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The Mark Of The Beast, The Coming Of The Anti-Christ,The Dead Sea Scrolls

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It is no secret that there is a constituency which dwells in the Barbados Underground who enjoys a robust religious debate. In recent times there has been rich discussion about the Jewish Talmud, The Promises of God and currently The Bible And The Qur’an, Brothers Kept Apart. This group is comprised of Atheists, Agnostics, Christians and others, we even noticed the description Apathiest.

Surprisingly to the BU household the religious conversation has attracted a healthy following based on what we see from back here. We hope that we are not twisting any arms but there are some Christian events which require clarification.

The BU household wishes to ask our religious luminaries to explain how they perceive revelations linked to the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls can potentially reshape religion as we know it.
Explain the Mark of the Beast and the much discussed the coming of the Anti-Christ.

Attached is a Power Point Presentation which has been in circulation for sometime which some believe is the Mark of the Beast exposed!

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820 responses to “The Mark Of The Beast, The Coming Of The Anti-Christ,The Dead Sea Scrolls”

JJ

May 28, 2009 at 12:06 pm

RATURE DECEPTION – PROOF #2

Luke 17:22 -27 “And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.”

Just like in Noah’s time? Did Jesus lie when He said…”So shall it be…”? Don’t these verses seem a bit obvious?

The ones in the ark were saved.
The ones that decided to ignore the warnings of Noah were destroyed. And they were destroyed UNEXPECTEDLY! For it says they “did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark..”

Also notice it speaks of “…lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven” in that passage. I understand that even a blind man can see the light emanating from lightning. This passage is speaking of the brightest natural occurrence of light on planet earth shining from one end of the earth to the other on that day. How I ask can that be done in secret?

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JJ

May 28, 2009 at 12:06 pm

RAPTURE DECEPTION – PROOF #3

Luke 17:28,29 “Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. ”

“Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot?”… Let me ask you this… If Jesus was planning on two phases to His return, why would He tell us His return would be as it was in the days of Lot? Why would Jesus compare an event in Genesis chapter 19 that shows Lot being led out of the city to safety, and then the city is destroyed, that very same day? Think about it… Jesus has just compared His second coming with two events in Biblical history in which both events show people being saved from certain destruction, and people being certainly destroyed together ON THE SAME DAY!!!!

Both Noah and Lot witnessed with their very eyes people being destroyed and being spared the exact same day! No way around that except through UNBELIEF!

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JJ

May 28, 2009 at 12:07 pm

RAPTURE DECEPTION – PROOF #4

Luke 17:30-36 “Even thus shall it be in the day WHEN THE SON OF MAN IS REVEALED. IN THAT DAY, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

Where are they left?

Luke 17:37 “And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. ”

Let me ask you this… Have you ever seen raptors (no pun intended!) gather around people playing on a beach? How about vultures circling overhead while people are working in their gardens? Are there falcons hovering over people going to work? Getting married? Working in fields?

When the Apostles asked Where, Lord? Jesus rather bluntly told them that those people that were not going to Heaven that very same day would be LEFT BEHIND DEAD. Jesus didn’t say that they would be left behind to deal with seven years of tribulation like the pre-trib theory states. Nor did Jesus say that they would remain behind for three and half years like the mid-trib theory proclaims. Just like Jesus illustrated by using both Noah and Lot, He declares here they were destroyed THE VERY SAME DAY.

On the housetop are those at home
In the fields are those at work in the World
In the bed are those in the grave
The “women” are churches
The mill is the work the churches are doing

People of all walks of life will be taken to Heaven on that day whether they are at home, at work, at church, or in the grave. The rest will be left behind as bird food.

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JJ

May 28, 2009 at 12:07 pm

RAPTURE DECEPTION – PROOF #5

1 Thess 4:15-16 “For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:”

The Lord will descend WITH A SHOUT! I ask, how do you shout in secret? And to further prove the error for what it is; In context, this passage easily confirms verse 15 as speaking of the same event and part of the same string of explanation being shared when it continues on saying directly after stating WE ARE ALIVE, that the Lord returns with a shout.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
In verse 15 it speaks of “we which are alive” and states we will not precede or prevent those “which are asleep” in the graves. The order of events is crystal clear:

1) The dead in Christ RISE FIRST.
2) The living saints are then translated and meet the resurrected saints in the clouds

OBVIOUS QUESTION IS:

HOW CAN ALL THOSE GRAVES BURSTING OPEN BE DONE IN SECRET???

Because according to this verse, the dead saints rise BEFORE the living ones are caught up!

Psalm 50:3 “Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.”

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JJ

May 28, 2009 at 12:07 pm

RAPTURE DECEPTION – PROOF #6

Matt 24:36 “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

If the secret rapture / 7 year / 3.5 year trib theory was correct it would mean everyone left behind would know the exact day and hour of Christ’s return. All one needs do is calculate three and a half years forward, or seven years forward from when the millions of Christians vanished into thin air and you would get the exact day and hour that Jesus would return.

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JJ

May 28, 2009 at 12:08 pm

QUOTE: “I asked Why don’t you think that the saints are in heaven by Revelation 4?
You responded.
If the “saints” refer to all who are saved, then they are not in heaven by Rev 4 simply because Christ has not come yet to resurrect them to life everlasting. However Enoch, Moses, Elijah, the 24 Elders and those who were raised in Matt 27:51-53 (the last 2 groups may overlap) ARE in heaven because God has taken them there.
Will you read John 5:29. I Cor 15:51 et secq, I Thes 4:13-18 & Revelation 20: 5 et secq and ask the Lord to help you to see that there are TWO RESURECTIONS, and reason that these are separated from eah other it seems by at least 1007 years?”

I know that there are 2 resurrections separated by 1000 years. But you are the one who doesn’t seem to know that those I’ve mentioned in my previous post (Enoch, Moses, Elijah, the 24 Elders and those who were raised in Matt 27:51-53) are NOT part of either of these general resurrections! Double check what I wrote and what you wrote. Look at the specific examples of people I gave. And honestly tell me that you realize that they are NOT part of the resurrections mentioned in “John 5:29. I Cor 15:51 et secq, I Thes 4:13-18 & Revelation 20: 5”

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JJ

May 28, 2009 at 12:08 pm

Dear Zoe,

You wrote:

QUOTE: “Would you be kind enough to identify if you are an Seventh-day Adventist?”

Zoe, I must respectfully answer that I’m not an SDA. I’ve never even step foot in an SDA church. Never. I have no affiliation with SDA’s. I’m not a member of the SDA’s. There are reasons for this which I won’t go through here yet. However I will say that I thoroughly believe in the seventh-day Sabbath as well as the Second Advent of Christ.

QUOTE: “Why did Jesus oberseve the Sabbath?”

Because He was perfectly obedient.

QUOTE: “You said, “The Mark of the Beast is Satan’s attempt at counterfieting the Seal of God.”
What is the ‘Seal of God?” Prove from Scripture, not implication, or dogma, what or Who is the Seal of God?”

This is what I originally set out to do and I will do this. However, please be patient with me as I’d like to answer other misconceptions first. Thank you.

I’m sorry, but I’ve run out of time today. Like I said elsewhere, I only have limited internet access so I’ll respond to your and Georgie Porgie’s other posts tomorrow. Blessings.

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Georgie Porgie

May 28, 2009 at 4:17 pm

JJ you wrote…in response to my statement that ….“On the basis of Paul’s teaching that the saints are not subject to God’s wrath, they must be in heaven before the judgements start.”

You are automatically assuming that since the saints are not subject to God’s wrath, they must be in heaven. And you quoted Daniel 12:1, Jeremiah 30:7, out of context and with regard to the fact that these verses refer NOT TO THE CHURCH WHO ARE NOT MENTIONED IN THE OT, AND WHO WILL BE INDEED RAPTURED, then you contradict yourself by quoting Rev 3:10 and Matt 28:20, which DO refer to the church, and the dispensation of the church or the age of grace!

Again John 17:15 refers to the church age, as Christ was speaking to men who represented and stood at the point of the changing of the guard. These men were at the beginning of the Church age.

When we talk about Rightly dividing the Word of Truth and about Hermeneutics and Dispenstions & Covenants here on BU in the past, folk have frowned and scoffed, but you can see what we mean now, I hope.

BTW What is spiritual Israel? And what does that have to do with the price of cheese?
People from all nations WILL BE PRESENT on earth when the four winds are being loosed.
144,ooo servants of the Lord (Jews) will be protected as they do their evangelism, after which they are slain.

Though the Israelites were present during the 10 plagues in Egypt when Pharaoh was ignoring the warnings of God through Moses, they were NOT affected by any of the plagues in anyway.

The Israelites were spared because they were believers at all Sir as you opine! They were delivered by God’s grace at that time. In fact ALL, every single one of them fell in the wilderness after wards except Joshua and Caleb because of THEIR UNBELIEF!

The Lord spared the Old Testament Hebrews by causing the destroying angel to “pass over” the houses of the believers so the plague would not harm them as A TYPE OF SALVATION BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST.

In like manner believers who today believe in the ANTITYPE THE LORD JESUS will be spared.

Fellow, you contradicting yourself when you quote Romans 5:9, which was directed to folk in the church age and refers to the church!

Romans 5:9, “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”
You wrote and correctly so that
The Lord protected His own in the Old Testament by the blood of the lamb sacrifice, and He promises to protect us New Testament believers by the “…the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” (John 1:29) Both sets of believers show their faith by the blood of Christ, do they not? The Old Testament believers trusted God by a show of faith by placing the blood of a lamb upon the doorposts of their houses, we have the Blood of the Lamb upon the doorposts of the heart.

But you have taken Psalms 91:10 out of its context to make your pretext or point! Being raptured before the judgements of Rev 6-19 has nothing to do with our dwellings. We wont need to worry about dwellings because John 14 states that In my Father’s house are MANY DWELLING PLACES (translated in the KJV as mansions).

You wrote
The obedient true child of God is indeed NOT subject to the wrath of God! So WHO IS the subject of God’s wrath? And correctly cite John 3:36; Rom 1:18; Rom 2:5; Eph 5:6; Col 3:6

You then ask

If we are not present during all the time of trouble, please explain these verses:
Psa.27.5 ; Psa.37.39 and Matt.10.17-22 none of which have nothing to do with the issue at hand Sir.
Matt.10.17-22 refers from the context to evangelists in the church age.
Matt 24:9-14 & Matt.24.22-27 & Luke 21:28 refer to the tribulation period and particularly to the Jews again from the context, as Jesus related the answer to the question of the two pairs of brothers to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, ie Daniel 8

John.16.33 and Acts.14.22 refers to the trials or testings that believers have been predicted to endure during the Church age. James 1:12 tells us about WHEN we are tested, and both Peter & Paul predict trials or testings and tribulation for believers BUT AT NO TIME DOES THE WORDSAY THAT BELIEVERS OF THE CHURCH AGE WILL GO THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION.
.
Rev.1.7 refers to the epiphanea or glorious coming of Christ or the second phase of the second coming.
2 Thes 2:9 refers to the rise of antichrist
Rev.7.14 has nothing to do with folk from the dispensation of the church age or the age of grace, but to do with the dispensation of the tribulation period which lasts seven years.

JJ I am glad that you are not part of any “denominational dogma.” And I am sorry that your wide reading – and it seems that you have made an effort- has caused you to depart from the truth.

I do not care whether my beliefs is very prevalent among many Protestant churches today or not. My beliefs are formed from my study of the Word and my wide reading just as you did. I in contrast have not apostasized! LOL I hold to a a pre-trib rapture / futurism end time scenario as you call it because I believe that is what the Bible teaches, and not what mamma taught me or the pastor of the local church etc

I have read church History and all about the Protestant Reformation
Though I find the writings of John Nelson Darby generally hard to read because of the English, his teaxchings and that of the Plymouth Brethren and their writers like Grant , Kelly, Ironside ad Arthur Pink are in my opinion all in the top drawer Sir!
So too are the notes in the margins of Scofield Reference Bible. The Moody Bible Institute and the Dallas Theological Seminary have in general produced great teachers and sound expositors of the Word, including J Vernon McGee, and Hal Hal Lindsey is a joy to listen to as he relates the current world affairs to the Biblical passages that relate to the doctrine of the Second Coming of Christ! At least he knows which dispensation to place the chapters from Ezekiel 35-39!

How can you tell someone that they have fallen for some type of interpretation when very often in your treatise above you routinely quote scriptures out of their context and seek to use them dishonestly to prove your points? How?

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Georgie Porgie

May 28, 2009 at 8:33 pm

@ JJ
Re
RAPTURE DECEPTION – PROOF #1
2 Pet 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

Now listen to your nonsense ! You write

Here we see the Word of God declaring the day of the Lord will not only come unexpectedly, it will come with a GREAT NOISE! Does that sound like a secret? How is it possible to hide the fact that the earth, it’s elements, and all the “works” of man upon the earth are burned up on that day? Even if millions of Christians vanish into thin air as some preach, the convulsing and burning planet as well as the great noise all this is going to make will no doubt enlighten the wicked that something out of this world is happening, wouldn’t you think? How do you destroy the earth and all it’s cities without the wicked knowing it?

THE ANSWER IS SIMPLE
1-There are two phases to the second coming ;whether you agree or not the WORD SAYS SO .
2- The day of the Lord is executed over a period of at least 1007 years fro a right division of ALL the Scriptures involved according to the rules of exegesis and interpretation given by Peter himself in 2 Peter 1:20 where he writes Knowing this first, that NO prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
This means that when you want to correctly interpret a verse you need to examine what the other scriptures on the SAME issue say, or else you will be contradicting yourself! Many folk are unaware or disobey Peter’s advice in this verse, muddy up the waters, and then have people saying that the Bible contradicts itself.
3- Peter in this single verse [ as is common in much of prophecy ( e.g compare Isaiah 61:1-2a with Luke 4:18-19)] points to an event at the BEGINING of the day of the Lord and an event at the END of the day of the Lord.

The day of the Lord will COME or COMMENCE as a thief in the night. The Lord will come silently swiftly and silently and sieze away the saints just as a thief operates. The phrase “as a thief in the night “ is called in English and Hermeneutics A SIMILE!

The day of the Lord (which is a time period and not a day as can be seen by rightly dividing all the references to this concept in both OT & NT) will COME TO AND END
After Armageddon when it is predicted that “the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

You then misinterpret 2 Pet 3:11-14
2 Pet 3:11-14 “Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.”

Verses 11 & 12 are an admonition to believers to live holy and godly lives in anticipation of the day of the Lord. If Peter did not articulate exactly what is meant from a consideration of all the scriptures on the matter, don’t think he did not know what he was saying.

This passage like the one above DOES NOT place the Lord’s arrival and the Earth’s destruction at the exact same time. You are deliberately dishonestly leaving out the concept of the rapture for which the proof texts are I Thess 4:13-18 & 1 Cor 15:51-57
How could the events described in these passages occur on the same “day” as the “day” of the hullabolu of the destruction or dissolution of the heavens with fervent heat? THINK MAN THINK!

If contemporary believers are not to look for an initial secret parousia followed by a great glorious epiphanea what does Titus 2:13 mean? If there is no dividing of events, no two phases, but ONE day and One event, why does one scripture says that the Lord will meet the saints in the air, and another says that he will come down to the Mount of Olives. Why does the scripture talk abut two different resurrections?
Re RAPTURE DECEPTION – PROOF #2
Luke 17:22 -27 “And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.”

Here you dishonestly merging two different illustrations used by the Lord.
When the flood came unexpectedly, the folk in Noah’s day were eating and drinking and marrying. In other words they were going about the normal round of daily activities; as there is nothing at all wrong with either eating and drinking or marrying. Those who were in the ark were prepared for his coming because they had accepted God’s invitation to the ark (a type of picture of salvation by grace through faith in Christ) and shut up in the ark and looking for his coming. When Jesus comes at the rapture those who are saved will be distinguished only because they have God’s invitation of salvation by grace through faith in Christ and are watching and waiting for his return, because when Jesus comes again , they too will be, and are now yet eating and drinking and marrying – essentially they will be going about the normal round of daily activities ; as there is nothing at all wrong with either eating and drinking or marrying.

Note that in none of the proof texts for the rapture there are no references to lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven, because all the fireworks will occur at Armagededon and in the judgement oif the earth that form part of the day of the Lord or the period or dispensation referred to as the second coming of Christ..

RAPTURE DECEPTION – PROOF #3
Luke 17:28,29 “Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. ”

Your argument here though logical is unsound because it DOES not take into consideration the truths of all the other scriptures on the matter.

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Pat

May 28, 2009 at 9:17 pm

See what I mean. Even you christians, among yourselves, cant agree on anything. Imagine that, and you are reading and quoting from the same story book. Know what, you are both RIGHT. End of dissention.

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Hopi

May 28, 2009 at 9:29 pm

@GP…..”I believe that all these things will be so common and so well accepted, that when the people of the world are invited to take the mark, they will find it extremely easy to acquiesce.”
Seeing that you already have so many credit cards will you too be deceived (if you’re not already) into accepting that mark since you do not know what it will be? Weren’t you admonished to live in this world and not be a part of this world i.e the satanic system of debt and usury?
BTW…Have you heard of Bluebeam?

@Carlos……”3. The wonder of its age – most ancient of all books.” This one almost slip thru the covers. Talk about hog puke! The Most Ancient of what? You crazie? Zoe you are either IGNORANT or A DAMN LIAR or A DAMN IGNORANT LIAR! Take your pick sweetie.

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Georgie Porgie

May 28, 2009 at 9:47 pm

Pat

Re See what I mean. Even you christians, among yourselves, cant agree on anything. Imagine that, and you are reading and quoting from the same story book. Know what, you are both RIGHT. End of dissention.
———————————————

And your point is?
Do doctors, lawyers or engineers etc agree on everything? Eh?

How can any one in a debate with polar views be both right?Eh?

Surely your post is a non sequitur! It does not follow ( sequitur from the Latin semin deponent verb sequor — sequi- secutus sum) to follow

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Georgie Porgie

May 28, 2009 at 9:54 pm

@ Hopi

Re Seeing that you already have so many credit cards will you too be deceived (if you’re not already) into accepting that mark since you do not know what it will be?

NO Hopi. I may have credit cards but these are not the mark, and I am not deceived because I know the truth, and I WONT BE around to take the mark according to clear Bible teaching

Weren’t you admonished to live in this world and not be a part of this world i.e the satanic system of debt and usury? No Hopi I have not got caught up in the cosmos diabolicus. My cards are used more as debit cards rather than credit cards. I abhor paying interest!

Hopi you have obviously been exposed to the Word, but you are an apostate! You should have a good re-read of 2 Peter 2 & Jude 3-19

BTW…Have you heard of Bluebeam? NO I have not. Illumine me.

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Zoe

May 28, 2009 at 10:03 pm

JJ, Where do you stand re Israel, the Jews and the NT Church?

More specifically, do you believe that the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Abrahamic Covenant were forfieted, abrogated, and then transfered to the NT Church?

In answer to my question: “Why did Jesus abserve the Sabbath?”

Your answer: “Because He was perfectly obedient.”

Yes, Jesus was perfectly obedient; but, why don’t you deal with the fact, that in His perfect obedience, He completely ‘FULFILLED’ ‘…but to FULFILL…(Matt. 5:17), and also, as recorded in John 19: 28-30, ‘…knowing that ALL THINGS had been ACCOMPLISHED, in order that Scripture might be FULFILLED.”

The significance of the word FULFILL, from the Gk, ‘Pleroo’ to fully accomplish, complete’ cannot, and must not be overlooked, as it goes to the very ‘heart’ of this Sabbath controversy.

What Did Jesus Say About ‘The Law’ and Sabbath Observance?

Did Jesus have anything to say, by way of instruction, teaching, regarding ‘Keeping the Sabbath? Keeping ‘The Ten Commandments? And if so, how did He express it?

Did He in any way summarize the ‘Ten Commandments’ ‘The Law’ bearing in mind, that Jesus never made any distinction between Ceremonial and Moral Law, for when He said Law, it encompassed ‘All the Law and the Prophets.”

The function of ‘The Law’ including the ‘Ten Commandments’ in the Old Testament, is clearly contrasted in the New Testament with the ‘principle’ of, or the ‘Spirit’ of love, as this is the very essence of the New Testament dispensation of Grace, that is, the imperative of love.

Let’s see how Jesus answered the probing Pharisaical Lawyer, in Matthew 22: 34-40.

“But when the Pharisees had heard that He had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. Then one of them, which is a lawyer, asked Him a question, tempting Him, and saying.”

“Master, which is THE GREAT COMMANDMENT IN THE LAW.”

Take careful note of Jesus’ response to this most serious, profound, and relevant question:

“Jesus said unto him, ‘Thou shalt love The Lord Thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.”

“This is the FIRST and great Commandment.”

“And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”

Jesus was the first person to combine these two text from Deuternomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18.

Having identified THE TWO GREAT COMMANDMENTS, Jesus now concludes by summarizing ALL the Law and its requirements, let us hear HIM, not what some denomination says, always mindful, “Add thou NOT unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” (Prov. 30:6).

Jesus raps it up by saying:

“On these TWO COMMANDMENTS hang (How much of the Law 99%, NO!) ALL THE LAW and THE PROPHETS.” ( Matt: 24: 34-30). emphasis added.

What does the Apostle Paul, the most gifted and anointed Apostle of them all, himself, a strict ‘Law Abiding’ law keeping Pharisee prior to his conversion on the Damascus road, have to say on this matter in Romans 13: 8-10.

“Owe no man anything, but to LOVE one another. For he that loveth another hath FULFILLED THE LAW.” (v.8).

How do we know that just like Jesus, Paul is referring to the ‘Ten Commandments’ when he says ‘The Law’? Let us be honest and hear!

“For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet: (v.9).

Notice, in identifying FIVE of the Ten Commandments, at NO time does Paul mention the ‘Sabbath’ but simply alludes to the other FIVE Commandments by saying:

“And if there be any OTHER COMMANDMENTS, (the other five, Sabbath included) it is brieftly comprehended (summarized) in this saying, namely, Thou shalt LOVE thy neighbour as thyself. (v.9b).

Now, JJ, do you think that Jesus and Paul, would deal with such vitally important matters, such as, how DOES ONE KEEP, and FULFILL ‘The Law’ specifically, the ‘Ten Commandments’ and NOT specifically identify and point out the ‘Sabbath’ the fourth Commandment, if this were necessary for ‘The New Testament Church’ to observe; but RATHER, both Jesus and Paul, MAKE NO MENTION OF IT AT ALL!!!

Just like Jesus, Paul then concludes by saying:

“Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: Therefore, LOVE is THE FULFILLING of THE LAW.” ( v.10).

The salient and imperative point that Jesus and Paul stresses, is this, that keeping the Ten Commandments has absolutely NOTHING to do with any one particular DAY, i.e., the Sabbath, why? Because LOVING GOD, and your neighbour as yourself, is something that we should do ALL THE TIME, every single day of the week, Monday through Sunday, ALL SEVEN DAYS, hence, why Jesus nor Paul said anything about Sabbath observance, in fulfilling the Law. WHY?

“For ALL THE LAW is FULFILLED in one word, Thou shalt Love thy neighbour as thyself.” ( Gal. 5:14).

The Gk word ‘pleroo’ rendered ‘fulfill’ the verb is in the ‘perfect tense’ and the translation could read, “The whole law stands fully obeyed.”

As the late Dr. Walter Martin, one of the most gifted Apologists/Polemicists of the twentieth century, now with the Lord in conscious eternal bliss, once wrote, with whom I wholeheartedly concur:

“The Christian stand under ‘the perfect law of liberty’ which enables him to ‘fulfill’ the righteousness of the ‘Law’ by the imperative of love.”

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Not Saved

May 28, 2009 at 10:35 pm

“Do doctors, lawyers or engineers etc agree on everything? Eh?”

You are right Georgie, they most certainly do not agree on everything.

But then again they dont have the holy spirit to guide them, do they?

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Not Saved

May 28, 2009 at 10:37 pm

whereas of course, YOU do…….

or do you indeed ??

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Georgie Porgie

May 29, 2009 at 9:16 am

@ Not Saved
Whereas he is there to guide, he cant guide those who wont be guided. can he?
I am glad that you found a little place to make one of your little jabs, though. LOL

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JJ

May 29, 2009 at 9:58 am

Dear Zoe,

A few days ago you wrote,

QUOTE: “Think not that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to FULFILL. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until ALL is acomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt. 5:17-19). emphasis added.
Now, in John we read:
“After this, Jesus, knowing that ALL THINGS had been ACCOMPLISHED, in order that Scripture might be FULFILLED, said, ‘I am thirsty.” (John 19:28-30).
This verse is extremely important to a correct understanding of Matthew 5: 17-19. For, it is here that we find that Jesus had already ‘accomplished’ all but one of the prophecies regarding His life and death of the Messiah. One thing, however still remained to be ‘fulfilled’ so Jesus said, ‘I thirst.’”

Please correct me if I’ve misunderstood your reasoning here but you seem to be saying that ALL the Law and ALL the Prophets (your own emphasis) was accomplished at the cross.

So, an obvious question that immediately comes to mind is, HOW ARE ALL THE OT SCRIPTURES CONCERNING THE SECOND COMING, FULFILLED 2000 YEARS AGO AT GOLGOTHA?

You see my friend, by putting emphasis on certain words, you have ignored others. Look at the first passage again – “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is acomplished.” Did heaven and earth pass away at Calvary?

If you believe that Jesus accomplished ALL THINGS in John 19:28-30, then why are you and I still here in this sin-ridden world? Why is there still sin and misery and disease and death?

Truth is, the word “all” has an absolute sense and also a relative one!

Christ used this word ‘all’ in the relative sense in the statement, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.” (John 12:32) Here the “all men” refers only to those who look to Him by faith, right?

I’ll quote a few more examples:

“And so ALL Israel shall be saved.” Rom 11:26 (Except those who will not be saved.)

“[He] told me ALL that ever I did.” John 4:39 (Except what He did not tell.)

“For ALL seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ’s.” Php 2:21 (Except those who, like Timothy, seek the things of Jesus Christ.)

“These ALL died in faith.” Heb 11:13 (Except Enoch, who was translated.)

“When He saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.” 1 Corinthians 15:27

Your problem is that you’ve mis-applied what was indeed finished at Christ’s first advent.

Study again Zoe.

Once again, do you honestly admit that all the writings of the law and of the prophets are only fulfilled in Christ’s death on the cross and nowhere else?? Because if you do, then that’s utter nonsense!

Some prophecies were clearly fulfilled when Christ was born. Others were clearly fulfilled at His anointing. Still others were clearly fulfilled at His death and resurrection. LIKEWISE, OTHERS ARE CLEARLY YET TO BE FULFILLED!

Same thing with the law.

Some portions of the law clearly typify Christ’s death. Others clearly point to His resurrection. Still others find their antitypical fulfilment in Christ’s High Priesthood.

MY POINT IS THAT THINGS ARE FULFILLED IN THEIR ORDER! IN THEIR ORDER! NOT ALL AT ONCE!

Read again: “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is acomplished.”

In other words Christ is affirming the Scriptures. He’s saying BELIEVE IN THE WORD OF GOD because they ARE TRUE and they WILL be fulfilled. Not one letter will fail! He didn’t come against the OT writings!

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JJ

May 29, 2009 at 9:59 am

QUOTE: “When we let Scripture interpret Scripture, as a sound principle in Biblical hermeneutics, the meaning of this passage becomes evident. Notice how it fits perfectly into the context. In the book of Matthew we find this passage coming soon after Jesus gave His “blessings” on the mount. It comes just before the six times He says. “You have heard…BUT I say unto you.” In the context it is obvious and evident that Jesus is taking authority to Himself greater than that of old covenant law.”

It is “obvious and evident” only if you’ve already set you mind on believing that the law is no longer binding after the cross.

Zoe, there are two DIFFERENT laws:

1) The first one is commonly called the 10 Commandments or Decalogue. The principles of the 10 Commandments (the spirit of the law) have existed from eternity past and will exist forever. This is the Law of God and it cannot change. This is the Law which defines sin.

However, after 400 years of bondage in Egypt, the people of God had forgotten the principles of the Law of God, so God SPOKE to them in human words and terms. He gave the 10 Commandments. He WROTE them out in a way they’d understand. However the Israelites (then and now) took those words BY THE LETTER, forgetting the spiritual principles behind each precept. Therefore Christ came to SET FORTH THE TRUE MEANING OF THE LAW. Christ came to “magnify the law and make it honourable.” Isaiah 42:21

How did Christ magnify the law?

Look at the very examples you were thinking about when you quoted parts of the sermon on the mount:

Matt 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said …Thou shalt not kill; But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment …

Matt 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said … Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery …

ETC ETC

James writes in 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

THE POINT IS: THE LAW IS NOT JUST BINDING BY THE LETTER BUT WE MUST KEEP THE VERY SPIRIT OF THE LAW.

Think about this one. Human laws can only condemn those who have broken them in action. But the Law of God condemns even the wrong thought – this is how we must understand the Law. For those of you who don’t realize this, then read again: He came to MAGNIFY and MAKE HONOURABLE His Law!

Ps 119:96 “Thy commandment is exceeding broad.”

This Law was never done away with at the cross. Why not? Because the 10 Commandments POINT OUT SIN to us. When we see our sin, we realize we are in need of a Saviour from sin. If Jesus “fulfilled” the 10 Commandments at Calvary by making it void, then there hasn’t been a sinner since 31 A.D. Then no one living after the cross has a need for a Saviour!

Rom 4:15 says, “for where no law is, there is no transgression.” But since ALL have sinned, then there still MUST BE the Law!

THE FACT THAT JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS FOR OUR SINS IS THE VERY STRONGEST TESTIMONY THAT THE LAW IS STILL BINDING, THAT IT IS FOREVER PERPETUAL! BECAUSE IF GOD COULD HAVE CHANGED HIS LAW, THEN WHY ON EARTH DID CHRIST HAVE TO DIE!

2) The second law is commonly known as the Ceremonial Law or Mosaic Law. This is the law of TYPES and SHADOWS which WERE INDEED FULFILLED AT THE CROSS.

Let me make this very plain and simple for you to understand. The first Law (the 10 Commandments) DEFINE SIN. The second law (this ceremonial one) DEFINES HOW SIN IS DEALT WITH – it defines the SACRIFICE and ATONEMENT for sin! The death of Christ, the Lamb of God on the cross fulfilled the ceremonial types when He said “It is finished.”

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JJ

May 29, 2009 at 9:59 am

You wrote,

QUOTE: “It would be very easy for His listeners to conclude that He was completely doing away with the binding nature of the old covenant.”

Read the sermon Christ gave again. For example, He says…

Matt 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said …Thou shalt not kill; But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment …

Matt 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said … Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery …

ETC ETC

Do you really think that from hearing these words, “His listeners [would easily] conclude that He was completely doing away with the binding nature of the old covenant”????? What gives you the idea that Christ’s audience may be thinking, “hhmmmm, sounds like our Teacher is about to make the law less binding! Yay!”

QUOTE: “It would be very easy for His listeners to conclude that He was completely doing away with the binding nature of the old covenant. This He will do, BUT, not before He completely FULFILLS the prophesies, types and shadows which pointed forward to His work as Messiah and Saviour of the world which are recorded in the law. Therefore, the law must continue UNTIL He has ACCOMPLISHED eveerything. This did in fact happen, as John said, at the death of Jesus.”

Read what I wrote above – it sufficiently exposes your error here.

QUOTE: “Now, if one were to conclude that Jesus was teaching the continuing of the law in this passage, the Christian would immediately be faced with a dilemma. For Scripture expressly states that ‘not one thing, not even the smallest punctuation mark, is to be removed from the law. Thus, if the Christian (Sabbatarian) is going to use this text to prove the perpetuity of the old covenant law, he must also use it to prove the binding nature of ALL old covenant law.”

Once again, you misunderstand the law and the covenants. There is One Lawgiver (James 4:12) and One Law – not two! There isn’t a Law of God and a Law of Christ. Christ kept His Father’s Law! He did nothing of His own but the will of the Father – John 5:30, 15:10

Moreover, God never changed His Law because there was nothing wrong with it! But “FINDING FAULT WITH THEM (with the people, NOT with the Law), Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.” Heb 8:8-10

God will put His LAW (the same law as before because there’s nothing wrong with the Law – “The Law is PERFECT” – Psalm 19:7) in His people through faith in Christ.

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JJ

May 29, 2009 at 10:00 am

QUOTE: “In the writing to the Galatians, Paul warned his readers that tey could NOT take only part of the law and leave the rest. Hear Paul, and man versed in the Law, second only to Jesus.
“I testify again to every man who received circumcision, that he is UNDER OBLIGATION to KEEP the WHOLE LAW.” (Gal 5:3)”

Not quite so hasty, my friend. Stick a little more closely to the text. Notice the wording in the greek: “For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a DEBTOR (opheiletēs) to do the whole law.” You see, the bad thing is not the law, nor the doing of the law, but being a debtor to the law! There’s a vast difference!!

It’s a good thing to have food to eat and clothes to wear, but it is a sorrowful thing to be in debt
for these necessary things. Sadder yet is it to be in debt for them and yet to lack them! A debtor is one who owes something. He who is in debt to the law owes what the law demands; namely, RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore whoever is in debt to the law is under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them.”
Gal 3:10. So to attempt to get righteousness by any other means than by faith in Christ is to incur the curse of eternal debt. He is eternally in debt, for he has NOTHING to pay with! Yet the fact that he is in debt to the law – debtor to do the whole law – shows that he ought to do it all. How shall he do it? “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” John
6:29. The only way to do it is to cease trusting in self and receive and confess Christ in his flesh, and then the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in him because he will not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

QUOTE: “Circumcision, Sabbath keeping, etc, etc, was all part of what Jesus DID, in order to completely FULFILL the Law and the Prophets, perfectly, so that the New Testament Church is not required to keep the Sabbath, as any requirement, in order not to take the so-called Mark of the Beast, ‘Sunday’ worship, as our Sabbatarian friends have insisted.”

Does the fact that Christ didn’t kill anybody also mean that He completely fulfilled the sixth commandment and therefore we are now allowed to kill each other? If not, then why any different with the fourth commandment. Who gave you the right to extract out the Sabbath commandment?

QUOTE: “A vitally important word as Jesus used in Matthew 5_ 17-19, is to ‘FULFILL.’
As we can only understand “I did not come to abolish” contrasted with ‘But to FULFILL’ which in fact He did do, thereby, rendering any and all Old Testament legal law requirement, as FINALLY, and completely fulfiled by The Lord Jesus Christ, once and for all.
And this is made abundantly clear by the meaning of the Greek word, that the Holy Spirit used in recording God’s Word in the NT.
Fulfill is from the Gk ‘pleroo’ meaning, ‘Full, to make full, fill, to fulfill, bring to a full end, accomplish, complete. By implication, to fill out, complete, make perfect, accomplish and end. ( Matt 5:17; Phil 2:2; 2 Thess 1:1). In the passive, to be made full, complete (Luke 22:16; John 3:29; 15:11; 16:24; 17:3; 2 Cor. 10:6; I John 1:4; 2 John 1:12; Rev. 3:2). Of persons (Col 4:12).”

Sounds good to me! Jesus came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill. Like you say, ‘to abolish’ is not ‘to fulfill’ and ‘to fulfill’ is not ‘to abolish.’

QUOTE: “The above is just scratching the surface of this subject matter.”

I feel sad that you’ve only scratched the surface. Next time, dig deeper to uncover the real treasure.

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JJ

May 29, 2009 at 10:43 am

More next week.

God bless.

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Hog Squeal

May 29, 2009 at 1:20 pm

I wonder what Pastor Holford, Pastor Durant (the deputy chairman at the NAB) the Rev. at Christ Church Parish Church (the new QEH Chairman) Lucille Baird and others – have to say about Barbados’ economic climate and the fact that so many are not suffering because they listened to them and voted for the DLP.

Come on, break your silence this Sunday. What happen: ” kat goyah towns.”

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Hog Squeal

May 29, 2009 at 1:23 pm

O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason.

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Zoe

May 29, 2009 at 1:59 pm

JJ, I never said that the Ten Commandments are no longer binding, for Yes, “The Law is perfect.” (Psa. 19:7)

The question is not whether the 10 Commandments are still God’s Holy Law; but, according to the New Testament, as specifically stated by Jesus and Paul, HOW they are KEPT in the spirit of the New Covenant.

In more than one place, the New Testament comments unfavourably upon the practice of any type of leglistic day keeping. In fact, from the ascension of Christ on, the New Testament and early church observed the first day of the week or the Lord’s Day (Rev. 1:10).

Besides the passages which contrast the Lord’s Day with the Sabbath, the Apostle Paul, Hebrew of Hebrews and Pharisee of Pharisees, the outstanding New Testament authority, apart from the Lord, on the Law of Moses, declared that the Sabbath as ‘the law’ was FULFILLED at the cross, and was not binding upon the Christian ( Colossians 2: 16, 17).

To narrow the issue down to simple analysis, let us review the major New Testament texts, which in context and in the light of syntactical analysis refute the Sabbatarian concept, and substantiate the historic position of the Christian Church, since the days of the Apostles and the Fathers.

A. Colossians 2: 13-17.

Of all the statements in the New Testament, these verses most strongly refute the Sabbatarian claim for observance of the Jewish Sabbath. Let us listen to the inspired counsel of Paul, not only the greatest of the apostles, but a Pharisee whose passion for fulfilling the law outdoes that of the most zealous Sabbartarians.

“And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses; having canceled the bond which stood against us with its LEGAL demands; this He set aside, nailing them to the cross…Therefore let NO one pass judgment on you in question of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come: but the substance belongs to Christ ( Col. 2: 13-17).

This translation, one of the best from the Greek text today, contains tremendously important teaching.

First, we who were dead have been made alive in Christ, and have been forgiven all trespasses and sins. We are free from the condemnation of the Law in ALL its aspects, because Christ took our condemnation on the cross.

“Therefore” the Apostle Paul boldly declares, “let no one pass judgment on you in question of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or A SABBATH. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.”

In the face of this clear teaching, Sabbatarians revert to their DUAL-LAW theory, and argue that Paul is referring only to observance of the Jewish ceremonial law, not to the Sabbath which, they insist, is a moral precept because it is one of the Ten Commandments. Any honest, thorough study, clearly reveal that the Ten Commandments are but a fragment of the moral law encompassed by the commandment, “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” ( Lev. 19:18).

Sabbatarians, however overlook the mass of contradictory evidence and appeal to certain commentators who do not analyze the use of the word “sabbath,” or exegete the New Testament passages where the word occurs. But, if a commentator’s opinion is not in accord with sound exegesis, it is only and ‘opinion’ and unfortunately, a number of well known commentator’s make no grammatical or textual analysis of the second chapter of Colossians.

With regard to this passage, Sabbatarians maintain that since the word in Colossians 2:16 (sabbaton) is in the plural, it means the ceremonial Sabbaths, not the weekly Sabbath, which they contend is still in effect. They argument is that Colossains 2:16, 17 refers to sabbaths and feast days which were shadows of things to come, and thus part of the ceremonial laws, but that the seventh-day Sabbath is not a shadow of redemption, but a memorial of creation and part of the moral law

The leading modern translations, following the best New Testament scholars, render Colossains 2:16 as “a sabbath” or “a sabbath day” not “sabbath days” as in the KJV version.. Their reason for doing this is well stated by E.W. Vine who wrote:

“Sabbaton or sabbata, the latter the plural form, was transliterated from the Aramaic word which was mistaken for a plural; hence the singular sabbaton was formed from it…In the epistles the only direct mention are in Colossains 2:16 “a sabbath day” (RV), which rightly has the singular…where it is listed among the things that were “a shadow of things to come” ; i.e., of the age introduced at Pentecost and in Hebrews 4: 4-11 where the perpetual ‘sabbatismos’ is appointed for believers…For the first three centuries of the Christian era the ‘first’ day of the week was never confounded with the Sabbath; the confusion of the Jewish and christian institutions was due to declension from apostolic teaching.”

Supplementing Dr. Vine’s statement is the comment of M. R. Vincent who delcared:

“Sabbath days (sabbaton), the weekly festivals revised correctly as ‘day’ the plural being used for the singular, See Luke 4:31 and Acts 20:7. the plural is only ONCE used in the New Tesatament of more than a single day ( Acts 17:2). In the Old Testament, the same enumeration of sacred seasons occurs in I Chron 23:31; II Chron 2:4; 31: 3; Ezek 45: 17; Hosea 2:11.

As Vincent points out, the revisers’ rendering of ‘sabbaton’ in the singular accords with the use of the word throughout the New Testament. However, it is significant that in 59 of 60 occurrances in the New Testament, Sabbatarians affirm that they refer to the ‘weekly’ Sabbath; BUT, in the 6oth occurrance they maintain it does NOT, although all grammatical authorities contradict them.

But, it is interesting to note that the very ‘ordinances’ referred to in Colossains 2: 16,17, that the ‘Sabbath’ is grouped with burnt offerings and new moons (Numbers 28: 1-15), fulfilled in the substance (soma) of the cross of Christ, how then, can Sabbatarians retain the Sabbath?

The Sabbath was the Seal of The Mosaic Covenant, with (who?) ‘The Children of Israel’ NOT the NT Church!

“And the Lord spoke unto Moses saying, Speak thou also unto THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, (not the church) saying, Verily, my Sabbaths Ye (Israel) shall keep: for it is a SIGN between (WHO?) ME and YOU (Israel) throughout your generations” (Exo. 31: 13) emphasis added.

Again in verse 16 we read:

“Wherefore THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL (not the NT Chruch) shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throught THEIR Generations…”

“It is a SIGN between (Who?) Me (God) and (Who?) THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL” (v.17)

“More over also, I gave them (Israel) my Sabbaths, to be a sign between (Who?) Me (God) and (Who?) THEM (Israel) that they (Israel) might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them (Israel). (Eze 20: 12).

The antecedent error of ‘Sabbatarianism’ is believing that Israel (the Jews) from the Old Testament, has no future, and that the ‘Church’ is now ‘Spiritural Israel’ receiving the promises made to them in the Abrahamic covenant.

Regarding those who confuse ‘Israel’ with the ‘Church’ Dr. Seiss correctly asserts:

“There is no vice or device of sacred hermeneutics which so beclouds the Scriptures, and so unsettles the faith of men, as this attempt to read Church for Israel and Christian peoples for the Jewish Tribes.”

JJ, you can twist, convolute, take entirely out of centext, verses from the OT, to support your erroneous contention of Sabbath keeping imperative for the NT Church, but it won’t work.

Yes, absolutely, yes, God’s Holy Ten Commandments are still in effect, BUT, they are ALL kept, NOT by the legalistic observance of the Sabbath, BUT, as Jesus and Paul so clearly and emphatically stated.

“On these TWO COMMANDMENTS HAND (How much of the Law) ALL THE LAW and THE PROPHETS ( Matt. 24: 34-40).

“Owe no man anything, but to LOVE one another: for he that loveth another hath (What?) FULFILLED THE LAW” (Rom 13: 8).

“For (How much?) ALL the Law IS FULFILLED in ONE word, even this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” (Gal. 5:14).

The verb, JJ, is in the perfect tense, and the translation could read:

“The WHOLE LAW, the Ten Commands stands FULLY obeyed” when we do as Jesus and Paul stated!!

JJ, You have a lot to unlearn, it really is sad, that you are so blinded to this reality.

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Zoe

May 29, 2009 at 7:13 pm

Back to JJ, and the Sabbath, following on from my earlier post, we can clearly see, if one his linguistically and grammatically honest, that if Sabbatarians insist that Colossains 2:16 refers only to ceremonial sabbaths, they run against the use of the word for weekly sabbaths in the New Testament; and as Dean Alford points out, if “Sabbaths” be allowed, it must include ALL sabbaths, weekly, monthly or yearly. On the other hand, if Sabbatarians admit the correction of the revisers and render Colossains 2:16 ‘a sabbath day’ its use in the New Testament still refers almost exclusively (see Acts 17:2) to the weekly sabbath, which sabbatarians insist is permanent, although Paul deliberately classes it with the ordinances which Jesus by His death nailed to the cross! (Col 2:14).

Dr. J.B. Lightfoot, an acknowledged authority on New Testament Greek, makes this interesting observation:

“The word ‘sabbata’ is derived from the Aramaic ‘shabbatha’ ( as distinguished from the Hebrew), and accordingly preserves the Aramaic termination of a. Hence it was naturally declined as a plural noun, sabbata, sabaton. The New Testament sabbata is only ONCE used distinctively as more than a single day, and there the plurality of meaning is brought out by the attached numeral ( Acts 17: 2).

It is therefore, obviously apparent, that the use of ‘sabbath’ in the New Testament soundly refutes the sabbatarian contention that in Colossians 2 it means Sabbaths other than the weekly Sabbath of the Decalogue.

Since it is impossible to retain the ‘shadow’ while possessing the ‘substance’ (Col. 2:17), the Jewish Sabbath and the handwritings of ordinances “which was contrary to us” found their complete fulfillment in the Person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

B. Galatians 4: 9-11.

“But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves you want to be once more? You observe days, and months, and seasons, and years! I am afraid I have labored over you in vain.” (RSV).

Here we see Paul’s epistle to the Galatians was primarily a massive theological effort to bloster the young church against the Judaizers who added to the gospel of grace “another” gospel” (1:6), and sought to ‘pervert’ the gospel of Christ (1:7).

Though steeped in Jewish lore and the law of Moses, Paul steadfastly opposed the Judaizers. The entire epistle to the Galatians, is an apologetic against those who would seek to bring the Christians “under the law.” After mentioning the errors into which the Galatian church had fallen, Paul, evidently, with great disgust, remarks;

“You observe days, and months, and seasons, and years! I am afraid I have labored over you in vain” (4: 10,11, RSV).

In the Greek the expression “days, and months, and seasons, and years,” matches both the Septuagint translation of the ordinances in Numbers 28 and 29, of which all Sabbaths are a principle part, and the ordinances mentioned in Colossians 2. Paul was familiar with the Septuagint and quoted it, and the law, including the weekly Sabbaths, was so cherished by the Judaizers of his day, that its legalistic abservance called forth strong words. Sabbatarians, insist that Paul meant ceremonial feasts and yearly Sabbaths, not the weekly Sabbath, but, Paul’s language and the Septuagint translation of Numbers 28 and 29, refute their objections.

It is one thing, JJ, to interpret your way out of a verse when your interpretation is feasible; but, it is quite another, to ignore grammar, context, and comparative textual analysis (hermeneutics) as you Sabbatarians are so known for doing. To substantiate your interpretation of Paul’s statements, you don’t practice exegesis ( taking out of), but eisegesis (reading into) the texts.

Yes, you Sabbatarians believe in Justification by Grace through Faith, in the atoning Death and Resurrection of Christ, BUT, you then invalidate such Grace, by wanting to add ‘Law’ into the process, which essentially cancels grace.

You cannot have it both ways, both/and, that is Law and Grace, as not only is this unscriptural, but downrightly illogical, as Paul says to them.

“Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?…Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint UNTIL faith should be revealed. So that the law was our custodian UNTIL Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are NO longer under a custodian; for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith ( Gal. 4:21; 3: 23-26, RSV).

We must never forget, that “the law” in its larger connotation includes the entire Pentateuch, it is apparent from Paul’s language that one is “under the law” when he sttempts to observe any part of it, because the Christians has been freed from the law. Sabbatarians are for the most part, Christians, saved by grace, BUT, we do not find Scriptural warrant for theit attempt to enjoin the Sabbath upon fellow believers.

As I showed earlier, that the Greek word ‘pleroma’ rendered respectively ‘FULFILLED’ and ‘FULFILLING’ in Romans 13: 8, 10, RSV, appears 90 times in the New Testament, and has the same basic meaning. Clearly and obviously, the Apostle Paul understood this term well, and I am sure that Sabbatarians confess the divine inspiration of the Scriptures, and must, if they want to be intellectually honest, concede that the Holy Spirit guided Paul’s pen.

The Sabbatarians must by necessity, continue to quote from the Decalogue, upon which they rely for perpetual Sabbathkeeping, BUT, as shown earlier, Jesus and Paul in the NT, declare, ” The commandments…are summed up in this sentence.

“You shall love your neighbour as yourself…therefore love is the FULFILLING of the law…He who loves his neighbour has FULFILLED the law” and since he quotes from the Decalogue as part of the law, the fourth commandment IS also FULFILLED, not by rigid observance of a given day, NO! but by loving one’s neighbour as one self.

Since it is impossible in the Christian context to love one’s neighbour at all, apart from loving God as the prerequisite, the issue is clear. The false teaching that love of one’s neighbour does not fulfill all the law of God comes from a failure to realize that our love for God and neighbour stems from God’s initiating act of love in Christ. This law of love is first enunciated in Leviticus 19:18, which our Lord coupled with the commandment to “love the Lord thy God ” (Deut 6:4), and stated that observance of those two commandments FULFILLED “all the law and the prophets.”

As cited earlier, and I will be returning over and over again to these fundamental New Testament texts, as no matter where you go, JJ, from the OT, in seeking to justify your Sabbath keeping, you CANNOT get around the plain, obvious, emphatic, declaration as given in the New Testament, by both Jesus Christ, and Paul:

“The WHOLE LAW is FULFILLED in ONE word, ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself” (Gal. 5:14, RSV), so we resolutely see that Paul’s theology rested upon the imperative of ‘Love.’

While Sabbatarians may seek to escape the obvious implications of Colossains 2: 14-17, and try to explain away Galatians 4: 9-11, in the present passage the Holy Spirit twice declares that love FULFILLS the law, with the context of which it is referred, identifying each time, that the ‘Ten Commandment’s’ are the central focus. Sabbatarians cannot exempt the Sabbath from this context, without destroying the unity of the “Eternal Ten,” hence their delimma!!!

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Pat

May 29, 2009 at 9:49 pm

@ GP

I was referring to you and Zoe. You are both preachers who profess to be blessed by the Word. You both claim to have an understanding of the Word that we dont. You both claim to get this understanding from the Holy Spirit, yet you seldom sing from the same song sheet. Sumptin wong.

Notice I capitalized out of respect for you GP. hahaha.

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Georgie Porgie

May 29, 2009 at 10:19 pm

That is not at all true Pat.

Whereas I have never met Zoe, I have often on the varius threads complemented him for his posts , by which he exhibits that he is well read (from the authors he quotes) and because he rightly divides the Word of truth.

Our posts are actually very complementary and not at all contradictory. It semms that you are mixing us up with JJ ( who is clearly Adventist), as is very clear from his misunderstanding of the fact that Christ fulfilled i.e completed the requirements of the Law.

If you read several good commentaries on the same chapter, you will notice that each bring out different truths, without wrongly dividing the Word of truth.

I am currently doing a study on Mark 7 and am enthralled by the nuggests of truth that Constable, Stedman & McGee extract from the same text, even though they follow the same story line.

One gives a great outline of the passage (essential for opening up the passage), another reveals information about special Greek words used only by this author, and the passge, and thier significance; yet another relates the truths of the passage to the related prophesy about the pasage and the collateral passage in Mathew.

So I get to learn from each of them and get the challenge of merging three viewpoints in my notes.

I dont think that they are not singing from the same hymn sheet. Its just that the Spirit has impressed different truths on each of them or/and each one uses his own emphasis or style of exegesis,

Just goes to show that the Word is always fresh to those who love it.

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Hopi

May 30, 2009 at 7:53 am

@GP……..It was straight up lies, deceit and hypocrisy in christianity that put me on the road to apostasy.

Those debit cards ain’t gonna save you, because you are still caught up in the system.

As for Bluebeam, that’s the weapon associated with the take down TWA 800 a few years ago and that’s the same weapon that will beam all your saviours across the sky i.e. Jesus Christ, Krishna, Buddha, Allah…….”Oh what a weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth!”

Boy, this christianity thing is so damn good that it even has the CPU brainwashed to the point that if I type the word ‘christianity’ with lowercase ‘c’ it is ‘red-lined’ telling me that I have to pay homage with an uppercase ‘C’ Talk about effective. You gotta love it GP!

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Hopi

May 30, 2009 at 9:14 am

@GP…….tell me why in Lev 21 :16-23 is there so much discrimination esp. those with flat noses?

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Georgie Porgie

May 30, 2009 at 11:25 am

To Pat & any who might be interested.

Pat, you will recall that in my rebuttal of your opinion that Zoe and I were not singing on the same hymn sheet. I pointed out that this need not be so if we were complimentary.

Permit me to indicate this by posting the writings of three beloved expositors on the SAME passage concerning Jesus’ exorcism of a Phoenician girl Mark 7:24-30 (cf. Matt. 15:21-28)

Here is the text under consideration.
JESUS HEALS THE SYROPHOENICIAN WOMAN’S DAUGHTER

And from there he arose and went away to the region of Tyre and Sidon. And he entered a house, and would not have any one know it; yet he could not be hid. But immediately a woman, whose little daughter was possessed by an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell down at his feet. Now the woman was a Greek, a Syrophoenician by birth. And she begged him to cast the demon out of her daughter. And he said to her, “Let the children first be fed, for it is not right to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” [Here he used a diminutive, a term which means “pets”, not scruffy street dogs.] But she answered him, “Yes, Lord; yet even the dogs [pets] under the table eat the children’s crumbs. ” And he said to her, “For this saying you may go your way; the demon has left your daughter.” And she went home, and found the child lying in bed, and the demon gone. (Mark 7:24-30 RSV)

In his Thru The Bible in five Years notes
J VERNON McGEE comment thus

We have had this incident before. You will recall that our Lord stepped out of His own land and met this woman who was a Greek and a citizen of Tyre. She came to Jesus in faith. And the word daughter here is the diminutive form which means she was just a little girl. At first, our Lord’s treatment of her may appear brutal, but you will remember that when we studied this in the Gospel of Matthew, we showed the dispensational interpretation which is actually the revelation of a tremendous truth. And I think here something else tremendous is also revealed and that is the accuracy of the four Gospels. This woman is an outstanding example of faith in one who lives outside His land. And our Lord answered her petition. One wonders whether He came to that area for the specific purpose of answering the faith of this woman.

To clarify the above, here are his notes on the same incident from his comments on Mathew’s account of the same incident.

THEN JESUS WENT THENCE, AND DEPARTED INTO THE COASTS OF TYRE AND SIDON [MATT. 15:21].

Now our Lord leaves the land of Israel for the first time during His public ministry. This is interesting because He came to Israel as her King. When He sent His disciples out, He instructed them to go into the cities of Israel but not beyond her boundaries. Then the Lord was rejected by Israel, and there arose conflict. The breaking point between Jesus and the religious rulers came only a few verses ago.

What happens? Jesus Himself steps over the boundaries of Israel and lays down another great principle. He will now receive the Gentiles. His invitation is, “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest (lit., ”rest you“)” (Matt. 11:28).

And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us [Matt 15:22–23].

The Syrophoenician woman was a mixture of several races and a true Gentile (see Mark 7:26 for her nationality). She had no claim on Jesus as the Son of David, and when she addressed Him as such, He answered her not a word.

The disciples said, “Send her away, for she crieth after us.” She was causing a disturbance and probably a little embarrassment.

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel [Matt 15:24].

This seems to be a harsh statement, but it was a statement of fact. Jesus was offering Himself first as the fulfillment of all the prophecies concerning the coming of the King in David’s line. He was forcing this gentile woman to recognize that fact.

Jesus came as King of the Jews. You mark that down—it was the primary issue that had to be settled. He died with this superscription written over Him on the cross: THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

Now listen to this gentile woman—
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me [Matt. 15:25].

When she addressed Him as the Son of David, He said, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” She as a Gentile had no claim upon Him as the Son of David. However, now she comes and worships Him, calling Him “Lord,” and asks for help. Now she will get help, as we shall see.

But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs [Matt. 15:26].

That is a very strong statement! Such a rebuff would have driven many of us away. We would have turned on our heels and said, “You can’t talk to us like that!”

Now you must agree McGee is very simple, but gives some good information to the beginner.

Now compare this with STEDMAN’S analysis below on the same very passage and event. STEDMAN WRITES

Two questions are always asked about this incident: The first is, “Why did Jesus go into Tyre and Sidon?” These were Gentile cities, Canaanite cities. This woman was a Canaanite, Matthew tells us. Yet Jesus left immediately after this teaching on tradition and went into Tyre and Sidon. Why?

The only answer is that, as we have seen in this whole section of Mark, he is teaching his disciples certain lessons. This was the first lesson. He was illustrating in terms of race what he had just said in terms of food. All foods are clean, and all peoples are clean, in the sense of being accepted by God. There are no distinctions among foods, as being defiling or undefiling; there are no distinctions among people. So he led them to a Gentile city, in order that their Jewish scruples might be challenged immediately.

The second question is, “Why did he treat this woman rather harshly?” Matthew says that when she first asked him to heal her daughter, he would not even answer her. Many have wondered why.

I think the answer is in Matthew’s account, where we are told that she first addressed him in this way: “O thou Son of David, come and heal my daughter.” “Son of David” is a Jewish term for the Jewish Messiah. She was coming to him on the ground that he was a Jew, and she was a Gentile. That is why he said to her, “The children first must be fed,” because it was God’s program that this gospel go to the Jews first, and then to the Gentiles.

Now, he never intended that the Gentiles be excluded. But it was to be in the order of the Jews first, then the Gentiles. And when she came on that ground, invoking all the power of Jewish tradition, he said to her, in effect, “You will have to wait until the time comes, until the gospel goes out to the Gentiles. Then I can heal your daughter. By coming on this ground, you have imposed limits and barriers on God. Until they are removed, you cannot come.”

But then we have this refreshing change. The woman, concerned about her daughter, in agony for her child, presses through and says, “Yes, Lord; I know that’s right. The children ought to eat first, and then the dogs. But, even the dogs eat the crumbs which fall from the children’s table.” Then she said what Matthew records: “Lord, help me.”

The minute she turned from the ground of tradition and the Hebrew approach and, merely as a needy woman concerned about her child, said, “Lord, help me,” our Lord’s answer was immediate: “Go your way, your daughter is healed.”

By this incident Mark wants us to learn that tradition is a way of building barriers between us and God. But faith strikes through them all, right to the heart of God. When we come to God in simple faith, without any form or ritual or prescribed words — merely open our spirit in its need before a providing God — the answer is always instant and immediate, and healing comes.

That is why we worship by our inner response, by what we think while we are singing and praying, rather than by the outward form.

Now here is CONSTABLE’s exegesis on the same passage.

Jesus increased His ministry to Gentiles as He experienced increasing rejection from the Jews. This third withdrawal from Galilee took Jesus outside Palestine for the first time.

Mark also recorded Jesus doing more things outside Galilee and fewer things within Galilee than the other evangelists. By pointing this out Mark helped his readers realize that ministry to Gentiles was God’s will in view of Israel’s final rejection of Jesus.

Mark included three events that occurred outside Palestine and one following Jesus’ return.

There is a logical connection between this section and the one that precedes it (7:1-23).

Jesus had explained why He did not observe the traditional separation from defiling associations. Now He illustrated that by going into Gentile territory. This contact would have rendered Him ceremonial unclean according to the Jews’ traditions.

7:24 Mark normally began a new paragraph with the Greek word kai (“and”).Here he used de (“and” or “now”). This change indicates a significant change in the narrative. The hostility of Israel’s leaders led Jesus to correct them “and” to leave Galilee for ministry elsewhere.

The New Testament writers often spoke of Phoenicia as the land of Tyre and or Sidon because they were the two notable cities of the region. Tyre stood on the Mediterranean coast about 40 miles northwest of Capernaum. Jesus went there to be alone with the disciples. Nevertheless His fame accompanied Him, and He was not able to remain incognito.

7:25-26 “Syrophoenician” combines the terms Syrian and Phoenician. Phoenicia was a part of the larger Roman province of Syria. Other Phoenicians lived elsewhere since they were a great seafaring and commercial people. For example, the Libyo-Phoenicians lived in North Africa. The woman who heard about Jesus and sought Him out was a Gentile.

Demons were afflicting her young daughter (cf. v. 30). Her persistent request for help demonstrated her faith in Jesus. She believed Jesus could heal her if He would do so.

7:27-28 Jesus probably conversed with the woman in the Greek language, which was common in that area. The woman conceded that the Jews had a prior claim on Jesus’ ministry. Nonetheless if the little pet dogs (Gr. kynarion) get the table scraps, then she felt she had a right to a crumb from Jesus’ table. She implied that the Gentiles need not wait to receive Jesus’ blessings until a later time. They could feed when the children did,
namely, during Jesus’ ministry.

A little Gentile blessing would not deprive the Jews of what God wanted them to have. (“The Gentiles are not called ‘dogs’ but ‘doggies,’ not outside scavengers, but household companions.”)

7:29-30 The woman’s answer had revealed a quick wit and humility, but it was her persistent faith that Jesus rewarded (cf. Matt. 15:28).

“In contrast to the tradition of the elders Jesus [authoritatively] embraces the alienated of the Mosaic and rabbinic tradition: a leper (1:40-45), tax collectors and sinners (2:13-17), and even unclean Gentiles, including a Syrophoenician woman (7:24-30).”

The woman’s departure for home without Jesus also shows her faith. This
is the only instance of Jesus healing from a distance without a vocal
command that Mark recorded. As such, it demonstrates the great power of
Jesus working for this woman’s need.

The healing was instantaneous, as
usual. Perhaps one of the disciples accompanied the woman and reported
what Mark wrote in verse 30. This incident would have had special interest for Gentile readers. It shows that Jesus rewards Gentile faith as well as Jewish faith. Jesus had come to deliver both Gentiles and Jews (10:45).

I am sure, that one can learn much from each of these analyses by three different individuals, who have ALL DIVIDED THE WORD RIGHTLY & ACURATELY, and each delivered what the Spirit revealed!

The key is they have all three DIVIDED THE WORD RIGHTLY.

I rest my case! LOL

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Georgie Porgie

May 30, 2009 at 2:18 pm

@ Hopi
Re It was straight up lies, deceit and hypocrisy in christianity that put me on the road to apostasy.

What you mean is you were the victim of up lies, deceit and hypocrisy in Christendom!
You should not let that deter you from having a relationship with the God you actualloy once learned about and believed.

Girl, I can tell you that I myself have been a victim of the same, and several times. I even had an elder in a church in St Kitts who had the power, to deny me a work permit to work on that island, only because the congregations of our assemblies loved to hear me teach, and he was tremendously envious. I was just having fun, and sharing what I had, but that man actually took bread out of my mouth.

Re Those debit cards ain’t gonna save you, because you are still caught up in the system.
NO I am not. I live very simply, ma dear.

Re
tell me why in Lev 21 :16-23 is there so much discrimination esp. those with flat noses?

I really cant say. I would have to do some serious rsearch to get you an answer for that. But it really is not that significant for us whole live in the church age or the dispensation of grace.

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Zoe

May 30, 2009 at 7:49 pm

Like GP, I’ve had more than my share of hurt, pain and disappointment within the ‘Church’ BUT, that will never turn me off of The Lord Jesus Christ, and His Word, He has never once turned His back on me, as I’ve also failed Him many times; being very imperfect.

I’ve proved Jesus to be entirely Faithful, over and over again, for as He said:

“I will never leave you nor forsake you.”

“So we may boldly say:”

“The Lord is my helper;
I will not fear.
What can man do to me?”
(Heb. 13:5b-6a)

Praise be to His Holy, Majestic Name!!!

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Straight talk

May 30, 2009 at 8:05 pm

Zoe:

Calm down girl.

You are coming across as a serially abused wife.

When exactly did your wedding day dreams butt up against reality?

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Georgie Porgie

May 30, 2009 at 10:16 pm

@ Straight Talk

Ease up pun Zoe man. He has just given his testimony. He has only expressed what he feels about his hero.

I just came from two sessions of a Bible Conference here in the Orlando area, revolved around The Lord Jesus Christ, and His Word.

Like Zoe, I can tell you it is painful, when you had not worked for years and had to leave your country and be let down by so called Christians, only because others spoke too well of your Hermeneutical & Homiletical skills.

I had the best paying job I had ever had in my life at a medical school there, and only had to teach two hours per week.

I was thoroughly enjoying myself, and looking foward to helping the church to set up the Bible school that they wanted to set up, didn’t know how to set up, and still have not set up even seven years later. And one of the elders arranged that the medical’s school application on my behalf was denied.

Man I even had a school in the USA willing to award thier degrees externally, and with very little cost to the students or the church.

The hurt, pain and disappointment within the ‘Church’ is still felt as this man not only took good bread out of my mouth then, but even this year it cost be a better job at a better school in Nevis.

But you have to leave these so called Christians to God. You cant let cause you to leave your joy in Christ. You have to turn your eyes upon Jesus and do like David who “encouraged himself in the Lord” (1 Samuel 30:6). You got to look “unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:2)

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Pat

May 30, 2009 at 11:27 pm

@ GP

You are a good a dedicated teacher. But looking back on your explanations of the different divisions of the Word (through the Spirit), is it any wonder that some of us turned our backs on Christianity?

….why this Christianity thing does not just confuse the mind (which is probably its intent), it seems like nothing short of confusion itself.

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Bush Tea

May 31, 2009 at 12:09 am

@ Pat
This is exactly what I have been trying to tell GP (but he feel that the bushman is a ‘lil cor’mere boy so he just dis me LOL)

What is more, I pointed out to him that Jesus himself said EXACTLY what you just said about his message (i.e. that his message was designed to confuse the mind of those listening).

Yet GP and Zoe and millions of their kin feel that their role is to ‘divide’ the word and save us all…

When I ask him to explain why the bible is equally confusing, (when God could easily have made it understandable) he also dis’ the Bushman, and gone off with some other long division again…..

Here is another joke for you Pat… Jesus also predicted that many will ‘come in his name’ (calling themselves Christian?) saying things that sound plausible – AND SHALL DECEIVE MANY…

I personally feel that we should try to understand WHY the whole thing seems so confusing….not just dismiss it as “one of those things…”

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Not Saved

May 31, 2009 at 12:40 am

Or,

It could be that it was written by men and not a god..

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Bush Tea

May 31, 2009 at 9:02 am

@ Not Saved
There is no question that it was written by men. However these men were specially inspired by God to do this writing, and they wrote in their own unique individual styles.
…case in point was Paul. Now here is a man who did not study with any reference books or great teachers like GP. In fact he was a famous hater before his reluctant conversion.
…suddenly Paul ‘understands the message’ like a gorilliphant.
I wonder how GP explains this?

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Bush Tea

May 31, 2009 at 9:19 am

Back on topic

@GP

Now Georgie, here is my problem. Jesus says in response to a direct question from his disciples that he will only speak to others in parables, and that he does this in order to ensure that they do NOT get his message.

HOWEVER, he tells them that THEY are entitled to get the true message – and goes on to explain what he meant.

Does this not suggest to you that it would be particularly smart to pay special attention to the answers that Jesus gave TO HIS DISCIPLES rather than trying to divide his words to the general public (and the rest of the bible in general?) – which HE SAYS are intended to confuse?….

Now did the disciples not ask him directly what would be the signs of his ‘coming’ and of the end of the world?

Why not let us ‘divide’ his answer – which should be straightforward since it was only to the disciples, and therefore not meant to confuse…

(fret not, the Bushman will not rub in the fact that one of the things that he said was that only those who endured to the end would be saved….LOL – maybe he made a mistake cause both GP and Zoe are already saved…LOL)

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Zoe

May 31, 2009 at 11:35 am

@ JJ, A bit more to digest for this week.

A BETTER LAW; A Better Covenant.

“But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry by as much as He is also the mediator of a ‘better covenant’ which has been enacted on ‘better promises’. For if the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. For finding fault with them [the sons of Israel]…I will effect a ‘new covenant’ with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not like the covenant which I made with their fathers.” (Heb. 8: 6-10).

Now comes the essence of what the new covenant is to be:

First,

“I will put My laws into their minds. And I will write them upon their hearts” ( Heb. 8:10).

How is this done?

“Written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, NOT on tablets of stone, (Ten Commandments) but on tablets of human hearts (2 Cor. 3:3).

The Mosaic Covenant.

The Mosaic Covenant was made with the chosen nation, Israel, after the Exodus and at Mt. Sinai. It was made to be a ‘schoolmaster’ to bring Israel to Christ Jesus, the Saviour of the world.

Why was this covenant given? Did it annul the Abrahamic Covenant? How does the New Covenant affect it? Is it in effect today? How these questions are answered has great theological and eschatological implications.

1. With whom was the Covenant made?

The Mosaic Covenant was made strickly and ‘only’ with the chosen nation of Israel (Exodus 24: 7,8; Deuteronomy 5: 1-5′ I Kings 8: 9, 21: Jeremiah 31:-32; Romans 5: 12-14 with John 1:17; Romans 9: 4,5).

2. When was the Covenant given?

The Mosaic Covenant was made 430 years after the Abrahamic Covenant (Galatians 3: 14-18). It was given to Israel in the wilderness after their deliverance from Egypt. Before this time it was not in effect, but was preceded by other covenants of grace and faith

The SEAL of the Mosaic Covenant.

The sign or seal of the Mosaic Covenant was the weekly Sabbath day. It is distincly spoken of as a ‘sign’ between God and the nation of Israel (Exodus 31: 12-17; Ezekiel 20: 10-26; Leviticus 19:30; Nehemiah 9: 14; Leviticus 23:3).

The Sabbath in the Old Testament.

There are a number of important facts concerning the ‘seal’ of the Mosaic Covenant which need to be noted to see how it finds ‘Fulfilment’ in the New Covenant.

1. There is NO mention of keeping the Sabbath day from Adam to Moses. That is, under the Adamic, Noahic, and Abrahamic Covenants we have NO mention of the Sabbath for about 2500 years.

2. The first specific mention of keeping Sabbath is found in Exodus 16: 23-26 concerning the gathering of the daily manna, and this was spoken to the nation of Israel.

3. The keeping of the Sabbath was the fourth commandment of the Decalogue given to Israel at Mt Sinai ( Exo. 20: 9-11; 31: 18).

4. It is the fourth commandment of the Decalogue that God took to be the ‘sign’ and ‘seal’ of the Mosaic Covenant ( Exo. 31: 12-17); Deut 5: 12-15). Each of the covenants had their ‘own’ sign and seal, and God did NOT take the sign or seal of other covenants and make such the seal of the Mosaic Covenant. This is ALSO the case in the New Testament, contrary to Sabbatarians who want to impose the ‘Seal’ of the Mosaic Covenant on the NT Church, wrong!!

5. Though the ten commandments are spoken of as the Moral Law, the fourth commandment concerning the Sabbath was actually a ceremonial law. It was this ‘ceremony’ that was attached to the Mosaic Covenant as its seal.

What is Significant in the New Testament?

All of the moral commandments of the Mosaic Covenant, are repeated and endorsed in the New Testament, with ONLY ONE exception, the ceremonial fourth commandment, concerning the Sabbath. Why was the ‘Sabbath’ NEVER stated as a requirement for New Testament believers?

Because, as Paul tells us that the Old Covenant was old, decaying and ready to vanish away. It was a ministration of death, and was to be done away with ( II Cor. 3: 1-18; Heb. 8: 6-13). The New Covenant has its own ‘sign’ and ‘seal’ even the true and spiritual rest, which is baptism in the Holy Spirit ( Isa. 28: 9-11; acts 2: 1-4). To take the Sabbath day, and impose its keeping upon Christians today, Jew or Gentile, is to take the sign and seal of the Old Covenant, and add it to the sign and seal of the New Covenant. It is NOT Scriptural to do this; for it then becomes a confusion of covenants.

Even as the ‘seals’ of the other covenants find their ‘fulfilment’ in the seal of the New Covenant, so the Sabbath rest, IS fulfilled in the New Covenant rest, in the Person of The Lord Jesus Christ, NOT the observance of a day, and we are ‘Sealed’ by, in, and through the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13, 14; 4:30). This is true spiritual reast ( Isa. 28: 11, 12).

In Christ, the believer finds true Sabbath rest. He ceases from his own work, and attempts, and finds true ‘rest’ in the finished work of Christ. It is “in” Jesus Christ, that there is everlasting rest. This ‘Fulfills’ ‘the perpetual covenant’ of Sabbath rest. It IS NOT in the keeping of a ‘day’ BUT, in the receiving of a “Person” – Christ Jesus our Lord, that one finds the rest of God ( Matt, 11: 28-30).

Therefore, the Mosaic Covenant, finds its perfect ‘Fulfilment’ completion, in the Lord Jesus Christ. He was the only man, who ever perfectly kept the law in ALL of its requirements. He fulfilled and abolished in His cross, ALL that which pertained to the ceremonials, AND the externals of the law. That righteousness which is in the law, which is holy, just, good, spiritual and perfect, finds its absolute FULFILMENT in Christ Jesus Himself, re-living His sinless life in the believer ‘who walks not after the flesh, but after the Spirit ( Romans 8: 1-4). Christ’s new law of love to God and man, written upon the tables of the heart, by the Spirit, enables the believer to live that life that is pleasing to God.

As Dr. Walter Martin so aptly said:

“The Christian stand under ‘the perfect law of liberty’ which enables him to ‘fulfil’ the righteousness of the law, by the imperative of love.”

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Georgie Porgie

May 31, 2009 at 4:25 pm

@ Not Saved
Re Or, It could be that it was written by men and not a god..

This is what the scripture says on this subject Sir!

2 Timothy 3:16: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”

(This verse states that all of the Scriptures are “theopneustos” in the original Greek — “breathed out by God:”

2 Peter 1:20-21: “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

1 Thessalonians 2:13: “For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.”
(KJV)

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Georgie Porgie

May 31, 2009 at 4:28 pm

@ Pat
Thanks for your kind words.

Re ….why this Christianity thing does not just confuse the mind (which is probably its intent), it seems like nothing short of confusion itself.

I can honestly say that I have never been confused by the Word.
Are they things I don’t understand? Yes!
Are they difficult passages to interpret? Most Certainly! But confused no!
There are places where they are APPARENT contradictions. But I have found that these can usually be resolved by a word study or comparison with parallel texts. .

Re But looking back on your explanations of the different divisions of the Word (through the Spirit), is it any wonder that some of us turned our backs on Christianity?

I don’t think that anyone should be come apostate because we don’t understand the Bible, or the behavior of believers or even the different denominational dogmas (which are certainly the work of the devil!). Note I said DOGMA, rather than DOCTRINE.

I am not sure if you are saying that my explanation of the Word has confused you or if you are saying that you are confused about the three different presentations in the three extracts from three popular teachers that I presented above.

If it is the later let me explain.
I first gave an extract from McGee’s notes and Mark on the meeting of Jesus and the Syrophoemician woman.

Let me say, that I have found McGee’s notes complied from his Radio Ministry where he taught the Bible through in 5 years in the libraries of many Bible teachers, even though many critics have said that McGee was wishy washy.

Now I have the CD with all his works now but I started many years ago collecting the notes he used to send out to radio listeners which had ONLY the outlines of the books. Over the years when I wanted to study a book, I would always begin by going to McGee’s outlines, for help in “opening up the book” for me.

In the notes on his book studies themselves, for some passages he is deep with good word studies and good illustrations, in other cases he seems to just gloss over the passage. Mc Gee gives simple but useful stuff in my view.

Now in this case McGee points a few things that the beginning student might not know from a wiser reader of the Scriptures

1- Now our Lord leaves the land of Israel for the first time during His public ministry. This is interesting because He came to Israel as her King. When He sent His disciples out, He instructed them to go into the cities of Israel but not beyond her boundaries.

2- the Lord was rejected by Israel, and there arose conflict. The breaking point between Jesus and the religious rulers came only a few verses ago. (cf Mathew 13 where the conflict comes to a head when Israel rejects her King)

3- Jesus Himself steps over the boundaries of Israel and lays down another great principle. He will now receive the Gentiles.

4 He points out that as a gentile the Syrophoenician woman had no claim on Jesus as the Son of David.

5 He points out that in his initial treatment of the Syrophoenician woman , Jesus why was forcing this gentile woman to recognize the fact that Jesus was offering Himself first to Israel as the fulfillment of all the prophecies concerning the coming of the King in David’s line.

Now to me that is not enough to use to teach this incident, but as a beginner I have learned a few things, and my understanding of the Word he has rightly divided the Word to give what he gives.

Now this is the same way I have studied many things, as my university career coincided with my development as a Bible student.

For me, McGees notes clearly does not do full justice to this passage, so we turn to STEDMAN’S analysis of the same very passage from one of a couple sermons online that he preached on this chapter over the years.

Stedman points out

1- that this incident occurs in Mark in a section where Jesus was teaching his disciples certain lessons including the fact that all foods are clean, and all peoples are clean, in the sense of being accepted by God. There are no distinctions among foods, as being defiling or undefiling; there are no distinctions among people etc
2 . that this incident occurred immediately after Jesus had taught on how Jewish traditions had superceded the truths and intention of the Law
3- . that this incident was an illustration for the teaching mentioned above

Stedman then basically agrees with McGee concerning the reason why Jesus seemed to treat this woman rather harshly , and both of them agreed that the answer, though not given in Mark’s account is better explained in Matthew’s account. (So they have both compared scripture with scripture on this question- as they ought to may I say!

But Stedman gives more information for the inquiring Bible student!

Constable’s commentary resulted from lectures he gave to his Seminary students at Dallas, unlike Stedman’s sermon to his probably less studious church members. Without wrongly dividing the Word, Constable gives more information in a different style. The reader extracts what he wants for his needs – which may be for information, for devotion, for teaching or preaching purposes. I learn a bit from each without being confused.

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Georgie Porgie

May 31, 2009 at 6:04 pm

@ BUSH TEA

Re (fret not, the Bushman will not rub in the fact that one of the things that he said was that only those who endured to the end would be saved….LOL – maybe he made a mistake cause both GP and Zoe are already saved…LOL)

Could you help me divide this passage? What is meant by NOW ARE WE the sons of God in verse 2?
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Could you tell us how many different Greek words are used in the NT to translate the words SAVED & SALVATION, and indicate what are their common uses in classical greek or in the koine greek used in the writing of the ?

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Bush Tea

May 31, 2009 at 8:19 pm

@ GP
The Bush Tea is not a known divider, but It seems to me that the passage to which you refer deals with an explanation of the extent of the love of God. The writer is explaining sentiments almost identical to John 3:16…. that because of BBE’s love, believers will get to BECOME BBEs instead of the future that we really deserve…

…somewhat like you standing in front of one of your classes and admonishing them that they should appreciate the sacrifice of their sponsors so that “they should be called Doctor” ….(but let them not pass that final exam and see what happens…LOL)

Clearly GP, believers will be expected to speak in faith and hope as though the results will be a foregone conclusion (MME was referring to himself as ‘ING’ long before his final graduation LOL).

Many women (and men) pat a pregnant stomach and speak expectantly of their ‘son’ or ‘daughter’ (to be).
This does not seem complicated or in need of division to me.

On the other hand, when asked about what the signs of his coming, Jesus was at pains to point out the coming difficulties and the need to endure to the end.
Paul also talks of ‘working out your own salvation in fear and trembling…’ (nothing to do with WORKING FOR salvation) but more like ‘enduring to the end…’)

…and GP,

Man- what tell you what Greek words what?!?
You serious? you think I are MME? LOL.
Man I barely understand English…

In any case, read 1John 2:27 very slowly and tell me again why I need to care about Greek words….

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Georgie Porgie

May 31, 2009 at 8:35 pm

BT
Did you see the word NOW in verse 2? What do you thik the word NOW means in that verse about the believer’s current status?

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Bush Tea

May 31, 2009 at 8:53 pm

It means that NOW that they are believers (or NOW that your students are undergrads, or NOW that a woman is pregnant) they have faith and hope and can consider themselves ordained sons of God. ( doctors / parents etc)

….clutching at straws GP!?

It is a great hope! It is powerful good news! it is a special blessing! …. but is is only a fetus that needs to mature for nine months and be born successfully, in order to be ‘saved’ into the new family.

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Pat

May 31, 2009 at 10:54 pm

@Bush Tea

Man, I know you are gifted even though you are just a lil ole cor’meer boy.

Dont forget that GP is two Doctors rolled into one. A medical doctor and a theological one too. So, of course, we mere underlings can be easily dismissed, but he persists in explaining.

Why the Bible is so confusing? Two possibilities: the translations and/or the cut and paste jobs done through out history. I would lean towards the latter as I think this was done for deceptive purposes, as a means of control. Only the ‘chosen’ could then interpret the word…, only the ‘chosen’ know what is meant…, only the ‘chosen’ could divide!

However, it seems to me that the ‘chosen’ like Zoe and GP, must become frustrated when people like you, Not Saved, BAFBFP, ROK and Hopi, read, reason and become enlightened in their own way or another, which is against their (the chosen) indoctrinated way.

Now I think that is one confusing mess I wrote. lol

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Bush Tea

June 1, 2009 at 12:30 am

@Pat
I do not find your comment confusing at all. You are your usual lucid self.
However…
There is another possible reason that you missed, why the bible is confusing.

It was so designed!

Most of the translations were independently done from original manuscripts. However ALL of the translations AND the original manuscript are confusing….

The bible is actually an advanced manual, provided for students who have completed the basic requirement, which is a mandatory prerequisite.

You are also very much on the right track when you suggest that such enlightenment is very much reserved for the ‘chosen’…

…so my point is that a proper understanding of the bible has absolutely nothing to do with years of study, intellect, reference manuals, or church teachings…..this BY DESIGN.

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Not Saved

June 1, 2009 at 1:31 am

BT wrote…

“Most of the translations were independently done from original manuscripts.

However ALL of the translations AND the original manuscript are confusing….”

——————

First statement is incorrect.

Second claim cannot be made.

Can anyone think why?

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