est. 2007

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Are We Witnessing The Fall Of The US Dollar?

Submitted by Green Monkey


Click image to view short presentation (PDF Format)

The presentation summarizes a major factor (not broached by mainstream media) underlying much of the tensions in the Middle East. It’s also covered in this book by author William Clark: Petrodollar Warfare – watch video of the author explaining it all. In a nutshell, the value of the US dollar is propped up in very major way by being the default currency for trading in oil. If the world starts using other currencies for oil trades in a big way (as Saddam Hussein had started to do in Iraq pre-invasion), the US dollar will plummet in value big time and likely lead to a complete, economic collapse in the USA.

52 responses to “Are We Witnessing The Fall Of The US Dollar?”

  1. Rosemary Parkinson Avatar
    Rosemary Parkinson

    I understand that the dollar is plummeting as we speak, and heard a rumour that it is in deep trouble. Where will this leave us is what I would like to know from those who understand the economics of this strange world of ours. We attached ourselves to the US dollar and thought we were being cute at the time…but what happens now should things get worse?

  2. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Greenie it had to be you to finally bring this to the public. Right about now people should be queuing in front of banks demanding to get their money out … At the very least the GOB should be insisting that banks increase their reserves dramatically to allow for a better return to depositors when this whole thing blows. Instead we have banks dropping their interest rates and advertising to suckers to borrow more …!

  3. David Avatar
    David

    If we accept the view that US interest maybe behind the unrest in the ME or even have a hand in the replacement governments, then it is fair to say the USD as the trading currency for oil is protected.

  4. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    You folks just don’t get it, do you?

    The demise of the US dollar has been purposely planned and orchastrated, well in advance in order to bring in ‘One-World Currency’ which IS the precusor to the ‘One World AntiChrist Government, all part and parcel of the wicked, evil, Elite Globlists agenda; all of which IS prophecied IN God’s Word, the Bible.

    Wake up people, and stop looking to economists, for our solution to this End-Time crisis, for JESUS CHRIST, is the only security to any ones safety, and eternal destiny, all of the Signs are converging daily of the world stage, open your hearts and lives to the Lordship of Christ, NOT becoming a member of any church, but a Personal relationship with Him as your Savior and Lord!

  5. George C. Brathwaite Avatar
    George C. Brathwaite

    @ Zoe.

    Nations rise and fall; the history of the world shows this. Do you think we should abandon governments, leaders, institutions, and all else that seeks to manage the affairs of men? I admire your belief and the presumption that you have that personal relationship, but apart from God’s love, is not the greatest gift choice? Would you have any choice if the world goes into universal anarchy, based upon what you by implication, now advocate?

  6. iWatchya Avatar
    iWatchya

    David:

    The US and Israel (along with most of the world) had vital interest in keeping the current regimes in place. The G8 had no qualms about doing business with these states.

    Once the popularity of the old regimes fell, the US and all, had to move to save face and back the people of these countries (at least in the media).

    It is well documented in the news that Israel is running scared just thinking about the possibility of populist governments being established across the Middle East.

    Unrest in the ME is going to put further strain on any economy coming out of this worldwide recession and will, inevitably, put further pressure on the hamstrung US government.

    In my opinion, this would be the last thing that the US would want at this time.

  7. AOD Avatar
    AOD

    Obama’s silence on Libya gives it all away, the US government is paralyzed and appears hypocritical. Egypt did the old boss/ new boss thing which was fine for US interests. No such thing will occur in oil rich Libya, although it doesn’t export to the US, countries importing from Libya will now be competing more for oil from the same sources as the US. Quantitative easing destroyed the dollar, losing control of the Middle East will be it’s burial. The U.S hypocrisy has been exposed for all the world to see, if freedom for Arabs costs oil then for Washington it is too expensive. This is starting to look a lot like 1989, but this time no one will believe the US is sincere when they show up late to the party. First they lose the moral authority, then confidence, then the dollar, then their economy, then their freedom. Obama is running out of time.

  8. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Zoe you is talk some real shite fah truf ….

  9. Geraldine Avatar
    Geraldine

    Keep the comments coming…they help a young person like me to understand better the reality of things.

  10. Straight talk Avatar
    Straight talk

    @ Geraldine.

    If you want to understand a little more, watch “Money as Debt”

  11. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    George C. Brathwaite | February 23, 2011 at 9:38 AM |

    @ Zoe.

    Nations rise and fall; the history of the world shows this. Do you think we should abandon governments, leaders, institutions, and all else that seeks to manage the affairs of men? I admire your belief and the presumption that you have that personal relationship, but apart from God’s love, is not the greatest gift choice? Would you have any choice if the world goes into universal anarchy, based upon what you by implication, now advocate?

    Very good question asked!

    I am always amazed at people like Zoe and those of his ilk.
    They preach all this doom and gloom, all this end times , how societies will fall.
    Yet still, they are some of the most successful business men, feeding off the same people they condemn like the religious parasites they are!!
    I guess it ok to preach it but practice is a whole different story.

  12. islandgal246 Avatar
    islandgal246

    @Zoe “You folks just don’t get it, do you?”

    YOU don’t get it do you? Please go and take your medication NOW. You are gurgling and frothing.

  13. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    GCB, asked, “Do you think we should abandon governments, leaders, institutions, and all else that seeks to manage the affairs of men.?”

    Certainly not, and I never even indicated such a thing, what I said, was: “…to stop looking to economists, ( and yes, leaders, et al) for our solution to this End-Time crisis, for JESUS CHRIST, is the only security, to any ones safety, and ETERNAL DESTINY.”

    You see, GCB, mankinds core problem, IS spiritual, away from God and His Son Jesus Christ, the manifestaion(s) of which are then felt in every aspect of our societal affairs, i.e., financial, economic, family, and so on, as Righteousness, right living before God IN Christ, lifts UP a nation, but, SIN, is a reproach to any people; therefore, IF, we only seek solutions for the ‘economic’ woes, and fail to get right with Jesus Christ, we are then, still only addressing the symptoms of our real malady, and NOT dealing with the foundational reality, of why our ‘economies’ are SICK, and dying!

    Yes, after the Gift of eternal life in Christ, freedom of choice, either to accept, or reject God’s love is the greastest gift He has given us, sadly, most chose to reject God’s universal offer of forgiveness and Redemption in Jesus; those who have choosen God’s way in Christ, will be given the wisdom, guidence, and strenght to endure to the End, in what is going to be, unprecedented horror throughout the world, very soon.

    Go and read Matthew Chapter 24, hear what Jesus gave as a summary for this season, era, we are living in!

  14. Hants Avatar
    Hants

    @Zoe.

    Which year will the world end. 2011? 2111? 2211? 3000?

    Here is an absolute truth. We are all going to die.
    I suppose you are predicting that too.

  15. George C. Brathwaite Avatar
    George C. Brathwaite

    @Zoe

    And if you continue to write as if only you have a divine right that is able to correct whatever wrongs there are in the economy, or that the value of what you write has more merit than what other men and women choose to do, how does it help. Should we be after all of your exhortations “still only [be] addressing the symptoms of our real malady, and NOT dealing with the foundational reality, of why our ‘economies’ are SICK, and dying,” will you come from under the rock you hide and offer up a prayer for our rescue? Who are you to condemn what God has raised up? My friend, our last day started from our first, and while living each day as if it were our last, we trust God that our decisions would impact in a positive way on all humanity.

  16. Green Monkey Avatar
    Green Monkey

    Youtube video: American War Machine – Warning contains a fair amount of swear words so don’t play without a headset if you’re at the office or if Great Aunt Mildred has come over for a visit.

  17. Geraldine Avatar
    Geraldine

    @Straight talk
    Thanks, watching now!

  18. David Avatar
    David

    Look who is singing a different tune.

     

    Feb. 23 (Bloomberg) — U.S. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner speaks about the global economy’s ability to withstand the increase in oil prices caused by turmoil in the Middle East. Geithner, speaking with reporters at a Bloomberg Breakfast in Washington, also talks about the U.S. economy, corporate tax policy and China’s yuan. Bloomberg’s Al Hunt moderates the discussion. (Source: Bloomberg)

    http://www.bloomberg.com/video/66987916/

  19. maat Avatar
    maat

    It appears that Belgium, the HQ for much of European leadership, has been without a leader for some while now and has not fallen into chaotic anarchy.

    Perhaps the new model to develop from North Africa will be of a similar nature, with councils and committees making up the civil service and policy directives, rather than our shambolic system of cliques called political parties and egotistical leaderships.

    Whereas the Federal Reserve system in America has led the US to bankruptcy, there are several international economies that have a similar model hence the problems in the UK, Irish and some European economies.

    If we check for which countries are buying up the ‘precious metals’ gold/silver, we may get an idea on what comes next and who is seeking to control or maintain control of World economics.

    Peace

  20. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    GCB, No disrespect intended, but you obviously don’t understand the Word of God, the Bible, and its central message to mankind, and its answer for our societal problems, hence, you perceive that only what I’m trying to get across, is some kind of self-opiniated view of mine, when you have studied the Word as I have, with His grace for over 25 years, and, BTW, I’m not hiding behind any rock, you know nothing about me, where I’ve gone publicly, spoken in the printed press, on radio, and on TV, as I don’t hide behind any rock, here on BU, its more appropriate because of the nature of this blog, to remain anonymous, for obvious reasons.

    My very life has been threatened for standing up for Jesus, on radio, and elsewhere, and I fear no man, regarding what I have to proclaim, Jesus was rejected by the majority who heard, saw and experienced Him in Person, so were all of His disciples, beaten, and called mad, and I can’t bring water to my Saviour’s feet, nor Paul and the others, so if the world of ‘unsaved’ folks are offended because of the truth, so it be!

  21. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    I’m not hiding behind any rock, you know nothing about me, where I’ve gone publicly, spoken in the printed press, on radio, and on TV, as I don’t hide behind any rock, here on BU, its more appropriate because of the nature of this blog, to remain anonymous, for obvious reasons.

    LOL….you just have to love BU!!……Comedy night!!…time to charge a fee David!!

    My very life has been threatened for standing up for Jesus, on radio, and elsewhere, and I fear no man, regarding what I have to proclaim,….

    LOL……
    Really Zoe?……the nonsense you just posted is so contradictory that I am literally here crying while reading it.

  22. David Avatar
    David

    @Technician

    Would you prefer Zoe to bring in the Calvary?

    Say what you will he has been cast to the wolves by Dictionary and GP is off on his project for the while.

    Let us give Zoe props for manfully defending his faith because that is his right.

    Maybe we should all take a deep breath and watch the movie Agoro!…lol

  23. David Avatar
    David

    Here is a look at Gadaffi’s son reported to be the heir to the 41 year old dictator’s throne.

    Follow the BU LINK!

  24. Sargeant Avatar
    Sargeant

    Speaking of the US greenback, I’m surprised that no one picked up on the IMF warning re US Budget deficit.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/imf-warns-on-us-budget-deficit/article1917872/

  25. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    David

    I try listening to that interview and I lasted fifteen minutes … Don’t ask me what the man said… I can’t believe you had the stamina to listen to the whole thing. So much Nothing in his responses …!

    Now you see you gone and mention Zoe’s two friends … surely you must know that one of them is going to search for a mention of their names and throw in a series of responses that will change the flow of the discussion.

  26. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    David

    What propaganda shite are you helping to spread.. Have you not seen one too many of these vilifying campaigns exercised by the Western media houses? Are you not capable of learning from past experiences?

  27. AOD Avatar
    AOD

    It use to be hilarious when Turbo Tax Timmy (Timothy Geithner) spoke now it is so meaningless.

  28. AOD Avatar
    AOD

    The US dollar is still alive mainly because of:
    1: Confidence (Image)
    2: China and Japan can’t unload their dollars without taking a huge hit to their economies (Blackmail)
    3: Petrodollar status / Military superpower status (Might is Right)

    As of January 31, 2011, the Total Public Debt Outstanding of the United States of America was $14.13 trillion or 96.3% of GDP. (As a percentage it has been at higher levels in the past especially during WWII) But this does not include unfunded liabilities like Social security (fundamentally a Ponzi scheme), Medicare, Medicaid, nor the Frannie/Freddie mess so the entire figure is closer to 82 TRILLION

    The USA is currently living above its means, consumes more than it produces. That is made possible through virtually free money, Treasury bills are sold to Foreigners most notably China and Japan who take the “money” US dollars earned from past exports to the huge US consumer market and buy Treasuries. When the treasuries expire they are rolled over plus interest. This is how they store/reserve most of their wealth in dollars, which is great as it keeps the value of their currencies down and allows them to be more price competitive than goods and services produced in the US. As long as Americans keep consuming the imbalance increases. China and Japan thus maintains artificially lower currencies by using the dollar as a reserve.
    Industry migrated to China and Japan where the cost of production is cheaper, and US real jobs disappeared. (Jobs involved in producing goods) But how did the USA get to this point?

    Ethics of Greed
    By the 1990s companies tried to keep profits up through a combination of consumer debt, lower quality goods, and deliberate built in obsolescence. Loose monetary policy initiated by Alan Greenspan post the 1987 market collapse is primarily responsible of the mid- late 90s “boom” but concurrently NAFTA served to continue to gut the USA of “real jobs” . US consumption became increasingly credit based. As a positive, USA was the undisputed military superpower of the world (might is right is good for confidence). Russia was in shambles, and because oil was dirt cheap it made it even harder for Russia economically as the cost to produce oil there is higher than in the Middle East and North Africa. The Russian bear was kept in hibernation. The dollar was strong and gold was deep in a bear market. The Euro and Yen were minor in any role as a reserve currency. Greenspan kept the money flowing and post the 1997 Asian crises, money flooded the US equity markets with all the major induces roaring upwards. The Americans had the Dot-com bubble, and insane price to earnings ratios for dot-com start-ups, the trend of owning a stock for the long term, to get dividends was lost to the trend of buying in early and selling high. The internet as a trading platform for the masses was born. This was a period of rampant speculation; Greenspan called it “irrational exuberance”. People even borrowed to play the market, it became a virtual casino. This system required more and more players to join the game and maxed out in late 1999. Then the fear of the Y2k bug, returned some rationality and caution to the market. There was some profit taking, which was all it took for the exodus from tech stocks to begin (Fundamentally the dot-coms were 20th century Tulips” This was a time of a lot of confidence, and the term “New Economy” was in heavy circulation.

    The Naughty Noughties.
    Through 2000 the hits kept coming for the Tech heavy Nasdaq, and the US was in recession by March of 2001 (not September). Bush was President and many books could be written about what happened next but to be short and to the point:
    September 11th happened.
    Bush said to be patriotic and go out and shop, what better way to prove that the terrorists had failed but by a show of American wealth and opulence.
    Post dot-com bubble bursting a recession was due, but like all good Keynesians, Washington’s Fed buddies slashed interest rates to near zero and made the ”monies” available for late 2001 then longer term in 2003. The idea was to keep the boom going.
    Easy money, baby boomers speculating for retirement and a housing market bubble

    The Euro strengthen during this period of low interest rates in the US, and for the first time since 1971 oil could be purchased in a currency other than the USD. Hedging the Euro and Dollar was an emerging trend.

    Back in the US it was a time to flip some houses. (just like dotcom stock in the 90s)

    Wars in Afghanistan 2001, Iraq 2003 (very expensive, meant budget deficits as far as the eye can see)
    Repeal of Glass-Steagall Act, by 2004 as the housing bubble was running out of air (Paulson’s Idea)
    Massive leverage meant more easy loans and mega over the moon speculation
    Subprime, alt-A, ARM etc. Refinancing the house into an ATM was en vogue.
    Massive trade deficits, from buying up all that Chinese junk.

    Credit default swaps, Collateralized debt obligations, Derivatives and Toxic paper. I.e Fraud and monstrous debt.

    Then it all unraveled.
    Sub-prime crises of 2007, and the terminal stage of the derivatives Ponzi scheme.
    Panic of ’08 and the credit freeze
    Death of US consumption
    TARP, “bailouts” and quantitative easing otherwise known as “printing money” (misnomer since it is numbers in a computer system). The flawed concept of “too big to fail” was introduced, with moral hazard and the death of American capitalism by rewarding failure. This is refer by some as the birth of a new American socialism.
    Huge state deficits, lost of tax receipts especially in states like California, job losses, foreclosure deepening recession, commercial real estate depression etc.
    Although in the noughties there was a steady decline in the value of the dollar, a collapse in the dollar even up to 2008 was relatively easy to avoid. 2008-2009 saw deflation which was healthy and gave the dollar some bounce, but by 2010 the money printing (monetizing the debt) era began to appear in the real economy. Inflation returned and the US was poised to repeat the mistakes of the 1930s.

    Next I will discuss Triffin’s Dilemma and how it applies to the current crises. And why in 2011, even states are discussing a contingency for the dollar collapse. Virginia is the first example that comes to mind.
    http://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?111+ful+HJ557+pdf

    It is very difficult to be concise and brief on such an all encompassing topic but I’m trying.

    Barbados is Home

  29. David Avatar
    David

    Hello!!!

    FEMA orders"$1 Billion "in dehydrated food,Terror threats rising
    Thursday, February 24, 2011 6:56

    February 24th, 2011 1:22 pm ET

    Terror threats appear to be on the rise as FEMA has rushed a $1 Billion order of dehydrated food in the event of attacks on domestic targets in the US.

    This is also coming on the heels of one of the largest terror drills performed by the US Navy on American soil, as Operation Solid Curtain is taking place this week.

    In an article Tuesday from the Beaufort Observer, many of the largest suppliers of dehydrated foods in the country are dropping their distributors and customers to dedicate their resources to supplying a billion dollar FEMA request and purchase.

    One of the nation’s largest suppliers of dehydrated food has cut loose 99% of their dealers and distributors. And it’s not because of the poor economy. It’s because this particular industry leader can no longer supply their regular distribution channels. Why not? Because they’re using every bit of manufacturing capacity they have to fulfill massive new government contracts. Look, the government has always been a customer of the industry to some extent. But according to our sources, this latest development doesn’t represent simply a change of vendor on the government’s part. It’s a whole new magnitude of business.  More here

  30. Christopher Halsall Avatar
    Christopher Halsall

    I’m going to take chance here…

    @BU.David: “Hello!!! WRT “FEMA orders”$1 Billion in dehydrated food,Terror threats rising

    Looks like dog shit. Smells likes dog shit. Tastes like dog shit.

    Good thing we didn’t step in it….

  31. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    AOD

    I worship thee …

  32. Crusoe Avatar
    Crusoe

    Good summary there by AOD. One thing though, is how does one reduce ‘book debt’? Simply, to devalue it.

    How does one devalue it? Simply, by increasing inflation.

    How does one increase inflation? Simply, by increasing the cost of the greatest input…oil.

    Inflation devalues our living standards, our lifestyle, increases current costs and asset values, while, devaluing debt.

    THAT is the aim.

    Now, on the whole scenario.

    Of course the Middle East is on the verge of chaos, probably someone playing ‘stir the pot’.

    It will undoubtedly end in ‘military intervention’….some will call it occupation.

    But, oil will be secured, jobs will be had for production of military goods, in the military etc.

    It will be a long occupation. Russia, China etc will not intervene, indeed the agreement may have already been reached that this is ‘for the good of all’.

    The emergency food production…is this for FEMA or for the military rations???

    If for the military….speaks for itself.

    If for FEMA…of course with things ramping up, one must be able to feed people in urgent situations, probably more to do with economics than terrorism.

    Remember, an emergency can be economic also.

    We are about to enter the twilight zone…we need to get our minds around THAT.

    May sound alarmist, but we will see.

    Our lesson is to safeguard local foods and production.

  33. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ Crusoe / AOD

    When Bush Tea’s old Granny was lying on her death bed the young doctor had a brilliant and impressive analysis of what was happening to her, what the causes were (diabetes and hypertension were major factors); what caused the situation; what drugs could, if properly administered, address the situation; and his expectation of a favorable outcome.

    …..the bushman’s analysis then (as it is now) was simple – Granny had reached the end of her life on earth and it was all downhill from there.

    As it was with Granny Tea, you will be amazed at the rate of acceleration downhill for mother earth…

    The only important question to be addressed now is “To what extent has Granny achieved the fundamental objectives of her existence?” Granny Tea was proud of her role in the creation of little Bush Tea. One wonders how many “micro mock engineers” there are out there -of whom Granny Earth is proud, satisfied, and pleased….. she will very likely die with the same smile on her face as granny T….

  34. ac Avatar
    ac

    People would die . THe earth would continue to evolve defying all those whose intent was to destroy it. Mother Nature is more powerful than mankind and has all the tools necessary for its survival.

  35. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Granny Tea … ha ha ha … that is so funny ha ha ha …

  36. David Avatar
    David

    Ok, which is it?

    In an earlier comment we have US Treasury Secretary stating the US economy is in a better position to withstand the shock of increasing oil price yet the FT is reporting doubts at such a position.

    @Bush Tea

    Is your last comment meant to illustrate ‘entropy’ for dummies? lol

  37. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ David

    Einstein was reported to have advised that it would be madness to expect the solutions for modern complex problems to originate from the same kind of thinking that created those problems in the first place…. (or something like that LOL)
    …. the best thing that these ‘experts’ can do now is to admit (like our current Governor of Central Bank) that they don’t know squat.
    …. forget the Financial Times, Treasury Secretary etc.

    @ David, Entropy is probably the single most pervasive reality of nature. Indeed, any phenomenon that appears to defies entropy is deemed to be ‘super-natural’.

    The Bushman cannot for the life of me, understand why bloggers would think that mother earth was supernatural…??!!
    Fortunately there in no need to argue over this matter, just wait a few more months for the answer……

  38. Crusoe Avatar
    Crusoe

    @Bushie,

    Two things. As I have said, I disagree with you, we are but a blimp in Earth’s own life, yes, Earth has served our existence, but it does not mean that Earth will not go on for more reasons.

    The Earth does clean itself i.e. quakes, volcanoes, hurricanes etc.

    A few large ones and much will be changed, with us little mankind, onwards.

    Further, ALL of life is a cycle, however we look at it. Our, Earth’s, are also cycles, in whatever form or fashion that may come.

    Note ‘whatever’ form or fashion….the energy will be continued.

    There is no end, only change. Even for us, in ‘death’.

    Only change.

    And how do I know this?

    Because I do.

    😉 RFLMAO

  39. Crusoe Avatar
    Crusoe

    Now, the above is based on one definition of entropy i.e. inevitable social or system breakdown BUT if you want to focus on another definition of ‘entropy’ i.e. the tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity…..

    That is reaching a bit for me…I’ll stop there.

  40. David Avatar
    David

    The Saudis doing all they can to compensate for Libya – Saudis lift oil output to fill Libya shortfall.

  41. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    The US taking unilaterral sanctions against Libya … Wah I tell wunna… Who was behind this all along….

  42. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ Crusoe

    Good decision to stop there with the analysis of entropy. You are clearly much too intelligent to come to any but the obvious conclusion if you persist…LOL.

    Wishful thinking is good for the spirit, but it is realism that brings results. Everything revolves around cycles as you correctly say, however entropy essentially says that each successive cycle represents a degree of degeneration into chaos and disorder, which, with complex living systems, mean death.

    Evert day, week, year represents a cycle in your life and we all know where that will lead…..
    With earth, we have had multiple centuries of complex cycles…. what do you think THAT means?…. especially as you can see the degree of disorder and chaos that only appears to be accelerating negatively?

    You are too smart to fight the obvious Crusoe….. leave that to others…

    In the Bushman’s opinion, a blogger of your ilk should be more concerned with the bigger picture of what the REAL program is all about, and why this phase of human existence was needed in the first place; and what critical purpose it has now SUCCESSFULLY served in the REAL program…..; and why it has completed its course….; and what the next phase in the REAL program will involve.

  43. ac Avatar
    ac

    I don’t understand why people of intelligence think that Mother Earth is going to die. Mother Nature has been in existence before Man and would continue in existence after Man. Mother Earth created Man . Man did no create Mother Earth., Therfore only Earth has the secrets and the whereforall for its ever existence.”
    World without end Amen!

  44. Crusoe Avatar
    Crusoe

    @Bushie

    ‘entropy essentially says that each successive cycle represents a degree of degeneration into chaos and disorder, which, with complex living systems, mean death.”

    – can we not say that ‘degeneration’ is ‘reorganisation’, that we need to break to rebuild, that the ‘chaos and disorder’ is the intent and in reality a mere ‘step’ to the ‘real’ order? And that ‘death’ comes before rebirth, even in another form?

    ‘Every day, week, year represents a cycle in your life and we all know where that will lead….
    -‘ yes, to ‘this death and rebirth and again ‘even if in another form’

    ”what do you think THAT means?…. especially as you can see the degree of disorder and chaos that only appears to be accelerating negatively”
    – could we look at it not that the acceleration is negative but merely an ‘intended’ pathway to a new ‘state’

    ‘bigger picture of what the REAL program is all about’

    – the ‘BIG’ question asked from ‘time immemorial’ ( 😉 ) , but surely the big picture is in essence and by extension also one of continuing evolution, of soul / spirit, as an integral piece of the universe? There comes a point that is not possible to go further, albeit quantum physics…..

  45. Crusoe Avatar
    Crusoe

    errata ‘- could we look at it not that the acceleration is NOT negative but merely an ‘intended’ pathway to a new ‘state’

  46. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ Crusoe

    The bushman always knew that you understood the basic picture..LOL
    All your submissions are correct. What needs to be clarified is the PERSPECTIVE.
    “Death” in a natural system IS simply a phase of change, and indeed as you say, planned change….. but that is understood when viewed from the more advanced perspective.

    …someone looking on from a purely physical perspective (the one from which we generally speak here on BU -dealing with economies, FOI etc) has a very different reality….

    Perhaps you even understand then, what Jesus meant when he spoke of the need to be ‘born again’ into the REAL reality…???

    So if you wish to let us debate from the perspective of the REAL reality- then so far you and the Bushman are on the same road. If however we are dealing with such issues as the stability of the US dollar, the longevity of this old earth and the continuation of our physical reality then Bushie’s prognosis for Granny stands…. LOL

  47. ac Avatar
    ac

    I know some of the religious people here on BU. must have read the bibilcal account of the flood.Even though it stated the world was destroyed by the flood. Evolution is prove that the world cannot be destoyed.AS the world stands today it is as if time stood still for Mother Earth. Mother earth is timeless and would continue with evolution continuing to replenish the Earth!

  48. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    …… by the way ac, ‘world without end’ refers not to mother earth, but to a new reality soon (relatively) to replace granny…..

  49. AOD Avatar
    AOD

    Evolution, and creation are [n]ot separate but unfortunately monist ontology projects such an illusion, all faithful classicists are trapped in that house of mirrors, the house of one substance. “Energy” is just another one of those mirrors and so is entropy. Consciousness pisses them of because it refuses to dwell in their small house. Nietzsche said it well, “all creators are at first destroyers”. The “Invisible hand” is consciousness, with choice as merely a “snapshot” of its flow.

    Barbados is Home

  50. ac Avatar
    ac

    world without end refers not to Mother Earth but to anew reality soon(relative to replace Granny!
    How about the world and all that dwells there in ? What can be more relative than that! Look Granny can Die as evident with your Granny! But Mother earth is soil that is made up of many particles many of which cannot be destroyed .not even wit nuclear power. wE as a people would perish but Mother Earth with its awesome multiple powerful built in facets would not be destroyed. Mother Earth knew that as a people we are doomed and self destructive.Therefore Mother Earthwas properly planned and well prepared for the inevitable having evolution as the major weapon against mankind

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