Banner promoting anonymous crime reporting with a phone and contact number 1 800 TIPS (8477), featuring the Crime Stoppers logo and a QR code for submitting tips.

โ† Back

Your message to the BLOGMASTER was sent

Submitted by Terence Blackett

One of the greatest historical deceptions of all times is the refusal of mainstream Christianity as well as secular society to accept and advocate the original Black pre-eminence and presence in the Bible. This historical seismic rift created a fabrication of diabolical proportions which has ebbed and flowed for the last 4000 years right up to our present time.

Jesusโ€™ First Advent came at a critical time when the final 2000 year epoch of human history was to begin the process of bringing home the lost sons and daughters of Israel back into a harmonious relationship with their God (Yah) – that they had long forgotten and had rebelled against for centuries. This process would eventually culminate with the sealing of 144,000 โ€“ 12,000 from each of the 12 Tribes who will not see death, but will be translated at the end of human history โ€“ when Jesus will appear the second time in the eastern sky with over a trillion angels enshrouded with majesty that no eye has ever beheld.

Meantime, the house of God remains in a pile of rubble. The walls broken down. No agreement to be found. The sanctuary defiled. The priests and prophets lie โ€“ preaching and teaching to their own means and the followers seem to like it so. While the vast throng of Godโ€™s people are living in deception, apathy and disbelief because godliness and righteousness is enshrouded (wrapped up) in fickle, baseless religiosity with no real knowledge of God in the land.

In the Christian world, 11 oโ€™clock on Sunday morning is still the most segregated time of the week. The division within the church world is split down the middle between the Black church and the White church. The sad reality is that the division is not based on issues that are fundamentally theological in nature but rather on a lack of acceptance of the historical connotations and the legacy of a supremacist exegetical form of Christianity that was unleashed on Blacks in an attempt to scientifically control and manipulate a nation of people into a position of subservience and socioeconomic control. This divide, conquer and rule principle has even dulled the appetites of many who merely see Christianity as a tool the White man has used as a sabre of oppression to subjugate and force control of the minds of Black folks โ€“ a successful form of intrigue which still bears damnable fruit today.

This vicious lie took on dimensions long before the evolution of Christian religious modernity. The modern Ashkenazim Jew โ€“ PALESKIN converts (as far as 1100 years ago) a people (from the cold tundra-lands of Western/Eastern Europe) worked feverishly to assimilate and control all the nations of world (as far back as the Crusades) and to finally say they were whole again (with the formation of the state of Israel in 1948) โ€“ but that has been a colossal deception of gargantuan proportions swallowed by well-meaning Christians (both Black and White alike) and held up as a totem pole to be revered and worshipped like Mosesโ€™ serpent which was held up in the wilderness. Yet the 10 Tribes of millions of true Jewish/Israelite peoples are still very much scattered at large in every nook and cranny of earth (people particularly of Black ethnic origins) covering the landscape of earth โ€“ many still living under the weight of servitude and oppression.

Jesus had warned that upon โ€œthis Rockโ€ He would build His Church (many still believe it is the Catholic Church) โ€“ who through Satanโ€™s insidious work for thousands of years has built a counterfeit, corrupt, subversive monolith which tries to resemble the real thing and would fool the world into accepting the phony for the authentic. Moses was warned in Exodus 20: 25 that โ€œif thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.โ€ Every since then man has sought to carve out their own altar of stone in the hope that it would be acceptable to God โ€“ not realising that God wonโ€™t accept anything other than the genuine or what He has asked for.

Samuel L. Williams, former pastor of the 650-member Friendship Baptist Church and former chairman of Atlanta’s Human Relations Committee who was also academic dean at Morehouse College in Atlanta said – “White America would rather see this nation destroyed than give up white racism. The worst institution in America today is the white church. It has more hypocrisy per square inch than any other. And no impression I have received in the past five years has made any difference.”

C. Eric Lincoln defines in his book โ€œThe Black Church in the African American Experienceโ€ (Durham Duke University Press, 1990) – how โ€œthe Black Churchโ€ in America is seen as the independent, historic, and completely black-controlled denominations founded during slavery. Although there have been African-American believers in denominations governed by white Americans – the Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist, and Lutheran churches, for instance – Lincolnโ€™s definition includes 7 major historic Black denominations: the African Methodist Episcopal (A.M.E.) Church; the African Methodist Episcopal Zion (A.M.E.Z.) Church; the Christian Methodist Episcopal (C.M.E.) Church; the National Baptist Convention, U.S.A., Incorporated (N.B.C.); the National Baptist Convention of America, Unincorporated (N.B.C.A.); the Progressive National Baptist Convention (P.N.B.C.); and the Church of God in Christ (C.O.G.I.C.).

I however believe that as was aforementioned in my opening remarks on this issue that writers, theologians and academics are still blind-sided as to the part that ethnicity played in the Holy Scriptures from its inception โ€“ given that “Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married, for he had married an Ethiopian woman.” God then struck Miriam with leprosy. Why? Consider this possibility. In Godโ€™s anger at Miriam, (Mosesโ€™ sister), God says in effect, “how would you like to be pale-skinned Miriam? Then, Iโ€™ll make you pale-skinned.” So we read, “When the cloud removed from over the tent, behold, Miriam was leprous, like snow” (Num. 12:10). The question we must all ask โ€“ โ€œHow does God view color?โ€ Also, in determining any religious orthodoxy, what part does race, gender or social creed play in its makeup?

Racism in any form is still a difficult โ€œrealityโ€ to define far less comprehend given the fact that we are all potentially โ€“ โ€˜human beingsโ€™. In the book of the Acts of the Apostles, God convicted Peter of his religious racism in a vision and told him to accept the Gentiles as brothers in Christ. โ€œPeter opened his mouth and said: โ€œTruly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.โ€ (Acts.10: 34-35). Paul also wrote that โ€œThere is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.โ€ (Galatians 3:28). God made us and He made the color of our skins, and He saw that His work was good.

Even outside of mainstream Christianity, denominations like the Mormon church have long held that a visible code of religious bias and bigotry towards people of color even though the Bible reveals that Abraham married an Egyptian; Joseph, the son of Jacob (later called Israel) married an Egyptian woman Asenath and bore Ephraim and Manasseh; Moses married โ€œan Ethiopian womanโ€; and most importantly Judah married a Canaanite (BLACK) woman that Jesus Himself is a direct descendant of. So for me what beggars belief is – how can Mormons say that Hamites couldnโ€™t have the priesthood when the Israelites themselves were at least (for the sake of anthropological argument sake) ONE-THIRD Hamitic?

In the closing phases of a post-Apartheid South Africa, it was interesting to see the Dutch Reformed Church offer a public apology for the devilish curse of religious racism towards the oppressed majority โ€“ words that still echo some 20 years later but where little has really been done to heal an age-old rift between two altars of stones where the sacrifices of religious ceremony is still being offered to appease a God who wants nothing more than for all men to come into the unity of the faith.

I close with those famous words offered to the peoples of South Africa but words echoed down through the hallowed hallways of 400 years of separation, segregation and ethnic sanction of a race of people who continue to still be maligned because of the color of their skin: – ”We confess with humility and sorrow the participation of our church in the introduction and legitimation of the ideology of apartheid and the subsequent suffering of people..”

In conclusion, let me also echo the words of Jesus as they came forth from the mouth of Abraham Lincoln on June 16, 1858, where more than 1,000 Republican delegates met in the Springfield, Illinois, statehouse for the Republican State Convention.

At 5 p.m. they chose Abraham Lincoln as their candidate for the U.S. Senate, running against Democrat Stephen A. Douglas. At 8 p.m. Lincoln delivered his address to his Republican colleagues in the Hall of Representatives. The title of his speech came from a sentence in the speech’s introduction, “A House Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand,” which paraphrases a statement by Jesus in Matthew 12:25.

Lincoln’s friends believed the speech was too radical for the occasion. His law partner, William H. Herndon, thought that Lincoln was morally courageous but politically incorrect and possibly suicidal. Herndon said Lincoln told him he was looking for a universally known figure of speech that would rouse people to the peril of the times.

The speech began:

โ€œMr. President and Gentlemen of the Convention.

If we could first know where we are, and whither we are tending, we could then better judge what to do, and how to do it. We are now far into the fifth year, since a policy was initiated, with the avowed object, and confident promise, of putting an end to slavery agitation. Under the operation of that policy, that agitation has not only, not ceased, but has constantly augmented. In my opinion, it will not cease, until a crisis shall have been reached, and passed. โ€˜A house divided against itself cannot stand.โ€™ I believe this government cannot endure; permanently half slave and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved – I do not expect the house to fall – but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other. Either the opponents of slavery, will arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of ultimate extinction; or its advocates will push it forward, till it shall become alike lawful in all the States, old as well as new – North as well as South. Have we no tendency to the latter condition?

The question the modern Church must now ask โ€“ can we ill-afford another hundred years of the same old divisions or isnโ€™t time to heal the rift and have one altar upon which we offer our sacrifices?


Discover more from Barbados Underground

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

365 responses to “Two Altars Of Stone:- The Black Church Versus The White Church – A House Divided Against Itself”


  1. The Commission will reconvene the Rate Review Hearing on Thursday, January 28, 2010 at 10:00 a.m. at the Lloyd Erskine Sandiford Conference Centre, Two Mile Hill, St. Michael to deliver its Decision in this matter.

    Be there or be square.


  2. @All..

    Sorry, the “anonymous” immediately above was me.

    *I* will be at “Lloyd Erskine Sandiford Conference Centre” tomorrow to hear what the learned Commission have to Decide.

    And perhaps I will ask some additional questions, if I am allowed to do so….


  3. Anonymous LOL
    Hodie Sorry its Col 2:16

    How could I have made that error when only two years ago I did a lovely word study on Col 2:16 as part of a sermon.

    Ill share that sweet nuance and nugget with you here

    In Collosians 2: 14 Paul speaks of Jesus ‘blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us’.

    Now the word that Paul uses for handwriting is cheirographos. This word means a ‘signature’ or a ‘written agreement’. It came to mean technically ‘a written agreement acknowledging a debt; a ‘certificate of debt’, a ‘bond’

    A cheirographos was a document which acknowledged a debt that had to be paid. So Collosians 2: 14 tells us that Jesus erased or cancelling a certificate of debt that was held against us. e.g 2 Cor 1:9 or John 3:18 or 36.

    Now the interesting thing is this. There were two words used for cancelling a certificate of debt. The most common word for cancelling a certificate of debt was chiazein. Chiazein means to write the Greek letter chi, which has the same shape as a capital X, right across the document . There is recorded in the papyri an instance where after a trial in Egypt, the governor gives orders that a bond should be cancelled (chiazesthai), that is, ‘crossed out’.

    But Paul does not say that Jesus Christ ‘crossed out (chiazein) the record of our debt; he uses the other word exaleiphein.

    This is of great significance, because exaleiphein means to erase or ‘to wipe out or to obliterate’. It is so used of ‘wiping out’ a memory of an experience from one’s remembrance or one’s mind; of ‘cancelling’ a vote or ‘annulling’ a law; of ‘cancelling’ a charge or a debt or of ‘striking a man’s name off a roll’ or list; of ‘wiping a family completely out of existence’. It always has this meaning of wiping something out as you would with a sponge.

    It describes the effort using the contemporary chemicals and techniques the ladies used to remove stains and spots from garments, and grime from the tile grout in the bathroom etc.

    Paul does not say that Jesus Christ ‘crossed out (chiazein) the record of our debt; he says that he ‘wiped it out’ (exaleiphein).

    If you ‘cross a thing out’, beneath the cross the record still remains visible for anyone to read but if you ‘wipe it out’ the record is gone, obliterated for ever. It is as if God, for Jesus’ sake, not only ‘crossed out our debt, but ‘wiped it out’.

    There is many a man who can forgive, but who never really forgets the injury that was done to him; but God not only forgives but wipes out the very memory of the debt. There is a kind of forgiveness which forgives but still holds the memory against the sinner; but God’s forgiveness is that supreme forgivenes which can forgive and forget.

    God has forgotten our sin because it is blotted out by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    In Hebrews 10:17 we read โ€œAnd their sins and iniquities will I remember no moreโ€


  4. The Seventh-day Adventist Church, and the fourth commandment, the ‘Sabbath’ is it still binding on the New Testament Church?

    Sabbath keeping, or observance of the fourth Commandment of the decalogue, is the ‘core’ teaching and belief of Seventh-day Adventists. In fact, Ellen G. White wrote that:

    “Too late they see that the ‘Sabbath’ of the fourth commandment is the *Seal* of the living God.” (Great Controversy, p. 640, written in 1883) Emphasis added.

    So strongly is Adventist belief in the Sabbath, as the ‘Seal’ of God for His End Time remnant church, that those who honour the Lord’s Day on Sunday, the first day of the week, are considered by Seventh-day Adventists, to be partaking in ‘The mark of the beast.’

    Hear E.G. White again:

    “The sign, or ‘Seal’ of God is revealed in the *observance* of the seventh-day Sabbath…The mark of the beast IS the opposite of this- the observance of the ‘first’ day of the week (Sunday). (Testimonies, Vol. 8, p. 117, written in 1904). Emphasis added.

    Now, what does the New Testament Scripture say about, who IS the *Seal* of God on His NT Church?

    “You were MARKED in Him with a *SEAL*, the promised (Sabbath day, NO! NO! NO!) [the] HOLY SPIRIT” (Eph. 1:13) Emphasis added.

    “Do not grieve the HOLY SPIRIT of God, with whom you WERE *SEALED* for the day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30) Emphasis added.

    As I gave a day ot two ago, I’ll give it again.

    On this, ‘Ye were SEALED” A.T. Robertson, Professor of New Testament Interpretation, in the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary of Louisville, Kentucky, says:

    “Ye were sealed’ (esphragisthete). First aorist passive indicative of ‘sphragizo’ old verb, to set a SEAL on one as a mark or stamp, sometimes the marks of ownership or the worship of deities like ‘sitgmata’ (Gal. 6:17). Marked and AUTHENTICATED as God’s heritage as in 4:30, See II Cor. 1:22 for the very use of the metaphor here applied to the Holy Spirit, even with the word ‘arrabon’ (earnest), Spirit (pneumati). In the instrumental case. (Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. IV, The Epistles of Paul, p. 519). Emphasis added.

    This erroneous teaching of the Seventh-day Adventists, stand as the very ‘apex’ of the SDA church.

    Let us hear from the Word of God, re the Sabbath day, and to whom was it given as a seal?

    The first occurence of the word ‘Sabbath’ meaning ‘cessation’ is found in Exodus 16. Yes, the principle is seen in Genesis 2: 2-3, BEFORE ‘the fall’, BUT, no where from ADAM to MOSES, a period of about 2,500 years, do we find God commanding anyone to KEEP the Sabbath, until here in Exodus. We must note carefully, the language God uses to establish Sabbath observance, bearing in mind, always, NOT to ADD, nor TAKE AWAY from His Word, lest He reprove you, and thou be found A LIAR. (Prov. 30:6)

    The Seal of The Mosaic Covenant.

    “And the Lord spoke unto Moses saying, Speak thou also unto THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, saying, Verily, My Sabbaths, YE (ISRAEL) shall keep: for it is a sign between (WHO?) Me and YOU (Israel) throughout your generations” (Exodus 31: 13) Emphasis added.

    Again in verse 16, we read:

    “Wherefore THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL shall keep the Sabbaths, to observe the Sabbath throughout THEIR Generations, for a perpetual covenant.” (Exodus 31: 16). emphasis added.

    “It is a SIGN between (Who?) Me (God) and (Who?) the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, for ever” (v. 17) emphasis added.

    In Ezekiel 20 verse 12, we read:

    “More over also, I gave them (Israel) my Sabbaths, to be a sign between (Who?) Me (God) and THEM (Israel) that they (Israel) might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them (Israel). Emphasis added.

    Again in Nehemiah 9 verses 13 and 14, we read:

    “Thou (God) camest down also upon Mount Sinai, and spake with THEM (Israel) from heaven, and gave THEM right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments.”

    Listen carefully to verse 14:

    “And madest KNOWN unto them (Israel) thy HOLY SABBATH” (Nehemiah 9:14) emphasis added.

    The antecedent ERROR of the Seventh-day Adventist church, and other ‘Sabbatarians’ IS believing, erroneously, that Israel (the Jews) from the Old Testament, have no future in God’s End Time events, and that the ‘Church’ IS now ‘Spiritual’ Isreal’ receiving the promises made to the Jews in the Abrahamic Covenant.

    Regarding those who confuse ‘Israel’ with the ‘Church’ Dr. Seiss says:

    “There IS no vice or device of sacred hermeneutics which so beclouds the Scriptures, and so unsettles the faith of men, as this attempt to read ‘Church’ for ‘Israel’ and Christian peoples for Jewish Tribes.”

    This vitally important subject of the absolute distinction between ‘The Nation of Israel’ the twelve tribes, and the ‘Church’ the Body of Christ, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile, cannot be dealt wit here, as it would take a volume in itself. Nevertheless, I must skim the surface of it, as it directly relates to this ‘erroneous’ doctrine of the ‘imposition’ of the Sabbath-day, observence, that has caused much confusion among Christians from various denominations.

    The Apostle Paul deals with ‘Israel’ as a distinct ‘entity’ from the Church in Romans chapter 11, the extent of Israel’s rejection (partial) verses 1-10, Paul begins by asking the question:

    “I say then, hath God cast away His people? (Israel). God forbid, for I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, the tibe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away His people (Israel) which He forknew…(vv. 1,2) emphasis added.

    Paul then deals with the purpose of Israel’s rejection (vv. 11-24),

    “Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and if the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much MORE their fulness’ (Restoration) v.12.

    Paul then deals with the duration of Israel’s rejection (temporary vv, 25-32). Listen as Paul explains under Divine inspiration, as he wrote:

    “For I would not, brethren (Christians) that ye should be IGNORANT of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that (What?) blindness in part happened to Israel, UNTIL the FULNESS of the Gentiles come in” (v.25) emphasis added.

    Verse 27 then states:

    “For this IS My covenant with them (Israel), when I SHALL take away their SINS” emphasis added.

    The preceding verse at the end says, “…and shall turn away ungodliness from JACOB.’ (v.26b). Any reference to ‘Jacob’ is always speaking abour “Israel’ the Jews.

    In verse 28, Paul then says:

    “And concerning the Gospel, they (Israel) are enemies for you (Gentiles) sake: but as touching the ELECTION, (What election?) they (Israel) are beloved for the Father.”

    The election that Paul is alluding to, are the ‘PROMISES’ made to the Patriarchs, because, they are IRREVOCABLE; Israel must be restored, why is so?

    “For the GIFTS and CALLING of God are without repentance” (v. 29) emphasis added.

    This is just a brief look at the Biblical facts from both the Old and New Testaments, that the Nation of Israel IS NOT the Church in this present dispensation, as some erroneously believe and teach; as this IS the’root’ falsehood of ‘Sabbatarianism’ in seeking to *impose* a legalistic observance upon Christians from the Mosaic Covenant, which has no Scriptural basis, when sound principles of Hermeneutics are observed and applied; taking what The Lord Jesus Christ had to say about which is the great Commandment of them all; and the most gifted and anointed Apostle of them all, Paul, who understood the Mosaic Law, second only to Jesus, that it Ministered DEATH, yes, death!

    “But if the MINISTRATION of DEATH, written (Where?) and engraven on STONES, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance: which Glory was to be DONE AWAY.” (II Cor. 3;7) Emphasis added.

    What did Jesus Say About ‘The Law’ and Sabbath observance?

    Did Jesus have anything by way of instruction, teaching, regarding keeping the ‘Sabbath’? Keeping the ‘Ten Commandments?’ And, if so, how did He express it?

    Did Jesus in anyway, summarize the ‘Ten Commandments’ ‘The Law’ bearing in mind, that He NEVER made any distinction between the Ceremonial and Moral Law, for when He said, ‘The Law’ it encompassed ‘All the Law and the Prophets.”

    The function of ‘The Law’ including the Ten Commandments in the Old Testament, is clearly and distinctly contrasted in the New Testament with the ‘principle’ or ‘the Spirit of LOVE’, as this IS the very essence of the New Testament dispensation of Grace, that IS, the *imperative* of LOVE!

    Lets see how Jesus answered the probing Pharisaical Lawyer, in Matthew 22: 34-40.

    ‘But when the Pharisees had heard that He had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.”

    “Then one of them, which is a lawyer, asked Him a question, tempting Him, and saying’

    “Master, which is the GREAT COMMANDMENT in the Law?”

    Take careful note of Jesus’ response to this most serious profound and relevant question:

    “Jesus said unto him, ‘Thou shalt love The Lord Thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.”

    “This IS the FIRST and GREAT COMMANDMENT.”

    “And the second is LIKE UNTO it, thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”

    The Lord Jesus Christ, was the first person to combine these two text from Deuternomy 6:5, and Leviticus 19:18.

    Having identified the TWO GREAT COMMANDMENTS, Jesus now concludes by summarizing ‘All the Law’ and its requirements, let us hear HIM, not what Ellen White has to say, always mindful, “Add thou NOT unto His WORDS, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a LIAR.” (Prov. 30:6)

    Jesus raps it up by saying:

    “On the TWO COMMANDMEBTS hang (How much of the law” 99%, NO!) ALL THE LAW and the Prophets” (Matt. 24: 34-40) Emphasis added.

    What does Paul, himself a strict ‘Law’ abiding, Law keeping Pharisee, prior to his conversion on the road to Damascus, have to say on this matter in Romans 13: 8-10?

    ‘Owe no man anything, but to LOVE one another: for he that loveth another, hath FULFILLED The LAW” (v. 8) emphasis added.

    How do we know, that just like Jesus, Paul is referring to the ‘Ten Commandments’ when he refers to ‘The Law?” Let us read on and see!

    “For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; (v. 9a)

    Notice, that in identifying FIVE of the Ten Commandments, at NO time does Paul mention the ‘Sabbath’ but simply alludes to the other FIVE Commandments by saying:

    “And if there be OTHER COMMANDMENTS, (the other FIVE) it is briefly comprehended (summarized) in this saying, namely, Thou shalt LOVE thy neighbour as thyself” (v.9b) emphasis added

    Now, do you think, that Jesus and Paul, would deal with such vitally important matters, such as how DOES ONE KEEP, and FULFILL, ‘The Law’ specifically, ‘The Ten Commandments’ and NOT specifically indentify and point out, the Sabbath, the fourth Commandment, IF this were necessary for the New Testament Church, to observe; but, RATHER, both Jesus and Paul, make NO MENTION of it AT ALL!

    Paul then concludes, just like Jesus in Matthew 22: 40, by saying:

    “Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: Therefore LOVE IS the *FULFILLING* of THE LAW: (v. 10) emphasis added.

    The salient and imperative POINT that Jesus and Paul stresses, IS this, that keeping The Ten Commandments, has absolutely NOTHING to do with any one particulsr DAY, i.e., the Sabbath, why not? Because LOVING GOD and your NEIGHBOUR as yourself, IS something that you DO, all the time, every SINGLE day of the WEEK, ALL SEVEN DAYS, Monday through Sun day, hence why Jesus nor Paul said anything about Sabbath observance, in fulfilling The Law!

    “For ALL THE LAW is FULFILLED in *one* WORD, even this: Thou shalt LOVE thy neighbour as thyself.” (Gal. 5:14) emphasis added.

    The word rendered *FULFILLED* is from the Greek word ‘pleroo’ which means, ‘To make FULL’ and when used as a task or a course of action, ‘To FULLY perform’ here in Galatians ;To fully OBEY.’ Dr. Kenneth Wuest, in his work, Wuest’s Word Studies, from the Greek New Testament, Vol, 1, p, 151, says:

    “The verb is in the perfect tense, and the translation could read, ‘The whole Law stands FULLY OBEYED,”

    The Ten Commandment were never abolished, they were COMPLETELY obeyed, and FULFILLED by Christ, for He IS the Only ONE, who kept them perfectly, thus satisfying the requirements of His Father’s Law. He then, also, fulfilled the JUST requirement for the PENALTY of ALL of us, who broke ALL the Ten Commandments, one way or another, by again, satisfying His Father’s Righteousness and Justice, by DYING on the Cross, in order to FULLFILL God’s Just demands that some one MUST pay the ultimate PENALTY, for braking His Law, the Ten Commandments, which ALL of mankind DID, one way or another.

    So, Jesus KEPT His Father’s LAW, the Commandments perfectly, AND, then PAID in *FULL* the Just requirement of the LAW, by dying in our stead, our place.

    Therefore, as the late Dr. Walter Martin, one of the most gifted Apologist/polemicist of the twentieth century, now with the Lord in conscious, eternal glory, once wrote, with which I wholeheartedly concur:

    “The Christian stand under ‘the perfect
    law of liberty’ which enables him to *fulfill* the righteousness of ‘The Law’ by the imperative of LOVE.” emphasis added.


  5. @ GP……” God has forgotten our sin because it is blotted out by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    In Hebrews 10:17 we read โ€œAnd their sins and iniquities will I remember no moreโ€
    ……………………………………………………
    Dr., This is exactly my understanding but with the proviso that we must lay claim, or take advantage, on the Atonement of Jesus Christ and place our utmost faith in Him.
    So yes, yet another point on which we are in agreement.
    Many thanks.


  6. Cool Hoodie
    Great piece of exegesis Zoe!


  7. I am always taken aback about the way people pray .I always wonder why they always ask for so much from God.and to make matters worse the unlimited time they spend on doing so.
    Jesus gave us a model pray and in it he ask for forgiveness. food . and avoidance of temptation .So i am always taken back by the amount of time people pray for themselves and so little for others.I wonder what does God do with such prayers.


  8. Roots gone international

    Hard On The Rootsman

    I says the living is rough
    Rootsman
    I says the time is rough
    Rootsman
    I says the time is tough

    Can’t get transportation
    to take your produce to town
    you’ll be hitching a ride
    you’ve got no money too hide

    So many man have to travel
    In an open truck back
    And that’s a fact

    Rootsman
    Don’t you ever give up
    Rootsman
    I says this country is rough
    the runnings are rough


  9. Due to the plethora of religious threads on
    the underground we have been forced to
    undertake some deeply spiritual thinking
    to determine we don’t really like Bible-
    bashers .
    (sorry mum)


  10. Seventh-day Adventism.

    The Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary and the Investigative Judgment!

    The ‘central pillar’ of Adventism is this distinctive and unique doctrine, ‘The Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary and the Investigative Judgment.

    Dale Ratzlaff, in his ‘The Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventist, An Evangelical Resource; An Appeal to SDA Leadership’ as a fomer SDA Pastor, whose sound Biblical Hermeneutics, shatters another *Myth* of Adventist theology.

    About the Author.

    “Dale Ratzlaff, M.Div., was a fourth generation Seventh-day Adventist (SDA) and was educated in SDA schools from first grade through seminary. He taught Bible at a SDA high school for seven years and pastored two SDA churches.”

    “In 1980 and 1981 a series of events led him to do an in-depth study of the SDA doctrine of the investigative judgment and cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary, which Adventist teach started in 1844 and continues to this day. He became convinced that this doctrine could NOT be supported by Scripture, was CONTRARY to clear biblical teaching, and UNDERMINED the New Covenant Gospel of Grace. This caused Mr. ratzlaff and his wife, Carolyn, to leave the SDA denomination.”

    “In 1982 Mr. Ratzlaff lead a group of Christians in a seven-month inductive Bible study of the Sabbath. He continued studing the topic of the Gospel, the covenants, and the Sabbath, and published ‘Sabbath in Crisis’ in 1990.”

    As former SDA Pastor Dale Ratzlaff states:

    “While the SDA doctrine of the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary was taught after the disappointment of 1844, ‘the investigative judgment doctrine was not taught until 1857.’ [See Paul A. Gordon, ‘The Sanctuary, 1844, and Pioneers, (Washington D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1883) p.88] However, Adventist teach that the investigative judgment started in 1844. After 1857 these two unique SDA doctrines are inseparably connected in the writing of Ellen G. White.”

    When the principle text that Seventh-day Adventist use to support this strange doctrine are carefully analyzed by using the sound principles of Biblical Hermeneutics, Contextual Analysis, and Linguistic Exegesis, this SDA doctrine does NOT have any sound basis on which to stand!

    As the late Dr. Walter Martin wrote:

    “The view of Hiram Edson is, so far as this writer is concerned, an attempt to ESCAPE the terrible calamity which befell the Millerite movement and the *disappointment* and *embarrassment* that must have followed the failure of the Millerite prophecies and their interpretations of the Book of Daniel.” (The Kingdom of the Cults, p. 474) emphasis added throughout.

    Martin then goes on to correctly assert:

    “We have seen, however, that the Millerites were bitterly disappointed, and when Christ did not appear, Miller himself renounced the system and ALL resultant movements, including Seventh-day Adventism.” (Ibid., p.473)

    Even the husband of Ellen White, James White, as Martin alludes to: ‘…a stalwart Seventh-day Adventist leader, when first confronted with this doctrine of the Investigative Judgment, opposed it in toto, giving in substance the very arguments put forth by ALL subsequent ex-Seventh-day Adventist. It was only after considerable time that James White finally acceded to the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment.’ (Ibid., p.474).

    I am extremely familiar with all of the SDA postulations in order to justify this unbiblical doctrine, and therefore need not quote extensively from your writings; suffice to say, as Dr. Martin points out, it is the ‘…very heart of Seventh-day Adventist teaching relative to the expiation of sin, which is that the SINS of believers have been transfered, deposited or recorded in the ‘heavenly sanctuary’ and ARE NOW being dealt with in the ‘Investigative Judgment.’ (Ibid., p.475).

    Getting into the meat, so-to-speak, of this aberration of the real meaning of Jesus’ Atoning Death on Calvary; Martin looks carefully at one of Ellen White’s teachings.

    “Mrs. White made it clear that the sin transfered to the Sanctuary in Heaven would remain there UNTIL the conclusion of the ‘Investigative Judgment’ and the subsequent ‘Cleansing of the Sanctuary”

    Ellen White believed and taught:

    “The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from condemnation of the LAW, was NOT to cancel sin; it would stand on the record in the ‘sanctuary’ UNTIL the final atonement; so the type, the blood of the sin offering removed the sin from the penitent, BUT it rested in the sanctuary until the day of atonement.” ( Ellen G. White, Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 357).

    In order to substantiate this position, Adventist resort to Acts 3:19 from the KJV: “Repent ye therefore and be converted that you sins may be blotted out ‘when’ the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.”

    This error in translation as occured in the KJV, incorrectly renders the Gk. particle ‘an’ as ‘WHEN’ which Adventist gladly grab hold of, to buttress suport for this false doctrine; let us hear from eminent Greek scholar, A.T. Robertson on Acts 3;19.

    “Repent therefore (metanoesate own). Peter repeats to this new crowd the command made in Acts 2:38 which see. God’s purpose and patience call for instant change of attitude on their part. Their guilt does not shut them out if they will turn. ‘And turn again’ ( kai epistrepsate). Definitely turn to God in conduct as well as in mind. ‘That your sins may be blotted out’ (pros to exaliphthenai humon tas harmartias) Articular infinitive (first aorist passive of ‘exaleiphao’, to wipe OUT, RUB OFF, ERASE, smear out, old verb, but in the N.T only here and Col. 2:14) with the accusative of general reference with ‘pros’ and the accusative to express purpose. ‘That so’ (hopos an). Final particle with ‘an’ and the aorist active subjunctive ‘elthosin’ (COME) and NOT ‘when’ as the Authorized Version has it. The word ‘anapsuxis’ (from ‘anapsucho’ to cool or refresh, II Tim. 1:16) is a late word (LXX) and occurs here alone in the N.T. Surely repentance will bring ‘seasons’ of refreshing from the presence of the Lord.” (Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. III, pp. 45,46).

    As Dr. Martin correctly points out:

    “The chief difficulty with the Adventist contention is that the Greek of Acts 3:19 DOES NOT substantiate their teaching that the blotting out of sins will take place as a SEPARATE event from the forgiveness of sins. According to modern translations (the Revised, the American Standard and the Revised Standard Versions), the text should read: “Repent therefore and turn again that your sins may be blotted out, THAT (Not, When!) times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.”

    As Martin then goes on to say:

    “Peter was urging his listeners to repent, turn from their sins, in ORDER to receive the forgiveness that comes from the presence of the Lord. This text gives our Adventist brethren NO support for their ‘heavenly sanctuary, investigative jufgment’ teaching.” (The Kingdom of the Cults, p. 476).

    The group of text that Seventh-day Adventist rely upon in order to justify the investigative judgment are Daniel 7:9; 8:14; Revelation 14:7 and 11:8, which refer to ‘judgment,’ ‘books,’ and therefore the SDA attempt to prove that the investigative judgment is meant. But, when proper contextual analysis of each of these text is done, it becomes patently clear and obvious, thay IT IS IN complete disharmony with the New Testament theology of the status of the Redeemed sons and daughters of Almighty God, in Christ Jesus.

    As Dr. Martin so righty states:

    “The Bible explicitly declares that when one accepts Christ as Lord, God freely forgives ALL his sins and ushers him from ‘spiritual death’ to ‘spiritual LIFE, solely on the merits of the perfect life and death of the Lord Jesus Christ. To this Adventists fully agree, and this makes their teaching on’investigative judgment’ inconsistent. In John 5:24 the Greek deal a DEVASTATING blow to the Seventh-day Adventist concept of investigative judgment.” (Ibid., p. 476)

    Let us hear Jesus on this most sublime matter:

    “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE, and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION, but IS passed from DEATH unto LIFE” ( John 5:24) emphasis added.

    These are the words of the Second Person of the Eternal Godhead, none other than The Lord Jesus Christ. Before looking at the Greek in this text, do the words here spoken by Jesus, divinely inspired and recorded in God’s Word, sound even remotely, like if ‘Justified’ believers will be subjected to some investigative judgment, where as Ellen White wrote, that the sins of believers have been TRANSFERED, deposited or recorded in the heavenly sanctuary, and are NOW being dealt with in the investigative judgment, to see WHO makes it into Heaven?

    Listen to the Greek text, inspired by the Holy Spirit:

    “Hath eternal life (echei zoen aionion). Has NOW this spiritual LIFE which is ENDLESS. See 3:36. In verses 24 and 25 Jesus speaks of spiritual LIFE and spiritual DEATH. In this passage (21 to 29) Jesus speaks now of physical LIFE and DEATH, (note carefully!) now of spiritual (LIFE), and one must note carefully the quick transitiin. In Rev. 20:14 we have the phrase ‘the second death’ with which language compare Rev. 20: 4-6.

    But hath passed OUT OF DEATH into LIFE (alla metabebeken ek tou thanatou eis ten zoen). Perfect active indicative of ‘metabaino’ PASS from ONE PLACE or STATE to ANOTHER, Out of spiritual DEATH (separation from God, NOR annihilation) INTO spiritual LIFE, and SO, NO JUDGMENT (krisis). (Word Pictures in The New Testament, Vol. V, p. 86).

    This one verse alone from the New Testament, and there are others, are profoundly devastating to the erroneous, ‘concept’ of the investigative judgment. In truth and fact, the investigative judgment of the Seventh-day Adventists, is such an affront to, and UTTER CONTEMPT of what The Lord Jesus Christ declared in John 5:24, emphatically confirmed by the Greek grammar!

    Fundamental Error of Adventism.

    One of the fundamental errors of the Seventh-day Adventists, is taking text from the Old Testameny dispensation of the Law, and imposing THEM, entirely out of CONTEXT, on the New Testament dispensation for the redeemed children of God. Yes, we, who are ‘Justified’ shall all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, to receive ‘rewards’ or lack thereof, done after ‘Justification’ ( 2 Cor. 5:10), BUT, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with any investigative judgment. It is NOT concerning the believers salvation, for that was settled at Calvary. It is a judgment of his WORKS and service for the Lord, AFTER being Saved, Justified!

    The Scriptures clearly teach, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins and to CLEANSE us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS” ( I John 1:9)

    As Dr. Martin assrts:

    “Further evidence of the completeness of the forgiveness of God and the CLEANSING POWER of the blood of Christ, is found in the first chapter of the book of Hebrews, where the Holy Spirit chose the Greek word “katharismon’ from which we derive ‘cathartic.’ Hence it is said of the Lord Jesus and His sacrifice that He alone, ‘By Himself’ gave to our sinful spiritual nature, the complete CATHARTIC of forgiveness and purification on the cross. Christians may now rejoice that the Lord Jesus Christ, is NOT engaged in weighing our frailties and failures. We cannot, therefore, accept the Adventist teaching on the investigative judgment, since we are convinced that it HAS no warrant in Scripture. We must reject what we believe to be their un-biblical concept that the sins of believers remain in the sanctuary until the day of blotting out of sins.” (Ibid.m p.477).

    That there is NO investigative judgment for believers, is plainly and emphatically stated by Paul in Romans 8:1, let us hear the Word of God, not the council of men, and Ellen White:

    “There IS therefore now NO CONDEMNATION (investigative judgment of any kind) to those who are IN CHRIST JESUS, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life IN CHRIST JESUS has MADE me FREE from the law of sin and DEATH.” Emphasis added.

    Sanctified Christians, are therefore FREE from any of God’s banishing judgments. Therefore, to impose the heavy weight that Adventist do on their adherents, by HOLDING over their heads, this terrible, un-scriptural investigative judgment, which obviouysly was a face-saving device in the wake of the devastating great disappointing of 1844, denying themselves of experiencing the joy of salvation, and absolute forgiveness of ALL sin, purchased for us by Jesus’s completly expiating sacrifice on Calvary, which has CLEANSED and PURGED, all the SINS of those who are in CHRIST JESUS!


  11. Thanks Zoe

    Appreciate this edifying article and your scholarship, Sir.


  12. This is the cut!!

    Stepping Into Tomorrow

    Doo Wap
    Jamaican Style

    Daddyโ€™s Home
    to stay


  13. I LOVE THIS ONE TOO!!

    Think Twice


  14. On another note, the Anglican Church in the Caribbean will be updating its hymnal which Dr.P feels is its most appealing attribute. According to Archbishop John Holder the songs in the hymnal will be replaced with some Caribbean rhythms!


  15. @DAVID

    Thanks very much for giving this article wings –

    I have just arrived back in the UK….

    My 11 week Sabbatical in the US has now passed and it is good to be back home with wife + FAM*…

    It seems like this thread is still garnering some ball by ball commentary on the virtues or lack thereof of SDA theology… LOL!!!

    For anyone who is keen or probably has too much time on their hands – I am enclosing a link of some comprehensive analysis on this issue – (not a subtle attempt at “BASHING” as some have been doing), by CUTTING & PASTING randomized info from a wealth of sources across the INTERNET( that is not SCHOLARSHIP* but senseless borrowing) and in some places without proper citation – (equally complicit in the same “sin” EGW is supposedly guilty of ….

    FOR A FULL SPECTRUM ANALYSIS – AND A ONE-STOP SHOP ON THE ISSUES PERTAINING TO SDA THEOLOGY – PLEASE SEE THE BELOW LINK AND DO YOUR OWN INDEPENDENT STUDY (accepting the feeble machinations of those who lay claims to knowledge for which they are clueless about can prove to be a very dangerous thing)…

    A mind is truly a terrible thing to waste….

    http://www.search.com/reference/Criticism_of_the_Seventh-day_Adventist_Church


  16. Who takes Wikepedia articles seriously?

    Which serious scholars have regad for Wikepedia?
    Which are the Wickepedia articles anf more authentic or authoritative that Zoe’s submissins?
    Because you say so?

    You continue with your insults I see.

    What do you mean by “A mind is truly a terrible thing to wasteโ€ฆ.”

    You say in your silly post that
    CUTTING & PASTING randomized info from a wealth of sources across the INTERNET( that is not SCHOLARSHIP* but senseless borrowing) and in some places without proper citation โ€“ (equally complicit in the same โ€œsinโ€ EGW is supposedly guilty of โ€ฆ.

    How does the aerticle on Wiklepedia that is filled with SDA bias and propasganda differ from Zoe’s post?

    Zoe has explained from the Scriptires why he holds his views. And he has quoted sources that can be bought and read by any one that wants t do so.

    So so called FULL SPECTRUM ANALYSIS โ€“ AND ONE-STOP SHOP ON THE ISSUES PERTAINING TO SDA THEOLOGY is a farce!

    My family and I do not at all find the post by Zoe to be feeble machinations at all

    And whereas we do not like hs style of delivery we all know that he knows what he is talking about when he posts on BU.

    How can you say that the man is clueless?

    There is nothing dangerous about the information he has supplied.

    I hope that he continues to educate the BU family on the SDA’s.

    He obviously knows what he is saying, and he clearly shows that he has understood what he has read.

    a


  17. It is common practice to correct a typo by sending a subsequent message where an asterisk precedes or follows the correct word. For example:
    David 123: some Caribbean rhythms
    David 123: Riddims*
    Dubbing My Baby

    Carribean Dub

    Dub I Can Feel

    I Got A Woman

    HALLELUJAH

    Keep it to Yourself


  18. @ David
    On the Anglican Church updating its hymnal.

    Apparently, the book is no longer printed and only a few Dioceses use it any longer. This is sad.

    Apart from two obvious verses in two hymns Hymns A & M contains some lovely hymns- many of which are doctrinal or paraphrases of Scripture.

    The tunes are unmatched!
    There are some great Gospel Song tunes by PP Bliss, Charles Gabriel etc, But hmn tunes by William Henry Monk & Joh Stainer are in another class.

    One of my favorite Anglican hymns is

    ONCE, ONLY ONCE, AND ONCE FOR ALL, HIS PRECIOUS BLOOD HE SHED which is a solid summary of the teaching of Hebrews 9 whose key word is of course ONCE.

    The two glaring examples of unsound Theology in Anglican hyms are in two favorite Childrens hymns.

    In Christ who once among us as a child did dwell……..the sentiment that is unscriptural is ” If we keep his promise made him at the font….”

    Infants cant make promises and dont become Christians by baptism by sprinkling.

    The other once is “I was made a Christian when my name was given”


  19. Seventh-day Adventism.

    The Sleep of the Soul and the Destruction of the Wicked.

    Before peceding to look at another false doctrine of Adventism, let me state emphatically, that I have NOT cut and pasted ANY THING from the Internet or Wiki; what ever source I quote from, is taken directly from my own personal library of competent, recognized scholars on the subject matter.

    The doctrine of *conditional* immorality, commonly called ‘soul sleep’ outside Adventist circles, and its necessary corollarly, *Annihilation* have been cardinal teachings from the beginning of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

    The question is, does the New Testament Scripture, which are a fuller revelation of the ‘soul’ ‘spirit’ of man, than the ‘partial’ revelation given in the Old Testament, teach this doctrine of ‘soul sleep, that is, that the *soul* of man goes into a state of *unconsciousness* waiting the Resurrection of the body?

    As Dr. Walter Martin, in his work, “Kingdom of The Cults’ a masterpiece of scholarship, says:

    “However, neither preponderance of one opinion nor of a few great thinkers can VALIDATE theological speculation or interpretation. The Christian Church DOES NOT base its beliefs in the conscious bliss of departed saints on the opinions of individuals, no matter how prominent or learned, but UPON the historic, Biblical foundation of the Christian faith.” (p. 447) emphasis added throughout.

    1. Textual Analysis.

    “The Seventh-day Adventist doctrine of the sleep of the soul is best explained in their own words: ‘We as Adventist believe that, in general, the Scriptures teach that the soul of man represents the whole man, and not a particular part independent of the other component parts of man nature; and further, that the soul cannot exist apart from the body, for man is a unit…We, as Adventist, have reached the definite conclusion that man rest in the tomb until the resurrection morning. Then, at the first resurrection (Revelation 20: 4,5), the resurrection of the just (Acts 24: 15), the righteous come forth immortalized at the call of Christ, the Lifegiver, and they then enter life everlasting in their eternal home in the kingdom of glory. Such is our understanding.” (Questions on Doctrine, pp. 515,520) (Ibid., 447, 448).

    It is interesting to note carefully, the last phrase quoted by Martin from the Adventist, (Questions on Doctrine, pp. 515, 520) ‘They then enter into ‘life everlasting’ in their eternal home in the kingdom of glory.’

    This concept of ‘eternal life’ only beginning at the ‘Resurrection’ is NOT the teaching of the Word of God contained in the following passages:

    1. I John 5: 11-13: “And this IS the record, that God hath GIVEN to us *ETERNAL LIFE*, and this LIFE is in His Son. He that hath the Son, HATH life; and he that hath NOT the Son of God, hath NOT life. These things have I written unto you that BELIEVE on the name of the Son of God; that ye may *KNOW* the ye HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and that ye may BELIEVE on the name of the Son of God.” Emphasis added.

    As Dr. Martin so correctly points out:

    “In the grammar and context of this passage eternal life (eionion zoes) IS THE PRESENT *possession* of every believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, and if the term ‘eternal LIFE’ does not include *conscious fellowship* then the whole New Testament meaning is destroyed. The Holy Spirit USED the present indicative active of the verb ‘echo’ expressing PRESENT, CONTINUOUS action. Thus we see that the believer, having been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, ALREADY *possesses* never ending LIFE as a continuing QUALITY of conscious existence.”

    2. John 11: 25, 26: “Jesus said unto her, I AM the resurrection and the life; he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, YEt shall he live; and whosoever believeth liveth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believeth thou this?’

    Now, the Seventh-day Adventist, twist and distort the plain obvious grammatical structure and INTENT here conveyed by the Holy Spirit, in His use of the words, that CANNOT be misunderstood.

    Jesus IS saying to to Matha, consoling her, that upon the physical death of her brother, Lazarus, and by using the words “LIFE” and “DEATH” was refering to that particular occasion, by context.

    Any serious student of the Word of God, recognize that in any study of the doctrine of eternal life and immortality, it IS vitally essential and important to apply the hermeneuctic principle of (comparing ALL texts on a given subject) of interpretation, and the application of this sound principle, leads to the following facts.

    As Martin correctly states:

    “The root meaning for the words “death” and “life” in the New Testament usage (‘death’ THANATOS, in its verb form ‘apothnesko,’ and “life” ‘zoe’ or its vern form ‘zac) are respectively “separation or to separate.” from communion or fellowship. The Scriptures describe two types of DEATH, physical and spiritual, the former being separation of the BODY from the SOUL, and the latter being the separation of the SOUL from God as a result of sin. Also, two kinds of LIFE are spoken of in the New Testament: physical LIFE (bios), which is the union or communion of the BODY and SOUL; and spiritual LIFE (zoe), which is the communion or fellowship of the SOUL with God. These term we equate with the Greek of the New Testament, and they are essential to an understanding of Christ words to Martha.” (Ibid., 448, 449) emphasis added.

    Jesus, was therefore, not only consoling Martha, who like others up to that point in time, only having had the ‘partial’ revelation given in the Old Testament, regarding the death of their love ones, that NOW, that HE, who IS the Resurrection and the LIFE, has come, would GIVE to us, the fuller revelation of the SOUL, LIFE and DEATH, and what IT really meant.

    As Martin goes on to so correctly exegete the text:

    “Now let us look carefully at this context with NO violation to hermeneutics or grammar, and this GREAT TRUTH becomes clear. John 11:20 tells us that as soon as Martha head that Jesus was coming to Bethany, she went out to meet Him. In verse 21 she greets Him thus: “Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.” In answer to her obvious affliction and grief, Jesus, with divine compassion, stated,”Thy brother shall rise again.” Verse 24 indicated, however, that Martha thought He was referring to the resurrection of the dead which will take place at the “last day.”

    “To dispel her confused and grief-instilling concept of life (spiritual life) Jesus gives comfort beyond measure: “I AM the RESURRECTION and the LIFE,” He declares; “he that believes in Me, even though he were dead, YET shall he live, and the one LIVING and believing in Me SHALL NEVER DIE.”

    “Now, it is apparent from the context of verse 25 that Jesus was referring to Martha’a brother Lazarus, one who believed in Him and had PHYSICALLY died. Christ’s promise IS, ‘yet shall he live.” BUT, going beyond this, Jesus lifts the VEIL and reveals that, in the realm of the PHYSICALLY alive, whoever believes in Him SHALL NEVER experience the greatest of all terrors, SPIRITUAL DEATH.”

    “The Greek is extremely powerful in verse 26, for our Lord deliberately used the DOUBLE NEGATIVE, a construction which intensifies with GREAT emphasis that to which it is applied. Jesus could NOT grammatically have been more EMPHATIC in stating that the believer, who IS both ALIVE physically and spiritually, can NEVER experience loss of communion of fellowship as a spiritual entity, though his body, may ‘become’ DEAD.” (Ibid., pp. 448,449) emphasis added.

    The Seventh-day Adventist, have NO answer for such sound, established hermeneutics and exegesis! Even at the surface of the English translation, if one is intellectuall honest, could NOT but conclude other than what IS so plainly meant by Jesus’ words. This IS then brought out by careful exegesis of the Greek words, which were inspired by the Holy Spirit, which cannot be misunderstood, unless, one is so blinded, as the SDA church are.

    You see, the Seventh-day Adventist, from the very beginning, started OUT with their hermeneutics, terribly convoluted and twisted, the very pemise to begin with WAS erroneous; and the primary reason for this, IS, that they invariably USE Old Testemant text, which as God had indicated was, a little here, a little there, PARITAL revelation was ONLY given in the OT on many matters, that were NOT fully revealed UNTIL, in the FULNESS of time, Almighty God, sent forth His SON:

    “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, HATH in these LAST days SPOKEN unto us by HIS SON, whom He hath appointed heir of ALL THINGS, by whom also He made the worlds. Who being the brightness of HIS GLORY, and the EXPRESS image of His person, and UPHOLDING ALL THINGs by the WORD of His POWER, when He HAD by Himself purged our sins, sat DOWN on the right hand of the MAJESTY on high.” (Hebrews 1: 1-3) emphasis added

    NOTE: He, JESUS, sat down at the right hand of His Father, having PURGED our SIN, in the HOLY of HOLIES, not the utter foolishness of ANY ‘Investigative Judgment’ where Ellen White and SDA teach falsely that Jesus did NOT enter the Holy of Holies until 1844, NONSENSE, unbiblical heresy!

    Now, as Dr. Martin so correctly continues to righty divide His Word.

    “We see, further, that Seventh-day Adventist have NO warrant for the idea that DEATH is a state of unsciousness. The New Testament frequently indicated that the unregenerate man IS alreay “DEAD,” but not even Adventists would say that he was extinct or unscious! Some instances of this are: Matthew 8:22, “Let the DEAD bury their DEAD” : John 5:25, “The hour is coming and now is, when the DEAD shall HEAR the voice of the Son of God, and they that HEAR shall LIVE’ : and Ephesians 2:1, “You hath He quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and SINS.”

    “Admittedly in the New Testament, DEATH is compared with SLEEP, but this is recognized by Bible scholars generally as a grammatical *metaphor*. One does NOT develop a doctrine from a figure of speech, as conditional immortalists apparently have done, but upon sound principles of Biblical Hermeneutics, Contextual Anelysis, and Linguistic Exegesis. The application of these principles leads to the one conclusion which the Scripture unreservedly teaches, that ‘ETERNAL LIFE’ is vastly different from *Immortality*; although immortality WILL be bestowed upon the believer AT the resurrection, in this LIFE, he ALREADY possesses ‘ETERNAL LIFE,’ a spiritual quality of existence which will at length be UNITED with the physical quality of *incorruptibility* which the Bible speaks of as ‘immortality,’ and ‘we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is” ( I Cor 12; John 3:2). A study of these words in any Greek lexicon and of their use in the New Testament, will show that *immortality* and *eternal life* are neither identical NOR synonymous. For certain Adventist writers therefore to treat these terms as interchangeable IS clearly a linguistic impossibility.”

    3. 2 Timothy 1: 10: The Apostle Paul writes that God’s eternal purpose “is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished DEATH, and hath brought LIFE and IMMORTALITY to light through the gospel.” ‘In this verse “life” (zoen) and “immortality” (aphtharsian) are clearly distinguished. Life has beenn bestowed upon the believer at the MOMENT of REGENERATION by faith in Jesus Christ (1 John 5: 11, 12); IMMORTALITY is a future gift, to be bestowed upon the believer’s BODY at the second advent of our Lord, or as Paul expressed it, “This CORRUPTIBLE (body) must put on INCORRUPTION ( aphtharsian), and this MORTAL (body) must put on IMMORTALITY ( athanasian).”

    “Again in Romans 2:7, the Apostle clearly distinguishes between ‘ETERNAL LIFE” as a conscious quality of SPIRITUAL existence bestowed upon the believer as a GIFT; and “immortality,” which, in this connection in the New Testament refers to the RESURRECTION bodies of the saints or to the nature of God Himself. Thus, God’s Word clearly indicates the DIFFERENCE between “LIFE” as spiritual existence, and “IMMORTALITY”, incorruptibility in a body like that of our risen Lord.” (Ibid., pp.449, 450) emphasis added.

    This is just a brief look at the TRUTH of God’s Word, when properly exegeted, as done by Dr. Walter Martin, for which the Seventh-day Adventist HAVE NO answer! They stubbornly REFUSE to ‘unlearn’ their unscriptual hermeneutics, which has caused them to create so much FALSE concepts and erroneous doctrine, thank God, many SDA Pastors, theologians and lay people over the years, have HAD the courage and insight, to SEE the falsity of such doctrine, and have come out of the SDA church.

    There is much more to come, which I’ll share a bit latter on!


  20. Thanks again for your sound exegesis of the word.

    It is remarkable that men chose to devise doctines and dogma by totally disregarding and distorting the clear teaching of the scriptures.

    For example, what can be difficult to understand in the crystal cler directive of Colossians 2;16-23?

    2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

    2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

    2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

    2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

    2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

    2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

    2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

    2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.


  21. @ GP…

    It is remarkable that men chose to devise doctines and dogma by totally disregarding and distorting the clear teaching of the scriptures.

    Isn’t this the crux of the matter?
    Remarkable doesn’t even begin to describe it.
    This is what adds to (or causes) the confusion and makes it even harder for non believers.


  22. @Technician: “It is remarkable that men chose to devise doctines and dogma by totally disregarding and distorting the clear teaching of the scriptures.

    Don’t be too hard on Mr. Georgie Poorgie (probably not his real name) et al.

    It isn’t easy to question, let alone reject, what you’ve been told and taught by those you trust.

    To do so requires critical and independent thought, which is not generally taught in most households nor communities….


  23. Yes Techie

    The crux of the matter is indeed the fact that despite clear statements in the scriptures that several of the denominations have stressed GROSS MISINTERPRETATIONS of clear texts and made them thier DISTINCTIVE DENOMINATIONAL CREED or FOUNDATION.

    In the text I cited from Colossians 2;16-23, for example, the clear teaching is in verse 16 Let no man judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

    YOU CAN NOT GET A CLEARER STATEMENT THAN THAT

    Paul then points out that these things as written in the Law were shadows or types to point to Christ as is taught also in Galatians 3:24.

    He asserts in verse 17 that Christ is the body or real thing or the substance or the Antitype of the shadows pictured in OT scriptures.

    Note that throughout the NT, AFTER THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST BELIEVERS GATHERED ALWAYS ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK. whereas in the Gospels prior to the resurrection they gathered on the Sabbath.

    Verse 18 says we are not to worship or adore or glorify angels as some denominaions do.

    In verse 19 he points out that only Christ- the HEAD (which is the subject of the book of Colossians) is to be worshipped.

    2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

    There ought to be no confusion, if contempoirary church goers would follow CHRIST and the apostles doctrine (i.e the instruction Christ gave to these men to impart ) as enunciated in the NT, and if folk would search and study the Scriptures for themselves, and learn before seeking to teach.

    There ought to be no confusion or hardhip for unbelievers folk would follow the example of the saints at Berea who serached the scriptures for themselves to see if these things are so or not.

    Searching and studying the Scriptures for your self and following the example of the saints at Berea definitely requires critical and independent thought, rather than just embracing what youโ€™ve been told and taught by those you trust, without questioning.

    As I pointed out in the other thread the bovine excrement above is a raga raga raga example given by a biblical illiterate who has acomputer and internet acess, but no knowledge or understanding of spiritual things- which according to 1 Cor 2:14 are only spiritually discerned.


  24. When one meets a difficult text, or an apparently contradictory text or an obscure text, one consults a commentary, or a series of commentries or discuss it with a pastor or colleague.

    Some good commentaries will list all the known or popular interpretations and point out from the original language, and compaison with clearer scriptures on the topic (especially the first mention of the subject) what the best interpretation might be.

    This should clarify the issue in more than 99% of the cases in my experience.


  25. GP please explain Genesis 6 vs 1 to 2


  26. @Georgie Porgie (probably not his real name): “When one meets a difficult text, or an apparently contradictory text or an obscure text, one consults a commentary, or a series of commentries or discuss it with a pastor or colleague.

    Or, if you are a practitioner of the Scientific Method…

    You review the literature…

    If you still disagree, then you run your own reproducible experiments to try to disprove what has been claimed…

    If your results don’t agree with what can be explained by the accepted beliefs, you consult with some others who might be able to explain to you the mistake(s) you have made in your assumptions (if there are any).

    If, after all of this, you still think you might be right and the accepted thinking is wrong, you publish your results, with supporting evidence.

    And, after publishing, you stand up to peer-review. And either you are shown wrong, or you are shown to possibly have something new worth looking at.

    (This is how Nobel Prizes are won.)


  27. JC
    Genesis 6:1-2 reads
    6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

    VERSE 1 I think is clear enough! THERE WAS GROWTH IN THE POPULATION AND GIRL CHILDREN WERE BORN AS PART OF THIS POPULATIN EXPLOSION inter alia

    6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

    The Sons of God or the Godly line of Seth intermingled with the ungodly line of Cain.

    If you read chapter 4 you will find that the line of Cain is traced therein.

    If you read chapter 5 you will find that the line of Seth is traced therein.

    In chapter six there is intermarriage of these two family lines.

    Hope this helps


  28. The focus here has chiefly been on Seventh Day Adventism, but i believe this thing is a lot bigger than SDA’s interpretation of the gospels alone.

    Churches across the board have rejected the grace of Christ in order to once again pick up elements of the law. In the early church the problem was circumcision (Act 15).

    Those who have taken up the law in preference to grace have all rejected the grace of God and therefore are guilty of the entire law. And i think they don’t even realize it.

    Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
    Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
    Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
    Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    Today other doctrines which have been pulled from the Old Testament and can equally replace circumcision in the verses from Galatians 5, include that of tithing, eating of meats, and sabbath days.


  29. Seventh-Day Adventism.

    Soul Sleep!

    Now, back to this false concept as taught by Adventist!

    4. Philippians 1: 21-23: “for to me to LIVE is Christ,and to DIE (physically) IS GAIN. But if I LIVE in the flesh (body) this is the fruit of my labour; yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am is a strait betwixt two, have a desire to DEPART (to die physically) and to BE WITH CHRIST; which IS far better; nevertheless to abide (live) in the flesh (body) is more needful of you.” emphasis added.

    I have emphasized the words in the English translation, which are quite obvious, that Paul IS saying, to the Philippian Church, IT would be far better for him ‘…to DEPART…” that is, to die physically, because his Soul, Spirit, would then be with Christ, “…and to be WITH CHRIST; which IS far better…”

    Because Seventh-day Adventist don’t believe that the ‘soul’ of man continues on in conscious existence, until the day of resurrection, they then find all kinds of ways to DENY what this text from Paul is teaching.

    Hear the Adventist perversion of this text:

    “Of course it will be better to be with Christ, but why, it must be asked, should we conclude that the apostle expects immediately upon death to go at once into the presence of Christ? The Bible does not say so. It merely states his desire to depart and be with Christ.” (Questions on Doctrine. pp. 527, 528).

    It is amazing what deniers of Truth will do to twist the text of God’s Word.

    Dr. Walter Martin deals with this text from an exegetical perspective, which IS the only sound and proper way, to correctly interpret God’s Word.

    “Now, of all the text in the New Testament on the state of the believer after DEATH of his BODY, this one alone gives us Paul’s mind on the subject. Adventist support their argument with Old Testament passages, most of which, I maintain, are TAKEN OUT of CONTEXT, while ignoring metaphorical usages, implications or deductions. To treat literally such words as “sleep,” “death” and “destroy,” is I feel unwarranted. However, in the New Testament, when faced with a positive statement like this one by the Apostle Paul, it seems that they REFUSE to be literal and must insist upon metaphors, deductions and implications. They are unwilling to accept the Apostle’s statement at face value. The noted Adventist F. D. Nichol, in his book ‘Answers to Objections’ states that if Philippians 1: 21-23 were the only passage about the condition of man in death, he would be forced to acknowledge the accepted Orthodox position. Nichol them attempts to strengthen his argument by taking texts OUT OF CONTEXT to “prove” that Paul does not mean what he most decidedly says. With this thought in mind, let us examine the CONTEXT and grammar of the Apostle’s statement for IT answers the Seventh-day Adventist contention:”

    “In verse 21 Paul states that to continue to LIVE is Christ and to die “is GAIN.” Since Paul was ordained to preach the Word of God to the Gentiles while enjoying fellowship with the living Christ, what would he GAIN by DEATH or unconsciousness? According to the Adventist idea fellowship with Christ would END, and Paul would merely go to SLEEP until the resurrection. This argument violates both CONTEXT and GRAMMAR.”

    “Verse 23 is grammatically uncomplicated. It is a series of coordinate statements tied together by the conjunctions ‘kai’ and ‘de.’ The phrase ‘to DEPART and be WITH CHRIST, which IS better” (eis to analusai kai sun christo einai) is grammatically DEVASTATING to the Seventh-day Adventist position. The preposition ‘eis’ plus the definite article ‘to’ shows “true purpose or end in view” – the strong desire which causes Paul’s dilemma. Both infinitives (analusai and eimai) have one construction – they are used with one definite article – so are ‘one’ thought, ‘one’ grammatical expression: literally, “my desire is to the ‘TO DEPART to be WITH CHRIST.” In simple English, Paul’s one desire has a twofold object: DEPARTURE and being WITH CHRIST! If departure did not mean his immediately being with Christ, another construction would have been employed. It therefore seems impossible that soul sleep was in the mind of the Apostle since he desired to DEPART from his BODY and to spiritually enjoy the presence of His Lord. The Second Advent could not have been in view in this passage for the CONTEXT indicates that Paul expected death – and the instantaneous REUNION with Christ – THEN – NOT at the resurrection. There would have been no need to staying to instruct the Philippians (vs. 24) if he were speaking of the Second Advent, for they would ALL be glorified together and no longer in need of His presence to strengthen them. Most translators and recognized Greek authorities contend that Philippians 1: 21-23 teaches the historic position of the Christian Church, i.e., the CONSCIOUS presence of the believer with Christ at the death of the body.”

    “As quoted above, the Adventists, in common with all conditionalists, say, but ‘Why…should we conclude from this remark that the Apostle expects, immediately upon death, to go at once into the presence of Christ? The Bible does not say so. It merely states his desire to depart and to be with Christ.’ We answer that the CONTEXT of the chapter, the grammatical construction of the verse, and EVERY grammar book on New Testament Greek usage teaches that FROM the construction utilized, the Apostle expected to go AT ONCE into the presence of his Lord. Nevertheless, the Adventists insist, ‘The Bible does not say so. It merely states his desire to depart and to be with Christ.’ This statement is not accurate, it IS NOT exegetically sound, and it WILL NOT stand the test of contextual criticism. It is only an attempt…to justify a doctrine that IS NOT supported by the Word of God. In the face of these facts, Seventh-day Adventists disregard the preponderance of historical scholarship in favor of the (unscriptural) doctrine of ‘soul sleep.”

    A lot more, still to come…later on!


  30. Annonymous I agree with your position. Sound exegesis again Zoe. Most enlightening and entertaining


  31. CH
    I see that you are a practitioner of the Scientific Methodโ€ฆโ€ฆโ€ฆโ€ฆโ€ฆโ€ฆโ€ฆ
    And that you know exactly how to review the literatureโ€ฆโ€ฆโ€ฆโ€ฆโ€ฆโ€ฆ
    And how to run your own reproducible experiments to try to disprove what has been claimedโ€ฆ

    And how to consult with others who might be able to explain your mistake(s)

    But yet you have won no Nobel Prizes. Right?

    Could you tell us what you have published with supporting evidence.

    Why is it you know so much, but that you and your side kick were not able to have any influence on the Fair Trading Commission and that Electricity bills going up soon?

    Is it because the smart fellows in authority saw that you are as stupid as you give much evidence to be like in this forum?

    It seems that neither you and your side kick were able to stand up to peer-review and that they showed you and your stupid way of thinking to be wrong and that you had new worth looking at.


  32. Just to add a bit more to the exegesis given in my last post, re Philippians 1: 21-23:

    “For me to LIVE is Christ, and to DIE is GAIN…having a desire to DEPART, and to be WITH CHRIST; which IS far better…”

    Distinguished Greek scholar A.T. Robertson, offers this exegesis on verse 21.

    “For to me (emoi gar). Fine example of the ethical dative. Paul gives his own view of living. ‘To live is Christ’ (to zein Christos). No copula (estin), but to ‘zein’ (the act of living, present active infinitive) is the subject as is shown by the article ‘to.’ Living is coextensive with Christ. ‘Gain’ (kerdos). Old word for any GAIN or PROFIT, interest money (so in papyri). In the N.T. only here, Phil. 3:7; Titus 1:11. ‘To DIE (to apothanein, second aorist active infinitive, single act) is to CASH IN both principle and interest, and so to HAVE MORE of CHRIST, than when living. So Paul faces death with independence and calm courage.” (Word Pictures in The New Testament, Vol IV, p. 440) emphasis added.

    The ‘priniciple’ new LIFE in Christ, here on earth in our physical bodies, so that Paul KNOWS for sure, that ‘…to DEPART, and to BE with Christ; which IS far better…” Is to cash IN the policy, so-to-speak, ‘…and to DIE is GAIN…” All of the INTEREST that waites him and us, when we go INSTANTLY into the presense of our LORD!

    NO SOUL SLEEP….!!!

    Kenneth S. Wuest, in his ‘Wuest’s Word Studies, From the Greek New Testament’ , offers these words, that are so uplifting on this same verse in Philippians 1:21.

    “Paul is determined that Christ shall be radiated through his life, and so he says, “For to me to LIVE is Christ.” His words in Colossians 3:4, “Christ our LIFE.” help us to understand this statement. Christ IS Paul’s LIFE in that He is that ETERNAL LIFE which Paul received at salvation ( present continuous tense) a LIFE which is ethical in its content, and which operates in Paul as a motivation, energizing, pulsating principle of existence, that TRANSFORMS Paul’s life, a divine person living His life in and through the Apostle. All of Paul’s activities, all of his interest, the entire round of his existence, IS ensphered WITHIN that circumference which IS CHRIST. The words “to DIE” not the act of dying, BUT the consequences of DYING, the state after death. Death itself, would not be a gain to Paul, BUT, to be in the PRESENCE of his Lord in glory, that would BE GAIN. Translation: For, so far as I am concerned, to be living, both as to my very existence and my experience, that IS CHRIST, and to have died, IS GAIN.” (Wuest’s Word Studies, From the Greek New Testament, Vol II, pp.44,45) emphasis added.

    PS. This and other sources are from my personal library, NOT from any internet or Wiki source!


  33. Zoe

    All true scholars know that real scholas have good books, and know what the good books in their area of expertise are.

    You have demonstrated in your posts how a Bible scholar goes about seeking to master a particular text or pasage.
    Thanks


  34. Here is Matthew Henry’s commentary on Philippians 1: 21-23;

    “We have here an account of the LIFE and DEATH of blessed Paul: his life was CHRIST, and his DEATH was GAIN. It is the undoubted character of every good Christian that to him to live is CHRIST. All those to whom to LIVE is Christ, to them to die WILL BE GAIN. Death is a great loss to a carnal worldly man; BUT to a good Christian IT IS GAIN. It delivers him from ALL the evils of life, and brings him to the possessions of the chief good. ‘Yet what shall I choose I wot not: for I am in a strait between two.” It was a blessed stait which Paul was in, NOT between two evil things; but between two GOOD THINGS. Paul was in a strait between two BLESSINGS – living to Christ, and being WITH HIM.”

    “His inclination was for death. We have naturally an aversion to death, BUT Paul had an inclination to it. “Having a desire to DEPART, and to be with Christ” (v.23) It is being WITH CHRIST which makes a departure desirable to a good man. If I cannot be with Christ without departing, I shall reckon it desirable on that account to depart. “Which is FAR BETTER.” Those who know the value of Christ and heaven will readily acknowledge it FAR BETTER to be in heaven than to be in this world, to be WITH CHRIST. It we come to be with Christ, farewell sin and temptation, farewell sorrow and death FOR EVER.” ( Matthew Henry’s Commentary, On the whole Bible in One Volume, p. 1862) emphasis added.


  35. GP, Thanks my Brother in Christ Jesus, for we KNOW for us, to LIVE is Christ, and to DIE is GAIN, and to be with HIM, which is FAR BETTER! Amen, Amen, Amen!!!


  36. There are some hypocrites around here
    How seem to want the lions share

    Evil Tongues


  37. sorry s/b
    WHO* seem to want the lions share

    Roast Fish and Cornbread
    Soul Fire
    Throw Some Water In


  38. Like any other Christian in my youth, I heard that god is all powerful and not only that, but that he had a specific plan laid out for me and everyone else. I heard that he knew what I was thinking, what I did in my free time, that basically my every move was under watch. All at the same time I would hear about the evils in the world and how the devil would try to manipulate me. All of these arguments are not only irrational, but actually not well thought out either. Upon examination, not only is there not a god, but if there was and it was omnipotent and omniscient, it would not be worth worshipping.

    The argument that God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent is a hypocrisy in itself, especially when speaking about Christianity. One of the main tenants of Christianity is the battle of good versus evil, with the devil or Lucifer being the evil. All throughout history it has been claimed that the devil has been responsible for major atrocities. This of course flies in the face of god being omnipotent because not only can the devil manipulate godโ€™s creation, but god either canโ€™t prevent that action, or doesnโ€™t, which is far more evil than the act itself. You also have to take into consideration what someone with ultimate power is not only capable of, but you would and should expect from them. What I would expect is a perfect world, creation, people, universe, etc. Instead you see what we would more expect from random chance, which is a completely chaotic universe, full of uninhabitable planets and a world full of imperfect people. Now I have heard Christians say that the reason the world and people are imperfect is because of Adam and Eve and because they ate the fruit of the tree. This line of reasoning probably is the worst explanation that could be used. First, Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil, they were literally like Children, not having any shame and never having ever encountered what a lie is. Second, the garden had a talking snake within it, supposedly the devil, who convinced two really stupid people to eat an apple that would give them knowledge. Now if god really was omniscient, he would have foreseen all of these events and either given Adam and Eve the knowledge to know right from wrong, or simply stopped the devil from entering the garden. If god did know all of this was going to happen, yet let it happen with the full intention of punishing his own creations of his own design and plan, then this is far more evil than any act ever committed in history. According to Christians, this one event led to the downfall of man and the imperfect creation we have today with diseases, famine, war, suffering, disabilities, etc, all because God either failed to act, or it was in his plan not to act. Either way, the burden does not lie on man for exhibiting free will, especially when that free will was exercised without knowledge. It is basically the equivalent of punishing a 2 year old child for disobedience, but instead of a timeout, you curse his and his ancestorsโ€™ existence forever. The punishment does not fit the crime.

    Most Christians will quickly explain that god will only answer the prayer if it is within his plan. However, if it was in the plan to begin with, then the prayer was not answered because god is still just doing what he wants to do since itโ€™s his plan. This could mean a few different things. Either prayer is completely useless, the bible is flat out wrong when it comes to prayer, god is not all powerful and canโ€™t answer all prayers, or god simply ignores prayers. Either way, it does not paint a pretty picture of an omnipotent or omniscient god. One particular group points out this fact as they have a website called whydoesgodhateamputees.com. It is a site dedicated to the fact that there are so many people with disabilities either from birth or accidents who have lost limbs that pray and god has never healed even a single one. Again I refer back to the bible verse that states that if you ask you shall receive. Yet god has either ignored every single one of these prayers, or is not able to heal any one of them. So either god is evil himself, a hypocrite according to what the bible says, or simply is not all-powerful.

    In any form or fashion, no matter how you look at this case, if you are a logical and reasonable person, you have to agree that there is no explanation for this world being the way that it is, unless it is either completely natural with no god in it, or if there is a god, then he/she/it is the one to blame and is probably more evil than good. If there is a god, I absolutely do not respect it, as this is a horrible creation full of a lot of unnecessary suffering and if the bible story is correct, and all of humanity descended from two people, and billions have been punished because of two people, and it was god fault in the first place for not making them smarter or preventing the action, then god simply is a cruel being who does not care about his creations, is evil in nature and is neither a being worthy of praise or worship, but should be a being of despise.

    Letโ€™s say that you were to create a far-flung news network, and you somehow had the capacity to observe all of the inexplicable tragedy that occurs on Earth each day:
    โ€ข all of the murders,
    โ€ข all of the car wrecks
    โ€ข all of the rapes
    โ€ข all of the mutilations
    โ€ข all of the torture
    โ€ข all the miscarriages and stillbirths
    โ€ข all of the disease
    โ€ข all of the starvation
    โ€ข all of the destruction
    โ€ข all of the terrorism
    Letโ€™s say you had a news feed that delivered this all to you in real time.
    Just ten minutes with this news feed would be unbearable. Thousands of tragic, heart wrenching events would impinge themselves upon you every minute. It would make you vomit over and over and over again until you passed out in exhaustion and despair.
    In other words, the amount of gut-wrenching, anguished tragedy in our world is unspeakable.
    Meanwhile, there is a housewife in Pasadena who firmly believes that God answered her prayer this morning to remove the mustard stain from her favorite blouse. She prayed to God to help with the stain, and after she washed it the stain was gone. Praise Jesus! There are billions of people in the World who firmly believe that a God is personally helping them each day with their trivial prayers like this. They believe that they have a personal relationship with God, that God hears their prayers each day, and that God has time to reach down and remove the mustard molecules one by one. They believe it with all of their hearts.
    It makes you wonder: If God has the time and the will to answer these trivial prayers, then why does he have no time for the millions of other massively serious problems that arise on earth every day?
    Simply look at the world we live in. All around us we have murderers, rapists, robbers, child molesters, terrorists, etcโ€ฆ How do they do their deeds? If God is all-knowing and God answers prayers, then we have to believe that:
    โ€ข God watches them as they murder, rape, molest and terrorize other people millions of times a day, but he does nothing to stop them.
    โ€ข God watches the victims as they are being murdered, raped, molested and terrorized, but he does nothing to help them.
    โ€ข God completely ignores the prayers of the planet to eliminate murder, rape, child molestation and terrorism and allows these atrocities to continue unabated.
    According to the Standard Model of God, God is an omniscient, all-powerful, all-loving being who answers prayers. Imagine God sitting on his magnificent throne in heaven looking down upon Earth, seeing every detail.

    IMO, the only Gods we have is Love & Hate.


  39. Seventh-day Adventism.

    “Soul and “spirit”

    Dr. Walter Martin, ‘The Kingdom of The Cults.’

    “For a fuller treatment of Adventist teaching on ‘soul sleep’ we must discuss briefly the Bible use of “soul” and “spirit.” In the Old Testament, the words “soul” and “spirit” are the Hebrew ‘nephesh’ and ‘ruach.’ In the New Testament they are the Greek ‘psuche’ and ‘pneuma.’ Although in the Old Testament ‘nephesh’ and ‘ruach’ frequently refer only to the principle of life in both men and animals, in many other places they mean the intellectual and spiritual nature of man. Such verses as Isaiah 57: 16, Zechariah 12:1, Isaiah 55: 3 and Genesis 35:18, belie the Adventist’ criterion for determining the spiritual nature of man. On page 522 of ‘Questions on Doctrine’ the Adventists list eight Scripture passages about DEATH to show that at DEATH of the body, the intellect, will, and spirit of man (nephesh and ruach) lapse into UNCONSCIOUSNESS pending the resurrection. However, seven of these are from the Old Testament and each refer to the BODY. Adventists lean strongly on the book of Ecclesiastes,especially 9:5, 6 to substantiate their doctrine. But Ecclesiastes 12: 7 tells us that upon death of the body, “the spirit [ruach] shall return unto God.” Unlike the mere principle of life in animals, man possesses a cognizant, immaterial nature created in God’s image.”

    “It is a basic principle, which Adventists share, that the Old Testament MUST be interpreted by the New Testament, and not the reverse. However, were conditional immortality is involved, Adventists do NOT follow this principle. The New Testament teaches that the immaterial nature of man (soul and spirit) is separate from the body (Matthew 10: 28; Luke 8:55; I Thess 5: 23; Hebrews 4:12; Revelation 16:3), that it IS independent of man’s material form and DEPARTS from that form at DEATH to go either into the presence of the Lord (Philippians 1:23) or into a place of punishment (Luke 16). In Acts 7:59, Stephen committed his spirit (pneuma) into the hands of the Lord Jesus Christ. This establishes the fact that the immaterial nature of man IS independent of his BODY. At the same time, the Scripture tells us, “He [Stephen] fell asleep” in death; that IS, his physical BODY took on the appearance of “sleep.” But he as a unit did NOT die; he merely experienced separation of the soul from the body and he went to be with the Lord, into whose hands he committed his spiritual nature.”

    “In Luke 23: 46 the Lord Jesus Christ said, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.” This verse would be meaningless if it applied only to the ‘breath of Jesus.’ The classic example of the penitent thief, who in his last moments believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, is proof that eternal life IS a quality including conscious existence. It does not terminate with the DEATH of the physical but CONTINUES in never-ending personal fellowship with our Lord. “Today shalt thou be with Me in paradise,” is the guarantee of the Son of God that those who trust Him will NEVER be separated from His presence and fellowship. Seventh-day Adventists, in company with other Conditionalists, attempt to explain this by reading the text, “Verily, verily, I say to thee today, thou shalt be with Me in paradise.” The reason is that Christ’s statement calls in serious question their doctrine of soul sleep. Moreover, Adventists seem to overlook the important fact that whenever Jesus used the words, “Verily, verily, I say unto you,” He never qualified them because qualification was unnecessary. It would have been redundant for Jesus to say, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, that is, ‘today’ I am saying unto you…” By this type of interpertation, the Adventists violate the plain sense of one of Christ’s favorite expressions of emphasis.”

    “In Matthew 17: 3, we see Moses and Elijah with Christ on the Mount of transfiguration. We know that Moses died (Deuternomy 34: 5), and Elijah was translated (2 Kings 2:110. However, it WAS Moses who was communing with our Lord. Since the Scripture nowhere states that Moses had been raised from the dead for this occasion. (Adventists attempt to teach this from the book of Jude, where such an assertion is NOT made), it is evident that the ‘soul’ of Moses appeared to our Lord. Thus conscious existence IS a necessary predicate of the intermediate state.”

    “It is the strong conviction of mine, based upon Scripture, that the doctrine of ‘soul sleep’ CANNOT stand in the light of God’s revelation. Perhaps the reader will think that there has been too much space given to the meanings of words and the grammar of the Greek New Testament. However, this IS most essential because the crux of Adventist argument, it seems to me, is a DENIAL of the meaning of terms in their context. For example, they say:”

    ‘There is nothing in the word ‘psuche’ [soul] itself that even remotely implies a conscious entity that is able to survive the death of the body. And there is nothing in the Bible use of the word indicating that the Bible writers held any such belief…There is nothing inherent in the word ‘pneuma’ [spirit] by which it may be taken to mean some supposed conscious entity of man capable of existing apart from the body, nor does the usage of the word with respect to man in the New Testament in any way imply such a concept…A careful study of all the adjectives used in Scripture to qualify the word “spirit” as applied to man, indicates that not one even remotely approaches the idea of immortality a one of the qualities of the human “spirit.” (Questions on Doctrine, pp. 514, 517, 518).

    “In Matthew 10: 28, Jesus Christ apparently believed and taught that that the ‘soul’ WAS more than “body and breath” as Seventh-day Adventism teaches, for He said, “Fear not them which KILL the body, but are NOT able to KILL the soul!”

    “Seventh-day Adventist writers charge that orthodox theologians have been overly dogmatic about the nature of man, while Adventists have maintained a guarded reserve. But Adventists have been equally dogmatic in denouncing the orthodox position. To be dogmatic one sholud have a SOUND scholarly basis for his dogmatism, and such a basis EXEGETICALLY speaking IS CONSPICUOUSLY ABSENT from the historic position of conditional immortalists. As mentioned above, Adventists generally CONFUSE “immortality’ with “eternal life.” We quite agree that ‘a careful study of all the adjectives used in Scripture to qualify the word “spirit” as applied to man, indicates that not one even remotely approaches the idea of immortality,” as our Adventist brethren have stated. BUT, as we have shown, ‘IMMORTALITY’ refers ONLY to the resurrection BODY of the saints and to the nature of God Himself. therefore, since the saints are to be CLOTHED with their resurrection BODIES at the Second Advent, they DO NOT now possess “immortality.” For Adventists to CONFUSE “immortality” with “eternal life” and then to argue that “immortality” means “eternal life” and IS never applied to the spirit, is logical and theological ERROR.” (Kingdom of The Cults, pp. 453-456) emphasis added.

    Pseudo scholarship, CAN NEVER stand up to genuine scholarship!!


  40. We await the replies of the Scholars to Bajan Atheist.

    Come in Georgie Porgie and Zoe.

    My lesser educated reason for believing in Christianity is that I went to church as a child and learned enough to accept there is God.

    Prehaps it is my ego but I believe there is God and all I have to go by is “Faith” and “belief” in something I cannot prove” and I don’t need another human being like myself to tell me what I should or should not believe.

    I am an adult and responsible for myself.

    Bajan Atheist your comment was very “articulate” but I still believe in God.

    Each to his own.

    I hope our Educated scholars will counter attack Bajan Atheist for the benefit of us lesser mortals.


  41. @Bajan Atheist

    Good post. Certainly the issues and questions you raise are reasonable and well articulated.


  42. @Hants

    You sound real desperate. Why the need to “counter attack”? Why can’t we have a meaningful discussion without the petty turf protection?


  43. This one Zoe pouring out his heart over seventh day adventists. Wonder if he realise that he petticoat showing?


  44. @Zoe

    Attacking other religions serves to feed the cynical among us.

    Use your scholarship to enlighten us about the creator.


  45. @ Bajan Atheist

    I think the things you mentioned can be summed up as a result of *free will*. It is this free will which allowed sin into the world.

    God decided he would give us all *free will*, and now our sins have cause the atrocities you speak about. If God was to step in each time some wrong was about to occur then free will would no longer be such, and God would be found to be a liar.

    If this God didn’t allow free choices then you wouldn’t be able to speak your mind against him.

    I will say to you plainly that there is a God, but he is not going to get into the affairs of men unless he is asked to.

    Sometimes even Christians wonder where God is in certain matters, but God tends to be able to see the bigger picture to determine what is the better option for us. Even Jesus when he was dying on the cross asked his father why he had forsaken him.

    You mentioned Adam and Eve who existed in the perfect world, but succumbed to sin therefore bringing about destruction in this imperfect world. You are right that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil, but what you haven’t mentioned is that God warned them that if they eat the fruit they will die. If a parent warn you not to do something, and you do it anyway, would you consider that parent to be evil as you say?

    Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

    Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Sometimes one just needs to seek God. what i would encourage you to do is to read the bible for yourself. Before i got baptized i was totally confused because and i was wondering how can one God have so many mindsets but i decided to read the bible for myself, and i found the answers i wanted he has only one mindset, but man has cause the alternative views.

    I will say to you before you give up on God to read the bible for yourself all the answers you need are in the bible, and you will then understand why God does what he does.

The blogmaster invites you to join the discussion.

Trending

Discover more from Barbados Underground

Subscribe now to keep reading and get access to the full archive.

Continue reading