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Onlookers:
“Once more unto the breach dear friends . . . ”
First, Hopi is of course failing to address what has been on the table for a long time now, on what is needed to actually show precedence: causal chain. And in particular, she is duckling the need to account for the utter difference in worldview between magical, pagan polytheism of Egypt, and the fiercely monotheistic covenantal Creational Monotheism of the Biblical faith.
Instead, she is following a known flawed pattern, of putting up whatever can be rendered as a vague parallel and asserting copying. (And BTW, modern concepts of authorship and intellectual property are not properly to be projected to ancient times.)
Worse, she now wishes to highlight a chain of intellectual ancestry for Greek philosophy and antecedent influences, circa C5 – 6 BC, as though that has anything whatever to do with the covenantal faith of Israel that traces to Abraham, c 2000 – 1800 BC, and beyond.
When one diverts to such a blatant red herring on a completely differennt subject, that is a strong indicator that one cannot stand on the merits. So, onlookers, let us look again at her claims of yesterday, on Jesus:
Regarding your Greek origin of Iesous/Iesus…these are all variations/derivations of the AEgyptians ..Iu..of Iuemhetp which means the ever coming Son, or Iusu the coming Son Jesus. Now do you see the origin?
a –> Nowhere the faintest trace of documentation — no prizes for guessing why.
b –> We can however, find at least a parallel case in Harpur’s recent brainchild, and may note the remarks of real Egyptologists on this sort of “derivation” of Jesus’ name:
Peter F. Dorman of the University of Chicago commented: “It is often tempting to suggest simplistic etymologies between Egyptian and Greek (or other languages), but similar sequences of consonants and/or vowels are insufficient to demonstrate any convincing connection.”
Ron Leprohan, of the University of Toronto, pointed out that while sa means ‘son’ in ancient Egyptian and iu means ‘to come,’ [Alvin Boyd] Kuhn [a high school language teacher who earned a PhD from Columbia University by writing a dissertation on Theosophy] and Harpur have the syntax all wrong. In any event, the name Iusa simply does not exist in Egyptian. The name ‘Jesus’ is Greek, derived from a universally recognized Semitic name (Jeshu’a) borne by many people in the first century. . . . .
AND, anticipating yet another “parallel”:
KRST is the word for ‘burial’ (‘coffin’ is written ‘KRSW’); but there is no evidence whatsoever to link this with the Greek title ‘Christos,’ or Hebrew ‘Mashiah.’
c –> In other words, the summary remarks by the well known and academically respected authors of the standard Lexicons as already cited (and as is routinely taught in even fairly basic sunday school classes) are correct.
d –> Hopi, it is quite evident that you are simply repeating error deriving from unreliable sources; and are failing to address basic criteria of warrant for claims of antecedence in thoughts and teachings.
e –> For instance, as already noted on a good comparative case:
“It is all too easy to run eagerly after superficial parallels which cannot really be sustained under a closer scrutiny. Accordingly, [i] the parallels must have similar ideas underlying them [i.e. similarity of worldview and key concepts] and, [ii] second, any suggestion of influence requires that the parallels be numerous, complex and detailed, with a similar conceptual usage [i.e. there must be enough points of central parallel that the relationship is plainly ancestral] and, ideally, that [iii] they should point to a specific myth or group of related myths in Mesopotamia. Finally, [iv] the parallels and their similar underlying ideas must involve central features in the material to be compared. Only then, it would seem, may any claim stronger than one of mere coincidence be worthy of serious consideration” [Greek Myths and Mesopotamia: Parallels and Influence in the Homeric Hymns and Hesiod. Charles Penglase. Routledge:1994:7, parenthetical notes and numbering added]
f –> As had to be pointed out already, Egyptian polytheistic, magically focussed paganism is at worldview level utterly antithetical to Hebraic, covenantal, creational Monotheism.
[ . . . ]
Ab boy, didn’t get through . . .
Onlookers:
In the earlier thread that raised issues over Jesuits, I pointed to a more credible case of eschatologically relevant conspiracy. Perhaps, it is worth reproducing this, for discussion here [with slight adjustments]:
______________
>>Here, from Wiki [here, giving access to otherwise very hard to find info . . . ] is a key section of the first, 1877, intended last will and testament of that rapist of Africa, Cecil Rhodes — made before he really got going:
To and for the establishment, promotion and development of a Secret Society [he had been a lodge member from college days, but was not satisfied with what they were doing; so he set out to do the game one better . . . ], the true aim and object whereof shall be for the extension of British rule throughout the world, the perfecting of a system of emigration from the United Kingdom, and of colonisation by British subjects of all lands where the means of livelihood are attainable by energy, labour and enterprise, and especially the occupation by British settlers of the entire Continent of Africa, the Holy Land, the Valley of the Euphrates, the Islands of Cyprus and Candia, the whole of South America, the Islands of the Pacific not heretofore possessed by Great Britain, the whole of the Malay Archipelago, the seaboard of China and Japan, the ultimate recovery of the United States of America as an integral part of the British Empire, the inauguration of a system of Colonial representation in the Imperial Parliament which may tend to weld together the disjointed members of the Empire and, finally, the foundation of so great a Power as to render wars impossible, and promote the best interests of humanity.
Now, let us make a few adjustments to this summary of the views of what would have been “progressive” imperialists of the late C19 British Toff upper classes:
(i) Take out the British Empire and substitute a New World Order and international bodies to act as “parliament of the world” [cf. League of Nations, the United Nations etc];
(ii) Reduce the racism and sexism, and promote creation of an internationalist elite [cf Rhodes Scholarships . . . ]
(iii) For a single secret society, substitute a cluster of internationalist organisations and associated advocacy societies, some open, some confidential.
(iv) Substitute a Global Community superstate as the “so great a power . . .” with UN mandated forces as precursors. [Shades of Nicolae Carpathia’s emergence and behind the scenes sponsorship in the first of the Left Behind novels and movies by La Haye and Jenkins . . . ]
(v) Put up wave after wave of media hyped international crises and use them to panic the international public into signing over sovereignty to the already conveniently existing superstate organs. [Shades of Copenhagen and Kyoto, and Club of Rome and and and . . . ]
(vi) Enter, stage LEFT, the emerging, greatest, brilliant, articulate, handsome young internationalist man of peace and rescue [perhaps with a background that is in a bit of shade . . . ], the ultimate political saviour . . . one who can solve for instance that long running sore in the Middle East through a seven year, confidence building treaty . . . [Maybe, a European- raised half- Turk or the like, a suave man of affairs, with a bit of Muslim background but he is a trusted friend of the modern world (he makes all the right noises and radiates all the inner circle’s Newspeak and new gesture signals, ever so eloquently . . . ), having studied in Jesuit schools and Colleges [maybe Loyola U or George Washington U] — the best of the best [I had the privilege of a Jesuit secondary education]! — with a nodding acquaintanceship with Pope Peter, 263rd in line from Peter I . . . [cf Joel Richardson here.]
(vii) Voila, we have a global government with the Man of Sin [cf an exposition here in light of the principle of multiple fulfillment as already discussed: i.e. persecuting Roman Emperors foreshadow the ultimate Evil Emperor to come . . . ] at the helm and so great a power at his command that none can disobey or resist him and survive . . .
Now, does this nightmare scenario sound a little too close to current events and trends over the past century or so for comfort?
Maybe, it should!
________________
Food for thought . . .
D
Footnote:
The real roots and fruits of paganism etc:
_____________
>>Rom 1:1:19 . . . what can be known about God is plain to [men],42 because God has made it plain to them. 1:20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people43 are without excuse.
1:21 For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts44 were darkened. 1:22 Although they claimed45 to be wise, they became fools 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal human beings46 or birds or four-footed animals47 or reptiles. [Then, in temples and associated with scandalous legends; nowadays, too often, in Museums and textbooks, and announced in the name of “Knowledge” i.e. Science.]
1:24 Therefore God gave them over48 in the desires of their hearts to impurity, to dishonor49 their bodies among themselves.50 1:25 They51 exchanged the truth of God for a lie52 and worshiped and served the creation53 rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
1:26 For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones,54 1:27 and likewise the men also abandoned natural relations with women55 and were inflamed in their passions56 for one another. Men57 committed shameless acts with men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God,58 God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what should not be done.59 1:29 They are filled60 with every kind of unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, malice. They are rife with61 envy, murder, strife, deceit, hostility. They are gossips, 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, contrivers of all sorts of evil, disobedient to parents, 1:31 senseless, covenant-breakers,62 heartless, ruthless. 1:32 Although they fully know63 God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die,64 they not only do them but also approve of those who practice them. >>
_____________
Sounds uncomfortably familiar?
It should . . .
D
Onlookers (and David):
O/T but important.
Mr Halshall, sadly, has taken to putting up slanderously twisted strawmannish summaries of the views of Zoe, GP and I on threads where we are not present to correct.
I have had to sharply correct such rhetorical back-stabbing here.
G’day
D
So long as you guys keep putting down Egypt, we will hold it up. Every dog got a bone.
You with so little shame crying own your own ancestors while putting up a blue-eyed, blonde hair white man.
Hahahahahahahahahaha. Talk about fools? None of you should ever call anybody a fool. That is the height.
@Dictionary
The greatest perpetrator of paganism is christianity. It copied all the pagan practices and package it nicely in one book under so-called one god. Let’s start with Easter and Christmas.
Today, in ignorance, we hold it up. The christian world you hold in your mind is a figment of your imagination and has nothing to do with historical facts.
Onlookers:
In absence of fact and logic, and conspicuously failing to make amends for grievously wrong and slanderous claims and assertions, ROK now makes further unwarranted and unsubstantiated assertions.
That, sadly, is enough to tell us all what is really going on.
As simple direct corrective statements:
1: No-one has been “putting down” Egypt (or Africa more widely) in the time of its past glory as leading nation in the ME, but . . .
2: We have pointed out — with reasons — that Egyptian polytheistic paganism is not the credible source of the Judaeo-Christian worldview and faiths associated therewith. (And indeed, when there was a specific power confrontation between the magicians, Pharaoh, priests, idols and backing demons of Egypt and YHWH and his prophet over “let my people go [from slavery]”, YHWH won decisively without breaking a sweat.)
3: Also, sadly, ROK now out and out insists on lying in the face of Zoe, GP and I having EXPLICITLY stated that it is neither the Biblical teaching nor our understanding nor that of informed Christians generally that Jesus of Nazareth was blond or blue eyed. (This LIE, of course is meant to set up a racial loyalty polarisation and atmosphere poisoning. That such lies have to be resorted to and insisted on is utterly telling on the clear want of credibility of what ROK has asserted, and sadly tells against his own character.)
4: Neither ROK nor anyone else has been able to show that NT Christian faith — “the Faith once for all delivered to the saints” — was based on a copying of ideas, teachings, stories, and patterns derived from Egyptian or other paganism. Assertions and superficial parallelisms do not a proper substantiation make — as I have had to point out again above recently to Hopi; and as the experts (with good reason as shown) state in so many words.
5: Further to all this, right from the beginning, it has been shown that he History of religions School that sought to trace Christian Origins in particular to various pagan and philosphical systems, failed once the evidence of teh Dead Sea scrolls etc plainly showed the hebraic roots of the Christian faith in an indisputably pre AD 70 cluster of Jewish archaeological materials.
6: However, there is a well-known propaganda technique where insistent, uncorrected repetition of such falsehoods as are again corrected just above, may lead the naive or uninformed to take the false for the truth.
7: So, let the record note: ROK has again insisted on clinging to and promulgating damaging falsehoods in the teeth of correction that is more than well warranted; correction that has been put to him over the course of days or even weeks now.
G’day
D
David, there is soe stuff in the mod pile, sorry. (I was looking on this when I ran into ROK’s latest fulminations.)
PS: Let some facts that have been highlighted since Dec 24th inst again expose the ideological agenda-serving slander in ROK’s:
The christian world you hold in your mind is a figment of your imagination and has nothing to do with historical facts.
Now, let us again hear from historian Dr Paul Barnett, Master of Robert Menzies College, Macquarie University, Sydney; who has specialised in the study of Judaean History under the Romans in C1, regarding the Non-Christian sources [we have a NT chock full of well-corroborated historical details, esp. the astonishingly well substantiated Luke-Acts history of the period form c. 6 BC – 62 AD]:
On the basis of . . . non-Christian sources [i.e. Tacitus (Annals, on the fire in Rome, AD 64; written ~ AD 115), Rabbi Eliezer (~ 90’s AD; cited J. Klausner, Jesus of Nazareth (London: Collier-Macmillan, 1929), p. 34), Pliny (Letters to Trajan from Bithynia, ~ AD 112), Josephus (Antiquities, ~ 90’s)] it is possible to draw the following conclusions:
1. Jesus Christ was executed (by crucifixion?) in Judaea during the period where Tiberius was Emperor (AD 14 – 37) and Pontius Pilate was Governor (AD 26 – 36). [Tacitus]
2. The movement spread from Judaea to Rome. [Tacitus]
3. Jesus claimed to be God and that he would depart and return. [Eliezer]
4. His followers worshipped him as (a) god. [Pliny]
5. He was called “the Christ.” [Josephus]
6. His followers were called “Christians.” [Tacitus, Pliny]
7. They were numerous in Bithynia and Rome [Tacitus, Pliny]
8. It was a world-wide movement. [Eliezer]
9. His brother was James. [Josephus][Is the New Testament History? (London, Hodder, 1987), pp. 30 – 31.]
And, when it comes to historiography of classical times, it does not get better than the following AD 55 original source document, reporting on the official record of the NT church’s witness with 500+ witnesses, dating in turn to 33 – 35 AD:
1 Corinthians 15
The Resurrection of Christ
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
In short, ROK has not only not done his homework, but he has refused to listen to the corrections of those who have.
Sad, but telling on the true balance of the case on the merits.
@Dictionary
Zoe said: “As was commonly the case in ANCIENT PAGANISM, the *gods* of EGYPT were in large measure the personifications of the powers of NATURE, the EXACT OPPOSITE to the One and ONLY *GOD* of the Israelites”
If that is not a put down, nothing else will qualify.
It does not take much to set you off. I really can’t believe you said this, “Here, from Wiki [here, giving access to otherwise very hard to find info . . . ] is a key section of the first, 1877, intended last will and testament of that rapist of Africa, Cecil Rhodes — made before he really got going:
It was in the very name of christianity. You digging your own grave? You understand that the Bible you hold is the King James version? You understand who was the head of the Church at the time?
Like the saying goes… “when the white man went to Africa, he had the bible and the Africans had the land. This vile man had plotted to steal all the land from the Africans for the head of the church.
That is what you upholding so you could curse Cecil Rhodes as you like, it would either be a show of hypocrisy or of the fact that you are truly ignorant of the facts.
Oh, I see, you making that statement to show empathy with somebody?
You also understand that christianity is the dogma that upholds the illumaniti and the new world order? Do you understand why Muslims is such a threat? Do you understand what is the war on terrorism? Do you understand why USA is in Afghanistan an why they invaded Iraq? Do you understand why Nigeria is now on the USA blacklist?
Do you understand why the Israelis are committing genocide against the Palestinians?
It all the same equation my friend and christianity is not simply a function, it is a constant.
Okay:
before heading out, let’s try again with the missing half post [cf. from here on], earlier:
+++++++++++
>> g –> Thus, the superficial comparisons are failing at the first two criteria, fatally stumbling coming out the starting gate.
h –> This has been evident on: [1] claimed derivation of the gospel plot-line from the legend of Osiris, [2] the attempts to derive names such as Jesus from Egyptian sources, [3] the attempt to derive Jesus’ counsel on avoiding show in almsgiving and religious works then provide a model prayer from the maxims of Ani.
i –> Of this papyrus, republished in recent years by a company that specialises in “rare esoteric topics such as Freemasonry, Rosicrucian, academy, hermetics and theosophy,” we may see on taking a sample:
“Beware of the woman in the street who is not known in her native town. Follow her not, nor any woman who is [229]like her. Do not make her acquaintance. She is like a deep stream the windings of which are unknown.
“Go not with common men, lest thy name be made to stink.”
“When an inquiry is held, and thou art present, multiply not speech; thou wilt do better if thou holdest thy peace. Act not the part of the chatterer.
“The sanctuary of God [= Temple? the translation seems overly influenced by our own religious traditions] abhorreth noisy demonstrations. Pray thou with a loving heart, and let thy words be hidden (or secret). Do this, and He will do thy business for thee. He will hearken unto thy words, and He will receive thy offering.
“Place water before thy father and thy mother who rest in their tombs…. Forget not to do this when thou art outside thy house, and as thou doest for them so shall thy son do for thee.”
j –> In the main, this is of course precisely an example of the sort of wisdom literature on wise sayings that was a common fund all over the Ancient Near East, as was discussed above. (That is in part why Solomon — he of the many thousands of proverbs and songs — was consulted and tested by the Arabian Queen of Sheba, and it is how Daniel could become the director of the magi in Babylon.)
k –> And, on looking at context and key ideas, we see that the highlighted maxim is about noisiness in temple — pagan! — not avoiding show of religiosity to make a favourable impression on other men [this being the unfortunately common practice of a specific religious party in C1 Israel . . . a party whose name is now a byword], which was Jesus’ specific context.
l –> So, the claimed parallels are plainly over-drawn, do not realte to the sort of defining characteristics that make antecedence likely, and fail to deal with the implied claim that polytheistic paganism somehow gave rise to the covenantal, Creational Monotheism that traces to Abraham and beyond.
m –> Sometimes, the case of Atenakhen is suggested as an antecedent. The problem, here, is that we have elevation of the Sun god, worshipped by the Pharaoh, but others were then to worship the Pharaoh as the living god.
n –> The actual star, Sol, the sun, of course is a creation of the real God; not God himself — and the sun is a part of merely mechanical creation, not moral creation!
o –> Worse, the worship of the pharaoh as a living god is simple idolatry: did such — per generally circulated prophecies made 700 y ahead of time, rise from the dead with 500 + witnesses in demonstration of incarnation of the one true God as Immanuel, God with us? [The question answers itself.]
_________
In sum, Hopi has made assertions, and has failed to provide proper substantiation. On inspection, the type of substantiation needed is simply not there.
Unfortunately, the abuse of superficialities is now a common rhetorical tactic among hose who would try to discredit the Bible and the Faith that puts its trust in him who per prophecies hundreds of years before that were in general circulation, died for our sins and rose from the dead with 500+ witnesses, and poured out his Spirit so that sinners could be transformed into children of God.
Let us therefore mark these rhetorically manipulative but unwarranted arguments: exposed.
For, it is an unfortunate necessity to expose and correct error, lest it create the false impression of truth and induce the naive to reject the well-warranted, credible truth of the gospel when they encounter it.
Next, something progressive . . .
D
PS: David if this gets through don’t bother on the mod piled, thanks. >>
+++++++++++
Hope this gets through David.
David, tried again on the second half, mod piled. Why, I know not.
@Dictionary
“In short, ROK has not only not done his homework, but he has refused to listen to the corrections of those who have…”
I have no homework to do. It is so simple. You playing football and I playing cricket. The rules of the two games are very different and the balls are of a different size and hardness.
So you will always get your toes stumped because you don’t kick a cricket ball, but you can lick away a football with a bat or even break a foot with one. You don’t score goals in cricket or did you not notice there are no goal bars? There are only two sticks in a football goal and in cricket there are three on the wicket.
If you would stop kicking the cricket ball, you would not have the wailing to do that I seeing coming from you above. I see Zoe and GP are sympathetically wailing too. Like them ain’t see that it is a cricket ball either.
You surely barking up the wrong tree.
There is on BU posters who hate STUDYING & SEARCHING not only the scriptures, but also the relevant information that relates to the scriptures and hitory in general.
A real scholar knows his material and knows where to look for the relevant sources to indicate what is truth or error.
“Impostors” and those who wou;ld deem true scholars as “inflexible” just spout thier beliefs based on info they have recieved here and there.
In other words they are “babblers.” (Check the etymology of that word and you will see it is derived from a Greek word that means “seed pickers.”
The scriptures in John’s gospel and 1 John declares that the world and those of the world (the cosmos diabolicus) will hate the believer, as is clearly demonstrated here on BU. And it is very assuring to see this display of hate.
But the ignorance and dishonesty is pathetic.
It can be said of some of you as Paul said of the Jews in Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness , have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God .
Further in the chapter Paul says….
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved .
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed ? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? and how shall they hear without a preacher ?
ROK:
Zoe was giving a specifically correct description of the gods of Egypt, who were just as described.
(Cf description here, without endorsing all that it says — the site is influenced by the history of religions school itself, and advances a long since discredited overall account of the origins of religious views: primitive notions of spirits –> animism –> polytheistic paganism –> henotheism –> monotheism –> post theism.)
An accurate description is not a put down, sir.
G’day
D
@Dictionary
“Zoe was giving a specifically correct description of the gods of Egypt, who were just as described. ”
Et tu Brute?
@Dictionary
To be called a pagan is by itself a put down. There were no pagans in Egypt and this term has been used to describe people in somewhat of an uncivilised state; even down to people who worshipped the devil. Egypt was far more civilised than the Hebrews.
PS: Cecil Rhodes was no Christian — he was in fact a Masonist, and it seems credible, a homosexualist. He acted in the name of a world empire, not Christ. (Clearly, your biases and hostility are distorting almost everything that you read. I am speaking above of a REAL proposal in a last will and testament to finance a global takeover by a secret society. Based on knowledge of the course of the past 100 years and the activities of say Churchill, Smuts, and the two Roosevelts as well as Wilson et al, Col House etc etc, and of course the Rhodes Scholarship programme [SAME Rhodes!] I have pointed out a further pattern of shifting from glorified Britsh Empire to Global Community. I then raised some serious issues that connect thereto, inclusive of the decisively un-headlined Climate Gate scandal and its implications. You need to think again, sir; including on the deeper agendas of international backers of NGOs etc such as the Rockefeller Foundation, the MacArthur Foundation, the Ford Foundation, the UN and its various arms [including the IMF and the World Bank, let us not forget] etc etc.)
@GP
“There is on BU posters who hate STUDYING & SEARCHING not only the scriptures, but also the relevant information that relates to the scriptures and hitory in general…”
I remember Chris Halsall recommending a book to you which you scoffed at, saying you read some other book. It means that any new information or ideas on the topic, you would have missed but that did not stop you from pontificating.
Looks like you fall into the same boat? How many others have you refused to read? Well your knowledge on those topics would be missing all that you have refuse to read.
Now you come here and profess your expertise on the bible. I do not think you have read much more than me but I have a different perspective. So because my perspective is different, I don’t research.
I do so much reading on a daily basis that I have no time to revise what I have known for more than thirty years. During that interim, I have even sought to put that information out of my mind for humanitarian reasons. Once I reached the stage of understanding that christianity is a belief like any other belief with a probability that is tending to zero, why worry?
The problem is that this said same christianity, in its quest to move from zero probability, is totally destroying our lives; especially the value judgment, fear-mongering, discrimination and stigmatisation techniques that we Bajans so believe in using.
Onlookers:
AmHD:
__________
>>pa·gan (pgn)
n.
1. An adherent of a polytheistic religion in antiquity, especially when viewed in contrast to an adherent of a monotheistic religion.
2. A Neopagan.
3. Offensive
a. One who has no religion.
b. An adherent of a religion other than Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.
4. A hedonist.>>
___________
In short, the word is precisely decriptive of classical Egyptian polytheism on its first and most classical meaning, and is specifically non-offensive in such a use.
Secondly, when it describes post Christian, post secularist, post modern polytheism and/or panentheism and/or pantheism — i.e. neo-paganism it is also accurate and fair.
It is only when “pagan” is tossed around as a synonym for adhering to “no religion” or “religion other than Islam and those religions it recognises” — i.e. when it is used in the sense of the specifically Islamic term Kuffir — that it becomes offensive.
(And you will note above onlookers that I have distinguished Animism and pantheism or henotheism from paganism.)
ROK is trying to be rhetorically hyper-sensitive to spew yet more polarisation, even as he refuses to apologise for and retract outright LIES and SLANDERS, much less acknowledge well-earned and longstanding corrections.
G’day
@Dict………Pagans was a term originally used to describe the NORTHERNERS[and they were not Black]. This is where it originated with those who sacrificed human and animals on the altar of a log of fire, right around christmas time. That was their way of celebrating.
The your good Roman friends [good morning roman citizen Carthage must be destroyed] celebrated the feast of Saturnalia which celebrated the birth of the god Mithra who represented the birth of the Unconquered Sun!
At the feast of Saturnalia any and everything abominable was allowed including sexual orgies in the street where little children were involved, blood-drinking, human sacrifice and on and on. It was so awful that Oliver Cromwell in England banned Christmas.
btw..When was Jesus Christ born? How is it that shepherds were out watching their flock by night…. cold december nights?
PPS: As to “there were no pagans in Egypt,” that takes the cake![Cf here, again. Just scroll down the alphabetical list of the gods of ancient Egypt, folks.]
PPS: And here we see as clear a demonstration of the fallacy of the closed, deeply indoctrinated — and on evidence above, hostile — mind as is possible, in ROK’s own volunteered words: “I do so much reading on a daily basis that I have no time to revise what I have known for more than thirty years.” (In the teeth of substantial, fact-based repeated correction on points of error and major misinformation as well as slanders, ROK insists that he “knows” — for 30 years now. Sad.)
Rok
I don’t usually respond to you because I gave up on you long time ago.
You have nothing to offer. Nothing to give.
You take everything out of its context, and thus make it a pretext.
hallall wanted me to read some BS written by a known non- Biochemist, when I have read nearly ALL THE LEADING TEXTS AND WEBSITES ON THE SUBJECT.
WHAT CAN A NON BIOCHEMIST TEACH ME ABOUT BIOCHEMISTRY THAT THE LEADING BIOCHEMISTS DO NOT KNOW?
Keep posting Rok. Since it is an unfortunate necessity to expose and correct error, lest it create the false impression of truth and induce the naive to reject the well-warranted, credible truth of the gospel when they encounter it, your junk is being uses as fodder and a springboard to continue to teach truth.
Many are thanking us for what they are learning Sir. So keep posting Rok, so that we can continue to debunk your nonsense and teach the truth.
Hopi:
Kindly read the dictionary as just cited: it makes no geographical exceptions, and as to geographical referents; you should know full well that Egyptian paganism was a part of the Roman era Mediterranean world, so much so that the cult of Isis was one of the mystery religions that were popular in Rome.
Or, is it that the dictionary is now suspect, just as original bible language lexicons by leading and acknowledged experts were suspect, when they did not line up with what you wish to assert.
Not to mention, you have some pretty serious correcting of your previous errors and slanders to take care of.
G’day
D
David: maybe you are busy elsewhere but the competing part is still on the mod pile.
G’day
@Georgie P………Look at your ‘great jews, the chosen ones’ or maybe you think this is in accordance with God’s word?
Jonathan Cook, Foreign Correspondent
* Last Updated: January 05. 2010 11:43PM UAE / January 5. 2010 7:43PM GMT
Ethiopian Jews are reported to face widespread discrimination in jobs, housing and education in Israel. AP Photo
NAZARETH, Israel // Health officials in Israel are subjecting many female Ethiopian immigrants to a controversial long-term birth control drug in what Israeli women’s groups allege is a racist policy to reduce the number of black babies.
The contraceptive, known as Depo Provera, which is given by injection every three months, is considered by many doctors as a birth control method of last resort because of problems treating its side effects.
However, according to a report published last week, use of the contraceptive by Israeli doctors has risen threefold over the past few years. Figures show that 57 per cent of Depo Provera users in Israel are Ethiopian, even though the community accounts for less than two per cent of the total population.
About 90,000 Ethiopians have been brought to Israel under the Law of Return since the 1980s, but their Jewishness has subsequently been questioned by some rabbis and is doubted by many ordinary Israelis.
Ethiopians are reported to face widespread discrimination in jobs, housing and education and it recently emerged that their blood donations were routinely discarded.
“This is about reducing the number of births in a community that is black and mostly poor,” said Hedva Eyal, the author of the report by Woman to Woman, a feminist organisation based in Haifa, in northern Israel. “The unspoken policy is that only children who are white and Ashkenazi are wanted in Israel,” she said, referring to the term for European Jews who founded Israel and continue to dominate its institutions.
Women’s groups were alerted to the widespread use of Depo Provera in the Ethiopian community in 2008 when Rachel Mangoli, who runs a day care centre for 120 Ethiopian children in Bnei Braq, a suburb of Tel Aviv, observed that she had received only one new child in the previous three years.
“I started to think about how strange the situation was after I had to send back donated baby clothes because there was no one in the community to give them to,” she said.
She approached a local health clinic serving the 55 Ethiopian families in Bnei Braq and was told by the clinic manager that they had been instructed to administer Depo Provera injections to the women of child-bearing age, though he refused to say who had issued the order.
Ms Mangoli, who interviewed the women, said: “They had not been told about alternative forms of contraception or about the side effects or given medical follow-ups.” The women complained of a wide range of side effects associated with the drug, including headaches, abdominal pain, fatigue, nausea, loss of libido and general burning sensations.
Depo Provera is also known to decrease bone density, especially among dark-skinned women, which can lead to osteoporosis in later life. Doctors are concerned that it is difficult or impossible to help women who experience severe side effects because the drug is in their system for months after it is injected.
The contraceptive’s reputation has also been tarnished by its association with South Africa, where the apartheid government had used it, often coercively, to limit the fertility of black women.
Look at the policies of your AshkeNAZIS!
@Dic……..And who gave you CHRISTIANITY?
One last note:
I am full well aware — as I have noted before, that it is most likely Jesus was born Septish, though I have recently seen a suggestion that in S Palestine where Bethlehem is, Dec is still possible.
As to Constantine and Sol Invictus — i.e. Apollo — I am well aware of his problems.
Post C1 confusions have nothing to do with the founding of the faith once for All Delivered to the Saints.
So, sorry, the yuletide red herring is hereby skewered for lunch. (i treat Xmas as a useful time of year for evangelism, and I actually once preached a sermon on the subject of are you celebrating Christmas or Saturnalia? Noting therein how the use of a day when the degree of light in northern climes begins to rise up to the full light at Pentecost is highly and appropriately symbolic, as rev’d Garnett Roper of First Church E Street Kgn, preached in a sermon that struck me deeply many years ago now. So, since Royalty have diverse official and personal birthdays — as does my mom — I have no problem whatsoever in having an official birthday celebration for our Lord, Immanuel!)
Free red herring sandwiches for lunch!
(Hopi sponsoring.)
D
As I shut off:
Hopi, iIse be a Joomakee; so my spiritual roots in Christianity trace to one certain Black Apostle and Father of the churches in the Americas and Africa!
The founder of the same church that led the way in forging a national identity for my homeland, providing leadership and national heroes [all of them martyrs], and in liberation and empowerment.
And as to the red herrings on Israel and its problems, you need to find a bit more balanced source than BBC and ilk. As to Depo Povera, a bit of a more balanced source is here. (And, onlookers, how those who hate Israel and/or Jews love to try to tag Jews as “nazis,” in a cruel turnabout slander. FOR SHAME HOPI — YET AGAIN.)
There are indeed discrimination problems in Israel, as in all countries.
They are working on them, and it is significant that on the Israeli supreme court sits an Arab judge, fulfilling he covenant in the Israeli declaration of independence on fundamental equality.
Looks like Hopi got a truck full of them red herrings — free red herring sandwiches for lunch folks.
G’day
D
@Dic……….Will you join me for a glass of BITTER GALL with those red herring sandwiches, while I, LMAO? Its not too late to celebrate christmas you know…the Orthodox Russians celebrated yesterday.
PS….No children allowed.
HAHAHAHA
OH LORDEEE! All are invited! Oh sweet Ieusus!
@Dic…………Pls don’t go, come back, come back!
Break down the word Ashkenazi for us please!
Rok, You ARE a vicious, malicious, reprehensible, putrid *LIAR* in the FACE of the historic FACTS and EVIDENCE, that ancient Egyptian RELIGIOUS practices, openly, and blatantly *WORSHIPPED* of a vast mutiplicity of *false* demonically FABRICATED *gods* which WAS the *CORE* of ALL ancient civilizations, *UNTIL* the One True and Living God, strenuously FORBID such wanton *Idolatry* as SEEN throughtout the Old Testament and the New Testament, AND you, ROK, continue with this NASTY, iniquitous, REPROBATE *LIE* you are a disgrace to any semblance of TRUTH, or the lest trace of ANY intellectual honesty, in the teeth of FACTS and evidence!
1) FACT Re Egyptian Idolatry
Idolatry in its broadest sense IS the *worship* of Idols and images.
The ancient Sumerians believed that the universe was directed by a *pantheon* of gods, and the chief ones being An, Ki, Enlil, and Enki. The Mesopotamian *pantheon* was composed of more than 1,500 gods some of the better known ones being Shamah, Marduk, Sin, and Ishtar.
Egyptians had THOUSANDS of *dieties*. Every aspect of nature, animate and inanimate WAS thought to be inhabited by a deity. The ruler himself was considered to be the incarnation of a *god*, each one while living assumed the name Horus, the deity who avenged the death of Osiris.
2) FACT Re Hebrew Religion.
The worship of *idols* in the Old testament WAS an *abomination* to the protagnists of Hebrew Monotheism. They *condemned* as *idolatry* any tendency whatsoever of the people to adopt in any way, the local Canaanite cults. The OT emphasizes that the WORST *SIN* was to acknowledge other gods besides Jehovah, and to make an IMAGE of any kind or LIKENESS, as WAS rampant in Egypt et al societies, was pronounced by Jehovah, as AN *abomination*
The FACT of the matter, Biblically, IS, that the BAN, prohibition on such wanton, devilish IMAGES was an entirely NEW concept in the ancient East, IT WAS NEVER heard of before, UNTIL Almighty God, specifically to the Hebrews BORBID such crass ABOMINATION.
Etymology of the principle words translated “IDOL” or “IMAGE” in the Old Testament reveal the absolute HORROR and SCORN of the Bible writers toward IDOLATRY, as practices in Egypt et al societies. Something that can be rolled about (Ezek 20: 31); ‘trouble, sorrow (Isa. 66: 3); ‘DREAD, TERROR (Jer. 50: 38); WEAK, NOTHINGNESS, FEEBLE (Lev. 19:4); ‘a HORRIBLE THING, a cause of sorrow, something shaped’ ( I Sam 31: 9). ALL these words EXPRESS the LIFELESS and ABSENCE of true deity in an IDOL or IMAGE, as was rampant throughtout Egypt and ALL the other societies, BAR NONE.
A recurring theme in the Old Testament IS the RIDICULE heaped upon those who would make an IDOL with their hands, as WAS done in Egypt et al, and then bow down and worship it
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts. I AM the FIRST and I AM the LAST, Besides ME there IS no God. Those who MAKE an IMAGE, ALL of them are USELESS…Who would form a god or mold an IMAGE, that profits them nothing. Surely ALL his companions would be ASHAMED” (Isaiah 44: 9-11) emphasis added.
The Old Testament strongly emphasizes the POWERLESSNESS of *idols* and the *gods* of the Canaanites. Gideon DESTROYED the altar of Ba’al, and his father mocked the irate worshipers (Judg 6: 25-32). The IMAGE of Dragon FELL on the ground before the ark of God (I Sam 5). Elijah mocked the priest of Ba’al in the contest on Mount Carmel ( I Kings 18: 27).
The ABSOLUTE prohibition AGAINST *idolatry* found explicit expression in the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20: 4), which FORBADE an representation of Almighty God in ANY form whatsoever. The commandment was not an attack on artists and sculptors, BUT, on *IDOLATRY*. To worship IDOLS as the Egyptians et all constantly did, in the eyes of Almighty God, and for the Hebrews, WAS to go A-WHORING after other FALSE gods; therefore Idolatry was described as adultery (Hos 1:2; 9:1, Ezek 16: 15-17; 23).
Rok, you should be utterly ashamed, to stand here on a public Blog, and utter such crass LIES, in the face of the Historic facts and evidence, that emphatically show and reveal, that Egypt et al WERE ALL DEPPLY into idolatry, worship of FALSE *gods* wheras, the RECORD, as divnely contained the the Old Testament, soundly REFUTE, nefarious, vicious, corrupt, perverse LIE.
Utter SHAME on you, MR. BANGO! What a devious man you are??!!
@Zoe
Mr. BANGO. So what do you do? Where do you work? You are the vicious one fella. Nothing but vermin comes from you especially. You would seek to use BANGO as your defense? How does BANGO come in? Another one of your dirty moves?
This is the second time you try that. You and your discriminating tactics. Seeking to discredit. First the Egyptians and now me, for what? My beliefs? Yours is of no more value than mine, so if you think you have something on me, think again.
Let me say this, I will not stand for it and I hope the day DON’T come that I have to go to the court to ask for your identity based on the constitutional right that each and every citizen is entitled to their own spiritual or religious consciousness and beliefs. Continue with your evil ways.
Elsewhere, passing by:
Saw Hopi trying to wriggle out of what she put up at January 8, 2010 at 11:06 AM:
Look at the policies of your AshkeNAZIS!
D
PS: Onlookers, observe [prophesied — 2 Pet 3] mocking objectors trying to drive out those who point out the unwelcome truth now . . .
@Zoe
“Rok, You ARE a vicious, malicious, reprehensible, putrid *LIAR* in the FACE of the historic FACTS and EVIDENCE, that ancient Egyptian RELIGIOUS practices, openly, and blatantly *WORSHIPPED* of a vast mutiplicity of *false* demonically FABRICATED *gods* which WAS the *CORE* of ALL ancient civilizations…”
You going overboard. Can you prove that I am a “vicious, malicious, reprehensible, putrid *LIAR*”? Can you prove that your god is the one and only? Can you prove that your god is not fabricated?
I THINK NOT! And who makes that the “vicious, malicious, reprehensible, putrid *LIAR*”? Even if your god was the Creator, in the absence of evidence I am sure it would make you the “vicious, malicious, reprehensible, putrid *LIAR*”. The most you can say is “I believe.”
On the other hand, I am not claiming anything about any god. There is nothing that exists without the Creator and we are all the Creator. Just that your god does not qualify to be the Creator and is not. Like me, all you have is a belief. Now we can argue until the cows come home and we will never be able to prove any of it. So hold your peace. Get ahold of yourself; be at peace with yourself.
@Dic………You are so damn funny, ya killing ma. What am I wriggling out of?
So glad to see that you still have time to look in, while being elsewhere, passing bye! Sounds like you’re in a cirCuss with Zoe!
@Zoe………You trying to chop off ROK’s ear because he won’t heed your ‘nonsense?’ Didn’t your Jesus tell Peter to put down his sword?
Aren’t you a christian?
Some how it seems that these words from I John chapter 2 are very relevant here.
2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
Onlookers:
As we saw earlier today, ROK has already admitted that his mind has been closed on the relevant subjects for some 30 years now.
This is very sad to read, of any person.
So, unfortunately, we must conclude that his comments just above are to be viewed not as open-minded, objectively well warranted contributions to a progressive fact and logic based dialogue, but instead as ideological advocacy, spreading what he thinks he knows, rather than seeking to discover the the credible, well warranted truth.
It is in this context — given the correctives again given to him today that he has insisted on ignoring — that we must look at his just now complaints against Zoe. For, plainly, Zoe could not have done his credibility any more damage than he, ROK has already done, by his voluntary declaration that his mind is closed.
Further, it is manifest that a closed mindset as has been declared is unable to objectively assess the true facts on Ancient Egypt, its religion and the challenges that attended to ancient pagan polytheism, and which were a major reason why the Christian Faith (and broader Monotheism) triumphed in the Classical world. For, it is plain that, especially from the 100’s – 300’s Egyptians in large numbers — along with other Roman world peoples from Bithynia to Rome, to Gaul/France, Spain and Britain, abandoned the old gods and their temples, seeking instead to find spiritual rescue and transformation in the risen Christ.
The struggles he seems to have to face what so basic a reference as a dictionary has to say, not to mention the related implications of a list of the gods of Egypt, are sadly emblematic.
Notwithstanding, Zoe, perhaps a bit of a gentler tone will be helpful too.
(Onlookers, I suspect there is a struggle to find a balance between people claiming not to understand the sort of level when the undersigned argues out a case at more or less College level, and the raw impact of saying many of the same things in more vernacular ways; which can then come across as very sharp. [Let us not forget that the Caribbean’s Creoles were born under rather harsh work conditions in the cane fields and sugar factories, so they are going to be pretty blunt. I am told Australian talk is similarly fairly raw.])
G’day again
D
Onlookers:
When caurght red handed, deny, deny deny.
Sorry Hopi, we know what our eyes have already told us.
Just look again at what you said about the Ashkenazim [I deliberately use the Hebraic form], the descendants of the Jews who settled in Europe, who are genetically proved by Y chromosome studies to be very close indeed to the Oriental Jews who never left the ME, and their Arab and Kurdish cousins. (It is on the mitochondrial — maternal DNA side that they have the strong diversity. Showing a pattern that Jewish men who were lucky enough to have descendants married local girls then preserved the covenant people through their descendants.)
G’day
D
Re
It is on the mitochondrial — maternal DNA side that they have the strong diversity. Showing a pattern that Jewish men who were lucky enough to have descendants married local girls then preserved the covenant people through their descendants.)
THIS IS SOLID BIOCHEMISTRY WELL KNOWN TO ALL ABOUT THE JEWS THAT CAN NOT BE DENIED!
@Georgie Porgie: “Some how it seems that these words from I John chapter 2 are very relevant here.
Just for clarification Mr. Georgie Porgie…
Do these words quoted by you not argue that any who question or disagree with these words (and these books) are “[the] antichrist”?
Please advise.
Mr Halshall:
You have some pretty serious acounting to do for remarks you made where we were not present.
I note you are trying to double down on a losing hand.
Not wise
G’day
D
Mr Halshall:
Now that you are here, kindly address the level playing field worldview warrant on comparative difficulties issues raised here on (Background tools) and here on (first phase comparative difficulties in light of WCTs 1 – 7) in succession.
I believe this should show just how I confidently affirm that I am not begging the worldview level question.
Thank you,
D
@Mr. Dictionary: “You have some pretty serious acounting to do for remarks you made where we were not present.
Are you arguing that I cannot speak without giving you advanced notice?
I don’t think so…
Everyone knows who I am. We (or at least, most) don’t know who you are.
Please serve your notice.
I look forward to discovery….
And, ROK:
Kindly cf here on [observe the PS] for a final corrective plea for reasonableness and civility on your part; with a specific note on points where you have willfully — after repeated corrections — asserted what you know or should know to be false about Zoe, GP and the undersigned, as well as other informed Christians.
Can you tell me what else one properly calls a willful false and intended to be damaging assertion other than a certain short word beginning with L and ending -ie, and/or a somewhat longer one beginning with S and immediately continuing with l, then ending “-ander”?
G’day
D
Mr Hallshall
I am saying tha tyo u have no right to do what you did: slander us behind our backs, using what you knew or should have known are blatantly strawman misrepresentations.
Now, you have been counter-challenged to address the specific reasn why I am claiming that my position is NOT a matter of circular assumptions, namely worldview level comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power.
And, you know or should know that.
G’day.
D
@Mr: Dictionary: “…a somewhat longer one beginning with S and immediately continuing with l, then ending “-ander”?
Without prejudice (personally knowing what the term actual means)…
@Mr: Dictionary…
I would advise you consult with your legal representative(s) about what the term “Slander” actually means and enables….
Mr Halshall:
Whether or not you like it, given what you asserted across in the Hijacking thread and as was pointed to here above, you are currently on trial in the courts of Civility, Character and Broughtupcy.
So far, by pretending that the issue is one for HM courts, you are pleading “defiantly guilty of incivility.”
That is telling.
Worse, having made the most stringent accusations, on being challenged on the merits to address it, all we are seeing is rhetorical dancing around and a collection of red herrings for dinner.
That is even more telling, as it suggests strongly that you knew that your remarks were false and damaging allegations, which you could not back up on the merits.
To redeem yourself, you need to start thinking about making some pretty serious amends for your misbehaviour.
I have a big pyroclastic flow to go deal with just now.
G’day
D
@Mr. Dictionary…
Why is it that you and yours are always so quick to press the reset button, and to change the rules?
Are you and yours not able to play an honest game?
The blogmaster invites you to join the discussion.