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Submitted by Terence Blackett

One of the greatest historical deceptions of all times is the refusal of mainstream Christianity as well as secular society to accept and advocate the original Black pre-eminence and presence in the Bible. This historical seismic rift created a fabrication of diabolical proportions which has ebbed and flowed for the last 4000 years right up to our present time.

Jesusโ€™ First Advent came at a critical time when the final 2000 year epoch of human history was to begin the process of bringing home the lost sons and daughters of Israel back into a harmonious relationship with their God (Yah) – that they had long forgotten and had rebelled against for centuries. This process would eventually culminate with the sealing of 144,000 โ€“ 12,000 from each of the 12 Tribes who will not see death, but will be translated at the end of human history โ€“ when Jesus will appear the second time in the eastern sky with over a trillion angels enshrouded with majesty that no eye has ever beheld.

Meantime, the house of God remains in a pile of rubble. The walls broken down. No agreement to be found. The sanctuary defiled. The priests and prophets lie โ€“ preaching and teaching to their own means and the followers seem to like it so. While the vast throng of Godโ€™s people are living in deception, apathy and disbelief because godliness and righteousness is enshrouded (wrapped up) in fickle, baseless religiosity with no real knowledge of God in the land.

In the Christian world, 11 oโ€™clock on Sunday morning is still the most segregated time of the week. The division within the church world is split down the middle between the Black church and the White church. The sad reality is that the division is not based on issues that are fundamentally theological in nature but rather on a lack of acceptance of the historical connotations and the legacy of a supremacist exegetical form of Christianity that was unleashed on Blacks in an attempt to scientifically control and manipulate a nation of people into a position of subservience and socioeconomic control. This divide, conquer and rule principle has even dulled the appetites of many who merely see Christianity as a tool the White man has used as a sabre of oppression to subjugate and force control of the minds of Black folks โ€“ a successful form of intrigue which still bears damnable fruit today.

This vicious lie took on dimensions long before the evolution of Christian religious modernity. The modern Ashkenazim Jew โ€“ PALESKIN converts (as far as 1100 years ago) a people (from the cold tundra-lands of Western/Eastern Europe) worked feverishly to assimilate and control all the nations of world (as far back as the Crusades) and to finally say they were whole again (with the formation of the state of Israel in 1948) โ€“ but that has been a colossal deception of gargantuan proportions swallowed by well-meaning Christians (both Black and White alike) and held up as a totem pole to be revered and worshipped like Mosesโ€™ serpent which was held up in the wilderness. Yet the 10 Tribes of millions of true Jewish/Israelite peoples are still very much scattered at large in every nook and cranny of earth (people particularly of Black ethnic origins) covering the landscape of earth โ€“ many still living under the weight of servitude and oppression.

Jesus had warned that upon โ€œthis Rockโ€ He would build His Church (many still believe it is the Catholic Church) โ€“ who through Satanโ€™s insidious work for thousands of years has built a counterfeit, corrupt, subversive monolith which tries to resemble the real thing and would fool the world into accepting the phony for the authentic. Moses was warned in Exodus 20: 25 that โ€œif thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.โ€ Every since then man has sought to carve out their own altar of stone in the hope that it would be acceptable to God โ€“ not realising that God wonโ€™t accept anything other than the genuine or what He has asked for.

Samuel L. Williams, former pastor of the 650-member Friendship Baptist Church and former chairman of Atlanta’s Human Relations Committee who was also academic dean at Morehouse College in Atlanta said – “White America would rather see this nation destroyed than give up white racism. The worst institution in America today is the white church. It has more hypocrisy per square inch than any other. And no impression I have received in the past five years has made any difference.”

C. Eric Lincoln defines in his book โ€œThe Black Church in the African American Experienceโ€ (Durham Duke University Press, 1990) – how โ€œthe Black Churchโ€ in America is seen as the independent, historic, and completely black-controlled denominations founded during slavery. Although there have been African-American believers in denominations governed by white Americans – the Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist, and Lutheran churches, for instance – Lincolnโ€™s definition includes 7 major historic Black denominations: the African Methodist Episcopal (A.M.E.) Church; the African Methodist Episcopal Zion (A.M.E.Z.) Church; the Christian Methodist Episcopal (C.M.E.) Church; the National Baptist Convention, U.S.A., Incorporated (N.B.C.); the National Baptist Convention of America, Unincorporated (N.B.C.A.); the Progressive National Baptist Convention (P.N.B.C.); and the Church of God in Christ (C.O.G.I.C.).

I however believe that as was aforementioned in my opening remarks on this issue that writers, theologians and academics are still blind-sided as to the part that ethnicity played in the Holy Scriptures from its inception โ€“ given that “Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married, for he had married an Ethiopian woman.” God then struck Miriam with leprosy. Why? Consider this possibility. In Godโ€™s anger at Miriam, (Mosesโ€™ sister), God says in effect, “how would you like to be pale-skinned Miriam? Then, Iโ€™ll make you pale-skinned.” So we read, “When the cloud removed from over the tent, behold, Miriam was leprous, like snow” (Num. 12:10). The question we must all ask โ€“ โ€œHow does God view color?โ€ Also, in determining any religious orthodoxy, what part does race, gender or social creed play in its makeup?

Racism in any form is still a difficult โ€œrealityโ€ to define far less comprehend given the fact that we are all potentially โ€“ โ€˜human beingsโ€™. In the book of the Acts of the Apostles, God convicted Peter of his religious racism in a vision and told him to accept the Gentiles as brothers in Christ. โ€œPeter opened his mouth and said: โ€œTruly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.โ€ (Acts.10: 34-35). Paul also wrote that โ€œThere is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.โ€ (Galatians 3:28). God made us and He made the color of our skins, and He saw that His work was good.

Even outside of mainstream Christianity, denominations like the Mormon church have long held that a visible code of religious bias and bigotry towards people of color even though the Bible reveals that Abraham married an Egyptian; Joseph, the son of Jacob (later called Israel) married an Egyptian woman Asenath and bore Ephraim and Manasseh; Moses married โ€œan Ethiopian womanโ€; and most importantly Judah married a Canaanite (BLACK) woman that Jesus Himself is a direct descendant of. So for me what beggars belief is – how can Mormons say that Hamites couldnโ€™t have the priesthood when the Israelites themselves were at least (for the sake of anthropological argument sake) ONE-THIRD Hamitic?

In the closing phases of a post-Apartheid South Africa, it was interesting to see the Dutch Reformed Church offer a public apology for the devilish curse of religious racism towards the oppressed majority โ€“ words that still echo some 20 years later but where little has really been done to heal an age-old rift between two altars of stones where the sacrifices of religious ceremony is still being offered to appease a God who wants nothing more than for all men to come into the unity of the faith.

I close with those famous words offered to the peoples of South Africa but words echoed down through the hallowed hallways of 400 years of separation, segregation and ethnic sanction of a race of people who continue to still be maligned because of the color of their skin: – ”We confess with humility and sorrow the participation of our church in the introduction and legitimation of the ideology of apartheid and the subsequent suffering of people..”

In conclusion, let me also echo the words of Jesus as they came forth from the mouth of Abraham Lincoln on June 16, 1858, where more than 1,000 Republican delegates met in the Springfield, Illinois, statehouse for the Republican State Convention.

At 5 p.m. they chose Abraham Lincoln as their candidate for the U.S. Senate, running against Democrat Stephen A. Douglas. At 8 p.m. Lincoln delivered his address to his Republican colleagues in the Hall of Representatives. The title of his speech came from a sentence in the speech’s introduction, “A House Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand,” which paraphrases a statement by Jesus in Matthew 12:25.

Lincoln’s friends believed the speech was too radical for the occasion. His law partner, William H. Herndon, thought that Lincoln was morally courageous but politically incorrect and possibly suicidal. Herndon said Lincoln told him he was looking for a universally known figure of speech that would rouse people to the peril of the times.

The speech began:

โ€œMr. President and Gentlemen of the Convention.

If we could first know where we are, and whither we are tending, we could then better judge what to do, and how to do it. We are now far into the fifth year, since a policy was initiated, with the avowed object, and confident promise, of putting an end to slavery agitation. Under the operation of that policy, that agitation has not only, not ceased, but has constantly augmented. In my opinion, it will not cease, until a crisis shall have been reached, and passed. โ€˜A house divided against itself cannot stand.โ€™ I believe this government cannot endure; permanently half slave and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved – I do not expect the house to fall – but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other. Either the opponents of slavery, will arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of ultimate extinction; or its advocates will push it forward, till it shall become alike lawful in all the States, old as well as new – North as well as South. Have we no tendency to the latter condition?

The question the modern Church must now ask โ€“ can we ill-afford another hundred years of the same old divisions or isnโ€™t time to heal the rift and have one altar upon which we offer our sacrifices?


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365 responses to “Two Altars Of Stone:- The Black Church Versus The White Church – A House Divided Against Itself”


  1. @Anonymous

    “I can further offer my testimony to you as to what God did for me to try and convince you that God does exist…”

    No skipper, the only thing you can do is offer testimony of what you believe your god did for you and that these things that convince you that your god exist.

    You don’t have no dominion on the word “god”. Other people have gods that don’t amount to yours. There is no universal god accepted by all religions. There are several different gods, so you talk of the god of the bible that you believe in. You need to understand that yours is but one out of many.


  2. Techie

    I do apreciate and respect your note and its good intentions, and I do enjoy our interchanges.

    However, I must confess that I dont really find Zoe and Dictionary as arrogant and condescending as others who bring nothing at all to this forum in any Biblical discussion.

    You and David admit to have learned a little from my posts. I have learned much from the others despite the flaws that you all point out in these men. After all I have had teachers at school and at UWI that were more arrogant than they and taught me much less.

    I am sure that many of us have had similar teachers and even parents whose delivery of mores and other instruction was far from right.

    I learn from these guys because their message and exegesis is sound. For those claiming to be following the Bible, they do so accurately. That is the most important thing for ME! RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH.

    For you and others you wish to have a perfect messenger with a perfect message in an IMPERFECT WORLD! LOL.

    Now you have annonymous who obviously has some real and relevant experience with the LOrd whom you can listen to instead.

    Again you are at least decent enough to concede that these men are brilliant…..even though you are one of their persistent attackers. You are one of few who have admitted that these guys have something to offer, and have offered something on BU. And I credit you for that.

    Again I repeat that the tenor and tone of the original koine Greek account of the NT indicates that ” this way or the highway attitude: is the way it is. LOL

    John 14:6 says JESUS IS THE WAY!
    Acts 4:12 says there is no other name given under heaven wherby you must be saved etc etc

    the tenor and tone of the original koine Greek account of the NT indicates that THIS IS THE WAY THE ONLY WAY or as you said the highway.

    I dont see the need for antagonism when you can scroll pass so very easily.

    Dont you see how well I do that? LOL

    .Hope this helpsโ€ฆ.lol.


  3. @Zoe

    I don’t mind you. The only venom coming forth is yours.


  4. Now Techie

    Take the last post above by Zoe.

    That is water off a ducks back man. That is the norm in any Bible believing Bible teacing Baptist church man. Dont you hear men like Hagee and others on the go? LOL!

  5. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    โ€œThis is spelled out in a nice book by Daniel Wegner โ€œThe illusion of conscious willโ€. The neurobiology is not crystal clear yet, but it is clear that our sensation of conscious choice follows by a substantial lag the actual mechanism of choice made elsewhere in our brains.โ€
    ………….

    LOL… not crystal clear nuh? Bajan Atheist, that is what happens when you rely on a psychologist for information on neurobiology ๐Ÿ™‚

    Think about these three questions (two scientific and the third philosophical) and then read Wegnerโ€™s book againโ€ฆ

    1/ Does awareness of volition occur in time to veto associated actions?

    2/ Does the separation of neural pathways preclude causal relationships between neural processes?

    3/ To paraphrase Jerry Fodor, is life worth living if your wants are not causally responsible for your reach, or your beliefs not causally responsible for your words?


  6. Seventh-day Adventism.

    Hell and Punishment in New Testament Greek.

    Adventists don’t believe in the biblical doctrine and teaching of Eternal Punishment for the unregenerate, the lost, those who rejected Almighty’s God mercy, grace and love through Jesus’ sacrificial, atoning, Death on Calvary, and His resurrection from the dead, for our Justification.

    Dr. Walter Martin, ‘Kingdom of the Cults, shows from the Greek New Testament the followings facts:

    “The grammar of the Greek New Testament teaches *unquestionably* the doctrine of Hell and eternal punishment. Nowhere IS this more pointedly brought out than in the following passages.”

    1. Matthew 5:22 and 10: 28: “Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of HELL FIRE.” Fear him which is able to destroy both SOUL and BODY in hell.”

    “In both passages the Greek word ‘gehenna’ portrays a place of punishment for the unsaved. Gehenna orginally meant Valley of Hinnom, a garbage dump which smoldered perpetually outside Jerusalem. The rabbis believed that punishment after DEATH could be likened to Gehenna and often threatened their people with punishment after death. The Lord Jesus Christ, however, pointed out to the unbelieving Jews that those who rejected Him could look forward to EVERLASTING Gehenna. In Matthew 10:28, He coupled ‘gehenna’ with ‘apolesai’ which Thayer’s Greek lexicon defines as ‘to be delivered up to ETERNAL misery.’ Gehenna, then, symbolizes eternal SEPARATION and CONSCIOUS punishment for the spiritual nature of the unregenerate man. This eternity of punishment IS also taught in the Old Testament; e.g., “Their worm shall NOT DIE, neither shall their fire be QUENCHED” (Isaiah 66:24).

    2. 2 Thessalonians 1: 8, 9: “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey NOT the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.”

    “From the context, especially verse 8, “everlasting destruction” is to be that of “flaming fire.” visited upon those who ‘obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.” The heart of the problem here is the meaning of the word “destruction,” which the Adventists claim is reduction to a state of non-existence (Questions on Doctrine, p.14). As a matter of fact, the Greek word ‘olethros’ used here has the clear meaning of “ruining.” (For this and the following lexical studies, any standard New Testament Greek lexicon or grammar bears out the meaning presented here). We see then, that everlasting destruction or “ruination” is the lot of those who know not God. Many people who are not well versed in Greek try to make “destruction” synonymous with “annihilation.” This does violence to New Testament Greek, which supports NO such concept. A common illustration will show the fallacy of this idea.”

    “In the course of her work a housewife changes light bulbs and sometimes one drops to the floor and breaks. Of course the bulb has been “destroyed,” but no one would say that it had been annihilated, for there IS a difference between The ‘function’ of an object and its ‘nature.’ The function of the bulb is to give forth light. When broken, its FUNCTION is destroyed, but the glass remains, although in fragments, and so does the metal base. Although the bulb has been “ruined” or “destroyed” it certainly has not been “reduced to nothing.”

    “The Bible teaches that unregenerate men will suffer the eternal wrath of God and must undergo destruction and ruin of their ORIGINAL *function* which was “to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever.” But the human spirit, created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26,27), remains intact, a spiritual entity of eternal existence, capable of enduring eternally the righteous and just Judge.”

    3. Revelation 20: 10: “The devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are, and THEY will be tormented day and night into the EVERLASTING of the EVERLASTING” (literal translation).

    “The root meaning of the Greek word ‘basanizo’ is “to torment, to be harassed, to torture or to vex with greivous pain,” and is used throughout the New Testament to denote the great conscious pain and misery, NEVER annihilation, or cessation of consciousness. The reader who wishes to pursue this point may look up the following verses where this word is used: Matthew 8: 6, 29; Mark 5:7; Luke 8:28; revelation 14:10, 11. In each place, ‘basanizo’ means conscious “torment.” In Revelation 14:10, 11, speaking of the followers of the Beast, unmistakably it means torment or punishment, everlasting or never-ceasing.”

    “In Revelation 20:10, Satan, the beast and the false prophet are described as tormented (basanis thesontai) “day and night into the everlasting of the everlasting.” So if language means anything at all, in the context alone the theory of the annihilation or, as the Adventists say, the final destruction of the wicked is itself annihilated.”

    4. John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life, and he that believeth NOT the Son shall NOT see life, but the WARTH of God abideth on him.”

    “Our fourth and final grammatical point relative to the doctrine of annihilation is made by coupling Romans 2: 8, 9 and Revelation 14:10 with John 3: 36. Jesus tells us that the one who BELIEVES in the Lord Jesus Christ already HAS everlasting LIFe (present tense); and then, of one who “believes NOT the Son,” he states that he “SHALL NOT see life, BUT the WARTH of God abides on him.” The Greek word ‘menei’, here translated ‘abide’ appears several times in the New Testament. It carries the idea of continuous action (see John 1:33; 2: 12; 8:31; 15:9). Thus, in John 3:36 the Holy Spirit says that the wrath of God continually ‘abides’ on the one who ‘believeth NOT the Son.” Comparing this with Romans 2: 8,9, we see that those who do NOT obey the truth but do evil are the objects of God’s wrath, which Revelation 14:10, 11 describes as eternal. “The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God…and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for EVER and EVER: and they have no rest day or night.”

    ‘Orges’ translated “wrath” appears in each of the verses cited, so there can be no doubt that the same subject is being discused. It is apparent then that, far from the comparatively blissful prospect of total annihilation, those who “have NOT the Son of God have NOT life,” and “the wrath of God continues upon them.” God’s wrath even now hangs like the sword of Damocles over the heads of those who deny Jesus Christ. It wil strike when the rebellious soul goes into eternity and appears before the bar of God’s eternal justice.”

    “Dr. Francis Pieper, the great Lutheran scholar and author of the monumental Christian Dogmatics, states my view in essence when he says:

    ‘Holy Scripture teaches the truth of an eternal damnation so clearly and emphatically that one cannot deny it without, at the same time, rejecting the authority of Scripture. Scripture parallels the ETERNAL salvation of the believers and the ETERNAL damnation of the unbelievers. Whoever therefore denies the one must, to be consistent, deny the other (Matthew 25: 46). We find the same juxtaposition and antithesis in other passages of Scripture. This parallelism proves that the term ‘eternity’ in the sense of limited duration as sometimes used in Holy Writ, is inapplicable here. We must take the predicate ETERNAL in its proper or strict sense, a sense of ‘sine fine’ in all Scripture texts which use it to describe the duration and the penalties of the wicked in yonder life (see 2 Thess 1:9; Matt 18:8; Mark 3: 29)…The objections raised in all ages to the endlessness of the infernal punishment are understandable; for the thought of a neverending agony of rational beings fully realizing their distressing plight is so appalling that it exceeds comprehension. But all objections are based on the false principle that it is proper and reasonable to make human sentiments and judgments the measure of God’s essence and activity.”

    “This is the case in particular with those who centend that an everlasting punishment of a part of mankind does not agree with the unity of God’s world plan, or that it is compatible neither with divine love nor with divine justice, who accordingly substitute for eternal damnation eventual salvation by gradual improvement in the next life, or an immediate or later annihilation of the wicked. Against such views we must maintain the general principle that God’s essence, attributes and actions EXCEED our comprehension, that we can therefore NOT know ‘a priori’ but only from God’s revelation in His Word, what agrees or conflicts with God’s essence and attributes. The nature of eternal damnation consist in eternal banishment from the sight of God or, in other words, in being forever excluded from communion with God…To illustrate the terrible agony setting in with this banishment from the sight of God, the dogmatician points to the agony of the fish removed from its elements. But there is this difference; the fish which is removed from its elements soon dies, whereas the man who is banished from communion with God, must by God’s judgment live on, “is guilty of eternal judgment.” (Mark 3:29).

    “Seventh-day Adventist would do well to heed Dr. Pieper’s observations a well as the testimony of the Christian Church generally for the last 2,000 years. But most important, they should heed the teachings of the Word of God, that the ‘soul’ of man, whether regenerate or unregenerate, EXIST after death of the body. The justice of God makes everlasting punishment for the unregenerate, and everlasting life for the saved, to be two sides of one coin – God’s JUSTICE and God’s LOVE. We believe the Bible clearly teaches that there is neither authority nor warrant for the doctrine of ‘conditional immortality’ and annihilation. God grant in the fulness of His wisdom that none of His childen will persist in setting up their standards as the criterion to determine His perfect righteousness. It is my opinion that Seventh-day Adventists have done just this; first by predicating that a God of love would NOT eternally punish a conscious being, and second by attempting to force the Scriptures into their frame of thought, while seeming to IGNORE context, hermeneutics and exegesis. Their fellow Christians can only pray that they may soon be led to embrace the historic position of the Church, which is the antithesis of the ‘sleep of the soul’ and the ‘annihilation’ of the wicked.” (Ibid., pp. 456-459) emphasis added.

    Again, we see God’s Word, rightly divided, by sound exegesis and biblical hermeneutics, which MUST never be subjected to the fancy, subjective thoughts of finite beings, imposing their own fallible, extremely limited concepts, on His absolute Righteousness and Justice!


  7. I read the Advocate earlier today, and I came across an article which describes some of

    what we have been discussing here.

    The article speaks of the commandments, and it says that the commandments are still

    relevant today. The writer in order to support his argument quotes a number of verses but i will focus on Mat 5 17:19, because it is more commonly used.

    Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to

    destroy, but to fulfil.
    Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle

    shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach

    men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and

    teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    The writer focuses on the the following “Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one

    tittle shall in no wise pass from the law”. I would have to agree with the writer at this

    point because it is quite clear. The writer, however, did not take into consideration the

    surrounding verses in this passage. The operative phrase when all is considered is “Till

    all be fulfilled”

    The question should then be asked when will all be fulfilled that the law should pass away?

    Jesus also gave the answer to this in Mat 5:17 “I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil”.

    So with the coming of Jesus all was fuflfilled, and only then could the law pass away. For

    if Jesus did not come to fulfil the law, then the law would stay in place until heaven and earth pass.

    Again a misintrepretation which can manifest when one doesn’t take the word of God as a whole.

    To go further if one was to believe that all ten commandments were still in place for us

    today, then this would contradict Romans 7 which state the commandments are dead. But as we discussed earlier were replaced by to the two great commandments.


  8. @Anonymous, The Ten Commandments were never abolished by Jesus, rather, He did not come to destroy them, “…but to FULFIL” (Matt.5:17b). And this He did perfectly, as NO man, but Him KEPT them perfectly, thus fulfilling the righteousness of the Law.

    Hence, Jesus said: “On these TWO COMMANDMENTS (Loving God FIRST, and your neighbour as youself) hang ALL the Law and the Prophets.”(Matt.22: 37-40) emphasis added.

    Jesus’ words are confirmed by Paul:

    “Owe no man anything, but to LOVE one another: For he that loveth another HATH FULFILLED THE LAW” (Rom 13: 8) emphasis added.

    The salient point in Paul’s discourse, IS, that he mentions 5 of the Ten Commandments, as examples, and then alludes to the OTHER 5 Commandments, “And if there by any OTHER COMMANDMENTS…’ obviously the other 5, with NO specific mention AT ALL with reference to the 4th, the Sabbath, why not? Because:

    “Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: Therefore LOVE is the FULFILLING of THE LAW.”

    As I posted earlier up in this thread, the word rendered FULFILLED is from the Greek word ‘pleroo’ which means ‘to make FULL, and when used as a task or a course of action, ‘To fully perform. As Dr. Wuest brings out, ‘The verb is in the perfect tense, and the translation could read:

    “The whole Law stands fully obeyed.”

    Therefore, as Dr. Walter Martin correctly says:

    “The Christian stand under ‘the perfect law of liberty’ which enables him to ‘FULFIL’ the righteousness of the Law (Commandments, ALL TEN) by the imperative of LOVE.”


  9. @Zoe

    I’ll take another look. Thanks.


  10. Zoe

    Given what you posted above (viz the Ten Commandments were not abolished), are we not obligated to still keep the Sabbath?


  11. My last post was at January 31, 2010 at 2:05 PM

    Another person is also using anonymous. Any further post by myself will take on a unique name in order to prevent confusion.


  12. Oh well

    Now, when I talked to God I knew he’d understand
    He said, “Stick by me and I’ll be your guiding hand
    But don’t ask me what I think of you
    I might not give the answer that you want me to”


  13. Forum : This is controversial!
    As the pornstar said I need three men
    like zoe, gp and dick together at the same time to feel fulfilled and nice and satisfied
    p.s why did god invent the orgasm?
    – so we know when to stop


  14. @Zoe

    Here is what I pulled from the Contemporary English Version of the Bible:

    Mat 5:17 Don’t suppose that I came to do away with the Law and the Prophets. I did not come to do away with them, but to give them their full meaning.
    Mat 5:18 Heaven and earth may disappear. But I promise you that not even a period or comma will ever disappear from the Law. Everything written in it must happen.
    Mat 5:19 If you reject even the least important command in the Law and teach others to do the same, you will be the least important person in the kingdom of heaven. But if you obey and teach others its commands, you will have an important place in the kingdom.

    I also believe Jesus was not just referring to the Ten Commandments (moral laws) alone but might have been referring to the ceremonials laws as well.

    Here is why. As I read on in Mat 5 I realized that Jesus went on to speak of these laws to which he spoke:

    Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:…(moral law)
    Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:…(moral law)
    Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:…(ceremonial law)
    Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:…(ceremonial law)
    Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:…(ceremonial law)
    Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy… (ceremonial law)

    Therefore if the ceremonial laws have passed then the moral laws have done the same.


  15. n.b. I did not mean my previous statement
    in a gay way


  16. OK gotya now Zoe

    You say eye for an eye..etc. is N.T. GOD’s word.

    Irrefutable exegesis.

    Tough shit Haiti.


  17. @Anonymous Jan 31, @2:10PM

    Go and read over carefully what I posted Jan 31, @1:48PM, exactly what Jesus and Paul said re fulfilling the Law, the Ten Commandments, and see if Jesus or Paul mentioned the Sabbath!

    @Straight Talk, no my boy, ya got it all wrong!

    You must always read the preceding and following verses to get the ‘context’ hear Jesus properly!

    “Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for any eye (Exo.21: 24; Lev. 24:20; Deut. 19:21) and a tooth for a tooth: BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, That ye resist not evil: BUT whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, TURN to him the other also.” (Matt. 5: 38,39) emphasis added.

    OK gotya Straight Talk!!!


  18. Zoe

    read Roman 13:8 again and again! I still don’t get your point. Those commandments mentioned i.e. against adultery, murder, stealing and coveting one’s neighbors’ property can be followed by loving one’s fellow man. The other commandments relate to our duty to God and so it appears are still obligatory. I notice that Paul in Romans 14 anticipated people who would wish to condemn those who in sincerity hold certain days special or have certain dietary habits.

    btw weren’t you and Dictionary proponents of the concept of a “just war” which seems to contravene Matt. 5: 38,39.?


  19. Mis-understanding, mis-interpretation and confusion by just a few on a little blog……imagine the world.


  20. @Anonymous, Please note carefully, that Paul states:

    “Owe no man anything, but to love one another; for he that loveth another hath FULFILLED (How much of the Law?) THE LAW.” (Rom. 12: 8).

    Paul does not state, just a part of The Commandments, he says ‘…THE LAW.’

    The definite article (to) preceeds the Gk. word for Law (nomos).

    Again, Paul says:

    “For (How much of the Law?) ALL THE LAW is *fulfilled* in one word, even in this: thou shalt LOVE thy neighbour as thyself.” (Gal. 5:14)

    ‘Even in this’ (en toi). Just the article with ‘en’ “in the” but it points at the quotation from Leviticus 19:18. Paul uses here a striking paradox by urging obedience to the law, against which he has been arguing, BUT, this is the moral law, as proof of the *new* LOVE and life. As is seen in Romans 13:8, precisely as Jesus did in Matthew 22:40. (Word Pictures in The New Testament, Vol. IV, p.311) emphasis added.

    If the keeping of the 4th Commandment, the Sabbath was obligatory on the New Testament Church, do you think Jesus and Paul would have said NOTHING specifically about such observance? Hardly!!! Rather they both summarize ALL the Law and the Prophets by, the imperative of LOVING God, and your neighbour as yourself! That DOES NOT require any particular day, it is to be done EVERY DAY of the WEEK, when this is done ALL the LAW stands FULFILLED!

    Rest IS NOT in a day, it IS in the Person of The Lord Jesus Christ! Seven days a week!

    Further, Dictionary and me, stressed the difference between Matthew 5: 38,39, which is dealing with the *individual* turning the cheek, and Paul’s discourse in Romans 13: 1-7, in relation to Government, God ordained civil authority, to bear the Sword:

    “For he (civil rulers) is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is EVIL, be AFRAID; for he (civil authority) beareth NOT the sword in vain: for he (civil authotity) is the minister OF GOD, a revenger to execute *wrath* upon him that doeth evil.” (Romans 13: 4) emphasis added.

    I trust this will clear up any confusion you may have on these matters!


  21. OK Zoe

    will ponder some more. One for road as “they” say; what do you believe should be the Christian individual’s response to a violent civil authority that is wrongfully doing harm to that person or to others?

    will read your response, tomorrow.


  22. “See me and don’t know me yet you passing Judgement”โ€ฆ strong line
    righteous lyrics

    Passing Judgement
    โœ“ Dancehall
    โœ“ Reggae
    โœ“ Rockers
    โœ“ DJ


  23. Passing Judgement *
    garnet silk


  24. Sorry I’m having a bad link day today :
    Passing Judgement
    * (x2)


  25. Re: Colonised Planet 5
    Shikasta
    From the book jacket:
    The Devil’s supreme achievement is that nobody believes in him. There is a Deity, certainly, but one to be seen within the terms H.G. Wells suggested, that when man cries out his little gimme, gimme, gimme, it is as if a leveret snuggled up to a lion on a dark night. The Old Testament and other sacred literatures of the world may not, after all, be superseded rubbish. These are some of the old ideas Doris Lessing uses in her new and audacious history of the earth. It could be called a stars eye view of things, energetically encompassing millions of years of evolution from the time of lifes beginnings in the warm swamps to mans near-extinction in the Third – and last – World War, soon to be upon us. This war is Shammats (the Devils) victory, but also his defeat; optimism can be defined as the ability to believe that one percent of mankind may survive the wrath to come for a new start under the guidance of The Great Ones who bide Their Times. They watch, and wait, and monitor and adjust human development – employing, for instance, a judicious introduction of celestial genes in crucial epochs, or a supply of Messengers and Technicians whose task it is to warn and to instruct.


  26. @Anonymous Feb 1, 2010 12:31AM

    Regarding any civil authority, (Government) who is ill-treating its citizens, and they are such civil authorities, the Christian must not condone such behaviour, as his first alligence is to God, as God established and upholds the principle of government, even though some governments do not fulfill His desire.


  27. Seventh-day Adventism.

    The Sabbath, the Lord’s Day, and the Mark of the Beast.

    Dr. Walter Martin, as usual, does a sound refutation to the SDA church on this issue.

    “Certainly the most distinctive doctrine promulagated by the Seventh-day Adventist denomination, and one of the two from which they derive their name, is the Seventh-day Sabbath. How Adventists came to hold the Sabbath as the true day of worship, and why they continue to champion it and jealously URGE it upon all who worship on Sunday, provides the key to understanding their psychological and theological motivations.”

    1. The Sabbath or the Lord’s Day?

    “Seventh-day Adventists from the beginning have always attempted to equate the Sabbath with the Lord’s Day. Their principle method for accomplishing this is to link Mark 2:28 with Revelation 1:10, and thus to undercut one of the strongest arguments against their position, i.e., the Lord’s Day as opposed to Sabbath observance.”

    “The reason that since “the Son of Man is Lord also of the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27, 28), when John says he “was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day (Revelation 1:10), the Sabbath and the Lord’s Day must be the same! The weakness of their position is that they base their argument on an English translation instead of on the Greek original. When one reads the second chapter of Mark and the first chapter of Revelation in Greek, he sees that there IS NO such interpretation inherent in the grammatical structure. The Greek of Mark 2:28 clearly indicates that Christ DID NOT MEAN that the Sabbath was His ‘possession’ (which Adventists would like to establish); rather, He was saying that as Lord of ALL He could do AS HE PLEASED on the Sabbath. The Greek IS most explicit here.”

    “Nothing could be clearer from both CONTEXT and grammar. In Revelation 1:10, the Greek is not the genitive of possession, which it would have to be in order to make ‘te-kuriake’ (the Lord’s) agree with ‘hemera’ (day). John DID NOT mean that the Lord’s Day was the Lord’s possession, BUT, rather, that it WAS the day dedicated to Him by the early church, NOT in accordance with Mosaic law, BUT, in obedience to our Lord’s commandment of LOVE.”

    “We may certainly assume that if the Sabbath had meant so much to the writers of the New Testament; and if, as Adventists insist, it was so widely observed during the early centuries of the Christian Church, John and the other writers of Scripture, would have equated it with the Lord’s Day, the first day of the week. Scripture and history testify that they DID NOT, and Adventists have, therefore, little justification for their Sabbatarianism.”

    A. Testimony of the Fathers.

    ‘The Church Fathers provide a MASS of evidence that the first day of the week, (Sunday) not the seventh, IS the Lord’s Day. Some of this evidence is here submitted for the readers consideration. In company with the *overwhelming* majority of historians and scholars, we believe that not only the New Testament, but the following citations REFUTE Sabbatarianism. We have yet to see any systematic answer to what the Christian Church always believed.” (Kingdom of the Cults, pp. 459, 460) emphasis added.

    Before citing the early Church Father’s as given by Martin, let me STRESS emphatically, as noted by the DATES, that these early Church Father’s WERE NOT part of what eventually emerged with Constantine (circa 315-325) as the official State/church, Roman Catholicism, which DID NOT exist for the first 300 hundred years of the Apostolic (A.D 33-100) Church and the immediate Post Apostolic Chruch (A.D. 100-315).

    1. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, in the year 110, wrote: “If, then, those who walk in the ancient practices attain to newness of hope, NO longer observing the Sabbath, but fashioning their lives after the LORD’s DAY on which our life also ROSE through Him, that we may be found disciples of Jesus Christ, our only teacher.”

    2. Justin Martyr (100-165): “And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together in one place and memoirs of the Apostles or the writings of the Prophets are read, as long as time permits…Sunday IS the day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness in MATTER, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the SAME day, ROSE from the dead.”

    3. The Epistle of Barnabas (between 120-150): “Your new moons and your sabbaths I cannot endure’ (Isaiah 1:13). you perceive how He speaks: Your present sabbaths are NOT acceptable to me but that which I had made in giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, (Sunday) that with joyfulness, a day in which Jesus ROSE from the dead.”

    4. Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons (about 178): “The mystery of the Lord’s resurrection may not be celebrated on any other day than the Lord’s Day.”

    5. Bardaisan (born 154): “Wherever we be, all of us are called by the one name of the Messiah, namely Christians, and upon one day which IS the first day of the week (Sunday) we assemble ourselves together and on the appointed days we abstain from food.”

    6. Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage (200-257): “The Lord’s Day is both the first and the eighth day.”

    7. Eusebius (about 315): “The churches throughout the rest of the world OBSERVE the practice that has prevailed from the Apostles tradition until the present time, so that it would be not proper to terminate our fast on any other day, but the *resurrection* DAY of our Saviour. Hence, there were synods and convocations of our bishops on this question, and they unanimously drew up an ecclesiastical decree which they communicated to chruches in all places- that the mystery of the Lord *resurrection* should be celebrated on NO other than the LORD’s DAY.”

    8. Peter, Bishop of Alexandria (about 300): “We keep the Lord’s Day as a day of joy, because of Him who ROSE thereon.”

    9. Didache of the Apostles (about 70-75): “On the Lord’s own day, gather yourselves together and break bread and give thanks.”

    10. The Epistle of Pliny ( about 112, addressed to the Emporer Trajan): “they [the Christians] affirmed…that the whole of their crime or error was that they had been wont to meet together on a fixed day before daylight and to repeat among themselves in turn a hymn to Christ as to a god and to bind themselves by an oath (sacramentum)…; these things duly done, it had been their custom to disperse and to meet again to take food – of an ordinary and harmless kind. Even this they had ceased to do after my edict, by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden the existence of societies.” (Ibid., pp. 460, 461) emphasis added.

    As Martin said, the Adventist have NEVER offered any answer to the historic facts, that the Sabbath was no longer observed by the early Church, BUT, that, the writings of the early Church Father’s confirmed the Biblical position re honouring our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, on the Lord’s Day, the first day of the week, Sunday.

    Martin goes on to say:

    “Thus it appears that from Apostolic and patristic times, the Christians Chruch observed the Lord’s Day or the first day of the week; further, the Jewish Sabbath, in the words of Clement of Alexandria (about 194) was ‘nothing more than a working day.”

    “In their zeal to establish the authority of the Sabbath, Adventists either reject contrary evidence as unauthentic ( and so conflict with the preponderance of scholastic opinion), OR, they ignore the testimony of the early Church.Although they seem unaffected by the evidence, the fact remains that the Christian Church HAS both Apostolic and historical support for observing the Lord’s Day, in place of the Sabbath.” (Ibid., 461) emphasis added.

    More a bit later on, confirming the mountain of evidence against the Adventists, stubborn resistence of Biblical and historic facts!


  28. Doo wap โ‚
    Super Soul Sure Shot โ˜ž
    National Breakout โ€
    High on the Charts โˆด
    Tipped for the top โŠฅ
    Derrick Hariott – Eighteen with a Bullet wid DubPlate. LOVERS RIDDIM More Info Laters โˆด
    Powpowpowpow โˆต
    Big Tuneeeeeeeeeeeeeeee_ โ—Š

    โ€ป โ€ป โ€ป โ€ป โ€ป โ€ป โ€ป โ€ปโ€ป โ€ป โ€ป โ€ป โ€ป โ€ป โ€ป โ€ป

    Iโ€™m 18 with a bullet
    Got my finger on the trigger
    And Iโ€™m gonna pull it
    Iโ€™ve picked your click now
    Iโ€™m the son of a gun
    So pull it now baby girl
    We gonna have big fun
    I may be an oldie
    But Iโ€™m a goody too
    Iโ€™ll last for ever
    And Iโ€™ll be good to you
    Oh yes I will little girl

    Eighteen with a Bullet wid DubPlate


  29. why is kiki posting these stupid comments?


  30. Curtis Mayfield : Undeground (Demo Version) Lyrics

    Familiar music, familiar sound
    Does mute your thoughts for the underground
    Lonely sight for any turning light
    Future prophecy for the [Incomprehensible]

    There’ll be equal stay and equal play
    The underground where none can betray

    The underground
    The underground
    The underground

    They’all all turn black so who’s to know
    As a matter of fact, colour, creed and breed must go
    There’ll be no light, so there can be no sight
    And you’ll judge your fellow men on the stand
    By what is right

    Familiar music, familiar sound
    Does mute your thoughts for the underground

    The underground
    The underground
    The underground


  31. @Bajan Atheist: “why is kiki posting these stupid comments?

    Because it is to their economic advantage.

    The more links you have from a popular site into your own, the more serious your site will be considered by the autonomous and automated Search Engines.

    Kiki et al knows this.

    BU.David hasn’t yet figured out the agenda. Or they have, but they are OK with it happening (or don’t have the time to stop it, even though it could be stopped simply).

    Kiki isn’t the only one, BTW.


  32. chrissy made a wrong presumption again
    who is ‘they’
    where’s this alleged money?
    p.s check out the lyrics for so called hidden agendas
    or learn the lyrics and sing along if you like reggae soul blues jazz et al
    or ignore it

    This Train


  33. @kiki: “chrissy made a wrong presumption again

    Possible… But then again, possibly not…

    @kiki: “who is โ€˜theyโ€™

    Everyone who comes on BU and provides copious numbers of links in every post to other sites.

    @kiki: “whereโ€™s this alleged money?

    You are confusing Economics with Money…

    Economics deals with anything which can be traded…

    Including Ideas.

    @Kiki… So, then, from my above…

    Can you please tell us all why you are so very motivated to come onto popular threads here on BU, and present submissions which explicitly link to your Blog?

    Please do explain your motivation.

    Many are interested.


  34. this thread was that not popular
    so stop bigging yourself up too much again and again


  35. Chris
    Check your facts
    I owe David 7 clicks
    Referrer :
    bajan.wordpress.com/2010/01/24/two-alโ€ฆ
    Views : 7

    but I believe all of those views were me
    just checking and listening

    please calrify your position mr defender of low rates


  36. sorry s/b
    clarify*


  37. @kiki: “…this thread was that not popular

    336 comments (at the moment of this post by me) is not an unpopular thread.

    @kiki: “I owe David 7 clicks

    Which means that you’re “up” seven clicks.

    Please note that the Search Engines will not be recorded in this metric. But they will be considering all the links…

    @kiki… I ask again.

    Please explain… What is your motivation?


  38. Chris
    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
    Screaming Target

    – Some people like music
    – Others are boffins who like to intelectualise
    – But you should also appreciate the message in music which is a lot cleverer than you think

    p.s. this is one of the least serious threads on BU wouldn’t you say as a responsible accomplished mature and ever so wise and intelligent superior
    debater in your mind would you not agree


  39. when I go to court and tribunals
    I don’t publish it on the world wide web
    I just do it
    and win


  40. i.e. fight to win the most basic of rights
    which should have been given in the first place
    so it’s not really winning
    but it’s not losing either


  41. Too deep Kiki….too deep!!


  42. @kiki…

    Let me please answer your above with one simple link:

    I hope you will “get it”.


  43. White protestant (european) religions are the only ones (religions) that don’t have dancing as part of their religious celebrations
    why?

    similar to many of the messages of freedom for the black …. attempt to ban large rave dance events featuring music with “repetitive beats”. …


  44. Chris,
    At least you tried to lower the rates
    thanks

    p.s. you probably won’t appreciate this link either.. I made it myself
    โ˜ž hippy boy


  45. @kiki et al…

    Sadly, we’ve been taught that it is OK to not answer questions — just keep talking…

    The simple won’t notice. And the simple outnumber those who think. (Map the “electorate” into this domain.)

    I personally call it “The New Dark Ages”.

    I might write a book on this subject….


  46. You starting to sound like D now Chris…..

    Rolling on floor laughing my ass off.
    ๐Ÿ˜‰


  47. @Technician…

    LOL..

    BTW, QED.


  48. [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1moiym6-Nk&hl=en_US&fs=1&]


  49. R.I.P. Syd
    You are sorely missed.

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