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@Dictionary
I suppose the only person with facts is you. OK Creator.
@GP
Really! Since you are the only person that knows the true facts, why the suspense?
Google it man You guys are googlers and wikipedia experts LOL
And I am not the only person that know the true facts…………obviously!
@Dictionary……. Had ‘god’ of the psalmist not been always good and merciful you nor your ilk won’t have been able to steal, lie, plagurise, kill…..and be forgiven only to do it again! Agree?
You see its only under Christ that your ‘sinful’ deeds are accommodated!
For while ‘he’ is good and his mercy endureth forever we have the other side of this duality where straight up ‘wickedness’ seem to be enduring as well!
Now how would you solve that since the christians get merciful forgiveness…what should the non-christians get? Or should we all just become christians and misbehave as we like and be forgiven by this merciful god?
Or maybe we should all live by ma’at where we are judge by our deeds and not by the grace of someone called Christ. In this way our feet would be held to the fire and we would have to live a ‘just, righteous’ life.
You are indeed correct ! WHO POSTS i.e the poster determines the quality of WHAT IS POSTED i.e the post! So reads and heed the posts of John Zoe Dictionary and GP. They make the most sense on this thread to me. โฆโฆah lie?
But in all fairness GP, when I read and dont understand, then I (me,Technician) post a question , only to be told that I am a scoffer and a mocker or that the question asked is not important (to whom?) …does that make sense??
Isn’t that being contradictory ?
Any how, no need to answer, I think I had enough of this thread, I will take what I have learnt with a pinch of salt and wish you guys a Happy and Prosperous New Year.
Techie
When you read and dont understand, I have not called you a mocker or scoffer, nor have I said that your question is not important. I have answered your questions, and I have generally always sought to answer the questions of those who seem to be genuine seekers or questioners.
I have often criticised you for attacking Dictionary and Zoe. Regardless to whether you like them as messengers, or whether you like thier style of delivery, in terms of Theology these men are sound interpreters of what the Bible teaches.
And contrary to the moronic mouthings of some, this can be ascertained accurately by diligent study and searching of the Scriptures. Too many people all over the world are interpreting the Word accurately that it is poosible to know the truth of what the Word is saying.
It is like when I listen to a heart. Is the first sound normal? Is the second sound normal? Are there other sounds that ought not to be heard? Its quite easy.
In cricket, you play foward or you play back or you dont play. Simple analysis.
in scripture the analysis is the same. Are my thoughts on scripture #1 lining up with what others scriptures say? If my thoughts dont line up with what other scriptures say, then I AM WRONG!
The Revelation of God in History
There IS a revelation of Almighty God SEEN in the history of the *Nations* of the world. The mysterious rise and *FALL* of nations indicates that somewhere behind the scenes IS a *Sovereign* hand, guiding, governing, controlling, raising up and casting down, the rulers of these nations.
Deuteronomy 32: 8 “When the Most High *divided* to the nations their inheritance, when HE *seperated* the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.”
Psalm 75: 7 “But God IS the judge: He putteth down one, and setteth up another.”
Daniel 4:32 “…The Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever He will.”
Acts 17: 26 “And hath made of ONE BLOOD ALL *NATIONS* of men for to dwell on ALL the face of the earth, and hath DETERMINED the times before APPOINTED, and the bounds of their habitation.” emphasis added.
Romans 13: 1 “…For there IS no POWER but God: The powers that be ARE ordained of God” emphasis added.
Almighty God, Our Sovereign Creator and Sustainer, HAS always been involved in human history. Following are some illustrations of God’s involvement IN the nations existing in Bible days.
a. God’s dealings ARE seen in the history of the nation of Egypt [Exodus 9-12; Romans 9:17; Jeremiah 46: 14-26; Ezekiel 29-30)
b. God caused the Assyrian Empire to FALL ( Isaiah 10: 12-19; Ezekiel 31; Nahum 3: 1-7).
c. God judged the Babylonian kingdom according to His prophetic Word. The drying up of the river Euphrates and the leaving open of the two leaved gates by which the Medo-Persian soldiers entered the city on the night of her FALL, attest to the *Sovereignty* of God. (Daniel 1-5; Jeremiah 50-51; Isaiah 47-48; 45: 1-5).
d. The Medo-Persian Empire came under the JUDGMENT of Almighty God in due time (Isa. 44:24-45; 1-7; Daniel 2; Daniel 7).
e. The Grecian Empire collapsed IN God’s ordered time ( Dan. 8: 1-25; 11: 1-35).
f. Almighty God foretold through Daniel the rise of the Roman Empire. It ALSO FELL at the appointed time. (Dan 7:7, 23; 9:24-27).
g. The history of Israel IS one of the most remarkable revelations of Almighty God in history. Taken as a nation from the midst of the nations (Deut 4: 34-40) it was brought into *covenantal* relationship with the Lord at Mt. Sinai. The revelation of God in the Tabernacle of Moses, the Aaronic and Levitical priesthood, the sacrificial system, the feast, and above ALL, the moral and civiil laws given to them ARE all evidence that the unseen God was involved in the history of this nation. [Exodus 19-40; Leviticus 1-9] The preservation of the nation of Israel IS also a remarkable TESTIMONY to the FACT that this unseen Hand guides the destinies of the peoples of earth. (Esther 1-10) Israel REMAINS TODAY as an indicator of the presence of the Soveriegn Hand of Almighty God.
The Bible is a book of recorded miracles from Genesis to Revelation and ITS greatest miracle IS the RESURRECTION of Christ. Just as counterfeit miracles reveal the presence and power of Satan, so the geniune miracles attest to the presence of and power of Almighty God. The purpose of counterfeit miracles is to DECEIVE and turn men from God. The purpose of true miracles IS to bless and turn men to God. Miracles, both ancient and modern ARE specific revelations of God’s power and motivation in dealing with mankind.
The Revelation of God in Prophecy.
There are two types of prophecy; preaching and prediction. Though both are inspired and reveal the Word of God, the prediction of future events is the easiest to illustrate.
a. The falls of nations were FORETOLD by the prophets and came TO PASS years after their utterance with AMAZING ACCURACY.
[1] The fall of Assyria was prophesied
Ezekiel 31.
[2] The fall of Babylon was foretold in
Jeremiah 50-51 and Isaiah 47-48.
[3] The fall of Egypt as a nation was predicted in Ezekiel 30-31.
[4] The fall of the Grecian Empire was prophesied in Daniel 8.
b. The coming of Christ was foretold by the prophets. There were about 300 hundred prophecies to be FULFILLED within the short life time of Christ, and most of these HAD to find fulfillment in the LAST FEW hours of His life. These prophecies HAD been foretold over a 1,000 years by different writers. They seemed to be impossible to fulfill. YET, Almighty God IN Christ FULFILLED them in great DETAIL.
[1{ Christ was to be the seed of the woman (Genesis 3:15; Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1: 20-23.
[2] Christ was to be the seed of Abraham (Genesis 12: 1-3; Matt. 1:1)
[3] Christ was to be of Tribe of Judah (Gen. 49:10; Heb. 7:14)
[4] Christ was to be born at Bethlehem (Micah 5:2; Matt 2:6)
[5] Christ was to be anointed by the Spirit (Isa. 61: 1-2; Lk 4: 18-20)
[6] Christ was to minister life and healing ( Isa. 35; Matt 8)
[7] Christ was to ride into Jerusale, upon an ass (Zech 11: 12-13; Matt 26: 15)
[8] Christ was to be sold for thirty pieces of silver (Zech 11: 12-13; Matt 26: 15)
[9] Christ was to suffer the crucifixion (Psa 22; Isa 53; Matt 27)
[10] Christ was to rise from the dead, ascend to heaven and sit at the Father’s right hand in King-Priestly ministry (Psa. 16; 110; Matt 22: 43-45).
The Revelation of God in Christ
The general revelations of God in nature, (NOT pantheism) as God IS not in the created things He made, as He transcends them), conscience and history are INSUFFICIENT in that they DO NOT reveal God’s person. The special revelations of God in miracles and prophecy are also INSUFFICIENT, in that they only reveal certain of His attributes, BUT, not His entire person hood. With all this, there still existed the NEED for a more PERSONAL revelation of Almighty God. This need God met IN CHRIST. Christ IS the sum total of the *revelation* of Almighty God, including His *Will* His *Nature* His *Person* and *Character* To look at Jesus Christ IS to look at Almighty God, for Christ IS the expressed Revelation of God in human form.
John 1: 1, 14 ‘In the BEGINNING was the WORD (Jesus) and the WORD was God; and the WORD was made flesh and dwelt among us…”
John 1:18 “No man hath seen God at any time, the ONLY begotten Son, which IS in the bosom of the FATHER, He hath DECLARED HIM.”
Colossians 1: 15 “WHO IS the image of the invisible God.”
Hebrews 1: 1-3 “God…hath in these LAST DAYS spoken unto US by His Son…the EXPRESS IMAGE of His Person.”
(Read also Matthew 11: 17; John 14:9; Colossians 2: 9; II Cor 4: 3-6; Romans 16: 25-26; Amos 3:7; II Tim 3: 15-16).
The Lord Jesus Christ IS the *ultimate* revelation of Almighty God, because HE IS GOD.
The Revelation of God in Scripture.
The revelation of God In Christ IS the revelation of the Living Word – the Word made flesh. The revelation of God in Scripture IS the written Word – the Word inspired and recorded. Because of the various means of revelation, especially in the realm of miracles, spoken prophecy, and Jesus Christ Himself, there was a need of a *written* revelation as a *universal* expression, which would be available for ALL MANKIND. There was a need of some revelation that could be given to ALL THE NATIONS, which would correspond EXACTLY with the Christ of God. This REVELATION IS contained in the Bible. The Scriptures were INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit, and thus in them we have an infallible revelation of the nature, being, and will of God.
The Revelation of God in Personal Experience.
The fact that Almighty God HAS given a revelation of Himself, indicates that HE intended man to RECEIVE it. Man, being made in the image and likeness of God, has been given the mental and spiritual capacity to receive revelation from His Creator. However, the intellectual and spiritual parts of man’s being have to come under the *illuminating* influence of the Holy Spirit in order to be able to RECEIVE the revelation of God. (I Cor. 2:12). The Lord Jesus opened the understanding of the disciples and also breathed His Spirit into their spirits, thus quickening their mental and spiritual capacity for KNOWING God. (Luke 24: 44-45; John 20:22).
The purpose of all the revelation of God, is that man many come to KNOW God in a personal way. It is NOT enough for men to say they know God in nature, conscience, history, miracles or prophecy. This IS NOT enough. Man must come to KNOW God in an *Experiential* way. From the fall of man unto this day, there have been MILLIONS of people from all over the nations, who have KNOWN God in a personal way, through the Lord Jesus Christ. (The Foundations of Christian Doctrine, pp. 16-19) emphasis added.
By the way Techie I dont think you are a scoffer. You might be a good boy who has gone of the straight and narrow.
I will remind you as my mo m did for several years—- and you know this too HE THAT KNOWETH THE WILL OF GOD AND DOETH IT NOT SHALL BE BEATEN WITH MANY STRIPES.
Now some twit will call that fear mongering. But that is the word of God, and I have personally found this tobe true.
As my graanie often said to me as a wee boy DO NOT FOLLOW THE MULTITUDE THE DO EVIL.
Keep preaching… We get it now
No queries from the congregation
Just total silence and obedience
@Zoe……. Should I conclude that you and your ‘righteous’ ilk belong in that other 1/10th category?
@Tech………You safe staying off that straight and narrow, hear! Because on that road you have no room to even peep over the fence to see if what’s going on the other side is better or more righteous than that straight and narrow. Here, on the S&N you are NOT allowed to think for yourself.
No Kiki
You got it all wrong man. You have not got it at all!
This is how it is.
The members of the bat cave are ALL WRONG………in fact they are crazy luntics….too much learning has made them mad!
The bat cave loonies are to learn new and conflicting information in total silence, and BECOME FLEXIBLE. They must not stand on the foundation of the FACTS THAT LEAD TO THIER FAITH. They are to BECOME FLEXIBLE and learn from the UNLEARNED.
How can men who have never SEARCHED OR STUDIED THE SCRIPTURES TEACH THE SCRIPTURES? (sorry as you said …..No queries from the congregation, Just total silence and obedience….but this applies only to the loonies from the Bat Cave) Ah lie?
Now IVE GOT IT. Thanks!
Now you may laugh me to scorn and mock me as much as you like, but I believe and hold tenaciously to these truths about the LORD JESUS CHRIST, GOD’s UNIQUE SON, as declared in the Holy Scriptures .
I have done so since 1970, and still do.
HIS VIRGIN BIRTH
HIS VIRTUOUS LIFE
HIS VICARIOUS SUFFERING
HIS VICTORIOUS RESURRECTION
HIS VINDICATIVE ASCENSION
HIS VITAL SESSION
HIS VISIBLE RETURN
The poem below by Anne Richter expresses the brief outline of the Doctrine of Christ I learned way back in 1970. I love to sing it to Monkโs tune Credo.
We saw Thee not when Thou didst come
To this poor world of sin and death;
Nor yet beheld Thy cottage home,
In that despisรจd Nazareth.
But we believe Thy footsteps trod
Its streets and plains, Thou Son of God.
But we believe Thy footsteps trod
Its streets and plains, Thou Son of God.
We did not see Thee lifted high,
Amid that wild and savage crew;
Nor heard Thy meek, imploring cry,
โForgive, they know not what they do!โ
Yet we believe the deed was done,
That shook the earth and veiled the sun.
But we believe the deed was done,
Which shook the earth and veiled the sun.
We stood not by the empty tomb,
Where late Thy sacred body lay;
Nor sat within that upper room,
Nor met Thee on the open way.
But we believe that angels said,
โWhy seek the living with the dead?โ
We did not mark the chosen few,
When Thou didst through the clouds ascend,
First lift to Heaven their wondering view,
Then to the earth all prostrate bend;
But we believe that mortal eyes
Beheld that journey to the skies;
And now that Thou dost reign on high,
And thence Thy waiting people bless,
No ray of glory from the sky
Doth shine upon our wilderness;
But we believe Thy faithful Word,
And trust in our redeeming Lord;
This is my choice.
You can make your choice.
I am not here to force or coerce or beg or plead with any one to chose like I have. But if we are dicussing Bible it MUST be RIGHTLY DIVIDED, or I like others will (as commanded) earnestly contend for the faith (Gk pistis).
Onlookers:
The above is all too sadly telling.
For almost two days now, I have laid out a specifc level playing field framework for addressing the worldview level challenge that underlies the debates and rhetorical points in this thread.
And, along the way I and others have soundly corrected many factual errors and misinterpretations or misunderstandings on the relevant history of the scriptures and the meaning of its key words, teachings and concepts.
It is plain that the substance above cannot be gainsaid, but of course it can be ignored or distorted and dismissed.
So, onlooker, please do not fall into the trap of following red herrings led off to slander-soaked strawman distortions.
(Let’s make an analogy: If you were in Mr Persaud’s or Mrs Doran’s or Mr King’s 6th form math class circa 1976 right next to the killer spiral staircase and you were called up to present the answer to a tough Calculus problem, would you waffle around and try to say something about who is what in the class? And, if you were sitting in the back, next to Johnny S of fragrant memory [he passed on young . . . ] would you be complaining that the one who presented a good attempt was trying to pretend that he was the only one with the facts and the logic? Or, would you not be trying to learn HOW he was able to solve what you done bus’ your brains on last night for two hours and couldn’t get moved?)
ROK and Hopi: For shame!
Do betta dan dat.
Why not reset, reboot and start again, by addressing the fundamental, level-playing field worldview comparative difficulties issues, with the key self evident truths and first principles of right reason. For, that is where it has to start, if you are going to have a sound basis.
G’day for now
D
Okay thanks
give thanks..
So Much Things To Say
hey got so much things to say right now;
They got so much things to say.
Eh! But I’ll never forget no way: they crucified Je-sus Christ;
I’ll never forget no way: they stole Marcus Garvey for rights.
Oo-ooh!
I’ll never forget no way: they turned their back on Paul Bogle.
Hey-ey!
So don’t you forget (no way) your youth,
Who you are and where you stand in the struggle.
They go so very, so very, so very, so very, so very, so very,
So very, so very, so very, so very, so very –
Everything they say – so much to say.
They got so much things to say, so much things to say. (*)
(*)=Bob Marley/Wailers
Interesting exchange:
Technician:
“But in all fairness GP, when I read and dont understand, then I (me, Technician) post a question, only to be told that I am a scoffer and a mocker or that the question asked is not important (to whom?)”
GP:
“Techie, When you read and dont understand, I have not called you a mocker or scoffer, nor have I said that your question is not important. I have answered your questions, and I have generally always sought to answer the questions of those who seem to be genuine seekers or questioners.”
Wonder then what it is that Technician was reading? Is Technician telling lies on somebody?
PS: Hopi, it so happens I personally have known a man who was formerly E Kingston, Ja’s most dangerous gunman. He was captured and was sent to Gun Court, where he was a leader of a planned breakout attempt. But, one day a little old lady came by preaching the gospel to these hardened criminals. The Spirit of God broke through supernaturally to his man, and he repented. Days later, his former fellows in the escape plot tried to attack him, only to run into an invisible shield protecting him. After that, he taught himself to read, and began a mini school right there in Gun Court for the other inmates, then one day with O levels and JSC’s in hand boldly walked up to the Warden and asked to go to CAST, since the Gun Court was supposed to be about rehabilitation, not just safely locking away dangerous and destructive men behind razor wire and machine guns [yes, just like in the movies]. For a year, he walked out of Gun Court every morning with bus fare and lunch money to go to College in Engineering, under a solid man of God, Dr Alfred Sangster. Evenings, he returned to his cell, to study. After a year, he was released, and became a Vice President of the UCCF chapter on that College; which is how I met him. He went on to serve God, totally transformed by the power of the gospel, from the most dangerous gunman in E Kingston to the Evangelist the devil was trying to keep you away from. I hope you are therefore properly and fully ashamed of your mocking comments above.
“But we BELIEVE that mortal eyes
beheld that journey to the sky.”
OMG, We believe, we believe since we don’t know.
But how about this one
“Truth crushed to earth, shall rise again,
The eternal years of God are hers;
But Error, wounded, writhes with pain,
And dies among his worshippers.”
Now isn’t that better?
@Dic…….Don’t forget that its your side that’s waffling around and saying nuttin about who is what and its your side that’s complaining and pretending to have the facts and logic. We don’t need to hurt our heads….its already etched in stone for us!
Ah lie?
Dictionary gets the mark of the beast
666 Comments… your out! begone satan!
PPS: Anonny, T – as I can testify from having had to sharply correct him on spreading slander from an irresponsible commenter in Jamaica — sometimes does one or the other. Others, unfortunately, are straight mockery 100% of the time.
PPPS: Hopi, when you know, you believe — knowledge (as already explained just ignored onlookers) being warranted, credibly true belief. That is part of why you need to deal with the already linked on worldviews analysis, to set a clear and coherent basis for serious thought. And, the above and onward linked will show — in many ways — that I am precisely not waffling, despite what you would wish were the case. And, I do not know any otehr way to learn phil startying from being a captivated denizen of a Plato’s Cave world, other than by hurting head, heart, eyes, and feelings bigtime as you are forced to challenge the most treasured presumptions and assumptions and ideas. It hurts, it is very hard intellectually and emotionally to take on, makes your head spin at first, and it is potentially dangerous to your health — just ask Socrates’ ghost — but in the end it is worth it. And, that is exactly what I have openly told my students. And, it is vital:
Jn 3:19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”
Better to die a free man or woman than to live even in gilded chains of deception and evil.
ROK
Here is what you say when you use the words โthe bible isโ
โLet us put it this way, even if it was the absolute truth, the fact that you donโt have any proof, makes anyone who claims that the bible is absolute truth is probably the biggest liar in the world.โ
โAll this intellectual dishonesty in the face of solid evidence that the bible is a plagiarism of the Egyptian religion.โ
โI tell you, the lack of evidence to support anything in the bible is blaring.โ
โThe only credit you could have from the bible is the fact that it was carefully crafted to enslave the whole world and just as you stole the religious principles of the Egyptians and their ancestors, so have this christianity been stealing tithes from poor people as if they are entitled to poor peopleโs labour and money; calling it divine decree.โ
โIt does not take away from the fact that the bible is a book of plagiarism.โ
Here is what you say when you use the words โgod isโ together.
โI urge every reader to find out for themselves who is god. Donโt stop asking the question. One thing for sure, god is real, but he is really not who we think he is; certainly not all-powerful and certainly does not and will not live forever.โ
โBoth the old and new testaments were written by man and this talk of man being inspired by god is a fallacy.โ
โIt may not happen today, but it is inevitable that in years to come, the bible will fall into disrepute an we will wonder how men could have been so foolish as to have ever believed a word of that thing. It is also important that god is put in perspective. A lot of what is portrayed as coming from god is nothing more than an insult to that race and nothing but the harsh reality will do.โ
โOf course you donโt realise that your god is but on of the self same demon-backed godsโ
โThe stories out of the old testament bible bear a striking similarity to the religious beliefs of the Ancients and the god is of the same belligerent character and dreadness as the ancient gods.โ
โOne thing for sure, god is real, but he is really not who we think he is; certainly not all-powerful and certainly does not and will not live forever.โ
โBoth the old and new testaments were written by man and this talk of man being inspired by god is a fallacyโ
โA lot of what is portrayed as coming from god is nothing more than an insult to that race and nothing but the harsh reality will do.โ
Then you ask the question โFinally, if I say that the bible is a plagiarism of Ancient Religion, how then can I be against its principles and even the stories.โ?
A simple answer is go read what you wrote and see if what you say would not cause any reasonable person to conclude that in fact, you are against the principles of the Bible and even the stories.
Enough Biblical verses are on this thread that you would not have to extend yourself.
Just compare some of what you say with them.
โฆ. but, come to think of it โฆ
You have probably asked yourself this question on numerous occasions and not unexpectedly got the same answer.
Donโt be surprised when you put this question to reasonable people that you will get the complete opposite answer.
It really seems to me โฆ.
โฆโฆ.. that you are using your assertion that the Bible is a plagiarism of ancient religions โฆ.
โฆ.. to prove the existence of those ancient religions to yourself โฆ..
โฆ.. and then saying to yourself that โฆ..
โฆ.. since the ancient religions existed (proved from the plagiarism in the Bible that exists in your mind) โฆ.
โฆ.. and the Bible was copied from them, (proved from the plagiarism in the Bible that exists in your mind) โฆ..
โฆโฆ that it follows that the Bible cannot be the Word of God.
Reasonable people will not accept the convoluted logic you have used to convince yourself of the truth of your primary assertion.
Monotheism vs polytheism โฆ.
Iโll give this to you though.
You certainly have done a good job convincing (brainwashing) yourself as is shown by the unshakeable strength of your convictions.
“A weaker vessel” (as FNAF would say from time to time) would accept your logic if only because of the strength of your convictions.
@Dic………..Did E.Kingston grow up in the church?
John your obviously a reasonable and logical man and a good apologist, and you have exposed Mr King in his folly.
I tip my hat to you, for I do not even try anymore to followhis dishobest convoluted rhetoric, because bovine excrement is just that bovine excrement. And this does not have to do with being on the other side of the arguement.
I often disagree with men like Annonymous and Not saved and BAFBFP, and my boy Techie, but these men come with information or with reasonable questions. Not with just plain rubbish. I will not use my brain cells to sort rubbish.
Watch him come and cuss me again, but I havebeen immune to his bovine excrement since about March or April last year.
I find you nit pickers so hilarious. None of you have been able to refute any of the Scriptures presented on this thread.
None of you have been able to refute the history or logic or philosophy presented by Dictionary.
But you are good at commenter on the little trivial things that your seemibgly small intellects that comprehend. always trying to attack and discredit- but always on trivia.
Its good entertainment! What a waste of free education!
@GP
“I find you nit pickers so hilarious. None of you have been able to refute any of the Scriptures presented on this thread.”
Have you been able to prove any of it?
@Zoe, GP, or Dic……How is it that there are different stories pertaining the resurrection? Luke said he rose on and ascended on the 3rd day, but Acts says that he ascended to heaven after the 40th day? How could this be so different?
Hopi
Recall that Luke wrote both Luke & Acts.
Also Luke does not say that Jesus both arose and ascended on the SAME or 3rd day….and you know it!
Lets stir up this thread on issues concerning the SECOND COMING OF CHRIST WITH AN EXCERPT FROM MY DMin Thesis on CITIES THEIR ORIGINS AND THEIR END
CITIES THEIR ORIGINS AND THEIR END part 1
An important issue that arises in this segment of the Bible is the origination of cities by Cain in Genesis 4:17. Ever since he founded the first city and called it after his son Enoch, evil men have been attracted to cities throughout the long history of the world.
Whereas holiness flourishes in blessed association with God alone, sin, which is denial of God and rebellion against Him, thrives best in society, as the misery it causes loves company (Romans 1:18-32).
The next city mentioned in the Bible is Babylon. This city was established by Nimrod for the purpose of defying God (Genesis 10:8-10; 11:1-9), and became the fountain head or spring of idolatry and all the pagan systems which have prevailed in the world to this day.
All of these sins will reach their fullest development in the Babylon of the end time, for then, Babylon will be the city toward which all the nations on earth will be looking for Satanโs instructions.
From his world capital, and headquarters at Babylon, the devil will issue the edicts that will control both the form of religious observances and worship of himself (Revelation17:2,5,18), as well as those which affect the political and commercial activities and governance of the nations (Revelation 18:2-3).
The origin of cities and their association with communal sin and idolatry, and mystery religions began as pointed out in Genesis 4 and 11; their doom and rapid demise is promised and described in Revelation 17-18.
The scripture is thus seen not only to be bountifully filled with myriad of promises, but also to be beautifully balanced in its design and lay out as literature.
This is a precious promise that is presented to all lovers of good literature, who would study its pages intensely, diligently, prayerfully, honestly, and systematically.
Let us then, now discern the promises in Scripture concerning the destruction of the corruption of city life, as represented in the doom of Babylon described in Revelation 17-18.
A right division of these chapters reveals that the Babylon of that day will be both a city and a system. The city will represent the system of sin and the rebellion against God which is bred therein, and which emanates there from.
It is imperative to recognize that the system of sin in Babylon represented by the city as described in Revelation 17-18 is both a religious system and a political system that is intertwined.
It seems from Revelation 17:2, that there will be a universal merger of church and state universally as existed generally before the Reformation. This should allow the discerning to differentiate it from the organism and organization of the genuine church, which was always intended from its inception to be separate from the state, and which has obeyed God in this respect.
This should also allow the discerning to realize that this movement is well on the way in the Eccumenical Movement, and via organizations like Promise Keepers etc.
The true church will be raptured and translated to heaven, but the unified false religious systems of this chaotic cosmos will be destroyed ultimately by God along with the political system with which it is associated in evil.
In Revelation 17-18 the judgment of this dual or twin system is therefore presented as a description of judgment of the city of Babylon. It is noteworthy that the judgment of the system is presented as the judgment of the city.
We must also appreciate that though these judgments occur simultaneously, the emphasis in chapter 17 is on the destruction of its religious system, whereas the destruction of its political system is stressed in chapter 18.
It is also to be noted here, that the judgment described in chapters 17 and 18 are an expansion of the seventh vial (16:17-21), and occurs simultaneously with the events of chapter 19 which is an expansion of the sixth vial (16:12-16).
CITIES : THEIR ORIGINS AND THEIR END part 2
In the Babylon of yore, only the initiated were permitted to know its mysteries, as Satan sought successfully to delude mankind with an imitation of the truth.
Within a thousand years the evil spawned in Babylon had spread throughout the world in the pagan form of worship which bore the same symbols although under different names, such as Isis and Horus, Aphrodite, Eros, Venus and Cupid. End time Babylon will surpass this wickedness.
One notes in Revelation 17:3-4 that the contents of the golden cup in the hands of the harlot who represents apostate Christendom contains abominations, and filthiness of her fornication etc., and that she was guilty of drunkenness by the blood of murdered saints of God.
In addition, it is to be noted that this religious harlot will exert a powerful influence over the revived fourth world empire of Rome. The discerning know well that this trend has already begun as predicted in 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 3:5-7; 4:3-4 etc.
The identity of the location of end time Babylon is difficult. Many Bible scholars insist that old Babylon will be rebuilt and judged in the very place it originated. Others posit that Rome is the Babylon of the end time, since Daniel 2 clearly teaches that the fourth world empire of Daniel 2, the Roman Empire, will be revived in the last days.
Although Old Testament prophecy declares that the old city of Babylon will not be rebuilt, many believe that in the end time Babylon could be built near by, just as the New Testament Jericho, and the modern Jericho were both rebuilt in different locations, not far from the ancient site, despite the fact that God had also predicted that the original Jericho would not be rebuilt.
Some assert that a good reason to believe that Babylon (once the fountainhead of empire and false religion) will flourish again in an even greater way in the end time, is because the Bible says that there will be a city in the end time located near the site of the old city of Babylon, and that this city will be named Babylon.
Others posit that with modern machinery to facilitate and to speed the task, that it is not physically impossible for a world capital to be rapidly erected somewhere on the plains of Shinar in the Middle East.
Another group argues that just as it was the habit of great monarchs to want cities of their own construction built for their capitals, that since the pride and arrogance of Antichrist will surpass that of any monarch ever to precede him, that it is very likely that he will also want his own city.
In addition, the prophecy of Zechariah suggests that evil will be removed to that location and will be judged in the place of its origin (Zechariah 5:5-11).
Revelation 17:1-2 calls attention to the destruction of the religious system of end time Babylon by referring to “the judgment of the great whore.”
We know that we are correct in this interpretation, because in the Book of Revelation, the figure of a woman is used to symbolize religion. This is exemplified by Jezebel representing the pagan idolatry of the past (2:20), the sun-clothed woman representing Israel (12:1), the bride of Christ representing the church (21:9; 19:7-8), and the great whore representing the false church, consisting of all apostate religion after the church has been translated (19:2).
The judgment of the great whore is really an indirect providential judgment of God against apostate religion, which he executes via the agency of the Antichrist and the ten kings, at the zenith of Antichristโs power in the midst of the week (Revelation 17:12,16-17).
Having by then gained his objective by using false religion, Antichrist discards and seeks its destruction as he now seeks to exalt himself to the place of deity and worship for the last three and one-half years of the tribulation period.
We again stress that this religious system is localized and centered in a city (vv. 5, 18), suggesting that this great religious system has moved the office of its government to the capital city of the world empire
Because the Bible speaks of seven mountains on which the woman sits, many identify the harlot with the Roman Catholic Church. However, since mountains in prophecy usually denote empire or kingdoms, it is clear that the religious system described here is far greater than the Roman Catholic system.
This extensive and elaborate ecclesiastical organization of the end time is universal in scope and includes all segments of Catholicism, all segments of liberal and apostate Protestantism together with the diverse array of cults, apostate Judaism and the great pagan religions of the world.
It is possible that the Roman Catholic Church will provide its very highly developed system as the outward superstructure and organization for this great conglomeration of false religion.
The trend now in evidence within all segments of organized religion indicates that this merger is already well entrenched, thereby facilitating the interpretation of this chapter in our day.
CITIES : THEIR ORIGINS AND THEIR END part 3
The phrase “sitteth upon many waters” (vv. 1, 15) denotes the extent of the world-wide or universality of the scope of influence covered by the great whore.
The sway of the beast and the woman is world-wide (v. 15), and all peoples and tongues and tribes and nations are included under their control.
The phrase “the wine of her fornication”(vv. 2) suggests the nature of her influence. As the political powers join with the great whore in an unholy alliance for the sake of existence, they will drink so deeply of this wine of corruption that in their drunken stupor they will lose all sense of balance, perspective, and reality.
The power and influence of the great whore is suggested by the fact that she sits upon a scarlet colored beast” (v.3).
Having turned aside from the green pastures provided by the Lord, the harlot is content to dwell in the wilderness or desert. Her power is so extensive that Antichrist will allow her to ride him for the sake of the advantage he will gain in his bid for power during the first three and one-half years of the tribulation.
The power of false religion over the state will be supreme, and the state religion will receive financial, political and military protection.
Whereas the early church fought against the control of the church by the state that came about under Constantine, and whereas the Reformists moved away from state church, we are currently witnessing a movement back towards the eventual formation of a church state that will control until it is eventually judged as described in Revelation 17-19.
The extent of the wealth of the apostate church may be gauged by the fact that it is “decked with gold and precious stones” (v.4), and arrayed in purple, suggesting royalty; clothed in scarlet, and attractively decked with jewels, indicating the wealth she has gained in religious traffic; and holding a cup full of abominations and filthiness, all that she has to offer to the millions of her devotees.
Secrecy and mystery has always been associated with false religion, and will remain so to the end time as a lure from which people will be unable to escape.
Consequently, the mystery of the influence of the apostate church of the end time is clearly stated as: “Mystery, Babylon the Great” (v. 5). This harlot will be the mother of the entire brood of iniquity that will encompass the earth as in the pre-deluvian civilization.
Verse six describes the appalling influence of such false religion, as being “drunken with the blood of the saints” (v.6).
False religion has made both Old Testament saints and New Testament witnesses for Christ pay with their lives, and as victims of bitter violence. However, the intensity of the persecution during the first half of the tribulation will exceed anything known to man, and amazed the apostle John.
The beast is identified as the first beast of chapter 13, who possessed seven heads and ten horns (v.7), who made war with the Saints (11:7; 13:7), and who was wondered at by those whose names are not in the book of life (13:3-4; 17:8).
He is the beast that was, and is not, and yet is (13:3; 11:7; 17:8). He is both a kingdom and a person (17:9-11). His career marked by the course of empire (v. 11).
We are told in verse 12 that seven heads are seven mountains. We know from several Old Testament passages that mountains refer to governments or kingdoms.
Some passages denote the government of God (Isaiah 2:2; 11:9; 30:29; Daniel 2:35), while others refer to the governments of men (Amos 4:1; 6:1). In this passage, we are told that the mountains refer to ” seven kings” (v.10), and that “Five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come” (v. 10).
In addition, the seventh mountain is personalized and referred to by the pronoun “he” (v.10). It is probable that the seven great kingdoms of history are in mind here: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and revived Rome.
The kingdoms are represented by seven kings (v. 10). The beast, Antichrist, is the seventh. He dies and comes to life again and thus becomes the eighth.
We note in verses 12-13 that the beast becomes involved in an alliance with ten kings, who in the revived Roman Empire join together with Antichrist.
The ten horns might be the ten kings predicted by Daniel 7:24. However verse 12 seems to indicate that we may not be able to identify these players until the beast is identified, and himself receives his power and authority.
What is clear is that these kings will unite with the beast, and that the culmination of this alliance with the ten kings (the ten horns) is war against the Lamb (v. 14), who overcomes this confederacy of the end time at Armageddon.
The final battle of this conflict is recorded in Revelation 19. Not only is it declared that the beast and the ten kings make war with the Lamb (17:14), but also all the other kings of the earth under the leadership of the beast (19:19).
This making war against the Lamb might mean making war with Israel, at the end time, or that the pride and self-sufficiency of Antichrist will reach such heights that he attempts to fight against the Son of God directly.
Revelation 17:16-18 demonstrates how God will permit one evil power to destroy one anยฌother and thus perform His will as the whore is destroyed. God will put it into the hearts of the ten kings to destroy her (v. 17).
This will not be an immediate, but a providential, judgment of God. Once God’s will has been carried out, later He will destroy the ten kings along with Antichrist.
The immediate source of judgment is the hatred of the ten kings (v. 16). The beast and his vassal kings will only submit to the domination of false religion that they might gain their own ends.
Since there is no love between them, and since each is using the other as a tool, when the opportunity arrives, the ten kings will in an act of treachery destroy the woman- the apostate church.
The result of this act is significant (v. 16) in that the woman will be made “desolate,” meaning that all political and commercial support will be withdrawn, and she will stand absolutely alone, and naked as the outward display that made her so attractive is taken away.
The apostate church will have nothing to hide her from the gazing multitude, nothing to obscure the vision, nothing to distort the absolute truth.
It is noteworthy that there will be short separation of church again at this point in time, as God puts into the heart of the politicians to destroy the apostate church, and the existing religious systems of the world at that time.
We are told in verse 18 that the kings will “eat her flesh” in the sense of confiscating the vast stores of wealth she has accumulated through the years.
They will then “burn her with fire,” thus bringing complete destruction and abolition of religion, according the proper end for a harlot as detailed in Leviticus 21:9).
John ends this chapter by reminding us that the woman is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth (v.18). While this is a religious System, it is also a city that represents the whole system.
The prophet Isaiah in speaking to Israel referred to a principle which God used to *progressively* reveal doctrine in Scripture. In Isaiah 28: 9-13, he sets forth the question, the answer and the method of divine instruction.
The Question: “Whom shall He teach knowledge?”
The Anwer: “Them that are weaned from MILK, and drawn from the breast.”
The Method: “For the Word of the Lord was unto them…PRECEPT upon PRECEPT: PRECEPT upon PRECEPT; LINE upon LINE, LINE upon LINE; here a LITTLE, there a LITTLE..” emphasis added.
This may be said to be God’s method of teaching doctrine. God did not give the full revelation of Himself at once. From Adam to Moses, a period of approximately 2500 years, there WAS no written Word, or recorded revelation of God in Scripture form. The promises of redemption were in the hearts and mouths of the patriarchs, while the heavens declared the Gospel story in its signs. (Genesis 1: 14-19); Psalms 19: 1-6) God inspired Moses to write the Pentateuch, Genesis through Deuternomy, covering the period of 2500 years from Adam to Moses. Later, the history of Israel under Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and the kings of Israel and Judah was recorded in the writings of the historical and prophetical books, from Joshua through to Malachi.
The thirty-nine books of the Old Testament took approximately 1100 years to record. No one patriarch, prophet, priest, kimg or saint ever received the whole doctrine of God at once; BUT, each received “precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little and there a little” until the whole of the Old Testament revelation was completed. Hebrews 1: 1-2 tells us “God, who at sundry times (Old Testament times), and in divers manners (in many portions, many ways, fragmentary manners), spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these LAST DAYS spoken unto us by His Son…”God communicated His mind and Word in Old Testament times by signs, shadows, types, ensamples, figures, allegory, dreams and visions, angelic manifestation and prophetic voice.
In the New Testament times the doctrinal revelation came through Jesus Christ, God’s Son, and then through the Apostles (John 1: 1-3; 14-18; Acts 2:42; Ephesians 3: 1-6). The finality of God’s revelation and doctrinal instruction IS in Christ. He is THE ORACLE (the speaking place) of God (Hebrews 5:12; Romans 3:2; I Peter 4:11). It is no wonder then that the New Testament Canon of 27 books was completed within the first century, in contrast to the 1100 years it took to complete the Old Testament.
Though a compilation of many books, the Bible IS to be viewed as one harmonious WHOLE with TRUTH being progressively revealed throughout. Each book is part of the whole, and CANNOT be understood apart from its relation to the whole.
The way God progressively revealed truth in Scripture clearly suggest tne way in which the Bible student should handle the doctrine of Scripture; bringing together ALL that the Bible has to say on the subject to formulate the doctrine of it and arrange the elements of that doctrine into a systematic order. All doctrine MUST arise out of and be founded firmly upon the only absolute authority in man’s possession, the inspired and infallible Word of God. (The Foundations of Christian Doctrine, pp.11,12) emphasis added.
There IS NO human way possible, that such a variety of men, from different backgrounds, educational, etc., over a PERIOD of 1100 years, could HAVE put together SUCH absolutely AMAZING revelation, dealing specifically with a new nation of people, Israel, outlining a PURPOSE and PLAN, for the ultimate Redemption of ALL mankind, beginning in Genesis, the seed of the woman, then through the seed of Abraham, the father of Israel, and ALL others from every nation on earth, WHO, by FAITH, would find forgiveness, cleansing, Redemption and the *GIFT* of Eternal Life, in the ONE, whose human flesh, would ULTIMATELY come through that ancient seed of PROMISE; ALL fulfilled, EXACTLY as prophecied IN the New Testament!
And, to imagine, that the ‘scoffers’ are ignorant enough, to be so insane, and say that ALL of this revelation, so minutely fulfilled, was concocted by MAN! Absurdity to the absolute extreme!
Only a Loving, Omnipotent, Omniscient, faithful Creator, who progressively REVEALED Himself, precept upon precept, line upon line, a little here, a little there, COULD HAVE *REVEALED* such revelation, re specific nations, all of which came crashing down, exactly as HE foretold through HIS prophets, AND the ULTIMATE revelation of Himself, Lovingingly Manifested IN the Second Person of the Eternal Godhead, Immnuel, God WITH US, The Lord Jesus Christ!
For, it is in the New Testament that we are given the fullest,clearest, richest, and the most comprehensive REVELATION of the Name of Almighty God. No words of man can adequately explain or express the Glory of God and His Name. THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, is that NAME!
It is wise to remember the words of King Solomon:
“He that ANSWERETH a MATTER before he *heareth* IT, it IS HAME and FOLLY unto him.” (Proverbs 18: 13) emphasis added.
A word to the wise is enough; but fools will remain in their ignorance!
CITIES : THEIR ORIGINS AND THEIR END part 4
Revelation chapter 18 teachers that after the destruction of ecclesiastical Babylon, the โgreat harlotโ of Revelation 17:1, by political Babylon, that political Babylon itself and the city of Babylon itself will be destroyed, so that Satan and his false Christ, the beast may alone be the object of worship.
This has been the devilโs supreme ambition through the ages as taught in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4; Revelation 13:4,15. However, the power of political Babylon will be short lived, as it will soon thereafter be destroyed by Christ when He returns in glory (Revelation 16:14,16;19:17).
We read in Revelation 18:2 that “Babylon the great is fallen, and have become the habitation of demons.” In verses 10, 16, 18-19, and 21 it is the judgment upon the city that is emphasized.
It must be emphasized too that whereas the destruction of the whore was effected by the Antichrist and the ten kings (17:16-17), and was thus a judgment through secondary causes, the judgment of the city of Babylon is executed by God himself (v.8).
This judgment is not a providential judgment as in the previous case, but one that is directly executed “from heaven” (v. 1).
We must remember that the judgment upon the city of Babylon was announced by an angelic proclamation recorded in Revelation 14:8, which emphasized the double aspect of judgment both as a religious system and a political power, and also at the pouring out of the seventh vial in Revelation 16:19; which stressed the utter destruction of the city.
Revelation 18 commences with the proclamation of judgment by an angel who descended from heaven with great power, and whose brilliance lighted the entire earth.
This angel described the utter destruction and desolation of Babylon as a habitation of demons and evil birds, because of the fornication of the city with the inhabitants of earth.
The angel revealed that the commercial wealth of the city had lured merchants from near and far, and that her political power had attracted potentates in an intimate relation with the city characterized by great sin.
There is a warning or plea in verse 4 that relates to Jews or Godโs remnant who might have been lured to the city at this time. Just as Lot was urged to come out of Sodom, and just as Noah preached to his generation for 120 years, a final chance is given for would be believers in the city to extirpate themselves from the imminent and impending destruction.
This Biblical principle of God to always give adequate warning of impending judgment is enunciated very clearly in 1 Thessalonians 4:10. God always delivers his remnant before his judgment. This is a note for contemporary fence sitters to set themselves apart and make their calling and election sure as indicated in 2 Corinthians 6:17, and 2 Peter 1:10.
Verses 5-6 states that Godโs retribution on political Babylon for exhibiting the highest form of satanic defiance indicated by the statement that her sins had reached up to heaven is twofold.
Both her religious and political systems will be destroyed on the same day one after the other; the religious part being the first to be annihilated, as indicated in verse 8.
The suddenness, completeness, sovereignty and extremity of its destruction will produce great consternation in those who will view the result.
This is especially so when one considers how the city had glorified herself, in her self sufficiency and independence asserting that she was a queen rather than a widow, and as such, would never see sorrow, even as she herself meted out the same to others.
Certainly Revelation 18:7-8 speaks of Babylonโs complacency at time of impending judgment as taught in 1 Thessalonians 5: 2.
Revelation 18:11-17 indicates that commercial activity will come to an abrupt halt as both mercantile and maritime trade ceases, and the destruction is over within the hour (v17-19).
Governmental authorities will lament Babylonโs fate (v9-11) as the wickedness and luxury afforded by the city is terminated forever.
The chambers of commerce will bemoan her destruction (vv11-16) when they see that their source of gain from trading in gold and other jewelry, and other diverse commodities is gone.
The truckers and other transportation business interests will lament Babylonโs destruction, as they realize that their profits from transporting goods to and from the city has been terminated.
Revelation 18:22-23 indicates that there will be no more music, craft, bright lights, artistry, sorceries or any of the parameters that are mentioned in this chapter, or Genesis 4.
All of the things that characterize contemporary city life, and that lure people to its ills will be abolished. All of the evils of city life started in the era of Genesis 4-11, when Cain, and Nimrod developed city life in defiance of God will cease.
So complete will be the destruction of the city of Babylon, the world capital of all that is evil, that the chorus โno more at allโ will be spoken of everything about city life.
We are told in verse 20 that holy prophets and apostles will rejoice because God has avenged them by Babylonโs destruction. Heaven and its inhabitants will rejoice at its fall, because this judgment is the vindication of God and all those who suffered at the hands of this ecclesiastical and political system.
The blood of prophets and of the saints found within the city is evidence that this city had rejected God, his message and his messengers.
โThe chickens hatched by Cain, and Nimrod will have now come home to roost, and be roasted!โ to use modern parlance.
For some of us, the fun has already started. Yes it started in September 2008, and it will be getting worse!
Even so come L:ord Jesus is our cry and hearts’s desire.
You may now mock and scoff. I dont expect questions. I know that you are not interested. But I have declared the counself of God. So let the mocking and scoffing begin!
@Zoe
What you profess is not for me to scoff at and what you are accusing others of is exactly what you are doing. That is the venom that is coming from your heart and you can’t even see it. For you it is a war.
Footnote:
Hopi,
My old friend grew up on the hard, hard streets of E Kgn at a time where Ja was spinning down into our mini theatre of operations for the Cold War. About the time I was a student at HC then at UWI.
Didn’t even really learn to read properly till he was in Gun Court; then — post conversion and transformation by the indwelling Spirit — took JSC’s and O Levels [CXC’s I think] then off to CAST.
He may have had some small SS exposure — most kids in Ja do; but the real formative influence was the hard, hard school of the street. (And had he been in SS and properly discipled, he would not have gone through what he became.)
By the time he was 15 the police were terrified of him — and had you met him at that time, you would (for good reason) have been utterly terrified for your life, much less your valuables.
This one is a genuine gospel miracle of regeneration, I assure you.
(One of many in Ja, BTW. I have heard a song about one who was saved over in Miami, recently. You better believe those songs — there are too many real cases.)
So, Hopi, you need to do some very serious soul-searching on some very hard and hurtfully wrong and slanderously strawmannish things you have brazenly, naively and ill-informedly — how very superciliously QC, pinky on the fly from the cup, genteely dabbling in New Age, Afrocentrism and Occult . . . [pardon a few blunt words] — said above.
And, you and your circle need to come up to the level of serious Dialectic, for which the above is a good first point of departure.
For, the worldviews choice on serious comparative difficulties challenge is decisive.
And beyond that, onlookers; you can’t really argue out a matter with a demon. It knows the truth better than you, but is in the business of supressing the truth using a very dirty bag of tricks. Our job is to first expose the deceit, then the underlying spirit and give an opportunity to find freedom in Him who bought that liberation at an awful price. Because he loved us.
Which goes for hard and dangerous E Kingston gunmen, and for upper crust genteel QC old girls dog-paddling around in spiritual waters that are full of lurking sharks. It even goes for bookworms that did not really want to serve God, but ended up as God’s draftees; fulfilling an offering up at birth.
For all of us, without the Lion of Judah on our side, we are in deep, deep, deep trouble.
G’nite
D
PS: GP and Zoe interesting stuff, will be back on the morrow DV; right now I just got a working download of an HP 48 family emulator and need to begin working my way through the relevant manual, with an eye to RPN operation; just like my fondly remembered old HP 21 [and successors up to a 42S], ROK. (Later on; I intend to get the hard version of the 50.)
GP, (and onlookers):
Had some good times with that emulator last evening; looks like a good run. Though, of course there are a few puzzles to solve — at least there is a whole movement out there surrounding the Emu 48 family.
Now, I had a first look at the 4-parter above. My observations:
1 –> I note that someone out there has suggested that the Bible starts in a garden and ends in a City, the New Jerusalem (which, BTW, sounds to me [as a long-term Sci Fi fan . . . ] a lot like a large artificial satellite serving as a space node and capital for a planetary system, fitting in with Peter’s predicted fusing and transforming of the world order).
2 –> I take an eschatological cue from this, as well as from the themes in Augustine’s City of God against the pagans: the city in itself is not necessarily evil, but the city built on the wrong worldview-moral foundations is. (And BTW, Ms Hopi et al, St Augustine was a Berber, in effect of Carthaginian roots [and Carthaginian paganism with its casual routine resort to idolatrous human sacrifices etc — NB, closely related to and derived form the Phoenician-Canaanite culture complex — shocked Rome!], but at a time when that culture was part of the polyglot Roman Empire.)
3 –> I also note a key contrast: Babylon the original was built on the plains of Shinar, but Mystery Babylon sits on seven hills. (Historical note: Rome, notoriously was the city of the seven hills, but when Constantine refounded the strategically located Byzantium as Constantinople, it was deliberately built on seven hills.)
4 –> I also note that in C1, the Mystery Babylon system was in existence, especially under Nero the mad, the original counterfeit political-cultural messiah figure [i.e. antichrist] for the number 666*: a polyglot state-order based on religious/occult sanction [divinations . . . ] and with a living idol [oh how familiar “American Idol” sounds!], demoniacal god-king over it.
_________
* I am of course aware of the MSS with 616. Also of the abundant foolish speculative numerology that surrounds this. It is fairly plain though that 666 is a code for Nero, the promising but spoiled brattish young king born with a gold spoon in his mouth gone bad as he rebelled against the counsels of Seneca and Burris.
5 –> So, I take the Mystery Babylon system to be religion as harlot [pardon the bluntness], compromised, worldly wise, worldly-spirited and bought out by financial power and manipulated by the state she rides on, in a domstic arrangement of convenience: living in sin, lies and sexual immorality [which is probably both literal and a figure for apostasy and amorality . . . John was very fond of multiple meanings], in effect.
6 –> I also apply a multiple fulfillments view of prophecy: there is usually an immediate context, there is an underlying familiar dynamic pattern* that crops up again and again, and there may well be an ultimate Day of the Lord fulfillment. [For instance, this is how I look at Mt 24 in light of the events of AD 70 etc.]
_____________
* The devil is not very creative so he uses the same all-too-reliable techniques and lies over and over again, precipitating very familiar patterns of spiritual warfare in cultures across time and place . . .
7 –> Under this, I include also the prophetically instructive history of Israel, esp. how on splitting off the Northern part, the old Prince of Tyre himself [the former Lucifer, onlookers] then sent in a gaily painted, oh so sophisticated but so utterly demonised Princess — Jezebel — with her 400 false prophets, to pull Israel into the Canaanite religious system, as defied so powerfully by Elijah at Carmel. (Jezebel is the model for the harlotrous woman who rides the beast, personifying a false religious system manipulating state power to abuse the poor men who get in the way of the agenda.
8 –> The ultimate form of the politics of personal destruction, folks. Just ask Naboth’s ghost on what it is like to be slanderously accused and judicially murdered by the corrupt state. [But then, this sort of history is running in my blood and is literally written into my name. Names as prophecy is another whole line . . . ])
9 –> Thus, we see here a third major case of the power confrontation of YHWH with utterly demonised rulers, after the confusion of tongues at Babylon the original, then the prophet — via a burning bush — being sent in from the back-bush desert with the word: “Let my people go!”
10 –> Amidst all this, I take a strong encouragement from Amos’ prophetic retorts to those who would shut him up:
Amos 3:7 Certainly the sovereign Lord does nothing without first revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.
3:8 A lion has roared!10 Who is not afraid? The sovereign Lord has spoken! Who can refuse to prophesy? . . . .
5:12 Certainly33 I am aware of34 your many rebellious acts35 and your numerous sins.
You36 torment the innocent, you take bribes,and you deny justice to37 the needy at the city gate.38
5:13 For this reason whoever is smart39 [i.e. the prophet is most definitely not “prudent” — and often pays a terrible price for speaking the unwelcome truth to corrupt, demonised elites . . . but woe to those who touch the Lord’s anointed and do his prophets harm!] keeps quiet40 in such a time, for it is an evil41 time.
5:14 Seek good and not evil so you can live!
Then the Lord, the God who commands armies, just might be with you, as you claim he is.
5:15 Hate what is wrong, love what is right!
Promote42 justice at the city gate!43
Maybe the Lord, the God who commands armies, will have mercy on44 those who are left from45 Joseph.46
[ . . . ]
11 –> This raises the issue of the implicit term of mercy in prophetic judgement, as Jonah so vividly illustrates. As Jeremiah put it, though the prophetic drama of the potter’s house:
Jer 18:1 The Lord said to Jeremiah:1 18:2 โGo down at once2 to the potterโs house. I will speak to you further there.โ3 18:3 So I went down to the potterโs house and found him working4 at his wheel.5 18:4 Now and then6 there would be something wrong7 with the pot he was molding from the clay8 with his hands. So he would rework9 the clay into another kind of pot as he saw fit.10
18:5 Then the Lord said to me,11 18:6 โI, the Lord, say:12 โO nation of Israel, can I not deal with you as this potter deals with the clay?13 In my hands, you, O nation of Israel, are just like the clay in this potterโs hand.โ 18:7 There are times, Jeremiah,14 when I threaten to uproot, tear down, and destroy a nation or kingdom.15 18:8 But if that nation I threatened stops doing wrong,16 I will CANCEL the destruction17 I intended to do to it. 18:9 And there are times when I promise to build up and establish18 a nation or kingdom. 18:10 But if that nation does what displeases me and does not obey me, then I will cancel the good I promised to do to it. 18:11 So now, tell the people of Judah and the citizens of Jerusalem19 this: The Lord says, โI am preparing to bring disaster on you! I am making plans to punish you.20 So, every one of you, stop the evil things you have been doing.21 Correct the way you have been living and do what is right.โ22 . . .
12 –> However, the passage had to continue, with sadness even as [i] consequences of sinful rebellion against God and [ii] defiance of prophetic correction led to [iii] destruction*: Jer 18:12 But they just keep saying, โWe do not care what you say!23 We will do whatever we want to do! We will continue to behave wickedly and stubbornly!โ
____________
* this highlights the three phases and degrees of God’s judgement of a nation, in a context that is meant to bring us to an awareness of the chaos caused by sin and to bring us to grope for God, even blindly, per Ac 17. (Cf the turn of the new millennium series of articles in Caribbean Challenge, starting here.)
13 –> Thus, I take a broader view of the relevance of prophetic scripture and visions.
14 –> Even if this is not THE Day of the Lord — and it may well be — it certainly is a Day of the Lord and one in which our region is being weighted in God’s balances of justice. Let us pray that we will not be found sadly wanting like [the second-level] King Belshazzar in Dan 5.
15 –> Turning to the current form of Mystery Babylon in our civilisation and region, it is clear that we face an oil-and-water mix of
(i) outright radical secularism and atheism,
(ii) apostate Christianity [tracing to the impact of the sort of modernist injection of atheism into the foundations of theology discussed here],
(iii) outright idolatrous politically messianistic statism [usually in some form of socialist or fascist* scheme that seeks to ride the tides of a resentful, oppressed mass to power . . . ], and
(iv) occultic neo-paganism with an Afrocentrist twist [including the older movements, not just the ones fashionable for upper middle class women] .
___________
* Fascism — contrary to popular views pushed by Gramsci and Stalin et al, is an identity-group ideology of the LEFT, as NAZI shows: National Socialism. As “Fascism” shows, it is an ideology of the mass bound up into a bundle to gain strength through the unifying immoral and bloodthirsty madness of the mob. It looks to a political messiah who is given unprecedented power in the face of the propagandistically exaggerated and manipulated crisis of the day, that messiah in turn making back-room deals with key power centres in the state, economy, religion etc. (And BTW, Fidel Castro is much more the Fascist than the Communist. His stellar image in our region –never mind the 18,000+ dead under unjust circumstances in Cuba at the hands of the revolutionists, starting with Fidel and Che Guevara — is telling on the idolatrous condition of our own hearts.)
16 –> Also, hovering on the horizon is a second form of fascist political-religious messianism: radical Islam. (Observe the case of Sheik El Feisal — aka Trevor William Forrest of Hannover and Rusea’s [recruited into Islam by one of his teachers] — of Jamaica in Kenya just the other day.)
17 –> But at global level, the manipulation of global concerns [note on the climate gate affair!] and of the internationalist movement over the past century and more are definitely setting up conditions for a global fascistic political messianism that would fit Rev to a tee.
______________
And so, we clearly face a serious challenge as a region!
D
PS: ROK, kindly look in a mirror, after you glance at some of what you have been saying above and in previous threads.
John’s excerpts above may help clarify. Just think about sweeping statements like:
โLet us put it this way, even if it was the absolute truth, the fact that you donโt have any proof, makes anyone who claims that the bible is absolute truth is probably the biggest liar in the world.โ
–> Slanderous strawman:
–> first, absolute truth, mean the truth, the whole relevant truth and nothing but the truth. (That would be the mark of the Word of God.)
–> Absoluteness of truth is thus a matter of being pure, complete relevant truth, not whether or not we finite and fallibe humans can warrant particular claims to it — knowledge is a question of confident access to truth based on warrant, not of the existence of that truth itself.
–> And, if one has warrant through say the fulfilled prophecy of Is 53 as recorded in 1 Cor 15:1 – 11 (with 500+ eyewitnesses), followed by the experience of meeting the living God as a forgiven and transformed sinner, through the face of the risen Christ; one may properly confident, well-warranted moral certainty of trusting the scriptures underwritten by him who is Lord of Life and Death, as the pure undiluted relevant truth.
–> All of this you know, or should know, as it has been worked out in your presence in this thread
โAll this intellectual dishonesty in the face of solid evidence that the bible is a plagiarism of the Egyptian religion.โ
–> A lie, passive form: you are responsible to see that there is not any good warrant for such a claim, as has been particularly demonstrated from here on above in the case of the legend of Osiris that you held up as the capital example.
–> Similarly, attempts to trace the cross, the word Amen and the name of Jesus to such pagan sources have come to grief. just, you and your ilk have stubbornly refused correction.
โI tell you, the lack of evidence to support anything in the bible is blaring.โ
–> Another bold, brazen lie in the face of responsibility to the easily accessible objective truth, and one that was examined step by step and corrected for both NT and OT. (Cf just one case, from Dec 24, here above.)
โThe only credit you could have from the bible is the fact that it was carefully crafted to enslave the whole world
–> Slanderous false accusation
–> the faith of the Bible, onlookers, has a long history of being very directly involved in liberation, as I have discussed in extenso and linked. Cf here.
and just as you stole the religious principles of the Egyptians and their ancestors,
–> Slanderous false accusation, easily countered by the very first principle: pagan polytheism is not the ancestor to Creation-based covenantal Monotheism, as a worldview.
so have this christianity been stealing tithes from poor people as if they are entitled to poor peopleโs labour and money; calling it divine decree.โ
–> Let us see here: the tithe is here viewed as robbery of the poor, rather than a returning with gratitude to the One who has so richly blessed us with all things. And that in the OT covenant, served as a way to fund the Levites who provided many of the services of government, including public health and public education.
–> A proportionate return of gratitude to God that — adjusted for the terms of the New Covenant [i.e. there is no legalistic yardstick, just a principle of liberality] — has funded a lot of the initiatives of outreach to and support for the poor over many centuries across the world
–> Easily accessible facts that could easily have been ascertained had you been willing to be fair and truthful, instead of scoring nasty atmosphere-poisoning rhetorical points.
–> Now, some have indeed abused the tithes etc — they will account to a stern Lord for that — but this is not what is at stake here, what we have is a round out declaration that the tithe is robbery.
โIt does not take away from the fact that the bible is a book of plagiarism.โ
–> Insistently ignoring corrections and repeating an exposed lie — as has been shown repeatedly above on the Egyptian paganism is the root of the OT and NT faith assertions, onlookers — does not suddenly transmute it into truth
–> But, the secret of the Big Lie agit-prop technique being here used by the Afrocentrist advocates of Egyptian paganism is that if a lie has in it some things that sound plausible to the ill-informed, and is repeated endlessly without correction, it will seem to be the truth to many; who will then often reject the real truth when it comes to them
–. that is why I have taken time to partiently correct these errors, slanders and rflsehoods.
–> observe, onlookers: the advocates and mocking skeptics against the gospel (can you call the sort of intemperate rhetoric above anything but that?) have been unable to rebut on the merits the corrections; they have just doubled down on more false accusations.
As you see from my remarks on points, you have been repeatedly corrected on such slanderous strawman dismissals by have simply doubled down on false accusations and assertions.
So, ROK, you plainly have need to do some serious soul-searching in the mirror.
G’day.
PPS: And, given that you seem to be a player in the regional NGO movement, you need to answer whether we should dismiss all charities, action groups and the like, because there have been cases of manipulative and dishonest fund raising. (In short, onlookers, ROK’s selective hyperskepticism against giving to the biggest single set of NGO’s and CBO’s and CSO’s in our region — a cluster of groups with an enviable track record of good done in the community — has turned on him in self-referential inconsistency.)
PPPS: Onlookers, please don’t forget my New year’s eve corrective on the historical and archaeological warrant for the foundations of the Biblical worldview and faiths, from here on.
@GP…………According to the bk of Luke when did Jesus ‘ascend to heaven?’
@Dict….Since AEgypt was so evil and perverted, why did ‘God’ allow Jesus to flee there to seek refuge in such a ‘godless, paganistic country?’
Regarding your Greek origin of Iesous/Iesus…these are all variations/derivations of the AEgyptians ..Iu..of Iuemhetp which means the ever coming Son, or Iusu the coming Son Jesus. Now do you see the origin?
Here is another copycat..Mat 6:6
“But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to the Father who is in secret and they father who seeth in secret shall reward thee openly’
Here’s the equivalent or original AEgyptian source:
‘Do not raise your voice in the house of god, He abhors shouting. Pray by yourself with a loving heart, Whose is in secret. He will grant your needs, He will hear your words, He will accept your offerings.’
Alright Hopi, I see where you going …… thank God somebody can think for themselves.
Prove them wrong I love it! Them and their white man!!!!
Hopi:
You are again being irresponsible, and that in a context where you already have made some really offensive and demonstrably slanderous remarks that ate utterly without warrant, for which you apparently do not have the common courtesy to apologise for.
You need to do some really serious re-thinking about how you have been behaving, madam.
Now, more for the mnaive who may be misled, I will comment on the latest assertion you have made.
1: The meaning of Yeshua, as already documented, is not in doubt. As a glance at the Septuagint will reveal, or for that matter the way Joshua [the OT hero] is rendered in the NT, will show that Iesous is simply the Gk transliteration.
But then, on track record of the thread above; mere well-established linguistic, historical and worldview level facts do not seem to have any impact on your claims and your determination that you will project Egyptian polytheistic pagan precedents into everything you can find, in order to forward an ideological agenda.
But, that pattern should tell the astute reader what is really going on.
2: As to trying to make a pagan source into the original for Jesus’ call to humility instead of public show of devotion — answering to a very specific problem of the Pharisees — the very attempt to force fit across so wide a gap in basic worldviews is itself telling.
For, plainly, it is not registering that to the fiercely Monotheistic Jew of C1, the very notion of looking to demon-backed dumb idols and their teachings for inspiration was anathema. (Remember, onlookers: Rome had been forced to back off on normal civic requirements of pagan devotion as expressions of loyalty to Rome, because the Jews were more than willing to die for their monotheistic commitment. As Acts implies, and as the history of the Neronian persecution shows, Christianity only began to suffer persecution from Romans when it was clear that it was not simply a sect of Judaism.)
To see just how manipulatively out of context Hopi’s cite is, onlookers, let us look at it in context in the Sermon on the Mount:
6:5 โWhenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites [guess who . . . !], because they love to pray while standing in synagogues7 and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. 6:6 But whenever you pray, go into your room,8 close the door, and pray to your Father [not: “your favourite god”!] in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you.9 6:7 When10 you pray, do not babble repetitiously like the Gentiles, because they think that by their many words they will be heard. 6:8 Do11 not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 6:9 So pray this way:12
Our Father13 in heaven, may your [G4675 ฯฮฟฯ อ sou Thayer Definition: 1) thy, thee Part of Speech: pronoun] name be honored,14 6:10 may your kingdom come,15
may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.6:11 Give us today our daily bread,16
6:12 and forgive us our debts, as we ourselves17 have forgiven our debtors.
6:13 And do not lead us into temptation,18 but deliver us from the evil one.19 . . .
The utter contrast between Jesus’ words in context and what Hopi claims as the Egyptian, polytheistic, precedent could not be plainer.
Yet again.
In short, her sources are simply looking for the remotest parallels of phrasing or generic themes they can find. Then, without showing reasonable causal chain on the way that a pagan, polytheistic, magical system could be the basis for the views and teachings of a Monotheistic Jew responding to the problem of hypocrites making prayers and alms for show, simply baldly and nakedly assert what they have the burden of proof to warrant.
A burden they do not, and cannot meet.
Plainly, neither these sources — and note how Hopi has been careful never to name the authorities and let us inspect their credentials [by contrast, e.g. Thayer’s lexicon is a standard work, and it is in line with the others of like ilk] — nor the one who uses them have done their academic homework properly.
G’day
D
@Dic…..You will not accept that before there was one Jew or Christian, there were the Ancients from whom they’ve copied everything. All your ‘great’ references can NEVER change that, thus my presenting any sources to you won’t make any difference.
+
So I’m still waiting for your proof deary!
Why was baby Jesus taken to dangerous, paganistic, ‘idolotrous’ dark Egypt for safety?
Child Of God ( Its Hard To Believe )
(*)
(*)=Millie Jackson
I know a man who curses his brother
I know a man who lives for no other
Always chasing after money
Thinks a poor man is funny
It’s hard, it’s hard to believe he’s a child of God
I know a woman who steals from her mother
That same woman she gets drunk from one day to another
Kicks her kids out in the street
There’s another man under their father’s sheets
I find it hard, I find it hard, I find it hard
It’s hard to believe she’s a child of God
I know some people who go to church on sunday
These same people, they wear a sheet on monday
Talk about justice being free
They’re watching lynchings so easily
I find it hard, I find it hard, I find it hard
It’s hard to believe these are children of God
I find it hard to believe right now
These people call themselves children of God
Israel in Prophecy
It is widely believed among Evangelical Christians that the steady return of Jews to Palestine during this century, and the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, represent an amazing fulfillment of specific Old Testament promises made to the Israelites.
Furthermore, this alleged fulfillment is viewed as the prelude to such final events as the Rapture, the Tribulation, the rebuilding of the Jerusalem Temple, the conversion of the Jews, the Return of Christ, and the establishment of the millennial Jewish kingdom ruled over by Christ from David’s throne in Jerusalem.
Leon J. Wood aptly expresses this popular view in The Bible and Future Events: “The clearest sign of Christ’s return is the modern state of Israel . . . One should realize that God’s timetable could call for Israel to be in the land for many years before bringing the fruition of the age. But with the nation actually there, and with many factors concerning it fitting into conditions set forth in Scripture for the last days, . . . one may safely believe that Christ’s coming is not far in the future.”
The political restoration of Israel in 1948 is not only one of the most important events of our age, but also one of the most important prophetic sign to herald the era of Christ’s return
To say the least, the return of many Jews to Palestine and the establishment of the State of Israel are most remarkable happenings. So it is not surprising that many Christians and Jews see in these events which have transpired in the Middle East the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies. But is this a legitimate interpretation of prophecies?
It is quite possible to believe personally that the Jewish people have a moral or historical right to the land of Palestine and that God has providentially led in the establishment of the State of Israel, but can such a belief be legitimately grounded on Biblical prophecies? To answer this question, it is necessary briefly to examine at least some of the prophecies generally adduced in support of this belief.
There is, first, God’s promise to Abraham that his descendants would inherit “all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession” (Gen 17:8; cf. 12:7; 13:15; 15:18). In addition there are promises in some of the prophets that speak of a “second” return of the Israelites (Is 11:11) to their homeland “from all the nations” (Jer 29:14). Dispensationalists believe that this predicted return is supposed to be in unbelief (Ezek 36:24-26; cf. Jer 30). They find confirmation for such a belief in what is taking place today.
The restoration promises are viewed as unconditional literal promises whose fulfillment began for the first time in 1948 with the dramatic recovery of part of Palestine by the Jews. Previous possessions and dispossessions of the land of Canaan by the Israelites supposedly do not fulfill God’s territorial promises for at least two reason. First, God promised not temporary but “everlasting possession” of the land (Gen 17:8). Second, the Israelites have never possessed in the past all the promised land “from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates”
Passages such as Ezekiel 22:17 and 36:24-28 indicate that “the Jews are to be gathered back to the land in a state of unbelief. The national conversion to Jesus Christ their Messiah will not take place until after they are restored to the land.” In other words, the territorial restoration of the Jews is supposed to precede their conversion to the Messiah.
Dispensationalists interpret the statement found in Ezekiel 22:19-20, “I will gather you in my anger and in my wrath,” to refer to the present emigration of the Jews to Palestine in unbelief.
The second “proof text” generally cited to support the return-in-unbelief view, is Ezekiel 36:24-25: “For I will take you from the nations, and gather you from all the countries, and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleans you.” The fact that the promise of territorial restoration precedes the spiritual cleansing of the people in this passage is taken to mean that first the Jews will return to Palestine in unbelief and afterwards they will be cleansed and redeemed.
Another prophecy viewed by many as a proof text for the present reconstitution of Israel is found in Isaiah 11:11: “in that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant which is left of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Ethiopia, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea.”
Isaiah’s reference to “a second” gathering of the remnant of Israel from many nations is viewed as being fulfilled today for the first time with the return of some Jews to the reconstituted State of Israel. The latter is seen as the prelude to the final regathering of Israel, which, to use J. F. Walvoord’s words, “will have its culmination when Israel’s Messiah returns to the earth in power and glory to reign.”
This view rests on the assumption that the “second” gathering predicted by Isaiah was not fulfilled when a faithful remnant of Israel returned from Babylon to Jerusalem in 536 B.C. under Zerubbabel and again in 457 B.C. under Ezra. Two main reasons are generally given. First, the return from the Babylonian exile was only from one nation, Babylon, and not “from all the nations” (Jer 29:14; cf. Is 11:11). Second, the return from the Babylonian exile was but a pale reflection of the grandiose return envisioned by Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and Isaiah.
The return of the Jews to the land is now in progress. Israel has become the strongest military power of the Middle East. The soil is being reclaimed after centuries of neglect, through the diversion of water from the Jordan to irrigate the Negev desert. These developments have led many Christians to believe that that restoration prophecies are indeed being fulfilled today. A travel advertisement in Christianity Today (October 27, 1967) aptly expresses this popular belief: “Is Prophecy Being Fulfilled in the Bible Lands Today? Come and See.”
It can hardly be disputed that the restoration prophecies were not completely fulfilled in the post-exilic period and that it is appropriate to look for a fuller fulfillment at a later time. However, in looking for a greater fulfillment it is important to recognize that prophecies regarding the Land of Canaan and the restoration of Israel may be fulfilled in a threefold way: literally, figuratively, and antitypically.
@Hey D………This is what Plutarch said:
“Solon,Thales,Plato,Eudoxus & Pythagoras went to AEgypt and consorted with the priest. Eudoxus they say, received instruction from Chonuphis of Memphis, Salon from Sonchis of Sais and Pythagoras from Oeniphis of Heliopoplis.”
Thales, the father of Greek philosophy studied where……in Ancient Aegypt with the Sages of the Temples. Thales was also the founder of the Ionian School and who was his student…….the ‘great’ Socrates and who was Socrates student…Plato and who was Plato’s student…..Aristotle.
Do you see the Origin? Or do you need me to go on?
What is the role of Israel and the Nations with regard to the End Times?
In addressing this question it would help considerably to define the End Times as that period that begins with the Rapture of the Church and continues into eternity. If we then divide this period into sub- periods we would more easily and better be able to consider the roles of Israel, with regard to each of these sub periods. It is worthy of note too that there are many Old Testament prophecies which refer to Israel in the last days under a variety of names such as:
โข Zion
โข Jerusalem
โข House of Jacob
โข Mount Zion
โข Glorious Land
This fact should help the Bible student to be alert in finding such passages as he peruses the Scriptures.
In pursuing this exercise we can use my favorite working outlines concerning the second coming
1. The Rapture of the Church, (Ist. Phase) followed by the judgement Seat of Christ (bema) and the marriage of the lamb.
2.The Revelation of Antichrist.
3. The Rigors of The Great Tribulation.
4. The Resounding Victory of Christ at the Battle of Armageddon.
5. The Return of Christ in Glory (2nd. phase)
6.The Renegade Satan is bound.
7.The Rule of Christ in the Millennial Kingdom.
8. The Rebellion of Satan for the last time.
9. The Rejection of unbelievers at the last judgement.
10.The Retirement of the saints to the new heaven and the new earth.
From this first outline we can relate each of these groups to the events above, which give a broad view of the occurrences of this period.
It is clear that 1) neither the Nations or Israel will be involved in The Rapture of the Church .
2 &3 Both of these groups will be present on earth to witness the rise of Antichrist and will both undergo the tribulation period. This is clear from a study of the Olivet Discourse, Revelations and Danielโs prophecies of the end times.
4. 5 The remaining Jews left and perhaps the Gentiles will be rescued from wholesale slaughter
by the Resounding Victory of Christ at the Battle of Armageddon, and will witness
The Return of Christ in Glory (2nd. phase) in the clouds as described in the Olivet discourse and other passages ( remember that these events coincide.)
6 Both groups will probably witness the binding of Satan
As REGARDS ISRAEL in the period of the millennium, Thiessen writes โMost of the teaching concerning this period affects Israel, especially insofar as the Old Testament is concerned. We note that Israel is to be regathered (Isa. 11:10-13; Jer. 16:14f.; 23:5-8; 30:6-11; Ezek. 37:1-4; Matt. 24:2033). The establishment of the state of Israel in Palestine is surely a forerunner of the ultimate regathering. A good many Israelites will be brought out of the land of their sojourn, but because of a rebellious spirit will not be permitted to enter the land (Ezek. 20:33-38). Then Israel will repent and be converted (Isa. 66:8; Jer. 31:31-37; Ezek. 36:24-29; 37:1-14; Zech. 12:10-13:2; Rom. 11:25f.). Finally, they will receive him who came to be their Savior long ago, and their acceptance of the Lord will be life from the dead (Rom. 11: 15). Next we find that Ephraim and Judah are to be reunited (Isa. 11: 13; Jer. 3:18; Ezek. 37:16-22; Hos. 1: 11). Further, we note that the temple and its worship are to be restored (Ezek. 37:26-28; 40-46; Zech. 14:16f.). When we remember that sacrifices can be memorial as well as typical, we see no reason why this prophecy too should not be interpreted literally. Again, Palestine is to be divided among the tribes (Ezek. 47, 48) and to be Israel’s possession forever (Ezek. 34:28; 37:25). Further, Israel is to have her judges restored to her (Isa. 1:26; Matt. 19:28). And finally, Israel is to evangelize the Gentiles (Isa. 66:19; Zech. 8:13, 20-23). No doubt, this refers to the nations that will be born during the millennium, for at the outset the millennium will consist of converted people only.
As REGARDS THE NATIONS in this period the same author posits โ Following the judgment of the nations, the sheep will enter the kingdom (Matt. 25:34-40). They will form the nucleus of the kingdom, together with restored and converted Israel. But it is evident that multitudes will be born during that age (Isa. 65:20; Jer. 30:20; Mic. 4:1-5; Zech. 8:4-6), and these will need to be evangelized. Israel will be the evangelists, perhaps, to these Gentiles (Isa. 66:19; Zech. 8:13, 20-23; Acts 15:16f.). Finally, we note that the Gentiles will go up to worship at Jerusalem, especially at the annual feast of tabernacles (Isa. 2:2-4; Zech. 14:16-19). Then we will have a united people of God and a united worship (Isa. 19:23-25).โ
Though Gentile nations will be recipients of great blessing during the millennial age, the center of Godโs prophetic program is Israel. This is the clear indication of a literal interpretation of the Bible. The Scriptures teach that the Jews will as a nation turn to Christ, and also that they will occupy the central place in the millennial age when Christ personally brings to this earth universal peace, prosperity and justice.
It is important to realize that both Israel as a people, and the land of Palestine did not fade into insignificance after the ascension or the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. God is not finished with either the Jewish nation or the land which he gave them to possess fully. One of the greatest miracles of all the ages has been the preservation of the Jews in fulfillment of Godโs promise of Leviticus 26:44-45. Today despite centuries of catastrophic judgements, including the killing of one million one hundred thousand Jews by Titus in AD 70 and six million by Hitler in the last century, the Jews still exist as a people even after 18oo years without a home and such bitter persecution. Other peoples living under such extreme circumstances would long ago have lost their identity. Their very existence in the state of Israel today, though in unbelief in fulfillment of the prophesy of Ezekiel 37 and Isaiah 66:22, is of tremendous significance gives credence to the concept that the other promises concerning their involvement in end time events is a reality. Ezekiel 36:24-28 teach very clearly that after the return of a remnant that the nation of Israel will be converted to Christ, and begin to live for Godโs glory. The prophesy of the dry bones in Ezekiel 37:1-14 with respect to the bones being brought together and clothed with flesh before they receive the breath of life has been fulfilled, as the necessary prerequisite for the complete fulfillment of this prophecy , which seems to loom closely ahead.
We must realize that Israel as a land holds a unique place in Godโs program since it is here tha the final overthrow of the armies of Russia will take place as described in Ezekiel 38 & 39. The land of Israel is vitally important also in Godโs end time program, because it will play an important part in the career of the Antichrist, the coming political world ruler ( Daniel 9:27). Palestine is also the scene for the final defeat of Antichrist at the Battle of Armageddon on the plains of Megiddo as predicted by Zechariah 14 and Revelation 19, and when Jesus comes in power and glory to destroy His enemies and to establish His Kingdom, it is upon the Mount of Olives in Israel that His feet shall stand as foretold in Zechariah 14:4. He will then bring peace , justice and prosperity to this weary world ruling from Jerusalem in accordance to the promise of Isaiah 2:3-4.
Both unrepentant Jews if they are any and ungodly gentiles who did not really truly acknowledge the Lordship of Jesus in the millennium will join in, and be crushed in the rebellion led by Satan after he is released for a season following the perfect reign of the millennium.
It is of course important to note on the strength of John 8:39, Galatians 3:6-9,and Romans 9:7 that being a physical descendant of Abraham only does not qualify a Jew of any age for the blessings of Godโs kingdom. The qualification for Godโs blessings to Jew and Gentile alike of all ages is the exercise of faith in God as exemplified by Abraham in Genesis 15 and discussed in scripture passages such as Romans 4 especially verses 3-5.
They will no doubt witness too his final banishment to the lake of fire prepared for him and his angels.
9.10 Unsaved Jews and Gentiles from all ages will be part of those unbelievers that are rejected at the last judgement. These will certainly not retire with the saints, or the Godhead to the new heaven and the new earth.
Egyptian Religion
The gods of the Egyptians
As was commonly the case in ANCIENT PAGANISM, the *gods* of EGYPT were in large measure the personifications of the powers of NATURE, the EXACT OPPOSITE to the One and ONLY *GOD* of the Israelites, the Almighty Creator, beside WHOM there *IS* no other gods!
Where IS the paralell or COPYING?
In Egypt, insofar as various *animals* *plants* etc were concerned, were respected AS symbols of natural powers and of mysterious forces, these in turn were considered as MANIFESTATIONS of these Egyptian *deities* even as vehicles of their presence, a role that came to be shared by statues and other *IMAGES* and by sacred animals, like the APIS BULL of Ptah at Memphis.
WHERE is there the slightest HINT that any of this GROSS, *IDOLATERY* worship of FALSE, demonic *gods* were copied by the Isrealites?
Hopi, to try and cite some similarity in the structure of some Biblical prayers, to that of Egyptian *POLYTHEISM* which IS the antithesis TO Judaism, IS downright IGNORANCE, blatant NONSENSE!
The Israelites WERE commanded to Worship the Almighty God of *CREATION* the One True and KIVING GOD, NOT images made in the likeness of BEAST, BIRDS, BULLS, etc, etc, RANK idolatry.
Egyptinans worshipped the CREATURE, whereas, the Jews worshipped the CREATOR!
Where HOPI, is there any copying of Egyptian polytheistic, rabid IDOLATRY, to be found in the Bible, WHEN the very commands given to Judaism in the Word of God, FORBIDS such brazen worship of the creatures, RAMPANTLY depicted in Egyptian STONE!
Because there is to be found similar pharses to Egyptian ones in the Bible, does NOT in anyway validate your entirely FALSE premise, that the Israelites copied the Egyptian religion, as ONE is nothing BUT disguisting, CRASS worship of DEMONIC deceptions of FALSE deities, and the other, Judaism, the RADICAL opposite, worship of ONE GOD, the only Creator there IS!
You are a liar, desparately trying to justify the *father* of ALL Lies, the instigator and DECEIVER, who took Egypt down the path of RUINATION, through his LIES, SATAN!
David: in the mod pile (but without notification). Sorry.
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