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Caleb Orozco
Caleb Orozco

โ€œIf public opinion were to be decisive, there would be no need for constitutional adjudicationโ€ฆโ€ per Chaskalson P -South African Constitutional Court [1995}

It should not be thought that the recent and eventually successful claim of Mr Caleb Orozco in the Belize High Court that I commented on last week went unchallenged by anyone, even though we have learnt subsequently that the state itself will not be appealing the decision and, I suppose, will be amending the law as recommended by Benjamin CJ in his judgment to the effect that โ€œThis section shall not apply to consensual sexual acts between adults in privateโ€.

Readers will be aware that the debate over removal or retention of the โ€œbuggery lawsโ€ as they have come to be known, has seen conflicting stances taken by those who consider the act, especially between two males, to be a nearly unpardonable sin by reference to sundry Biblical injunctions and by those who view the expression of love between any two adults in private to be no business of the state and even less so that of the criminal law. Indeed, since the law as drafted also criminalizes acts of buggery even between consenting spouses in the privacy of their marital bed, the legislative overreach should be clear to the most rabid advocate for the retention of the legislation.

It should be no cause for surprise then that three of the interested parties opposed to Mr Orozcoโ€™s claim were the Roman Catholic Church in Belize, the Belize Church of England Corporate Body and the Belize Evangelical Association.

Whatever might have been the authority attached to the views of these bodies had the matter been adjudicated in the Biblical realm, his Lordship was careful to emphasize that โ€œthe issue before the Court must be determined by reference to the fundamental rights provisions of the Constitution and not b[y] recourse to public viewsโ€. In this regard, he adopted the reasoning of Lord Bingham in Reyes v The Queen in 2002 where he had asserted, โ€œIn carrying out its task of constitutional interpretation the court is not concerned to evaluate and give effect to public opinionโ€ฆโ€

And while, of course, the respect and influence of the churches in Belize were not to be ignored, it bore reminder that Belize was a secular state with a written Constitution that provided for the protection of the fundamental rights and freedoms.

Benjamin CJ dealt also with the preambled provision, similarly to be found in the Barbados Constitution, that our nation is โ€œfounded upon principles that acknowledge the supremacy of Godโ€ฆโ€ He considered it trite that although Belize was a predominantly Christian nation, the reference to God and the Creator went beyond Christianity, given the protection accorded to the individual freedom of conscience that was inclusive of freedom of thought and religion. In his view, the reference to God and the Creator did not serve to import religious principles into the interpretation of the Constitution. It should be noted, as an aside, that the local Constitution makes no express reference to the Creator as does the Belize provision that stipulates โ€œthe equal and inalienable rights which all members of the human family are endowed by their Creatorโ€ฆโ€ He concluded that the reference to the Supremacy of God did not import any specific religious perspective but merely acknowledged the historical origin of the fundamental rights in natural law.

A similar issue had been in previous dispute in Canada where the Charter of Rights and Freedoms makes an identical reference. There, in 1991, Muldoon J affirmed that Canada remained a secular state notwithstanding the reference . On his interpretation, โ€œIt does not make Canada a theocracy โ€ฆit prevents the Canadian state from becoming officially atheisticโ€ฆโ€

The chief resistance by the churches to the claim of unconstitutionality of the provision was based on the express limitation of the right on the basis of public morality. In this context, the Anglican Bishop purported that the provision, even though infrequently enforced, was โ€œintegral to the protection of the common good and public morality to the extent that its repeal would be inimical to the preservation of society as ordained by the Creatorโ€. While this argument would carry some force were the law to be rigorously enforced, the seemingly plain disinterest of the state where the act is consensually effected in private does not support a claim that the state has any interest here whatsoever in preserving society according to the ordinance of the Creator, the letter of the law or otherwise. His Lordship the Anglican Bishop went further, asserting that the practice of homosexual acts is inconsistent with the witness of sacred scripture and against the natural order of creation.

The President of the Association of Evangelical Churches insisted that the section existed for sundry reasons of safety public order, public morality and public health. As his brother, the Lord Bishop was before him, he is unwittingly of the belief that the mere passage of a law ensures compliance with these dictates. As most contemporary compliance metrics are structured however, the true test of the function of a law is its effectiveness, a phenomenon that fails to pass muster in light of the notorious absence of any enforcement of the provision at all.

The Roman Catholic Bishop in his submission saw the principal function of the law as preserving a moral climate for members of the society to prosper and avoid vice and he suggested further in his affidavit that โ€œan alien world view was being foisted on the people of Belize.โ€

Benjamin CJ did not accept these views although he conceded that they were โ€œrepresentative of those of the majority of the Christian community and perhaps of the population of Belize.โ€œ However, he noted that the Court could not act on act upon the prevailing majority view or what is popularly accepted as moral. For him, there must be demonstrated, but it had not been done, that some harm would be caused should the proscribed conduct in the provision be rendered unregulated.

Again, the ineffectiveness of the legislation through an absence of enforcement forecloses any such likelihood, for if there is no visible harm in the existing context, the removal of the provision could scarcely be expected negatively to alter circumstances.

As I hinted last week, the local position, for a number of reasons, is not in pari materia with the Belize situation. Any repeal of section 9 of the Sexual Offences Act must therefore be effected by a parliamentary act (!)and it would take quite a courageous administration to effect such a reform.


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162 responses to “The Jefferson Cumberbatch Column – Enforcing the Rule of Law (ii)”


  1. Bushie sees that Jeff has found some more time to elucidate yet another week on the legal virtues of bulling….. while presumably awaiting the needed retainer to shed some light on DEED’s legal quagmire….

    Oh well!!! such is life…

    Chad9999 is right.
    Just because most of us CANNOT SEE how the formal legalisation of homosexuality by a society is dangerous to that society ..does not mean that it is not DEADLY dangerous.
    Right now, we are facing the inexplicable situation where despite billions spent on education, we find ourselves saddled with a set of complete JAs in our parliament;
    …we find ourselves selling our national silver to buy short-term glitter …like parros
    …we find ourselves literal slaves …in plantations run and managed by foreigners…

    …AND NOT ONE O’ WUNNA CAN UNDERSTAND WHY….. (although Bushie keeps repeating…)
    ….but wunna now looking to do MORE shiite that wunna ALSO DO NOT UNDERSTAND…??!!
    Steupssss…
    Wunna ass playing with brimstone and fire hear…??!!!

    Every society will have its sexual deviants, just like it will have its physically challenged, and it will have it’s dishonest… when HOWEVER, that society formally ADOPTS such deviance as its NORMAL, there are STRONG spiritual implications in store.

    Right now, WE have adopted STEALING and BRIBERY as normal, with GOVERNMENT officials and even ordinary citizens routinely thieving, diverting and back-handing….. and we are paying a HUGE price for THAT shiite….
    Wunna guh long wid the bulling thing and see….

  2. Caswell Franklyn Avatar
    Caswell Franklyn

    Pacha

    If someone is bitten on their private parts, it is not automatically criminal. It could be a consensual nibble where the nibbler got carried away in the throes of passion and could not help him or herself. In your case Pacha, you have nothing to fear. Just remove your dentures before the act.

    I hope I was able to help you.

    Sent from my iPad

  3. Jeff Cumberbatch Avatar
    Jeff Cumberbatch

    “Bushie sees that Jeff has found some more time to elucidate yet another week on the legal virtues of bullingโ€ฆ.. while presumably awaiting the needed retainer to shed some light on DEEDโ€™s legal quagmireโ€ฆ.

    Not legal virtues, Bushie, but the legal hypocrisy of legislating against something, refusing to enforce it and then pharisaically claiming compliance with the levitical and Pauline precepts.

    Incidentally, scratch that retainer. I am no longer interested!


  4. @ Caswell

    You’re killing us with laughter. LOL


  5. @balance. With respect, that is paedophilia (which is a crime) and does not by any means involve the act of buggery, although it might, when it becomes rape. Ask Jeff if I am wrong. AND it is criminal in all those countries whose tax revenue supports us. So it really is not the same thing at all. We have a duty to protect minors, but that duty does not and cannot extend to consenting adults in privacy. Even if a minor male or female invites sexual contact from an adult, the adult is still guilty of a criminal act, not the minor. I would also point out that, apart from that (and some other) Christian organization of such repute and authority called the Roman Catholic Church, the incidents of sexual offences by men against girls are far higher than those of men against boys. As for, โ€œWe must never bow to the pressure of distasteful foreign secularism,โ€ what you are saying is that it is okay to beg from them for their money and their tourists, but not okay to follow their code of human rights. I am sure that they will applaud our defence of our position and open their coffers to us even more as a reward. Really????!!!!!

    But I was startled to read in the UK press online within the last week that a 14 year old boy in ISIL territory had been executed, because he had been raped by one of ISILโ€™s top commanders, while the commander was merely sent to the front. Appears the fact that the boy had been raped made him (the boy) guilty of homosexual contact โ€“ so they bound him, threw him off the top of a high rise and then the audience that watched it were encouraged to stone his dead body. Made me sick. Poor little boy.

  6. Jeff Cumberbatch Avatar
    Jeff Cumberbatch

    Pacha- “Meaning the right, and we are talking in terms of western societies, to walk down Broad Street naked or attend Frank Collymore Hall without clothing. As right!”

    We have laws against this already, do we not? I That would be equivalent to claimiing a right to steal or to murder!


  7. Bushie

    That battle has been lost, long time

    There has long been a certain social acceptance

    We will soon have it at the centre of government.

    In any event, Barbados lacks the character to withstand local or international forces.

    We await your Divine Judgement!


  8. @ Jeff

    You have laws against bulling too

    But now we seek to legitimize it,

    Make it an established societal feature


  9. @Bush Tea wrote “Right now, we are facing the inexplicable situation where despite billions spent on education, we find ourselves saddled with a set of complete JAs in our parliament;
    โ€ฆwe find ourselves selling our national silver to buy short-term glitter โ€ฆlike parros
    โ€ฆwe find ourselves literal slaves โ€ฆin plantations run and managed by foreignersโ€ฆ”

    I put it to you that this is not inexplicable. It is, in fact, very easily explained; we have chosen to remain colonized. We have chosen to serve foreign interests, foreign masters, and foreign gods. The tourist industry it service to foreign masters. The offshore financial services industry is service to foreign masters.

    As Marley put it (quoting Garvey) “emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds.”

    Until we decide to diversify our economy by serving each other rather than foreign masters we will remain colonized and none of this will improve.


  10. @Peter

    So there are 3 options – bullet, struggle per intellectualization or just stop and let the cards fall where they may, between Doufuses or Troika cause David, that state where acuity takes template and converts it to pertinence, is a bridge too far

    Fodder for a circular debate? How does one emancipate the mind? Esoteric interventions will not do it. How many of us have listened to Bob Marley”s cry [Emancipation Song]and is none the wiser to do.


  11. @ Jeff

    ”Pacha, are you talking about a specific law, legislation in general or the concept of jurisprudence?”’

    We think law is very important, at all levels.

    But to use law to impose a minority position to challenge established norms is destructive of life itself and is wrong.

    To impose that position, as an organizing principle, going against an evolved tradition must be wrong and a sign that we are in trouble.

  12. Jeff Cumberbatch Avatar
    Jeff Cumberbatch

    Pacha, the point I made throughout today’s essay is that merely “{having” a law is not enough, Does it serve any effective purpose? Is our true position not that buggery is not really criminalized here?

  13. Jeff Cumberbatch Avatar
    Jeff Cumberbatch

    Pacha,

    THE CONSTITUTION
    1. This Constitution is the supreme law of Barbados and, subject to the provisions of this Constitution, if any other law is inconsistent with this Constitution, this Constitution shall prevail and the other law shall, to the extent of the inconsistency, be void.

    “But to use law to impose a minority position to challenge established norms is destructive of life itself and is wrong.

    To impose that position, as an organizing principle, going against an evolved tradition must be wrong and a sign that we are in trouble”.

    Does the Constitution not represent the democratic view, and therefore trump “established norms” and “evolved tradition” whatever these might be?


  14. @David wrote “there are 3 options โ€“ bullet, struggle per intellectualization or just stop and let the cards fall where they may”

    I don’t like bullets, and to just let the cards fall where they may is to admit defeat. I’m currently struggling to see if I can adapt the innovation & startup business technologies pioneered by silicon valley and put them to use in a different context; i.e. rather than using them to scale a single enterprise to earn billion$, deploy them to scale thousands of enterprises to earn hundreds of thousand$ each.

    This is because in order to earn billion$ one would have to serve foreign interests, while it is quite feasible to earn hundreds of thousand$ by serving your neighbors.


  15. @Pachamama, who wrote “But to use law to impose a minority position to challenge established norms is destructive of life itself and is wrong.”

    When the British Parliament passed The Slavery Abolition Act 1833 they were using “law to impose a minority position to challenge established norms;” likewise when President Lincoln issued his executive order that was the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863 he didn’t even consult his legislature to use “law to impose a minority position to challenge established norms.”

    Were both of these wrong in your view?


  16. What’s that Caswell said? The child abusers are all over our schools and when caught the authorities just transfer them? And yet you people believe that the children need to respect and obey all teachers without question???!!! What is there to respect in a system that operates in that way? You really think the young people are stupid! Me know how de yute get so even if you don’t.

    By the way, watched a documentary recently that suggests that in the “countries whose tax dollars support us” these child abusing teachers are for the most part also allowed to remain in the system. There is plenty to engage their attention but this rainbow agenda seems to be the primary focus.

    Why?

    PS. I believe that homosexuality may be genetic and therefore these people deserve consideration. How to do that is beyond me.


  17. “I put it to you that this is not inexplicable. It is, in fact, very easily explained; we have chosen to remain colonized.”

    and I am putting it to you that Barbados was not colonized and that is what makes it all the more inexplicable. Our compromising/mendicant attitudes perhaps garnered from the African genes with which we were saddled might have made us more susceptible to brainwashing.


  18. “Peter Lawrence Thompson August 21, 2016 at 2:58 PM #

    @Pachamama, who wrote โ€œBut to use law to impose a minority position to challenge established norms is destructive of life itself and is wrong.โ€

    When the British Parliament passed The Slavery Abolition Act 1833 they were using โ€œlaw to impose a minority position to challenge established norms;โ€ likewise when President Lincoln issued his executive order that was the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863 he didnโ€™t even consult his legislature to use โ€œlaw to impose a minority position to challenge established norms.โ€

    Were both of these wrong in your view?”

    Now English could be a funny language but so wondrous in that it opens man’s mind to creativity of thought and analysis. Oh the beauty of language as Mr Gladstone Holder would say.

    But suppose Peter , Pacha had written ” to use law to impose a minority position to challenge established norms which are destructive of life itself is wrong.โ€


  19. @ Bushie

    Although I totally disagree with you, you had me in stiches at 1:36 PM.

    I hope you in one ah dem homophobes dat dat does be doin more bullin dan anybody else!
    In the US they tend to be Republican congressmen.


  20. nobody is talking about Homosexuality as an antiquated abnormality any longer .it has become an accepted norm, deal with it and mostly for the right reasons barring intolerant dunderheads like professor brass bowl Bush Tea from shoving his delicacy of intolerance down peoples throat . In all my adult years i have never heard any homosexual group call for any form of inequality and injustice against people of race color or creed however those who always see a right to bear arms of inequality or injustice are the same ones whose rights and freedoms for many years were trampled upon


  21. Peter Lawrence Thompson

    To use of the minority/majority polemic to introduce the circumstances around chattel slavery as the first global institution that is was, is imprecise.

    Peoples of colour, within a global context, have always been the majority.

    The factoid that some Africa peoples were stolen from one place and illegal held in different places does not change the paradigm based exclusive on the existence of greater number of White people who controlled some lands.

    So should a majority of White people in England or France or elsewhere be considered a true majority in those circumstances, we say no.

    Further, in most places African slaves were indeed the overwhelming majorities. And if they could vote or had access to law we think they would share our view.


  22. “Old Baje August 21, 2016 at 3:22 PM #

    @ Bushie

    I hope you in one ah dem homophobes dat dat does be doin more bullin dan anybody else!
    In the US they tend to be Republican congressmen.”

    There we go again with this Republicanphobia. Have you ever heard about Barney Frank Old Baje or you too young. Well Mr Barney Frank was a Democratic Congressional representative from Massachusetts who married long-time partner Jim Ready, a carpenter and welder, on July 7, 2012. This was the first same-sex marriage of a U.S. Congressman.

  23. Well Well & Consequences Avatar
    Well Well & Consequences

    “I put it to you that this is not inexplicable. It is, in fact, very easily explained; we have chosen to remain colonized. We have chosen to serve foreign interests, foreign masters, and foreign gods. The tourist industry it service to foreign masters. The offshore financial services industry is service to foreign masters.”

    And of course the jokes and squatters in parliament for leaders…black leaders, cannot and will not break that cycle, they love the pretentious titles, opportunities for self-enrichment myth of development too much to be proactuve re breaking the cycle.

    They are just dependent in thought, word and dead, need foreign, preferably white people to think for them, disgrace to the human race.


  24. and the seven openly gay and lesbian members of congress are all Democrats the party of slavery


  25. @Pachamama

    The facts are these: Both the British Parliament in 1833 and President Lincoln in 1863 chose to act in defiance of the majority of the electorate who had voted them into power. The majority of THOSE ELECTORATES, overwhelmingly if not exclusively white people, held that slavery was sanctioned in the Bible, that emancipation would destroy the economy, and yes that emancipation was destructive of life itself.

    Were the British Parliament and President Lincoln wrong to act in defiance of their electorates?


  26. @ Peter Thompson
    Wait boss, are you saying that because you can DESCRIBE the malady that means that it is EXPLAINABLE?
    How the hell do you explain EDUCATED descendants of recent slaves CHOOSING to return to the identical state – after two generations of FREE education?
    …all you said was that it is happening…
    …W H Y ?????
    HOW is such madness possible?
    Why would such people CHOOSE colonisation ?

    @ balance
    ….perhaps garnered from the African genes with which we were saddled…
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    baloney!!
    That thinking is the result of centuries of brainwashing. African genes are the ORIGINAL deal. Everything else is the result of mutations (which are naturally impacted by the law of entropy)

    @ Old Baje
    Don’t laugh…
    Bushie was serious as shiite!!!


  27. @balance who wrote “There we go again with this Republicanphobia”

    I fully support the right of all Republicans to express their sexuality as long as they don’t hurt other people; I do, however, suffer from Hypocrisyphobia.

    George Rekers, an antigay activist and cofounder of the Family Research Council shocked the world in 2010 when he was caught returning from a European vacation with a male escort he found on Rentboy.com.

    Republican Alabama Attorney General Troy King engaging in an affair with a younger male assistant. King, who promoted bans on homosexuality and sex toys, was reportedly found in bed with the young man by King’s wife.

    Glenn Murphy Jr., an antigay advocate and former president of the Young Republican National Federation was sentenced to six years in prison after he was found guilty of sexual assault for performing oral sex on an unwilling male after a 2007 private party for Republican supporters in Indiana.

    Bruce Barclay, an antigay Republican county commissioner in Pennsylvania, resigned from his position in 2008 after being caught hiring male prostitutes and using hidden cameras to videotape at least 100 of these sexual encounters at his home.

    Republican California state Sen. Roy Ashburn came out in 2010 after reports surfaced of him being arrested for drunk driving after partying at a gay nightclub in Sacramento.

    Republican U.S. Sen. Larry Craig of Idaho was arrested in 2007 on charges of lewd behavior in an airport bathroom, for allegedly making advances to an undercover police officer. In prior years, Craigโ€™s antigay voting record had earned him praise from conservative groups such as the American Family Association and the Family Research Council.

    Bob Allen, at the time a Republican Florida state representative and cochairman of Sen. John McCain’s presidential committee, was arrested in 2007 when he agreed to pay an undercover police officer $20 to allow him to perform oral sex on him.

    Republican North Carolina State Senate candidate Steve Wiles caused quite the media buzz last year when his past life as a drag queen โ€” he was a promoter for the Miss Gay America pageant โ€” was brought to light in the Winston-Salem Journal.


  28. Peter Lawrence Thompson

    We wish to draw you attention to the more recent academic thinking, particularly the scholarship of Professor Gerald Horne.

    You will come to know that Abraham Lincoln was more influenced by factors other than that which you mentioned.

    Lincoln was influenced by his need to keep the States together as a nation. Not freeing anybody. The international or geo-political circumstances etc.

    The British Parliament was forced to act, not based on minority/majority concerns but global and local forces acting against slavery as an institution.

    And we know the leading commercial slaving institutions they then paid for their loses.

    In any case we are not convinced that despite your mis-reading of circumstances, anything much has really changed, up to now.

    Instead of seeking to justify the imposition of bulling as socially acceptable this slavery issue requires our primary consideration.

    This item is the recent brainchild of Obama as it will be of Clinton. It is a colonial trick to avoid truisms the masses are not to come to know. A terrible distraction.


  29. @ Balance

    You missed the point. Barney Frank did not hide his homosexuality and he certainly did bash homosexuals. There have been quite a few Republican congressmen and governors who held anti-gay positions but were later found out to be gay.


  30. @ PLT

    Sorry. I didn’t see that you had already answered Balance. And far more effectively than I could.


  31. @Bush Tea who wrote “are you saying that because you can DESCRIBE the malady that means that it is EXPLAINABLE?”

    Yes, I believe the malady is explainable, and further than that correctable. But I’m an incurable optimist.

    Such madness is built on the most widespread of human frailty, greed.

    Don’t get me wrong, this is not a blanket condemnation of Bajans who have had to struggle through difficult times and conditions. Neither do I exempt myself from criticism in this regard… my solution was to run away to Canada… this too can be seen as a fundamentally colonial existence.

    Nevertheless, with a little wisdom and a lot of patience…



  32. After all the long discussion will we get back to the point?

    How many Barbadians and others from civil society will next next general election demand from the political candidates to state their position on homosexuality?

    Then hold them accountable?


  33. @Pachamama

    I’m aware of the scholarship about emancipation; I mentioned none of the factors which influenced the decisions, merely pointed out the fact that they were taken against the wishes of the majority of the respective electorates.

    My point is this: the fact that the majority of the Bajan electorate opposes changes to the laws prohibiting sodomy does not form a veto for us to consider the ethical and pragmatic issues that confront the society vis a vis these laws. We must be open to the fact that the majority of a democratic electorate can be simply wrong. They have been wrong on occasions in the past and they will be wrong on occasions in the future. Majority sentiment is but one of many considerations that we should take into account.


  34. @David

    I do not hold out much hope that if we in the “next general election demand from the political candidates to state their position on homosexuality… Then hold them accountable” we will make any progress on this issue. I do not imagine that a single politician will risk saying anything except leave the laws as they are.

    Remember that in the 1860 election Lincoln promised no unilateral emancipation, although that is exactly what he did 3 years later. He knew what was right, but he also knew that he couldn’t get elected if he promised to do what was right.

    If Bajan culture evolves to the point that Bajans see homosexuals as their neighbors and cease being so afraid of them, then a politician might be brave enough to speak up for the human rights of this despised minority. Until then, any progress will probably only come through the courts as homosexual people bring suits to protect their human rights. This is mostly how progress has come about in other jurisdictions.


  35. @Peter

    Then long live the great hypocrisy!


  36. There will be no problem as long as Barbados never arrest and charge a visitor for buggery.

    Imagine if that happened to a Canadian visitor.


  37. Those of us living in Canada have to be tolerant with members of the lbgtq community especially in the workplace.

    Our Premier of Ontario is openly lesbian and has a wife.

    I am sure she would be pleased if the next PM of Barbados is a female and if the next President of the USA is also a woman.

  38. Well Well & Consequences Avatar
    Well Well & Consequences

    Lol…..girl power Hants.

  39. Well Well & Consequences Avatar
    Well Well & Consequences

    You will see how quickly they repeal those dumb buggery laws if their removal is dependent on aid, grants and investments for the island….a couple sanctions would cure the hypocrites and pretend christians across the island. …with all the hypocrisy, young boys and girls are buggered/raped every goddamn day on the island and the buggery laws are NEEVER enforced by the DPP, police, the hypocrite Adriel Nitwit, attorney general….they all a bunch of useless waste.

    The authorities do not enforce the rape laws when women, children and young adults are raped…they need to be sanctioned, that will create an instant turn around to their beastly mentality and hypocrisy.

  40. Well Well & Consequences Avatar
    Well Well & Consequences

    “There have been quite a few Republican congressmen and governors who held anti-gay positions but were later found out to be gay.”

    And that describes the hypocrites who are the most vocal in crying down and blasting homosexuality…playing games to get the popular vote instead of for reality.

  41. Caswell Franklyn Avatar
    Caswell Franklyn

    Hants

    You say that the Premier of Ontario is openly gay and has a wife. Who’s to say that she is not the wife and the other woman the husband.

    Sent from my iPad


  42. @ Caswell Franklyn,

    You may be right. “She now lives with her second spouse, Jane Rounthwaite,”

    She was previously married to a man.


  43. None of Barbados’ political leaders are openly gay so it will not be international news unless somebody come out de closet.

  44. millertheannunaki Avatar
    millertheannunaki

    @ Hants August 21, 2016 at 5:39 PM
    โ€œThere will be no problem as long as Barbados never arrest and charge a visitor for buggery.
    Imagine if that happened to a Canadian visitor.โ€

    Not only to a Canadian visitor but let the fools try that one with a British visitor with good political and social contacts and you will see the level of ostracism (economic and otherwise) Barbados would undergo. Barbados would be โ€˜blacklistedโ€™ as a destination of choice for the many British visitors who are certainly the mainstay of the Bajan one-cylinder economy.
    Oliver Messel and Ronald Tree must be smirking in their gay abandon graves.


  45. The great hypocrisy continues. We accept homosexuals as part of the daily routine read prime minister promised to honour Cammie Tudor AND we have a leading talk show host who is a homosexual.

    #hypocrisy


  46. Once more we see the futility of argument and public debate. Nobody changes his position, no matter how obviously absurd it is.
    Example: Jeff tells us that if you do not enforce a law, it is meaningless and should be repealed. He sticks to this foolish position even though a blind man can see that simply having a law on the books can prevent the homosexual lobby and its allies from launching a sustained media, public relations and ‘educational’ campaign, using public facilities and resources, to win a culture war against those who oppose the practice of homosexuality.
    Example: Claims are made that homosexuality is now “accepted”, and that Barbados will be cut off from foreign aid if it does not fall in line with the new norms.
    Accepted by whom? Only urban elites in North America and Europe accept homosexuality. The issue was never put to a popular vote in Canada or the UK, because the elites knew they would lose. They have relied on the courts and on parliamentary tricks. In the US, they have lost every vote on the issue, even in liberal California, and again have had to impose top-down rules.
    Tourism will not die because of a stand against homosexuality. For every New Yorker you lose you can find a replacement from the Bible Belt.

  47. Caswell Franklyn Avatar
    Caswell Franklyn

    None of Barbadosย’ political leaders are openly gay so it will not be international news unless somebody come out de closet.

    Hants, why did you use openly? Do you know something that I don’t? Please enlighten us.

    Sent from my iPad

    >

  48. Well Well & Consequences Avatar
    Well Well & Consequences

    But the bible belt retards do not have the money to travel to Barbados, most of them are rednecks who go to Florida or Myrtle Beach for vacation.

  49. Caswell Franklyn Avatar
    Caswell Franklyn

    David

    Cammie indoctrinated many of the DLP members and many of them looked up or looked back to him, depending on the position they were in during the indoctrination, so why should they not honour him.

    Sent from my iPad

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