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Public Faces, Private Lives: Homosexuality in Barbados

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Submitted by Yardbroom

letstalk If recent events are indicative of the public mood, it seems we are afraid of having a “proper debate” about homosexuality in Barbados.  We must address this situation because if we do not, opinions will become hardened and polarized, making it impossible for “understanding” and a meeting of minds.

To have a proper debate, those whom we oppose should be allowed to have their say.  We have not got to agree to a position held to listen to the speaker; it is our right to disagree and disagree we should, if that is our strongly held stance.  However, to personalize the issue by using names to substantiate  our stance is sometimes not productive; we rarely convince others by clubbing them over the head, they may cower in fear, but they will never be convinced of the rightness of our case.

As in some heterosexual relationships, homosexual ones can be challenging, so challenging that one is tempted to ask, where is the love?  Is it beyond us to show some compassion to those relationships we do not understand and cannot agree with?  Is it fair to invoke a religious position to entrench our views?  I do not know.  If the debate is opened it is possible to allow those we have never heard before  express a view.

They will only enter our house if the door is open.

Giving an audience and listening is not necessarily agreeing with what is being said, but it strengthens the reasonableness of our attitude, and gives us time to reflect. Of course there is the alternative view that all such unions are an abomination and are against strongly held religious views and nature, and cannot be reconciled with “good conduct.”   Perhaps we could use the last two words of the last sentence as the “leitmotif” as to the way “we” conduct ourselves in a mature debate about homosexuals in Barbados.

Let us concentrate on the issues not on individuals, if no personal names are used there is  a better  chance  of having an “honest and open debate” with compassion, yet underscored by  strongly held principles.

The door is open we are listening…

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229 responses to “Public Faces, Private Lives: Homosexuality in Barbados”

  1. art Avatar
    art

    David and BU
    I would like to ask your readers to work with me to help you to understand.

    If anyone reading this has ever known anyone gay who did anything productive for Barbados, or for them personally, I am asking to do 2 things:
    1) Come to the thread and say so, and
    2) Give BU a “time out” by refraining from posting any comments on BU over Saturday and Sunday.

    Since BU is a mdium for enriching free speech I do not say boycott- I say speak out first and then with your feetby giving BU a “time out” this 2 day weekend.

    This is not a relevant video to watch:

  2. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    One of the arts most condemned by Christians is the horoscope. Yet among the scroll were horoscopes as we see below. We getting at truth right? Imagine that even back then it was recognised that the stars influence us. Yet even with proof from modern science, Christians still hold out. How intelligent.
    ****************************************

    What did the eleven caves at Qumran yield? Their most familiar contents are texts of the Hebrew Bible-texts (mainly quite fragmentary) for every book but Esther. There are also works based on or related to the Hebrew Bible, sometimes called the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha. Among them are Hebrew and Aramaic texts of works transmitted in secondary versions (1 Enoch, Jubilees, Sirach), as well as previously unknown works (Genesis Apocryphon, “pesharim” or biblical commentaries on the Prophets and Psalms, targums of Job and Leviticus). Moreover, there are many previously unknown “rules” for community life (Community Rule), for the eschatological battle (War Scroll), and for the ideal-temple city (Temple Scroll). Finally there are poetic and liturgical pieces (Thanksgiving Hymns, Songs of the Sabbath Sacrifice), wisdom instructions, legal rulings (4QMMT), horoscopes, and even a treasure map (Copper Scroll).[2]

    http://www.crosscurrents.org/deadsea.htm

    Coming back to you later Carlos. Want to hear what you have to say so far.

  3. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Rok,

    the physikoi were a group of pre-socratic philosophers.

  4. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Good points Cynic & RE Eng.

    If I understand you correctly, you are saying that my argument ignores (or misrepresents) causality. Lets examine this again…

    Your argument:
    Homosexual lifestyle —> Society-Imposed Stressors e.g. hostile ‘closed-minded’ society MAKE homosexuals feel unwelcome —> Increased incidence of health problems and deviant behaviour —> Increased societal costs

    My argument:
    Homosexual lifestyle —> Self-Imposed Stressors e.g. inferiority and self-esteem issues arising from the SELF recognition of being ‘different from the crowd’ —> Increased incidence of health problems and deviant behaviour —> Increased societal costs

    There is some element of ‘truth’ in both positions… but we need to apply the same rigorous scientific treatment to the issue of causality in order to ascertain which argument holds greater sway (or dominance). Again, I recommend that you carry out the research I previously suggested, as causality has been addressed (although not always explicitly) in many of the papers. The research suggests that Self-Imposed Stressors are the dominant causal factors… these relate to (a) Self-concept (i.e the cognitive stress system and personality type/hardness), (b) Self-efficacy and (c) External vs. internal locus of control. It should be borne in mind that EVEN in an environment of social acceptance, homosexual behaviour will ALWAYS be practiced by a minority, and will therefore ALWAYS be exposed to these self-imposed stressors. It is also worthy of note, that much of the research in this area, has been conducted in countries like Denmark, Norway and Sweden where same-sex unions have been legally recognised for close to 20 years.

    @art: High rates of cervical cancer in heterosexuals are linked to SPECIFIC types heterosexual behaviour (i.e high promiscuity and sex at an early age)… GP enlightened us on this a few ‘blogs’ ago.

    @A Gay Person, RE Engineer & ru4real : The scientific literature on homosexuality in the animal kingdom does not support your hypothesis that it might be ‘nature’s way’ of controlling population in species. There is actually allot of field research in this area… the results consistently run counter to the ‘population control hypothesis’. ‘A Gay Person’, I believe the rat population experiments you referred to are the famous ‘Calhoun rats’… that was a fascinating experiment, but the observed increase in homosexuality behaviour was not a population control measure, but due to the increase in mortality rate of females that were unable to cope in the physically demanding and over-crowded environment… it became a densely populated pen of males… like Dodds. Later, similar experiments were conducted by other researchers that provided great insights into the relationship between social interaction and moral decay… you can read more here http://nihrecord.od.nih.gov/newsletters/2008/07_25_2008/story1.htm…

    hmm… what impact is the rapid advance in technology (and the internet in particular) having on the level of human social interaction and our ability to “strike the right balance between privacy and community”?

    RE Engineer… on a related subject (perhaps for discussion over on the ‘Submissions’ thread at a future date), you expressed the view that population levels are ‘going crazy right now’ and need to be kept in check… What do you consider to be a sustainable level for human population… and how did you arrive at the figure?

  5. me Avatar
    me

    So MME are you saying also that blcaks have self imposed stressors hence the higher rates of these issues…
    I think that both play a part. I think that withmore social acceptance then this feeling of diffrenced would be lessened.

    I am please at your willingness to present well thought out arguments.

    BU the fact remains that you focus on what you perceive to likely negative ( in your opinion) outcomes to fairer treatment of gays and lesbians and in so doing you are demonising them. There is more to being gay than sex and this point YOU REFUSE to acknowledge!

  6. David Avatar
    David

    @me
    Oh we acknowledge homosexuals, as we have repeatedly written we respect their right to do as they please. What you seem not to be prepared to accept is that BU mirrors the view of many Barbadians. If a middle ground is to be achieved Gays must respond effectively to the negative argument. The negative mindset is borne in how Barbadians and Caribbean people have been socialized and the culture we have come to accept. To bash this element of thinking in our population will not move the matter forward.
     

  7. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    MME

    I not sure that you can get away with saying that the stressor is self-imposed. Maybe the two theories should be combined because there is a contribution from both society and self or even one supporting or reinforcing the other.

    Since the perosn would have born into the society which has already stigmatised homosexuality, then it would seem that theperson with homosexual tendencies has to struggle with self.

    There seems to be no separation of the two dynamics. This comes back to the reason for the seemingly non-rational behaviour of deciding to follow that tacit feeling. Tacit because this feeling would be an intrinsic part of them.

    This is not to say that homosexuality could not also be a learned behaviour. In this case the self-imposition contribution is much greater almost like social defiance.

    In those earlier rat experiments, what was the end result of the overpopulation? From memory, the rat population was eventually reduced to two; a male and a female. Not finding that right now.

    Wonder what happened to Carlos? Unless he responds (or somebody else) I will not bombard BU family with any more of that research, but what Christians must understand is that they don’t have any monopoly on knowledge or truth. Christianity is no more than any other religion; based on belief and I always say that when you believe, it may or may not be true because you have no proof. That is why it is a belief. Innocent men were jailed and even hung because of what a jury believed.

  8. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    @me: I am not well read on race related issues (which is why I enjoyed following the dialog between Rok and John so much a few days ago… I hope they will continue the discussion again soon). Again, as you have said, both factors play a part… but I am inclined to believe that that societal stressors (i.e. poverty, racial prejudice and the legacy of slavery) are dominant in many of the negative behavioural trends observed in some black communities… this may just be a personal bias (I’ll do some more reading), but to my mind, the fact that homosexuality is a behavior or lifestyle (whether inherited or chosen) whereas race is a MODERN construct that divides people according to PHYSICAL traits, is an important distinction.

  9. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    @Rok… the two theories are combined, but the point I was trying to make is that one is always dominant. As for your comments on the Bible… I leaving GP to deal wid you bo… 🙂

  10. Deng Xiaping Avatar
    Deng Xiaping

    Is homosexuality a lifestyle? as distinct from what? (Most homosexual have no distinguishing features or distinguishing PUBLIC behaviour). The gay and lesbian movement is however a modern construct (which may have had some precusors in the past).

  11. J Avatar
    J

    art wrote on September 26, 2008 at 2:14 pm

    If anyone reading this has ever known anyone gay who did anything productive…for them personally, I am asking to do 2 things:
    1) Come to the thread and say so…

    Dear art:

    My mother had a gay step brother and he was one of the kindest, gentlest uncles a child could want. He had no children himself but he was an excellent uncle and did all the usual things that excellent uncles (or aunts) do. Fed us, gave us money, spoke to us when as children we misbehaved, looked out for us when we were walking along the road to and from school. He was also the village shop keeper back in the 1960’s. He did of old age about 25 years ago. I miss him still.

    Not all gay people are monsters. I dare say that most are regular decent people. I don’t see how a human being can be defined entirely by their sexuality. I am a sexual human being being. But my sexuality is perhaps not the greatest or the best part of me. I HUMAN BEING am bigger than my sexuality. I think perhaps that today many gay people are making the error of defining themselves and letting others define them entirely by their sexuality. It strikes me that there is something wrong with that.

    And no I am NOT gay.

  12. Deng Xiaping Avatar
    Deng Xiaping

    J
    it is serendipitous that your comment should follow mine. I agree with you entirely especially the part “I think perhaps that today many gay people are making the error of defining themselves and letting others define them entirely by their sexuality.”

  13. Carlos Avatar
    Carlos

    To ‘ROK’ I have read carefully all that you submitted from your web research; I’m very familiar with all of it, nothing new at all, nor does any of its quotes go to the very ‘heart’ of the core ‘TRUTH’ the very essence, of God’s Word.

    Now, are you in any way trained, by way of qualifications, i.e., Bible College, or Seminary, that is, do you understand the many and distinct displines of study that are required to properly and soundly understand what your are attempting to do, obviously not, as you do understand what you ‘quoted’ from, and the points made, which in no way establishes what you are attempting to do, that is, ‘Scoff’ at and discredit the Biblical record of God’s Word.

    In short, what you are seeking to do, is like an ‘unqualified’ lay person, in say, Medicine, Law, Biology, Engineering, etc, etc., reading one of their professional web sites, and then trying, though unqualified, to make sense of their displine, which you know little or nothing about, then pontificating on matters that you are ‘ignorant’ about, (lacking knowledge or education), this is a very silly thing to do; but I welcome what you have done, nevertheless, as it opens up the discusion for the ‘Truth’ to be told.

    However, it must be clearly understood, that the disciplne of ‘Theology’ the study of God’s Word, the Bible, unlike any other, is one that has being attacked more viciously and malignantly over the centuries, by Satan and his emissaries, from way back in Genesis, when he sought to influence Adam and Eve, away from its ‘Truth’ by perverting and twisting what God had said to them.

    We must also be weary of ‘pseudo’ scholars, masquerding under the banner of Christianity, for the sole purpose of discrediting the Bible, they have all failed in their attempt, one by one, as none of their spurious attempts hold any weight in light of all that is required historically, logically, and by ‘law’ evidential proof.

    For, as Jesus said, “…I will build My church, and the gates of Hades (Hell) SHALL NOT prevail against it.” (Matt. 16: 18b).

    I’ll be back in a few moments to give you a scratch of the abundance of evidence confirming the validity of the Bible as God’s Word to mankind.

  14. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    MME

    I really detest labels because they fit people into boxes. I just promised not to deal with Carlos unless he responds, but I was just going over some of his comments and I think for clarity, I had better explain what I meant by universal application.

    He quoted:
    “Who knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death,” (Rom. 1:32a)

    Let us examine this quote for universal application. First we have to understand that death is the ultimate price. It is therefore used in this context to create a sense of what is wholesome and what is not. It did not mean that if you have sex with your own gender, when you finish you will die.

    So the universal application with respect to homosexuality would be that homosexuality is not desireable. However, within the context of the time, the message would have to be dread, given the lack of proper hygeine and other cultural practices, such as washing in the same water, etc. This universal message is the same with marraige, i.e. one partner at a time. So you don’t sleep with two or three of your wives in the same night, and probably not in the same week and certainly not before you wash and definitely not when she is seeing her period. The precaution needed to be greater at that time.

    This is always why I advise people to find out more about these people we are reading about. You need to read up on their culture or the culture that prevailed at the time. Homosexuality was rife and also was beastiality. A shepherd out on a long haul would choose his favourite lamb and carry it in his hand too. The fact of Sodom and Gommorah is testament to this social behaviour. The men that surrounded Lot’s house and demanded to “know” his guests.

    These cities were suffering from the same cluttering and over-crrowding that we see today, because the only place to live was in the security of a town. So everybody lived in a town. You would not find houses miles apart unless the household was large and the owner had his security.

    But look at Carlos’ interpretation of this:
    “physical death, and ultimate eternal death, separation from God.” How emotional can one get? He carry it to the wire.

  15. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    oh by the way Rok… the Calhoun rats stopped reproducing (they eventually became asexual), the females died-off and the population dwindled down to a small group of males who were only interested in eating, sleeping and grooming themselves… Cahoun referred to this group as the ‘beautiful ones’ due to their beautiful, healthy coats… it was really quite really fascinating… and scary.

  16. J Avatar
    J

    Dear art:

    I don;’t know how old you are. You seem pretty young to me.

    The truth is that in Barbados it is well know that middle aged gay sons and daughters (along with heterosexual daughters, granddaughters, neices etc.) are often excellent caregivers for their elderly parents.

    My sister’s gay brother in law, who was living in Engand packed up and came home in his parents in their declining years.

    He had no spouse nor children and was a self employed hairdresser, therefore when his parents needed care he was able to move quickly to return here.

    He spent more than 5 years looking after the elderly couple.

    You ask if gay people have done anything for Barbados?

    The answer is yes.

    I believe that the cost to the TAX PAYERS of keeping an elder in a district hospital is $150 per day.

    If a gay son or daughter (or a heteosexual one) keeps his elderly parents out of the district hospital for 5 years, the potential saving to the TAX PAYERS is $546,000 (almost half a million dollars) that is a lot of money.

    Just yesterday the Minister of health is qouted as was saying that there are elderly people who occupy beds at the QEH.

    I say if all of those elders had a loving gay (or heteosexual) son or daughter who was willing and able to look after them then the savings to the tax payers of Barbados would be in the tens of millions of dollars.

    Gay people in Barbados, especially gay people of middle age and older have long been care givers.

    I know that I will rile the fundamentalists “Christians” but maybe gayness is an evolutionary adaptation to ensure that at all times some part of the adult population is nor pre-occupied by the herculean tasks of childbearing and child rearing, that some part of every population is free to take care of other family members.

    Everybody can now stone me.

  17. J Avatar
    J

    Every family in Barbados should be blessed with a gay son or daughter.

  18. J Avatar
    J

    Correct that to read:

    Every family in Barbados should be blessed with a LOVING gay son or daughter.

  19. Bush tea Avatar
    Bush tea

    I waiting to see how long it will take you people to come to the following conclusions:

    1) Gayness is not a reason to hate or discriminate against anyone.

    2) It is ONLY LUCK that any one of us is not gay.

    3) Gay people (as opposed to those who prostitute themselves out of greed or folly) are NOT to blame personally for their condition.

    HOWEVER:

    a) Gayness is UNNATURAL
    b) There is no relationship between being GAY and being BLACK ‘me’, so drop that line. (In any case you probably mean white, since the original and natural human state is BLACK)
    c)Everyone (including gays themselves) knows instinctively that this condition reflects something AMISS in nature – and people naturally tend to react aggressively out of ignorance of the facts.

    On the spiritual level,

    Gayness is a manifestation of spiritual filthiness. EXACTLY like humans become ill with diseases when exposed to physical filth, this is the SPIRITUAL EQUAL.

    Unless corrective cleanup actions are taken, the ‘sickness’ will spread, endangering the WHOLE community. (just like a physical plague).

    Increased incidences of gayness is therefore a call for community standards of truth, justice, honesty and righteousness to be RAISED….. the alternative will be too frightening to contemplate.

    … to avoid such dread consequences, Sodom and Gomorra were destroyed at that time in order to protect the remainder of mankind from the spreading spiritual plague. …it is that dire.

    Conclusion,
    1) There is to point or reason for hating each other
    2) Gays cannot seriously seek to have their lifestyle deemed as ‘normal’ – IT ISN’T.
    3) The UN /World Band /First world agenda of forcing us to accept gayness as normal is asking us to accept a spiritually filthy world as normal… and is the path to global chaos.(which is coming…)

    ….MME,
    ..what I like most about BBE is the sense of humour. Can you think of a recent phenomenon where we have approached a problem with a spreading deadly disease (physical example) by defining the condition as natural -rather than seek to deal with the root cause?… (HINT…you should not need any help to solve this one….)

    ..a word to the wise is sufficient.

  20. Deng Xiaping Avatar
    Deng Xiaping

    Bush tea, how can gayness be “unnatural” (especially when you wrote that “it is only luck that anyone of us is not gay)? What do you mean by unnatural?

  21. Bush tea Avatar
    Bush tea

    ..I feel you laughing at me Deng.

    Unnatural simply means ‘outside of the normal and established order of things’… (that is from Bush tea’s own dictionary.)

    …a person born with three eyes woudld e unnatural

    …a person born with a photographic memory is unnatural

    …Usain Bolt is unnatural.

    …Gays are unnatural

    It is only luck (or God’s will) that any of us do not fall into the above categories.

    …chemicals and pollutants may cause deformed babies to be born.

    statistical chance and genetics cause babies like Bolt to be born.

    a sinful and wicked environment cause gayness.

    ..I hope this helps.

  22. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Carlos,

    Sorry to upset your bubble but the Bible is basically a history of the Israelites and the Jews. Please don’t tell me about God’s word. You choose to believe that.

    I will not for one moment tell you that there are not important principles in life that are there. Very, very important. That however does not take away from what it is. You believe whatever you like, but the fact that we speaking about “a selection” out of thousands of documents, written over thousands of years and put together hundreds of years after they were written, could seriously tell me about the word of God.

    Which seminary you went to? Any priest worth his salt will tell you it is a matter of belief. That it is a personal decision. Why would a priest worth his salt tell you that? Because he himself is aware of the flaws of the Bible. Some of them go through the motions because it is acceptable.

    After cornering him with the facts (and he took me down to the wire), a former Principal of Codrington College once admitted these unforgetable words, “I would not be a priest if I did not go in the pulpit and say what people want to hear”. For him, he did not believe half of it and yet, he defended it to the bone and reached the highest echelons of the priesthood too.

    So don’t tell me about study. The problem with a lot of these seminaries and colleges is that they stick to the word and its academic interpretation. The historical facts are pushed into the background and rendered unimportant.

    Look at the constructs of Christianity; event leading up to the famous Council of Nicea and the emergence of the Nicene Creed. It’s all politics. Where is the faith? What about the Nicene Creed that is truth?

  23. J Avatar
    J

    Dear BT:

    Usain Bolt is NOT unnatural.

    Usain Bolt is EXTRA-ORDINARY (and real cute too)

    That is way, way ahead of ordinary people.

  24. Bush tea Avatar
    Bush tea

    argued like a true woman J…. emotionally sound…. but…

    ‘Extraordinary’ is almost by definition unnatural….. (so is real cute…)

  25. Deng Xiaping Avatar
    Deng Xiaping

    I try to laugh WITH people not AT people.

    Language is such a malleable thing. My dictionary defines unnatural as “not natural or according to nature; without natural affection: monstrous: heinous.

    Now the same dictionary defines natural as “pertaining to, produced by or according to nature; not miraculous: not the work of men; not interferred with by man; inborn; having the feelings that may be expected to come from nature, kindly; normal; happening in the usual course; spontaneous; not far fetched; not acquired; not fictitious; without affectation etc.

    Futhermore, I am sure that you have done at least one advanced course in statistics and should therfore be in a position to use the word “normal” judiciously.

    My critique of your preamble aside, your novel contribution to this debate (at this point) is your assertion that “a sinful and wicked environment cause gayness.”

    This is a simple and interesting position. (Simplicity is a very very favourable attribute for as Einstein once said “Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage — to move in the opposite direction.”) However to engage you futher in any meaningful way may require consensus on the existence and commands of God unless we can agree that a state opposite to that which is sinful and wicked can be achieved regardless of such belief or non-belief. It has been argued that in fact the treatment of gays like the past treatment of women, blacks, even left handed people (i.e those deemed not “normal” ) was symptomatic of wicked societies.

  26. Carlos Avatar
    Carlos

    ROK, back to you now, let me first deal with a few of the things you said, and have questions about.

    1. “Why would the Lord have to come down to see man’s tower? Omniscient?”

    Almighty God, at times in His ‘Word’ communicated to mankind, in language that is called, “Anthropomorphism/Anthropomorphic.” A description of God in human terms or with physical characterics. Exo. “God saw” (Gen. 1:4), the “arm’ of the Lord” (Isa. 51:9), “The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma” (Gen. 8:21). Or in “Anthropopathism/Anthropopathy.” The attributes of human emotion or feelings to God. Heb: “the Lord’s anger” (Exod. 4:14), “you do not delight” (Psa. 51:16. Gk. “the kindness and sternness of God” (Rom. 11:22)This was obviously done by God, in order to relate to mankind, using a frame of reference in language that we could understand. Of course God is ‘Omniscient’ but at times communicated in the Anthropomorphic/Anthropopathic expressions for our benifit.

    2. “Who is this ‘us’ he is referring to? Is this a power sharing something that the Lord had to get a consensus from his peers.”

    Certainly not ROK, again this is an allusion or indirect reference to the plurality of ‘Persons’ in the Eternal Godhead’ that is, “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”, which was not given full revelation in the Old Testament, but then fully revealed in the New Testament dispensation.

    The Scriptures give us the revelation of the eternal Godhead, who has revealed Himself as ‘One’ God, existing in ‘three’ persons, even the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; distinguishable, but indivisible in essence, power, and glory. There is bit one eternal Godhead, who is one undivided and indivisible essence; and in this one essence there are three eternal distinctions, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; hence the expression, “us’ is understood theologically as referring to the three persons in the Godhead.

    ROK, this cannot be fathomed not completely understood by any ‘finite’ being, it has to be received by ‘Faith’ as those of us do, who accept God’s Word as true. There are many things about God that no one will ever comprehend solely by reason or intellect, this is why it has to be by ‘Faith.’

    3. “It is strange that the Lord would sow seeds of wickedness among men cause them not to understand one another, for building a tower. How much more higher are our skyscrapers.”

    Firstly, you cannot isolate this one verse “Come let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech” (Gen. 11:7) from the context of the narrative that precede and follows it, otherwise you’ll fail to understand why God did this.

    Noah’s descendants (those at Babel) reverted quickly to ‘pagan’ idolatrous practices of worship, which God had sternly forbidden, so the Lord decided to ‘confuse’ their language and then ‘scattered’ them. What they intended as human effort became a symbol of divine judgment on human ‘pride’ and self-ruin.

    We find here the answer to why there are so many languages on the earth, and why the human race spread so rapidly across the Earth after the flood. From the birth of Arphaxad to Abraham’s migration is nine generations, 365 years.

    Now, here is a brief look at “The reliability of the Bible’ Confirmation by Historical Text.” The Realibility and Trustworthiness of Scripture.

    The salient point is this, that the same ‘criteria’ a principle or standard that a thing is judged by, that is, that has being used by scholars in order to evaluate, assess and determine the ‘validity’ of ‘ALL’ documents of antiquity, as being reliable and trustworthy, must, and in fact has been assiduously used in evaluating the manuscripts of the New Testament, and they pass the test with ‘flying’ colours, way above any other ancient document.

    Here is just a bit of the evidence in support of the reliability of the New Testament documents.

    C. Sanders in ‘Introduction to Research in English Literary History’ list and explains the ‘three’ basic principles of historiography. They are the ‘biliographical test’ ‘the interal evidence test’ and ‘the external evidence test’. 81/143ff. ‘Evidence That Demands a Verdict’ ‘Historical Evidences For The Christian Faith’ by Josh McDowell, p.39.

    “The Bibliographical Test for the Relialibility of the New Testament”

    “The bibliographical test is an examination of the textual transmission by which documents reach us. In other words, since we do not have the original documents (autographs), how reliable are the copies (manuscripts) we have in regard to the number of manuscripts (MSS) and the time interval between the original and the extant copy” 64/26.

    “F.F. Peters points out that ‘on the basis of manuscript tradition alone, the works that made up the Christians’ New Testament were the most frequently copied and widely circulated book of antiquity.” 65/50.

    MANUSCRIPT EVIDENCE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.

    “There are more than 5,300 known Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Add over 10,000 Latin Vulgate and at least 9,300 other early versions (MSS) and we have more than 24,000 manscript copies or portions of the New Testament in existence.”

    “No other document of ANTIQUITY even begins to approach such numbers and attestation. In comparision, the ‘Illiad’ of Homer is second with only 643 manuscripts that still survive. The firsr complete preserved text of Homer dates from the 13th century.” 58/145.

    “John Warwick Montgomery says that “to be skeptical of the resultant text of the New Testament books is to allow all of classical antiquity to slip into obscurity, for NO documents of the ancient period are as well attested bibliographically as the New Testament.” 64/29.

    “Sir Frederic G. Kenyon, who was the director and principle librarian of the British Museum and second to none in authority for issuing statements about MSS, says, “…besides number, the manuscripts of the New Testament differ from those of the classical authors, and this time the difference is clear gain. In NO other case is the interval of the time between the composition of the book and the date of the earliest extant manuscripts so short, as in that of the New Testament.” 48/4.

    “kenyon continues in ‘The Bible and Archaeology

  27. Deng Xiaping Avatar
    Deng Xiaping

    So Bush tea, while ROK, Carlos, GP, MME and others struggle to establish just what is the nature of God and what He commands us to do; the rest of us lessor mortals will have to try our best to build a society based on empiricism and rational analysis (that is by using relevant scientific theories, reliable research and availbale data), democratic principals, the rule of law and ethical principles, chief of which starts with “do unto others…!

    Thus where policy decisions require a moral dimension, we should apply ethical reasoning – i.e. a moral argument based on logic, observation and experience.

  28. Deng Xiaping Avatar
    Deng Xiaping

    Sum ting wong wong:

    before J raps me on the blogging knuckles, I should have written “lesser mortals” and “available data, democratic principles”.

  29. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Carlos

    You want to pontificate, let me pontificate too.

    First, God is omniscient because everything is God.

    The plurality of God has to do with being part of everything too.

    I like how they have moved from the Holy “Ghost” to the Holy “Spirit”… but father, son and holy ghost; body, spirit and soul (maybe mind).

    Two wrongs don’t make a right. Why did not God go and counsel them, even if he went already without success? Why take advantage of frightened people who did not know any better?

    Why so many languages? Certainly not because of the tower of Babel. This is another one of the myths to try to place all of earth’s happening within the Bible, when it cannot be so. Even the great flood. there is scientific evidence of Altantis though.

    Certainly the different languages have to do with lack of communications given the distance between civilisations… but what you would have us believe is that at the time of Babel, Frenchmen were there, Asians were there, the Amerindian was there, a representative from all the African and European languages were there and somehow all of a sudden, they scattered into an identity of their own.

    This is part of what I mean by the fairy tale approach to interpreting the Bible. You reading too much comics and watching too much TV. The imagination gone wild.

    You cannot define a word by using it or referring back to it for meaning. If you start a long division sum wrong it cannot end up right.

    I hope you understand that the scholars agree to disagree. That is why there are so many versions. Just a question of, this is my opinion and that is yours; leave others to judge; some will like or prefer mine and others will prefer yours. Point is, out of the two which is right? Does any have to be right? Maybe there is truth in both, ever consider that?

    Why gaze ye up in the heavens; what sign do you want? I shall come like a thief in the night.

    So this is not about a question of Babel, or Sodom, or any of that. This is about you; bottom line; Man know thyself; The kingdom of God is at hand; live righteously. Do not condemn homosexuals to a life of doom and stigmatise them and turn up your nose at them. If Christ was here he would not do that, he would put out a helping hand. There is always hope. He led by example; by his works; and Christians should do the same rather than passing value justments and using the Bible to support such un-godly actions. Actually, that is a misuse of what you call, “God’s Word” because you using it to perpetrate an injustice.

    No! No! No!, you got that wrong. There are no 5300 manuscripts of the New Testament. It is that out of thousands of documents that the few chapters making up the testaments were chosen.

    Of course the New Testament is more recent and probably more accurate, but even then. Let us take a look at Luke and we see what is happening. Check the very first verse where Luke is claiming that in as much as many have written about the life of Christ, this (his) is the most true and exact version, since as he claims, he spoke to those who were alive at the time of Christ.

    So how old was Luke when he was writing. Anybody who would have lived in the time of Christ when Luke was writting would have to have been a child. How accurate would have been that testimony? Even so, Luke is admitting that he would have been the most recent of a line of scribes that set down the account.

    Much of the Bible was not about reporting but commentary based on oral tradition long after the main players were deceased. So even at the point of source you have problems. So bibliograhical tests are purely an academic exercise. Except for Acts, hardly any of the players wrote. Moses certainly did not write. Let us not argue about that because no man has been able to write about his death and events afterwards. All of this was oral history set down from time to time. We know what happens to anything oral. Like Ossie Moore.

    You have not addressed the kinks in the Bible, you are using it as an authority unto itself by first declaring it the word of God and then proceeding to use what you want out of it as authority.

  30. Carlos Avatar
    Carlos

    I clicked the ‘submit’ by error, I’ll pick up from,

    “Kenyon continues in ‘The Bible and Archaeology’ the interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligble, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the AUTHENTICITY and the GENERAL INTEGRITY of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established.” 46/288.

    |F.J.A Hort rightfully adds, “in the variety and fulness of the evidence on which it rests the text of the New Testament stands absolutely and unapproachable ALONE among ancient prose writings.” 43/561.

    J. Harold Greelee states, “…the number of available MSS of the New Testament is overwhelmingly greater than those of any other work of ancient literature. In the third place, the earliest extant MSS of the N.T. were written much closer to the date of the original writing than is the case in almost any other piece of ancient literature.” 37/15.

    F.F Bruse says, “There is no body of ancient literature in the world which enjoys such wealth of good textual attestation as the New Testament.” 15/178.

    Bruce Metzger observes, “Of all the literary compositions by the Greek people, the Homeric poems are the best suited for comparison with the Bible.” 61/144 He adds: ” In the entire range of ancient Greek and Latin literature, the ‘Illiad’ ranks next to the New Testaments in possessing the greatest amount of manuscript testimony.

    E.G. Turner points out that Homer was no doubt the most widely reas author in antiquity. 92/97.

    In comparing Homer with the New Testament documents, bearing in mind always, that Homer’s ‘Illiad’ past the stringent test to determine its reliability and trustworthiness as a document of antiquity, even though the first COPY of Homer was made 500 years after it was first written, and there are ONLY 643 extant copies.

    In the case of the New Testament it was written between 40 -100 A.D, a time span of just 25 years, not 500 years as in the Homer, and Christendom has over 24,000 extant copies.

    F.F. Bruce states: “It cannot be too strongly asserted that in substance the text of the Bible is certain. Especially is this the case with the New Testament. The number of manuscripts of the New Testament, of early translations from it, and of the quotations from it in the oldest writers of the Church, is so large that it is practically certain that the true reading of every doubtful passage is preserved in some one or the other of these ancient authorities. THIS CAN BE SAID OF NO OTHER ANCIENT BOOK IN THE WORLD.” 49/23.

    Gleason Archer, in answering the question about objective evidence, shows that the variants or errors in transmission of the text DO NOT affect God’s revelation:

    “A careful study of the variants (different readings) of the various earliest manuscripts reveals that NONE of them affects a SINGLE doctrine of Scripture. The system of spiritual truth contained in Hebrew text of the Old Testament is NOT in the slightest altered or compromised by any of the variant readings found in the Hebrew manuscripts of earlier date found in the Dead Sea caves or anywhere else. All that is needed to verify this is to check the register of well-attested variants in Rudolf Kittel’s edition of the Hebew Bible. It is very evident that the vast majority of them are so inconsequential as to leave the meaning of each clause doctrinally unaffected.” 10/25.

    “Benjamin Warfield said, “If we compare the present state of the New Testament text with that of any other ancient writing, we must…declare it to be marvelously correct. Such has been the care with which the New Testament has been copied – a care which has doubtless grown out of true reverence for its holy words – such has been the providence of God in preserving for His Church in each and every age a competently exact text of the Scriptures, that not only is the New Testament unrivalled among ancient writings in the purity of its text as actually transmitted and kept in use, but also in the abundance of testimony which has come down to us for castigating its comparatively infrequent blemishes.” 100/12,13.

    Frederic G. Kenyon continues in ‘The Story of the Bible’ “It is reassuring at the end to find that the general result of all these discoveries (of manuscripts) and all this study is to strengthen the proof of the autnenticity of the Scriptures, and our conviction that we have in our hands, in substantial integrity, the veritable Word of God.” 50/113.

    The foregoing is just scratching the surface of the amazing inquiry and evidence supplied by astute scholars, after painstaking research over many long periods of time; I’ve only quoted from a few of these great minds in support of the absolute reliability and trustworthiness of God’s Word, which He has allowed to come down to all of us in tact.

    The range of scholars, from historians, lawyers, etc, etc., all confirming that the Biblical records, and their account of the birth, live, crucifixion, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, cannot be refuted in light of these established facts.

    I’ll conclude this brief, but concise look at the evidence, with the words of:

    “John Singleton Copley, better known as Lord Lyndhurst (1772-1863), was recognised as one of the greatest legal minds in British history. When Chancellor Lyndhurst died, a document was found in his desk among his private papers, giving an extended account of his own Christian faith, he wrote. “I know pretty well what evidence is; and I tell you, such evidence as that for the Resurrection has never broken down yet.

    “The evidence points unmistakably to the fact that on the third day Jesus rose.”

    This was the conclusion to which the former Chief Justice of England, Lord Darling came: “In its favour as living truth there exist such overwhelming evidence, positive, negative, factual, circumstantial, that no intelligent jury in the world could fail to bring in a verdict that the Resurrection story is true.”

    ROK, faith and reason go hand in hand, God has not only asked us to ‘believe’ but also to ‘reason’ as our ‘Faith’ is a reasonable faith, not a ‘blind’ faith. You are way out and beyond your depth of knowledge and understanding in what your are attempting to do with the ‘Bible’ scoffing at it, great numbers over history have tried what you are attempting to do, they all failed, as you are NOT fighting against me, but Almight God, Be carefull what you do!

  31. Bush tea Avatar
    Bush tea

    Deng,
    …take my foolish advise and leave MME out of that list you have there hear? MME is another one that Bush tea has classified an ‘unnatural’.
    …that Bajan is some kind of genius who knows a lot more than he lets on….
    I feel that he is a key card in helping BU family to unravel many of these mysteries….

    With respect to you assessment of my ‘simple’ position, … another way to look at it is that when once one understands the basics of a complex structure, one is able to explain various aspects in very simple terms.

    I could therefore explain quite simply, the initial steps to be taken is solving six simultaneous equations using Gauss-Seidel method; or even how Lenz’s law explains the workings of an electric motor.

    Just maybe, my ‘simple’ explanation of the nature of homosexuality reflects a good understanding of the nature of life, of God and of the spiritual laws that DIRECTLY and ROUTINELY impact on everything that we do.

    As I have said before, the fact that most people are unaware of these spiritual laws hardly matters any more than the fact that most never heard of Gauss -Seidel or Lenz.

    The consequences of spiritual laws are MUCH MORE immediate and drastic that those of the physical laws that we understand.
    … see if you can find any ‘scientific’ explanation of the cause of homosexuality anywhere….??

    Think about this for a while….
    REALITY IS SPIRITUAL!!!

    What we think of as ‘real’, and ‘life’, and ‘important’, is nothing more than a minor ‘project’ in the grand scheme of things, where some BIG BOSS ENGINEERS (BBE) have created a temporary laboratory (called the Universe), with a limited timeframe, all centered around a central being called MAN….(who was constructed in BBE’s image- in a physical, temporary body – for a special reason)

    This phase of the project is just about winding up and a completely new phase is about to get started shortly.

    If this reality is understood, then almost everything else falls into place – from CSME to US politics – and its pending demise…

  32. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    I wonder what is God’s plot against the Church now because they have so much idols in the place. Well, come to think about it the plot in motion because they all move out of the traditional churches and gone to Pilgrim Holiness, Seventh Day Adventists, Church of God, Tie Heads, Witnesses, etc. So the Chuch speaking different languages now. At least people hearing different messages. Some even gone back further to make it relevant to their present lives so we now have disciples and apostles.

    While you may think I making sport, I want you to look at the reality. We are talking about a God that was produced by man for all intents and purposes, given the evidence today. Except for the Patriarch, His Grace Dr. Granville Williams, I have not heard any of the priests say that they communicate with God in the subtle way that he recalled his youth. Like God was always part of him.

    I don’t know if you heard him, but he said for example, that at one time he had no money to replenish his larder but whenever he got home it was replenished. He even said that he double checked on his partner to ensure that it was not him that was doing it and sure enough he found no guilt in his partner. I was not he, so it had to be God.

    Now for a man to say this so calmly, one may say he is a liar now, but when the history is written long after he is gone, it will be that it happened; you wait and see if you live long enough. Granville may then be reverred by the Sons of God as the man who walked with God that met with the Chiefs of the nations of the world.

  33. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Carlos

    I am sure I am not fighting against God. God knows that I am on his side fighting against the wilful perpetration of a crime against humanity. God alone is Judge according to your faith. This should tell you something. He said vengance is mine. It is therefore not yours. You are supposed to treat your brother as yourself. How am I fighting against God when I tell you that? What are you doing when you treat your brother with scorn? Is that God’s will?

    I keep telling you that the accounts of the Bible are wriiten within the narrow vision of men that lived at that time. All they did was make observations. Let’s go through a few.

    What was it that the angels had in their hands when they pulled back in Lot and smote the men with blindness?

    Why if they were angels that could appear and disapear did they have to smite the men with blindness in order to get away? They should have gone through the roof laughing.

    A pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day led the Hebrews across the wilderness. What was that?

    Why when Aaron built the Golden Calf didn’t he have to persuade God not to destroy the Hebrews and reminded him that he would be fulfilling the warning of the Egyptians, but yet, when Moses got down from Mount Sinai, he broke the tablets written with the “fingers” of God and that night 3000 men died? What does this tell you about God and Moses?

    What was the thing like a dove that came down and said, “this is my beloved son”? What is the significance of the Halo?

    Now that Judge got caught up. If I was him I would come to the same conclusion too, because if human moved the stone who did? Of course you know the parallel story, that the disciples came and got his body to eat it? The judge obviously ingored this piece of evidence because if the authorities believed that this is what the disciples did, it meant that they did not put it past a clever plan by men to move the stone. yes the disciples denied it but Peter denied Christ already.

    Within the context of my prelude is a background that if the Judge had weighed this evidence carefully, he would have seen a definite pattern of manipulation. First the physical nature of the angels; second the fact that God only discerned the calf after it was completed; third that Moses’ reaction when he came down the mountain was virtually the same as God’s, hence, he threw down the tablets in rage. One thing to hear but another to see.

    Finally, if he made the connection between the physical and mental characteristics, he would have to come to the conclusion that a race of people were being manipulated by a greater force and the nature of that force.

    When we talk about God we personalise it and say Him as I did above. Taking your own words and understanding that God is everything, the magnitude becomes understandably impossible to comprehend. Not by just saying so as you do. The next thing is whether or not you accept the faith, as a human being the vastness of God is still incomprehensible; so those who receive the aith can see no further than anybody else. You may know God is there but have no idea what God is beyond our own environment and as far as we can see.

  34. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Sorry, Moses had to persuade God not to destroy the Israelites to the last man. Moses came down and killed 3000.

  35. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    BT… you like to mek mock sport at de I&I nuh… (I brushing up on my rastafari overstanding for a later discussion with Rok) LOL…

    … man I just here discussing and learning as I go along like everybody else.

    Rok… I was surprised when you referred to the movement as RastafarianISM 🙂

  36. Cynic Avatar
    Cynic

    Does anyone have a link to the Calhoun rat study. I can’t find any direct reports.

  37. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    MME

    Why is that? I cannot claim to be of the faith. I am as much an outsider looking in. Can’t deny a strong identification with its members, but the Biblical base is the same… but on hindsight, I agree with you, that was a bit careless. Actually, it is Rastafarinity

  38. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Check this one now. The one above had in a mistake:
    http://nihrecord.od.nih.gov/newsletters/2008/07_25_2008/story1.htm

  39. J Avatar
    J

    Bush Tea wrote”argued like a true woman J…. emotionally sound…. but…”

    Surely you can come up with a better rebuttal than to make references to my supposed gender.

    Forgive me for thinking that this was a forum of IDEAS

  40. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    J,

    You have me wondering if you are asexual. You like a lot of grooming?

    If you are, you can do one of two things; you can bore a hole and leave it or alternatively plant an okra tree in it. One of them would fix the problem.

    Is that the solution for assexuals? Is that a correct concept for the phenomenon? You see, this is a forum for ideas.

  41. J Avatar
    J

    Dear ROK:

    As it happens I love okras. I have about 50 in the freezer right now. You want some? And the trees in the back yard are in full bloom. I will be picking fresh okras everyday for the rest of the year. And I have some dried ones ready for planting next year.

    No I am not asexual.

    I have a highly satisfactory and happy sex life.

    But thanks for asking.

  42. Bush tea Avatar
    Bush tea

    J,

    Don’t let us fall out over such a simple matter.
    What!!! Are you ashamed of being a woman now? …. or do you still fail to see that “unnatural” does NOT have to mean ‘bad’ or ‘warped’? It simply means NOT NATURAL.

    What IDEAS what???

    BU is a forum to exchange information and feelings…. and emotions. Bush tea fully respects that reality, and indeed looks forward to your unique contributions.
    However facts ARE facts…. no matter how cute.

  43. Carlos Avatar
    Carlos

    To those who are able to ‘reason’ rationally, logically, and coherently, arrive at true conclusion, based upon facts and evidence.

    Truth by definition is exclusive, absolute. Those who claim that truth does not vary from person to person, group to group, accept absolute truth, also called ‘objective’ truth.

    On this view, people discover truth, they do NOT create it, and a claim is made true or false in some way or other by ‘reality’ itself, totally independant of whether this claim is accept by anyone. Moreover, and absolute truth conforms to the three fundamental ‘Laws of Logic’ which are themselves absolute truth.

    Down through the ages people have asked the same question that Pilate asked Jesus. What is truth? What exactly is it?

    The Christian faith, as well as its rivals, essentially contain claims about reality, which are either ‘True’ or ‘False’. Moreover, competing ‘truth’ claims especially those at the core of competing worldviews, often have diffferent consequences for life. As C.S. Lewis put it:

    “We are not getting to the point at which different beliefs about the universe lead to different behaviour. Religion invloves a series of statements about facts, which must either be ‘True’ or ‘False’ if they are true, one set of conclusions will follow about the right sailing of the human fleet; if they are false, quite a different set.”

    This notion of truth employed in Lewis’ statement is called the ‘correspondence theory of truth’ roughly, the idea that truth is a matter of a proposition (belief, thought, statement, representation) corresponding to ‘reality’ therefore truth obtains when reality is the way a proposition represents it to be.

    LAWS OF LOGIC.

    The three fundamental principles in the laws of logic, are themselves ‘absolute’ truth, are are universal regardless of culture, race, creed or ethnicity.

    1) The Law of Identity.
    2) The Law of Non-Contradiction.
    3) The Law of Excluded Middle.

    Assessing ‘world views’ bears out the utterly fundamental grounding of logic for thinking about truth and world views. These logical laws point us toward truth.

    Reason is necessary for revelation to be coherent.

    Without the ‘laws of logic’ no though would be possible. To reject these basic logical laws, one would have to utilize these very laws to reject them, which then would be self-refuting! As G.K. chesterton writes:

    “The man who begins to think without proper first principles goes mad; he begins to think at the wrong end.

    Or, as Gordon Clark says: “Anyone who disparages or belittles logic must use logic in his attack, thus undercutting his own argument.”

    Basic Laws of Reason.

    LAW OF IDENTITY.

    The law of identity is basic and foundational for the other basic laws of logic. LI asserts that a particular entity is ‘precisely’ that particular object. In other words, it is identical to itself. For example, “This red pen is this red pen” IT IS NOT the ‘blue pen.”

    The law of identity implies that if you can find something true of X that is NOT true of Y, then X and Y are not identical.

    THE LAW OF NON-CONTRADICTION.

    That is, A cannot be -A in the same respect or same time. In other words, two ‘competing’ Truth-claims, cannot be both right, in the same respect or same time. They can be both wrong, but they cannot be both right. Competing ‘World views’ are all making truth claims, and the only sound way or method of evaluating their respective truth claims, is by utilizing these unalterable, unchanging, law of logic.

    THE LAW OF EXCLUDED MIDDLE.

    A true statement is one that corresponds to reality. If statement “X” is true, corresponds to reality, then this implies that not “-X” is false. In other words, if something is ‘true’ this must exclude something, namely ‘falsity’ we are left with two exhaustive options, TRUTH or FALSITY.

    The LEM entails that no third way is possible.

    The Historic Judeo/Christian Worldview.

    This world view essentially contains claims about reality which are either True or False.

    Therefore, any world view must be subjected to, and must sustain (3) test in order to be considered valid.

    1) Logical Consistency
    2) Empirical Adequacy
    3) Experiential Relevance.

    The only World View, that meet and sustain all three of these, is the Historic Judeo/Christian faith.

    Secondly, and intricately connected to the above criteria for validity, every system nust also demonstrate and deal with the following questions.

    1) Origin
    2) Meaning
    3) Morality
    4) Destiny

    Again, the theistic Christian World view, is the only one that convincingly demonstrate, answers to and sustains the above questions, unparalleled with any other religious or philosophical world view.

    This obviously will annoy and agitate many, but facts, evidence, and logical conclusions, though they can be blatantly rejected and denied, simply cannot be refuted.

    As Aristotle said: “To say of what IS, that it IS, or of what IS not that it IS not, is true.”

    Thus, truth is grounded is intentionality.

    The Lord Jesus Christ is the absolute, eternal embodiment of ‘Truth’ therefore, you cannot separate ‘His’ person from what He said, declared, and did, as recorded in the divinely inspired documents of New Testament Scripture, whose authenticity and trustworthiness, have been established, and cannot be refuted, other than by grossly intellectually dishonest means.

    “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE, No one comes to the Father except through Me.” (John. 14:6) emphasis added.

  44. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Carlos,

    I think I will have to curtail this debate with you because you are going over the same thing over and over again and using your own arguments to defeat your own arguments.

    Tell me about belief and I will hear you. Agreed, truth is apparent and is for the most part subjective and not objective. You may want to claim yours is objective truth but how can you claim that when you start with subject grund norms?

    Unless you were there, and even if you were there, you still could not tell me about objective truth. To use the term is a non-sequitor. Even scientific principles which hold fast for centuries are either qualified in the long run or refuted. We are yet to deal with e=mc2 and I am sure that time will come.

    Don’t tell me about what Jesus said which you read in a book written by men and would wish to pass off as the word of God. That is nonsense. That is your truth and you don’t have any monopoly on truth. These are the reasons why Christians have been persecuted in the past, mocked, etc. because they come across like they are beeter than anybody else. It is an arrogance which will not be tolerated.

    Again this is my problem with Christians. They seek to make you believe that what they say is gospel and that there can be no other way. I would like you to give credence to the very words of Christ which recognised that there is more than one way, “He who is not against me, is for me”.

    Don’t come back with that long dose of emptiness that looks scholarly but really ain’t saying a pang. I don’t need a course in logic from you. It seems like you just come out of school. Well let me tell you, it is like driving… you know what they say, when you get your license you now have to learn how to drive. i therefore give you some time to digest, research and rationalise what you have learned.

    You now have to learn how to work with the prose they teach you to recite. This is about practical application. If your grund norm starts out with belief, how can it end up as truth? Give me a break… and if you telling me that it is absolute truth, well then you know what no man has ever known. If you say that you believe it as the truth, then I cannot quarrel with that, but don’t insult my intelligence.

  45. David Avatar
    David

    @ROK

    Are you saying that the Bible is not a credible document?

  46. J Avatar
    J

    Dear Bush Tea::

    What!!! Are you ashamed of being a woman now? … (I was taught and I have taught my children never to be ashamed unless responsible for wrong doing. So NO I AM NOT ASHAMED, since I have done nothing wrong)

    What IDEAS what??? BU is a forum to exchange information and feelings…. and emotions. (Your view, not mine)

  47. Carlos Avatar
    Carlos

    David, don’t worry with ROK!

    “But if anyone is IGNORANT, let him be IGNORANT” (1 Cor. 14:38) emphasis added.

    So be it!!

  48. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    David

    How did you come to that conclusion? There has to be a difference between creedibility and absolute truth. The meaning of the words alone. What makes the Bible credible is that it has been poured over by academics. Note my comment in an early post; even the academics agree to disagree.

    My problem is when you are going to take this, given the challenges with establishing truth at critical junctures and then hold it up as the absolute truth.

    Not only that, when you hold it up and mock others and insult their intelligence, telling them that they are lost sheep, etc. What Christains have been guilty of in the past is what they charge was inflicted on them; persecution.

    In their quest to establish the Bible as the only truth, Christianity has been responsible for the destruction of volumes of history and knowledge, calling it the work of the devil. How ignorant can one get? The world is a lot more backward today because of this un-called for destruction of literature, study, research and even other accounts that could either have refuted or verified what is in the Bible. We were thrown into the dark ages by this kind of thinking.

    Now they want to obliterate all the homosexuals, which would only send the homosexuals further into the closet and we trying to pull them out in for the sake of honesty and even to save some lives. In a lot of ways, Christainity is not about Christ but about vain attempts to make everybody believe the same thing that Christians believe. barbados is supposedly a Christian society but look and see how we deal with people and tell me it is not harsh.

    I want here to establish a distance between the Bible and those who claim it and try to interpret it to their own narrow view. To be critical of the Christian MO is not to be critical of the works called the Bible. They abuse the Bible and you have to wonder about the church here, which I pointed out earlier came under the heaviest fire from Christ himself.

    Heathens he called them because they strayed from the scriptures and became political for their own ends.

    Hypocrites because they are perpetrating untruths to be truths and do not practice the way of “God”.

    Thieves because they extort money in His name when all along their agenda is personal and subjective and nothing to do with being righteous.

    This is not about the Bible David, but about those who would want us to believe that they are more than anybdy else so that they retain power over men.

    Can’t deal with that. Anybody that scorns another for being a sinner is himself a sinner. Hope you understand. Please separate the practice of Christianity from the book; two different things. A hammer in the hands of a murderer is no longer a tool, but a weapon. Christianity (the church) uses the bible as a weapon and not a tool and its followers fall into the same trap.

    Finally, let me show you the damned arrogance and selfishness of Christianity. Imagine that a small Church or set of members of a Church, calling themselves Christian, would come and set up a PA system and blast their preaching in front of your house and don’t stop until 9 p.m.

    Imagine also that you have a child, still in primary school and in order to stop that child from falling asleep in class, you get it to bed normally at 7 p.m. Along comes this group and set up in front of your house for the whole week blasting and your child, although you still send it to bed at 7, is still awake at 9:30 p.m. What really is that?

    If you speak to them they tell you they doing God’s work and I would always ask them if God sent them to keep my child awake until 9:30 p.m. every night of the week, so that it could fall sleep in class on the desk the next day. Of course, they would turn their backs and start singing harder. That is Christian for you.

    You know David, that Barbadian Society is a harsh one and so to demonstrate the amount of respect I have for the Bible, I quote it, “Ye shall know them by their fruit”. This harsh Barbadian society is certainly not Christian fruit, I don’t care how much they profess because professing is as far as it goes.

  49. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    Carlos,

    This is typical Christian parading and pompasetting. Your Quote. All of it:

    David, don’t worry with ROK!

    “But if anyone is IGNORANT, let him be IGNORANT” (1 Cor. 14:38) emphasis added.

    So be it!!

    So Typical. Let him take his own words and put them in his pipe and smoke it. “For it is better to be ignorant and know you are ignorant than to be ignorant and don’t know you are.”

    Wha I could pompasette too!

  50. David Avatar
    David

    @ROK

    We get your clarification. So you are saying that the issue of homosexuality as narrated in the bible is not an absolute (parsing here). Lets accept that and move on.

    We live in a society which has been socialized away from homosexuality and we have constructed a moral code as a result.

    The point which BU has been wanting to make clear is where do we go from here. This discussion will service at the next election and also when as a country we are pressured to embrace our international obligations derived from being a signatory to the International Covenant on Civil & Political Rights.

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