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Opinion: It is vital to ensure that the political class fulfils its obligations towards the poorest in society – ft.com
Grenfell Tower: tenants’ concerns can no longer be ignored
Social landlords should make fire audits and inspections public

The BU household was touched by the tragedy that unfolded last week at the Grenfell Tower in the UK. To be expected there has been a loud public outcry questioning what fueled the disaster.

The concern the tragic event raises for BU is how do we, the PEOPLE, hold officials accountable when they ignore our concerns and it results in loss of life and damage to property.  From all reports tenants, for years, reported safety concerns about the building and there is the report that inadequate materials were used to maintain the building that housed low income minorities.  The UK government must be congratulated for ordering an inspection of all housing units in the country to avoid a similar occurrence at Grenfell Tower.

Barbadians have been quick to parallel the tragedy at Grenfell with the possibilities of planting a 15-storey structure. Let Grenfell be an opportunity to learn from mistakes made by others. Let us avoid searching for shortcuts to fast track projects because it is deemed to be  the politically expedient decision.

The voice of the people is the voice of God.

Lifes matter!

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69 responses to “Grenfell Tragedy | When the Cry of the People is Ignored by Officialdom”

  1. Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger Avatar
    Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-missing-victims-58-presumed-dead-latest-updates-names-stories-a7795391.html

    Social media and those publishing houses not government controlled will be the only way for family and friends to get an accurate body count.

    They have started updating the names of the missing.

  2. 45govt Avatar
    45govt

    The denizens of the tower block were no more ‘citizens’ than the rats in the sewers. They were non British, non contributory, parasitic foreigners who never wanted a light shined on their doings, hence no sprinklers, and now they demand the British people enrich them. Better send the remainder home.

  3. Vincent Haynes Avatar
    Vincent Haynes

    • Material ruled unsafe for tall buildings
    • Disaster deaths expected to exceed 50
    • Criminal inquiry launched amid anger
    US banned cladding that was used on Grenfell Tower
    The death toll from the London tower inferno was last night expected to pass 50 as it emerged that the United States had banned the type of cladding that allegedly encased the 24-storey block.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk
    http://thetim.es/2rmjQbg

  4. Vincent Haynes Avatar
    Vincent Haynes

    http://dailym.ai/2si40zJ

    Around 30,000 buildings around the UK are wrapped in ‘killer cladding’

  5. Vincent Haynes Avatar
    Vincent Haynes

    The sprawling abandoned mansions on the doorstep of Grenfell Tower inferno
    dailymail.co.uk
    http://dailym.ai/2tbKDs6

  6. Vincent Haynes Avatar
    Vincent Haynes

    https://www.facebook.com/timesandsundaytimes/videos/1693989730630302/

  7. Hal Austin Avatar
    Hal Austin

    Public inquiry, not criminal inquiry. Because the US had banned the cladding does not mean anything in itself. The point is was the cladding safe, did it protect the occupants of the home|? Quite clearly it did not. We cannot always look to the US for a measure of standards. We must learn to think for ourselves.

  8. David Avatar
    David

    @Hal

    If officialdom ignored experts why not hold them criminally negligent?

    https://grassyknoll.net/experts-warned-government-against-cladding-material-used-on-grenfell/

  9. Vincent Haynes Avatar
    Vincent Haynes

    The report will not be made public until an inquest is complete
    Grenfell Tower report may not be made public for YEARS
    dailymail.co.uk
    http://dailym.ai/2sKwEMG

  10. David Avatar
    David

    There you go Vincent.

    Image may contain: 13 people, people smiling

  11. Hal Austin Avatar
    Hal Austin

    David,
    That is another issue. A public inquiry has been announced, not a criminal one. Stick to the facts, not wishful thinking. By the way, I think David Lammy is right to call for corporate manslaughter charges, but this must not only be targeted at the supply companies, but also at the politicians who made the crucial decisions and the workmen who installed the claddings.
    But an inquiry must not get in the way of criminal prosecutions, if any.

  12. lawson Avatar
    lawson

    One thing that bothered me over my years in the fire service, was that there was not very much education for people when they are exposed to a new way of life. The operation and safeties of equipment and things that a lot of us see as common sense are alien to some…not operating a generator in a attached garage, by-passing with pennies in a fuse slot, turning off stove elements in a power outage etc things common to us but foreign to others. Just changing materials will not stop these tragedies unless coupled with education. When the investigation is completed and we know the real cause I hope they do not just focus on that as a fix.

  13. David Avatar
    David

    @Hal

    What ‘another’ issue what. The cry of the people is for heads to roll. What facts what! People have died because of negligence by the authorities. Buildings of similar construction appear to be scattered across the UK. Heads should be cut off and we should insist on an EIA in Barbados for all major constructions as directed in the draft physical development plan. We live in enlightened times.

    What facts what!

  14. David Avatar
    David

    @lawson

    Why are you trying to obfuscate?

    Obviously education is important in this case for the tenants but it does not remove the responsibility from the authorities that serve as a second and third line of defense to protect the public.

  15. sidboyce Avatar
    sidboyce

    @Vincent Haynes
    Agree with your list.
    The cladding is also banned in Germany.

    Here in the UK we always go for the cheapest and most expedient solution.

    Remember BSE (Mad Cow Disease) was the result of the government’s OK of a request by the feed manufacturers to lower the heat treatment of animal waste by 2 degrees in order to boost profits. No one I spoke to even knew or suspected that animal remains was being fed to animals.

    Every disaster, misdeed and mishap is met by ritual incantations of “inquiry”, “investigation”, “lessons will be learned”.
    You could record the platitudes and play them back on every sad occasion, current, past and future.
    There have been many and I am sure we are not done yet.

  16. Hal Austin Avatar
    Hal Austin

    David,
    I know simple facts can sometimes be ‘challenging’ for you. The fact is that the government has announced a public inquiry, not a criminal inquiry. The idea of a public inquiry is to apportion responsibility and learn lessons. It is not the hocus pocus of a judicial management review, or whatever the nonsense is called.
    There are about 4000 similar buildings in the UK . and they are all being looked at by the various local authorities, the primary regulatory bodies.
    Barbaric nonsense about head should be cut off may go down well among your fans, but not with reasonable people who want justice for the victims and new regulations, not just revenge. That is why we want people with level heads making decisions, and not hot heads.
    How Barbados regulates its high rise buildings is a matter for politicians, regulators and voters.
    Tell Bajan building and planning regulators to start by materials we use, like cement, and to enforce their own regulations.

  17. Money Brain Avatar
    Money Brain

    Who tested and approved this cladding for use in the UK?

    Who in Government inspected the tests for flammability?

    That fire made the movie “Towering Inferno” look somewhat inferior, it had me mesmerised and glued to the screen, seldom has real life / DEATH exceeded Hollywood on this scale.

    This whole sordid mess is totally incredible and heads must roll.

    Who believes that a refrigerator exploded? How was that tested?

    Surely the UK has an organisation like Underwriters Labs?

  18. David Avatar
    David

    @Hal

    And what BU is urging is for there to be a criminal inquiry because there is sufficient negligence to go around. How a stove fire can cause this kind of damage. Inability to fight the fire from the stair well. Aluminum materials that acted as acelarants.

    Etc

    Criminal inquiry remains our call.

    >

  19. Hal Austin Avatar
    Hal Austin

    Oh David, get real. No one is blaming an exploding stove. A fridge is being blamed. You cannot even call for a criminal inquiry in your own home, if you are like me. The children will just ignore you.
    I suggest that you stick to putting Barbados right and leave the UK and London to sort out their own problems. Barbados cannot even control the traffic on its streets or the meat in its shops. Ore are we punching above our weight?

  20. David Avatar
    David

    @Hal

    Will write this slowly for you so that comprehension is not the issue. Using the stove wass an example to make the point that a fire in an apartment should not burn down a whole 20+ story building. Does not matter if it was a stove, fried or faulty fuse box.

  21. Well Well @ Consequences Observing Blogger Avatar
    Well Well @ Consequences Observing Blogger

    I have experienced fires in NYC, of all places and except for the twin towers, the fire was ALWAYS contained on the floor where it started.

    The guillotine should be brought back for this very criminal chain of events.

  22. lawson Avatar
    lawson

    if it was a fridge it would have to engulf the apt because a living room and bed room are usually at the windows , so there would have been a time delay before any outside cladding could have ignited, the inspectors will be looking into if the fire systems were operating or maintained . In my my experience like the boy crying wolf, in a high rise when the alarm goes off most people at night roll over.
    David dont pick a fight on this subject , I have seen the smartest people do the dumbest things I have held people dying in my arms well before their time through stupidity or negligence. Do not mix politics , racial bias or social standing till the investigation has come to fruition, which cannot possibly been done yet.

  23. Pachamama Avatar
    Pachamama

    David

    What patience do you exhibit with the biggest idiot here.

    If you are to be only concerned with putting Barbados ‘right’. Maybe that asshole could tell us which country in the world is ‘right’.

    And even if Barbados were right, it would be militarily invaded by the British or the Americans.

    The truth is that no country or state in this world could ever be right.

    In any event, and overwhelmingly, the central cultural tendencies in Barbados are about English-ness, American-ness.

    In other words, there are no cultural dominance of Barbadian-ness anywhere in Barbados.

    And even if that were true, are you not to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.

    Surely, it must be time for somebody to tell this ugly man to f-off.

  24. David Avatar
    David

    Who is picking a fight? Like Sid Boyce opined so many public inquiries have led to nowhere. What the people must do is as they are doing, be uncompromising in the call for justice. Hold the political class accountable. Heads should roll. What pubic inquiry what! There is negligence plastered all over this tragedy.

  25. Hal Austin Avatar
    Hal Austin

    DAVID,
    WE WENT FROM THE SPECIFIC TO THE GENERAL WITHOUT ANY SIGNALLING, IE BY STATING IT WAS AN EXAMPLE. I know I am a bit slow, but it is not for you to point it out.
    We all know that public inquiries, Royal Commissions etc can go on for ages. It is an administrative way of pushing the problem in to the long grass.
    You seem too dumb to realise that if you are calling for justice, you cannot at the same time claim heads should roll. ‘Cutting off heads’ must be an outcome, not a precondition. Reasoning can at times be challenging, but if you work at it it will eventually make sense.

  26. Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger Avatar
    Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger

    Lawson….public inquiries never come to fruition as that Cow May is well aware.

    But coroner’s inquests do…..and in within aa year.

    As the cow is also well aware.

  27. Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger Avatar
    Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger

    But coroner’s inquests do…..and within aa year.

    That is why she will never want one….and the people of London know this.

  28. Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger Avatar
    Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger

    For those like Hal who do not understand the difference between the two.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/what-is-an-inquest-different-public-inquiry-grenfell-tower-victims-a7794661.html

    “What is an inquest, how is it different to a public inquiry, and why are Grenfell fire victims calling for one?

    Opinion is divided over which would be best for victims and their relatives

    Chris Baynes 4 hours ago27 comments

    Theresa May’s announcement of a judge-led public inquiry into the Grenfell Tower disaster has been questioned by some residents and lawyers.

    Among them was Sophie Khan, a solicitor who represented victims of a deadly 2009 tower block fire in Camberwell.

    She said victims families’ should instead demand an inquest to avoid a “whitewash”.

    Thousands of people have also signed petitions calling for an inquest instead of an inquiry. But other lawyers have argued an inquiry would be more likely to satisfy demand for a wide-ranging investigation into the deadly blaze.

    READ MORE
    Thousands demand inquest instead of public inquiry into Grenfell fire
    Here, we look at the difference between the two:

    What is an inquest?

    An inquest is an independent investigation carried out by a coroner in the event of an unnatural death to establish how, where, and why a person or people died. They are held in public and culminate in the coroner recording a conclusion about the cause of death, such as unlawful killing or accident.

    They are not about apportioning blame: inquests establish what happened and who should be held responsible remains a matter for criminal and civil courts.

    The scope of most inquests is limited, but they can have a wider frame of reference if Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights is invoked. Article 2 inquests are held when public bodies or “their agents” have “failed to protect the deceased against a human threat or other risk”.

    An inquest into the deaths in the Grenfell Tower fire would likely fall into this category. The coroner would be almost certain to summon a jury to return a verdict due to the involvement of public bodies.

    Grenfell Tower Fire: Theresa May leaves church to chants of ‘coward’
    How is it different to an inquiry?

    A public inquiry is a legal investigation conducted by a judge appointed by the Government. The terms of reference of an inquiry are also set by the Government, although individuals and organisations involved are usually consulted.

    Inquiries are typically broader in scope than inquests and can therefore take much longer to complete. They often take years to grind to a conclusion, with costs stretching into the millions.

    Victims and other interested groups are classed as “core participants” in inquiries and can be represented by lawyers who can ask questions of witnesses.

    In inquests, victims families’ can ask questions themselves or through lawyers, but witnesses are not required to answer any questions that may incriminate them.

    Unlike an inquest, an inquiry can apportion blame.

    Why are people calling for an inquest?

    Opponents of a public inquiry into the Grenfell Tower disaster fear Ms May’s decision to call a public inquiry was a deliberate attempt to avoid close scrutiny of the various public bodies involved in the running and maintenance of Grenfell Tower.”

  29. Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger Avatar
    Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger

    Ministers are always the ones to delay justice.

    “Why are people calling for an inquest?

    Opponents of a public inquiry into the Grenfell Tower disaster fear Ms May’s decision to call a public inquiry was a deliberate attempt to avoid close scrutiny of the various public bodies involved in the running and maintenance of Grenfell Tower.

    Ms Khan, speaking on the BBC’s Newsnight, suggested an inquest would mean the Government “lose control” of proceedings as they cannot appoint a chair or define the terms of the investigation.

    She said: “The juries will come out with narrative verdicts which may be very difficult for the Government to hear

    ..After an 11-week inquest in 2013 into the deaths of six people killed at Lakanal House in Camberwell, coroner Frances Kirkham made a series of recommendations about building regulations and clarification of the “stay put” fire policy – although they have yet to be acted upon by ministers.

    In that inquest, the jury’s narrative verdict pointed to the culpability of Southwark Council and exposed the role of external cladding in the rapid spread of fire…….”

  30. Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger Avatar
    Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger

    Just in case Hal wants to make up his own version to try to fool the blog.

  31. lawson Avatar
    lawson

    WW I am not talking about a public inquiry I am talking about the fire dept investigation done by career professionals who will come to a conclusion in a reasonable amount of time. That will give cause .travel of fire, what was operating and what wasnt etc. An inquiry has everyone running for lawyers in case they can have fault pinned on them whether it is response times, decisions made on scene by firefighters , the cladding installers the engineers, the maintenance firm, the elevator company, the politicians and on and on every one not wanting to own it as law suits will come and they cast a wide net,

  32. Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger Avatar
    Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger

    Lawson…., fire officials and investigators have to hand their  final reports  in to police investigators,  inquiries and inquests to help determine cause and culpability. 

    As you can see from the below….the people of London have seen that movie before, just recently in 2013…..so excuse them if they  dont trust the government and will give side glances to fire investigstors……they are better off treating the fire as a homicide and investigate it as such.

    .”After an 11-week inquest in 2013 into the deaths of six people killed at Lakanal House in Camberwell, coroner Frances Kirkham made a series of recommendations about building regulations and clarification of the “stay put” fire policy – although they have yet to be acted upon by ministers.

    In that inquest, the jury’s narrative verdict pointed to the culpability of Southwark Council and exposed the role of external cladding in the rapid spread of fire…….”

  33. Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger Avatar
    Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger

    Once bitten and all of that……

  34. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ David
    Bushie is disappointed that you would engage Hal like this.

    Even if you do not buy the Bushman’s assessment of the chap, it must be clear that someone who spent 40 years in England and feels qualified to comment of Bajan affairs as a ‘native son’ …and who would now suggest that YOU butt out of matters in England – is seriously warped.
    Recall that he sees no fault in Greenverbs…. ?

    Hal should generally be ignored …except for the occasional question that he is wont to pose…

  35. Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger Avatar
    Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger

    You will note that the bottom feeding lawyers who most bajan lawyers model their evil actions against their clients from…..are all calling for an inquiry because it means over a decade of fees off the dead, crisp bodies of victims and charred bodies of those who survive…

    …. these parasitic lawyers can then tie up the inquiry with their argumentative bullshit and get wealthy doing so while the government would be happy to keep paying to lead the inquiry to nowhere and no conclusion with taxpayer’s dollars.

  36. Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger Avatar
    Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger

    I repeat for clarification..it is a criminal homicide and should be treated as such..

    ….people already died horrible in a fire from that same bag of tricks from ministers, councils and contractors, inferior quality cladding….this is nothing less than murder.

    .”After an 11-week inquest in 2013 into the deaths of six people killed at Lakanal House in Camberwell, coroner Frances Kirkham made a series of recommendations about building regulations and clarification of the “stay put” fire policy – although they have yet to be acted upon by ministers.

    In that inquest, the jury’s narrative verdict pointed to the culpability of Southwark Council and exposed the role of external cladding in the rapid spread of fire…….”

  37. de pedantic Dribbler Avatar
    de pedantic Dribbler

    @David, you stated that “Barbadians have been quick to parallel the tragedy at Grenfell with the possibilities of planting a 15-storey structure. Let Grenfell be an opportunity to learn from mistake made by others. Let us avoid searching for shortcuts to fast track projects because it is deemed to be the politically expedient decision.”

    I agree that we can use the tragedy in London to inform our practices and procedures but beyond that as I mentioned to Vincent previously the Hyatt 15-storey project and the Grenfel tragedy are otherwise not practical comparisons.

    The former will be a modern structure under the management/ownership of a large multinational company which CANNOT undertake that project unless certain basic structural standards related to fire and other safety standards are achieved.

    Grenfel was an accident primed to happen for years, according to various and many critics, residents etc.

    There can be no comparison in that regard to the modern edifice as planned.

    Futhermore in UK, US etc billions of $$ are spent in residential housing. The monies are badly misspent due to corruption, cronyism, red-tape and bungling.

    It is interesting to hear @Hal and to some degree @Lawson advise that the cladding met regulatory standards even as we hear that similar materials were banned in US and Germany.

    What exactly does it mean to meet regulatory standards in some bland technical way when we also read other experts say that similar fires in Australia were attributable to problems with the cladding!

    What does it mean to meet regulatory standards if you supposedly have fire protective apt doors to withstand a fire for 30 minutes, and your other standards dictate that you seek safety on-site (as Grenfell, apparently was) but then a new dimension called cladding is added which completely contravenes those apparent safeguards and NO relevant other preventative measures are added re that cladding.

    There have been fires before. They have been inquests, public enquirers and other legal processes before. We are still seeking new answers to old problems…it seems!

    So there will be another investigation to salve our collective angst and to provide another round of regulatory inertia and corporate greed until the next tragedy and the next investigation.

    Just this week the President of the US recommended a lady whose claim to fame is planning his son’s marriage event and golf events. She will be a senior regional official overseeing $$millions for government housing projects…just like Grenfell…

    And just like Grenfell, cronyism, often inept, self-centered bureaucrats colluding with executives to play God with citizens’s lives.

    We know what’s wrong we just can’t be righteous and work towards fixing the problems.

    Lives do matter!

  38. Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger Avatar
    Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger

    As we have been saying, coldblooded murder, how can anyone not call for the ministers etc to bd guillotined…straight from the Chancellor.

    Ha, Ha Austin….sit down

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/grenfell-tower-flammable-cladding-banned-in-uk-philip-hammond-germany-us-a7795696.html

    “Chancellor Philip Hammond has said that the controversial non-fire resistant cladding fitted to Grenfell Tower was in fact banned in the UK.

    In the days after the tragedy occurred, attention has focused on the the panels that were fitted to the outside of the tower in 2011, that have been labelled flammable by German and US authorities and banned from use on high rise buildings.

    Asked about this by the BBC’s Andrew Marr, The Chancellor said: “My understanding is the cladding in question, this flammable cladding which is banned in Europe and the US, is also banned here.

    “So there are two separate questions. One, are our regulations correct, do they permit the right kind of materials and ban the wrong kind of materials? The second question is were they correctly complied with?

    “That will be a subject that the inquiry will look at. It will also be a subject that the criminal investigation will be looking at.”

  39. Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger Avatar
    Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger

    These highrises have to be monitored and regulated worldwide…

    The DLPBLP governments and greedy business people are notorious for short cutting and illegal activities while ignoring the welfare and wellbeing of natives and refusing to adequately maintain anything.

    Enough said.

  40. David Avatar
    David

    @Dee Word

    If your comment is to ring true then one must ask why has the Whyndam people not demanded an EIA.

    >

  41. Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger Avatar
    Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger

    In case Hammond missed it, most of Europe is still one block and includes UK, they still have not brexited it….so he cant backtrack from that comment later.

    “Asked about this by the BBC’s Andrew Marr, The Chancellor said: “My understanding is the cladding in question, this flammable cladding which is banned in Europe and the US, is also banned here.”

  42. Alvin Cummins Avatar
    Alvin Cummins

    David:
    Your post:”…we should insist on an EIA in Barbados for all major constructions as directed in the draft physical development plan”
    does not present a solution. After construction and occupation, constant vigilance is required. In my apartment building (17 occupied floors) there are monthly fire alarm tests. Constant inspection by fire officials, and constant separation of garbage. separation of garbage: compostable material in one bin, combustible material (plastics, paper etc) in another, and everything in metal heavy) bins with metal covers. This is how such conflagrations are preventable. Of course the right material must be mandatory in the construction of the building. Most importantly the use of a proper sprinkler system must be mandatory in buildings those heights cannot be covered by the limitations of the fire department.

  43. Wily Coyote Avatar
    Wily Coyote

    Bloggers are getting NASTY with their comments, lets keep some level of decorum and concentrate on the issue.

    This was a tragedy which in my opinion could have been foreseen and prevented. Dubai has experienced three(3) of these type of fires in the last 10 years resulting from similar cladding. There is numerous examples worldwide for the banning of this type of cladding because of the fire safety issues.

    The question is why England is/has allowed this type of material to be used, or was it installed illegally.

  44. David Avatar
    David

    There is an article in today’s Sunday Sun with the title ‘Local high-rises safe’ according to minister of housing Kellman. Note we are talking three floors.

    #jokeoftheday

  45. Hants Avatar
    Hants

    @ David,

    The Grotto is four floors. lol.

    BARBADOS’ FOUR HIGH-RISE housing projects are extremely safe and built with the highest of security standards in place, says Minister of Housing and Lands Denis Kellman.

    See more at: http://www.nationnews.com/nationnews/news/97868/local-rises-safe#sthash.e9WGQ8Xi.dpuf

    The Minister should offer his expertise on fire safety to the Brits and invite them to study the high rise buildings in Barbados.

  46. Money Brain Avatar
    Money Brain

    He meant the High DLP LIES are building!lol

  47. David Avatar
    David

    @Hants

    Didn’t include the ground floor.

  48. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ Alvin Cummins June 18, 2017 at 9:46 AM
    “David:
    Your post:”…we should insist on an EIA in Barbados for all major constructions as directed in the draft physical development plan”
    does not present a solution. After construction and occupation, constant vigilance is required. In my apartment building (17 occupied floors) there are monthly fire alarm tests. Constant inspection by fire officials, and constant separation of garbage. separation of garbage: compostable material in one bin, combustible material (plastics, paper etc) in another, and everything in metal heavy) bins with metal covers.”

    Why are you allowing such invaluable knowledge and vast hands-on experience to go to ‘waste’?

    Alvin, Barbados is in dire need of you talents, so why not leave cold Canada and resettle in Barbados to share your knowledge before you meet the coming grim reaper?

    Can you appreciate how much you could do for the Bajan environment, educate the people, and save the economy through your proposals to avoid the IMF and keep the DLP in power for the next 9 months or until you die, whichever comes first?

  49. Vincent Haynes Avatar
    Vincent Haynes

    https://www.facebook.com/MajidFreeman650/videos/790183781141008/

  50. Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger Avatar
    Well Well & Consequences Observing Blogger

    Alvin will try to turn everyone into DLP yardfowls with the inability to think for themselves.

    I know no one is taking Kellman’s nonsense seriously.

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