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Submitted by Terence Blackett

One of the greatest historical deceptions of all times is the refusal of mainstream Christianity as well as secular society to accept and advocate the original Black pre-eminence and presence in the Bible. This historical seismic rift created a fabrication of diabolical proportions which has ebbed and flowed for the last 4000 years right up to our present time.

Jesusโ€™ First Advent came at a critical time when the final 2000 year epoch of human history was to begin the process of bringing home the lost sons and daughters of Israel back into a harmonious relationship with their God (Yah) – that they had long forgotten and had rebelled against for centuries. This process would eventually culminate with the sealing of 144,000 โ€“ 12,000 from each of the 12 Tribes who will not see death, but will be translated at the end of human history โ€“ when Jesus will appear the second time in the eastern sky with over a trillion angels enshrouded with majesty that no eye has ever beheld.

Meantime, the house of God remains in a pile of rubble. The walls broken down. No agreement to be found. The sanctuary defiled. The priests and prophets lie โ€“ preaching and teaching to their own means and the followers seem to like it so. While the vast throng of Godโ€™s people are living in deception, apathy and disbelief because godliness and righteousness is enshrouded (wrapped up) in fickle, baseless religiosity with no real knowledge of God in the land.

In the Christian world, 11 oโ€™clock on Sunday morning is still the most segregated time of the week. The division within the church world is split down the middle between the Black church and the White church. The sad reality is that the division is not based on issues that are fundamentally theological in nature but rather on a lack of acceptance of the historical connotations and the legacy of a supremacist exegetical form of Christianity that was unleashed on Blacks in an attempt to scientifically control and manipulate a nation of people into a position of subservience and socioeconomic control. This divide, conquer and rule principle has even dulled the appetites of many who merely see Christianity as a tool the White man has used as a sabre of oppression to subjugate and force control of the minds of Black folks โ€“ a successful form of intrigue which still bears damnable fruit today.

This vicious lie took on dimensions long before the evolution of Christian religious modernity. The modern Ashkenazim Jew โ€“ PALESKIN converts (as far as 1100 years ago) a people (from the cold tundra-lands of Western/Eastern Europe) worked feverishly to assimilate and control all the nations of world (as far back as the Crusades) and to finally say they were whole again (with the formation of the state of Israel in 1948) โ€“ but that has been a colossal deception of gargantuan proportions swallowed by well-meaning Christians (both Black and White alike) and held up as a totem pole to be revered and worshipped like Mosesโ€™ serpent which was held up in the wilderness. Yet the 10 Tribes of millions of true Jewish/Israelite peoples are still very much scattered at large in every nook and cranny of earth (people particularly of Black ethnic origins) covering the landscape of earth โ€“ many still living under the weight of servitude and oppression.

Jesus had warned that upon โ€œthis Rockโ€ He would build His Church (many still believe it is the Catholic Church) โ€“ who through Satanโ€™s insidious work for thousands of years has built a counterfeit, corrupt, subversive monolith which tries to resemble the real thing and would fool the world into accepting the phony for the authentic. Moses was warned in Exodus 20: 25 that โ€œif thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.โ€ Every since then man has sought to carve out their own altar of stone in the hope that it would be acceptable to God โ€“ not realising that God wonโ€™t accept anything other than the genuine or what He has asked for.

Samuel L. Williams, former pastor of the 650-member Friendship Baptist Church and former chairman of Atlanta’s Human Relations Committee who was also academic dean at Morehouse College in Atlanta said – “White America would rather see this nation destroyed than give up white racism. The worst institution in America today is the white church. It has more hypocrisy per square inch than any other. And no impression I have received in the past five years has made any difference.”

C. Eric Lincoln defines in his book โ€œThe Black Church in the African American Experienceโ€ (Durham Duke University Press, 1990) – how โ€œthe Black Churchโ€ in America is seen as the independent, historic, and completely black-controlled denominations founded during slavery. Although there have been African-American believers in denominations governed by white Americans – the Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist, and Lutheran churches, for instance – Lincolnโ€™s definition includes 7 major historic Black denominations: the African Methodist Episcopal (A.M.E.) Church; the African Methodist Episcopal Zion (A.M.E.Z.) Church; the Christian Methodist Episcopal (C.M.E.) Church; the National Baptist Convention, U.S.A., Incorporated (N.B.C.); the National Baptist Convention of America, Unincorporated (N.B.C.A.); the Progressive National Baptist Convention (P.N.B.C.); and the Church of God in Christ (C.O.G.I.C.).

I however believe that as was aforementioned in my opening remarks on this issue that writers, theologians and academics are still blind-sided as to the part that ethnicity played in the Holy Scriptures from its inception โ€“ given that “Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married, for he had married an Ethiopian woman.” God then struck Miriam with leprosy. Why? Consider this possibility. In Godโ€™s anger at Miriam, (Mosesโ€™ sister), God says in effect, “how would you like to be pale-skinned Miriam? Then, Iโ€™ll make you pale-skinned.” So we read, “When the cloud removed from over the tent, behold, Miriam was leprous, like snow” (Num. 12:10). The question we must all ask โ€“ โ€œHow does God view color?โ€ Also, in determining any religious orthodoxy, what part does race, gender or social creed play in its makeup?

Racism in any form is still a difficult โ€œrealityโ€ to define far less comprehend given the fact that we are all potentially โ€“ โ€˜human beingsโ€™. In the book of the Acts of the Apostles, God convicted Peter of his religious racism in a vision and told him to accept the Gentiles as brothers in Christ. โ€œPeter opened his mouth and said: โ€œTruly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.โ€ (Acts.10: 34-35). Paul also wrote that โ€œThere is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.โ€ (Galatians 3:28). God made us and He made the color of our skins, and He saw that His work was good.

Even outside of mainstream Christianity, denominations like the Mormon church have long held that a visible code of religious bias and bigotry towards people of color even though the Bible reveals that Abraham married an Egyptian; Joseph, the son of Jacob (later called Israel) married an Egyptian woman Asenath and bore Ephraim and Manasseh; Moses married โ€œan Ethiopian womanโ€; and most importantly Judah married a Canaanite (BLACK) woman that Jesus Himself is a direct descendant of. So for me what beggars belief is – how can Mormons say that Hamites couldnโ€™t have the priesthood when the Israelites themselves were at least (for the sake of anthropological argument sake) ONE-THIRD Hamitic?

In the closing phases of a post-Apartheid South Africa, it was interesting to see the Dutch Reformed Church offer a public apology for the devilish curse of religious racism towards the oppressed majority โ€“ words that still echo some 20 years later but where little has really been done to heal an age-old rift between two altars of stones where the sacrifices of religious ceremony is still being offered to appease a God who wants nothing more than for all men to come into the unity of the faith.

I close with those famous words offered to the peoples of South Africa but words echoed down through the hallowed hallways of 400 years of separation, segregation and ethnic sanction of a race of people who continue to still be maligned because of the color of their skin: – ”We confess with humility and sorrow the participation of our church in the introduction and legitimation of the ideology of apartheid and the subsequent suffering of people..”

In conclusion, let me also echo the words of Jesus as they came forth from the mouth of Abraham Lincoln on June 16, 1858, where more than 1,000 Republican delegates met in the Springfield, Illinois, statehouse for the Republican State Convention.

At 5 p.m. they chose Abraham Lincoln as their candidate for the U.S. Senate, running against Democrat Stephen A. Douglas. At 8 p.m. Lincoln delivered his address to his Republican colleagues in the Hall of Representatives. The title of his speech came from a sentence in the speech’s introduction, “A House Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand,” which paraphrases a statement by Jesus in Matthew 12:25.

Lincoln’s friends believed the speech was too radical for the occasion. His law partner, William H. Herndon, thought that Lincoln was morally courageous but politically incorrect and possibly suicidal. Herndon said Lincoln told him he was looking for a universally known figure of speech that would rouse people to the peril of the times.

The speech began:

โ€œMr. President and Gentlemen of the Convention.

If we could first know where we are, and whither we are tending, we could then better judge what to do, and how to do it. We are now far into the fifth year, since a policy was initiated, with the avowed object, and confident promise, of putting an end to slavery agitation. Under the operation of that policy, that agitation has not only, not ceased, but has constantly augmented. In my opinion, it will not cease, until a crisis shall have been reached, and passed. โ€˜A house divided against itself cannot stand.โ€™ I believe this government cannot endure; permanently half slave and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved – I do not expect the house to fall – but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other. Either the opponents of slavery, will arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of ultimate extinction; or its advocates will push it forward, till it shall become alike lawful in all the States, old as well as new – North as well as South. Have we no tendency to the latter condition?

The question the modern Church must now ask โ€“ can we ill-afford another hundred years of the same old divisions or isnโ€™t time to heal the rift and have one altar upon which we offer our sacrifices?


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365 responses to “Two Altars Of Stone:- The Black Church Versus The White Church – A House Divided Against Itself”


  1. If you are looking for god
    you need to stop blogging on the underground
    because he is not here
    (he is all around you!)


  2. @David, “Attacking other religions serves to feed the cynical amomg us.”

    I am not attacking other *religions* Seventh-day Adventism, IS a cultic denomination, that HAS attacked all other Christian, Protestant denominations, claiming to BE the True End -Time remnant church, all the while, twisting and convoluting a number of historic orthodox doctrine, that need to be addressed, in light of Adventism’s world wide agenda.

    This I have been doing in a sound, systematic manner!

    “Use your scholarship to enlighten us about the creator.”

    David, after all that has been posted over the last year on BU, by Dictionary, GP and yours truly, concerning such matters, i.e., the Creator, Evolution vs Creation, etc, etc, and you still need to be enlightened about our Creator???


  3. Let me see if this dumb dog can understand this…..

    JWs are WRONG!
    Catholics are WRONG!
    Anglicans are WRONG!
    SDAs are WRONG!
    Mormons are WRONG!
    Bretheren are WRONG!
    Muslims are WRONG!
    Judaism is WRONG!
    Everything AND EVERYONE except Zoe’s denomination is WRONG!

    All these denominations BELIEVE they are right and have correctly divided the word.
    There are incorrect interpretations, incorrect translations and obvious biases and agendas.
    Confusion reigns supreme.


  4. @Zoe

    “David, after all that has been posted over the last year on BU, by Dictionary, GP and yours truly, concerning such matters, i.e., the Creator, Evolution vs Creation, etc, etc, and you still need to be enlightened about our Creator???”

    Other too. What a bad job you have been doing; now this henchman job on the Seventh Day Adventists. Have to wonder about your god. A house divided.


  5. @Technician

    Good analysis.


  6. @David

    “Attacking other religions serves to feed the cynical among us.”

    You would really and truly think they are two religions.


  7. Psuedo scholarship vs. Genuine scholarship…what’s the difference when it comes to this big LIE known as christianity.

    Sure Zoe can use his scholarshit to point someone to his Creator!

    Look at how he’s trying to take the moat out of his brother’s eye, while the BEAM in his is blinding him with hatred.

    Where did you get your christ and your christianity Sir?


  8. @Anonymous

    Free will is a fascinating question. Firstly, this is far more of an issue for religious people than it is to atheists. Christianity solves its problem of evil by saying that God has decided, despite his benevolence, to let humans suffer and hang themselves if they so choose- by giving them free will. Some (like 7th day adventists) even think that there is an ongoing wager with Satan (like in the book of Job) where God, for some inexplicable reason, is allowing evil to flourish in the world by way of the free will of humans, as an object lesson in our lack of morals and lack of ability to govern ourselves, only to come back at judgement day to resume running the show again in earnest.

    One can see that it is the paradox of a benevolent god overseeing a suffering world that, for religious people, necessitates a special theory of free will.

    For rational people, however, free will is also a problem, in a different way. That is, if we are truly mechanistic beings, down to our cognitive and neural processes, then aren’t all our thoughts determined in advance? Are we actually making decisions, or do decisions happen to us in a pre-determined way? Is the conscious sensation of making choices a true representation of some de-novo event in the universe?

    The answer is no- all mechanistic phenomena have reasons and causes, and the brain is not immune from this logic. This is spelled out in a nice book by Daniel Wegner “The illusion of conscious will”. The neurobiology is not crystal clear yet, but it is clear that our sensation of conscious choice follows by a substantial lag the actual mechanism of choice made elsewhere in our brains. Thus our brains make choices, based on experience, on reason, on happenstance… whatever, and then our consciousness is informed of the result, at which point an idea “pops” into our heads.

    What this means is that we have free will, insofar as we are not aware of the subconscious processes that lead to all our decisions, or conversely can cite and use reasons for some decisions (however inaccurately rationalized in retrospect). We also have free will in that we take moral responsibility for our actions, even when they are desperately at odds to our more considered desires (addictions like smoking, gambling, eating). But in the end, we do not have free will in the atomic sense that there is an inner homunculus that purely reasons its way to action and represents our instant consciousness of that decision-making.

    ‘What is the role of the illusion of free will?’

    It has no role whatsoever.

    If you were in a courtroom on trial for a crime and you said to the judge ‘My braincells made me do it’ – You’d be stating the obvious, it wouldn’t help your case.

    Free Will:-
    a) don’t have
    b) have

    if ‘a’ then ‘no problem, no choice, no discussion, no influence – fully-stringed’
    else if ‘b’ then live life with choices
    else error(syntax, meaning or logic)

    But we can’t have free will if there are only ‘laws’ of how matter and energy inter-relate. The only possible source of free will is of something not bound by those ‘laws’ that has “cut the strings”.

    And I ask again, what kind of Loving God will curse an entire creation because two innocent people who knew nothing about right and wrong disobeyed him? Would you do the same to your child who ate all the peanut butter from your cupboard after you told them not to?

    Where was the ever present God when Adam and Eve ate the fruit?

    For you to sit and watch your kids do evil deeds and disobey you, you are more evel than they are, remember you are the wise one who the bible claimed to be a sinner, adam and eve was never a sinner

    another note

    death came from sin as the bible stated….just imagine how much life would be on earth if there was no sin…think about every single person and living creature in the sea and land that have died since the biblical time began….God would have proven by now his plan was not well thought of, because the earth would have been too full will life that walketh and creepeth ๐Ÿ˜‰


  9. evil* typo


  10. been too full with =typo


  11. postage โ†‘, up
    up above
    pls clarify if
    you refer to
    Free Will:-
    or Free Willy

    p.s. why do people act like they are in
    court when they never spend any time
    in court (or having to defend themselves)
    for years and years like others who
    have more experience than :
    judges barristers and lawyers who just
    talk
    about it


  12. Technician // January 29, 2010 at 2:19 PM

    @ GPโ€ฆ

    It is remarkable that men chose to devise doctines and dogma by totally disregarding and distorting the clear teaching of the scriptures.

    Isnโ€™t this the crux of the matter?

    I THOUGHT THAT YOU UNDERSTOOD THIS. ROTFLMAO

    BTW The Brethren (so called because JN Darby, Cronin and the others did not want to start a new denomination) are definitely NOT wrong.

    Coming out of the dark ages Darby et all (former Anglican ministers in Ireland) studied the Word and discivered the concept of dispensationalism, by which serious scholars all RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD.

    This led to the first and the simplest of the major study Bibles= the Scofield Reference Bible, and Dallas Theological Seminary from which has emerged some of the clearest and soundest expositors of the Word of God.

    (Thats a little church history)

    Niether Zoe or I have said that our denomination alone is right . What Zoe has done with respect to the SDA’s is to compare some of the the main planks of their beliefs with what the word teaches.

    If one really wants to know the truth, one would
    1- search the scriptures as taught by Jesus in John 5:39
    2- study ……….in order to rightly divide as taught in 2 Tim 2:15
    3- compare what is read or heard with what the Bible says as is taught in Acts 17.

    Having done this one can decide for one self who is wrong and who is right.

    It is really very very simple.

    Zoe has obviously done this and has come to his conclusion.

    Have you?


  13. Annonymous
    I agree with your position.

    Sound exegesis again Zoe. Most enlightening and entertaining.

    Continue please. Dont be distracted.


  14. “Sound exegesis again Zoe. Most …entertaining.”


  15. @ GP…

    Zoe has obviously done this and has come to his conclusion.

    Have you?

    Man you really expect a dumb dog like me to do in a year, what it took Zoe and you decades to achieve.
    I aint even 1000th as smart as you guys…give me some time man…I now starting the process of elimination.


  16. I agree with ROK re there is no need to counter attack. Bajan Atheist has shared his views. He/she has raised concerns that have been raised by others on BU. These issues will not be resolved by any test or measurement that we can devise. I believe that we should “agree to disagree” and get on with the more immediate and useful task of enjoying our mortal lives and do whatever we can to help others enjoy theirs.

    As for the attacks of Zoe on Adventism, it is probably true to say that he can only do this anonymously on BU. He would not dare submit the same essay with his true name, to a newspaper for publication. It is likely that no newspaper would publish it anyway.

    As I survey my family members and circle of friends, I note that there are Catholics, Anglicans, Pentecostals, Wesleyans, Methodists, Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses, Muslims, Hindus and even Agnostics. I treasure them all. We care for each other (that’s why we are family and friends) and our religious differences of opinion are really only of intellectual concern. When one of us is sick or in need the others show empathy and assist however they can. Of course there are times when we argue but this has never been as a result of religion. It is my assertion that this happy state exists because we live in Barbados which does not have a state sponsored religion and operates mainly under laws that are secular. It is a country that subscribes and practices the precepts of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, supports democratic selection of Government, educates its citizens by way of a liberal curriculum and generally promotes a Humanist value system. I am happy to be living in Barbados where religion is a matter of only individual concern.


  17. @ David
    Re Zoe
    Attacking other religions serves to feed the cynical among us.
    Use your scholarship to enlighten us about the creator.

    Zoe is indeed correct in stating that we have by sound systematic exegesis used our scholarship in a valiant attempt to enlighten BU readers about the Creator and his Word.

    SDA purports to be Christians. In fact they emerged from the Baptist church. But if you check their doctrine, you will find that there are departures from what the Word teaches.

    For years I have heard Bible illiterates say you guys think you know it all and you are right. How can you disagree with Tom Dick and Harry? But the questioners have never studied the Bible thoroughly for themselves in a solid sound systematic way. Nor are they really interested in hearing the answer.

    In this case, the tenets of SDA are well known. It is in print! All Zoe has done is indicate how the principles of the SDA differs or deviates from what the Bible teaches.

    What is evident from the outpouring of the usual raga ragga on BU is that no one who has commented can stay on the point of Zoes discussion, because
    1- they donโ€™t understand the SDA teachings,
    2- they donโ€™t understand what the Bible says that refutes the SDA teachings
    3- they do not care about either 1 or 2
    4 all of the above
    5 none of the above
    6 other

    Everyone has the right to believe what they wish. This also includes believers. But having expressed their beliefs, a believer ought to be able to support these beliefs by relevant scriptures. Zoe has done this in the approved fashion.

    He has amiably demonstrated in all of his posts how a Bible scholar goes about seeking to master a particular text or passage. He has referred to Matthew Henryโ€™s commentary, which alongside Jamieson Fawcett & Brown is one of the oldest and standard Bible commentaries that have stood the test of time. He has also done the necessary word studies from some of the leading and approved Word Study texts. He has compared scripture with scripture as enjoined in 2 Peter 1 :20.

    He can this claim to have acted like a true Bible scholar and has exhibited genuine scholarship!

    In response, the so called discussion is as usualโ€ฆโ€ฆโ€ฆragga ragga ragga


  18. oh I am not the same “anonymous” @10:37 a.m.


  19. @ Bajan Atheist

    Since you believe in the gods of love and hate. Which is a start to your understanding of God.

    I will say to you simply without refuting further anything you have said, to read the bible which are the words of God yourself. The answers you seek are therein.

    I like to ask persons to read for themselves else the discussion will become one of back and forth between you and myself. We will therefore prevent confusion from reigning.


  20. Technician
    Zoe has obviously done this and has come to his conclusion. Have you?

    No I dont expect you to do in a year what it took Zoe decades to achieve.

    The point I was making is that there is a process, that has been followed……….
    and sucessfully so by many men who were actually atheists. They didnt even start out in the church like you did. LOL

    There are many books and testimonies and documentaries about such men, man.


  21. @GP and Zoe

    With respect, we have to side with Bush Tea regarding the how. All of our reason and commonsense points to a Jesus issuing rebukes and correction with a loving intention. How else would he have expected to attract converts? Sadly the hard positions delivered with a hammer like forced by some on BU will always turn off those who are agnostic or otherwise influenced. Why adopt a posture which alienates and destroys bridges of healing or consensus-building.

    Please don’t respond, we have been here before. The religious debates to nowhere on BU reflect a microcosm of the confusion which reins supreme in our world.


  22. Hants

    I donโ€™t think that either Zoe or I will be engaging in any counter attacks on Bajan Atheist. Like you, my paternal took me across St Paulโ€™s pasture to St Paulโ€™s patronal festival when I was about 6 years old. I was an ardent Anglican for 10 years. I learned there, in primary school and in my home that there is a God. I believed it then, and I still believe it over 50 years later, even though I have experienced and witnessed all the things that Bajan Atheist enumerated in his well articulated post— which was of a quality far above the ragga ragga raga BU, in terms of structure, sequence and substance of compositionโ€ฆ..even though the Theology is flawed.

    As Zoe has pointed out, over the last year for sure MORE SOUND EXEGETICAL THEOLOGY HAS BEEN PRESENTED ON BU THAN IS HEARD IN MANY A CHURCH IN BARBADOS.

    We will continue so to do. If you hang around you will certainly learn some Theology.
    As you so correctly opined โ€œI am an adult and responsible for myselfโ€ฆโ€ฆโ€ฆโ€ฆโ€ฆ. but I still believe in God. Each to his own.

    Continue in that vain Sir, and take Jesus into your heart as your personal Savior.


  23. @Anonymous

    words of God? who said the words of the bible are the words of God?

    as i said in the previous postings, if the god in the bible is real, he is not worthy of worship based on something called common sense and rational thinking…the God as outlined in the bible can not be a real God if he is what the bible said who he is…it just doesnt make any sense whatsoever…

    why should i seek guidance from a book written by people who did not even know the earth was round, farther more even knew how life existed…

    dont give me the crap about holy men either, because if i want to write a book and deem it holy from a spiritual perspective, only obvious i would add in the fact that my imaginary being i believe in has given me the words…

    man knew nothing about how/when/why life came to be on this planet, so they came up with a theory of an invisible being who created everything…someone who they call God who is perfect that made an imperfect everything…there’s a story for ya

    sorry but i dont believe in fairy tales…btw i was a baptist and sda, who guided many people into the faiths, but after sitting down and thinking about everything with something called common sense, the bible can in no way be true as it relates to a supreme being…and if it is true, he is not worthy of worship…common sense by everyday evidence of facts overcome faith in an unknown being more than 100%, all you can provide is a bible scriptures written by men who wanted you to believe in what they believed, with no factual evidence…

    i see religion as superstition…there is no proof God exists.


  24. Oh GP ,

    you wrote “Continue in that vain Sir, …”. For someone who came first in English at HC (and a doctor to boot) didn’t you mean “vein” or maybe you really meant “vain” as in “in vain”!! LOL (couldn’t resist hitting that full toss!)


  25. Jesus ask ‘the father’ “why hast thou forsaken me?”

    reason? everyone around him made him believe that he was the son of a higher being, and he believed it until he was at death’s door, then he cried out to that higher being with the question, “why hast thou forsaken me?”

    if god is real, he does make mistakes, no perfect God as outlined in the bible can produce imperfection, or should i say should produce imperfection…its just a concept and idea, that was never and still cant be proven


  26. David

    With respect Jesus issued the sternest rebukes and correction found in the Bible.
    So did Paul. So did Peter and Stephen in Acts. So did the OT prophets. So did Moses

    Read the Scriptures again. Jesus did not say that he expected to attract converts. He said that he was doing and saying what His father told him to say and do.

    He took on the Pharisees and Saducess and the Sanhedrin squarely. There was no compromise with Jesus.

    I am not seeking to attract converts on BU. I use the opportunity given me on BU to share the truth of Godโ€™s Word, and I donโ€™t use any hammer. I simply seek to teach the Truth as I have understood it, as accurately as I can. I am always attacked!

    I have never seen you ask my attackers to adopt a posture that does not alienate or destroys bridges of healing or consensus-building. In fact when I chose to ignore one particular poster, you ENCOURAGED ME STEDFASTLY TO ENJOIN! Ah lie?

    BU is about enjoining it seems. Its about digging. Its about if you cand stand the heat donโ€™t come in the kitchen. BU is about any man spouting their opinion how they want, when they want, and if they want and THEY DO IT WITH A HAMMER AND HATE!

    But if a believer writes a post, he is not to use BIBLE LANGUAGE as Zoe likes to do. Ah lie?

    It is noteworthy Sir that the Word of God has been described as a hammer. In Hebrews it is described as a sharp two edged sword.

    There are hard positions presented in the Bible, whether folk like it or not; and life is hard and presents many hard to explain scenarios as articulated by the Bajan atheist.

    And you might recall David Sir that our parents, and school teachers delivered hard positions with the equivalent of a hammer; and these positions were also forced upon us. Ah lie?

    Those who are agnostic or otherwise influenced will generally continue to hold their positions, regardless.

    You talk about โ€œthe religious debates to nowhere on BUโ€ but I donโ€™t see bridge building or consensus-building on ANY of the other debates on BU.

    I donโ€™t come in BU to debate Bible. I share Bible information or teach Bible or answer questions about the Bible to the best of my ability.

    Medical illiterates cant debate medical matters, nor can Bible illiterates. So I donโ€™t waste my time.


  27. David wrote

    “The religious debates to nowhere on BU reflect a microcosm of the confusion which reins supreme in our world.”

    Fortunately in Barbados, such debates are mostly fun and do not lead to any confusion. These issues are inconsequential except for trivial things like what day one worships on and the foods one may not consume. Barbadians may argue passionately about religion but it is just “sound and fury signifying nothing”.

    May it always be so in Barbados.


  28. Annonymous
    It seems that I am getting dyslexic these days man, athough I do love to practice malapropisms.


  29. @GP

    No reason to be thin skinned Brother P. In any tough debate one side is expected to show leadership if a consensus is to be reached. It seems normal to assume that those on the Christian side would be the ones to demonstrate such.

    Read you commentary where you seem to be shirking a Christian responsibility to spread the word. The fact that you et al would want to separate spreading the word with the manner in which it is being delivered seems illogical. Jesus had his Apostles did he not? Would he have instructed them to just spread the word in a vacuum by disregarding good communication skills 101? …LOL


  30. @ David

    A webmaster in every sense of the word.

    “Please donโ€™t respond, we have been here before. The religious debates to nowhere on BU reflect a microcosm of the confusion which reins supreme in our world”.

    This thread must be attracting lots of visitors since you appear to be stoking the fire?

    What are your stats saying? LOL


  31. @Anonymous 2010/01/30 at 1:24pm

    We maybe stoking the fire but it is not for the reason you suggest. Brother P knows BU does not agree with how the word is delivered by some on BU. It is a matter of record. We have to admit we have learned a lot from how Brother P has divided the word. BU also has never been stat watchers even though we seem to attract controversy and we know controversy and climbing stats relates…LOL


  32. On โ€œAll of our reason and commonsense points to a Jesus issuing rebukes and correction with a loving intention. How else would he have expected to attract converts? Sadly the hard positions delivered with a hammer like forced by some on BU will always turn off those who are agnostic or otherwise influenced. Why adopt a posture which alienates and destroys bridges of healing or consensus-building.โ€

    Titus 1
    Paul teaches that church leaders must โ€ฆ.

    9. Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
    10. For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11. Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
    12. One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
    13. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14. Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
    15. Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
    16. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

    The last two verses about the โ€œdefiled and unbelievingโ€ are definitely not sweet and dandy.

    Verse 16 describes the true state of the hearts of the mockers and scoffers whether they call themselves agnostics, atheists or apostates.

    Here is Peterโ€™s description of apostates in 2 Peter 2: 20. He really sugar coats it doesnโ€™t he. Note his voive of โ€œreasonโ€ and bridge buiding for healing or consensus-building.โ€

    Man Peter calls a spade a spade! Seems like he used a hammer to me.

    20. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
    21. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
    22. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


  33. Anonymous the โ€œreligious discussionsโ€ on BU certainly attract a lot of visitors to BU.

    And yes David Brother P knows BU does not agree with how the word is delivered by some on BU and that it is a matter of record.

    But I will look for some more passages to indicate that Jesus and the apostles were not taught, nor did they engage in good communication skills 101. They just gave the Word out.

    This is clearly indicated from Peter and Paulโ€™s sermons in Acts, and in all the Epistles.

    In fact careful perusal of the epistles will indicate that ALL THE MAJOR ERRORS IN THE CONTEMPORARY CHURCH EXISTED IN EMBRYONIC FORM AT THE TIME OF THE START OF THE CHURCH AGE.

    Careful perusal of the epistles will indicate also that ALL OF THESE MAJOR ERRORS WERE ADDRESSED IN THE EPISTLES AND THE NT! ALL OF THEM! SO THERE IS NO NEED FOR THE WILLFULL CONFUSION.

    There is not going to be consensus on what the Bible teaches Sir, and this is so regardless to what believers say or do. As we have pointed out unbelievers are unbelievers because they want to remain unbelievers or agnostics or atheists or apostates or all of the above.

    The role of the believer is not to achieve consensus but to teach/preach the Word in season and out of season (i.e persistently and perennially).

    I am not at all thin skinned. I am just stating facts..

    It might seem illogical to you that we would want to separate spreading the word with the manner in which it is being delivered, but I again stress so did Jesus, the apostles in the NT, the prophets in the OT and all the effective โ€ฆโ€ฆโ€ฆโ€ฆโ€ฆโ€ฆโ€ฆโ€ฆand you cant prove otherwise from a search of the Scriptures. LOL


  34. Bajan Atheist

    Who was one in the Baptist and SDA church. You are what the Bible call an APOSTATE

    Here is what JUDE in his text book about apostates from the beginning of time to the present says about the CHAACTERISTICS AND CONDEMNATION OF APOSTATES with no comment or interpretatin from me.

    4. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    5. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

    6. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    7. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    8. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

    9. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

    10. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

    11. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

    12. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13. Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

    14. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

    16. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage.

    17. But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18. How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

    19. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

    He is quite accurate, isnt he?


  35. Anonymous 1
    “I am happy to be living in Barbados where religion is a matter of only individual concern.”

    No it is not. It is a matter of national concern. It permeates everything, as I will demonstrate below.

    Anonymous 2
    “I will say to you simply without refuting further anything you have said, to read the bible which are the words of God yourself.”

    Note the bias. Two issues come forward here. First, note the qualification, “which are the words of God”. There is an assertion that the bible is the word of god.

    The second part is the worse, “words of God”. Now when they say “god”, this is to the exclusion of all other “gods”. This is where the argument starts with christians and this is where the state itself adopts the religion. This is a real danger because our constitution and system adopt christianity above all other religions. Keywords: God, Jesus, Christ, Creator, Almighty.

    Therefore, as soon as your god does not include these, you are a target of the society.

    Humanitarian? Christianity is so cruel that a man would suffer in this society as shown by the vagrants and homeless on the streets, and inequalities that social justice delivers.


  36. Watch HELP HAITI NOW streaming LIVE in Barbados.


  37. @GP

    We do not go only by bible translations when we read the bible, not being present how would you or anybody know how Jesus delivered his words? Did he use a soft dulcet tone? Did he deliver in the rumshop style of the American evangelists? Did he do so with the pomp, smugness and ceremony of the Anglican and Catholic Church?

    BU suggests to you et al you can’t because that Sire cannot be found anywhere in the bible with certainty. Like most things commonsense must interlace with how we interpret and live life.

    When a teacher is given a curriculum and told to teach isn’t it common sense that the most effective teachers will be the ones who are cognizant of the best skills required to ensure the word is not only correctly divided but also 100% received by students? Why would you come to BU with the view to only spread the word without using all your learning and experience to make sure your word has stickability?


  38. ROK

    of course given our history, Barbados could be said to be Christian nation. However other than political posturing and giving lip service, Barbados really does not take religious views in account.

    If we were really “Christian”, Barbados would NOT have:

    * support for family planning,
    * legal abortion,
    * divorce,
    * recognition of common law marriage,
    * inclusion of the claims of children born out of wedlock in the estate of fathers,
    * equal pay for equal work,
    * education of females,
    * respect for the customs of Rastafarians, Muslims etc in public schools,
    * disestablishment of the Anglican Church,
    *opening of stores on Saturdays and Sundays
    * the employment of transvestites
    etc.
    *the teaching of evolution in public schools

    etc


  39. David
    The NT was written in koine Greek. It is a very exact language.

    If you read the ipsimae verbae used by Paul Peter Jesus et al in the koine Greek, the ipsima vox is easily determined.

    Wheras I am not a fire and brimstone or hell fire preacher, note that Jesus was the major teacher on tis topic in the Bible.

    And whereas I have often come to BU with the view to only spread the word, and have sought to use all my learning and experience to make sure my word had stickability, it availed nothing.

    On one occasion after a simple explanation of Daniel on the teaching of the Antichrist., the response was “Swineflu!”

    A believer posting on BU can not win regardless to what he does. Some will read a post, and gather nothing it seems by a trivial mistake in spelling or a word like FOOL and hld on to that. All Bible posters on BU are described as one lot, whatever you do.


  40. Here is another important verse by Paul from Hebrews 6:4-6 on apostasy and apostates

    4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

    5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

    6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


  41. it should read

    Some will read a post, and gather nothing it seems EXCEPT a trivial mistake in spelling or a word like FOOL and hold on to that. All Bible posters on BU are described as one lot, whatever you do.

    Now in real Bible debates on a Bible topic, opponents bring scripture to show why they think that another persons view is correct or incorrect. This is what Zoe sought to do in his explanation of the SDA’s as a cult.

    No one has refuted any scripture he has cited, but many have joined in the raga raga raa raga emotional rantings and ravings. Its hilarious!


  42. @ROK

    The bible says there are many gods, and many lords, but my focus naturally would be on the Christian God:

    1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many)
    1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    Yes the Constitution in many areas of the western world was created on Christian principles to the most part, and has served us well over many years. Don’t you think?

    If you were to look at eastern societies who serve other gods they soceities are full of the destruction that Bajan atheist as you agreed has spoken so eloquently about. Because of these Christian principles, which I am thankful to God for we in western societies which are much better from my eastern counterpart, at least from where I sit.

    This, however, is slowly being eroded away because as you can clearly see homosexuality, and Gay marriages is becoming the norm, corporal punishment is becoming a no no. You can probably add others i have missed.

    I sure you’ll thank God with for these principles which allows us to live in the society in which we can call home, though not perfect.


  43. should read:

    I’m sure youโ€™ll thank God with me for these principles which allows us to live in the society in which we can call home, though not perfect.


  44. David here are some snippets from Jesus in action from John 8

    23. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
    24. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    If Zoe was to say that, all hell would break lose! BUT Jesus told the idiots of his day that they would DIE IN THEIR SINS.

    Despite this note that there were still some Jews that believed on him — and this after the cannibalistic confusion and commotion of chapter 6 when many followers departed.

    28. Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
    29. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
    30. As he spake these words, many believed on him.

    34. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
    35. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
    36. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

    44. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
    45. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
    46. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47. He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

    51. Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

    56. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

    59. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

    DO YOU THINK THAT THEY SOUGHT TO STONE HIM BECAUSE THEY LIKED WHAT HE SAID?

    DO YOU THINK THAT HE TOLD THEM THESE WORDS SOFTE AND SWEET AND MELLOW SIR?


  45. @ROK ypu wrote.

    “You sound real desperate. Why the need to โ€œcounter attack”

    my use of the phrase “counter attack” was not meant to be hostile but I is a Bajan and da is how we does talk sometimes.

    Prehaps I should have written ” GP and Zoe I request that you respond to Bajan Atheist”.

    Sounds more high falutin.


  46. @David
    GP Said: “I use the opportunity given me on BU to share the truth of Godโ€™s Word…”

    These are not simply unfair things to say but downright untruthful. He can share the word of his god, but from the point of view that it is a belief, he has no truth.

    Under the circumstances, I can only call people like these fanatics and lunatics. There are no other words to describe them.

    Furthermore, he wants to use tactics employed 2000 years ago in an environment that was hostile to christianity to justify the “hammer”.

    Anybody who is so searching for proof has no faith at all. They can’t believe in christianity without proof (what a dilemma). This is another thing that makes people of this ilk so dangerous.

    You need to let GP know what Christ himself in the story said about those who believe and have not seen. Certainly, GP is attempting to see and is still not seeing as seeing from this distance and time is not possible.

    With all his scholarly profession, the man still does not know what it is to have faith. This continual taunting that he has absolute truth and inciting his side kick to continue, is nothing more than pure disrespect and he cannot expect anything but disrespect in return; yet he wants respect.

    Everybody is entitled to their beliefs because that is what they are, “beliefs”. This means that nobody has proof of anything. Therefore when you bombard me with your beliefs, trying to hoodwink me into thinking that you have truth, it is not only against my constitutional right, but it is religious persecution by dishonest means.


  47. @GP…

    Some will read a post, and gather nothing it seems EXCEPT a trivial mistake in spelling or a word like FOOL and hold on to that. All Bible posters on BU are described as one lot, whatever you do

    Come on GP, that is certainly not true and you know it.

    You, Zoe and D, all post on BU in terms of religion.
    What I have found, is that many find it easy to respond to you because you do not show the arrogant, condescending attitude of the other two. However, if you continue to lump yourself with them because you are all Christians, then it is only obvious that you will feel the wrath of others.
    I have seen you engage many on this blog and the majority seem to have a lot of respect for you. Maybe it is the good nature or the cricket analogies that help to break the ice and let things run smooth.
    As brilliant as the other two are, their message rings hollow because it is accompanied with an arrogant, condescending , it is this way or the highway attitude, which stirs up more antagonism than interest.
    So please, call a spade a spade….your other two pals dont have your ability to reach others interest because of their attitudes and NOT because of their message.
    Hope this helps….lol.


  48. 59. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

    DO YOU THINK THAT THEY SOUGHT TO STONE HIM BECAUSE THEY LIKED WHAT HE SAID?

    DO YOU THINK THAT HE TOLD THEM THESE WORDS SOFTE AND SWEET AND MELLOW SIR?
    ************************

    Is there any proof to the contrary? The very context in which they were spoken needed no shouting to arouse such animosity. As a matter the more modest and soft spoken and firm at that time would have more incensed people than if he was shouting like a madman. If he was shouting like a madman they would have ignored him as a village character.

    The fact that he said something that was so against their religion as to constitute blasphemy, without a sign of being mad, would have aroused them to stone him to death. Note that he had to run. God had to run from man. LOL!


  49. The good thing about this thread is that it highlights some misinterpretations of the word. It also shows the effects of these misinterpretations.

    Here we have someone who claims to have been once a Christian, but because of certain experiences(probably) they have become an athesit. This is why it is imperative that any untruths spoken be made known. Not with maliciousness to pull down and destroy, but so as to prevent persons from being mislead.

    Bajan athiest(BA) claims to have attended the Baptist, and SDA churches. I too almost became a member of the SDA, but God stepped in the day before my baptizism, because if I had gone through with it, only to read the bible for myself I would have been disappointed. The saying is true that once bitten twice shy.

    Man is made of body, soul, and spirit. The spritual aspect of man is always trying to seek God, but the flesh(body) tries to oppose this. Persons who don’t know God, or whose flesh is winning the battle tend to replace this yearning with something else. This something else is usually sex, drugs, money, “spituality” or “knowledge”. Although they might recieve these things, still the sense of something missing engulfs them, this is because the spirit continues to thirst for God. They go after more and more of the money drugs etc which never pleases for any long period.

    BA you claim you once knew God, but i would submit to you that Paul on his way to Damascus thought he knew God and that he was in the perfect will of God, until Jesus came before him.

    You seem to have a good heart as you are worried about the devastation all over the place etc, which God i believe would like about you, because he likes persons who have honest hearts, so i would ask you to seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened, ask and it will be given unto you. Don’t just give up on God when he does show up he does it in a big way.

    I can further offer my testimony to you as to what God did for me to try and convince you that God does exist, but it is better that i don’t at this time.


  50. The bilge, rot, venom and hatred, for the righteousness and TRUTH of God’s Word, continues to be vented, right here on BU.

    A generation of VIPERS, masquerading under the ‘banner’ of so-called civic minded ‘tyrants’, whose *value free* cultural and moral *relativism* would embrace EVERYTHING, hence belief in NOTHING, when one has NO absolutes, re right and wrong, spiritually, anythings GOES!

    If the LIGHT that IS in YOU, is *DARKNESS* Oh, how GREAT is that DARKNESS!!!

    Remembering, DARKESS is the absense of LIGHT!

    LIGHT is SOMETHING! Darkness IS nothing!

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