The Jefferson Cumberbatch Column – Enforcing the Rule of Law (ii)
Caleb Orozco
“If public opinion were to be decisive, there would be no need for constitutional adjudication…” per Chaskalson P -South African Constitutional Court [1995}
It should not be thought that the recent and eventually successful claim of Mr Caleb Orozco in the Belize High Court that I commented on last week went unchallenged by anyone, even though we have learnt subsequently that the state itself will not be appealing the decision and, I suppose, will be amending the law as recommended by Benjamin CJ in his judgment to the effect that “This section shall not apply to consensual sexual acts between adults in private”.
Readers will be aware that the debate over removal or retention of the “buggery laws” as they have come to be known, has seen conflicting stances taken by those who consider the act, especially between two males, to be a nearly unpardonable sin by reference to sundry Biblical injunctions and by those who view the expression of love between any two adults in private to be no business of the state and even less so that of the criminal law. Indeed, since the law as drafted also criminalizes acts of buggery even between consenting spouses in the privacy of their marital bed, the legislative overreach should be clear to the most rabid advocate for the retention of the legislation.
It should be no cause for surprise then that three of the interested parties opposed to Mr Orozco’s claim were the Roman Catholic Church in Belize, the Belize Church of England Corporate Body and the Belize Evangelical Association.
Whatever might have been the authority attached to the views of these bodies had the matter been adjudicated in the Biblical realm, his Lordship was careful to emphasize that “the issue before the Court must be determined by reference to the fundamental rights provisions of the Constitution and not b[y] recourse to public views”. In this regard, he adopted the reasoning of Lord Bingham in Reyes v The Queen in 2002 where he had asserted, “In carrying out its task of constitutional interpretation the court is not concerned to evaluate and give effect to public opinion…”
And while, of course, the respect and influence of the churches in Belize were not to be ignored, it bore reminder that Belize was a secular state with a written Constitution that provided for the protection of the fundamental rights and freedoms.
Benjamin CJ dealt also with the preambled provision, similarly to be found in the Barbados Constitution, that our nation is “founded upon principles that acknowledge the supremacy of God…” He considered it trite that although Belize was a predominantly Christian nation, the reference to God and the Creator went beyond Christianity, given the protection accorded to the individual freedom of conscience that was inclusive of freedom of thought and religion. In his view, the reference to God and the Creator did not serve to import religious principles into the interpretation of the Constitution. It should be noted, as an aside, that the local Constitution makes no express reference to the Creator as does the Belize provision that stipulates “the equal and inalienable rights which all members of the human family are endowed by their Creator…” He concluded that the reference to the Supremacy of God did not import any specific religious perspective but merely acknowledged the historical origin of the fundamental rights in natural law.
A similar issue had been in previous dispute in Canada where the Charter of Rights and Freedoms makes an identical reference. There, in 1991, Muldoon J affirmed that Canada remained a secular state notwithstanding the reference . On his interpretation, “It does not make Canada a theocracy …it prevents the Canadian state from becoming officially atheistic…”
The chief resistance by the churches to the claim of unconstitutionality of the provision was based on the express limitation of the right on the basis of public morality. In this context, the Anglican Bishop purported that the provision, even though infrequently enforced, was “integral to the protection of the common good and public morality to the extent that its repeal would be inimical to the preservation of society as ordained by the Creator”. While this argument would carry some force were the law to be rigorously enforced, the seemingly plain disinterest of the state where the act is consensually effected in private does not support a claim that the state has any interest here whatsoever in preserving society according to the ordinance of the Creator, the letter of the law or otherwise. His Lordship the Anglican Bishop went further, asserting that the practice of homosexual acts is inconsistent with the witness of sacred scripture and against the natural order of creation.
The President of the Association of Evangelical Churches insisted that the section existed for sundry reasons of safety public order, public morality and public health. As his brother, the Lord Bishop was before him, he is unwittingly of the belief that the mere passage of a law ensures compliance with these dictates. As most contemporary compliance metrics are structured however, the true test of the function of a law is its effectiveness, a phenomenon that fails to pass muster in light of the notorious absence of any enforcement of the provision at all.
The Roman Catholic Bishop in his submission saw the principal function of the law as preserving a moral climate for members of the society to prosper and avoid vice and he suggested further in his affidavit that “an alien world view was being foisted on the people of Belize.”
Benjamin CJ did not accept these views although he conceded that they were “representative of those of the majority of the Christian community and perhaps of the population of Belize.“ However, he noted that the Court could not act on act upon the prevailing majority view or what is popularly accepted as moral. For him, there must be demonstrated, but it had not been done, that some harm would be caused should the proscribed conduct in the provision be rendered unregulated.
Again, the ineffectiveness of the legislation through an absence of enforcement forecloses any such likelihood, for if there is no visible harm in the existing context, the removal of the provision could scarcely be expected negatively to alter circumstances.
As I hinted last week, the local position, for a number of reasons, is not in pari materia with the Belize situation. Any repeal of section 9 of the Sexual Offences Act must therefore be effected by a parliamentary act (!)and it would take quite a courageous administration to effect such a reform.
Barbados Underground 
@ Peter Lawrence Thompson August 21, 2016 at 4:51 PM
“If Bajan culture evolves to the point that Bajans see homosexuals as their neighbors and cease being so afraid of them, then a politician might be brave enough to speak up for the human rights of this despised minority. Until then, any progress will probably only come through the courts as homosexual people bring suits to protect their human rights. This is mostly how progress has come about in other jurisdictions.”
Mr. Thompson, you write like a person who is intelligent, well read and has lived in a more liberally ‘enlightening’ jurisdiction.
What Chad 9×5 and his supporters should be explaining is the striking similarity that exists between homosexuals (both male and female) and left-handed people. Both ‘minority’ groups make up, generally, 10% of any human population.
Both have been significantly discriminated against through ages with lefties associated with the devil and evil doing. The Latin word for left-handed is ‘Sinister’. I am certain you are old enough to remember the time when right-handed people (the majority) used to ‘force’ left-handed children to use their right hand instead of the left by admonishing them that if they don’t change their ‘handling’ ways they will owe the devil a day’s work.
It a pity a similar etymological ‘darkness’ is not associated with the word ‘gay’.
On the global scheme of things it seems as if black people have a lot in common with both of these minority groups.
If only these Bajan homophobes knew that approx. 10% of their own black priests, lawyers, doctors and politicians are either hiding in the closet or bold enough to be open about their sexuality just as some 10% of them are forced to display their left-handedness.
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@David re “How many Barbadians and others from civil society will next next general election demand from the political candidates to state their position on homosexuality? Then hold them accountable?”
How do you mean accountable. Are you suggesting that they express their acceptance that Bajans should be able to openly give their preference and affection with partners? And then have the hypocritical Bajans dump them.
That will no sooner happen that one of them stand up and admit their preference for an honest government and disavow the insider money that fuels their campaigns and results in the ‘gifts’ to their benefactors. Hypocrisy all around.
The story by @Amused re the boy stoned after being raped by his ISIS commander is sad anecdotal evidence of the overall hypocrisy of men laying with men. That’s the worst case scenario unfortunately but its emblematic of how the church turned a blind eye to the behaviour of its priests and elders. And thus so did (does) our society.
I presume many of these same Christians would more readily turn over their affairs for safe management to the Speaker of the House than to an honest and trustworthy accountant who they know is gay and in a monogamous relationship with another man. The gay fellow is vile to them. The speaker, ‘oh he will be alright’. The hypocrites we are.
They would probably refuse care from a gay relative who is kind, medically trained and faithful to a fault and accept it from the playboy heterosexual male nurse who is boinking every pretty female that passes his way.
How does a sexual act – between consenting adults – trump egregious, socially unacceptable behaviors which often causes significantly more harm and which in the main are also disavowed biblically does not compute.
I can accept and completely agree with the tone of the Caswells of this world: don’t like gay practices but can definitely accept the person to act safely as a consenting adult.
But for all the ‘Bible Belter’ types who carry the bible in one hand and the wrath of God in the other I am discombobulated!
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@ chad99999 August 21, 2016 at 7:25 PM
“Once more we see the futility of argument and public debate. Nobody changes his position, no matter how obviously absurd it is.”
If only a position like yours was stuck to by the vast majority of white people and legislators when the vast majority black Bajans were still enslaved and treated as property and counted as chattel.
The Act legalizing slavery would still be on the statute books today and you would be in the field picking grass instead of standing in the way of human progress and enlightenment.
Why don’t do yourself a huge favour and try to count the number of homosexuals in China?
For a start, you can include the 17 million men who can’t find women. Maybe you could encourage your government of the Moral Majority in Barbados to import a few thousands for the many ‘gayly’ unmarried black women in Barbados.
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“Example: Jeff tells us that if you do not enforce a law, it is meaningless and should be repealed. He sticks to this foolish position even though a blind man can see that simply having a law on the books can prevent the homosexual lobby and its allies from launching a sustained media, public relations and ‘educational’ campaign, using public facilities and resources, to win a culture war against those who oppose the practice of homosexuality.”
Reminds one of the death penalty, no? Since when is it against the law to advocate homosexuality.? That orientation if not unlawful!
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WW&C
You are wrong about Evangelical Christians not being able to afford a vacation in Barbados.
Just last month, the Jamaican Ministry of Tourism announced a new, research-based initiative designed specifically to attract evangelicals to Jamaica.
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Shiite!!
The VERY last thing we need is advice from Bajan-Canadians about accepting the ways of the albino-centrics of this world.
Where as we here have been bending over backwards and applying Vaseline liberally to get massa to come back and establish his old plantations…. wunna went for the WHOLE hog and moved lock, stock and barrel to albino-land so as to be able to soak in as much as Massa’s piss as is humanely possible… Sarge seems to be addicted to the water…
We are certainly brass bowls for entertaining ‘Paradise pissers’ here, but the only thing worse is to be a portable toilet that actually goes home to the pissers to be abused….
Bushie supports Chad99999 here. Homosexuality SHOULD be illegal because it is unnatural, unhealthy, and shiity….
It is one thing for a society to close its eyes in the face of unprecedented WAVES of bullers being unleashed …and the obvious challenges of enforcing the law…
But to call for the ENDORSEMENT of the nasty behaviour because we may offend rich societies who have endorsed the nastiness is beyond mendicant…. (wuh yuh could leave out the ‘mendi…’)
Get a damn life.
The world is full of all kinds of freaks and misfits……not just bullers. How is it a ‘solution’ to accept these as ‘normal’ just because there are large numbers of the freaks who have money? Should we also accept that ugly, insulting, lazy ineffective JAs are ‘normal’ candidates to be PM?
..should we accept that teachers will use their influence to target teenage students for sexual pleasures just because this is so prevalent too..?
…should we lower the age of consent to eight …if we know that most children start having sexual experiences around this age?
Steupsss…
Bushie would REALLY like a scholarly exposition on the matter of land titles in Barbados post 1970……
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Jeff
Are you reading my words?
“USING PUBLIC FACILITIES AND RESOURCES”
Do you understand?
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Jeff..
Reminds one of the death penalty, no? Since when is it against the law to advocate homosexuality.? That orientation if not unlawful!
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Not a good analogy.
No one said it should be ‘against the law’ to be homosexually oriented. …just as it CANNOT be against the law to have TB.
But it surely should be illegal for someone to be going around spreading TB and promoting the affliction as ‘normal’.
This is why the law is against the act of bulling….
Rather that seek to discover what AFFLICTS a person ..that causes them to turn from the natural, beautiful love of a woman – to the UNnatural, UNhealthy shiite of another man, wunna pushing this abomination as a new normal…? …so as not to offend rich deviants?
Lotta shiite….
Wunna playing with SPIRITUAL LAWS that wunna do not understand….
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Chad…where those evangelicals see a way to make money off foolish black people, they will descend in droves…Jamaica has over 2 million people….a ton of fools believing in religion.
The minister might think he is the one going to make the millions off those dudes from the US…but make no mistake, those dudes have had centuries to hone their skills of exploitation.
Yall are really too easy, it should be a crime to not even have to use vaseline..lol
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@ Bush Tea August 21, 2016 at 8:32 PM
“Rather that seek to discover what AFFLICTS a person ..that causes them to turn from the natural, beautiful love of a woman – to the UNnatural, UNhealthy shiite of another man, wunna pushing this abomination as a new normal…? …so as not to offend rich deviants?
Lotta shiite….”
Bushie, that is where your argument falls flat on its own inefficacious face.
What set of analogies (Lotta shiite excluded) are you going to bring to justify the absent of legislation circumscribing the illegality of homosexuality among women (even women in high places)?
Maybe you find it a clitoral turn-on and see nothing wrong as long as it stimulates your sexually deviant imagination.
Why aren’t you calling for equal opportunity among the sexes and make cunnilingus a criminal act (just like buggery) whether it is practiced as a sucking activity or a gender-neutral blow job?
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@ Miller
…Wait Boss – where you suddenly appear from bozie??? …working on the Hyatt plans?
ha ha ha
Seems like a long time since Bushie has cause to bash you with the whacker…
Presumably you have heard that um get tek way ..and so you come here now to pompaset..!!?
What happen? …you worried about the spiritual consequences of wicking???
Well what such women do is just nasty and wasteful. Women (brides) happen to be representative of God’s church here on Earth (and a careful look will tell you that ‘wicking’ is what almost all of the so-called ‘churches’ do anyhow…. Wasteful, ineffective, unproductive, unhelpful….
If we understood GOD’s analogies, it would be clear that this abomination among women physically reflects the dangerous SPIRITUAL reality of BBE’s spiritual ‘bride’ (church)
The REAL problem with the MEN, is that they are representative of the spiritual bridegroom …who is come that we may have LIFE …and that more abundantly.
By rejecting the natural LIFE-CREATING heterosexual relationship with women in favour of the nasty, shitty, unproductive and unhealthy behinds of OTHER MEN, we are desecrating the sacred SYMBOLISM of the very GOSPEL of Christ …. that of offering LIFE to mankind….
Shiite man!!! this is like sticking the middle finger at BBE’s whole REASON for creating the experience called ‘Life on Earth’…
Dat is wunna business if wunna wanna do that kinda shiite….
NOT STINKING BUSHIE….
The least a fella could do – if he finds himself with unnatural inclinations, is to keep a low profile and pray for redemption…. but to be up and down the place calling on others to join in sticking a middle finger at BBE….. is downright dumb…
…and fully deserving of brimstone and fire….
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Here comes the unhealthy poop explosion which Bushie refers to
http://huffingtonpost.com/ entry/russia-poop-explosions_us_57b66dcae4b00d9c3a16c481?section=&
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/russia-poop-explosions_us_57b66dcae4b00d9c3a16c481?section=&
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Lol…
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Barbadians are notorious for slow and slowest to anything but sooner or later they will join the bandwagon of a brave new world when confronted with the realities of a complex and complicated world
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“Old Baje August 21, 2016 at 4:19 PM #
@ Balance
You missed the point. Barney Frank did not hide his homosexuality and he certainly did bash homosexuals. There have been quite a few Republican congressmen and governors who held anti-gay positions but were later found out to be gay.”
I am not letting you get away with that. Your post specifically inferred that Republicans were bullers and wickers and I brought evidence to show you that so were Democrats. So I do not know why you are hiding behind Mr Thompson’s post to whom I also say that I never implied in my post that Republicans did not have persons in their ranks who practiced sexually deviant behaviours.
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All I can say is thank our lucky stars that we have none in the BLP or DLP
Sent from my iPad
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@de pedantic Dribbler. I was waiting to see if anyone would get my point re the ISIS 14 year old, other than as a frightful happening. Thank you for not disappointing me and you took the point exactly leaving me with nothing to add.
@Jeff. Well done on the death penalty comparison. It will not have escaped anyone’s attention that this has been a political pawn for many years. Simmons promised to bring it back into force, both as AG and as CJ – and didn’t – because he couldn’t. Now we have Cornelius (whose husband is a hopeful candidate at the next elections) handing out death sentences. But will it be re-introduced? Very unlikely, given our international accords and the fact that those who support us economically view it as state-sanctioned murder, which happens to be my personal view also. But, whatever one’s view, there is something deeply distasteful and plain nasty about trying to drum up votes by promising to put someone to death. It shows that those who use this as a political competitive edge and perfectly prepared to kill to get what they want. That really bothers me. And my apologies for digressing, albeit briefly, from your excellent argument. I agree that if, therefore, neither law is going to be enforced, it makes absolutely no sense to have them on the books and the only benefit to them is to provide point scoring at election time – in other words, more empty promises from politicians to garner votes. But the down side is the question it raises by keeping these legislations in the minds of our financial supporters about Barbados’ human rights bona fides.
@Hants. I take your point about the s**t storm that would descend if Barbados tried to prosecute Canadian, US or UK citizen for consensual and private buggery. But it begs the question as to whether the human rights of Bajans in Barbados are less relevant than those of overseas visitors. Quite an indictment and ultimately ruinous.
@Casewell. Hants said, “None of Barbados political leaders are openly gay so it will not be international news unless somebody come out de closet.” And you ask if he knows something you do not about our political leaders? So what planet precisely are you living on? It certainly one that contains Barbados.
@Miller. Seems Bushie has his whacker out for you, amigo. Never fear. Poor old Bushie, like me, is plagued by his shortcomings which have become a legend in his own mind only.
On a personal level, let me say that I have dearly loved family members who are gay and who, fortunately for them, do not live in Barbados and who visit only out of love for their family and enlightened straight friends. But, I find the attitude to them and people like them deeply offensive and ultimately ruinous to our tourism. Because it does have the effect of making gay people, their parents, families and friends decide not to visit Barbados as a holiday destination, having instead a wide choice of other more enlightened places upon which to spend their vacation money. And that is an economic reality.
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@ Amused
Poor old Bushie, like me, is plagued by his shortcomings which have become a legend in his own mind only.
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Ever since you unsuccessful defence of Gollop in the matter of the abduction and murder of Mrs Smith you have taken to talking a roll yuh know….
Bushie is NOT plagued by any shortcomings….
Bushie is a normal everyday brass bowl just like all the rest o’ wunna….and he don’t give a shiite.
ONE SMALL DIFFERENCE ….. Bushie has been adopted by a BOSS….and enjoys the (undeserved) benefits thereof….
…so drop the shiite talk…
…and on your ‘personal level’ of having family members who are ‘gay’ ….. SO WHAT?
Don’t you also have some who are dishonest?
…some who are ill?
…some who are violent?
…some who are perhaps not even as sharp as AC??
No one hates them because of the straws that they happen to draw in life…. but if the dishonest ones begin to feel that their dishonesty should become the norm …and be the LAW of the land …then Bushie will bash THEIR sorry asses as well as yours..
Your advocacy skills seem to be on a serious decline yuh….
Perhaps it is time for your judgeship…..
LOL
ha ha ha
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”””””””””No one hates them because of the straws that they happen to draw in life…. but if the dishonest ones begin to feel that their dishonesty should become the norm …and be the LAW of the land …then Bushie will bash THEIR sorry asses as well as yours..””””””””’
That is a good summation for the ‘antagonists’
We are assuming that the other side, the side behind, is indeed the establishment now.
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The fact is that, with the effluxion of time what we individually have been brought up to hate, despise and fear, is becoming the norm.
The death penalty is now an abuse of human rights and, as Jeff went to LENGHT to highlight, whereas on the moral compass of a court ruling took that from a hypocritical ? society that decried sex among same sexes, we see how both justices, in different climes, spoke eloquently about the separation of church and the judiciary and what is weighed and assessed in their deliberations on buggery etc.
We homophobes are challenged, we are like men who, having travelled by sail all our lives, start to encounter the steam ship and have to give way to what some call progress and the occasional, to use Chad 45’s word, occurrence of a homosexual or lesbian in our family circle.
The otherness is anathema to us but, with the effluxion of time, we accept begrudgingly what is happening around us, either by reconciliation with the Biblical pronouncements of the pattern of the end times, or as legal practitioners, we accept the process of law.
That is not to say that we lie down as Chad says, for the occasional bulling or muff diving, but this slide to Sodom and Gomorrah, while not endorsed by us, is well, it is what it is. We can expect that during quiet moments with our spouses that we can always say that the extra gene came from their side of the family.
To be truthful, whether one is straight or “other”, it makes us have to query “the why behind this” and where the aberration came from but that is a perspective of an ole man at 2016 for at 2056, with the effluxion of time, straight people may find themselves persecuted by a predominantly other orientation society.
As usual Jeff introduced a topic which, as individually complexioned as the matter obviously is, got a ton of perspectives from the Biblical to the Statistical and from those who suggested? Subliminally? that an occasional bulling might be the order of the day.
I was fascinated with the list of people who were exposed though, not because of their station in society but the time to collate it lolol.
It appears to me that Patrick Todd will ultimately have his day when parliamentarians will, as part of their swearing in ceremony or as part of the first speech have to announce their orientation to the members of the HoA and in the same way that they are to provide a list of their assets, emphasis on ass, the HoA rules will require the WeJonesing crew to skin them for examination by other colleagues.
Who put the pepper in the Vaseline?
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@ Piece
As usual Jeff introduced a topic which, as individually complexioned as the matter obviously is, got a ton of perspectives from the Biblical to the Statistical and from those who suggested? Subliminally? that an occasional bulling might be the order of the day
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Jeff does have a way of bringing out the conflicts in seemingly simple situations…. he has that special “teacher’s touch”…
All those individually complexioned perspectives …(as you so eloquently put them,) would be important factors IF ….as the old folks used to say ….’We did mek weself….’
But in a world where we are the ‘sheep of the pasture’ and NOT the owners / builders / designers/ creators of that pasture …. what counts… is what the BIG BOSS says….
not a shiite else…
..and if we persists in ignoring the CLEAR consequences of going against the FUNDAMENTAL guidelines provided by the makers, we should NOT be surprised that the warranty expires prematurely…
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Amused
You see why I am weary of agreeing with you. It is unfortunate that you allow your bias and hatred to prevent you from being fair. You sought to give the impression that Cornelius J is handing out death sentences left, right and centre to benefit her husband, Ralph Thorne, who is seeking political office. You must know that the Judge has no choice. As far as I know, the death penalty is mandatory when a person is convicted of murder in Barbados.
You should do the decent thing and apologise to the the BU family.
Sent from my iPad
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Bush Tea August 22, 2016 at 11:04 AM #
..and if we persists in ignoring the CLEAR consequences of going against the FUNDAMENTAL guidelines provided by the makers, we should NOT be surprised that the warranty expires prematurely…
…………………………………………………………………………….
Skippah……take your head out of mythology and for once look at the real world,try to understand not only what the scientific research shows but use your eyes during a drive in areas that have animals and you will see the same sexes of all descriptions having sex with each other and do tell us about the type of punishement for men having anal intercourse with women.
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Lol…ahh, reality.
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@Casewell. There are many tools that can be used to avoid passing sentence of death while we await Adriel’s move loudly publicised by him on the BBC, no less. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-26743629 . If you do not know what those tools are, far be it from me to try to educate you.
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@ Vincent Haynes
Steupsss …it looks like you have spent the amount of time needed in the UK to come back mad as donkey yuh!! …..
Big people here having a discussion about law, higher moral codes, spiritual growth and human development…. and you talking pup about going around peeping at animal in heat….
Shiite man …what are we going to do with you…?
Look boss, one DOES NOT seek to advance human development by referencing the base instinctive behaviours of wild animals…. OK?
Last time Bushie checked, animals also had this penchant to chase one another down …and to eat victims for dinner….raw!!!
Most ‘humans’ can be assumed to operate at a higher level …. OK?
Oh …as as to that ‘punishment’ ..It is difficult for Bushie to think of any punishment much worse than having your highly valued asset enveloped in faeces….
oouuuwppp!!!
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Caswell
By their fruits ye shall know them.Amused is a supporter of the clown prince of the legal profession one Vernon the litigator who took his sister in laws chair in her own home to strike her with in the presence of his buddy Gollop and his wife who had to restrain him.Amused back him to the hilt in the foolsihness he is doing to the former partners in Cottle who refuse to repay client funds which they stole.Amused is more than biased.He is an accessory to the shenanigans and some even say Vernon know about Marcia’s untimely end.
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@ Bushie
While we agree on the moral, natural and spiritual dimensions we are yet to be convinced that the Bible is worthy of any valuation other than maybe metaphorical.
At the same time the Maccabees is obviously an historical account/s which should not be confused with the former.
Maybe that is why those gathered decided it was not to be in the ‘official’ account.
Indeed, our shared position on bulling could very well be compromised by the fact that King James and his ‘lover’ William Shakespeare, who led its translation, were known bullers.
In fact, Shakespeare wanted to have his name on the book. That met with rejection form King James. So Shakespeare inserted his code, secretly.
You are well aware of other problems relating to the compilation and issues of control by those who owned the printing presses, the thief of other peoples’ histories by the ‘Jews’ and so forth.
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Amused
Don’t be bashful, please educate me. You know as well as I do or better that the judge has no option, after the jury pronounce a verdict of guilty of murder, than to sentence the convict to death. We still have a mandatory death penalty for murder.
It is unfair and dishonest to insinuate that Cornelius J is electioneering on behalf of her husband when the law does not give her any room to manoeuvre. You aught to be ashamed of yourself. David should ban you from BU for deliberately misleading his readers, especially since you know better.
Sent from my iPad
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Caswell
Since Leacock the Guyanese DPP get exposed for repeatedly accepting manslaughter pleas for downright murder charges and he stop for now, the judge can only sentence a capital offence with one pronouncement.There is no discretion unless the combatants at the bar provide beyond the shadow of a doubt,the necessary evidence.
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“Indeed, our shared position on bulling could very well be compromised by the fact that King James and his ‘lover’ William Shakespeare, who led its translation, were known bullers.
In fact, Shakespeare wanted to have his name on the book. That met with rejection form King James. So Shakespeare inserted his code, secretly.
You are well aware of other problems relating to the compilation and issues of control by those who owned the printing presses, the thief of other peoples’ histories by the ‘Jews’ and so forth.”
I keep telling the slaves that these bibles are bullshit, a little history, most of it lies, mixed with a lot of mindwash written by ….surprise..homosexuals, pedophiles and a ton of sexual deviants from the churches.
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And they all make it up as they go along, century after century, you do not want to be there for the shit they will make up in 3016…another spinoff from the current crap.
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@ Jeff
We’ve had an opportunity to represent ourselves in a US court.
Nothing gave us more pleasure than to, in jest, call the judge, me laud.
You can sure get the undivided attention of the court, of course you’ve got to have something else to say. LOL
Separately
Jeff, look at the legal absurdity in the above clip and please share your thinking.
As we seek to to give rights to some categories, old deprivations continue at pace.
How could it be legally possible in 2016 for the police to chase two men who rob somebody. Then proceed to kill one and as the other turns up could then charge the second with murder under some twisted implementation of causation.
Having admitted they, the police, shoots the man, but law allows the second man to be charged with murder.
Is this real? And if it is, are these circumstances not more deserving of our time than somebody’s right to, as GP says, be a certain kind of mechanic?
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Pacha..during the commission of a felony, if someone dies, even if you did not kill them, your goose is cooked, you will be charged with the murder…….just another way to get ya in prison for life…made up as they go along.
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This is interesting.
“She questioned the forensic pathologist’s report, which said Shemar committed suicide.”
http://www.barbadostoday.bb/2016/08/22/coroner-wants-police-commissioner-to-further-investigate-shemar-weekes-death/
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Yes, Well Well
But the commission of the felony had ended
There was a chase, a man was shot unnecessarily
The police killed one man
To our mind the second man could be charged with the felony but to have him in jail for murder is extraordinary.
There are a lot of things wrong here. Does murder not require motive, means and opportunity.
None of these basic requirements were present.
Why is the policemen not charged with murder?
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“pieceuhderockyeahright -INRI August 22, 2016 at 8:59 AM #
The fact is that, with the effluxion of time what we individually have been brought up to hate, despise and fear, is becoming the norm.”
I do not know where you were brought up but growing up under the union jack in the ghetto we were taught to love family and friends , avoid violence and be respectful to parents , neighbours and elders and in school the motto was ‘manners maketh man’.
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“Amused August 22, 2016 at 2:39 PM #
@Casewell. There are many tools that can be used to avoid passing sentence of death while we await Adriel’s move loudly publicised by him on the BBC, no less. ”
forget Mr Brathwaite do not insert him into the debate- Isn’t the tool used by Justice Cornelius a legitimate one or a dildo?
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@Pacha, the policeman would scarcely be charged with murder in the US where black youth are seemingly cannon fodder for police. As the clip states the killing by the police was justified. The notion of constructive murder or the felony murder rule as it is called seems much broader in Illinois. At common law, it was restricted to those cases where the victim of the felony was killed during its commission, in Illinois, it extends even to the death of an accomplice or any other person, howsoever caused. The rule has now been abolished in Barbados and was long ago found to be unconstitutional in Canada.
Abolition of constructive malice
3. (1) Where a person kills another in the course or furtherance of some other offence, the killing shall not amount to murder unless done with the same malice aforethought, express or implied, as is required for a killing to amount to murder when not done in the course or furtherance of another offense -Barbados Offenses Against the Person Act 1994.
R v Vaillancourt, [1987] 2 S.C.R. 636, is a landmark case from the Supreme Court of Canada on the constitutionality of the Criminal Code concept of “constructive murder”. The Court ruled that crimes with significant “stigma” attached, such as murder, require proof of the mens rea element of subjective foresight of death, and therefore the provision of the Criminal Code for constructive murder was unconstitutional.
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@ Balance
It would appear like if you are incapable of understanding what i wrote so I shall repeat it for clarity
“The fact is that, with the effluxion of time what we individually have been brought up to hate, despise and fear, is becoming the norm.”
I do not know if you know these two words, “ham” or “buller” and I do not know it that means that I am saying that I WAS NOT “…taught to love family and friends , avoid violence and be respectful to parents, neighbours and elders and in school the motto was ‘manners maketh man’.”
The two are not at variance with each other as you would seem to suggest and I would again say to you that in my youth I was not taught to love “ham” or “bullers” in fact it was an active practice of the males with whom I interacted to proactively react to “hams” and “bullers” physically and verbally.
If it was different in your Union Jack Days more power to your generation and community. but you would seem to suggest that there was a greater acceptance and accommodation for this in earlier days and that the homophobia of which I speak was dumbed down since this was a variance to these other things.
But I can and will say that the verbs hate, fear despise while harsh, were the order of the day.
I was much older and part of a congregation of hand clapping washed in the blood pretenders when I gave a “brotherly embrace” to a differently oriented brother one Sunday Morning but it was a thing which up to that time, barring shaking a specific politicians hand, I never did.
So again, over time, the things that we were brought up to dislike, have now become the norm, while we, being who we are, forged in the fires of our experiences CANNOT shift to far from magnetic north.
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Pacha…there is no timeline for the end to felonies, they will just go all retroactive on ya…and ya goose still cooked, he is kucky he was not shot dead and then charged..ha
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@Balance. Naughty.
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Permit me to digress for a moment to ask Mr Sarge if he believes Mr Colin Powell’s version of what he communicated to Mrs Clinton about the use of her email or if he believes Mrs Clinton’s account.
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The Huffington Post · A study has found that people who display homophobic tendencies are more likely to be gay.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/07/17/study-homophobia-homosexual_n_7816390.html
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Ha, ha..they call them latent tendencies.
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Jeff
Thanks. We could not imagine this could be legal.
This makes our understanding markedly different.
By extension then, when bankers stole our money and it led some to suicide, sudden death, those bankers, financial institutions, could have been charged with murder as well, no?
This is absurd.
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Pacha…only if all the thieving bankers were blacks..lol
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@ balance August 23, 2016 at 5:03 AM re this was directed to @Sargeant and he surely can speak for himself but here is my sixpence re “…if he believes Mr Colin Powell’s version of what he communicated to Mrs Clinton about the use of her email or if he believes Mrs Clinton’s account.”
There is absolutely nothing to believe or disbelieve re Clinton’s use of email and Powell’s. Nothing of substance, I should say. What Powell did was practical both in context and technological abilities of the day. Nothing Clinton did can be equated.
The General kept his PERSONAL email off his work server. Something which many people do even to this day. That was basically what he told Clinton.
She on the other hand created her OWN server and routed both work and personnel email via that process.
So yea, Powell advised her that ‘eggs are good’ and the lady created a chicken farm. Nonsense.
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http://ow.ly/axLP303vaBZ
Pacha,…here is the disparity, a convicted black rapist woukd have gotten 15…30…40 years for the same crime, a convicted white rapist gets probation. It is now a trend.
While what the wall street crooks do falls under federal felony laws, not state laws, they are white collar crimes, the system will not recreate or amend laws to try these equally vicious criminals for murder.
They would just give them 150 years in prison fir Bernie Madoff ..120 plus years for Allen Sanford, when and if they are caught, most manage to slither away from indictments and convictions. Madoff got away for 50 years…Sanford for at least 25, before they got their dues.
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http://ow.ly/ZW7y303vcnR
In many states, just your presence at someones death during the commission of a felony, could mean the death penality, you could be parked 5 miles away, but if you drove the car or picked up the killer, you could be staring at the needle.
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http://ow.ly/2jZD303wfAW
Warning!!!
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A parting comment on the subject of Jeff’s post.
We have an obligation to try to make the world a better place. People disagree on what “better” means, but it is very hard to see how the changes in the culture since the 1950s can be described as improvements.
We have seen greater acceptance of sexual promiscuity, but that has led to an epidemic of sexually transmitted diseases that is so severe no sane man would sleep today with an attractive woman, or with any woman, without asking for the results of her most recent blood tests.
We have seen greater experimentation with forbidden drugs, but that has led to increases in addiction. Families have been destroyed and lives have been cut short.
We have seen feminism take hold, stirring resentment of men by women, who now demand leadership roles in society. As a result, the Caribbean is overrun with bossy, masculinized females, who presume to govern men. Jamaica has spent much of the last decade under the grip of a semi-literate female, the great Mama P. Imagine that.
Now we have people like Jeff promoting the homosexual agenda in the name of tolerance and enlightenment. As if we can afford more deviance and disorientation, with all the attendant financial and social costs.
Jeff, stop trying to change the world. You are just making things worse.
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@ Chad9999
… stop trying to change the world. You are just making things worse.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Again Bushie is forced to support Chad here.
Yuh would think that, given the RESULTS we are getting from applying our ‘educated’ solutions to the challenges we face in this world, we would at least …STOP DIGGING.
Instead, like Stinkliar, we continue doggedly to do more of the same in asinine anticipation of different results….
In his case, it is the increases in TAXES…
In ours, it is the continued REJECTION of God’s basic LAWS in preference to the albino-centric shiite laws that are based on greed, selfishness and spite….
Back in the ‘simple’, uneducated times, when our poor, forefathers KNEW NO BETTER than to try to adhere to God’s laws, they actually MADE PROGRESS….
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http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/neighbors-intervene-shotgun-toting-newark-police-chase-boy-10-article-1.2762158
People…be very careful when traveling to the US with your young black males…your young black children…they could be chased down by cops, there could be a deadly outcome.
Chadx9. ..it will hurt you even more to learn that women ruled the world for centuries before men, do some reasearch. The mistake made was allowing men to rule..now here we are…wars, death, confusion, blight…destruction.
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Chadmeister, I does read these lively blogs and cum here to enjoy the ‘partee. I does like to lighten my load of bumbaclot but comrade you does always try to darken the picture tho. My brother, the new cameras of life does allow lots of propa mods real fast and ting so all your effing blurry pics can get cleaned up real sweet so.
Does you know that Indira Ghandi run a big-ass country. And anudder sensible woman called Golda Meir. Then they was some a dem down in Argentina and ova in de Philippines. That is a lot pussycats who does roar like tigers. So that shiittee you talking bout de Caribbean being overrun by bossy womens in some effed up changing world created by Jeff and he maguffy explanation of the law bout bulling is one dark picture.
Good lawd bro, dem is a bunch of ahole male lion leaders who change Jamaica into a war zone and you gine cuss one tiger pussycat woman.
Looka, you really gots to stop wid dis fish or fowl tomfooloery. Women ain’t incompetent because feminism tek hold a nutting. That is talk from someone who is either still ‘handstanding the bees and the birds or who get slapped upside de head real hard by a woman.
And oh shittte here you squrting bout how you can’t pick up nah women for some happy time cause you is a sane man and sane men don’t lay wid nasty women. DARK PIC bro.
You didn’t one-a dem fellas dat get de clap before your ’50 revolution I hope. Cause lots of sane men and WOMEN did had to use commonsense bout who they wud drink or do screw-drivers wid.
Times change fah trute but one thing fah sure tho…you is a Lion dat want women sorta cooking nice meals. Yah want she to cook gourmet meals – how she learn is she business. And yah want she to be sexy and good in de bedroom, but she betta only be just good enough cause udderwise you gine be vex as shiite that she was a piecea whore although you was the only frigging man she had.
You in easy bro…and you pics too effng dark. Use some modern tech and filter that tomfoolery with some light, fah real.
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Blogmeister oh shittte save de post from de dump den. WTF going on there.
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Stoopidee me. That was more to be a personal note fah real.
But blogmeister an earlier post was treated like a dirty scab post and wasn’t let it. If you cudda let it join de other posters it would feel good.
Yours in blogging, Iggy.
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Loving iggy’s 8:59 a.m. response to the chadmeister.
Reading Chad is like tossing a coin.
He gets stuff right 50% of the time.
Still trying to figure out how he gets under the Bush Master’s radar.
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Anonymice – TheGazer August 24, 2016 at 11:39 AM #
My good friend and school alumnus is a chauvanistic,homophobic,misogonyst amongs other things who at times can see clearly.
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http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/judge-refuses-25m-bail-fugitive-returned-africa-article-1.2764477
I dearly love this judge, now this is what you call…enforcing the law. Lol
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Dexter Pottinger dead: Gay activist and face of Jamaica Pride found murdered in his home
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/dexter-pottinger-dead-jamaica-gay-pride-murder-stabbed-kingston-a7925556.html
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