Submitted by Yardbroom
It Is best being clear at the outset, to prevent unnecessary distraction and diversion into non-productive debates leading into cul-de-sacs. There are people – of sober mind and disposition – who do not believe in the Bible and what it teaches. Some boldly say they are not Christian. Many others have no interest of any kind in Religion and even think it is not a force for good in the world.
This submission is not a vehicle to facilitate an argument to the above views, as I am aware logic “however” arrived at is limited in changing a belief system. However, it is a fact that a major section of Barbados society is Christian or go to church regularly and have religious beliefs, even if tenuous.
“Protestant 63.4% (Anglican 28.3%, Pentecostal 18.7%, Methodist 5.1%. other 11.3%) Romam Catholic 4.2%, other Christian 7%, other 4.8%, none or unspecified 20.6%”
Source: Religious Statistics
You cannot change a society by “ignoring” the belief systems of a major section of that society, it is that which has led me to pose the question in this submission.
I have heard members of the church speak of Barbados society’s ills. This week the “Archdeacon Eric Lynch of the “Anglican Church” made comments of people in society who were exhibiting unacceptable behaviour” (Nation News, September 06, 2011).
We need a concerted effort by all faith groups, rallying not only their flocks, but reaching out to the wider community as a force for good. This proactive Army needs to lead by example, it is not enough just to say, but lead by what we do. If a light shines on the untruthfulness you practice but do not preach – your case is undermined – who can believe in what you say. The good exposition of a cause flounders when a light shines upon duplicitous practices.
Society is best served when actions are taken not simply because they are the tenets of Religion but because they are just and good in their own right, and lead to a better society. Those of Christian and other religious beliefs can take up the mantle for good, not to state they are better than other groups but because no good will come from a vacuum. When others say what they are against – or do not believe in – but will not take positive action to bring about change in the society of which they are a part, their contribution to that society can be questioned.
We need to have a serious conversation with the young people in Barbados, who have been led astray and let them know, if they have decided to go outside common decency and attack society; then they are on their own. A “united society” will always defeat their selfish and destructive ambitions.
Society’s Religious leaders must first sacrifice self interest and positions of importance for the common good. All naked selfish ambitions must be subsumed, that calls for a structured approach when people of all faiths through their leaders come together. Law enforcement agencies could have an input but there must be an Army of people whose authority has already been given through the organisations they represent.
It could be – and some will say absolutely necessary – that others with no religious affiliation should be included, for the objective is a better society which is not solely defined by Religious people but by what we as individuals contribute to the whole and how our individual actions impacts on it.
In any organisation or collection of people there will be the nay-sayers, some snipe from the sidelines, they will say this faith, or its leaders have a bad record in Y, this faith was very involved in the slave trade, this faith X seeks separation from others and so on but they never say what their philosophy offers and how it will be achieved….leave the nay-sayers to their fate and we do the business of importance.
It is also folly to say all is well when it clearly is not, if a problem has been identified, there is a need to solve it, other ideas maybe better and worthy of note, but to do nothing and exist in a state of drift with no positive action, is not an option that will lead to a better society in Barbados.
The biggest disappointment must be that with all the fervour that religion brings to the table, we have not seen a commensurate enrichment in the human condition in Barbados. It is a legitimate question.
If the Church sees itself as one of the moral leaders in society, and there is a good bet the majority of the Bajan population perceives such to be the case, theirn the Church needs to perform serious and urgent retrospection.
The religious discussion we often have on BU if taken as a ‘microcosm’ of the whole shebang, suggests the Church is not willing to adjust the way the message is being delivered.
Instead it prefers to remain in a place trapped by religious dogma and perhaps too much intellectualizing of the issues.
Lead by example!
the church should be aware that its influence will/may diminish from generation to generation in the modern global world as a general trend
I say no. Does this sound familiar?
“You cannot change a society by “ignoring” the belief systems of a major section of that society”
If 80% of the population already “go to church regularly and have religious beliefs”, why would anyone wish to have these same church people influencing society any more than they have previously done?
Unless it is being implied that the church is/was asleep, leaving the flock unattended and at the mercies of the wolves or that the 80% who profess some sort of religious belief, do not constitute the church.
I guess the first question then should be , who or what is this church that you speak of?
Good point lil boy.
The church was around from the start yet they have done basically nutting to help society, either that or their message just is not as inviting as main stream.
In any case where church used to lead and teach morals, now the TV does that job. So it is expected that society in general would reflect this.
Keith Douglas – Teacher Never Taught Me + Teacher Never Dub Me
Has the church really influenced the population in the past? The church is a convenience for many, baptism, marriage and death and it has been quite contented to fill that role. The church has not set a moral example to society, look at the scandals that have been covered up by not publicizing them even though the congregation knows about them. The hypocrisy goes on and on.
Look at the deplorable state of the graveyards in the churches. The priests claim that they don’t have enough MONEY to maintain them properly. Why can’t they ask to congregation to come on a Sunday in working clothes to clean them up.
It is evident that many do not believe in the teachings of the church but rather than say so they pretend to because they want to LOOK good to society by attending.
For the church to influence society, Barbados has to become a Religious State and that will be the death of democracy. If that ever becomes a reality there will be a mass exodus.
Religious dogma has become a way of life for many, many believe that by quoting verses will solve the problems and give them salvation. What they fail to understand the people are not interested in hearing these verses over and over again and not making sense to them. We lack good and sound leadership is all aspects of society. Does this have something to do with our education system? We keep hearing the same messages being regurgitated over and over again and fail to acknowledge that they are not working. We need imaginative and motivated persons to inspire and lead. Our make up does not allow for that. We are taught to follow blindly without questioning and many are no longer prepared to do that.
we don’t discriminate against christians per se,
just the nutty ones like tb, zoe, lemuel and co.
The church is not the buildings.
It is not the graveyards either.
The Anglican Church did embark on an extensive building programme after slavery. Until emancipation there were only the 11 parish churches and All Saints Church in St. Peter which in the 1600’s was to have been a parish church.
I’ll take a look at the book on the Historic Churches of Barbados and see if my memory is correct on the dates and numbers of buildings when I get a chance.
The Moravians and Methodists had very few church buildings.
There was a Jewish synagogue.
Up until the early 1800’s most people in Barbados were slaves and belonged to no church whatsoever.
Perhaps we should start the exercise by first figuring out what the church is, or what it is supposed to be, before we go assigning any roles to it and its leaders.
We may be surprised at the outcome!!
Since the dis-establishment by government of the Anglican Church and declaring Barbados as a Religious Society instead of a Christian Society, the moral fabric of this country has fallen badly. We now have lecturers at our UWI threatening students who profess christianity, many of our brightest young people are confused about religion.
Coupled with that is the fact that with so many christian demoninations in this country, instead of going out to the “sinful” areas and convert those people, each group is trying to pull members away from their “faith.”
Along with this comes the Americanising of christianity in Barbados with the focus on big churches and making money at all cost.What we need is a return of the good old christian beliefs and faith in God.
To kiki:
I must admit that i did laugh loudly when I read you last post.
The last time that the church was called upon to influence the society, at least the Minister of Finance /PM was when the civil service suffered a 8% paycut.
The Anglican Church built both churches and schools after emancipation.
Education came through the church.
From small, children were “brought up” in the church.
This does not happen today.
Children can leave school with little or no religious instruction.
They can become doctors, lawyers, engineers, shopkeepers, …. even politicians and have no religious training or believe in anything much.
They can even become parents!!
I seem to remember scripture or religious knowledge or whatever it was called back then being phased out of Harrison College when I was there.
I can vaguely remember classes in second form but that’s it.
I remember morning prayers every day until I left, but that seems to be the only thing I remember of any consistent exposure to the Bible or religious teaching.
Confirmation was something separate from school.
I remember the ISCF. Not many belonged.
I suspect a problem we face today as a society is that many people although on paper belonging to a denomination of the church don’t have any real knowledge or belief which was passed on to them as children.
… and if you believe in nothing, you will fall for anything.
I could be wrong but I think many of our problems in society lie in faithlessness …………. which leads to wutlessness.
I admit I have not given it much thought as life simply flies by!!
Hi Lil Boy
Your point has been well made. I simply say offer a suggestion “anything” that you think will be of assistance in our present predicament.
I know what they – the Church – have not done, but what will we do?
Hi islandgal 246
The idea you suggested about clearing graveyards demonstrates my point.
I see the Church as a body that does things or rather should; perhaps we need more practice now and less preaching about the later.
Hi John
The “Church” has many definitions I have taken the Church here to mean ( usually capitals) “The collective body of Christians”.
The influential black churches in the USA is more like fortune 500 companies, with all the wall street perks and lifestyle, that come with it. Nowadays you cannot tell if these organisation are churches or large private corporation. The soul saving charade is a serious tax free multi-billion dollar business. Yep, I wish I had the temerity to pull these stunts that these pulpit pimps get away with.The dominant theology of these mega-church preachers is the prosperity gospel i.e. worshipping of money. From T.D. Jakes, Eddie Long , Criflo Dollar etc .. Before long the church in Caribbean will be following these models, as we like to adopt anything foreign. But what do I care, just saying.
@ Fortyacres and a mule
“Before long the church in Caribbean will be following these models, as we like to adopt anything foreign. But what do I care, just saying.”
You have to care, we are all part of the society.
The older generation worshipped God first and money afterwards. The young people worship money and drugs first, then maybe God if they feel like. If no one checks who is on the block then the bad guys will take over.
Yardbroom are you familiar with the idea of village justice? The vilage nuses to purge itself of its cancer. That is no longer happening where I live.
BU in earlier similar discussions asked the question – what replaces the moral authority of the Church of yore in today’s world?
Barbados is essentially a secular society. Religion appears (to me) to be, for the overwhelming majority of Barbadians, only a sentimental attachment to the traditions and ceremonies of the past. Most of the social functions once carried out by the Churches (schools, welfare support, public health etc) are now done by the State. I would prefer that anyone seeking to influence Barbados society should do so from a perspective that is rational i.e. by application of the scientific method, democratic republican i.e. with reference to the will of the majority but with regard to the rights of the minority and humanistic i.e. acceptance of Man at the centre of the development of ethics and justice.
@David..We should go back to the good old family values. The family has always been the foundation and the guardian of good social values, but it too has lost its way.The dysfunctional family is its new status.The african proverb of “its take a village” is a thing of the past. We must rescue the family first, for without it the church itself becomes irrelevant.
As you know the church and the whole christianity business is not my fight, however, but I will say this, they have lost the moral high ground decades ago. Here in the USA, its scandal after scandal, from adultery, homosexuality, financial frauds,selling of blessings, selling of prayers, etc you name it, some of these churches ain’t much different from the mafia.
Has the Church really influenced the population? Yes it has.
We can’t ignore the institution of the church, it is too prevalent there are almost as many churches as rum shops in Barbados. Though most of us only use the church as a “convenience” just the act of going to church means you are expected to display certain behavior, and live a certain life style, we all know what they are.
Evil can be anywhere that men are, including the church, and we can deduce evil men will go into church basically looking to capitalize on the good will of others. I prefer to view the church is a hospital for sinners rather than a building full of “nice people” it’s from that point of view I approach all Christians and it has served me well.
Ping pong said “I would prefer that anyone seeking to influence Barbados society should do so from a perspective that is rational i.e. by application of the scientific method, democratic republican i.e. with reference to the will of the majority but with regard to the rights of the minority and humanistic i.e. acceptance of Man at the centre of the development of ethics and justice.”
I totally agree with you on this one Ping pong, as society become more scientific in general the church stance rejecting all things scientific causes people to turn away from the church towards science & technology when the two should be merged together it would benifit us all.
If I may put my two cents forward…
IMHO, it would be good if all faiths acknowledged they cannot prove that they are correct. It wouldn’t be called “faith” if it could be proven.
And thus, reciprocally, they cannot prove that others are wrong.
Faith is not a bad thing. Fundamentally, no one knows what is true (except in a very few rarefied domains of mathematics.
Thus, each and ***EVERY ONE*** of us must take a “leap of faith” as to what be believe in. Fundamentally.
But — and this is very important — we can not prove what we believe in is correct. Fundamentally.
The sad thing is we’ve been set up to fight each other based on our differing beliefs….
Ping Pong
Hear hear …
Scout
” the moral fabric of this country has fallen badly ”
Hmm, from the moral fabric exhibited by an exploitative slave based economy to what Scouty boy …?
John
“… faithlessness …………. which leads to wutlessness..”
Wait yah obscene egomaniac, you saying that I gun become wutess (worthless)? Yah $%6^&R ^&%%$
Pope Benedict XVI: British Riots Linked To ‘Moral Relativism’
Posted: 9/9/11 05:24 PM ET
By Francis X. Roccac. 2011 Religion News Service
VATICAN CITY (RNS) Pope Benedict XVI linked last month’s riots in England to the corrosive effects of “moral relativism,” and warned that preserving social order requires government policies based on “enduring values.”Benedict made his remarks on Friday (Sept. 9) to Britain’s new Vatican ambassador, Nigel M. Baker, at a meeting in the papal summer residence at Castel Gandolfo, outside Rome.The moral basis of government policies is “especially important in the light of events in England this summer,” Benedict said, in an apparent reference to riots in London and other English cities last month, which left five people dead and caused at least 200 million pounds ($320 million) in property damage.”When policies do not presume or promote objective values, the resulting moral relativism … tends instead to produce frustration, despair, selfishness and a disregard for the life and liberty of others,” the pope said.Benedict called on government leaders to foster the “essential values of a healthy society, through the defense of life and of thefamily, the sound moral education of the young, and a fraternal regard for the poor and the weak.”The pope’s words echoed remarks by British Prime Minister David Cameron, who said last month that the riots were a consequence of his nation’s “slow-motion moral collapse.”
@David
This is an experiment.
Since you seem to respond to the audience immediately after I post, but with a completely independent subject.
Are you actually there?
David… Let’s do a John von Neumann test… Please tell me what 2*8 – 10 is. It should be a familiar number.
@BU.David… “Please tell me what 2*8 – 10 is. It should be a familiar number.
With the deepest of respect to Kiki, I will quote the language rather than linking to a video provider…
“Major Tom”, by David Bowie…
Ground Control to Major Tom
Ground Control to Major Tom
Take your protein pills and put your helmet on
Ground Control to Major Tom
Commencing countdown, engines on
Check ignition and may God’s love be with you
Spoken:
Ten, Nine, Eight, Seven, Six, Five, Four, Three, Two, One, Lift-off
This is Ground Control to Major Tom
You’ve really made the grade
And the papers want to know whose shirts you wear
Now it’s time to leave the capsule if you dare
“This is Major Tom to Ground Control
I’m stepping through the door
And I’m floating in a most peculiar way
And the stars look very different today
For here
am I sitting in my tin can
Far above the world
Planet Earth is blue
And there’s nothing I can do
Though I’m past one hundred thousand miles
I’m feeling very still
And I think my spaceship knows which way to go
Tell my wife I love her very much (she knows!)
Ground Control to Major Tom
Your circuit’s dead, there’s something wrong
Can you hear me, Major Tom?
Can you hear me, Major Tom?
Can you hear me, Major Tom?
Can you hear….
“ am I floating round my tin can
Far above the Moon
Planet Earth is blue
And there’s nothing I can do.?
Chris
Wah you smoking tonight..? I could use some ..
@BAFBFP: “Wah you smoking tonight..? I could use some ..
Pure Truth.
Most can’t handle it….
Just for the record, I find it a bit weird that all of the authorities refuses to speak authoritatively to their position.
Why must be we be surrounded by, and then must speak to, cowards?
It seems a reasonable question.
You cannot change a society by “ignoring” the belief systems of a major section of that society, it is that which has led me to pose the question in this submission.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yardbroom
You just don’t get it!!
The deed has already been done!!
The system of schooling the Anglican Church had developed post emancipation has been dismantled.
The belief systems of a major part of the society have already been ignored and as a result society has changed.
It will not miraculously change back by wishing which you seem to be doing.
What is done is done.
Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind!!
…… and that’s what is beginning to unfold right before our eyes.
I’ll leave you to find where I got those words of wisdom from …. and …… when you have found the source read on ……. and you will see what happens as a result of sowing the wind.
Lil Boy thinks 80% of Bajans go to church and have beliefs ….. like you, he just doesn’t get it!!
I think 80% of Bajans probably don’t go to church.
I don’t go much myself.
Wait yah obscene egomaniac, you saying that I gun become wutess (worthless)? Yah $%6^&R ^&%%$
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Are you saying you are faithless?
Aesthete John, that is the politically appropriate term to use
Jesus Christ Atheist … what the f*ck is wrong wid dis blasted spell check $%$^$# ^^$^4
‘not believing’ does not mean ‘evil’
To Chris:
What is wrong with faith? What is wrong with knowing something that if it is described to you within the confines of your belief system would render it difficult to accept. There are things in the human experience that have to be ‘experienced’. For the person with that experience their faith is confirmed. Why pursue truth if one does not intend to utilize the things that hold it in place, and faith is one of those things. You mentioned aspects of mathematics only capable of rendering truth, but whose truth is it. Most likely, it is the truth as set out in equations by the producer of it. You know that you mathematicians are yet to fully ventilate the oneness of the number one; how then can put down faith when we puny humans really at some times have to believe you know what you are doing. Yet when you come to God, you come as if you really know, when human wisdom still lacks the tools to define or confine God to an equation. See how we struggle just to make sense of nature, with some of us ending up believing there is some magical powers in the stars.
I am just doing this one post, but having read through all of them I thought i needed to sat that.
@lemuel
The above extract from your last comment is irrefutable however we know that most believers follow a Deity because of some abstract obligation to follow something greater usually inculcated through upbringing, a kind of group thinking at play.
How does one convert this yearning to believe into something which is overall positive for the society?
islandgal you constantly speak of we this /that in your comment. in my view, salvation is my own prerogative, not the church,the ptriest, denomination or whatever for those of us who believe or stuggle with our faith, we have to give acoount of our own actions on the day appointed, nobody can do it on our behalf. so said, i must confess that i have been disaapointed over the years with the commitmment of those who offering themselves as ministers of christ particularly the examples they set. ordination to the priesthood for example in the denonimation to which i subscribe now seems to be no longer a VOCATION but a means to an end and the more perspective membership is observing the unchristian like behavioural patterns of these wolves in sheep clothing and are becpoming frustrated.
give that man a helping hand –
help him just as much as you can
hurt no man
and no man will hurt you
– so jah jah say, so jah jah say
@Balance……said “islandgal you constantly speak of we this /that in your comment.”
How would you like me to phrase my comments?
maybe the bajan church could link up and help africa
-sponsor children / schools etc
there’s poor and there’s more poor
Hi check the block,
September 9, 2011@6:11pm
I am very familiar with the village justice of which you speak. As a young boy my mother would often say “never let me see you playing with boy X or boy Y he is trouble, and will bring disgrace on you and this family” – that was common practice for many families – those boys were on their own. Their parents would be expected to bring them to heel or they would be seen as abdicating their responsibilities.
The success of parents in parenting was seen through the behaviour of their children – money had very little to do with it. Very few parents wanted to be know as parents of wutless children.
It was not a”perfect society” but evidenced by what is happening now it worked to some degree.
Hi Ping Pong
September 9, 2011@ 6:13pm
Your analysis of the present situation is worthy of serious consideration, my only reservation is that because of the common belief system of most people in Barbados, it would take a very strong motor to drive it forward….that does not mean it is not a worthy option.
Hi ready done
September 9, 2011 @ 8:26pm
…”just the act of going to church means you are expected to display certain behavior, and live a certain life style, we all know what they are”
Rarely do so few words clear the fog and get to the kernel of the problem as you have done.
You very wisely used the word “expected” many often fail that is not the fault of the church.
Hi John
September 10, 2011 @ 12:23 am
“Yardbroom you just don’t get it!!
…the deed has already been done!!…
…what is done is done…
Sow the wind reap the whirlwind!!!”
What is done is done quite true, but sometimes we must try to change the situation resulting from previous action.
We cannot just walk by on the other side of the road, doing nothing.
TO David:
I have seen that comment about man being socialized to follow something greater used here time and time again. when I look at my development I do not remember that being a part of my experience; I have never followed the crowd and many times it was in the opposite direction of even my parents. I do not think that statement holds in some instances. My experience have been involvement in ideas not personalities; may be that is why I not too impressed by many people.
When one throws the word society out there, people seem to get the idea that we speak of people who think alike; even Satan knows better than that. If he is dealing with the educated he brings educated “things” and put them at their disposal. Much of what educated people repeat does not contain one iota of their thoughts. At times when looked at seriously, most of it is mindless regurgitation. Even here on this blog, to get through to Kiki ans Island, you need different approaches, and if you put in Bush Tea and BAFBFP there is a wall of doubt and skepticism that must be overcome. Religious folk are not tooled to undertake much of what is needed to influence society. For the most part, they would have to put off this permeating attitude of seeing sinners as losers and should be left for dead. But when you view their REAL role in the BIBLE, they are supposed to help the widow; assist the orphans, support those in duress and stress, assist the homeless and generally be the example that Christ left. But WE religious folk are more concerned about the who is who who visit our church while the poor and destitute are driven to the back row. The hypocrisy is so bad that when one of the elders in all the church systems or their tribe does any wrong it is over looked but the hammer falls on the other mere mortals. David, until we clean up this mess, and Satan knows it, where do you think the examples shall come from. That is when the boys on the block take over our youth and misguide them, and we are now reaping what the aforementioned mess has sown. Yet, these same religious leaders appear on tv blaming every body and their home and their upbringing when they have failed to do what they had put their hands to the plough for. There is a fact that the boys who sell drugs know; and it is that they shall never be able to purchase any thing in Barbados with a nine to five job within the present system which is geared for the benefit and promotion of a few and their family and friends. I do not expect them to change; do you, and so we reap the world wind.
@lemuel
The extract from your last comment is a worrying one for reasons too obvious to explain.
David
The abstract obligation …. usually inculcated through upbringing …. can be described as society passing on a skill or set of rules that are known to work.
Some people also call it brainwashing and rebel against how it works … that is their choice to make.
I call it avoiding the necessity to re invent the wheel. Our society is based on the wheel …. when we get in our car whether we like it or not it has four of them … actually five, one just as a safety.
Come to think of it this may be the only element in the make up of a car that has a backup on board. It is that important!!
There are rules of engagement in life found over time to be basic which work and which are passed on most efficiently within families (I usually get hammered for this viewpoint).
The families can be single parent or not, it doesn’t matter, once the leader of the family has a grasp of the rules. Experience shows that.
That leads to my position (which I get stick for) that for anyone starting a business from scratch it is extremely difficult to get up to speed with no grasp of the skills needed.
They automatically start at a disadvantage.
…. it is like when our car has a flat tyre.
It grinds to a halt, taking us with it …. or never gets going till we change the tyre.
You just need to look at the functionality of the family to know what problems society will have in the future … and the future looks grim to me given what I see.
Brainwashing and inculcation call it what you will, actually do work and have been shown to work ….. for generations!!
Why fight the obvious?
Go with the flow!!
That must be the truest thing I have ever read from Lemuel!!
Great to see you make the point and I hope Zoe,TB et al are reading this.
That pompous, arrogant, I am better than you attitude displayed by some ‘christians’ as seen here on BU, will never win souls!
It that same approach that makes the average person reject or refuse to hear. It’s all about presentation/ penetration (just look at GP’s style to Zoe’s).
Of course, Techie cant give you 100% though…
Two things to disagree….
The boys on the block are not taking over our youth, the boys on the block ARE our youth.
What influences them to sell drugs are a myriad of reasons….greed, laziness, low self esteem etc.
It is not that they can’t buy anything with a 9-5 job but more like frustration of having a degree, 6 CXCs but still can’t even GET a job.
I know, I lime on the block sometimes and employ some when I can, you would be amazed at the level of frustration. It’s not that some of those guys don’t want to work, they can’t find work.
I really can’t see how the Church can help at this point though, they are so wrought with hypocrisy in the eyes of the average person, they have their work cut out just trying to clean up their own act.
@Techie
Your ground zero view of the problem is valuable to the conversation.
You are correct there is an economic consideration which is the responsibility of the society.
Perhaps what is missing is our [society] failure to fire a spirit of entrepreneurship in our people.
It should not be the youts can’t find work but how are they driven to create work for themselves.
“even here on this blog, to get through to Kiki ans Island, you need different approaches,”
Lemuel …..to GET WHAT through? Can’t you understand and accept that I have chosen to believe something different than you? I am not of the Christian Faith and DON”T EVER want to be so go and try your hocus pocus on others. Your condescending and arrogant attitude is the biggest turnoff. Live your life by example and stop spewing verses, and trying to win souls. We can’t all be the same and diversity enriches ones life. Reliegion in the wrong hands becomes a very dangerous weapon.
Kiki Island Bush Tea BAFBFP
(we been preached to before)
@ David….
True to what you said and I will go a bit further….
“Perhaps what is missing is our [society] failure to fire a spirit of entrepreneurship in our people.
It should not be the youths can’t find work but how are they driven to create work for themselves.”
IMHO, it starts in the schools.
When I entered CCFS (Foundation) in ’82, I did French, Spanish, Latin, Geography, Maths, History English, Home Ec, Science, Physics, Music, Technical Drawing, Wood or Metal work (you had a choice) and a class called Guidance. This was 1st form.
Of all these classes, Guidance with Ms.Fenty was the most important to me. We were taught life, what it was all about, about sex, menstrual cycles (boys and girls), teenage pregnancy and career paths.
Coming to the end of 2nd form, the Guidance teacher would ask what was our career choices, if we had decided what we wanted to be in life.
We then chose the 3rd form we wanted as this was the beginning of our careers. So we would discus and she would help us by looking st our strengths based on our subjects.
Eventually we were sent to these classes from 3rd form.
Science, Language, Business and Technical. Needless to say, Techie was in 3 Technical. You remained there until the end and the classes were structured accordingly. I went on to do TD, Metal work ( I can Braze weld, arc weld and mig weld), Maths, English etc….the core studies of an upcoming technician. I wished IT was there but that came after.
I said all that to say this, many of the youth I meet on the block, have no idea where they want to go in life. they have no focus, no desire, just a bunch of certificates from CXC .
It is the same at UWI….people spending 3 years on a History degree, what would you do with that other than teach or work in the museum?
Lots of them there are loss too as a degree to most is like a brand name.
I will get stick for this but I find that the students from the islands are much more focused when it comes to UWI, maybe because it is a one shot and expensive for them.
More needs to be done in the schools to get the youth focused. I doubt there is a Guidance class anymore but I heard the MoE speak about some cleric being introduced to help or something like that.
If at 14 and you have no idea of what you want to be, in this fast paced world you will be lost and hence the block.
I don’t agree that we should replace the church with a new system. The police are corrupt and canot be trusted in regulating the drug gangs that are being formed.
Regardless of the fact that many people on BU want to kill God, the fact is that the CHurch has always been a progressive force for good and healthy change rather than the reverse. Let us empower the Church to hold the rest of the society to doing the right thing.
Balance, am i incorrect?
Hi Technician
September 10, 2011 @ 10:37am
I was interested in reading what you wrote, if it is that young people in Barbados are not being given proper career guidance.
In my experience – through years spent overseas – students are asked why they are taking certain subjects. To prevent a hoge spoge of subjects being taken which might not get them in the best universities or aid their prospects of work. Consideration is also given to work opportunities in the chosen career eg demand.
Their abilities are matched with their career choices and the route to work, either as an employee, or employer.
The student then has a structured programme, with clearly defined aims and objectives and what he or she needs to do to achieve by way of exams and study.
This blueprint can be modified as events unfold but there is “structure” and young people know what is expected of them.
Why would you look to the society to fire a spirit of entrepreneurship in our youth and at the same time begrudge the passing on of wisdom, rules of life and a career path fron parents to children?
One position completely contradicts the other.
Do you think our children are foolish and cant see thru the hypocritical charade?
If I want, I can leave here and go at the 90 odd year old woman who used to work with my family and hear more wisdom and get more confirmation in my beliefs than I can by going to a university educated person who society believes knows it all.
She probably never passed primary school and worked all her life as a labourer on a plantation before coming to work with us.
She and my mother became sisters.
I can recall a person now long dead, who could not read or write, who had a great impact on my life from the time I was a boy.
I still see his Trumpeter cigarettes and purse on top of my fridge, the same ones he gave to my mother for safe keeping the day he collapsed.
Unfortunately for him, and for us, he never escaped the influence of alcohol and it finally killed him just before he reached his three score and ten.
Our society is in the trouble it is in because the systems which worked for generations were discarded in favour of rubbish, foisted on us by people who never had a clue what they were doing.
This blueprint can be modified as events unfold but there is “structure” and young people know what is expected of them
@ Yardbroom…..
That was the way we came up. From 3rd form we had an idea of what we wanted to do in life, all of us did not follow it to the letter ( I would be making lots more doing mig welding or salvage diving now) but as you said correctly, the blue print was easily modified because there was a structure in place.
We seem to think that everyone must be an academic (more TBs..lol) and this is what has the youth ‘chasing ghosts’ as many will spend 5 years in a failing exercise.
There need to be a way to develop the skills of the youth and point them in the direction where they can get the best results based on their interests and qualifications…….it has to start from young!!
@ John….
In all fairness though, you can’t just hold on to the wisdom of the old people as gospel for the world we live in now, can you?
Would you go using a poultice in 2011?….or still talk about ‘a lining cold’?…..what if you had ‘stricture’?
There is always going to be development and changes in life, that’s the nature of the beast. I do agree with you that….’Our society is in the trouble it is in because the systems which worked for generations were discarded in favour of rubbish, foisted on us by people who never had a clue what they were doing.’
The change was somewhat drastic and more like an about turn in some cases.
Maybe we should have slowed the development and tempered it with a lot more of those old time morals.
@Technician
Agree with you to a point but in the 80s is when an old way of Bajan life started to transform; we encountered a fork in the road.
Yes there was guidance from the school to assist in streaming based on abilities etc but the difference then compared to now was that there was a nexus between the school and the household when delivering education and the ‘manners maketh man approach’.
There was a healthy respect for teacher and recommendations/decisions to be taken affecting the children.
In cases where parents felt incompetent to make certain decisions the teachers/school was able to act as surrogate.
The above is the micro part of the problem, the macro has to do with a declining irrelevant education system which has become masterful at generating paper trophies but where is the commensurate conversion to GDP?
Technician | September 10, 2011 at 12:41 PM | @ John….
In all fairness though, you can’t just hold on to the wisdom of the old people as gospel for the world we live in now, can you?
Would you go using a poultice in 2011?….or still talk about ‘a lining cold’?…..what if you had ‘stricture’?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Wisdom vs medicine!!
Of course I acknowledge advances in medicine as for the good … if you are physically sick as you describe.
But medicine won’t get you through life when you are physically well but something in your mind is troubling you despite the claims of drug companies, psychiatrists …. and psycho analysts!!.
…. but wisdom will.
I thank God for my health every time I watch an ad for medicine in America on TV.
By law, all the known side effects have to be included so the ads come across to me as ….” this mecicine is good for you , but it is known to kill others”!!
…. and still it sells!!
David | September 10, 2011 at 1:18 PM | @Technician
Agree with you to a point but in the 80s is when an old way of Bajan life started to transform; we encountered a fork in the road.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I can tell you it started from when I went to school, 20 years earlier!!!
If you found an irrelevant education system in the 1980’s all I can say it was made so faster than I imagined!!
Whatever education system existed prior to the 60’s when I went to school produced BS&T, Plantations Ltd., Cotton Factory, The Barbados Foundry, The Barbados Mutual, now Sagicor etc. etc. which all made or make a contribution to the economy.
…. oddly enough when the Church held sway!!
I could rest my case right here!!!!!
… but I am sure I will have more to add!!
Whatever education system existed prior to the 60′s when I went to school produced BS&T, Plantations Ltd., Cotton Factory, The Barbados Foundry, The Barbados Mutual, now Sagicor etc. etc. which all made or make a contribution to the economy.
And who were the owners of these companies? This had nothing to do with the education system, these was businessmen who saw an opportunity to control the wealth. They created a monopoly that still exists to today which to a large part remained segregated.
like it our not the block replaceing the church, its time to stop looking at the block as the worst thing ever and start looking for ways to empower them.
islandgal246 | September 10, 2011 at 4:14 PM |
… but you would agree the businessmen of the day who created these long lasting companies also were at one time boys … who went to school … and were educated in whatever system existed then.
It would be great if you could point to similar companies which appeared after the 60’s which contribute to the economy as these ones mention do, or did, but I don’t think you can.
So, unless you can come up with similar companies, what do you think would be a logical conclusion?
When you get there, consider why the companies that were around for 60+ years like Plantations Ltd., Cotton Factory, Barbados Foundry etc failed.
You will find they all have one thing in common. They failed after the 60’s!!
You draw your conclusions from these facts, and others which may be pertinent!!
I would recommend to any aspiring entrepreneur starting from scratch to visit the public library and read the book on Goddard Enterprises in the reference section.
It will show you some of the qualities of perseverence and foresight that are mandatory …. and the importance of family in your business.
http://www.rum.cz/galery/cam/bb/goddard/
John…”.but you would agree the businessmen of the day who created these long lasting companies also were at one time boys … who went to school … and were educated in whatever system existed then.”
John the Education system then favoured these people. They were the ones who HAD the MONEY so they were the ones who opened up BUSINESSES and kept them SEGREGATED to THIS DAY!
“When you get there, consider why the companies that were around for 60+ years like Plantations Ltd., Cotton Factory, Barbados Foundry etc failed.”
The business climate changed many were unable to adapt so many closed their doors.
A Call To Arms: Should The Church Play A “Bigger” Part In Influencing Barbados’ Society
Before this happens the church must unify and we all know that that isn’t going to happen. Too much denominations; what would be the chance of someone choosing the right one?
@ John,
I can only repeat the words of a (Black) Barbadian bank manager speaking (in 2011) on business and other matters: “In Barbados, it’s best to be White rather than bright!”
For John and others:
” Race and Class, Success and Failure in Barbadian Business; the case of James Alsop Lynch and Company Limited” by Dr. Patricia Stafford
http://www.cavehill.uwi.edu/mainlibrary/fhe/histphil/HistoryForum/papers/JamesA.Lynch.pdf
“To conclude, James Alsop Lynch was a brilliant businessman for a number of reasons. He learnt business skills by observing how his father and grandfather ran business;”
My goodness goodnes me … I am not imagining things!!
Lord haveth mercy.
Thx Ping Pong
The Church and its dirty past.
“The Church of England has voted to apologise to the descendants of victims of the slave trade…..
During an emotional meeting of the Church’s governing body in London, Rev Blessant explained the involvement of the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts in the slave trade.
The organisation owned the Codrington Plantation in Barbados, where slaves had the word “society” branded on their backs with a red-hot iron, he said.
“We were directly responsible for what happened”
Rev Simon Bessant.
He added that when the emancipation of slaves took place in 1833, compensation was paid not to the slaves but to their owners.
In one case, he said the Bishop of Exeter and three colleagues were paid nearly £13,000 in compensation for 665 slaves.
He said: “We were directly responsible for what happened. In the sense of inheriting our history, we can say we owned slaves, we branded slaves, that is why I believe we must actually recognise our history and offer an apology.”
The synod passed a motion acknowledging the “dehumanising and shameful” consequences of slavery.”
BBC NEWS Wednesday, 8 February 2006, 18:47 GMT.
The Church has lost credibility .
Catholic Church in crisis.
VoB’s talk show tomorrow will be about the role of the Church in Barbados.
Demons in the Church.