Submitted by Crusoe (as a comment on the Haiti We Are Sorry blog
You list some good ideas for the structural retransformation of Haiti [Responding to Commenter Dictionary on the Haiti We Are Sorry blog]. Each in of themselves they do not depend on improved education but do depend on improved technical training (farming etc). However, for all, the long-term success of those initiatives individually and collectively leading to a successful Haiti will certainly also depend on improved education, if as we have been informed, the literacy level is so low.
This has two implications.
Firstly, immediately after initial search, rescue, medical, temporary (short and medium term) and security issues have been addressed as priority, the early reformation must include an immediate education programme, for adult and youth, such that the transformation of Haiti can begin with the active participation of her people, not as ‘serfs’ but as active individuals and communities with an understanding of the reasoning behind the methods and the aim of the methods.
I must add, that ‘transformation’ in this context is not meant to refer to bringing Haiti to the same philosophical outlook as anyone other specific group. In this context it is meant to refer to bringing Haiti to a level of self-capability and self-determination. Now, to expect say a three or four year ‘crash course’ in education and technical skills may seem either impossible or unrealistic, but unfortunately, if this is not done as one of the foundations of the rebuilding (in the context of not only structural, but as a nation of people), than all else may eventually prove futile.
This is obviously along the lines of the old phrase of teaching a man to fish instead of giving him the fish. Merely putting up structures, farms etc may certainly alleviate some misery, but while in the short term foreign contractors etc may gain much from the aid given for this purpose, the long-term goal should be to have Haitians and not only elite, but the everyday Haitian, benefit from money flows and thus create an independent people and a vibrant economy.
It is my view therefore Caricom leaders, should address the education of Haiti, as a priority, as much a priority as any other redevelopment effort.
To reinforce a point, the initial effort must not only be to set up an improved schooling system, but implement as an interim measure, an ’emergency education programme’, with the help of international authorities and the Haitian authorities. If one wants a long-term Haiti, this is essential.
We must give thanks yet again, that Errol Barrow saw the necessity of education as a developmental tool. And, we must forever resist ANY attempts to take free education from Barbadians. Indeed, those of us who wish for an improved world, must seek the furtherance of a sound even if basic education, for all peoples, as a necessity for development.
1,421 responses to “The Reconstruction And Transformation Of Haiti: A Global-Moral Imperative”
@ Zoe…..
Can you explain these 2 statements by you, they seem to contradict each other.
1. This adherence to the ‘Oral’ tradition, the Talmud, which flew into the face of God’s Word, Torah, the Commandments, is such a striking parallelism, and analogous to what Roman Catholicism has done with the Word of God, the Bible, by her so-called ‘Sacred Tradition’ which contravene, contradicts, and invalidates the Truth of God’s Word.
2. BTW, I have proof from the Torah and the Babylonian Talmud, wonderfully exegeted by Rabbi Kohen, that ‘Desert Storm’ 1991 and 2003, and the fall of Iraq, (Babylon) to the exact DAY, were all prophecied thousnds of years before. Ya want to hear about it? Mind boggling accuracy from God’s Word, backed up from the Jewish Talmud!
@the hood: “I once heard of this unbeliever (atheist) traveling, on a plane…
To counter this undocumented claim of one…
Let me please bring forward the example of Vladimir Komarov, the commander of Soyuz 1.
Because of the incompetence of “those who know”, he *knew* he was going to die.
He said goodbye to his wife over the radio link, and then calmly read off his instruments’ readings all the way down, impacting the earth at an estimated 140 km/h…
My point?
We all have our own beliefs. But at the end of the day (read: at the end of our lives), what matters most is what we /each/ can do to maximize our individual upside to /everyone/, wherever we happen to find ourselves.
@the hood
Let me repeat. You have a belief. From that point of view, you do not have truth. You believe it to be true and you believe so strongly. If I was in a plane about to crash, the last thing on my mind would be Jesus Christ or God. The only thing that would be on my mind is survival and if that can’t happen, too bad.
I am not an atheist because I do not believe that there are no gods. However, I do not believe in your God as you claim “him” to be, “HE is not my Creator”. My Creator is clearly not a he, she or it, yet the Creator is he, she and it.
There is nothing stopping you from believing and having faith, but no crapaud pipe ain’t smoking. That is a line to keep you and those of your belief in check. You do not have me in there at all.
Next thing, because a person does not believe in God does not make them an atheist. I am not sure what an atheist is, ask Chris Halsall. He claims to be one. What I do not believe is that all those who do not believe in christianity are doomed. There are many who believe in their religion as strongly as you do in your christianity and the name Jesus Christ is never mentioned. They have their God and as you would like to be respected for your religion, so should you respect others for theirs.
From the point of view that you have no proof. From the point of view that even the Jews that were there at the supposed time of Christ are divided on whether or not there was a Christ; From the point of view that there never has been any proof of Christ or the events in the Bible, both old and new. You have nothing on anybody. You conform to Christianity and its teachings; therefore they aplly to those who believe and have faith in these things.
Freedom of religion and conscience deems that each person is entitled to their religion and that no religion will persecute others; with statements like, “Crapaud gine smoke yuh pipe”. You believe that, I don’t
Respect Due!
@ROK: “I am not sure what an atheist is, ask Chris Halsall. He claims to be one.
Oh, please ROK. Give me a break!!!
I claim to be an agnostic. I very particularly do *not* claim to be an atheist.
I have said here on BU more than once that no true thinker can be an atheist because the mathematics don’t allow it.
@the hood………….You just started something bigger than yourself! Did you know that the founder of your religion, like the JWs was a bid-time member of the illuminati?
My alias has NOTHING to do with hope. The only thing I probably have in common with christians is that we share the same planet. I have absolutely no hope in their beliefs.
@Chris
My humblest apologies. Not sure why I thought you claimed to be an atheist. Agnostic it is. Well hood don’t have anybody to ask.
The only thing I probably have in common with christians is that we share the same planet. I have absolutely no hope in their beliefs.
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Oh Lord now (pun intended) LOL! Keep it going Hopi! LOL
@ ROK
Ok ROKie, I totally respect your views. However, I take note that, unlike some other posters here (no need to call names) you don’t seem to have taken an attitude of “lording” it over me as some people say.Capiche? I did not intend it to sound in any way obnoxious. My apologies if I sounded so. Actually, I was just poking a little “fatigue” (T&T slang) at Hopi.
I fully believe in freedom to worship what, where and how one wishes so to do. So, can I take it that we understand each other?
The creator has a master plan, peace and happiness for every man. The creator has a working plan, peace and happiness for every man. The creator makes but one demand, happiness through all the land.
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What is a Rasta? What is a dread? What is the difference between them?
@JC………….Now!Now! You looking to start trouble? Just watch ‘god’s’ mouthpiece come on here and start spitting out their vile SSS bilge.
earlier post should have read ‘big-time.’
@ Hopi
So, what have I now started? After getting beaten all over my body with blows from head to toe by the “BU trinity” (with the little terrier, Anon, at my heels) I guess I should be able to withstand most anything else. Don’t you think so? LOL. Peace my brother/sister (which is it, I can’t seem to recall now?).
@ ROK
Eh, eh ROKie, buh wuh yuh tryin’ to do wid Chris H? Yuh bess look out or the “BU trinity” gine send some lashes your way too. ROFL.
@the hood et al
So you know, ROK and I argue about almost everything just about every time we interact.
The time before this, the argument was about a mathematical equation. (I proved, via deduction, that he was right and I was wrong — I was able to derive his equation from mine.)
@the hood……does it make any difference with you that your earthly founding member was an entrenched member of the illuminati?
@Hopi
Doesn’t turn a hair on my head. So what would you like me to do about it now. He dun DED, over 160 years now!!
You wanna go dig up de body now and put some lashes in it? LOL.
Yeah hood, we got an understanding, but my experience with christians is that the discrimination, stigmatisation and fear-mongering is so ingrained and rampant that the understanding don’t last long. They have tunnel vision when it comes to that.
For example, the label “Atheist” is supposed to be degrading. Then we start hearing about anti-christ and devil worship. Christians are not good at coping with anything that does not run in the same vein as theirs.
Next thing is that when one says “god” christians think they mean the christian god, not realising that there are several other gods of which theirs is but one. So you have no monopoly on the word god.
There is much more which christians can’t really seem to come to grips with. There is a certain fanaticism when it comes to those who claim they believe. They say that they believe, but they truly think it is the absolute truth, when it is not and simply cannot be the truth. It is simply one of many choices of religion that exist in the world today.
@ ROK
Ok ROKie, I have no quarrel with your views. What I say is whatever “rocks your boat”, so be it. Keep on ROKKING, brother.
@hood…………..good to know that doesn’t turn a hair on your head…. but just remember a tree is known by its fruits….Was it the vatican/illuminati who instructed him to start his LDS or was it Jesus Christ and why doesn’t this same Jesus Christ speak to ‘the hood’ and tell him to go start some other religious branch in his name also?
Why the need to proselytize your crapaud theory? This sound just like Zoe’s hellfire and brimstone theory! As a matter of fact I see absolutely no difference between you and the BU trinity’s religious belief. You all worship the same JC don’t you?
Ah religion! One of the most effective tools to divide, control & conquer. Whoever invented it and its sub-sects has got to be a genius.
Peace to you too bro!
Hopi:
I will not further entertain your latest distractive.
( I simply note the policy is the one in official force; with a mandated 20-yr implementation framework, per its set terms of reference. And, if the issue was whether I am competent to construct a serious proposal, the proposal already developed in real time over the course of this thread should suffice to show that I plainly am. Indeed, not only have I constructed such proposals over the years, but I have taught and consulted with others for them to do so. And, on education, I am an experienced education programme/curriculum designer. beyond that, the proposal is on the table for potential partners to discuss how to operationalise it or something like it. As some are now considering.)
Hopi, there is a specific, feasible proposal before this blog. Have you and your ilksomething substantial to say about it, and to warrant on evidence?
If so, do it.
If not, kindly do not resort to further distractions, personalities, and side-tracks. (Especially since you are already — without apology for such a disgraceful outburst, even after many weeks — well beyond the pale of civil discourse with an open call to arson against churches on a racialist anti-Christian slander.)
What is important at this juncture is to focus on something that is feasible and significant that Caricom can do for Haiti. And a programme of Schools of Hope in some form looks on its face a very feasible initiative for that.
Perhaps, it is time for you and your ilk to turn from the antipathy that led you to make little or no positive contribution across the life of this thread, and to waste the opportunity to have participated in the development of a serious proposal. (As I have noted, I know people who have paid good money to have had such a learning opportunity.)
The day for crabs- in- a- barrel games is over — if there ever was a day in which such behaviour was understandable, if not justifiable.
G’day
Dictionary
PS: Onlookers, sigh. On seeing the pattern of loaded, antipathy- and often slander- laced assertions above, I cannot but note as an advisory that ROK, above is resorting to turnabout accusations, after he has indulged in the slanders that were the context for Hopi’s outburst. Moreover, when he was confronted with the corrective evidence on his assertions that trace to the now outdated history of religions school on the alleged pagan roots of the Christian faith and the alleged lack of archaeological and external textual corroboration, he simply doubled down on accusations, sadly up to and including playing the Hitler card. TH has of course desperately tried to ignore the evidence presented above from CARM’s citations of authentic LDS sources, on the roots of the claims he is advocating and using to try to dismiss that which is far better founded. [Notice, onlookers, how none of he above have stepped up to the plate to address the just linked — again — on the merits substantially. (That should tell you something.)] In each case it is evident as well that there is a need for the just identified commenters to address seriously the duty to seek, warrant and acknowledge truth that is knowable and accessible, while being fair to those who have sought to correct their errors — precisely to reduce the amount of confusion and misinformation that are spreading through the blogosphere.
BTW, There are about six different Atheistic views; Practical Antheism; Dogmatic Atheism; Vitual Atheism; Critical Atheism; Classical Atheism; and Rationalistic Atheism.
Regarding the Agnostic View, Agnosticism holds that one cannot know whether God exist or not. It neither denies nor affirms the existence of God. A Gnostic is “a knowing one”, who says “I know all”. An Agnostic is one who says “I cannot know” or “I know nothing”. This view holds that we cannot have knowledge as to the existence or nature of God and the universe. It is willful ignorance. [Acts. 17:23)
The Atheistic and Agnostic views are not tenable. Both are contrary to man’s deepest convictions that there IS a God to whom man IS accountable. They are the attempts of man to escape from a God they know exist.
In summary:
The Atheist says there is no God, and thus sets himself up as God.
The Agnostic says he cannot know whether God exist, or not, thus makes willful ignorance of his God.
@Dic………Oh the beauty of the equivocal english language that allows those of the pomp & stance ilk to talk in circles. You constantly refer to arson of churches for which I will NEVER apologise. So you can repeat and threepeat that, it does not make a dimes difference to me. Just watch these same churches combust and implode because their foundations are built on ‘fallacies.’ As I said before I do not care how many policies you post here regarding the reconstruct of Haiti. What is your immediate aid to the Haitian people? Tomorrow is not promised to any of us. Crabs-in-a- barrel my foot.
Come and show your fruits Jan 13, 2011 or will that too be dependent upon your above 2 stools with a 20 yr implementaion framework?
@Zoe: “The Atheistic and Agnostic views are not tenable. Both are contrary to man’s deepest convictions that there IS a God to whom man IS accountable. They are the attempts of man to escape from a God they know exist.
I humbly argue that you are mostly likely wrong.
For example, the “strong agnostic” view argues that we cannot know all because we simple stupid humans cannot know all, and we never will.
The “weak agnostic” view argues that we don’t yet know enough to answer the questions, but that we can keep trying.
@Zoe…
With respect, please stop telling us all what you claim is absolutely true.
We know better….
@Dictionary, “The day for crabs-in-a-barrel games is over- if there ever was a day in which such behavior was understandable, if not justifiable.”
Could not agree with you more. But, there will be, unfortunately and sadly so,as is glaringly evident on BU, with the *SSS* clan, fully operative, maintaining vehemently, their Status Quo, as crabs-in-a-barrel, DEAD/alive!!!
Where there IS *DARKNESS* which IS nothingness; there can be no LIGHT, which IS something!!!
@CH, did you by any chance mis-read what I posted, “A Gnostic, NOT an Agnostic, is “a knowing one’, who says “I know it all.”
BTW, Truth by definition IS absolute, and my worldview, is based on this premise to a degree of ‘moral’ certainity, confirmed by ‘Logical Consistency’ ‘Empirical Adequancy’ and ‘Experiential Relevance’ over the entire range of human history, that can be denied, BUT, cannot be logically refuted!
@Zoe…
Let’s approach this from a slightly different angle…
Would you agree or disagree with the statement that the Palestinians have most likely been repressed?
@ Zoe…..
I realise that when ever I ask what seems to be hard questions, you avoid but have time to dwell on others or wait for someone like GP to answer.
You made 2 comments which seem to contradict each other, can you explain?
You want to use the Talmud to emphasise something said by a Rabbi.
You have stated that the same Talmud takes away from the Bible.
Is this Rabbi a believing Jew as GP described?
Otherwise he would have to be a non believing Jew which goes against you teachings and beliefs.
Therefore how can you use a Talmud to strengthen a case by a Rabbi?
Confusion again.
‘Where there IS *DARKNESS* which IS nothingness; there can be no LIGHT, which IS something!!!’ Now what kind of assbackwards christian ‘reasoning’ is this? How can darkness be nothingness and light be something when the two are nothing more than variations of the same thing?
@Zoe
Now that Hopi brought it up, I have something for you to consider. Effectively, what is light for you is darkness for a bat and what is darkness to you is light to a bat. You say that darkness is nothing, but it is something to a bat and many other nocturnal creatures.
Onlookers:
A few remarks on points of note, in the hope that we can return to the substantial focus, on help for Haiti and serious proposals towards that:
1] Darkness vs light
Darkness is what happens when light is absent or excluded. It is an absence not a thing in itself.
And, bats navigate in the dark by sound (i.e. sonar). As do whales etc.
2] Truth, knowledge of and duty to the truth
No-one has bettered the insight that noted that “truth says of what is, that it is and of what is not, that it is not.” That which does so, on all material points in a situation, is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth on the matter. that is, the absolute — pure, undiluted, unadulterated, untainted — truth.
But, in a world in which the first such truth is: error exists, — which is undeniably true on pain of self-referential absurdity — we need to warrant claimed truth.
So, we move from pure, undiluted — absolute — truth [the ideal standard] to objective truth, which we may discover and test, thus (with whatever provisionality obtains) warrant.
Thence, the warranted credible truths approach to building a sound worldview.
(Note, onlookers, already raised here at BU, and ignored by those rushing off to assert their favourite skepticisms and rhetorical agendas. Note above how Hopi is unapologetic again on her call for arson against churches and how she is yet again simply dismissing the challenge posed by the central warranting argument of the Christian worldview that she would dismiss on her own authority as a fabric of fallacies.)
In the end, though,we have a right to our opinions, but a duty to the truth we know or SHOULD know per reasonable standards of warrant. In short, selective hyperskepticism — as has too often been seen here at BU — is not just a self-refuting absurdity of a double standard on warrant, but a failure of duty to the truth.
Also, we see that something can be absolutely true, and something can be well-warranted but unpalatable and dismissed on selectively hyperskeptical objections.
But such will not change our duty to and responsibility for truth we know or should know.
3] re CH: the “strong agnostic” view argues that we cannot know all because we simple stupid humans cannot know all, and we never will. The “weak agnostic” view argues that we don’t yet know enough to answer the questions, but that we can keep trying.
This is of course largely an irrelevancy. It is not in dispute that humans are finite, fallible and often in error.
But, just the last leads to the balancing truth:
The challenge posed to today’s fashionable evolutionary materialism and selective hyperskepticism about the gospel is that:
So also, we would do well to heed the counsel of John Locke in the introduction to his essay on human understanding, Section 5:
G’day
Dictionary
PS: I see a distractive red herring on the plight of the Palestinian Arabs. Unfortunately, it cannot simply be ignored; it needs to be dealt with and removed from distracting us form the real issues we need to deal with. Yes, they are and have long been an oppressed people, largely at the hands of their own leadership and fellow Arabs over these past ninety or so years. A material factor in that has been their refusal to recognise that other peoples with roots in the Middle East have just as much right to be there as they do, and should not be subjected to dehumanising dhimmitude under Islamist ideological law [which in many respects is worse than Apartheid]. Once this keystone problem is addressed, the issues on disputes over specific parcels of land and jurisdiction with the Jews, the Copts, the Kurds, the Chaldean and Assyrian Christians, the Lebanese Christians and even the Persians and Black African Muslim, Animist and Christian peoples, would be settled. But per the relevant ideology they see themselves as having a mandate to rule not only the ME but the world. Until this keystone issue is resolved, disputes, issues and grievances cannot be amicably settled. And to pretend otherwise and refuse to see this side of the issue — whatever sins their neighbours are also guilty of [cf Ezek 36 on the sins of Israel in the words of a key prophet] — is to hide one’s head in the sand.
It is curious that “evolutionary materialism” is an invention of religious people and some sociologists. If one googles the term, up comes Dictionary’s work aka Kariosfocus! This guy is the ultimate Don Quixote fighting windmills.
Ah boy:
Anonny, please lay off the ad hominems game, and deal with substance.
I have simply used a descriptive term, evolutionary materialism, for what others call scientific materialism, or naturalism or physicalism, etc etc. Or even — heights of hubris — “Science.” (Just, I have brought out its amoral implications and inescapable self-referential incoherence. As have many, many others before me. Just, advocates of evolutionary materialist scientism do not usually let us hear the other side of the story, preferring to present their worldview as Science, beyond reasonable dispute for those who believe in a round earth and in heliocentrism. Of course, the earth was known to be a sphere of a known size since Aristotle and Eratosthenes, and heliocentrism is also an ancient view; and epistemologically reconstructions of a remote unobservable past of origins are not to be equated to directly observable facts of he world today.)
FYI, such issues are hardly news, nor is evo mat a new philosophy — and yes PHILOSOPHY, not science. For instance, 360 BC, Plato highlighted that the teaching was immemorial in his day, and its consequences were just as well-known:
Lucretius in his atomistic poem On the nature of things, gives a familiar sounding statement from a supporter of such materialism:
Sounds nice and scientific and even obvious until you ask who is consciously observing, reasoning and drawing conclusions, and why should we take such activities of atoms in motion under chance plus necessity due to whatever historical and genetic accidents have happened seriously.
G’day
D
PS: David, the triage sadly continues, and the problem is compounded by drastic regulations that are for instance making pilots reluctant to fly out victims, lest they face prosecution for kidnapping or human trafficking. I gather, e.g. that several children have died due to delays in the Gov’t permits process.
David, sorry in mod again.
@ the hood, The *god* of Joseph Smith Jr, et al Mormon voices, IS NOT, the Almighty God, of historic divine revelation, as seen in His Word, the Bible.
The ‘Jesus’ of Mormonism IS NOT The Lord Jesus Christ, of the Gospel in NT Scripture; nor is the false concept of the Atonement of Mormonisn, the *Atonement* of Christ in His Word, the Bible.
To use, Orthodox terms, as taken from Historic Christian theology, as you and Mormonisn DO, expressly to DECEIVE unlearned observers, WILL NOT WORK; IT IS A LIE of DECEIT that Mormonisn has crafted, to make YOUR fraudlent, *polytheistic* concept of many *gods* sound like Christian theology.
@Technician, In stating that the ‘Oral’ tradition of the Jewish Talumd, flew into the face of God, just like the Roman Cathlolic so-called ‘sacred tradition’ does, is in the specific context of the Jews, completely ‘missing’ the One and Only Messiah, Jesus Christ.
This Jewish Rabbi, whose book I refer to, while he is not a ‘believer’ by that I mean specifically, that Jesus Christ was/is the Messiah, nevertheless, he brings out in his book, a number of execellent points from the Torah, as well as other OT prophetic books, and the Talmud, that are amazingly accurate, in the fullfilment of the prophecies; the point that apparently is still confusing you, is, that because this Rabbi is not a believer in the Historic Jesus Christ, does NOT prevent him et al, from recognizing certain OT prophecies, that were also spoken about in the Talmudic writings, that have come to past, in this era, exactly as prophecied in God’s Word, in the Old Testament.
I’ll give you some specifics in a few minutes!
Q After all the talk what can we as a region do to ensure we play a role to help Haiti to rise up?
A NOTHING except TALK SOME MORE! AND CRITICIZE OF COURSE!
Q millions and millions of dollars has been raised by the world. Why is a double amputee giving birth in the tent city without any help of relevant food and medical supplies? Isn’t time the Haitian government start to question why despite the global effort its people continue to suffer?
A Because the heart is indeed deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. These features are comming to the fore in this case.
LETS TALK SOME MORE! Cause we cant DO a thing! Hilarious!
“Darkness is what happens when light is absent or excluded. It is an absence not a thing in itself.’” Why don’t you really define it or better yet correct your kool-aid drinker. Here you are trying to negate ROK, when he’s CORRECT in saying that DARKNESS is ‘something of import’ to bats, contrary to Zoe’s nonsense. Isn’t that correct? Why do bats come out at night instead of daylight?
What is TRUTH? Do you know TRUTH or better yet Can you handle TRUTH?
“Of course, the earth was known to be a sphere of a known size since Aristotle and Eratosthenes,” Man have you no shame?
David:
Thanks.
We of the Caribbean through mostly J’ca have done some first responder work.
Now, we need to look at longer term inputs. Haiti has to make the transition form first response and stabilisation to rebuilding and transformative redevelopment.
But that won’t happen unless we plan several moves ahead of the on the ground situation.
Thus the proposal I have put on the table, live, in this blog thread.
D
PS: It seems I am held to have done something “shameful” to have alluded to the recorded fact that Ari on realising that the earth’s shadow on the moon in a lunar eclipse is always circular inferred a spherical earth, and Eratosthenes [Librarian at Alexandria, the Ptolemaic city founded by Gks and named after Alexander], by calculating from shadow lengths at Summer Solstice there and at Syene/Aswan, got a good number for earth circumference. I guess the race — Greek — of the men implicated is not good enough, on the commenter’s track record. Sad.
Materialism is a philosophy that denies the existence of God… juxtaposing any word in front of it (e.g. scientific materialism, evolutionary materialism etc.) does not change that fact. So while evolutionary-materialism is indeed a philosophy, the theory of evolution is most certainly not. Evolution is a science. Belief in evolutionary theory does not make one a materialist.
Yes my track record speaks for itself and from which I will never back down. Before one Greek knew anything about the earth or her circumference AFRICANS/COSMIC MEN had already KNOWN the earth’s circumference. How can the Greeks like christopher columbus dis-cover something that was already known? So yet again your track record speaks for itself as a perpetrator of yet more lies ‘beautifully’ wrapped in fraud. So carry on with your molestation of simple minds!
Onlookers:
Let’s do a little comparison:
H: What is TRUTH? Do you know TRUTH or better yet Can you handle TRUTH?
D, 6 posts before this [and in response to earlier remarks by H]:
In short, sadly but plainly, H indulged herself, yet again, in selectively hyperskeptical dismissal without pausing to seriously look at the issue or the substance on it; starting with a classic and yet common-sensically sound definition of what truth is. {Ari, Metaphysics 1011b 26.]
Just as she and her ilk have yet to make a substantial contribution on the main issue for the thread, responding to Haiti’s needs. (But there were ever so many distractive, dismissive, snide and denigratory comments even as, live, a financially and technically feasible proposal within the exertise and capacity of Caricom was developed.)
So, we know the habitual pattern: crabs- in- a- barrel, clawing one another down instead of working together to build a good future.
Sad, really.
For, this is telling us a lot about our region’s educated classes, and what too many have simply not learned — even as they amassed certificates, diplomas and accolades.
So, we need a fresh beginning.
G’day
D
MME:
Evolution is a very slippery term.
At the so-called micro level is it an empirically anchored explanation of say microbe resistance; but as we look at the expansion into the grand origins narrative often presented in the name of science, more and more of philosophy is loaded in at the beginning of the chain of reasoning. And the challenge to account credibly for the origin of complex functional organisation and associated information is being ducked.
Indeed, in the name of methodological naturalism, the very definition of science is being loaded with materialistic assumptions.
I ask you to consider he remarks by the eminent scientist, Lewontin, which as he notes, reflect a significant fraction of the people who dominate the institutions of science:
Others may put it more subtly, but the same basic message or assumption is ever so often there.
So, Science s being embedded and front loaded with materialism in an evolutionary scheme, from the very definitions that are now taught to children as though they were objective and non- question begging.
But, again, it is time to get back to the proper focus for the thread.
D
PS: Onlookers, note too how I have been able to give you names and a general time [C3 – 2 BC] in which named scholars made particular analyses and calculations to infer to the sphericity and size of the earth. In dismissing, we see only naked assertions from H. which has been quite typical of her rhetorical tactics. It is a well documented fact that Aristotle reasoned from the shadow the earth casts on the moon in a lunar eclipse to its sphericity, and that Eratosthenes used shadow lengths to calculate circumference. Similarly, the objectors to Columbus’ scheme were right that Columbus’ notion of sailing to the orient in 90 days was unsound because they knew this; they just did not know about the continent that was much closer to hand, and for which Columbus had found significant evidence. To dismiss, we see only assertions on a vague priority. Why is that? give us the sound documentation and the results will be duly noted. But, regardless, the achievement of the named scholars is still significant.
@Dictionary… I have to say I personally find it *very* interesting that you et al keep raising “the eminent scientist, Lewontin” in your arguments.
@All…
You might want to read this first-hand account (read: personal experience) with regards to Lewontin:
http://lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/wilson01.html
Be informed. Be aware. Interpret the message(s) thusly.
BTW, ‘On a global level, there have been more than 2,400 Terrorist attacks perpetrated by *Muslims* against Westerners throughout the world during the 45 months since 9/11. NO, the clergy are not the only ones who regularly spew forth hate.” (Prophecies For the era Of Muslim Terror, A Torak Perspective On World Events, p.136).
Also, the ‘barrier’ that Israel erected, in order to prevent more *Terrorist* attacks from the Islamic Jihadists, in killing innocent Israeli citizens, that has come under much ridicule from around the world, here are some of the facts relating to why Israel had no choice but to errect the barrier, in order to simply save their own lives.
“For the 4 years beginning 2000, but before most of the fence was erected, Israel had suffered a staggering 11,356 casualities. For the 5 years ending July 2005, there were *25,375* Terror attacks committed by Muslim Terrorist-soldiers – this IS NOT a typing error and the printed number IS correct: 23, 375 ATTACKS. Isreal did not respond in the most effective manner, but Israel did eventually respond. Israel finally reacted to a BRUTAL TERRORIST-war in an unusual manner. Instead of escalating the fighting, Israel built a barrier. Moreover, in those areas where long stretches of the fence have been completed (e.g., in nothern Israel), Terrorist infiltration have been virtually eliminated. In other areas, the partially completed barrier has played a role in the 75% decline in SUICIDE-HOMICIDE attacks since the first half of 2004. It’s NOT that these TERRORIST-soldies haven’t tried to murder Jews; it’s just that they are being intercepted and apprehended on a daily basis as a RESULT of the fence. In that area where construction of the fence has not yet begun – the southern part of the West Bank, for example – NO decrease in the number of TERRORIST attacks have been noted. The obsticle to peace, is NOT the fence – BUT Arabs who have yet to abandom TERROR attacks, whose STATED GOAL IS the destruction of the entire State of Israel.” (Ibid., p. 191) emphasis added.
I recently saw Aja on TV, on one of his tours which covered Israel, he was filmed standing next to this BARRIER that Israel had NO choice but to erect, YET, in his IGNORANCE of the facts, said, paraphrasing, ‘…how could the world standby and allow Isreal to erect such a barrier…preventing the Palestinians free movement…” Aja, is just another uninformed, sadly misinformed soul, who has take in the viscious LIE, of Arabic ‘Turnspeak’ making the Israeli’s appear as the aggressor, when in fact, they ARE, and have being the VICTIMS for over 60 years,of DIABOLICAL *TERRORISM* since returing to their ancient homeland, and the State of Israel in 1948, from the combined forces of the Arab nations, whose SOLE intent, IS to annihilate all Jews and their God-given land.
BUT, it WILL NEVER happen, can’t happen, NO MATTER who tries. I will give a bit later, what happened to those (nations) who tried in destroying Israel, by giving assistance to the Arab HATERS of Israel, and YES, the British were one of those early in 1948, who PAID the terrible price for going against Israel deceitfully; NOW, America is on the same course of action, to its own demise.
From the moment, Almighty God said to Abraham back in Genesis.
“I WILL bless those who bless you…(and) I WILL curse him who curses you…” (Gen. 27: 29b) Anyone, individual, family or Nation, who blessed Israel, were favoured by Almighty God, AND, those who came against Israel, were CURSED, that IS an Historic FACT, throughout the history of the Jews, Israel, right up until today!!!
These *psuedo* scientist like Lewontin, as he just echoed the TRUE sentiments of the evolutionary materialistic community, when he SAID, “…we MUST NOT allow a divine foot in the door…’
Why not? because IF true science, were to honestly evaluate the FACTS, not premised upon a ‘Philosophical’ foundation, of RAMPANT ‘Atheism’ but SCIENCE as it WAS, then, the TRUTH would be told, NOT the vicious LIE of naturalistic evolution!
@Halsall, ‘Be informed. Be aware. Interpret the message(s) thusly!”
Surely, NOT by *pseudo* science!
@Zoe et al…
What you sadly fail to understand (or, perhaps, admit) is that *no* amount of security is going to stop hatred. Quite to the contrary. It will most likely increase it.
*No* amount of security is going to stop the deaths…
As I’ve said here on BU before, it is *well* know amongst security experts that it is almost impossible to stop a determined killer if said killer is willing to trade their own life in the act.
What if there are *many* determined killers who feel that they, and/or their people, have nothing left to lose?
My point?
Repressed peoples will naturally be angry.
People who have true opportunities will have reasons to live and let live.
So, then, the obvious question: why don’t we Humans go out of our way to ensure that /everyone/ have opportunities?
It might be better for *everyone*.
@ David…
If you read my concerns posted earlier up and some I made to Dictionary, you would understand.
I had asked, who is controlling this money being raised on behalf of Haiti, who is the “middle” man here
There is no functioning Government, therefore I cant see Agencies giving the funds to Government agencies.
They sure are not going to put it directly in the hands of the Haitian people.
I (fear) that this aid is going to some supposedly functioning successful business entities, run by people who are very influential, not only to The outside world but also to the Haitian people.
Sadly (and this is just my opinion ok) I suspect that the same families who really run Haiti, are the ones controlling the aid. Call it conspiracy theories or not but ( and forgive me for being blunt) I can’t see any organisations (worldwide) giving that amount of money to a Haitian person, with the mentality and the perception the world at large has about Haitians.
What better way to control this country and the people than to control the aid/money?
My opinion? check those families!!
@ David..
Who can the Government question?
They forfeited their rights from day one!!
Oh , have to get this off my chest, not meaning to compare disasters but look at the Haiti quake. The whole world was looking for the hungry, violent, barbaric, chaotic people to descend into gangs where looting would be wide scale, murders would be the norm and anarchy would prevail…..did not happen, this disaster brought them together as a people and we saw a side of the Haitian people we knew existed but were blinded by propaganda from seeing.
Now, Chile, a more “developed” nation, less destruction but more looting, anarchy etc.
Perception!…there, vented!
Onlookers:
I find it even more amusing when evolutionary materialists and their fellow travellers cannot acknowledge the truth when one of their number has let the cat out of the bag prematurely, spectacularly.
I will excerpt from the Wiki bio article, to show some of why this Harvard professor and holder of the Agassiz chair there [got his PhD under Dobzhansky, a founder of the modern Neo-Darwinian theory, too, and collaborated with Gould], is indeed an eminent evolutionary biologist,by any reasonable measure — and recall as well I have cited above Sir Francis Crick on an even more extreme manifestation of that same materialism, who is a Nobel Prize winner.
On Lewontin:
But in fact, to observe that modern origins science is dominated by an a prioristic evolutionary materialistic school of thought is rather akin to saying that the sky is blue.
From cosmology to planetary systems origin, to origin of life to body plan level macro-evo, to origin of man to the hard problem of consciousness, to the notorious fulminations of the recently retired Simonyi Prof for the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford [i.e. leading New Atheist, prof Richard Dawkins], the underlying a priori, Magisterium-enforced materialism that Lewontin so aptly described is rampant, even notorious.
The real problem in this thread on this rabbit trail — and notice the reticence to speak productively to the main issue on the part of ever so many commenters — is that I have traced roots back to the atomists, and rebuttals back to Plato’s expose in light of the amoral implications and the career of Alcibiades and co to the detriment of Athens.
Anyway, here is my most recent “hot quote” on the subject. this time form an historian of science specialising on Evolutionary Biology, Cornell’s William Provine in his notorious 1998 Darwin day speech at U Tenn::
Of course, if we cannot freely choose on rational grounds, we cannot reason and have a serious give and take dialogue, as all we say our do is shaped and controlled by unconscious forces tracing to genetic accidents, historical and cultural circumstances, and so even materialistic thoughts are determined. The position self refutes spectacularly, as does Crick’s astonishing hypothesis.
In short such evolutionary materialism is NECESSARILY false.
So, what we need to do is to face the truth about the current state of origins science, and think through the implications of the ongoing unravelling of Scientific materialism.
G’day
D
@Dictionary… Just a quick but serious question:
Have you read Roger Penrose’s “The Emperor’s New Mind”?
I would appreciate a direct (read: yes or no) answer.
Actually, T:aid process.
A lot of money IS being funnelled directly to Haitians. the service clubs and churches and other community groups and of course families are in the front lines for this.
But, remember, you are looking at the equivalent of a nuclear blast hitting a city. there just is not a n available global capacity to set things to rights immediately or sooner.
So, we have to dial back our expectations.
And as to the looting etc in Chile, just remember what happened in 1966 with the big black out in the US: looting got under way real fast. (In Ja DURING Gilbert, people were looting refrigerators, TVs etc from the shopping plazas . . . )
So, maybe we can understand why boots on the ground were an early priority; to try to hold the chaos in check.
We live in a fallen world, and we are fallen people. The newspapers are proof enough of that.
D
PS: David, the turquoise-grey helps. Still would prefer the timing and numbering of comments.