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Submitted by Yardbroom

moralityIn recent comments Patrick Todd member of The Barbados Parliament made reference to the declaration of assets issue.  I am not concerned with the words spoken by Patrick Todd in this submission, neither do I seek to defend him as he is well capable of taking care of himself.  I will also leave the person to whom the remarks were addressed alone, as they are not the focus here.  As reported in the Nation News published 24 December 2008, making a judgment on Patrick Todd’s comments Peter Wickham wrote:

… and our population has never demonstrated a belief that personal morality have anything to do with professional competence or personal integrity…

The above seems a straight forward type of statement if it is looked at in a superficial way but if looked at in context, quite a few questions are posed as Peter Wickham has brought to the table as evidence the weight of Barbados public opinion.  I am not sure how he knows that because as far as I am aware the question has never been asked…but I will let that pass for the moment.

It is quite obvious that someone can be immoral and be very competent at what they do.  With regard to integrity, the footing becomes a little unsure – in a political context – as integrity could mean: adherence to moral principles; honesty.  I am not sure the average Barbadian would be happy with those in office if it could be proved beyond doubt that they were habitually dishonest.

I will leave Peter Wickham’s reasoning to ferment and move on to a hypothetical case.

Suppose we had a Prime Minister who was married and lived happily at home with his wife; he also openly had a 19 year old girl with two children in another household and a third lady safely ensconced as a mistress with another child in a separate abode.

His arrangement would not be illegal, the police could not come and arrest him.  No doubt his level of professional and political competence could be very high indeed, but a Prime Minister who openly demonstrated such a cavalier attitude in the face of the Barbados public could not be sure he would continue to have a high level of popular support.

If you use the argument that the Barbados population have never demonstrated a belief on “personal morality”; could it be that the “degree of immorality” has not been high enough to question their loyalty.  To use a minute level of immorality and to advance the argument it is “all embracing” seems very tenuous at the least..  My argument with the opinion that Peter Wickham has expressed is that the Barbados population might take a position on the “individual politician” and as a result of that view think they are not “suitable” for high office, despite their undoubted ability and competence.

This submission is not about Patrick Todd or another specific individual it is not even about Peter Wickham, it is about words used as the core of a belief which is purported to be in line with the Barbados population.  I am inclined to believe that the view expressed by Peter Wickham has not been tested at a high enough level of personal morality and integrity, therefore I am not as sure as he seems to be…perhaps I am wrong.


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91 responses to “Are Peter Wickham's Views In Agreement With Barbados Public Opinion?”


  1. People in a glass houses shouldn’t keep birds…

    AAAAAAAAAAAAghhhhhhhhhhh


  2. I really cannot understand Patrick Todd. A person’s sexuality has nothing to do with how they perform in their employment or other tasks. Is he crying out for help? Does he want to let us in a subtle way know something?


  3. The key point is that the Prime Minister would not shove it down our faces BECAUSE what he does in his bedroom(s) is really not our concern. We all knew Arthur and Beverley were over, we all herad rumours ( truth) about Errol Barrow, James Tudor, Tom Adams etec etec etec .

    Dont even talk about priests, reverrends , pastors , etc…

    This is nothing new and unless we are suddenly PURITANS I think that most poeple are on Wickhams side on this in pArticularly if the immorality is heterosexula in nature.

    For some reason man-man and to alesser extent woman-woman sexual activity sned us into a tizzy…dont understand why


  4. would you rather have a person who was competent to run the country and gay or would you rather it be run by an incompetent straight person?

    I really don’t care who they are sleeping with once the country is well run.


  5. @Yardbroom

    Leaving Mr Wickham’s perceptions aside, I think we need to really engage as a people in a serious debate about sexuality, civil partnerships, and LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bi-sexual and transgender) issues within the Bajan context.

    I am inclined to believe that we cannot begin to discuss matters of how we perceive ourselves as a nation, or any ideas of being a republic, even, unless we can nail to the ground what a “Bajan citizen” is in all of his, or her total identity.

    This forms part of the philosophical argument of citizenship.

    How does our being a “Christian nation” enter into the argument? Can one be a Christian, gay/lesbian/bi-sexual/transgendered Bajan?

    Thus far, these issues have only received attention because of the HIV/AIDS scenario, and have not appeared to be worthy of being discussed of and by themselves as citizens living in a mature democracy.

    I was hoping that this was the tenor of minister Todd’s comments, but, alas, he ended up taking things into an intellectual cul-de-sac.

    Is homophobia a Bajan reality?

    If so, where does it put the ‘what-you-do-in the-privacy-of-your-bedroom-is-your own-business’ argument?


  6. Mia Mottley threathen to sue Albert Brandford and the nation for simply mentioning the homosexaul debate in a telephone conversation between him and her. What is she so scared of, if the people’s view is in line with Peter Wickham’s! According to ME and PW, Mia could declare her hand in parliament and all will be well with the people. Yeh right! I prefer to believe that Bajan drag queen that won a competition in Trinidad, bajans aint ready for such declaration, so yes it matters, and as such Mia aint gine tek up Todd’s offer. Btw Todd’s comments is pure politics. Mia has silence many people via fear of libel threats, enbolden by her win against a British Magazine, so the fight will continue in parliament where libel and libel threats have no teeth.


  7. If so, where does it put the ‘what-you-do-in the-privacy-of-your-bedroom-is-your own-business’ argument?
    ==========================

    Homosexuality has left the bedroom, and the house all together, and is firmly squatting in the town square, government and soon to be your laws.


  8. At de end of the day and all de lotta talk by these FEW people, if any politician living an alternative lifestyle dares to take up Todd’s offer, it would most likely be their last mass in parliament as anybody representative. Todd’s comments is pure politics against a woman who has for a very long time quiet any dicussion about her through the fear of libel threats. I expect more of the same or similar, attacks on her within parliament, where the threat of libel has no “bite”. She should be put throught de hottest fire, and lets see if she comes out chain smoking. uh can’t say smoking hot, such uh ting is nigh impossible.

    1: Fruendel Stuart unapologetically called her a man in parliament.
    2: Todd dare those who have declared their assets to declare their sexaulity in parliamet.

    Only two parliamentarians have declared assets, Mia and Owen. Owen is a known and declared womanizer, Mia, well she said “I am who I am” ha ha ha ha now Todd challenges her to declare if she dares. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha lol!

    Um is one thing to buy your way into parliament every 5 years as Mia does, it is going to be quite a different thing to get people who you can’t purchase, to support your party with you as the leader.

    Barbadosforum.com


  9. For whatever reason Barbadians continue to runaway from discussing the wider issue of morality in public life, the point which we think Yardbroom is making. Homosexuality, adultery and other issues are all wrapped up in the issue to be fair.

    Bottomline if we centre the discussion around homosexuality we get no where fast. In the meantime we continue to drift in an ocean devoid of a moral compass.


  10. David “to be fair” sexual preference is not a moral issue. Come to think of it should I take a shine to female sheep, who would do the sheep greater harm, me or the butcher?


  11. @Adrian Hinds

    Wow, homosexuality got some serious legs ‘den!

    It really can’t be squatting in the town square if people have to fear libel suits, etc, to discuss the thing in a rational manner …


  12. @David

    True man, that’s the “bottom” line …


  13. Why is Mr. Wickham so concerned about the Homo issue? He seems to get overly heated whenever a fair comment or question is raised.


  14. Peter Wickham does is not a voice for, and not a representative of the views of Barbadians.


  15. Adrian Hinds,
    It seems to me that Patrick Todd was more or less directing his question towards mottley as she is the only one in Parliament of uncertain gender, some say more leaning towards being a male than female with that gruff mannish voice.

    The truth is that for me, it was Patrick Todd having a little fun at the expense of mottley.


  16. What a bunch of hypocritical creeps there are about.

    Windbag in Pain’s idea of ‘fun’ reflects his attitude in general


  17. It may not be an issue of just heterosexuality/homosexuality.

    I had nothing beter to do than read an English neswpaper on line yesterday and apparently in the good old mother country there are a good many other genders/preferences including, hetero/homo/gay/lesbian/transgender/bi/ and my all time favourite UNCERTAIN. I am not sure why they did not add “NONE OF THE ABOVE”

    I think that the “none of the above” people should lodge a protest with the English authorities, they should claim discrimination and sue somebody.


  18. However I do not want to know my MP’s gender/preference/orientation.

    If my MP shows me his/hers. I won’t vote for him/her next time.

    Some things are better kept in the pant(ie)s.


  19. If sexual preferences becomes an issue, 90% of caribbean politicians would have to resign and the integrity of many of those gone before would be at state. Plus, how would you know who’se telling the true or not? I think it is folly to ask such of a politician. Maybe the investigation should be levelled at who is tainted, if any, in the illegal drug trade.


  20. @The Scout

    You maybe missing the point. For example in the USA it is not uncommon for Senators and others in public office to tender resignations when caught out in affairs. In Barbados infidelity is not factored as a behaviour where a politician is held accountable.

    What moral standard do we want to institute in our Bajan society?


  21. Lying wid a few women ain’ de same as lying to a few women.

    AAAAAAAAAAAghhhhhhhhhhh


  22. Did I miss something? Where was Minister Todd’s declaration of his own sexuality? Not that I really care, but just for the record. I could not find it in Hansard. Let’s hope he has no skeletons of any persuasion in the closet.

    Also, enough of the innuendo about Mia Mottley. Many MPs/Ministers have threatened libel against what they felt were wrongful charges (ex-Minister Lynch, if I recall the famous incidents on Brass Tacks from 2007), and should be equally hounded. That’s what the law’s for. Those who can make the charge can get the courts to back them up too.


  23. David I dont think he misses th point at all I thin k that you are suggesting that our leaders SUDDENLY take a stance that is untenable with our culture.
    Ours is not a puritanical society and I dont see how it could be unless there is a revolution in thought.
    If you review our history you will note that 1. stable relationships within the slave communities were never promoted
    2. Oftentimes the slave masters maintained second families with his mistress etc.

    This continued in a modified way after slavery was abolished.

    Barbados unlike the USA has never had this idea of perefct monogamy in the sight of GOD. dont know which Barbados you are ‘remembering’

    So are we to now become a state where religion sets the laws and some one like you polices them…. heaven forbid!

    I think it is the height or insanity that a little wicking /bulling does get you in such a tizzy!


  24. Once again we have this gaping disconnect between what some would like us to be and what we are. I understand Yardbroom’s point about degrees of immorality, but how do we define these? Is a homosexual less electable than a lesbian? Is a woman beater less attractive than an adulterer? What about corruption in all this? And who or what supplies irrefutable proof?


  25. @me and Juris

    Isn’t this the point of the discourse we are having right now and should be having at the national level.

    The probing questions asked so far says yes!


  26. I think the debat should be more in terms of if we want to move the society forward.

    We are xenophobic , homophobic, progressophbic, rule of lawophobic, policeophobic, intellcetualophobic etcetc… I think we have to debate how can we go forward without the fear mongering and generlisations that are often repeated as gospel concerning others…

    The internet is a wonderful instrument with lots if information for anyone that wishes to be informed. I suggets more of us utilise it to its fullest.

    And remember Barbados is a small island nation in a big world …it does not and cannot stand alone no matter what you might think!


  27. Sexual preference is a non-issue. Defining what morality in Barbados is a complete waste of energy. You will get no where with it. But of course there is the usual inner circle of bloggers who continuously need to prove that they are capable of complex thought processes and banter on nothing topics.

    I have one burning desire and that is to help make this blog site far more popular than the other s*ite site. Lotta good this topic’s gonna do…


  28. I hope that homosexuals are equally electable as lesbians; they are similar. I presume there was a typo.

    We know that the discussion the region about morality and politics is a sterile discussion. We have a society that condones in different degrees, incest, wife beating, open infidelity and at the same time generally says that it upholds all the tenets of Christianity. Confused? Morally bereft? You should be.

    We also live in a region that is homophobic; that is a description not necessarily a criticism. People in the region generally do not see that homosexuals can be regarded as ‘normal’ and therefore cannot abide the notion of them participating as if they were equals. Logic and common sense won’t shift that bias.

    A politician suggesting that MPs declare their sexual preference and at the same time claiming to not be homophobic begs questions. On the one hand the preference matters to him but on the other hand he suggests it does not matter. If you’re not homophobic what do you care? Just for the fact? Are you trying to check out possible hetero partners without embarrassment? Don’t insult the people’s intelligence.


  29. Living in Barbados wrote “We live in a region that is homophobic”

    Some places in the region maybe.

    I am also stunned when people say that Barbados is homophobic.

    Barbados is one of the least homophobic places in the world, and I have travelled in dozens of plaes and lived in a few.

    One of the teachers at my rural primary school back in the 1950’s was quite openly lesbian. She is still alive and well, happily retired and very much involved in community work. She was a wonderful teacher. I never heard the children, the parents or the other teachers say a bad word about her.

    Sometime people ask if you would let a homosexual teach your child. One taught me, and come to think of it one (male) or more also taught my children and we have ALL turned out allright.

    She is only one of many homosexuals I’ve known who have lived good, decent, successful and unmolested lives in MY BARBADOS.

    But like most good effective people their sexuality was not constantly on the front burner. Being homosexual was like being Bajan, or female, or male, or black or Christian. Just an ordinary, ordinary thing.

    And I don’t think that my village was extraordinary in any way. It was (and is) a most ordinary rural Bajan village.


  30. I do think that Barbados is homophobic, but in a nice way. Not like Jamaica where you are in mortal danger, but in Barbados certain places are not open to you. Did that sound right? Of course, I don’t know what we are becoming with the Barbadian youth who are exposed to the rabid homophobia of dancehall.


  31. I dare any politician to declare they are a homosexual in Barbados.They will not get the vote of the majority.Some may have been voted into the parliament, but they never said they were.


  32. @ David
    I am not running away from the wider morality issue, mines have been a voice in the wilderness on this and many other subjects directly or indirectly related to politics and politician. At any rate to do so in reference to Todd’s parlimentary comments is to make or take serious, the politics that he is playing. Mia is a grown, uh almost said “GROWING”, woman I gine let her take her licks, I think she deserves them.
    ———————————

    @John Stevenson
    ….You can ignore the rise and current reach of the Gay agenda in American society, but i will not, it has legs and then some. For all the talk, the current economic mess in America has left me with one Politician who may have had a hand in causing this mess, but has never the less seen the dishonesty in the solutions for what it is worth and has demanded that homeowners get a share of their own money that is now going to financial and car making firms. I am not ashamed to say that inspite of Barney Frank’s opened Gayness, he has my support on this economic issue.
    ——————————————–
    @Range Rover:
    Inspite of setting the requirements of “those who have declared their assets” should now declare their sexual preference, Some people say that Ronald Jones may have to anwer Todd’s request, and if you believe anything said on the BLP platform, even the Prime Minister might have a case to answer.
    ——————————————–
    @WIV:

    IF David and the other “serious’ commentators cannot see the politics at play in Todd’s comments then I do. Sorry i cannot get serious on this topic when there is reference to Todd’s actions. I love it never the less. Nuh body ain afraid of Mia, and there seems to be a concerted effort to destablize her hold on power. Owen must be smiling.
    ———————————————

    @ all :

    When those of you and Peter Wickham define Barbados as homophobic, make sure to help me understand how this is possible, when the entire nation has a view of or is aware of the perception real or imagine that Mia Mottley may not be a hetero-normative individual, and she was still able to rise to the level of Deputy Prime minister, now leader of opposition, and at one point scored a significant percentage positive rating in a public opinion poll as a future Leader of Barbados. These set of things seems at odds with the homophobic label.


  33. At de end of the day and all de lotta talk by these FEW people, if any politician living an alternative lifestyle dares to take up Todd’s offer, it would most likely be their last mass in parliament as anybody representative.
    ———————————————–
    In all seriousness though. The facts of Mia success at the polls in her constituency, and favourable rating in a national poll as a potential leader, cannot be dismissed. My view about sexaul declarations may yet be right in her regard, since her rating though significant isn’t sufficient to give her the conviction and confidence to move forward and settle this question and subject of this national gossip once an for all, should the societal perception of her be true. One still have to wonder what has she gain by not addressing this “Nastiness” if there isn’t an once of truth to it?


  34. Regarding Peter Wickham’s comments, don’t forget that Wickham is an ardent exponent of ‘Cultural Relativism’ and naturally so, as an agnostic, which denies that there is no such thing as ‘absolute’ truth, therefore, he is against any such idea or concept of any kind of morality; which by necessity then leads us into a ‘value free’ entirely neutral society, and anything goes, as long as ‘it’ does not specifically interfere with anyone’s civil rights.

    This philosophical agenda, fostered essentially from the Gay/Lesbian movement up North, is extremely dangerous, to any society that generally up holds somekind of ‘moral’ compass based upon our historic Judeo/Christian principles.


  35. LOL heree comes that perceived ‘ agenda’ again. Wunna keep talking in circles. I actually agree that Barbados is not as homophobic as several other places I have visited and lived but what confuses me is that Barbadians are by far trhe most educated in terms of literacy compared to these other places yet we act so ignorant.

    I ma kinda tired of repeating the same arguments but it seems to me that if anyone is treated as less than normal by the majority that is bigotry especaially in the fact that most homosexuals are contributing FULLY to this society.

    The idea of a slippery slope of marality is always used to drive fear in the ignorant and promote bigotry …look at history people!


  36. Some guys I know years ago came across a fresh limb that was severed from a dead accident victim. They took it to a private dwelling, roasted it and ate it. They said it smelt like pork when it was cooking and tasted even better when it was done. How does this measure on the “moral compass”?


  37. Adrian Hinds, Oh please, you insult the intelligence of free thinking poeple with your anti Mia rehtoric, with YOUR suggestion that she comes forward and state her sexual preference. It is totally absurd. Besides it is no body’s business what Mia does in her private life, first and foremost, and secondly, sexual behaviour is very complex, so to just dismiss it as black and white shows me that you are biased or uninformed or scared. Scientific research has shown that these behaviors are rooted in a person’s gentics, and since this is the case there should be no problem whether a person is gay or transgendered. I also would like say keep the Bible out of this debate and stick to science. Happy New Year.

    PS I don’t believe there is an uncertain gender, no one is uncertain of their gender, you are either male or female, however, some may be blended somewhere in between the two genders. I am a University of Guyana granduate and a US university graduate so I know something.


  38. BAFBFP,
    Wait, you trying ta mek me puke this blessed nite? I kno’ bout people eating people but it in got nutten to do wid cannibalism. Ya wicked.
    Look, gays and straits like me, all mek up dis society so I don’t see de reason fa declaring yah hand. Fa wah? Does it in any way affect your ‘getting on wid the peoples’ business that you were elected to do? Stupseeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Gear Box
    I luvs you baddddddddddd. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.


  39. BAFBFP wrote “Some guys I know years ago came across a fresh limb that was severed from a dead accident victim…they took it to a private dwelling, roasted it and ate it. How does this measure on the “moral compass”?

    It is IMMORAL

    If these guys are your friends you need to get some new friends quick, quick.

    I hope that the family members find out and sue your friends for committing an indignity to the dead body of thier loved one.


  40. Bonny and Rest

    http://www.chooseveg.com/animal-cruelty.asp

    AAAAAAAAAAAAAghhhhhhhhhhhhh


  41. ha ha ha I chose to be vegetarian. AAAAghhhhhhhh lol lol!


  42. Adrian Hinds only you can twist and mince it up like that I love it. You have caused me to think REALLY THINK!


  43. So wait JC
    You mean I aint getting no meat wid my peas and rice when I come by you?
    Wuh loss! Definitely cant say AAAAAAAAAAAAAghhhhhhhhhhhhh
    fuh dat/LOL


  44. Zauditu Kush // December 29, 2008 at 8:16 pm

    Adrian Hinds, Oh please, you insult the intelligence of free thinking poeple with your anti Mia rehtoric, with YOUR suggestion that she comes forward and state her sexual preference. It is totally absurd. Besides it is no body’s business what Mia does in her private life, first and foremost, and secondly, sexual behaviour is very complex, so to just dismiss it as black and white shows me that you are biased or uninformed or scared. Scientific research has shown that these behaviors are rooted in a person’s gentics, and since this is the case there should be no problem whether a person is gay or transgendered. I also would like say keep the Bible out of this debate and stick to science. Happy New Year.

    PS I don’t believe there is an uncertain gender, no one is uncertain of their gender, you are either male or female, however, some may be blended somewhere in between the two genders. I am a University of Guyana granduate and a US university graduate so I know something.
    ===========================

    ha ha ha ha may i refer to you as “ZK”? you see, I does “spell-by-phonics” and fuh de life uh me I can’t pronunce your name. ha ha ha ha.
    …How do you propose to speak on behalf of free thinking people, by declaring that i have insulted their intelligence, and in the same submission you find it necessary to make me aware that you are double UNI matriculant and graduate? You aint sure that your graduant status is clearly enunuciable in your submissions? Since you in de “do” as spokesperson emeritus, for free thinkers, do their “intelligence” allow them to view the Uni of Guyana as a credible academy of anything? Uh just asking!

    I have often refered to the behavour of some people who will process their experiences via their beliefs, totally ignoring facts and ideas. You have taken a belief and in as little as fourteen words miraculously turn it into a fact.

    I gine leave you figure out what should be more important, your beliefs, that there is “no uncertain gender” and your facts that some people are “blended” between the two known genders. If at anytime i come to a “fork” in my understanding what you have meant, i will just refer to it as a “blend” somewhere between what i think you mean and what your really meant. ha ha ha ha lol


  45. Adrain De Magician: I too laughing. OK typical you distort and simplify, OK . I am just trying help Mia, poor lady, well she must be blended, I don’t know and I should not comment, but the fact is Adrian the lady is smart and as such can do great things for all of us. I laughing too, at yuh last paragraph, look I never hear about no uncertain gender until I see here today. Oh regarding my name, well ah know your concept of the world ends at the Barbados shoreline, so no need for me to explain my good name. LOL


  46. David
    For all the years this srap has been going on, how can you stop it now. It would mean a cleansing, purging of ALL politician from BOTH sides and that will not happen in my life time, not even yours.


  47. So what is homosexual anyway. Is it someone who has had one same sex experience. Is it someone who fooled around as a teenager but no longer messes with the same sex. Is it somone who is attracted to a particular memeber of the same sex. Is it an effeminate man. Is it a masculine woman. Is it a man who has anal intercourse. How about a man who does not have anal intercousre but does everything else. Are women who kiss on the lips lesbian. Are femenine women who have intimate relationships with other women lesbians.
    Are masculaine men who cock knock gay?

    So how do we police this…


  48. ……..one downpour of rain doesn’tmake it a flood eh ME ??

    RLMAO!!


  49. All politicians should declare their hands, homos indulge in buggery, buggery is an illegal act, LAW MAKERS should not be breaking the the law.
    An I am not voting for any known bullers or likkers.


  50. homosexuals, gays lesbians etc want their cake and they want to eat it too. They want to express themselves with gay abandon, yet they want everyone to remain silent on anything that is negative about their lifestyle.

    I want somebody to draw the line in the sand, I want somebody to give me all the positive reasons why we should all be homosexuals and homosexual lovers.

    Draw the line cause it have to be either good or bad, whilst you at it list for me the benefits that our young men and women reaping from this thing.

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