know why there is all this debate over this vaccine. The reason for all the debate and caution is this is not the traditional vaccine based on a dead or weakened form of the whole virus but based on forcing some of your body’s own cells to produce the spike protein from the real virus and trust the body only targets that and nothing else. Only long term monitoring will tell if this is effective or causes something else to happen.
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@CA
He is a citizen and entitled to share a view like you. This cannot be refuted. BTW, what has he shared that is untrue?
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@John
I will not speculate or go down a rabbit hole. If I find the numbers I will check for myself to make certain we are playing apples with apples.
@Tony
“Did SARS viruses hitch a ride to earth 🌏???”.
It is quite unlikely a parent would allow a child to travel so far alone. Perhaps, they sent along a few cousins covid-19, covid-21, uk variant …. to keep SARS company.
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@Hal Austin February 21, 2021 8:44 AM
I realize this is a repeating pattern with this government. Throw some people out there to float some proposal they might be thinking of implementing in an unofficial capacity to test the temperature out there before announcing the decision and getting their PR people and yard fowls out there to drum up support.
There is no way Dr. Cave gave an interview to the media without getting marching orders from government officials on the message he is to convey and anyone who believes otherwise is naive.
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@CA
Will ask the question again, what did Cave say that is not widely known.
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@ David February 21, 2021 9:09 AM
This particular statement is untrue where he said mandatory vaccination was the only thing that curbed disease. Sanitary conditions is number one reason by far but that is vastly ignored because is not sexy and its failure directly implicates and embarrasses governments.
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@CA
Besides vaccinations what other medical interventions would have curbed the rise of polio, messles etc?
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@ Critical
You are right. It is a perverse rewriting of history. It was the Victorians introducing decent public sanitation – public toilets, public baths, stand pipes, etc – that improved public health.
Improvements in child mortality had very little to do with vaccination; they helped, of course, but it is not the full story.
It is an issue raised by @PLT sometime ago. I asked him then to explain, but he did not. Now we get nonsense about yellow fever, and smallpox, and TB, etc. But disease has always been part of the human experience.
For 50000 years we have co-existed with wild animals, some of which we not only domesticated but eat daily, with the only intervention being the discovery of fire.
Politics is a terrible substitute for poor historical scholarship. Who is going to write the history of CoVid in Barbados? Who is going to write the wider medical history of Barbados? Who is going to write the history of traditional medicines in Barbados?
Coming on a blog, Googling the history of some diseases, then painting them over the history of the island is fraudulent.
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Australia and New Zealand have COVID death rates which are 35 and 5 per million of population.
Ours currently is 108 per million, 20 times that of New Zealand and 3 times that of Australia.
It is not surprising.
New Zealanders and Australians have both received vaccinations against NCD’s.
It is called exercise and it was not recently invented there!!
It isn’t 100% effective, some still die.
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DavidFebruary 21, 2021 9:38 AM
@CA
Besides vaccinations what other medical interventions would have curbed the rise of polio, messles etc?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What was the rate of increase of polio and measles of which you opine and when was it greatest in Barbados?
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The Polio epidemic in Barbados.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/4592440?seq=1
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If you look at the abstract of the article by the three doctors on Polio in Barbados you will see that the outbreak terminated BEFORE the advent of oral vaccinations.
M.A. Byer was Sir Maurice Byer
Albert Graham was Sir Bertie Graham.
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One problem with barbajans is they appear to be too heavy in the talk and light in the action and the talk seems to be more about their ego and who is lesser great and greatest and seems to be about conflict and argument and not peace in the heart for conflict resolution. I’m not having a pop but trying to facilitate the raising of the vibration to take it to the next higher level.
Hal has got his knickers twisted up about somebody putting out there the concept of mandatory vaccines.
Maybe a more organic approach would be mandatory exercise instead as a national means to improve health during these times of sickness.
Instead of fearing changes, get excited about the progress
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Sorry, in the 1963 outbreak, abrupt termination was temporarily related to the administration of the vaccine.
The vaccine rid the island of the annual 0-7 cases it was experiencing in the 50’s.
It seems disingenuous to compare the situation with Polio to that with COVID.
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None of the COVID vaccines will rid the island of COVID.
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Can you point to where the government has promoted the covid 19 vaccine of getting rid if the virus?
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@john
“If you look at the abstract of the article by the three doctors on Polio in Barbados you will see that the outbreak terminated BEFORE the advent of oral vaccinations.”
What you stated contradicts what is in the excerpt that you provided.
“showed abrupt termination of the outbreak temporally related to the mass island wide administration of toral poliovirus vaccine”
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Two different kinds of vaccine are available:
An inactivated (killed) polio vaccine (IPV) developed by Dr. Jonas Salk and first used in 1955, and
A live attenuated (weakened) oral polio vaccine (OPV) developed by Dr. Albert Sabin and first used in 1961.
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@John
I see you corrected your statement.
👍
I see now it was an honest error.
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@ Critical AnalyzerFebruary 21, 2021 9:29 AM
“@ David February 21, 2021 9:09 AM
This particular statement is untrue where he said mandatory vaccination was the only thing that curbed disease. Sanitary conditions is number one reason by far but that is vastly ignored because is not sexy and its failure directly implicates and embarrasses governments.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Where in the interview can one find the paediatrician making such a dogmatic claim that “mandatory vaccination was the only thing that curbed disease…”?
This is what the goodly doctor said (with emphasis on “partly attributed”):
(Quote):
The paediatrician argued that much of the advancements in modern medicine that are now taken for granted, are due to vaccines that were first met with some degree of resistance. Currently, Barbados’ infant mortality rate as of 2019 was 11.7 to 1 000 births, which is one of the lower rates in the region, an accomplishment which Cave partly attributed to mandatory vaccination of children. (Unquote).
It cannot be gainsaid that improved sanitary conditions over the last 2 centuries -due mainly to easy access to potable water- have had a significant impact in reducing the infant mortality rate not only in Barbados but right across the globe.
A public health fact which not even your ‘out-of-order’ (in your biased eyes) Doc Cave would seek to deny unless he is more of a scientific jenny than a medical jack of an ass.
Oh how Edward Jenner must be crying shouts of hallelujah from his grave since 1823 just to know that “educated” people like Hal Austin- who is not that’ naively’ stupid as to allow himself and his offspring, all members of the ethnic minorities- to kick against the ‘pricks’ and stubbornly refuse the jabs required to help counter the rising incidences of measles, mumps, rubella, polio and tetanus, etc. in the UK.
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Mr Williams reporting in..
“@ Critical
You are right. It is a perverse rewriting of history. It was the Victorians introducing decent public sanitation – public toilets, public baths, stand pipes, etc – that improved public health.
Improvements in child mortality had very little to do with vaccination; they helped, of course, but it is not the full story.”
“Coming on a blog, Googling the history of some diseases, then painting them over the history of the island is fraudulent.”
Just as fraudulent is coming on a blog and down playing the role of modern medicine in reducing child mortality. I find it difficult to understand how some are able to neatly separate things that are linked together and then apply a ‘weight’ to the various parts.
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TheOGazertsFebruary 21, 2021 10:33 AM
@John
I see you corrected your statement.
👍
I see now it was an honest error.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You of course also noted that the 1933 outbreak abruptly terminated WITHOUT any vaccinations!!
In fact, in 1933 there were no vaccinations.
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Pretty sure you would have figured that out on your own.
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Perhaps, Miller should inquire if they are paid full-time positions at BU.
These guys throw it against the wall with such authority that they would make you doubt your own common sense.
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DavidFebruary 21, 2021 10:14 AM
Can you point to where the government has promoted the covid 19 vaccine of getting rid if the virus?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How many people in Barbados believe it?
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“You of course also noted that the 1933 outbreak abruptly terminated WITHOUT any vaccinations!!
In fact, in 1933 there were no vaccinations.”
Since it is you who asked the question, I will ask you for an answer. Do not mention the word “Quaker”
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I am still studying, researching and thinking of mandatory vaccinations.
Sadly, I have come to realize that I am slow when compared to some of you.
I seem to lack the capacity to provide an instant answer on most topics. Perhaps that part of my Bajan condition was impaired and replaced by passive-aggressiveness.
It just dawned on me who is the most aggressive-aggressive of us 😃
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Polio (infantile paralysis) is a communicable disease, which is categorized as a disease of civilization. Polio spreads through human-to-human contact, usually entering the body through the mouth due to faecally contaminated water or food.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Even Polio can be spread by water.
It isn’t only vaccinations that helped, water chlorination ended it that means of its spread.
So we are back to basic public health measures.
Sir Maurice was obviously sharing a fact of life with me which I never doubted.
Modern medicine is great but extremely limited,
If you get other public health issues right, then serious problems can be dramatically reduced where its limitations are not exposed.
The more this discussion goes on the more respect I have for the folks at the BWA, formerly the WWD.
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When I was growing up in the 50’s and 60’s my father ensured that every drop of water for our consumption was boiled on the kerosene stove we had back then.
We even had a water filter into which the boiled water was poured for storage.
No plastics back then!!
Stored about 5 gallons or so.
He had spent 16 years as an engineer in the oilfields of Venezuela and understood the issues associated with water.
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Going to leave this topic
“The more this discussion goes on the more respect I have for the folks at the BWA, formerly the WWD.”
Indeed there is merit in what was said by HA and CA. It is the assignment of weights that I have difficulty with. I see you too assigned weights in the preceding paragraphs.
Could it be that changes is basic public health measures were brought about by an increase of medical knowledge?
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Grasshopper
That is why you are a grasshopper.
Slow to learn!!
Unfortunately, you may be past it!!
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… slow to learn and confident in your ignorance.
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@ Williams
You are amazing. Where is the downplaying? I said it was improvements in public sanitation that drove improvement in public health, although vaccines played a part. You may be right, but that is what is taught in basic social history.
I am not a scientist, nor am I interested in science, but vaccines control the existing problem, and the concomitant herd immunity helps to keep disease at bay.
The treatment for smallpox came out of West Africa and it was not medical vaccines as we know them today. but the development of a herd immunity.
They introduced it to Turkey, and from there to the UK, then US. It was Onesimus the slave who taught his maser Cotton Mather, who went on to historical fame.
But improvements in public sanitation are the greater contribution to better public health. No-one is down playing the role of medical science in the past, and the role it continues to play now.
If you are unhappy with the order I have out them in, plse tell me what weight you will give to the various policies which contributed to improvements in public health.
Public health is not an exclusively medical field; one can be a public health officer without having a medical qualification, it is multi-disciplinary, from environmental officers, dustmen, to sociologists, economists, community nurses, and contributions come from every aspect of the field.
Some people now wrongly talk of crime as a public health issue (the Glasgow experiment). Crime is a social construct. It was medical hygiene that greatly reduced cholera in Barbados.
Chid mortality was mentioned. Every year a large number of black women die in child birth in the UK, one of the most medically advanced countries in the world. How do we explain that?
There are parts of North West London and East London where there are high incidences of tuberculosis and now CoVid; again, how do you explain that? Barbados has got a high per capita rate of HIV?Aids, how do you explain that?
You do not have to be a doctor or medical scientist to know this; it is part of social history and anyone who studies the social history of where they live will know the background to these policies. And this is the history that forms the syllabuses of some exams.
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