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Moral Authority Of The Church Under Threat At Eastertide

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It seems the biggest irony that Pope Benedict XV a German should be under pressure at this time because of the role the Catholic has played in covering up sex offences through the years. Perhaps now more than at any time in recent history the moral authority of the Church is being challenged. Other denominations may want to believe that they are absolved from the growing public perception that problems in the Church is confined to one or the other. The reality of the situation is that the perception of the Church is probably seen by many as having a more amorphous meaning. The Church still represents to many the moral anchor, the possibility that it maybe losing its relevance at a time when cultural relativism is on the rise continues to be a big concern to many.

In 1989 the dismantling of the Berlin Wall signalled the end of the cold war period, Reagan the Capitalist had triumphed over Gorbachev the Communist, from their current locations they both might agree it was truly an epiphanous event. Some are wondering at this Eastertide if Pope Benedict XV will demonstrate the courage to use his position to signal to the world once and for all that the Catholic Church is ready to exorcise the sex demon which continues to besmirch the work of the Church.  Twenty years after the felling of the Berlin Wall we live in a world which still wants to believe that there is someone greater, they maybe ready for yet another epiphanous event.

In any society there is always a place for the wise and intellectual among us. One thing we know is that to believe in God requires faith, no amount of debate whether in a docile or rancorous form can change this reality. While some may argue that religion has been used to brainwash the ignorant; there is the value position which some forget religion teaches of good and bad which has played its role in weaving modern day societies now under threat from moral degradation. If we are to believe that religion has no place in the emerging multicultural societies the question must be answered – What will replace it?

Last week a caller to a radio show who we identified to be Marsha Hinds-Layne, a call-in moderator in her own right, used the fact that there is now a growing distrust of the Church because of the sex scandals. She went on to make the point that many may feel disincline to send their children to Sunday School because of it. One would hope if a parent saw the benefit to be had of sending their children to Sunday School, there are simple remedies which could be put in place to counter the fear expressed by Mrs. Hinds-Layne.  More importantly what the argument has exposed are those who would say that they are Christians but would surrender at the first sighting of a challenge to their faith. What if Jesus Christ would have been so meek?

Easter represents an important event on the Christian calendar.  To quote Wikipedia,  The New Testament teaches that the resurrection of Jesus, which Easter celebrates, is a foundation of the Christian faith.[6] The resurrection established Jesus as the powerful Son of God[6] and is cited as proof that God will judge the world in righteousness.[7] God has given Christians “a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead”.[8] Christians, through faith in the working of God[9] are spiritually resurrected with Jesus so that they may walk in a new way of life.[10]

Alluded to above, the Church is losing its relevance in today’s world and we can debate why. The pragmatists among us see the urgent need for the Church to give itself a chance by cleaning up its act. It will be hard enough for those who represent the Church to win the hearts and souls of the heathens among us without the distractions which have become part and parcel of religion nowadays. The sex scandals, the greed, the hypocrisy…

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety – Proverbs 11:14

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201 responses to “Moral Authority Of The Church Under Threat At Eastertide”

  1. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @Georgie Porgie… Sigh…

    You have admitted to cutting and pasting above…

    Might you consider answering my original questions above with original answers, rather that cut-and-pasting?

  2. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    More information with simple truths on the doctrine of the NT Church

    33 .What are the two ordinances of the church?
    The two ordinances f the church are baptism and the Lord’s supper.

    34.Define an ordinance.

    An ordinance may be defined as an outward rite instituted by Christ to be administered in the church as a
    visible sign of the saving truth of the Christian faith.

    35.How is the New Testament baptism distinguished from John’s baptism?

    John’s baptism differs from New Testament baptism in that John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance in preparation for entrance into the promised kingdom which had been predicted by the prophets, whereas New Testament baptism relates to the believer’s identification with Christ.

    36.“The ordinance of Baptism” is a symbol of the believer’s identification with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection (Rom 6:3f; Col 2:12; I Peter 3:21.)

    37.What three things must come before water baptism?

    Three things that must come before water baptism are :-
    1] instruction [ Matt 28:19]
    2] repentance [ Acts 2:38]
    3] faith [ Acts2:41; 8:12; 18:8; Gal 3:26f]

    38.What significance of baptism is best portrayed by immersion?

    The significance of baptism as a symbol of our identification in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ is best portrayed by immersion

    39 .For whom is water baptism reserved?

    Water baptism is reserved for those who personally and willingly respond to the call of salvation.

    40 Where in scripture is infant baptism taught?

    NOWHERE in scripture is infant baptism taught

    41.What was the name of the common meal eaten before partaking in the celebration of the Lord’s Supper?

    The name of the common meal eaten before partaking in the celebration of the Lord’s Supper was the agape or love feast

    42.With what three other activities in the early church is the celebration of the Lord’s Supper linked?

    The three other activities in the early church with which the celebration of the Lord’s Supper linked are doctrinal teaching, fellowship and prayer (Acts 2: 42)

    43.What are the five significant aspects of the Lord’s Supper?

    The five significant aspects of the Lord’s Supper are that it is :-
    1 ] a memorial to Christ
    2 ] a pledge of the new covenant
    3 ] a proclamation of Christ’s death
    4] a prophecy of Christ’s coming
    5 ] a fellowship with Christ and his own.

    44.What is the sign of the New Covenant, and what does it symbolize?

    The sign of the New Covenant is the cup, which symbolizes the blood that was shed by our Lord in the
    ratification of the new covenant.

    45.What is meant by the Roman Catholic doctrine of “transubstantiation?”

    The Roman Catholic doctrine of “transubstantiation” means their erroneous teaching that at consecration the literal body and blood of Christ are present in the bread and wine.

    46.What is the name of the position held by the Lutheran Church concerning the elements of the Lord’s Supper, and what does that term mean?

    Consubstantiation is the name of the position held by the Lutheran Church concerning the elements of the
    Lord’s Supper. This term means that the communicant partakes of the true body and blood of Christ in/ ,with, and under the bread and wine. The elements themselves remain unchanged, but the mere partaking of them after the prayer of consecration communicates Christ to the participant along with the elements. It is considered a literal partaking of Christ.

    47 .According to Paul, what do the elements signify?

    According to Paul, the cup is a “sharing in the blood of Christ” and the bread is a “sharing in the body of Christ” ( 1 Cor 10: 16 ). The elements are thus only a symbol of his presence.

    48 .How is it best to view the communion service?

    It is best to view the communion service as primarily a memorial, while at the same
    time acknowledging the presence of Christ in our midst as we partake of the elements which symbolises his
    body and blood.

    49.What are the two conditions of participating in the Lord’s Supper?

    The conditions of participating in the Lord’s Supper are regeneration and a life of obedience to Christ. That regeneration is a condition is evident from the fact that the Lord gave the ordinance to his disciples (Matt. 26:27), the disciples observed it among themselves (Acts 2:42, 46; 20:7; 1 Cor. 11:1822), and each participant is asked to examine himself as to whether or not he is qualified to partake of the communion elements (1 Cor. 11:27-29). That a lif e of obedience is a condition, is evident from the f act that persons who fall into sin are to be excluded from the church (1 Cor. 5:11-13 2 Thess. 3:6, 11-15), as also those who teach false doctrine (Titus 3:10; 2 John 10f.) and promote divisions and dissensions (Rorn. 16:17). Baptism preceded the partaking of the Lord, s Supper in the life of the early church as far as we know, but there is no command to that effect, nor is there any proof that believers were excluded from the Lord’s Supper until they were baptized. Nor is there any proof that local church membership was a condition. This is “the table of the Lord, not the church’s table. This is evident from the fact that the individual is asked to examine himself as to his fitness to come to the table; the church is not authorized to sit in judgment upon believers, except in the case of disorderly conduct, false teaching, or participation in unscriptural practices.

    50.In what areas is the church qualified or authorized to sit in judgement of its members?

    The church is qualified or authorized to sit in judgement of its members in cases of disorderly conduct,
    false teaching or participation in unscriptural practices.

  3. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    David

    Thanks for the latitude to post these simple basic truths on the doctrine of the NT church.

    Detractors may now mock and scoff to thier hearts content, but the above is sound doctrine that can not be refuted

    Those who are interested should now have a comprehensive understanding of what the NT teaches about the CHURCH. If they are not interested, I have discharged my duty to teach the Word in season and out of season.

    51.What are the seven scriptural mandates for the church?
    The seven scriptural mandates for the church are:-
    1) To glorify God
    2) To edify itself
    3) To purify itself
    4) To educate its constituency
    5) To evangelize the world
    6) To act as a restraining and enlightening force in the world.
    7) To promote all that is good

    52.In what three ways do we glorify God?
    We glorify God by :-
    1]worshipping Him ( John 4:23f;Phil 3:3; Rev 22:9)
    2] by prayer and praise [ Psalm 50:23]
    3] by living a godly life [ Kohn15:8; 1Pet 2:9; Titus 2:10]

    53.What are the three responsibilities of the church towards its members?

    The three responsibilities of the church towards its members are to indoctrinate its members, to develop the graces of the Christian life in them , and teach them to co-operate with one another in the service of Christ.

    54.What three things does the NT note as causes for church discipline?

    The three things that the NT names as causes for church discipline are divisions, heresies and immoralities.

    54.What is meant by the church’s obligation to evangelize the world?

    The concept of the church’s obligation to evangelize the world means that the church is debtor to the whole
    world and is therefore under obligation to give the whole world an opportunity to know about him and to
    accept his salvation.

    The great commission directs the church to go into all the world and make disciples of all nations (Matt. 28:19; Luke 24:46-48; Acts 1:8). .

    We know that not all the world will respond to the gospel call, but the church is by duty bound to give the whole world an opportunity to know about him and
    to accept his salvation.

    God is today calling out from among the Gentiles a people for his name (Acts 15:14), and he does it through the church and by his Spirit.

    This is to go on until “the fulness of the Gentiles has come in” (Rom. 11:25). No one knows when that will be, but that is the definite objective of Christ in which the church is to participate.

    This means also that every church should study missions, engage in missionary intercession, missionary contributions, the sending of missionaries and in going forth into the mission fields.

    55.What must be done to begin evangelization?

    Evangelization begins in a study of needs (John 4:28-38; cf. Matt. 9:36-38), and so every church should
    study missions.
    It finds expression in missionary intercession (Matt. 9:38), missionary contributions (Phil. 4:15-18),
    the sending of missionaries (Acts 13:1-3; 14:26; Rom. 10:15),
    and in going forth into the mission fields (Rom. 1: 13 -15; 15:20).

    56.According to the scriptures, what is the church NOT to do?

    According to the scriptures, the church is NOT to win the whole world to Christ, nor to rise to a position of
    world influence in social, economic and political life.

    57.What are the three aspects of the eternal destiny of the church?

    The three aspects of the eternal destiny of the church are that the church will be united with Christ, the church will reign with Christ and the church will be an eternal testimony.

    58.What ideas are involved in the concept of the church’s eternal union with Christ?
    The ideas of fellowship and co-ownership are involved in the concept of the church’s eternal union with Christ

    59.For how long will the church reign with Christ?

    The church will reign with Christ initially in the millenium and then after that for ever.

  4. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @All…

    Please observe “Georgie Porgie” continues to cut-and-paste.

    And GP continues to refuse to answer my questions….

    The empirical is *beautiful*, isn’t it?

    It can tell us all *so* very much….

  5. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    @ac, “Didn’t Jesus say to Peter, “Upon this Rock I will build My Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16: 18).

    This verse of Scripture is the very bed-rock upon which the Catholic church has built its erroneous doctrine of the Pope, and relish in quoting this verse, adding their own false interpretation to it.

    Again, it is vitally important and imperative to look at the Greek text that the Holy Spirit Divinely inspired in God’s Word, the Scriptures.

    First, let us hear carefully what Jesus said in the original Greek text.

    “And I say to thee, thou art Peter…” (v.16a) Now, the Greek work for Peter, is ‘Petros’ a person, masculine. Let us continue with what Jesus next says: “…and upon THIS ROCK…” note carefully, that the Greek word for ROCK, is ‘Petra’ is femine gender, and refers not to a person, BUT, rather to the declaration that Peter had made, just before in verse 16: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

    Therefore, using Peter’s name, as it were, a play upon words, Jesus said to Peter:

    “You are PETROS, and upon this PETRA, I will build My Church” The profound truth that Peter had just confessed, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” (v.16) that very declaration about Jesus Christ, was the very foundation upon which Christ, now says to Peter, “…I will build My Church…” (v.18a)

    The very fact, that in the Greek text from which this translation is derived, the Holy Spirit records Jesus using TWO very different Greek words.

    1) Petros, which He called Peter, Petros is commonly used of a SMALL moveable stone, a mere pebble, as it were.

    2) But, ‘Petra’ means an immovable foundation, which IS Christ Himself, in this instance, the basic truth that Peter had just confessed, the Deity of Christ, (v.16b).

    The Bible tells us plainly, not that the Church is built upon Peter, as Catholicism falsely teaches, but that it is:

    “Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself being the chief corner stone.” (Eph. 2:20). And again, “For other foundation can NO man lay than that which IS laid, which IS Jesus Christ” (1Cor.3:11). Without that foundation the true christian Church could not exist.

    If Jesus had intended to teach that the Church is founded and built on Peter, He would have said something like this:

    “Thou are Peter, and upon you I will build My Church,” or, “Thou art Peter, and upon you I will build My Church. In which case, the Holy Spirit would have recorded in Greek, ‘Thou are PETROS (Peter) and upon you (PETROS) I will build My Church.’

    But, NO, that is NOT what Christ said. Jesus made two complete statements. He said:

    “Thou are Peter, (Petros, small stone)” and “Upon this rock (Petra, change of gender, indicating change of subject) I will build My Church.”

    The whole structure of the Roman Catholic Church, is built on this false and erroneous assumption in Matthew 16: 13-19 that Jesus appointed Peter the first Pope and so established the Papacy. Destroy the primacy of Peter, that the Catholic church holds to, and the very foundation of the Papacy is destroyed.

    Their entire system of a priesthood, depends absolutely upon their claim that Peter was the first Pope at Rome, and that they are his successors. As is shown from the original Greek text in Matthew 16: 13-19, that Jesus did NOT appoint Peter a Pope; and that the New Testament records, particularly Peter’s own writings, show that he never claimed authority over the other apostles, or over the Church, and that that authority was NEVER accorded to him.

    ac, I truly understand what you were taught in the Catholic Chruch, I was there once, I know all about it. I once believed some of what you were fed by these Priests.

    There are books by former Catholic priests, nuns, et al, telling of the extremely painful journey they went through, having to leave the Catholic Church, when they finally read and understood from God’s Word, the Bible, that what they were taught from so-called ‘Traditions’ contradicted the binding authority of God’s Word, the Bible.

    You have so much to un-learn, it is not easy, emotionally!

  6. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @All… Just for your consideration…

    Did Jesus ever hide behind anonymity?

    It’s a rhetorical question…. (And the time stamp is intentional)

  7. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ Mr Zoe

    Brilliant again.
    You analysis of the catholic church is excellent.

    What a pity that you choose not to continue such incisive analysis to the other spin-off of Catholicism – like the protestant lot.
    Trust the bush man, you will find that six is half dozen.

    Whereas you have identified the mother of deception, you continue to be partial to the daughters…. I wonder why….? are you in bed with one of them?

  8. David Avatar
    David

    @Zoe

    Can you tell us about the RC embrace of celibacy?

    Interested in this because we wonder if sex is a natural behaviour to what extent is the RC priest incomplete psychologically?

  9. kiki Avatar
    kiki

    Churches should apologise and ensure children will be safe in their custody.
    Priests should be forced to undertake AIDS tests and placed on a Sexual Register if caught messing around like batty boys.

  10. kiki Avatar
    kiki

    Victims should be able to ‘come out’ and initiate back dated legal proceedings against any bulling priests and the church culture of bulling Ex parte*

    *=(Ex parte is a Latin legal term meaning “from (by or for) one party”).

  11. kiki Avatar
    kiki

    Really Long time
    It’s a Righteous Tune
    it’s a Mountain top Tune
    Sky High, you understand
    Who God bless no man curse
    Nuff of them don’t want to see the ghetto youth rise up and reach first
    Mountain Top

    Never judge a book by its cover
    Unless you read it proper

  12. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Zoe
    Thanks for your erudite exposition and exegesis of Matt. 16: 18, and again demonstrating the purpose of exegesisis and hermeneutics.

    Thanks for demonstrating once more the use of word studies in the proper interpretatin of the Bible.

    Your example is clearly what Martin Luther called “looking under every leaf”.

    Thanks for presenting one of the two beutiful puns in the koine greek in the NT. Such a beautiful nuance I consider in the same vein as my mother’s coconut bread.

    Coupled with my short course on Ecclesiology (doctrine of the church) those who didnt know what the church is according to the clear teaching of the Bible can not say now that they have never heard.

    It is clear that the RC organization lost its so called “authority: in Christendom from the time of the Reformation having corrupted what the early church was, or/ was intended to be.

    We can thank Luther, Zwingli Calvin and others for studying the Word of God for themselves like the saints at Berea (Acts 17:11.) This is what it will take for the true church to regain its influence.

    The early church is said to have continued in the apostles doctrine, and in prayers and in observing the Lords supper, and in sharing what the individuals members had with each other, so that none lacked.

    Thats all they did until Constantine and the RC organization destroyed these simple practices, except in the case of the TRUE CHURCH which went uderground.

    The political RC organization took over, and according to Revelation will regain this political power as predicted in Revelaion 17, at which time it will be destroyed.

    Even now, and for over a decade the spin of groups from the RC whore have started returning to the mother whore; and so fragments of the prediction of Revelation 17 have began to move into place.

    Whereas Zwingli Luther Calvin et al effected only a parrtial reformation; partial because they did not go all the way, but retained much of the trappings of the old whore as is seen in the Anglican church with its caechisms, vestments, sacraments, stations of the cross etc

    The underground church resurfaced at the time of the reformation in Germany as the “Anabaptist” (now called Baptists” and carried on engaging in the form of worship and practices they had recieved by tradition for centuries.
    .
    Darby and his followers (they were trained Anglican ministers) in the early 1800’s returned to a simpler form of Christocentric worship with a government by the membership rather than a hierarchy or presbytery, and an emphasis on Bible study as the basis for faith and practice.

    The early Moravians and Methodists,. Wesleyans or Pilgrim Holiness and Quakers also followed a Bibliocentric and a Christocentric form of worship and practice.

    This can easily be easily discerned from the writings of thier founders/leaders and by casual examination of the lyrics of thier hymns (usually parphrases of passages of scripture as is the case in hundreds of Wesleys hymns.)

    The moral authority of the RC organization is not lost THIS Eastertide, it has been lost long long ago, as a cursory reading of any good text of Chrch History will show.

    Sin in the RC organization has always been rampant, just as there is sin in all other denminations.

    The further away from the guide book that men depart the more sin there is.

    Sin has been around since Adam. Men are said to be concieved in sin; i.e with the sin nature or the propensity to sin.

    The scripture teaches that the heart of men is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.

    There is paedoplilia within the RC organization and also in communities at large. It certainly is so in Central FL and much of the USA.

    There is sin all around. The good news is, however, WHERE SIN DID ABOUND, GRACE DID MUCH MORE ABOUND.

    Paul wrote in Titus 2 thus

    11. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14. Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

    15. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

  13. islander Avatar
    islander

    what a load of self serving , manipulative , rhetorical diatribe, ipsima verbae my ass, this is exactly why our society is going to hell in a hand basket (with the exception of u of course georgie porgie) dem bout de place bulling de little boys and u here preaching shit ( no puns intended) The church along with our government (both de Bees and Dees ) are so out of touch with what is really happening in this world that it only serves to incite and make things worse by relying on igrant ramblings that is so irrelevant to our society it makes me shudder.

    oh by the way answer chris.

    and make your damn posts readable i.e shorter.

    stupses

  14. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    @ David, “Can you tell us about the RC embrace of celibacy?”

    Priests, Monks, and Nuns.

    “If the head be corrupt, so also must be the members. If the Pope be essentially Pagan, what else can be the character of his clergy? If they derive their orders from a radically corrupted source, these orders must partake of the corruption of the source from which they flow…the evidence in regard to the Pagan character of the Pope’s clergy is as complete as that in regard to the Pope himself. There is a direct contrast between the character of the ministers of Christ, ( as taken from the NT) and that of the Papal priesthood..” (The Two Babylons, Or The Papal Worship, by The Late Rev. Alexander Hislop, p. 219).

    David, the entire system of Roman Catholicism, alias Paganism, is rooted in the ancient Babylonian mystery religion, of which clerical celibacy was very much a part of its system.

    As the late Hislop in his masterpiece of research says:

    “But every scholar knows that when the worship of Cybele, the Babylonian goddess, was introduced into Pagan Rome, it was introduced in its primitive form, with its celibate clergy. When the pope appropriated to himself so much that was peculiar to the worship of that goddess, from the very same source, also, he introduced into the priesthood under his authority the binding obligation of celibacy. The introduction of such a principle, had been predicted as one grand mark of the *apostacy* when men should “depart from the faith (body of doctrinal truth) and speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their consciences seared with a hot iron, should FORBID TO MARRY.” (1 Timothy 4: 1, 3a). (Ibid., p. 220) emphasis added.

    Roman Catholicism, from its inception Circa 312 A.D., became a clevery revised system of ancient Babylonianism, couched, veneered and convoluted in Christian terminology, for the express purpose of its ‘father’ Satan, the father of ALL lies, masquerading for the last 1700 years as the supposed head of worldwide Christendom, a LIE from the pit-of-Hell, bringing utter shame and disgrace to the true cause of Christ, and His True Church, which IS NOT to be identified with the Whore of Revelation, the Mother of Harlots.

    Let us hear from God’s Word in the New Testament, in the book of Revelation, as the Lord closed off the Canon of His Word, given to the Apostle John, while exiled on Patmos, circa 90 A.D, bearing in mind, that this was a proleptic vision that John received from the Lord, concerning a religious system that had NOT as yet come into being, Roman Cathoicism.

    “So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of BLASPHEMY, having seven heads and ten horns. The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet ( the official colours of Papal Rome) and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls (The Vatican) having a golden cup FULL of ABOMINATIONS and FILTHINESS of her fornication. And on her forehead a name was written:|

    “MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”

    “I saw the woman DRUNK with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus (The Spanish Inquisition et al). And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.” (Rev. 17: 3-6) emphasis added.

    The Catholic church, is the most wicked, evil, religious/political institution, to ever exist on planet earth.

    The Pedophile priest, is just one of its many horrors, that has pervaded this vile, Santanically inspired institution.

  15. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Zoe
    As a former dabbler in the RC organization Can you tell us about the RC embrace of celibacy?

    The closest I ever got to being a RC is when I was “sprinkled” as a infant in what is now called the RC cathedral.

    It ought to be clear that bullying bishops bulling boys besides being good alitteration is a sign of sin, rather than a psychological defect- but then I am no psychologist either. And we know that it is now common place to chose which sins are not sin but rather just psychological defect

    There is no question as whether “sex is a natural behavior.” And that homosexuality is abnormal or aberrant.

    To address David’s question we must understand that the RC organization has an ungodly penchant to deliberately misinterpret scripture – you can call it myth-interpretation if you like!

    First we must understand that the RC organization started, and then continued to disregard the advice of their “first Pope” who was already dead when the RC organization was begun (pardon my sarcasm), and who said in 2 Peter 1:20

    . Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    Now whereas this scripture teaches that for a proper interpretation of Scriptures one must consult all the other scriptures on the topic (you see the Bible itself teaches how to exegete it as well as basic hermeneutics) . It is in this way that no scripture is to be privately interpreted, i.e it is not to be interpreted in isolation..

    The RC organization deliberately and deceitfully decided that this verse means that NO ONE SHOULD INTERPRET THE BIBLE PRIVATELY. In other words ONLY THE CHURCH SHOULD INTERPRET THE SCRIPTURES FOR AN INDIVIDUAL.

    This is of course a contradiction to the proof texts on this issue that I often cite here, namely John 5:39 on searching, 2 Tim 2:15 where the command is to study (and not that in both cases the verb is in the imperative mood). In addition we read I Acts 17:11 that individuals are to follow the example of the believers at Berea, who compared what they were taught with what the scriptures said. After all Bible teaching is based on the BIBLE.

    The RC organization decided that since Christ was celebate and that Paul seemed to be celebate from what is said in 1 Cor 7 that “priests” should be celebate.

    They totally disregard the fact that their “first Pope” who was already dead when the RC organization was begun (pardon my sarcasm) was married.

    They totally disregard the scriptures in Timothy and Titus which state the qualifications of a church leader (called in the NT pastor= elder= presbyter). These scriptures indicate that church leaders should have only one wife!

    The instruction in Titus that they be lovers of good men means that they be discerners of good men or a discerner of gifted men in the church whose gifts can be pressed into service according to the edict of Ephesians 4:4. Titus 1:8 does not mean that priests should be homosexuals or that bullying bishops should be bulling boys!

    They totally disregard the scriptures in Genesis 2 about marriage, and the fact that it is NOT GOOD that a man be alone. It is noteworthy that in the original Hebrew the words it is do not appear before NOT GOOD. This is a Hebrew way of emphasizing that celibacy is simply NOT GOOD!

    They totally disregard the fact that the OT priests were married! One wonders how Zacharias’ wife got pregnant, according to the RC organization.

    Now there will be morons that opine that 1 Corinthians 7: 1 states …..Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

    But it does not go on to say that bullying bishops be bullying boys either! In fact it explicitly says ….
    2. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

    It says EVERY MAN i.e including priests should get a wife!
    It goes on to say that both husbands and wives should not defraud each other in the matter of sex, less one of the other members of the partnership stray to reap where they have not sown in greener partners!

    3. Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
    4. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
    5. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

    Clearly, celibacy is taught NOWHERE IN HOLY WRIT.

    I personally know former RC priests who joined the Anglican church so that they can get married.

    I hope that you can touch on any scripture that I have missed in this note. If I do please expound, and please exegete any key passages that I have cited on this issue.

    Perhaps you can explain 1 Cor 7:1

  16. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Zoe
    It seems that you were posting while I was writing.

    I have attempted to answer David from a Biblical stand point. I see that you have begun with a historical view point. Most interesting and educational!

    I hope that you can adress some of the scriptures that I have cited and any that I left out.

  17. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    islander

    You are welcome to your opinion. OK

    However, all that I have done is set out the doctrine of the church according to the NT teaching.

    Now you can see what the church ought to be like and what it should inspire to be Now you can see what are its officers its ordinances, how it should function, what is its purpose etc according to the NT teaching, if you are interested. If you are not- just ignore what I wrote.

    If the “church” about which you speak knew and practiced the doctrine of the church according to the NT teaching, they might not be so much out of touch. Don’t you think?

    When the true church did these things, it was noticeable. They had some influence and folk noticed that the group had been with Christ, and the early church members were thus called Christians or followers of “Christ” or followers of the “way.” The true church was also persecuted for what they were doing too. They were persecuted for preaching out against sin. Its all written down in Acts.

    Do you think that the contemporary church would get away with preaching out against greed and avarice, homosexuality, fornication, and the whole list in Mark 7: 21-22 …. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22. Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

    My posts are not at all manipulative, since you can ignore them all together. Neither are they rhetorical, as one of your obvious intelligence ought to know.

    ipsima verbae = the very words themselves, and refers to the fact that the very words themselves in the original languages go a long way in explaining what the Biblical text is saying.

    I have no power over the bullying bishops who bull boys. If I was like Elijah of old, who could call down fire from heaven, perhaps we could join up by exterminating the varmints. You could locate them and I could call down the fire. Wouldn’t that be fun Sir?

    If the church was doing its job, and was reflecting the values of the early church, or even the contemporary underground church that exists in many parts of the world today our government (both de Bees and Dees ) would most likely be thinking more about the good of everyone rather than themselves, and those who bribe and control them, and keep them in office by their financial and other forms of support. But that is the ideal, Utopia, a pipe dream. Isnt it?

    Also just to enlighten you there are many church goes around the world that are well aware and very much with what is really happening in this world. I watch several interesting programs that enlighten me about world events, and their relationship to the eshaton inter alia.

    You say that my ramblings are irrelevant to our society, and you are right! That’s why we have bullying bishops bulling boys still.

    These bishops did not read or heed church doctrine, including the doctrine of the church as summarized in my “load of self serving , manipulative , rhetorical diatribe.”

  18. Avatar
    Anonymous

    Some famous “Roman Catholic” priests (because all and only Roman Catholics do bad things)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_evangelist_scandals

    add to the list:

    Paul Davis (http://www.caribdaily.com/article/172671/celebrity-pastor-charged-with-molesting-young-girls/)

    Jippy Doyle or Apostle T Wayne Bishop, two good Roman Catholics.

    For those who may be interested, celibacy is only required of priests in the Latin (Western) Rite of the Church. Priests are allowed to marry in the Eastern (Orthodox) Rite. There is at least one RC priest in Barbados who is married. He used to be an Anglican priest. There is another RC priest in Barbados who used to be married (before he became priest).His former wife is still alive by the way.

  19. Avatar
    Anonymous

    More “Biblical Roman Catholic” theology

    Prosperity Theology anyone? : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology

    Seems like a certain Christian didn’t make the grade according to this theology since Jesus didn’t bless him with riches!

  20. Avatar
    Anonymous

    The Roman Catholic position on the celibate priesthood is that it is a Church discipline (regulation) for priests in its Latin Rite. It is not a doctrine. It is not a belief of the faith. It is not determined from the Bible. It is determined by the Church, using its own God-given authority. As a Church regulation, it is open to change by the Church at any time, unlike doctrinal truth which was given to the Church by God, and which cannot be changed.

    Why did Paul of Tarsus never marry ? Yet someone posted on BU that the same Paul wrote that EVERY MAN should get married!

  21. The People's Democratic Congress Avatar
    The People’s Democratic Congress

    The case in Antigua and Barbuda where High Court Judge, Ms Louise Blenman, recently annulled the electoral results in three constituency elections in the March, 2009 General Elections in that country, is one case in which many peoples within the English Speaking Caribbean, must and ought see, or for that matter ought continue to see, the matter of legal recourse to their own local High Courts, or to whatever other relevant tribunals ( in the respective legal jurisdictions ), as a fundamental axiomatic legal, constitutional, moral and equitable right of theirs as part of a wider political legitimate dispensation and process that has been established within a system of the rule of law and natural justice anywhere within the region; and furthermore as a right that is being exercised on the basis of any intention to properly settle many issues and disputes surrounding many national or bi-election electoral outcomes in the relevant Courts or tribunals in their respective countries.

    Indeed, this is one and the only set of principal arguments and vindications – out of lesser ones – that can be introjected in this legal case in Antigua and Barbuda – where the Antigua Labour Party (ALP)would have some time ago brought applications in the High Courts of Antigua and Barbuda against the United People’s Party (UPP) questioning – under S. 44 SS 1(a) and 2(a) of the Antigua and Barbuda Constitution – the then membership in the House of Representatives of Antigua and Barbuda of four members who were elected to duly serve four constitutencies in constituency elections that arose out of the 2009 General election, on the grounds that there were, et al, undue influence and non-compliant breaches in certain electoral laws in those contests.

    Well, the fact too is that in relationship to this case – the United People’s Party – which would have realized three of its members’ seats having been declared invalid – has already successfully applied for, and got, a stay of execution until the 16 of April ( BarbadosToday – 1 April, 2010).

    Well, to be clear as to why there were three invalidations when there were four court challenges, the other membership of the House that was questioned – based on the same allegations, by the ALP, and this was in Barbuda, and which has been by Mr. Trevor Walker of the Barbuda Labour Movement, was however declared valid by Madame Justice Blenman.

    Having stated those facts, though, the PDC now turn its attention to some very disturbing, grevious and irresponsible comments attributed to one Peter Wickham, so-called political scientist, in the said BarbadosToday, where Wickham was reported to have stupidly summed up this case as being a part of a trend where some courts (in the said English speaking region ) are aggressive in directly confronting governments.

    Verily, such aforegoing comments are so unwise, insensate, careless and reckless to think of that when one looks at the fact that if one were to properly read into Justice Blenman’s ruling on the case, some of those same reported comments of Wickham in relation to this case, it would be more than certainly clear that Mr. Wickham would have improperly suggested to the greatly politically unread and great politically informed throughout the region, though, that these courts and the presiding officers were the ones who would have brought these cases against the governments and NOT the particular opposition parties.

    BUT THE FACTS ARE SUCH THAT THE PARTICULAR COURTS AND THE PARTICULAR JUDICIAL OFFICERS DID NOT BRING THESE PARTICULAR APPLICATIONS AGAINST THE PARTICULAR EXECUTIVE GOVERNMENTS, AND THEREFORE FOR HIM TO HAVE POSSIBLY MADE THOSE INAPPROPRIATE HYSTERICAL COMMENTS AND TO BE REPORTED AS SAYING SUCH IS TOTALLY REPREHENSIBLE AND REPROACHABLE.

    MR WICKHAM MUST BE TOLD BY THE PDC AND THOSE WHO ARE IN THE KNOW THAT THE COURTS WOULD HAVE BEEN MERELY SEEKING TO CARRY OUT THE CONSTITUTIONAL DUTIES, ADJUDICATING IN SUCH CONTENTIOUS MATTERS, OR WOULD HAVE BEEN MERELY SEEKING TO AND OR WOULD HAVE BEEN APPLYING THE PARTICULAR LOCAL LAWS TO THE FACTS – ACTS OR OMISSIONS – IN THEIR RESPECTIVE JURISDICTIONS.

    Too, what is clear is that these courts – which are the ULTIMATE guardians of the respective national Constitutions – would have also been basing these particular rulings on the facts, and would have also been basing them in support of their adherence to rule of law and in support of their adherence to principles of natural justice. These rulings would have NOT made based on any partial political grounds as Mr. Wickham so disgustingly suggests or imputes. And in some of these cases, bi-elections have already been held. And, therefore, in these cases where bi-elections would have been held or contemplated, say in Jamaica, it would have had to be seen that the decisions of the courts would have had to accepted and upheld by the parties concerned.

    So, clearly Mr. Wickham is being unfair and unreasonable and is so in making false reckless imputations against the character and integrities of those particular judicial officers.

    To add salt to the injuries, Mr. Wickham reportedly went on to state – in the same edition of the BarbadosToday – how, in this Antigua and Barbuda case, the message that was sent by the court was one – which was reinterpreted by BarbadosToday – as challenging the legitimacy of the Balwin Spencer Administration at the national level. Said Wickham: “As far as the individual constituencies are concerned, it has created the question of.. whether or not the the Prime Minister – who derives his power from parliament – can continue to function as prime minister if his seat has been declared null and void. And i think that is really the legal question that needs to be answered”

    What ignorance of the highest order for a so-called political scientist to be reported as saying. Indeed, it could not have been any more absolutely wrong headed and inaccurate than for him to express such. And, it was very fallacious too for this regionalist to argue such bunkum. For, the facts are that the Prime Minister in Antigua and Barbuda, or any where else where the prime minister is head of government in the English Speaking Caribbean, does NOT derive his power from Parliament, but from a specific and historic legalism and constitutionalism that has been created and maintained and practiced in the countries to allow for the office of Prime Minister to function in the governments and in the wider societies. In the Antigua and Barbuda Constitution, see that such centers around and is reinforced by S. 69 SS. (1), SS 2(a), or any other the applicable provision of sub-section 2 -And in the Barbados Constitution see that it is S. 65 SS. (1) alone around which such is centered and reinforced.

    Take careful note too that the Antiguan and Barbudan Constitution clearly states in the first of three possible conditions under which a prime minister is chosen by the Governor General, that the person who becomes prime minister must be a member of the House who is the LEADER in the House of the political party that commands the support of the majority in the House, whereas the Barbados Document states in the one and only instance that it deals with such a matter that it is the person who in the Governor General’s judgement is best able to command the confidence of a majority of members of that House.

    Any how back to Wickham, in the context of regional prime ministerial politics the Prime Minister only becomes prime minister because he is the person who in the eyes of the Governor General is the person who ( through out his tenure) is best able to command the confidence of the majority of the members of the House of Assembly ( NOT THE PARLIAMENT, and yet still does NOT do any thing ( through out his tenure ) to the extent that would lead to his prime ministership being revoked by the Governor General – or any thing that helps cause him to lose the confidence of the majority – or any thing that HELPS CAUSE HIM TO BE NOT a member of the House of Assembly, et al. What Wickham must realize too is that the House of Assembly is NOT the Parliament – which itself does include the Senate.

    So, contrary to the foolish nonsense that Wickham is suggesting that the Prime Minister of Antigua and Barbuda must be viewed as an elected position (via the last of the above two comments), the position or office of Prime Minister has NOT been suspended, nullified or voided, NOR has it been legally constitutionally affected by the decisions of Justice Blenman, and could NEVER have been, but it is the electoral process which help caused Spencer to be elected into the House – as an elected parliamentarian – that has been successfully and rightly challenged – as proved by the rulings of Justice Blenman – and NOT the Office of Prime Minister or the Prime Minister himself.

    Too, the questioning of the membership of the Antigua and Barbuda House could NOT have gone forth to the Prime Minister nor his office nor addressed to the Prime Minister or his office, and therefore could not have possibly been subject to the rulings of the Justice Blenman, simply because Mr. Spencer – as Prime Minister – is NOT elected to the role of Prime Minister in that country. Simple as that!!

    Also, for him to be reported to be saying that because Mr. Spencer is an elected House member and Prime Minister at the same time too, and that because his seat would have been declared null and void, and that the latter created a problem for the prime minister in the context of national governance and which for him (Wickham) would have meant that there was a political problem that would have had to be answered, shows clearly that Wickham is totally confusing the person with the main roles he plays at the same time – in this regard, as a parliamentarian and prime minister, and with the political governmental significances of these two roles in relationship to party politics and party government , by his using a very narrow backward relativist approach rather than using an broader informed absolutist approach.

    Penultimately, while we have just stated such positions, and in the way how we did on this Antigua and Barbuda situation, such does NOT mean that we in the PDC do NOT realize that there is a great need for fundamental changes to the Constitutions of the countries of the English speaking Caribbeam to make them more suited to modern times and circumstances. For, we in the PDC know that in Barbados and other parts of this said sub-region, such changes for better are absolutely and direly needed more than ever before as we seek to move ahead in this 21 st Century. Hence, it is totally unacceptable and disgraceful that in Barbados, in Antigua and Barbuda and in the other English Speaking Terruitories where this is done – one still sees disgusting situations where Ministers are still Members of Parliaments/Legislatures which are themselves FAR FAR FROM BEING representative, numerically speaking, and FAR FAR FROM BEING representative politically speaking of the people, and wherefore only a few are able to debate and pass legislation in their respective countries.

    These are the kinds of issues that the majority of our peoples within this subregion ought to be seriously looking at – with a view to fundamentally reforming rebalancing – and ought to be looking at too with regard to the fact that so-called pollsters like Mr. Peter Wickham and certain sections of the media in our sub-region are whenever so-called national public opinion polls are done, findings produced, and aspects of which are published in those particular sections of the media, are so doing these things in the contexts whereby there are despicable violations in the principles of free and fair elections being held in these countries, where there is an enormous amount of undue influencing of of the way how voters vote or dont vote as a direct result of or on account of some of the so-called poll findings that are released and published in these countries.

    Surely, Mr. Wickham and the relevant other regional pollsters and some of their polling tactics must be critically looked at by the majority of peoples in this sub-region with a view to bringing them to heel for continuing to do untold damage to the voting process.

    PDC

  22. Avatar
    Anonymous

    There is complete agreement among evangelicals:

    http://www.theologicalstudies.org/page/page/1572472.htm

    ” Less than one out of every ten believers possess a biblical worldview as the basis for his or her decision-making or behavior”. probably Roman Catholics!

    ” By raising the issues of church history, authority, unity, and certainty, Roman Catholics have seen some success in converting evangelicals to Catholicism. Will this trend continue and how will evangelical leaders respond? “

  23. islander Avatar
    islander

    hahahahaha , well written, however, i dare say a perfect world would be based on the golden rule , not so ?

    I also dare say that a lot of your writing here IS based verbatim on the bible, which i think is filled with out dated rhetoric, blasphemous ? no i dont think so, i just dont think the written word INSPIRED by god WRITTEN by man is infallible and thus shouldnt be followed to a T.

    I also feel the church “” has been used as a tool of control over the years by those in power and all that has happened is that a more educated and enlightened world society have now questioned and moved away from its clutches, pedophile priests playing pouchie poking ( hey i can use a literary tool too ) is nothing new to the RC, its just being highlighted now by an unafraid world society

    Tell me, answer a question I have always wondered about,

    All those Billions of muslims / Hindus etc who have never been “lucky” enough to be born into the world of christianity and have now crossed over to the great beyond, never been baptized and worshiped allah, budha etc , are they condemned to a fiery hell for just being born on the wrong side of the big pond ?

    U see my obviously well read and educated brother, there are so many holes in the bucket we call the church (just generalising) I understand when u say, urs is not to understand, but to have faith and believe

  24. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Anonymous ma boy

    You are a boy I respect,, but with due respect your attempt at an apologetic does not hold much water, even though you mention things that we know to be true. I will have to refute your “doctrine” Sir because unlike the requirement in Titus 2:8, it is not sound, Sir!

    Please note that I have no beef against any one or their denomination. My interest is in understanding the Word and teaching it accurately and following it as best as I can, with in the limits of still being in possession of the old sin nature, with which ALL of us were born and inherited via Adam as taught in Romans 5

    No one said or implied that ALL OR ONLY Roman Catholics do bad things

    I expressly said at the very beginning that there were men involved in homosexuality in high places in our society though not Roman Catholics.

    I have often extolled the virtues and scholarship of Marti Luther who was first and foremost a RC priest.

    I have also noticed that paedophilia was rampant all over including Central FL where I live and in the mighty USA, which is on the way into oblivion as all nations that embraced homosexuality in the past have done. Whether folk believe this or not. This was the case in Babylon, the Medes & Persians, the Greeks and the Roman empire.

    Your sarcasm about Jippy Doyle or Apostle T Wayne Bishop is unneccessary, as it has been pointed out that
    SIN ABOUNDS.
    THAT ALL ARE SINNERS.
    THAT THE HEART IS DECEITFUL
    THAT MEN WERE ALL CONCIEVED WITH A SUN NATURE

    This includes Jippy Doyle and Apostle T Wayne Bishop and Paul Davis as well as you, me, teachers of prosperity theology and bullying bishops in the RC church who continue today to bull boys now as they have been doing for centuries!

    Prosperity Theology IS TOTALLY UNBIBLICAL AND I HAVE SAID THAT ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASION ON BU AS WELL AS BEGGING FOR MONEY AND THE CONCEPT OF “SOWING SEED” IN MINITRIES. These are all contrary to the teaching of how missionary work should be done as taught in 3 JOHN and how the NT church should give as taught in 2 Corinthians 8 &9.

    Note that the authority of any church to act is given by NT church practice generally. Note that the NT doctrine stresses the individual PRIESTHOOD OF ALL BELIEVERS and NOT THE ORDINATION OF PRIESTS AS SEEN IN CERTAIN DENOMINATIONS.

    Indicate where the NT teaches the ordination of priests, a catechism, confirmation of individuals, seven sacraments, stations of the cross, prosperity theology, or that priests should be celibate.

    The church BEFORE ITS CORRUPTION by Constantine and the RC organization and the church AFTER THE REFORMATION was/is ordered by the principle of BIBLIO SOLO. The concept that the BIBLE IS THE SOLE AUTHORITY FOR FAIKTH AND PRACTICE.
    NOTE THE CHURCH’s MANDATE AND RULES AND REGULATIONS IS GIVEN IN THE BIBLE. IT IS NOT GIVEN BY THE CHURCH. Hence the problem today in “churches” here there and everywhere of all denominations!

    THE PRINCIPLE REASON FOR THE PREDICTED APOSTASY SEEN IN ALL DENOMINATIONS IS A TURNING AWAY FROM THE FAITH ONCE DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS (Jude 3)

    The Roman Catholic position on the celibate priesthood is not supported by any NT scripture Sir. If celibacy is not a doctrine. If it is not a belief of the faith (the pistis) that was once delivered to the saints. If it is not part of what the NT calls the apostles doctrine. If it is not determined from the Bible, it ought not to be practiced!

    NO church can determine its doctrine or practice or its authority and say it is its own God-given authority according to the doctrine of the church as clearly set out in the NT Sir. This is why the “church” as expressed via the several denominations HAS FAILED!
    All denominations are behaving as when there was no king in Israel and every man did that which was right in his sight as opined in Judges.

    How can a Church regulation that is based on the Bible (as it ought to be) be open to change by the Church at any time?

    All church regulations of this sort are doctrinal truth which was given to the Church by God, and which cannot be changed.

    Note that in BOTH passages that list the qualification of a bishop/pastor/elder that the men who hold this office were expected to be the husband of one wife- not routinely bulling boys! I am purposefully this week end using Bajan here cause wunnuh don’t like the Greek or Hebrew! OK?

    Note also that the qualifications to be met to be a bishop/pastor/elder in the local church is the behavior to be exhibited by ALL THE MEN IN A LOCAL CHURCH!

    Read I Corinthians 7 and you will see why Paul of Tarsus never marred. Did he say this was a regulation? Or doctrine?

    Note that I did not post on BU that the same Paul wrote that EVERY MAN should get married, because HE DID NOT SAY SO!

    Paul said that it was better to marry than to burn (i.e to LUST which is sin). He said men ought to marry rather than commit fornication. READ WHAT THE TEXT ACTUALLY SAYS!

    There is NOT complete agreement among evangelicals because evangelicals are men! Also the church is to be a UNITY not UNIFORM. Read Ephesians and embrace that concept Sir. And that is not semantics. These are two different words (the ipsimae verbae again with different meanings!)

    Both Gene Getz and Ray Stedman have written good books to explain this concept of the life of the “body” as discussed by Paul in Ephesians 4.

    If “Less than one out of every ten believers possess a biblical worldview as the basis for his or her decision-making or behavior” then all this means is that 9/10 believers are wrong, and have been poorly taught or don’t understand what it means to be a believer, or a myriad of other reasons.

    And yes so called believers who are not grounded and rooted in the faith as commanded in Collossians 2 might defect to not only the RC organization but even to the other cults.

    And yes this trend is expected to continue Sir. Paul taught it Jesus taught it. Paul warned the Ephesian elders about such in Acts 20. Peter, Jude and Jude also taught about apostasy Sir. And it is going on right now Sir. Those who have not stood for the truth and those who have itching ears are expected to fall for “the lie” and error Sir. This is clearly taught in the NT Sir.

    The preparation for the fulfillment of the prediction of Revelation 17 is well on the way, and John did teach in 1 John 2 that they went out from us because they were not of us in reference to apostates.

    Re Will this trend continue YES IT WILL Just as the Jews are going back to Jerusalem. Apostates will perform as predicted by Peter in 2 Peter 2:22 fall But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
    RE how will evangelical leaders respond? They will let them go Sir? It is expected from scripture that certain things will happen.

    What evangelical leaders must do is accept the prodigal sons who are also returning to the fold. You see pigs always go back to the pig pen but real sons don’t belong in the pig pen so they always tend to head back home to the Fathers house. That’s how JVernon McGee puts it, and I alike it!

    The relevance of setting out the basics of the doctrine of the church should now be apparent, because it gives a framework with which to compare.

    Evangelicals who do not adhere to the tenets of the NT teaching for and about the church are just as wrong as bullying bishops who bull boys!

  25. David Avatar
    David

    @Anonymous 2010/04/05 at 1:58pm

    Thanks for bringing the other perspective to the subject of celibacy in the RC. Your explanation does raise the question, if the sexual misdeeds of RC priests is causing ‘issues’ why not abandon the RC policy of celibacy and chart a new path for the Church? If the RC were business it would be considered a smart PR move.

  26. ac Avatar
    ac

    @zoe
    Ref;commentApril4/1141PM
    The word “ROCK” stands for Boldness , Strength, Power and a myraid of different words that showsthe ability to get things done. Having said that Jesus saw these qualities within Peter. Therefore He knew that Peter would have been the better person to execute the Church. Peter did go to Rome and did establish the Church which today is known as the RC. I do believe that the RC is correct in their interpretation.

  27. Avatar
    Anonymous

    David

    It is absurd to think that by allowing priests to marry that this will curb the incidences of child molestation. It doesn’t stop this wickedness from happening in other churches or situations where priests, pastors and childminders are allowed to marry. The Church will have to be much more discriminating in the selection of persons for priesthood bearing in mind that such wicked people (who may present a very innocent face) are attracted to professions where opportunities for contact with children exist. The teaching profession probably has a few sickos hiding among the many other decent teachers. The difference between the teaching profession and the church is that it is accepted that such sad possibilities can occur so both parents and schools exercise a measure of vigilance that reduce the number of cases of abuse. The church is probably loath to undermine the authority and standing of its priests in the eyes of its members. Unlike the teacher who provides instruction in say English a priest is a representative of God (so they say)! Common sense tells me that I should trust no one and to exercise appropriate vigilance and management of all situations where my children are in the company of adults who are not close family members. The image and standing of priests are not my concern!

    That said I strongly believe that the vast majority of priests, pastors etc in ALL churches (including the Roman Catholic Church) are good decent persons. I also strongly believe that the Roman Catholic Church is disturbed and saddened that these wicked things have happened and not because these have become public. However instead of instigating a good house cleaning and put appropriate management practices in place, the Church chose to cover up so as to save face and hopefully maintain that psychological control over its members. Allowing priests to marry would actually further undermine the standing of priests. It would be acknowledgment that not only are priests capable of sinful carnal desires, they act out on such.

  28. David Avatar
    David

    @Anonymous 2010/04/05 at 6:10pm

    Your comment does not explain why the RC has been dogged by the problem of priests molesting boys more than others neither does it explain why the leadership of the RC has swept a lot of this matter under the rug.

  29. Avatar
    Anonymous

    A disclaimer; I am NOT Roman Catholic and unless otherwise indicated I am speculating on the matter just as other posters.

    I believe that I implicitly answered your second query. The answer to your first question relates to relative size of the Roman Catholic Church to other denominations as well as the enormous infrastructure of orphanages, schools, clinics and youth clubs operated by the church. Couple this with the role of the priest which allows for close interaction between priest and members (confession, catechism classes, serving at the altar etc), the culture of supremacy of the priesthood, unquestioned authority of priests etc all conspired to facilitate these sordid deeds.

    The Church I suspect is covering up (just as it tried to shut up Galileo because inter alia by supporting Copernicus he raised doubts about the claim that the Church is inerrant in all matters) it cannot accept the public acknowledgment of fallible priests. How will it justify confession of sin and more critically absolution from sin by someone likely to be even more sinful?! Old habits and claims die hard.

  30. ac Avatar
    ac

    Maybe it is a matter of where legally they are told to keep quiet. While morally it leaves the Church in a bad light.

  31. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    @ David, the Roman Catholic church, IS corrupted ‘spiritually’ from its vast dogma, which vitiates the absolute, self authenticating authority of God’s Word, the Bible.

    Therefore, the sex-scandal of Pedophilic priests, is just another festering sore within the this worldwide paganistic, religious.political institution. The RC church CANNOT be cleaned up; its like trying to clear up the ‘Maffia’ in New York, to make it an honest ‘Mob’ can you have an honest crook?

    The very core of the RC institution, is its sacerdotal, sacrificing Priestcraft, based and built upon the ancient Babylonian priestcraft, NOT on the authourity of God’s Word as found in the New Testament, where there IS NO sacerdotal, sacrificing office of any priest whatsoever.

    The Sacrifice of the Mass.

    At the very center of the RC church, is the daily sacrifice of the Mass, where the priest stand before his deceived followers, himself deceived, and proceeds to perfom the miracle of ‘Transubstantiation’ where the RC church believes that the ‘wafer’ bread, and the wine, become the ‘body’ and ‘blood’ of Christ, which is then offered to God, for the sins of the living and the deads.

    This so-called ‘Sacrifice’ of the Mass, is a diabolical perversion of The Lord’s Supper, where as Jesus instituted on the night before His crucifixion, using the elements of unleavened bread, and the ‘fruit of the vine’ grape juice, as symbols of His broken body, and shed blood, for the remission of sins; the Catholic Mass, is rooted in pagan ‘Witchcraft’ where Catholics are taught, that they ‘Eat’ and ‘Drink’ salvation in the ritualistic ‘Mass.’

    This is a vast subject, and I can only give here, some pertinent facts exposing this fradulent perversion of the ‘Lord’s Supper.’

    In the New York Catechism we read: “Jesus Christ gave us the sacrifice of the Mass to leave His Church (RC) a visible sacrifice which continues His sacrifice on the cross until the end of time. The Mass is the same sacrifice as the sacrifice of the cross. Holy Communion IS the receiving of the ‘body’ and ‘blood’ of Jesus Christ under the appearance of bread and wine.”

    The creed of Pope Pius IV, which is one of the official creeds of the Roman Church says: “I profess that in the Mass is offered to God a true, proper, and propitiatory sacrifice [that is, a sacrifice which satisfies the justice of God and so offsets the penalty for sin] for the living and the dead; and that in the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist there is truly, really, and substantially, the BODY and BLOOD, together with the SOUL and DIVINITY of our Lord Jesus Christ, and that there is a conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the BODY, and of the whole substance of the wine into the BLOOD, which the Catholic Church call transubstantiation.”

    The Council of Trent declared: “The sacrifice [in the Mass] is identical with the sacrifice of the Cross, inasmuch as Jesus Christ is a priest and victim both. The only difference lies in the manner of offering, which is bloody upon the cross and bloodless on our altars.”

    A Roman Catholic, John A. O;Brian, whose books are widely read says: “The Mass with its colourful vestments and vivid ceremonies is a dramatic re-enactment in an unbloddy manner of the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary” (The Faith of Millions, p. 382).

    Let us hear some more of the blasphemous pronouncements from within Catholicism on the Mass.

    The doctrine of Transubstantiation and the power of the priests is clearly stated by Liguori in the following words:

    “With regard to the power of the priests over the body of Christ, it is of faith that when they pronounce the words of consecration , the incarnate God has OBLIGED Himself to OBEY and come into the hands under the sacremental appearance of bread and wine. We are struck with wonder when we find that in OBEDIENCE to the words of His priests -Hoc est corpus meum- (This is my body) – God Himself descends on the altar, that He comes whenever they call Him, and as often as they call Him, and places Himself in their HANDS, even though they should be His enemies. And after having come He remains, entirely at their DISPOSAL and they MOVE Him as they please from one place to another. They may, if they wish, shut Him UP in the tabernacle, or expose Him on the altar, or carry Him for the food of others. Besides, the power of the priest surpasses that of the Blessed Virgin because she cannot absolve a Catholic from even the smallest sin” (The Dignity and Duties of the Priest),

    When the Roman priest consecrates the wafer it is then called the ‘host,’ and they worship it as God. But if the doctrine of transubstantiation is false, which it certainly IS, then the ‘host’ is no more the body of Christ than is any other piece of bread. And, if the soul and divinity of Christ are not present, which they are Not, then the worship of it is sheer IDOLATRY, of the same kind as that of pagan tribes who worship fetishes, which is where this Babylonian idolatry came from, and which the Popes embrace, as it vividly demonstrated in the sacrifice of the Mass, Witchcraft disguised under the utter peversion of the Lord’s Supper.

    This vile perversion of the Lord’s Supper, keeps Catholics coming back ever so faithfully, as they are told you must EAT and DRINK the body and blood of the Lord, apart from which there is no salvation!

    The Finality Of Christ’s Sacrifice on Calvary.

    That Jesus’ sacrifice on Calvary was absolutely sufficient and complete in the ONE offering of Himself, and that it was NEVER to be repeated, is set forth in Hebrews, chapters 7, 9, and 10. There we read:

    “Who needeth NOT daily, like those high priest (OT and Catholic priest) to offer up sacrifices first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people: for this He did ONCE for ALL, when He offered Himself” (Heb. 7:27). emphasis added.

    “…through His own blood, entered in ONCE for ALL into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption” (Heb. 9:12)

    “Apart from the shedding of blood there is no remission…Nor yet that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest (OT, and Catholic) entereth into the holy place year by year (Catholic priest DAILY) with blood not his own; else must He (Jesus) often have suffered since the foundation of the world; but now ONCE at the end of the ages hath He (Jesus) been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself…Christ also, having been ONCE offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that waite for Him unto salvation” (Heb. 9: 22-29) emphasis added.

    “By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL. And every priest indeed standeth day by day (OT and Catholic priest) ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, the which can NEVER take away sins; be He (Jesus) when He had offered ONE sacrifice for sins for EVER, sat down on the right hand of God; henceforth expecting till His enemies be made the footstool of His feet. For by ONE OFFERING He hath perfected for EVER them that are sanctified.” (Heb 10: 10-14) emphasis added.

    NOTICE, that throughout these verses the statement “ONCE for ALL” which declares the completeness and finality, of Jesus’ ONE time sacrifice of Himself on Calvary, which precludes repetition, as Christ’s work on the cross was PERFECT and DECISIVE. It constituted ONE historic event which need NEVER to be repeated, and which in fact CANNOT be repeated. The language is perfectly emphatic: “He offered ONE sacrifice for sins for EVER” (10:12).

    Paul says that “Christ being raised from the dead dieth NO MORE” (Rom 6:9); and the writer of the Epistle to the Hebews says that “By ONE offering He hath perfected for EVER them that are sanctified” (10:14)

    Christ’s priesthood is contrasted with that of the Old Testament priests, and we are told that the ancient priesthood has ceased and that the priesthood of Christ has taken its place. We are told in the Word of God, that Jesus has sat down as His work in finished. He therefore, NEVER descends from His exalted place to come as the Catholic priest believe when they call Him, to be further sacrificed upon the altars of Roman Catholic paganism. (Roman Catholicism)

    The verses just quoted completely contradict all that the Catholic church dogmatized in this utterly unbscriptural nonsense of the sacrifice of the Mass, keeping Catholic masses of people in servitude, to a blatantly unholy, paganistic ritual, that is in fact a Witchcraft ceremony, disguised under the false, erroneous office of a ‘priestcraft’ that has absolutely no warrant whatsoever from the New Testament.

  32. ac Avatar
    ac

    @Zoe
    So far you have lambasted almost every religious institution /church on the varoius religious blogs you have comment. I guess the church that you are attending is “THE TRUE CHURCH”

  33. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Islander

    I agree with you that the golden rule is a good rule. I don’t know if it could be perfectly implemented so that we could have a perfect rule, since we still have to deal with the sin nature in all of us.

    “pedophile priests playing pouchie poking” is perfect piece of prose Sir.
    In fact I would even rate it above “bullying bishops bulling boys” because of its novelty.

    I don’t agree with you that the bible is filled with out dated rhetoric nor do I think that you are blaspheming. I think that you don’t understand. If the Bible was once or at any time valid, it out to be valid and valuable now. Much of the Law is the basis for many legal systems around the world man. I am sure that you know that.

    If ever there was a time that we need to follow and believe the Bible is now, man.

    Your belief that the Bible is not inspired by God and that it is not infallible or that it should not be followed to a T is your opinion- one with which I do not agree. But you don’t claim to be a believer, a theologian or a Christian. As I said earlier if we were all following the Word to a T, things would be better all around.

    The thing that is laughable and ironic Sir is that folk who claim to be believers, theologians and Christians believe as you do! Whereas, I can and will excuse you and your erroneous view, I cant do so for these morons!

    I think that the aberrant ways of RC priests has always been known and highlighted but I think that also the technology today allows society to know or hear even more than was once revealed. In addition there are some very aggressive in your face journalists around today, that will try to dig p any dirt they can. A good point was the Tiger Woods saga. The man just hit his car into a tree here in Central Florida on private property and the police and press hounded him down until it was revealed that he was having extra curricular sex. Now in Bim we now that that is literally par for the course. The little men do it and the big shots doing it including the “pouchie poking” too!

    Re your remark about “there are so many holes in the bucket we call the church (just generalising).” May I say that there is a tendency to label everything that sounds religious “church” or Christian, or “evangelical”. Consequently, it makes it difficult to often grasp what the issues are about, especially when no definitions are given. That is why I tried to give a brief survey of what the Bible teaches about the various parameters about the church. If you don’t accept the Bible, we cant argue about the “church” as defined in the NT. If you do accept the Bible, than we need to examine what you think or what I think about this “church” or that “church” or about church practices here and there by a particular standard or plumb line. I think this is what Zoe and Dictionary were doing with respect to the two cults they were discussing earlier this year

    As you know from your service in medical spheres heart sounds or BP readings properly done or certain blood tests are standards, by which certain parameters can be compared. So when I hear certain clowns on this forum talking about the “church” this and “Christianity” that, I wonder what they are talking about. That is why we need a common exegetic framework and hermeneutic framework for Bible interpretation.

    Denominations are a diabolical device designed by the devil to divide the true church, and derail its progress. Persecution caused the early church and the contemporary underground church to grow and to get strong. So the devil corrupted the church by marrying state and the watered down evil organization called the RC organization. The true church has never got back to where it was prior to AD 313, and it never will- except for the saints around the glassy sea with the four and twenty elders.

    Mr H Sir! I will do you what Jesus did to the Jewish leaders of his day. I will answer your question with a question. What does it profit all those who though “lucky” enough to be born into the world of “Christianity” and have crossed over to the great beyond, and who have never been baptized or who have never bowed the knee to Christ as required according to Phillipians 2? Are they condemned to a fiery hell for being born into the world of “Christianity” and yet did not avail themselves of the benefits of its teachings?

    And I have not said anywhere that mine is not to understand, but to have faith and believe. I understand much that I believe. There is also much that I don’t understand. e.g especially Why could I not be Elijah! I have also had trouble with electriity and magnetism inter alia

  34. FACTS Avatar
    FACTS

    TO: AC –
    On the matter of Peter being the Head of the CC, I think you are totally off-course.
    The church cannot be “built or establlished on a man”. Christ is the Head of the church. It can only be established on Him.

    TO: ZOE,
    You’ve made some very solid points that have been openly documented in modern books and can be read by all and sundry.

    I totally agree with you, the CC can never be cleaned up. It will have to change some of its basic tenets. But the cry from the vatican is that “it can never err”.

    It is not a church; but rather, a “religious movement”. But so is Rastafarianism.

  35. FACTS Avatar
    FACTS

    The CC is very good at propaganda and has skillfully downplayed and hidden its murderous deeds of the past (which includes the not too distant past)

    The church will never, and has no intention of changing.

    These open revelations of nefarious deeds will all blow away shorlty.

    From its inception in the 3rd century, AD, it has always had to battle with what it preaches and how it acts.

    This institution is certainly not representative of Christianity, or Christ’s modus operandi on how the church should function.

  36. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Just as Galatians exposes the error upheld by the SDA cult, a proper exegesis of Hebrews 7 8 9 exposes the error taught by the RC organization about the solitary substitutionary offering made by Christ as a propitiation for thesins of the whole world. SUFIICIENT FOR ALL
    BUT EFFICIENT ONLY TO THOSE WHO WILL BELIEVE

    The sweet part of Hebrews is of course in Hebrews 10 when Paul introduces his therefore or wherefore (here it is a therefore) to transition from his doctrinal teaching to the devotional or duty aspect. He gives what some call the lettuce verses (let us) with the hortotory subjunctives in the greek!

    Of course to even understand a few verses in Hebrews one must understand many parts of the OT especially the Tabernacle. In Hebrews Paul is definitely exegeting OT scriptures and explaining how these OT scriptures relate to the Church Age or the Age of Grace.

    Paul is showing us that the OT is indeed in the NT revealed!

    Good piece of work there Zoe. Teach the Word Zoe. In season and out of season

  37. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    FACTS

    You got it wrong man.

    Even though Acts 2 makes it very clear that the NT church was started in Jerusalem at Pentecost, dont you think that it is more reasonable to believe that Peter with his rocky attributes went all the way to Rome about 280 years later after he had been dead over 200 years to be the first Pope?

    FACTS I think we have to rethink our position man.
    Forget I cant tell the truth on BU. Only certain folk can challenge certain folk here, or the blo will be shut down. Watch now LOL

  38. ac Avatar
    ac

    @Facts

    Never mind you are not getting your facts straight when you make a response to a comment. I never stated that Peter was the Head of The Church.

  39. Ready Done Avatar
    Ready Done

    How did the church trick so many people?

    First they tell you that God is perfect.( true)

    Then they tell you you are not perfect.(not true, how can a perfect being create an imperfect being)

    Then they tell you god does not care about you enough to talk to you.(not true god is your conscience )

    Then they tell you that god does not talk because he left instructions called the bible.(maybe he did but God still talks to you every day and any thing is better form the source)

    Then they write what they want you to do in the bible, and say any thing different is anti god.( the bible is purported to be of God, therefore they say we should follow blindly, i am taking my interpretation of what God tells me daily over some mans interpretation from hundreds of years ago that i never meet)

    God is good. Just talk to him like he is next to you, because he is, he will talk back you just got to listen not for words but for actions.

    Remember God speaks with actions

  40. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    Forget I cant tell the truth on BU. Only certain folk can challenge certain folk here, or the blo will be shut down. Watch now LOL

    @ GP…

    So are you telling lies then??
    This constant sniping by you really is sickening, follow your mandate, stop dropping to this level man!!!

  41. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    `Hi Techie

    I always enjoy your stellar contributions to the blogs
    Am I not correct in saying that “Only certain folk can challenge certain folk here, or the blog will be shut down.” LOL

    Cant I mock and scoff too? Cant I descend to the level often or normally seen on BU Techie ma boy? Cant I be “ordinary”.

    When folk challenge and scoff and mock stellar 3/10 teaching with low down lies was that sickening to you Sir?

    My mandate Sir is now to inject some sarcasm into my prose as I enjoy the lattitude given me (which no one else apparently gets on BU) to express my views.

    Dont want to be too stuffy and academic now do we?

    You can off course appreciate that Peter could not have started the church in Rome 200 hundred years after he most likely died, can you? You are not that dumb to see that or to see that the NT states in Acts that the church started at Pentecost in Jerusalem.

    Now one can not “agree to disagree and move on” when the clear teaching of the scripotures is contradicted, can we. LOL

    Do you think that Dictionary found the constant animosity and hatred adressed to him for months by the so called BU family sickening? I did.

    Do you see how it looks and feels?.

    Do you think that your interjections that bring nothing of substance to the discussion are sickening Sir? I do. But do I tell you that?

    Did I expect you to interject to my sarcasm. Yes and you did ………..and right on cue.

    Am I ROTFLMAO Yes

    About 20 years ago one of my senior nurses told me two things. She said
    1 You can not always tell the truth Dr. People dont like it when you tell the truth.

    2 You must not be always right Dr. People dont like it when you are always right Dr.

    So I plan to be an “:ordinary” person on BU and use Bajan jargon and engage in “challenging” and “applying pressure” . “I am surprised” that you are “bickering” and so “thick skinned” and that you didnt realize that BU is not a “Sunday School.” I am just “putting foward my points with vigor” Techie.

    I am trying to be “ordinary.” Cant you see that? Guess what Techie. Its great fun too! I love it!

    Oh BTW Techie it saddens me that you could not find anything else that I said in my 3/10 teching to comment on in your advancing the discussion.

    Sniping Techie? I thought that was something done by sharp shooters. I am not a sniper Techie. I only shot a rifle once, and surprised the range officer (and myself) that I shot a half inch! But I never pursued sniping Techie?

  42. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    The Roman Catholic Priesthood.

    It is imperative to continue exposing the utter fallacy of the ‘Priestcraft’ within Catholicism, fradulently instituted literally hundreds of years after the Apostolic, and Post Apostolic era, for which there is absolutely NO New Testament warrant whatsoever.

    As Dr. Loraine Boettner, in his thorough work, ‘Roman Catholicism, correctly points out:

    “The sacrifice of Christ was therefore a “ONCE-FOR-ALL” sacrifice which only He could make, which cannot be repeated. By the very nature it was FINAL and COMPLETE. It was the work of Deity, and so cannot be repeated by man any more than can the work of creation. By that ONE sacrifice the utmost demands of God’s justice were FULLY and FOREVER satisfied. Final atonement has been acomplished! No further order of priests is needed to offer additional sacrifices or to perpetuate that one. His was the ONE sacrifice to end ALL sacrifices. Let all men now look to the ONE sacrifice on Calvary! Any continuing priesthood and any “unbloody repetition of the mass,” which professes to offer the same sacrifice that Christ offered on Calvary, is in reality merely a sham and recrudesence of Judaism within the Christian Church.”

    “The abolition of the priestly caste which through the old dispensation stood between God and man, was dramatically illustrated at the very moment that Christ DIED ON THE CROSS. When He cried, “IT IS FINISHED,” a strange sound filled the temple as the veil that separated the sanctuary from the holy of holies was TORN from top to bottom. The ministering priests found themselves gazing at the TORN veil with wondering eyes, for God’s hand had removed the curtain and had opened the way into the holy of holies, symbolizing by the act that NO longer did man have to approach Him through the mediation of a priest, but that the way of access to Him is NOW open to all through JESUS CHRIST, and Him Alone.” (Roman Catholicism, p. 49) emphasis added.

    When we understand the eternal significance of Jesus’ ONCE-FOR-ALL sacrifice on Calvary, for the sins of mankind, the ultimate sacrifice, paid in FULL, by the Second Person of the Eternal Godhead, in order to completely satisfy the holy and just requirement of Almighty God, the Father, allowing mankind for the first time, to approach the Father, through Jesus, the SOLE Mediator between God and man, emphatically repeated over and over again in New Testament Scripture, and sealed in His Canon, the Word of God; and to see what Roman Catholicism then DID, hundreds of years after, by falsely recreating a mediating priesthood, in complete violation of Jesus’ ONCE-FOR-ALL sacrifice, denying multitudes the DIRECT access to the Father, made through Jesus only, once-for-ALL offering of Himself on Calvary, no wonder Almighty God’s wrath and judgment hangs over this paganistic religious/political institution.

    As Boettner goes on to say:

    “But the veil which had been TORN by the hand of God was patched up again by priestly hands, and for forty years, until the fall of Jerusalem, sacrifices continued to be offered in a restored temple service, and in Judaism the veil continued to stand between God and men. In our day the Roman priesthood has again patched up the veil. The the use of spurious sacraments, the sacrifice of the mass, the confessional, indulgences, other priestly instruments, it insist on keeping in place the curtain that God Himself has REMOVED. It continues to place fallible human priests, the Virgin Mary and dead saints as mediators between the sinner and God, although the Bible declares most clearly, that “There is ONE God, and ONE Mediator between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus.” (1 Timothy 2:5) (Ibid., p. 40) emphasis added.

    More to come later on this travesty to God’s Word, desecrated by the RC priestcraft.

  43. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    holes in the bucket part 1

    Yesterday Islander made a serious and worthy contribution, when he opined that “there are so many holes in the bucket we call the church…” because he is obviously correct!

    Even the two best examples of the early church had problems. At Philippi it seems that they were some who were not like minded in having the mind of Christ. i.e they were not as UNIFIED as they ought to have been (note they were not supposed to be uniformed.)

    There seemed to be some problems also with too women in that church called Euodias and Syntyche. But generally this church was a good church. Paul does not address much error there. He urges them only to be like minded and maintain fellowship (koinia) i.e to have things in common. This was one of the hallmarks of the early church, and is a feature reported to be prevalent in the contemporary underground church.

    It is clearly lacking in much of the contemporary church. This is one of the “holes” ……..and it exists in ALL denominations.

    At Thessalonica the church was perhaps the most ideal. They just seemed to have had some trouble understanding the doctrine of the second coming.

    Consequently in the two letters that Paul wrote to them this was his focus. Again he does not address any major errors in that church.

    What is noteworthy about these two letters are that they reveal the amount of Bible teaching Paul had done in the three weeks he spent in the city of Thessalonica as recorded in Acts 17. If he was engaged in his leather craft (tent making) there he might have only had a limited time to teach there.

    Yet the amount of teaching (as may be gathered by the topics about which they were reminded in his letters) that he did in the short space of time he was there is amazing.

    From a proper understanding of these two books we can see that two holes in the bucket we call the church ought to be evident.
    1- there has been no UNITY in the “:church” since its corruption in AD 313.
    2- there is little teaching OF THE BIBLE in most “churches”. And much of the teaching is erroneous.

    Yesterday Annonymous alluded, and correctly so to issues such as the prosperity gospel. A load of emotional clap trap that results from the continued misinterpretation of 3 John 2-3. Here a whole movement is set up on the basis of the misinterpretation of an obscure verse.

    They dwell on this obvious error rather than teaching the sincere milk of the Word.

    If you watch a telecast of these morons in action, most of the time is spent begging for money and pleading for poor folk to “sow seed “ into their ministries, in direct contradistinction to HOW the church is to give and WHERE the church is to give as taught in 2 Corinthians.

    Local church members are taught to give to the local church according to how they are ABLE to give, and not according to amounts determined by charlatans that they do not know (even if they say that they are evangelicals.) Shame on such folk.

    How do we know HOW the church is to give and WHERE the church is to give? By a knowledge of the doctrine of the church as set out in the NT.

    Hence the necessity of setting up this framework in my preliminary posts. If we want to go by the NT way to order a NT church we use this framework as best we can. Once a “church: group deviates from these Biblical injunctions, it is easy to spot where they err.

  44. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    As can be seen in Zoe’s last post, he compares the RC priesthood and practices with what is presented in Scripture.

    When this is done it is clear that the RC priesthood and practices can not stand up!

    The practices will be perpetuated until its sudden destruction as taught in Revelation 17, Jude and by the writings of (the first Pope.. mock scoff ) in 2 Peter 2!

    In his posts Zoe alludes to the purpose of the OT priesthood as a type or picture or illustration of the TRUE PRIEST and the ANTITYPE Jesus Christ who alone could offer the TRUE OR REAL OR EFFICACIOUS & SINGLE SACRIFICE FOR SIN.

    The OT priests offered repeatedly the same sacrifice because those sacrifices COVERED SIN ONLY. Such sacrifices did not erase or blot out sin as the Sacrifice Christ offered when he offered himself as taught in Collosians 2:14

    This is what the Anglicans are singing about in that beautiful hymn — and great exegesis it is! …ONCE, ONLY ONCE, AND ONCE FOR ALL HIS PRECIOUS BLOOD HE SHED

    He thus fulfilled the requirement that WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO REMMISSION OF SIN.

  45. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    @ GP..

    Do your thing guy…I just expected more…..my bad…carry on.

  46. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Peace Techie

    You will get more man. More 3/10 teaching which just earned me a 23,ooo US $ tuition waver to do a Masters. Man I didnt get half that much in Bdos $$ when i got my Bdos Exhibition in 1972. LOL .

    I was just illustrating a few points man. I trust that you are/ have been learning something about the church.

    I must find some time later to explore further the truth in Islander’s tenet/truth of the bucket of holes that is the “church” as we know it, and how man has made it so.

  47. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Techie
    Back to discussing the issue raised by Islander in “holes in the bucket”

    We have heard talk about the so called “Evangelical church” and we must define and discuss that so called body.

    Right now I will just say that there is no real denomination that is the “Evangelical church”, but ALL CHURCH GROUPS ought to engage in evangelism, because evangelism is one of the five purposes of a local church.

    These are WORSHIP MINISTRY EVANGELISM FELLOWSHIP & DISCIPLESHIP. Some of these things are best dome in small groups. Consequently some churches operate and actually grow by working through such small groups now call “cell groups.”

    Some of the purposes of the church can be accomplished in larger groups but real church fellowship that is meaningful occurs best in smally groups and small churches..

    We often hear about the catholic church or the church universal (not talking about the Roman organization which is catholic in being universal as that is what catholic means.

    The SDA organization is almost as catholic or universal with its schools colleges hospitals and a host of infrastructure for ministry and fellowship, but their church leaders are not routinely if ever, accused of paedophilia. So Annonymous’ argument that the leadership of the Roman organization is characterized by “pedophile priests playing pouchie poking” because they do certain services or ministry does not hold much water. The SDA organization is engaged in as many services and ministry without bullying bishops bulling boys!

    I was told by a very scholarly Caribbean preacher from Jamaica who is ex SDA that that organization has been designed to be self preserving and to be capable of existing even if the worse thing happens where they exist. He is probably correct when you observe their modus operandi and the extent of their infrastructure where ever they go.

    The catholic church or the church universal is not quite a force because it does not really exist on earth. The devil saw to that in AD 313. There are too many divisions in the “church” called denominations, and in perhaps the very best of the denominations there are very many divisions in those particular groups.

    The church militant or the real church is the LOCAL CHURCH, ie those gatherings that meet locally here and there and almost everywhere all over the world.

    Elmer Towns, who is considered to be the geru in the US on research on church growth and matters of this nature notes that the average church in the USA has a membership of 65 persons.

    When I first learned this, it occurred to me that the little Baptist church in which I was discipled demonstrated more ministry, fellowship and discipleship among its members and engaged in more evangelism than any of the “larger” churches that I have attended when it remained a group of less than 65 members.

    I noticed this again in another such church that I attended 12 years ago at home.

    The question might be asked is ARE MEGA CHURCHES A GOOD THING?
    Can mega churches accomplish the five purposes of the church better than small local churches? Are mega churches typical NT churches.

    Whether you like small local churches or mega churches what is very clear in many of both small local churches or mega churches is that
    1- Most church goers don’t know the Bible because
    a- they have not heard it taught
    b or they have not be taught properly, if at all
    c- they have not engaged in solid sequential studies of sacred scriptures
    d- they have not or don’t read it them selves or search it or study it like the exemplary saints at Berea described in Acts 17:11.
    e all of the above

    The above constitutes the reason for several “holes in the bucket of what the contemporary “church” has become.

    Even some once sound serious Bible teaching churches have become nothing less than social gatherings where some old and feeble folk meet for their “weekly meal” of very diluted and non fortified, and sometimes adulterated “milk of the Word.”

    Some have never advanced to becoming “meat eaters”: but languish in their spiritual lactose intolerance and suffering from spiritual galactosemia.

    If this is happening in so called Bible believing and Bible teaching churches, what do you expect happens in those “churches” that do not follow NT precepts and where NO MILK AT ALL IS FED TO EITHER THE LAMBS OR THE WORN OUT AND DESOLAE SHEEP?

    You better believe it Islander, there are large holes in the bucket! But this was predicted in Like 18:8 inter alia.

  48. Adam Sherman Avatar
    Adam Sherman

    Georgie Porgy,

    Here are some of them:

    “In his posts Zoe alludes to the purpose of the OT priesthood as a type or picture or illustration of the TRUE PRIEST and the ANTITYPE Jesus Christ … Great exegesis it is! … ONCE, ONLY ONCE, AND ONCE FOR ALL HIS PRECIOUS BLOOD HE SHED … He thus fulfilled the requirement that WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO REMMISSION OF SIN.”

    You are mistaken, Mr. Porgy.

    For is it not SAID, in the Book of Emulsion (22: 5), that RANDOM capitalization is verily an ABOMINATION unto the Lord, and yea doth it TIRE his ears. Doth it not SAY that?

    And there can be no DOUBT that the book of Brad (known in the apocrypha as the Brad “the PITT”) asserts unambiguously that: “the Lord is displeased if you write in CAPITAL letters. For to do so, even if you mean well, BETRAYS your comical CHARLATANISM and I do WANT to be the top invisible guy in the sky. And you are NOT helping. Not AT all.”

    And doubtless there are SOME among the lost and the depraved who question the unassailable truth of the apocrypha. They are fools. When the rapture comes, they WILL be left on this planet with nothing but POLYESTER clothing and shabby shoes and economy-class TICKETS to places like New Jersey, which IS hell.

    For surely Saul of Tarsus, who later became Paul, told us in the BOOK of Chefette (19: 17) that we should ABJURE the temptations of KFC, yea until we had wandered 40 days in the LAND without fatty fried food that TASTES like a milk carton but that idiots eat anyway BECAUSE they ARE below average intelligence and have never READ an entire book in their lives.

    And is it not SAID in the Book of KFC (2: 17) that we HAVE tastier chicken than Chefette?

    In all the synoptic gospels (Big Johnny the Evangelist, as always, was a little tardy here), it is plain that what WAS given to us as “crucifixion” has been lost in a game of Chinese whispers. Original Aramaic for “crucifixion”: “cro’t”. In the ancient Hebrew: “chr’otf”. In the Pauline rendering for illiterate Greeks: “ch’fte”. In the medieval rendering of Paul’s appalling Greek: “chefte”. In the King James version, as it always shall be: “Chefette”.

    This is the Word of the Lord.

  49. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    @GP: “…but ALL CHURCH GROUPS ought to engage in evangelism, because evangelism is one of the five purposes of a local church.

    ARE those OF other BELIEF systems ALLOWED to ALSO?

    @BT: “These are WORSHIP MINISTRY EVANGELISM FELLOWSHIP & DISCIPLESHIP.

    – WORSHIP could be interpreted as being the same as (cbiabtsa) learn from and learn to trust.

    – MINISTRY cbiabtsa teach.

    – EVANGELISM cbiabtsa teach and promote.

    – FELLOWSHIP cbiabtsa support.

    – DISCIPLESHIP cbiabtsa teach and support.

    I truly respect your beliefs GP.

    I just wish you respected other points of view more….

  50. Adam Sherman Avatar
    Adam Sherman

    Mr. Halsall addresses Mr. Porgie, who is self-evidently not the brightest bulb on the shelf, in this strangely interesting manner:

    “I truly respect your beliefs GP.”

    Just an observation. No comment.

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