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It seems the biggest irony that Pope Benedict XV a German should be under pressure at this time because of the role the Catholic has played in covering up sex offences through the years. Perhaps now more than at any time in recent history the moral authority of the Church is being challenged. Other denominations may want to believe that they are absolved from the growing public perception that problems in the Church is confined to one or the other. The reality of the situation is that the perception of the Church is probably seen by many as having a more amorphous meaning. The Church still represents to many the moral anchor, the possibility that it maybe losing its relevance at a time when cultural relativism is on the rise continues to be a big concern to many.

In 1989 the dismantling of the Berlin Wall signalled the end of the cold war period, Reagan the Capitalist had triumphed over Gorbachev the Communist, from their current locations they both might agree it was truly an epiphanous event. Some are wondering at this Eastertide if Pope Benedict XV will demonstrate the courage to use his position to signal to the world once and for all that the Catholic Church is ready to exorcise the sex demon which continues to besmirch the work of the Church.ย  Twenty years after the felling of the Berlin Wall we live in a world which still wants to believe that there is someone greater, they maybe ready for yet another epiphanous event.

In any society there is always a place for the wise and intellectual among us. One thing we know is that to believe in God requires faith, no amount of debate whether in a docile or rancorous form can change this reality. While some may argue that religion has been used to brainwash the ignorant; there is the value position which some forget religion teaches of good and bad which has played its role in weaving modern day societies now under threat from moral degradation. If we are to believe that religion has no place in the emerging multicultural societies the question must be answered โ€“ What will replace it?

Last week a caller to a radio show who we identified to be Marsha Hinds-Layne, a call-in moderator in her own right, used the fact that there is now a growing distrust of the Church because of the sex scandals. She went on to make the point that many may feel disincline to send their children to Sunday School because of it. One would hope if a parent saw the benefit to be had of sending their children to Sunday School, there are simple remedies which could be put in place to counter the fear expressed by Mrs. Hinds-Layne.ย  More importantly what the argument has exposed are those who would say that they are Christians but would surrender at the first sighting of a challenge to their faith. What if Jesus Christ would have been so meek?

Easter represents an important event on the Christian calendar.ย  To quote Wikipedia,ย  The New Testament teaches that the resurrection of Jesus, which Easter celebrates, is a foundation of the Christian faith.[6] The resurrection established Jesus as the powerful Son of God[6] and is cited as proof that God will judge the world in righteousness.[7] God has given Christians “a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead”.[8] Christians, through faith in the working of God[9] are spiritually resurrected with Jesus so that they may walk in a new way of life.[10]

Alluded to above, the Church is losing its relevance in today’s world and we can debate why. The pragmatists among us see the urgent need for the Church to give itself a chance by cleaning up its act. It will be hard enough for those who represent the Church to win the hearts and souls of the heathens among us without the distractions which have become part and parcel of religion nowadays. The sex scandals, the greed, the hypocrisyโ€ฆ

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety – Proverbs 11:14


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201 responses to “Moral Authority Of The Church Under Threat At Eastertide”


  1. A true Christian has Faith in God, not in Priest.

    The abuse of children by Catholic and Anglican priests around the world
    is appalling and we should continue to worship God and hope that the Justice
    system will catch and jail Pedophile priests.


  2. @Hants

    Don’t forget the role of the Church is to save souls. In the current environment where priests are molesting boys, there is greed etc it would be not unreasonable for non-believers to doubt the benefit of believing.

  3. Get Down From The Pulpit Avatar
    Get Down From The Pulpit

    Yet more religious diatribe! I now come to realize that Dictionary is not here on sufferance but by invitation!


  4. Quite an interesting article.

    Reading through it though, two errors have been found – one factual and the other grammatical – in the same paragraph – paragraph 2.

    “In 1989 the dismantling of the Berlin Wall signalled the end of the cold war period, Reagan the Capitalist had triumphed over Gorbachev the Communist, FROM THEIR GRAVE ( Capitalization the PDC’s ) they both might agree it was truly an epiphanous event.” taken from above thread.

    The truth is that whereas Reagan is dead, Gorbachev is still very much alive today. So, to say that from their grave they both might agree………… is factually wrong, as that one is dead and the other is alive.

    “Some are wondering at this Eastertide if Pope Benedict XV will demonstrate the courage to use his position to signal to the world once and for all that the Catholic Church is ready TO EXCORIATE (capitalization the PDC’s) the sex demon which continues to besmirch the work of the Church” – Taken from the above thread.

    The use of the term excoriate is incorrect in that context. It is a malapropism. The most frequent use of the term excoriate means to severely criticise. The term that the writer of this article should have used is exorcise – which in this context means to cast out or remove or expel demons from a place/person, etc.

    So, there you have it.

    PDC


  5. @PDC

    Thanks for the feedback which is accepted.


  6. @Hants

    The Church is forever under the universal microscope
    Therefore it should exemplify what it teaches in its morals.


  7. When the Vatican sees the scandal as “Petty Gossip”
    as said by the vactian spokesperson that is a sad day.
    When the vatican cannot bring itself to even apologise
    How then can people look to the church for any type of guidance.


  8. Pedophiles run to professions and vocations where they have unfettered access to children. It does not surprise me that abusers should try to hide in plain sight. What is blameworthy is the church’s behaviour when problems arise. Take for example the latest sermon by a priest from the Vatican which appears to blame everyone but the church for its failure to act and protect the victims and by growing evidence that the big P was just as much a ‘look the other way kind of guy as his currently resigning subordinates.’


  9. The point made in the blog about the Church being seen as this amorphous being is supported by the haste with which Archbishop of the Anglican Church saw the need to apologise for critiquing the Catholic Church. In the meantime a growing constituency in the world devoid of basic morals continue rudderless.

    Archbishop Williams apologises for comments
    Published on 3 April 2010 – 10:47pm

    More about:

    Archbishop of Canterbury

    Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin

    Archbishop Rowan Williams

    child sex abuse by Catholic clergy

    Irish Catholic Church

    Paedophile priests

    Roman Catholic church

    the worldwide Anglican Communion

    The leader of the worldwide Anglican Communion has apologised for his remarks about the child sex scandal and the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland.
    Archbishop Rowan Williams expressed his "deep sorrow and regret" for saying the Catholic Church in Ireland has "lost all credibility" due to allegations of child sex abuse by paedophile Catholic clergy.

    In an interview broadcast on Saturday, Archbishop Williams said Ireland’s Catholic Church had lost its credibility over its handling of the scandal. He said the abuse was "a colossal trauma," adding "It is not just a problem for the Church, it is a problem for everybody in Ireland".

    A few hours later, the Anglican leader telephoned the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, to apologise for "difficulties which may have been created" by his remarks. Archbishop Williams says he had "no intention of criticising or attacking the Irish Church".


  10. No institution, at any time in history, had “moral authority” except that given to it by its members. I don’t know if religion needs to be replaced or not but I strongly encourage every human being to pursue their own happiness, to live as they see fit, to believe in their own intelligence and common sense and to subject their own beliefs and actions as well as those of others to transparent and vigorous scrutiny.

    The world as it seeks to determine right from wrong is not rudderless. The ‘rudder’ is more firmly fixed and more effective than ever before. It is that “rudder” of the increasing exchange of opinions, news and views of millions if not billions of ordinary people via the internet. It is the cloistered, secretive, esoteric worlds of the curia and the councils of state (with their official secrets acts and propaganda apparatus) that are the true obstructionists of moral development.


  11. @Anonymous

    Your view is one we have considered but the assumption you make about every human being to pursue their own happiness, to live as they see fit, to believe in their own intelligence and common sense and to subject their own beliefs and actions as well as those of others to transparent and vigorous scrutiny is where we have a problem. Are to assume that each individual will be graced with some minimum level of intelligence which is in reasonable accord with fellow humans. For those who don’t make the mark, what?


  12. Every human being thinks. This is all that I require. I am more afraid of those deemed super intelligent who are more able to persuade others to do things against their better judgment. It is a dialectical approach that is proposed. That we live interdependently with others is an incontrovertible observation. With more participants including even those deemed crazy, dull whatever, I believe that a more agreeable, clearer and more useful position will emerge. Those views deemed reasonable should be able to counter those deemed unreasonable especially if subjected to the scientific approach of .

    ” Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit ” – Desiderata written by Max Erhmann (1872 -1945)

    Hopefully not to confuse the issue but I am NOT proposing a Democracy but a Republic of carefully described limitations on individual, corporate and state rights and authority. A democracy does not allow for consensus and thus protection of the minority view but operates according to the rule of the majority with a winner-take-all outcome.


  13. @Anonymous – 2010/04/04 at 10:13am

    There is much to ponder about what you wrote.


  14. The Roman Catholic Church!

    The recent scandal(s) that have emerged from within the Catholic Church, perceived by many to represent the true ‘Church’ of The Lord Jesus Christ, is the greatest *misnomer* perpetrated since the formation of the State/Church union by Constatine Circa 325 A.D.

    I was very involved with Roman Catholicism, was married to a dear Catholic lady in a RC Church. My children are all devout Catholics; so I don’t speak off the top of my head when I express my views on Catholicism.

    Roman Catholicism IS NOT a Christian Church; it masqurades under the banner of Christianity, and the recent facts of priests abusing little boys sexually, over many long decades, in fact over hundreds of years, is no surprise, as disguisting as it is.

    Roman catholicism has trampled on, distorted and corrupted the body of doctrinal Truth contained in the New Testament, to such an extent, that the Jesus of Catholicism is another (false) Jesus; the gospel of Catholicism is another (false) gospel; and the spirit of Catholicism is another (false) spirit.

    Sir George Sinclair could not have put it more succinctly:

    “Romanism is a refined system of Christianized Heathenism, and chiefly differs from its prototype in being more treacherous, more cruel, more dangerous, more intolerant.”

    Anyone, trying to equate Catholicism with the True Church of Christ, is like trying to equate the ‘Cosa Nostra’ ‘The Maffia’ with the Salvation Army.


  15. A couple of questions of concern as it relates to the RC.

    To what extent is Pope Benedict removed from the devilish behaviour of his clergy men?

    To what extent is celibacy a Christian prerequisite?

    The two questions asked are at the genesis of the challenges of the RC.


  16. @Anonymous
    “Every human being thinks. This is all that I require. I am more afraid of those deemed super intelligent who are more able to persuade others to do things against their better judgment”.

    Absolutely correct. Every person is responsible for himself.

    Pedophile priest are criminals and treated as such. Those who “harbour” them or protect them are also criminals.

    The Church can only survive if the “good” Priests stand up against the evil
    Priests and “clean God’s house”.


  17. @ David
    “To what extent is celibacy a Christian prerequisite?”
    ***************************************************************
    Not only is it NOT a christian prerequisite, it is about as ANTI christian as one can get…..

    I have to say that Mr. Zoe’s assessment of Catholicism @1:37 is very accurate.
    Bit of a pity that he does not also see that the concept of the ‘trinity’ introduced and championed by this group is a fundamental corruption of true Christianity as well…..
    I suspect that he will come to recognize this in time…


  18. Roman Catholicism and its sacerdotal priestcraft, is not New Testament based.

    No New Testament Authority For A Human Priesthood.

    In Ephesians 4: 11, Paul enumerates the different kinds of ministers and agents in the Christian church, and the office of ‘priest’ is NOT among them.

    “And He gave some to be apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers” And again, “And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers…” ( 1Cor. 12: 28). There is never any mention of priests. The only mediatorial priesthood recognized in the New Testament is that of Christ, the great High Priest, and to Him alone is the title “priest” (Gk. hiereus) given.

    Celibacy of New Testament ministers is no where expressed in Scripture.

    “A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behaviour, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with reverence…” (1 Tim 3: 2-4).

    Catholicism is ancient Babylonian paganism, dressed up in a maze of unbiblical doctrine and dogma, with the priestcraft at the very center of its labyrinth of ritualistic nonsense.


  19. @ Zoe
    “…….with the priestcraft at the very center of its labyrinth of ritualistic nonsense.”
    *****************************************************************************************
    ……and with the false Trinity doctrine at the top….!


  20. The Devil exists :
    The “Ironic Punishments” room in hell

    “The whole `ironic punishments’ thing is based on
    Dante’s `Inferno’, in which sinners go to hell to face punishments
    analogous to what they did in Life. For example, adulterers are
    condemned to spend eternity in a whirlwind because in Life they were
    swept away by passion (so to speak). “


  21. @Zoe,

    “not given to wine”

    In other words he ent to drink nuh likka.


  22. Christians are outspoken against Homosexuality
    But some of these hypocrites abuse young boys
    & Leaders cover up crimes to protect the Church


  23. Some Christians have moved from being viewed as tolerant to being classed as extremists. Religious rights and freedoms is not the same as individual human rights and freedoms.


  24. Now that we have established wrong things go down in the Church and disgustingly the Church leaders are motivated to cover-up, what does this say about the leadership? In the case of the Catholics, what responsibility does the Pope have to clear this matter up? Is it enough for Pope Benedict to say he is too far removed? Importantly what does it all mean for the Church’s public image?

  25. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Here we are again talking about the “church”. What is the “:church”? Does any one on BU know? Or are we again going to blow hot air as usual about a matter of which little is known because we have compiters and internet access.

    Will we set out the issues with logic and coherence, or spout effervescent bovine excrement with great emotion and vigor with little sense and purpose?

    And is the bulling of little boys by bullyng priests a greater sin than the consensual bulling that goes on even at the top of our society by homosexuals and shemales? Or is it worse than the rampant adultery and fornication that we hypocritically accept?

    Can we bring some order to this discussion by defining terms?


  26. @GP

    Can we bring some order to this discussion by defining terms?

    Why don’t you define your argument if you want to add value to the discussion?

  27. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Let us embark on defining some terms about the church by asking and answering some simple questions.

    1-In the earliest accounts of the Scriptures, what form did organized religious life take?

    There are no evidences of an organized religious life in the earliest accounts of the Scriptures. The nearest
    approach to it was the family.

    The father acted as priest and leader in the worship of God. This seems to be the case with Adam (Gen. 4:24f.), Noah (Gen. 6:18), job (job 1:5), Abraham (Gen.12;1-3), Isaac (Gen. 26:2-5), and Jacob (Gen. 28-13-15).

    With the organization of the nation under Moses, the religious life of Israel underwent a change, The twelve tribes were organized into a nation, a people of God (Exod. 19:6).

    This theocracy involved the total life of the people , their political, social, and religious life. God was the chief ruler; the priests, kings, and prophets were merely the executors of God’s will.

    The bond of this union was circumcision, the law, and the tabernacle and temple worship. With the coming of Christ and his rejection by the nation of Israel, God set Israel aside for this age and founded the church of Jesus Christ.

    2-We are currently living in what is called the church age or dispensation, or the age or dispensation of grace What is the primary purpose of God for this age?

    The primary purpose of God for this age is the building of the church [ Matt 16:18; Acts15:14]

    3-Between what three groups or classes of people does Paul distinguish?

    Paul distinguished between Jews, Gentiles and the Church [1 Cor 10: 32]

    4-Where did believers initially meet?

    Believers initially met in the temple area or in homes.
    The “church” certainly did not meet in expensive real estate designated for this purpose as is accepted today. When did this practice start? With the RC church.

    5-Is the โ€œChurchโ€ the same as the โ€œKingdom of God?โ€ Explain.

    Although the church is part of the kingdom of God, The โ€œChurchโ€ and the โ€œKingdom of Godโ€ are NOT the
    same It is not even to be equated exactly with the mystery form of the kingdom, for there also it is only part of the larger kingdom.

    The โ€œKingdom of Godโ€ is actually the Messianic, Davidic, earthly millennial kingdom which is yet in the future which was predicted by the O T prophets and which John Baptist, Jesus and the twelve announced, that was rejected by the Jews and which was from manโ€™s viewpoint thus postponed.

    That the โ€œChurchโ€ is the same as the โ€œKingdom of Godโ€ is an erroneous view posited by amillennialists which has no Biblical basis what so ever.

    6-In what two senses is the term โ€œchurchโ€ used?

    The term โ€œchurchโ€ used is used in two senses; the universal sense and the local sense.

    It is noteworthy that the denominational nomenclature ascribed to the church is not Biblibally sanctioned.

    7-Who is included in the universal sense of the word โ€œchurch?โ€

    In the universal sense the church consists of all those who, in this age, have been born of the Spirit of God and have by that same Spirit been baptized into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13; 1 Pet. 1:3, 22-25).

    That the term is used in this universal sense is evident because Christ spoke of building his church, not churches (Matt. 16:18) –

    Paul grieved because he had persecuted the church (1 Cor. 15:9; Gal. 1:13; Phil. 3:6);

    Christ is said to have loved the church and to have given himself for her (Eph. 5:25);

    our Lord is purifying and sanctifying the church
    (Eph. 5:26f.);

    he is the head of the church (Eph. 1: 22; 5:23; Col. 1: 18);

    he has set gifted men in the church (I Cor. 12:28);

    the church is making known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places the manifold wisdom of God (Eph. 3:10);

    and the whole company of believers of this age is called the church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven (Heb. 12 -.23).

    In all these Scriptures the Greek word ekklesia is used. In itself this term means simply a body of called-out people, as an assembly of citizens in a self-governing state

    This universal conception of the church is seen in the figures under which it is represented.

    The church is called a building of God (1 Cor. 3:9, 16f.; 2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:20-22; 1 Tim. 3:15). Christ is the cornerstone of this building (Matt. 16:18; 1 Cor. 3: 11; 1 Pet. 2:6f.) and dwells in it by his Spirit (1 Cor. 3:16; 6:19). The believer performs priestly service in this temple (Heb. 13:15f. I I Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1: 6).

    It is also called the body of Christ (Rom. 12:4; 1 Cor. 12:12-27; Eph. 1:22f.; 3:6; 4:4, 12, 16; 5:23, 30 Col. 1:18, 24; 2:19; 3:15). Under this figure, the church is represented as an organism, as having a vital connection with Christ, as under the superintendence of Christ, as being a unit, although made up of Jews and Gentiles, as having a diversity of gifts among the members, and as ideally cooperating in the performance of one common task.

    And it is called the bride of Christ (2 Cor. 11:2f.; Eph. 5:24f., 32). As the bride of Christ, the church is in the position of espousal to him; as such, she is to be faithful to Christ (James 4:4), to prepare for the wedding ceremonies (Rev. 19: 7f.), to be married some day to Christ (John 3:29), and to reign with him (Rev. 19:6-20:6).

    Other figures used are vine (John 15:lff.) and flock (John 10:lff.; Heb. 13:20; 1 Pet. 2:25).

    That is the begiining of a series of articles in which I will attempt to enlighten the BU “family” so called on WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT THE CHURCH.

    The sane sound solid systematic approach to dealing with this situation is to study the sacred scriptures for your self to see if these things are so or not as exemplified by the saints at Berea as described in Acts 17:11.


  28. Liberal moral thinking can replace the void left by the church in modern society


  29. And is the bulling of little boys by bullyng priests a greater sin than the consensual bulling that goes on even at the top of our society by homosexuals and shemales? Or is it worse than the rampant adultery and fornication that we hypocritically accept?

    What colourful language coming from GP.

    If I didn’t know better I would think you are drunk man, what has gotten into you?
    What would Dictionary think of such words exiting the mouth of one in such standing?


  30. @Georgie Porgie: “What is the โ€œ:churchโ€? Does any one on BU know?

    By definition, no.

    @GP: “Will we set out the issues with logic and coherence, or spout effervescent bovine excrement with great emotion and vigor with little sense and purpose?

    It comes across to me that one could get a degree in engineering (or physics, or mathematics, et al) with more ease and certainty than what appears to be required to believe you understand which interpretation of the Bible (or any holy book, or any believe system) might be true.

    Just putting that out there…

    Happy Easter to all.

  31. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Part 2 of several

    8-Explain the Greek term โ€œekklesia.โ€

    Ekklesia means simply a body of called out people, such as an assembly of citizens in a self governing state, but the New Testament has filled this word with spiritual content so that it means a people called out from the world and from sinful things.

    9- What is the secondary definition of the word โ€œchurch?โ€

    The secondary definition of the word โ€œchurchโ€ is that the “church” is a group of people called out from the
    world and who belong to the Lord.

    However, the former definition recognizes more clearly the fact of the new birth as an essential requirement of membership in the true church.

    Memerbership is not, however, hereditary or by compulsion but by a personal decision of faith in Christ.

    10-What is the local sense of the word โ€œchurch?โ€

    The church in the local sense may be defined as a group of professed believers in any one locality.

    In the local sense the word “church” is used of the group of professed believers in any one locality. Thus, we read of the church in Jerusalem (Acts 8:1; 11:22), in Ephesus (Acts 20:17), in Cenchrea (Rom. 16:1), and in Corinth (1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 1:1).

    We read of the church of the Laodiceans (Col. 4:16) and of the Thessalonians (1 Thess. 1: I ; 2 Thess. 1: 1).

    Sometimes the term is in the plural, as in the churches of Galatia (Gal. 1:2), of Judea (I Thess. 2:14),
    and of Asia (Rev. 1:4).

    The local churches together are to be a faithful replica of the true church, the universal church. It is interesting that the figures used of the church are used equally of the individual believer, the local church, and the universal church.

    The figures of bride, body, building, and flock are used of the church universal (Eph. 5:251 1:23; 2 Cor. 6:16; Heb. 13:20, respectively), of the local church (2 Cor. 11:21- 1 Cor. 12:12-27; 1 Cor. 3:16; Acts 20:28, respectively), and of the individual believer (Rom. 7:4- Rom. 6:12; 1 Cor. 6:19; Luke 15:4-10, respectively).

    11.When was the church founded?

    The church was founded on the day of Pentecost ( Acts 2). by the Lord Jesus, when the 120 charter members were baptised with the Holy Spirit

    12.What is the โ€œBaptism of the Spirit,โ€ and what does it do?

    “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and
    โ€ขwe were all made to drink of one Spirit” (I Cor. 12:13). By the body, Paul means the church (v. 28; Eph. 1:22f.).

    This baptism of the Spirit places the believer in the church, the body of Christ. This baptism is mentioned in all four Gospels and the Acts.

    The four references in the Gospels (Matt. 3: 11 ; Mark 1:81- Luke 3:16; John 1:33) are practically the same, namely, the promise of the coming baptism.

    In Acts 1:5, Jesus repeats the promise and says
    that it will be fulfilled in a few days; and in Acts 11:15-17, Peter refers back to Pentecost as the fulfillment. I Cor. 12:13 refers to the baptism as a past experience.

    Thus, it is evident that the baptism of the Spirit occurred on the day of Pentecost and that the church was founded on that day.

    This same conclusion is made necessary by the fact that the church would not have been possible before the ascension and exaltation of Christ (Eph. 1:19-23). .

    We read that there were 120 waiting for the promise of the Spirit when the day of Pentecost came. These 120 were the first ones to be baptized with the Spirit, and they became the charter members of the Jerusalem church.

    In response to the preaching of Peter and the other apostles, 3,000 received the word, were baptized, and were added to the church (Acts 2:14, 41).

    Hence the NT teaches that church members are baptised (by immersion) regenerated believers.

    13. What was the doctrinal standard of the early church?

    The doctrinal standard of the early church is given in Acts 2:42-47 where we are taught that they continued in the the apostles’ teaching; i.e the teachings or doctrine which they had received from Jesus.

    These teacings were to be handed down from generation to generation according to the tenets of 2 Tim 2:2

    The church was also characterized by and had fellowship with one another as believers; they observed the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper; they met for public worship; and they contributed to the support of the needy.


  32. @GP

    This is part of the problem. When ordinary people speak of the Church it is our sense what is meant is the priesthood or men and women who administer the doctrines espoused by the respective denominations. Therefore if you are going to address the concerns of ordinary BU family members you may want to proceed with your explanations on this basis.

  33. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Technician
    I have used standard language understood by Bajans this time rather than confusing you with the greek and the Hebrew.

    When we reverted to the greek and Hebrew it is a problem when I speak Bajan it is a problem.

    You all know what bulling is. It is a term we derived from activity done by bulls. There is nothing inherantly wrong in speaking like a Bajan. I am indeed Bajan. And I doint drink.

  34. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    @ David
    Re This is part of the problem. When ordinary people speak of the Church it is our sense what is meant is the priesthood or men and women who administer the doctrines espoused by the respective denominations.

    I am an ordinary person Sir. I even know standard Bajan words Sir.

    It is necessary for us to be willing to learn what the Bible teaches.

    In relationship to the “chuch” the Bible teaches nothing about “a priesthood or men and women”. The NT from which the “church” gets its mandate teaches very clearly in 1 Peter 2 about the INDIVIDUAL PRIESTHOOD OF THE BELIEVER.

    In other words the individual believer no longer needs a “priest” to intercede for him. The believer is his own priest and can approach God on his own terms. This truth is clearly reitereated in the “let us “verses of Hebrews 10 where Paul changes gear from the doctrinal to the devotional sections of his book, as his style.

    In the early section of Hebrews he sets up Christ as the High Priest who offered the ONE COMPLETE EFFICACIOUS SACRIFICE (which the OT High Priest could not do.) He spends several chapters setting up this concept, of which the Anglicans sing thus ONCE, ONLY ONCE< AND ONCE FOR ALL HIS PRECIOUS BLOOD HE SHED.

    In chapter 10, Paul then goes to say that as a result the BELIEVER CAN NOW COME BOLDLY TO GOD ON HIS OWN STEAM as it were.

    You can read it and check it for yourself like the saints at Berea in Acts 17:11.

    Re Therefore if you are going to address the concerns of ordinary BU family members you may want to proceed with your explanations on this basis.

    I am interested in sharing what the Bible teaches Sir, and will develop my discussion along the teachings set out in the Bible about the doctrine of the "church " in a systematic way.

    My mandate from Paul's teaching to Timothy is to TEACH THE WORD! Not ordinary BU family members misinterpretations or mythinterpretatins about the Word. What I am saying can easily be checked by reading the relevent Scriptures cited for oneself as the sainst at Berea did. This is the proper way.

    You are under no obligation to read what I write or heed what I say, but I am bound by the mandate in Timothy, kind Sir.

    And thank you perfusely for "the latitude" to present my views Sir!

  35. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Part 3

    14- How is Christ portrayed in the Book of Revelation?

    Christ is portrayed in the Book of Revelation as the Lord of the churches walking among the lampstands
    ( Rev 1:12- 20)

    In the NT the church is described as the new creation of God and rests upon the person and work of Jesus Christโ€ Christ (not the Pope or the RC church) is โ€œThe Rockโ€ upon which the church is founded?

    15.What is required on one who desires to become a โ€œliving stoneโ€ or believer priest?

    One who desires to become a โ€œliving stoneโ€must confess to the deity of Christ. Remember the church is the membership – the organism not the organization!

    16.What three things are clear concerning the building of the church?

    The three things that are clear concerning the building of the church are that :-
    1] Christ is using human instruments in doing so
    2] these human instruments must confess to the deity of Christ
    3] the authority of binding and loosing was not given to Peter only but also to the rest of the apostles.

    17.What foundation of the church did Paul lay?

    The foundation of the church that Paul laid was Jesus Christ, not the Pope, not the RC church- Paul contended that there was no other foundation and so do I. I Corinthians 3:11

    18.Who should be admitted to church membership?

    Church membership ought to be limited to baptized born again believers who confess that Jesus the Christ is God who came in the flesh. According to the NT , the foremost requirement for becoming members of a local church is the free confession that Jesus is the Christ.

    19.What are the two conditions of the founding of the universal, true church?

    The two conditions of the founding of the universal, true church are
    1] the new birth and
    2] the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

    20 What eight things indicate that there was at least a simple organization in the church at Jerusalem?

    The following eight things indicate that there was at least a simple organization in the church at Jerusalem :- they
    1] adhered to a doctrinal standard
    2] met for spiritual fellowship
    3] united in prayer
    4] practiced baptism
    5] observed the Lordโ€™s supper
    6] kept account of the membership
    7 ]met for public worship
    8 ] provided material help for the needy of their membership


  36. @GP

    Some where in the above BU mentioned the need to be pragmatic. The title of this blog is the threat to the moral authority of the Church in our society today. Feel free to quote whatever you want but when all is said and done the question will still be asked about relevance.

  37. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Part of the problem – in fact the crux of the problem on BU is that the so called family are hearing many new things. They are hearing things for the first time that they NEVER heard n the established church in which we grew up. They are hearing things that they ought to have head long l;ong long ago.

    Much of these things are taught gradually to children in serious solid Bible churches. I sat in a Sunday school class this morning for teens, and heard the teacher utter a sentiment that I have long heard, SUNDAY SCHOOL OUGHT TO BE BIBLE SCHOOL! Truth is there are many grpups and little churches that teach like that in BARBADOS! Thank God!

    But these things are not in themselves new. These issues are clearly stated in the Bible that all the Protestant churches say that they use as their mandate.

    Martin Luther on reading Romans and Galatians found out that faith was by Biblio Solo. The Reformation rested on the concept of the BIBLE ONLY. The established church in Bim has long apostatised from this standard or cannon or plumb line!

    It migh surprise you that there are Anglicans abroad of the greatest Bible scholarship whose writings can be recommended to any new convert because they rightly divide the Word of Truth and facilitate its understanding. Two good examples are STOTT and both the BARCLAYS.

    When we understand the true government of the “Church” we will see that the REAL MORAL AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH LIES WITHIN THE INDIVIDUAL MEMBERSHIP OF THE CHURCH. who are the real priests according to 1 Peter 2;9. This is basic milk!

    It was always intended for the church to be led and derive its authority from its membership as clearly taught in Ephesians 4:4 inter alia. This is also addressed in the so called “allenon” verses, ie the several NT scriptures in which the word TOGETHER is used.

    You see we always come around to WORDS, because words express thoughts and ideas. So the ipsima verbae (the very words themselves) is important.


  38. @GP

    So tell us how ordinary people around the world who are dismayed at events occurring in the Church and which has rocked their confidence, how can the Church pull it back and assume a leadership position on the moral issues? Our definition of the Church stands for the moment even though the technical definition you gave is taken.


  39. @Georgie Porgie: “Part of the problem โ€“ in fact the crux of the problem on BU is that the so called family are hearing many new things.

    This is a problem? People being introduced to new ideas is a problem???

    @GP: “Much of these things are taught gradually to children in serious solid Bible churches.

    Earth to GP…

    People can learn on their own now.


  40. @Zoe
    Didn’t Jesus say to Peter “Upon this Rock will I build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against
    it.
    Isn’t this where the catholic doctrine was formed .And if so how can you denounced the very thing Jesus gave Peter the authority to do,. Peter did go to Rome
    and started the church.

  41. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    David

    If you will wait and read and be willing to learn —– the relevance will become apparent.

    You are taling about the
    moral
    authority
    of the church
    at easter tide

    Is the church or its moral authority only relevant at eastertide? or all the time?.

    What or who is the church, according to the book that describes what the church should be? You have confessed that the BU family do not even know how to define the “church”. How can you then discuss the “church” when you dont know what it REALLY IS.

    Define “moral authority” derived?
    The head of the church, right?

    But who is the head of the Church universal and of every local church.

    What does the Bible teach about the source, use or administration of authority in the church?

    How is the ” moral authority” of any local church threatened?

    How is the ” moral authority” of the church universal church threatened?

    Is it threatened because the Pope cant control homsexuality in his organization?

    The Pope might be head of the RC church but he is definitely NOT THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH UNIVERSAL OR OF THE MAJORITY OF LOCAL CHURCHES IN THIS WORLD.

    From whence does the church universal or any local church derive its moral or any authority?

    All these are RELEVANT ISSUES THAT YOU HAVE NOT ADDRESSED AND OUGHT TO ADDRESS.

    What is authority in the church according to the NT anyway? Who has the real pre-eminence, or authority? Does a local church really run by “authority”? Is the relationships between members in local churches determined by “authority” or solely by “authority”? An understanding of the short book of Philemon in the NT, clearly does not support this view. Ah lie?


  42. @Georgie Porgie

    “And is the bulling of little boys by bulling priests a greater sin than the consensual bulling that goes on even at the top of our society by homosexuals and shemales? Or is it worse than the rampant adultery and fornication that we hypocritically accept?”

    To you it may not be a greater sin GP but it is a more heinous crime because it involves children and the position of trust accorded Priests in our society.

    There is a difference between sexual acts of consenting adults and the sexual exploitation of children.


  43. @GP

    Yes the Catholic Church is not universal but here is what we wrote in the blog:

    the reality of the situation is that the perception of the Church is probably seen by many as having a more amorphous meaning.

    . Again we point you to the fact that we are applying a healthy dose of pragmatism to the issue of the moral void which is being surrendered by the Church. The title by inserting ‘Eastertide’ is to use the season for effect therefore your semantics to that point is moot.

  44. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Hants

    I understand and appreciate your point.

    I think that you understand what I mean just as I understand what you are saying.

    David

    The RC organization is practically universal, perhaps as much as any denomination It is also a very powerful political institution influencing many governments. It always has been since its institution and still is today

    And I do understand your purpose for using the word Eastertide.

    Re So tell us how ordinary people around the world who are dismayed at events occurring in the Church and which has rocked their confidence, how can the Church pull it back and assume a leadership position on the moral issues? Our definition of the Church stands for the moment even though the technical definition you gave is taken.

    First I did not give a technical definition of the church but a BIBLICAL DEFINITION, which you can ratify for your self like the saints at Berea.

    I attend a church with ordinary people David, and we are not at all dismayed at events occurring in the RC organization. Sin in the RC church is like sin in all other church grpups or sin in the cities around us or in the world around us. What is happening now in the RC organization is the norm. It has been happening for ages. What is new? Does any Bajan rant and rave because there are still two bridges in town?

    The facts of life are that most ordinary people around the world donโ€™t care about the RC organization or the church (local or universal) and the confidence of most ordinary people around the world is not at all rocked by scandals in the RC organization, or even that of any church group. What is happening now is the norm. It has been happening for ages It may make the news for a few days, and die down and rise the next time a case come to the fore.

    Frankly I do not care about the RC organization or how it can pull back what ever it is you think they have lost. The RC organization and many other denominations have long lost their influence and leadership position on moral issues and it is unlikely to recover the same. I rest my conclusion on prophetic scriptures such as 2 Timothy 3: 1-7.

    Jesus himself indicated in Luke 18:8 in his rhetorical question that he wont find the faith when he returned.

    The NT writing apostles taught that men would depart from the faith. 2 Peter 2 and Jude go into great detail about the apostasy that is currently prevalent, and that will experience a great upsurge after the rapture (c.f 2 Thes 2) and reach its zenith and destruction as recorded in Revelation 17.

    Didnโ€™t Jesus say to Peter โ€œUpon this Rock will I build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

    The true Christian Church was not established by Peter or upon Peter.

    The true Christian Church was established upon the โ€œrockโ€ of Peterโ€™s confession that Jesus is the Christ!

    Again I say โ€œYou see we always come around to WORDS, because words express thoughts and ideas. So the ipsima verbae (the very words themselves) is important.โ€ Hence exegesis and hermeneutics.

    Perhaps Zoe can exegete the relevant verse and explain the pun used in the greek in the verse in question. It is indeed a beautiful nuance.

    The true Christian Church established at Pentecost was established on the truth or tenet or axiom that JESUS IS THE CHRIST. This is clearly taught throughout the NT. This concept is mentioned twice in Acts 18 alone, for example! See verses 5 & 28. This concept is clearly taught throughout 1 John and in 2 John 5-11, and in much of the Pauline epistles.

    The true Christian church was started in Jerusalem (not Rome) as clearly taught in Acts 2.

    The true Christian church then spread as ordered by Jesus in Acts 1:8 to Samaria and to he other parts of the world. This spread which continues even today, began slowly, but hastened under religious persecution as is well documented historically. It was facilitated by the wide network of Roman roads, the forced pax Romana (Roman peace) and the universal use of the koine greek for commerce at that time.

    The false RC organization began in AD 313, centuries after Peter died by execution (crucified upside down we are told).

    That Peter went to Rome to start the church or that Peter was given the authority to start the church or that he was the first Pope is not substantiated by any NT scriptures, as can easily be discerned by studying and searching the scriptures for oneself as the saints at Berea did as recorded in Acts 17:11.

    The early history of the church is well documented

  45. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Basic Doctrine of the Church according to the NT scriptures

    21 What does the original language of the scripture suggest was the method of appointing elders (church leaders) in the early churches?

    The original language of the scripture suggests that the method of appointing elders in the early churches was
    done by a show of hands under apostolic direction.

    22.Cite four scriptures which support a โ€œfirst dayโ€ meeting day for the church.

    Four scriptures which support a โ€œfirst dayโ€ meeting day for the church are John 20: 19 & 26, I Cor 16:2 and
    Acts 20: 7.

    23.Who apparently ruled in matters of discipline in the early church?

    The MAJORITY apparently ruled in matters of discipline in the early church

    24 With what five adverbs does is the proper manner of giving described?
    Giving should be systematically, proportionately, purposefully, liberally and cheerfully. see 2 Cor 8 & 9

    Note that the NY does not teach sowing seed into ministries as we see on tv currently.

    25 What three offices were evident in the apostolic church?

    The three offices that were evident in the apostolic church are:-
    1] pastor, elder or overseer
    2 deacon
    3] deaconess

    26. What is the real meaning of the word โ€œPastor?โ€
    The real meaning of the word โ€œPastorโ€ is shepherd

    27.What qualifications of an elder are not required for a deacon?

    Elders and deacons both had to have the SAME qualifications

    28 What was the primary responsibility of the deacons?
    The primary responsibility of the deacons was for the physical needs of the saints.

    29.The scriptures indicate that a woman in the church must not rule over a man (I Timothy 2:1112). How then may we account for women serving in the deaconate in the early church?

    We may account for women serving in the deaconate in the early church by supposing that they were used in
    areas where they functioned more adequately than men, and ,since the diaconate was not a governing body perhaps woman was allowed to serve thereon.

    30.Name and define the three basic types of church government that exist in “churches”.

    The three basic types of church government are the episcopal, the presbyterian and the congrgational.

    The episcopal type is the government of the church by bishops or overseers, in reality , by three different orders of ministers: bishops or overseers, priests, and deacons.

    The presbyterial is the government of the church
    by presbyters or elders. It usually provides for the following courts: the session, the presbytery, the synod,
    and the general assembly. There is but one order in the ministry, namely, pastors, ruling elders or elders,
    deacons. Both pastors and ruling elders take part in the meetings of the presbytery, synod, and general
    assembly.

    The congregational type of church government vests all legislative authority in the local church.

    District and general organizations are merely advisory in power and instituted simply for the purpose of
    cooperating in missionary work, educational work, and so forth.

    31.What does the New Testament term โ€œAppointedโ€ mean?

    The New Testament term โ€œAppointedโ€ means โ€œraise the hand.โ€

    32.What three items does the NT cite to support a congregational form of government in the apostolic church?

    The three items that the NT cites to support a congregational form of government in the apostolic church are:-
    1) Each church elected its 0fficers and delegates (Acts 6:1-6; 15:2f.
    (2) Each church had the own power to carry out its own church discipline (Matt. 18:17f.; I Cor. 5:13; 2 Cor. 2:6; 2 Thess. 3:6, 14f.).

    (3) The church, together with its officers, rendered decisions (Acts 15:22), received delegates (Acts 15:4; 18:27), and sent out Solicitors (2 Cor. 8:19) and missionaries (Acts 13:3f.; 14:26). The local congregation was actively involved in all the affairs of the church. Whatever delegated authority there was, did not ignore the needs of the body.


  46. As evident everyone has his or her interpretations of the scripture .theologians and historians would differ with the above comment .As I have read differing point of views on that issue,


  47. @Georgie Porgie… Just wondering…

    Are you ever able to speak for yourself? Argue your own points using only original language?

    Or are you dependent on the “cut-and-paste” exhibited here and elsewhere?

  48. Georgie Porgie Avatar

    I have cut and pasted my own work OK? Not from wicki or the internet OK?

    I have loads of it stored Sir. It can be assesed quite easily. It is now very apparent why it was done and stored. It can be assesed quite easily.

    And I have used the jargon oif Theology, just as I use the jargon of Medicine when I discuss medicine.

    Can you contribute on the topic at all Sir with any sensible comments.

    Can you give an interpretion of anything said from an actual personal study of the scriptures, or are your comments limited to peripheral nit picking. Can you say thus said the scriptures? Or can you only pick nits.


  49. @Georgie Porgie: “I have cut and pasted my own work OK? Not from wicki or the internet OK?

    Not OK. At least, not OK in my mind.

    Why did your above posted at April 4, 2010 at 9:41 PM start at point 21, and continue to point 32?

    Why must you post so much language each time, rather than simply answer the questions in original language?

    Please answer me this.

    And please further answer me my above question directly directed to you: “This is a problem? People being introduced to new ideas is a problem???

  50. Georgie Porgie Avatar

    Acts chapter 2 records the start of the True church

    Acts Chapter 2
    1. And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

    2. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

    3. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

    4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    5. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

    NOTE THIS HAPPENED AT JERUSALEM
    EVEN LITTLE PRE TEEN SUNDAY SCHOOL CHILDREN IN THE ANGLICAN CHURCH IN MY DAY UNDERSTOOD THIS

    Why were they there? They had come to Jerusalem for the feast of Pentecost as ordered according to the law.

    6. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

    7. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8. And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9. Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10. Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11. Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

    THESE VERSES INDICATE THAT THESE JEWS CAME FROM ALL OVER THE KNOWN WORLD

    12. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13. Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

    14. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

    NOTE that IN THE NEXT FEW VERSES PETER EXEGETED A PASSAGE FROM THE PROPHET JOEL
    16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    IN THE VERSES THAT FOLLOW PETER INDICATES THAT THE CHURCH WAS FOUNDED ON HIM? A CLEAR READING BY ANY LITERATE PERSON WILL SEE OTHERWISE

    PETER AGAIN EXEGETES SEVERAL OT PASAGES FROM THE MESSIANIC PSALMS WHICH PRECICTED THAT JESUS WAS CHRIST

    NOTE THAT AT NO TIME IN THIS SERMON – the first delivered in the church THAT PETER DOES NOT ONCE SAY HE WAS A POPE THE FOUNDATION OF THE CHURCH OR THAT HE WAS A ROMAN CATHOLIC

    ANY LITERATE PERSON CAN SEE THIS.

    22. Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24. Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

    NOTE AGAIN THAT PETER SPOKE ABOUT CHRIST AT EVERY TIME NOT ONCE DOES HE SPEAK ABOUT HIMSELF

    25. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26. Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27. Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    28. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

    29. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

    30. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31. He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    32. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

    33. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    34. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35. Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

    36. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    37. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    NOTE THAT PEER TO:LD THEM TO BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST

    NOTE THAT ONE RECIEVES THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT BY BELIEVING IN CHRIST NOT PETER!

    PETER WAS A SINNER LIKE US HE COULD NOT EVEN SAVE HIMSELF
    39. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

    40. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

    NOTE THE QUALIFICATIONS FOR CHURCH MEMBERSHIP

    41. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

    42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

    43. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

    44. And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45. And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

    46. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47. Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

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