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The Mark Of The Beast, The Coming Of The Anti-Christ,The Dead Sea Scrolls

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Mark of the Beast
Mark of the Beast

It is no secret that there is a constituency which dwells in the Barbados Underground who enjoys a robust religious debate. In recent times there has been rich discussion about the Jewish Talmud, The Promises of God and currently The Bible And The Qur’an, Brothers Kept Apart. This group is comprised of Atheists, Agnostics, Christians and  others, we even noticed the description Apathiest.

Surprisingly to the BU household the religious conversation has attracted a healthy following based on what we see from back here. We hope that we are not twisting any arms but there are some Christian events which require clarification.

  • The BU household wishes to ask our religious luminaries to explain how they perceive revelations linked to  the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls can potentially reshape religion as we know it.
  • Explain the Mark of the Beast and the much discussed the coming of the Anti-Christ.

Attached is a Power Point Presentation which has been in circulation for sometime which some believe is the Mark of the Beast exposed!

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820 responses to “The Mark Of The Beast, The Coming Of The Anti-Christ,The Dead Sea Scrolls”

  1. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ Not Saved
    I hope that this will not involve any complex equations you hear? cause my old brain well past that stage…LOL

    ….all I am saying NS, is that the various translations were not serially done as Pat suggested, compounding errors and mistranslations etc.

    …as to the confusing claim – Of course it can be made by someone who knows that this is the design intent. The fact that some do not find it confusing does not negate the argument.

    …just because you and MME understand complex maths and Fortran does not negate a claim that these are confusing topics…

  2. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Pat

    There are a few major reasons why folk find the Bible confusing? They don’t study it! & they do not have the Spirit (the Resident Tutor and Author within.) In addition folk who don’t understand the Bible generally possess a great deal of intellectual pride. Also it is clearly taught in Luke 9, that when the seed of the Word is sown, that the devil comes and snatches the seed away.

    When I get the opportunity I teach Biochemistry or Pharmacology to Medical Students. To do this I have to STUDY! I met a Pathologist with over 40 years experience, but before each class he teaches, he gets up early in the morning to STUDY! But folk will tell you that 2 Timothy 2:15 ought to be dismissed! You need not study the book, and by osmosis you will understand it all.

    It is clear to me from associating with others who study and teach the Word well, that intellect is not as important as STUDY & THE SPIRIT. 1 Corinthians 2:9-12 makes this very clear. I have never in 40 plus years, heard men or women who study the Word or have the Spirit, spew out the volume of utter nonsense that I have read on this forum. Here is what the Scripture teaches. ( But I guess those faithful dtudents of the Word must be “chosen” or “indoctrinated” in our way.)

    9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
    10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
    12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Folk who don’t understand the Bible generally possess a great deal of intellectual pride. They think the Bible is just another book that can be easily understood, although they found Math and Latin difficult at school. And when some of them had and still have great difficulty with the English language.

    I found that I had to make an effort to understand Pathology, and Histology and Physiology and all the other Basic Sciences to become a Doctor. I found that such study required patience, as I was not reading a Mills & Boons or a Harlequin Romance or Loius Armor etc.

    I found too that to properly understand Pathology I had to properly understand Histology first. And to understand Gynaecology that I needed to first understand the Anatomy (both Gross & Microscopic) and the Physiology of the female reproductive tract. I found that there was a progression in acquiring this knowledge. I have found that studying the Bible requires the same patience and progress!

    I can without fear of contradiction tell you that, you WILL NOT be proficient in understanding Pathology if you do not properly understand Histology. Nor have I met any Gynaecologist that did not understand the basic Anatomy (both Gross & Microscopic) and the Physiology of the female reproductive tract, and who did not learn in THE PRESCRIBED WAY USING THE RECOMMENDED TEXTS FROM THE PROPER INSTITUTIONS.

    Yet you tell me that BT,. Not Saved, BAFBFP, and Hopi, read, reason and have become enlightened in their own way or another which is against their (the chosen) indoctrinated way? The result is obvious.

    I don’t think that either Zoe or I are chosen at all. Rather there is evidence that we have patiently followed a progressive pathway of STUDY to acquire the information that we have gleaned. in obedience to 2 Timothy 2:15, so that we would be equipped to try to obey the tenets of 1 Peter 3:15.

    It is untrue that only some chosen people can interpret the Word of God, correctly! I have been hearing this nonsense and sarcastic rhetoric from my father for FORTY years! I have not found this to be true. I have found that even little pre-teen children can understand how to compare Scripture with scripture.

    The folk I have heard teach and preach the Word with clarity, and the books that I have read explain scripture with clarity. No one has taught that Jonah escaped in a submarine or that God came down on Sinai in a spacecraft.

    Are all the Bible scholars and teachers whose books Zoe and I have read and the other teachers to whom I have listened or read ALL WRONG? And those who have not studied by their own admission ALL CORRECT?

    It is people who create the confusion with their intellectual pride. They say Why should a loving God send sinners to hell? That does not make sense to me! So who are you? Does it have to make sense to you for you to believe, when on the other hand most folk don’t understand two hoots about Physics, but believe in the benefits of Physics. Most folk who benefit from contemporary pharmaceuticals or even natural herbs, also know nothing about Pharmacology.

    NO one says that a doctor or lawyer is “chosen” or indoctrinated. But persons who love the Word and study it are “chosen” or indoctrinated in their way. Does not make sense to me.

    Because some folk cant understand the difficult texts or apparent contradictory texts, they threw up their arms, and say that the Bible is mysterious, confusing etc etc But when others try to explain how they understand, or what they read to understand they are said to be are “chosen” or indoctrinated in their way. Does not make sense to me.

    Most folk who don’t understand are intellectually dishonest, and clearly under the influence of the devil, who is very present and active on this blog! He absolutely hates to see the Word being rightly divided on this forum, and he is actively seeking to thwart it.

    But I will now declare on this forum that

    1 – The Bible teaches the total depravity of Mankind. ALL ARE SINNERS .

    2 It teaches that LOST MEN CAN NOT SAVE THEMSELVES FROM THE WRATH OF GOD TO COME. And this whether you understand it the way you think it should be understood.

    3 GOD HAS PROVIDED A REMEDY FOR MAN’s SIN AND SALVATION.

    4. JESUS IS THAT WAY AND THE ONLY WAY.

    This is the basic simple message of the Bible. I have personally found this to be true and have accepted this message, and I have personally met many who have done the same.

    I have found that none of these people have difficulty in undertanding the heart of what the Bible seeks to teach. Do we understand all the difficult texts. I dont think so. But we dont talk nonsense about what we do not know either.

    Many people across the USA and around the world are leaving thier denominational churches and meeting together around the Word of God, and seeking to understand its doctrine, rather than being confused by the denominational dogma from hither, thither and yon……….for the devil is the author and purveyor of confusion and the notion that the Bible is meant to be confusing.

    How I long to see his end, and that of his followers. How happy I am to know that this will be verry soon.

  3. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    I wonder who is getting GP hot under the collar?!? ROTFL
    ************************************
    Most folk who don’t understand are intellectually dishonest, and clearly under the influence of the devil, who is very present and active on this blog!
    *************************************
    …come on GP!! why can’t some folks who are confused ‘just be confused’ – and trying to find logical answers to the many questions that they may genuinely have?

    …just because you and Zoe “dont talk nonsense about what we do not know….” does not mean that all of us should blindly accept illogical dogma that we do not understand….. that sounds like idiocy to the Bushman.

    Why not give us the benefit of the doubt and help us to HONESTLY understand the genesis of your faith… or concede defeat and let us get back to chatting about old school days or something.

  4. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    What is so confusing about the Bible!

    Its fundamental message and focus, after the fall into SIN by Adam in Genesis, is Almighty God’s plan of Redemption for all of mankind.

    The Fact of Sin.

    A. Creation Declares it.

    All of nature declares that something IS wrong. The contrast between life and death, harmony and discord, beauty and ugliness, light and darkness, declare the fact of SIN.

    B. Human History Declares it.

    The briefest view of human history with its chaos and confusion, war and bloodshed, the spirit of hate and murder, covetousness, moral corruption and dominance indicates that something is WRONG in the nations of the earth.

    C. Human Logic Declares it.

    To deny the fact of SIN in the human race would be an insult to all logic.

    D. Human Conscience Declares it.

    This is closely linked with human logic, but conscience is a further witness to the fact of SIN.

    E. Human Experience Declares it.

    When one reads the list of horrible SINS in Scripture such as Romans 1:21-32 and Mark 7:20-21 in the light of the news today, there is abundant evidence of SIN’S expression in human experience, Immorality, Crime, Violence, Perversion and all forms of lawlessness abound. Sin desires to express itself and the corruption of society in modern civilization IS evidence of the fact of SIN. Scripture indicate that this will increase in the last days (Matt. 24: 12; II Tim 3:1-5).

    F. Scriptures Declare It.

    The highest court of appeals is God’s Word. The bible declares the universality of SIN, that ALL men are sinners in God’s sight, needing salvation ( Psa. 14: 1-3; 53: 1-3; Romans 5:12). Romans 3:23 – “ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” The Scriptures show that there are TWO major mysteries at work in the universe and all other mysteries referred to in the Word of God find their place under these two. These two mysteries are called, “The Mystery of Godliness” and “The Mystery of Iniquity” (I Tim 3:16, II Thess. 2:7).

    Thus, good and evil, light and darkness, life and death, godliness and iniquity are at work in the universe. All created beings, angelic or human, will make their CHOICE and take their place under ONE mystery or the OTHER. Their choice will settle their eternal destiny!

    God in His Word, the Bible, has given all mankind a choice to make, LIFE or DEATH, in either Heaven or Hell; He cannot impose Himself on anyone, the choice is ours to make.

    Therefore:

    “For God so LOVED the world (mankind) that He gave His Only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in Him should not perish, BUT have everlasting life.” (John 3:16) emphasis added.

    Multitudes over the centuries, without understand the complexities of deeper theological reflection, have come to Christ, in utter simplicity, knowing that we all are SINNERS, and by simple childlike ‘faith’ repented and accepted and received Jesus as personal Saviour and Lord.

    Forget all of the deeper theology, don’t let it confuse you, that’s not for everyone, just ‘believe’ and He will forgive you, if you sincerely Repent.

    We all exercise ‘faith’ every day in our lives, in many different ways, if we had to understand many things, before we ‘acted’ we would never go outside in the street.

    Stick to the basic, fundamental message of God’s Word, He Loves us, He has made full provision in Jesus for our forgiveness, Salvation and eternal life. Just BELIEVE!

  5. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    @BT,

    Actually, Pat’s claims are closer to the reality than you may realise. None of the modern translations are direct from original manuscripts.

    It is not possible to claim the original manuscripts are also confusing for the simple reason we do not have access to them to make such an evaluation.

    In any case, I do not think the “confusion” comes from the translations process (which serves to confuse what exactly was original!) nor do I think it was “by design”.

    The confusion arises because one places supernatural claims on a very man made (in every way) book !

  6. David Avatar
    David

    Forgive the ignorance of the BU household at the Whitsuntide period, a significant festival in the Christian calendar?

    The question which BT continues to inject in the discussion regarding the need to study the Bilble to understand it, should it not be placed in the context of the times?

    Are we correct to say that the books of the Bible were scripted by the Scribes so that ordinary folks of the day might understand? Are we correct to say that many of the ordinary people of the day could not read?

    GP and Zoe please go easy on us man!

  7. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Bush Tea

    I can assure you that I have not got hot under the collar at all.
    My experience, and that of others who have gone door to door or witnessed to others here and there will agree that as I have said that “most folk who don’t understand the Bible are intellectually dishonest.” These are folk who are intellectuals- they CAN UNDERSTAND much of what you are saying, but because of SIN in their lives, they will dismiss you as a nut, or fanatic.

    How to I know that many who pretend not to understand are really running from the Word because of SIN in their lives? Well I love to ask them “ WHAT IS IT THAT STOPS YOU FROM ACCEPTING THE MESSAGE OF THE BIBLE.” I find that if you do so, they will give you an honest answer. I learned as a teen THIS BOOK WILL KEEP YOU FROM SIN – SIN WILL KEEP YOU FROM THIS BOOK.

    But 1 John 2 :1-2 says Chapter 2
    1. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
    And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our’s only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    I John 1:8-10 says

    8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    Bush Tea, you can roll on the floor and laugh as long as you wish, but I have no doubt in my mind that many folk who don’t understand the Bible are clearly under the influence of the devil, and that the devil, himself is very present and active on this blog!

    Luke 8:12 tells us
    12. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

    On the authority of Jesus’ teaching we read here that when some hear the Word, THEN THE DEVIL COMES AND SNATCHES THE WORD OUT OF THEIR HEARTS LEST THEY SHOULD BELIEVE!

    I have nothing to add to Jesus’ opinion. Why should you BT

    Many believers are confused by many things too, but they keep on believing. They don’t scoff and mock, and they know that there are no logical answers to many questions that they may genuinely have. WHY SHOULD THE CREATOR GOD CARE ONE HOOT ABOUT ME is a reasonable question. Do you have a logical answer?
    WHY SHOULD CHRIST WHO KNEW NO SIN BE MADE SIN FOR ME AND DIE ON A ROUGH TREE ON GOLGOTHA’s HILL is another reasonable question. Do you have a logical answer?

    WHY DOES GOD NOT IMMEDIATELY STRIKE DOWN SCOFFERS AND MOCKERS is a reasonable question. Do you have a logical answer?
    And we can go on.

    Just yesterday morning a lady whom I respect for the questions she asks about the Word admitted that certain things are difficult to understand. All believers know that, but we continue to STUDY, and attend Bible Study sessions. We read , we listen to good Bible teachers, we pray about that we don’t understand.

    I do not talk nonsense about what I do not know. I keep quiet about things until I know them well!

    You can not in fairness accuse me of not honestly and patiently seeking to share the genesis of my faith, because I have been faithfully doing this all along. I have repeatedly mentioned books and teachers who helped my development. I have repeatedly spoken of the tools and different methods of Bible study. I have given Word studies. I have had Hermeneutics principles posted. I have not much on this forum in an effort to facilitate an understanding of the Bible despite the nasty things said to me on this blog, and the mocking and scoffing.

    I am sure that the devil would like Zoe and I to concede defeat on this forum, just as you suggest BT, and stop posting because we cant get the intellectual’s on this forum who think that STUDYING is the wrong way to understand the Bible. We know that Satan would love more than anything to erase our voice from this forum, but you can mock me or scoff at my experience and those of others in our quest to understand the Word of God and rightly divide it. You can roll on the floor and laugh til Jesus comes, and you can accuse me of getting hot under the collar, when in fact I am here calmly giving my opinion, but you wont succeed!

    I know that to get me hot under the collar is your aim, and that of the devil, so that you can discredit me more than has been done on this forum already. But you wont succeed! Im sorry!

  8. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    Ha Ha Ha – man David your back broad…thanks for stepping in here and helping the bushman tek some of these licks…

    @ Not Saved
    Good points. But you are behaving just like GP when you dismiss my proposal that the bible was DESIGNED to be confusing by just casually saying that “nor do I think it was “by design””.

    I forgive you because you don’t believe any of this stuff anyhow….. whereas GP claims to believe, but dismisses all the references IN THE SAME BOOK that SAYS exactly what the bushman is saying.

    …I mean you can’t possible be more specific to a direct question than was Jesus when he answered his followers in private as to why he spoke in parables to the masses….an identical position to that taken in Isaiah.

    Actually, my own personal understanding of this matter is not even based on what the bible says, but on an understanding of the overall blueprint.

    As an engineer, I am sure that you understand the fact that an overall grasp of the total project brings special perspective to the various niggling issues that arise on site from time to time….

    @ David
    Cuddear David, don’t make it look so simple by bringing in the fact that only recently (and in some limited places) can most people actually read and write…. and that therefore any fairly intelligent engineer would have designed an important system like this WITHOUT the need to read, study, write …..or divide…

    ….tek care you don’t go and bring back Carlos too….

  9. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    David
    I think that perhaps I have, unlike, Zoe been going a bit too easy.

    To answer your questions

    The books of the Bible were NOT scripted by the Scribes, because scribes per se did not exist until the period of Ezra. Ezra is the first and only OT man to be called a scribe. The term scribe is seen mainly in the Gospels as scribes like Pharisees, and Saducess etc were inventions that developed in the intertestamental period.

    The proof texts for authorship of the scriptures has been cited on this thread a few times.

    That the OT persons could read, and did indeed understand the written word is clearly obvious from several passages. King Josiah, for example understood the scroll of the law that was read to him, and its implications. Daniel in his later years towards the end of the Babylonian captivity, knew from studying the prophets that that period was at is completion, and while wondering what should happen next, he sought answrs from God in prayer.

    All serious Bible students interpret the Bible in the context of the times in which it was written. If you read serious Bible commentaries, you will find that the study of a book, begins generally with an Introduction to a book which follows a particular pattern which I will note here:-
    1- AUTHOR

    2. THOSE TO WHOM THE BOOK WAS ADDRESSED

    3-TIME OF WRITING

    4. PURPOSE FOR WRITING

    5.TEACHINGS ABOUT GOD, THE FATHER

    6.TEACHINGS ABOUT JESUS AND SALVATION BY REDEMPTION

    7. THE CENTRAL TRUTH OF THE BOOK

    8- KEY WORDS

    9- KEY VERSES
    10- PRINCIPAL CHARACTERS

    11. OUTLINE (S) OF THE BOOK

    Such general information sets the stage or context for studying the book. But when such is mentioned on BU by those who have done this and advocate such, the idea is met with scoffing. You don’t need reference books etc

    Serious Bible students will tell you not to lift a text out of its context to prove a context, even though this is a common Bajan pastime.
    Serious Bible students will tell you to
    1- TRY TO ASCERTAIN WHAT THE TEXT SAYS
    2- TRY TO ASCERTAIN WHAT THE TEXT MEANS. This may require to look up the Greek or Hebrew in difficult texts, or read a REFERNCE BOOK to ascertain the historical background. E,g Could Jesus have avoided going through Samaria in John 4? So then since he could, then what does the word “needs” in that text.

    3- Only when the above has been done can the text be applied. This is basic exegesis.

  10. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @GP
    All jokes aside!!
    I can tell you honestly that in no way am I interested in trying to discredit you.

    My simple wish for you, would be for you to open your mind and contemplate the possibility that your ‘truth’ may in fact be incomplete.

    ….that the many questions that you admit that you are unable to answer may be telling you that your beliefs are flawed.

  11. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Not Saved

    Re
    Actually, Pat’s claims are closer to the reality than you may realise. None of the modern translations are direct from original manuscripts.

    I suppose you know that the KJV of 1611 was translated from the Vulgate and Septuagingt long before then.

    I suppose that from your vast reading on the subject of Canonicity that you know that the translators of the Vulgate and Septuagingt had fairly good manuscripts with which to work.

    I am forced to agree with you that the “confusion” comes NOT from the translations process (after all the confusion has to do with what has been translated) nor do I think it was “by design”.

    I disagree with you, however, that the confusion arises because one places supernatural claims on a very man made (in every way) book ! After all most of us will agree with what is written in today’s newspapers and this years man made best sellers!

    The Jews did not have difficulty in interpreting the Law prior to the intertestamental period! That is very clear from studying the OT.

    Jesus said that the Jewish leaders of his day such as the Saducees Scribes Pharisees etc were misinterpreting the law because they had added their traditions to the law. This notion has been supported by the many books that reveal this.

    The early church did not have problems with Jesus teachings or what Acts 2: 42calls the Apostle’s doctrines either. But Jesus, Peter, Paul, John & Jude predicted that there would be false teachers that would arise. The early church remained rather pure even through its persecution.

    After 313 massive error and dogma entered Christendom, and Christianity itself has suffered. Every different denomination that has arisen out of the Reformation has done so because of , and is characterized by some deliberate misinterpretation or dogma.

    Certainly when the Bible says that NOW are we the teknoi (chidren of God) in I John 3:2 it means NOW……. Not later. Anyone with even a passing understanding of John’s theology in the Gospel and Epistles will notice that even John’s eschatology is put in the present tense.

  12. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    BT

    There is no scripture that says that the Bible was DESIGNED to be confusing.
    You love to quote a text with out explaining its context to prove a doctrine.

    All serious Bible students know that this is a no no! Especially when we can show that if you put this along side OTHER RELATED scriptures that his dogma is debunked.

    BT writes …I mean you can’t possible be more specific to a direct question than was Jesus when he answered his followers in private as to why he spoke in parables to the masses….an identical position to that taken in Isaiah.

    Did Jesus routinely and always speak to the masses in parables?

    Did Jesus do his entire tour of teaching in 3 years of ministry by repeating the 19 (some say 23) parables recorded.

    Is not such a view contradicted by the reading all of the four gospels?

    Did Isaiah do all his teaching in parables or in a way that his hearers could not understand?

    Is the entire Bible taught in parables. Did we not all understand easily the story of David & Goliath etc? and other parts of the Bible een as children?

    What exactly does this mean BT, and I quote

    Actually, my own personal understanding of this matter is not even based on what the bible says, but on an understanding of the overall blueprint.
    Is this one of your parables? What blue prints are you speaking about?

    Re Cuddear David, don’t make it look so simple by bringing in the fact that only recently (and in some limited places) can most people actually read and write…

    Is it not generally known that the Sumerians and folk in the culture from which Abraham came were reading writing and more than this?

    . and that therefore any fairly intelligent engineer would have designed an important system like this WITHOUT the need to read, study, write …..or divide…

    Does the scripture say or Not that it must be STUDIED & RIGHTLY DIVIDED or not. in 2 Tim2:15

  13. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    BT

    Re
    My simple wish for you, would be for you to open your mind and contemplate the possibility that your ‘truth’ may in fact be incomplete.

    I KNOW THAT I DONT KNOW ALL
    I KNOW TOO THAT IT IS NOT NECESSARY FOR ME TO KNOW ALL OR UNDERSTAND ALL TO BE COMPETENT IN MY PROFESSION OR IN RELATING TO OTHERS ABOUT GOD’s WORD.

    You might be surprised to know that most reasdonable folk dont expect to understand EVERYTHING ABOUT THE BIBLE. MOST ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO HAVE STUDIED IT THE MOST!

    Re
    ….that the many questions that you admit that you are unable to answer may be telling you that your beliefs are flawed.

    This statement is a non sequitur.
    The questions that I can not answer tells me that I dont understand all, have not studied suficiently, and that God does not need for us to understand all of the Bible to love obey or believe his Word.

  14. David Avatar
    David

    Thanks GP!

    We used the word scribe/scribes in a punning sense i.e. the word was written by the educated clan of those times but you subsequently answered the question about interpreting the word in the context of the times. We don’t 100% accept this position but agree that it is plausible. It is reasonable that to conclude that even making allowance for inaccuracies in translation and idioms etc the formatting of the word in the bible requires an above average effort in application on the part of the ordinary man to divide the word.

  15. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    @GP……Are you aware that there were other Jesuses before your Jesus the Christ? Why did the authors of the Bible give you this particular one when there was Jesus ben Ananias who was also arrested and beaten by the Roman, Jesus ben Sirach and Jesus ben Pandira who like your Christ was hung on a tree on the eve of ‘Passover.’ Why this particular one?

  16. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Hopi I am indeed aware that there have been many others with the name Jesus since, and that there are even some today.

  17. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @GP
    Why do you find it necessary to forsake your normal reasonable and scientific approach when faced with challenges to your faith?

    How could it be a non sequitur to suggest that your inability to explain (to me simple) questions could indicate that your beliefs are flawed?
    …this is standard scientific practice… You develop a theory to explain an unknown phenomenon- then you test the theory by asking the hard questions.

    A good, sound theory provides appropriate and sound answers.

    One does not say “forget the unanswered questions, my theory stands….”

    What non sequitur what?!?

    Even worse for your argument, you correctly upbraided Not Saved by explaining that practically everyone who read today’s newspaper can agree on the facts of what we read. Yet it is difficult to find 10% of any sample group to agree on anything in the bible.
    WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU? … that we need to study more????
    ….give me a break GP. That is the way it was designed by a genius engineer….

    …unless you want to tell me that the God who created everything cannot inspire a book that most can understand?

    The early church did not have problem understanding because (like the disciples) they were specially endowed with the requirement for understanding….. not because the message was straightforward.

    I will refer you again to Jesus’s response to the disciples about the sign of his coming in Matthew –
    – If the bible is there to explain the gospel, why would Jesus say to his disciples that one of the signs of his coming will be that the GOSPEL will be preached to all the world as a testimony – AND THEN THE END WILL COME. (Mat 24:14)
    ….how could this be possible if all these ages the bible has been providing the message of the Gospel?

  18. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    @GP….and before! Was he the first Jesus to be persecuted and hung? How do you know that this is the real McCoy?

  19. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Bush Tea
    You seem to think that you are studying Science here, but we are studying the Bible The Bible is not studied as you study Science. I believe you know that.

    At any rate that is how I study the Bible.
    As a relatively young person, I liked what Martin Luther said. That is “ I study my Bible like how I pick apples. I shake the whole tree; then I look under every branch twig and leaf”

    I studied the Bible by first having a survey method, and yes dividing ii into 16 sections. Some teachers advocate 12 sections. That is how you shake the tree, Some believers try to shake the tree every year.

    Then I do BOOK studies complete with an introduction, as mentioned in an earlier post. For this I refer to as many commentaries I can get. This is now easier and cheaper as there is a lot of good information online.

    Then I do chapter by chapter studies of the book, according to a format given me as a young believer in 1970. Then I do verse by verse studies, or engage in such in Bible readings or Bible Studies. And yes I do have questions, which I write down, and sometimes I see other questions in my reading that I also write down also. Some (not all) are answered in my reading of the Bible and other sources.

    Then I do word studies, biographical studies, topical studies, typological studies as demanded by the particular area of the Bible. You can call this message scientific if you wish. It has worked for me. It is certainly methodical, and not willy nilly, slap dash or hodge podge.

    I don’t develop any theory to explain nothing in the Bible. And I don t ask no hard questions to confuse myself. They are enough hard questions in good books, with the several answers to them and explanations using scripture and word studies to explain why answer 1 might be preferred to answer 12.

    After reading it methodically or consulting the several tools and references I have found the answers to most of my questions, and those posed in the numerous essays I had to write in my more formal theological studies.

    You are welcome to study as you please and develop theories and ask hard questions.and even begin a new denomination as a result, if you please. But I am not about to let you teach me how I should study the Word Sir! Nor change the method that has worked for me and countless others from all the world that are deemed to be “chosen” and “indoctrinated.”

    Re it is difficult to find 10% of any sample group to agree on anything in the bible.

    I have already outlined on this thread today the principle reasons why the Bible is not understood. If you don’t think it should be studied what can I say? If you think that the Spirit is not needed, or that the devil snatches away the seed of the Word as Jesus taught, what can I say?

    But I do know that 2 Tim 2 :15 says to STUDY and RIGHTLY DIVIDE! Being a very simple chap I try to do that; and regret that I don’t do it enough.

    Re The early church did not have problem understanding because (like the disciples) they were specially endowed with the requirement for understanding….. not because the message was straightforward.

    The early church were no more specially endowed with the requirement for understanding than the contemporary church. In fact the converse is true, if you study the NT properly. Likewise the message is no less straightforward today.

    Re …unless you want to tell me that the God who created everything cannot inspire a book that most can understand?

    I do think that the Bible can be understood. I have met, taught, been taught by, and listened to many who apparently do understand much of the Bible. Some of them have questions too! I certainly understand well those sections that I have studied well. And conversely understand poorly those areas that I have studied poorly!

    It is very clear to me that you don’t understand the reference that you cite from the Olivet Discourse. You seem to have things a little mixed up………as usual.

    Many Bible stories and passages do illustrate and explain the gospel message that Christ came to die and save a depraved mankind. That has nothing to do with Jesus stating that one of the signs of his coming will be that the GOSPEL will be preached to all the world as a testimony – AND THEN THE END WILL COME. (Mat 24:14).

    Jesus is here intimating that as His coming approaches that the Gospel will be preached to all the world. And that is in fact true! The gospel is in deed being preached today to all the world as it has never been preached before, primarily because of the available technology.

    The Word is being translated today to more dialects and tongues than it has ever been before. I worship with and have met missionaries out in the field who are involved in this work.

    The Bible continues to explain or illustrate the gospel message by several of its stories and passages just as it always has. But you will now, no doubt dispute this simple fact and true explanation by a theory and hard questions.

  20. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    GP, As I have posted before:

    “Ignorance does have something to be said for IT; it gives rise to about 9/10th of the conversational output of the world.”

    So it be!

  21. David Avatar
    David

    Zoe

    Let the record show that BU agrees with those who think your down the nose approach does little to help divide the word for the ignorant.

  22. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    @ GP….. To which denomination do you belong?

  23. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Non denominational. Was Baptist after starting as Anglican til age 16.

  24. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ GP
    ..well well well!!! you and Zoe are truly amazing folks.

    Are you two aware that Jesus said that it is by your fruit that you are known? why the aggressive responses? why the disrespect Zoe?
    Thank heavens that this is only a blog, otherwise it seems that, like the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes of Jesus’s day, wanna two would have the bushman crucified…. LOL.

    Since we are taking off the gloves, tell me this GP…..
    If you are indeed right, and THE God who created everything is your personal Saviour – who are all these jokers that keep ‘unfairing’ you all the time? LOL
    ….these officials in Barbados, church members in St Kitts, etc?

    …compare the bushman situation…
    ….skipper!!! nowadays when people even look as if they intend to cross swords with the bushman I have to run quick and start praying for them and begging BBE not to ‘tek them on’…. cause I see what has happened to all those who tried to downpress the bushman in the past…and it ain’t pleasant.

    Would you not think that one way that you can KNOW that you are associating with THE Creator is probably when you can honestly say (like another David of old) ‘yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear nothing…..
    my cup runs over….. etc

    …so who are these jokers that run you from ’bout here again…?
    …and why did you not call for reinforcements???

  25. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Sorry Georgie I cant agree with you on your claim of “reliable manuscripts”

    The NT in the KJV was translated from the Texus Receptus, a series of Greek NT which originated from work of Erasmus.

    The manuscripts that Erasmus worked from were not of the best quality. They were simply the ones available in Basel at the time and dated from the 12th century (1100 years after the originals!)

    The KJV translation did not use the septuagint for the OT and only made limited use of the vulgate

  26. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    BT
    BT
    I have made no aggressive responses. I have just sated truths as I see them.
    I am not fighting no one on this blog. Have sought only to answer questions sincerely and accurately as I can.

    If you are indeed right, and THE God who created everything is your personal Saviour – who are all these jokers that keep ‘unfairing’ you all the time? I often wonder why sometimes; but guess what I notice that these folk are not prospering at all!
    And 2 Tim 3:12 does say Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. And James 1 does teach that we WIL:L be tested!

    One couple that once unfaired me 10 years ago ; the wife is now blind and running from the FBI with 11 counts on her name, and her husband who claimed to be my friend is running also with 6 counts on his head. I had forgotten about them, until I heard this report only recently and verified it online!

    Your quotation of Psalm 23:4 is indeed germane.

    Whereas I would love to be nearer my mother and sons and grand children, I am fairly happy where I am, and the St Kitts situation has only opened doors for me to teach in places as far as Rarotonga in the Cook Islands, and brought me into fellowship here with believers more knowledgeable and in all respects more worthy than those envious persons in St Kitts.

  27. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    NS
    Whereas you do have the right to disagree, I am unable to argue with you more acurately as I have no real references with me on that score.

    However, I love the KJV and along with the other “books and parhments” that I use, I am able to interpret the Bible reasonably well. And so can you and others, if you work at it, in some methodical way best suited to you……in much the same way that you aquired your professional qualifications.

  28. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    …and further to GP’s response NS, from my own perspective, it matters not from where various bible versions are translated since their true purpose is not in any way diminished…(quite the contrary…)

    I real sorry if you folks feel that God has to wait for some education system to teach persons to read, write, reason and divide before choosing that person to understand his purpose….
    ….the very thought!!!

    “….because my people have wicked hearts, and dirty minds, and no regard for God or even other peoples, therefore with stammering lips and a foreign tongue will I (God) speak to these people.
    Thus the word of the Lord to them was made precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little and there a little so that they be confused, and slip and fall backwards, and be broken and lost.

    (….Bush Tea’s translation of Isaiah 28.)

  29. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    BT

    No one has said or thinks that ” God has to wait for some education system to teach persons to read, write, reason and divide before choosing that person to understand his purpose….”

    But what has been said is if you study the Word ion a systematic way- whatever way you chose, you will understand more of it more clearly and more quickly! And that is a fact.

    For salvation all one need do is accept
    that one is lost in sin,
    that one can not save themselves
    that God has provided Jesus to pay the price of one’s sin, and that

    all one need do is accept into your heart by God’ s grace through faith in Christ.

    Understanding of the Word will come with time, once this start is made!

  30. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    OK GP.
    One way or the other we will find out fairly shortly…. We live in the most interesting time of all history…

    …I enjoyed the back and forth.
    LOL.

  31. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    BT wrote:

    “it matters not from where various bible versions are translated since their true purpose is not in any way diminished”

    —–

    Yes that does seem to be very true.

  32. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    We certainly live in the most interesting time of all history…thats for sure!

    Peace!

  33. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    @David, When I use the word ‘Ignorant’ or ‘Ignorance’ re some on BU, I mean lacking true knowledge and understanding as it relates to the Word of God, the Bible, BUT, some then try to pontificate on matters re this subject in true ignorance, stubbornly refusing to learn and be corrected.

    Are we all not ignorant on most things; meaning not qualified in a particular subject matter, well, it is even more so with God’s Word, as it can only be ‘spiritually’ discerned by those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, yet, simple enough to understand its basic message.

    “Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.”

  34. Pat Avatar
    Pat

    Well, well, what a night!

    @GP

    What intellectual what? It seems to me that Zoe is the intellectual on this blog. He/she is always in the pulpit, knows all, is always right and talks down to us mere mortals.

    You on the otherhand, when it comes to answering questions reminds me of a boxer in the ring – bobbing and
    weaving.

    It seems to me that the problem with you and Zoe and Carlos and Grenville, etc., is that you have practically put yourselves in a box with the bible, closed the lid and refuses to see what is happening outside. Anything you dont understand, you gloss over.

    Me, on the other hand, as an analyst was trained to question every iota of information, look for more and if I could not find it, ask why; seek out alternatives and most importantly look at the cons first, then the pros.

    I am no intellectual, but was told by my DG (he was an engineer) that I was the only one who did not need to think “outside” the box, as he thought I was never in it in the first place. No wonder I got all the high profile assignments with international travel. I was the only non scientist in the group. I guess I brought some balance to the Branch.

    However, I hope your Saviour comes soon and does not keep you waiting too long. Imagine waiting generations for the “rapture” only to be disappointed. You may be surprised that it will not be as you and Zoe thinks, but QUITE different.

    Bushtea may be on to something there, I prefer his reasoning on the end times. He may have a better understanding of the Book than you think. He can quote you verse for verse and he had no study guides, scholarly texts, etc., etc. He just questions and thinks, not taking things verbatim, nor at face value.

    Before I go, what nonsense that was about people afraid of the Word because of their sin? I thought you have been telling us all along that your Jesus DIED to save us from our sins? So what you talking bout, eh?

  35. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Pat
    I certainly agree with you on the basis of the etymology of the word “intellectual” that Zoe is indeed an intellectual. Like the Bible scholars whom I have read and listened to teach he has given evidence that he has studied and read the Word and books about the subject. He quotes and apparently owns the books that I see listed in the bibliographies of the commentaries I have read, and in the libraries of many believers whose homes I have visited. You see other believers all over the world do actually study the Word seriously and love to do so.

    There are men in the world that love golf, or horse racing, or gambling or whatever and do so with a passion. No one hates them or ridicules them. There are also men and women too, who read and study the Bible with a passion too. Such folk are considered idiots, and as I have been asked “What do you get out of that? “

    Zoe doers know a lot, and is right about what he says about the Word also.

    You show your intelligence and do me proud when you say of me “You on the otherhand, when it comes to answering questions reminds me of a boxer in the ring – bobbing and weaving” Because you are saying (even though unwittingly) that I “EARNESTLY CONTEND FOR THE FAITH which was once delivered unto the saints” as is the instruction in Jude 3. You see the word “contend” means to get back up and continue just as a BOXER does! Bet you didn’t know that did you? ( My favorite line from the film Iron Eagle.)

    I don’t think that Zoe and Carlos and Grenville, etc have a problem at all nor have me put ourselves in a any box with the bible, closed the lid and refuses to see what is happening outside. Anything you dont understand, you gloss over. The real truth is that there some things that are hard to be understood (c.f 2 Peter 3:16) and we accept that. Having studied and not found the answers, we have moved on and mastered those things which we do understand. This is how any sensible student studies any subject. Smart students aim to know a little about ALL areas of the syllabus (so that you can always scratch out a pass) then they seek to master as many parts of the syllabus as they can as they seek to get the best grade that they can. Similarly sensible Bible students do the same, and master the so many areas that they do understand.
    On the other hand, those who complain that they find the Bible confusing read and quote pieces here and there, when and then, in a willy nilly, slap dash, hodge podge fashion, and having understood little then do exactly as Peter says in 2 Peter 3:16! Peter says that the unlearned (with respect to God’s Word) and unstable wrest what they don’t understand, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    I don’t think that Peter under the influence of the Holy Spirit could have said it better. Do you? Clearly your methodology that has worked in your life’s work has not worked in your understanding of the Bible (of course you do not care about this.)

    Pat I sincerely hope that the Saviour comes soon and does not keep you waiting too long. Re Imagine waiting generations for the “rapture” only to be disappointed. You may be surprised that it will not be as you and Zoe thinks, but QUITE different.

    No it wont be different Pat. He came the first time right on time too. All the several promises concerning his first advent were fulfilled as Paul says in Galatians 4:4, when the fullness of time was come (pleroma en chronos). And he will come exactly on time the second time to, and for those who look for his appearing.

    You make me laugh, really laugh .Any Jackass can quote Scripture. Even the devil quoted scripture to Jesus in the temptations in Matt 4 & Luke 4. The devil and his cohorts are good at quoting scripture………….but do they quote it correctly or out of context? Do they understand what they are saying. Bushtea has so far quoted nothing of substance on the subject of the end times. But you obviously don’t know that do you? Bajans love to quote the Bible out of context with authority, to sound knowledgeable.

    Good Bible students don’t just take things verbatim, nor at face value, they investigate the texts to really understand, hence the study guides and texts which facilitates. I have myself written study guides on Ruth 2 John and the Books on the post-exhilic prophets.

    Actually I find that it is poor Bible students and unbelievers who tend to take the Bible at face value and verbatim. E.g When Jesus says in John 10 that he is the door of the sheep, should we take that as a metaphor, literally or both? How did his hearers interpret him?

    You of course know that shepherds of that day when taking their sheep from the homestead to find pasture would make enclosures at night in which they corralled the sheep, and that the shepherd lay in the doorway as the LITERAL door.

    Didn’t take that text verbatim or at face value, now did I? I studied and used the reference books and texts that you and Bush Tea routinely scoff at!

    It is not nonsense to say that SIN keeps people from the Word Pat. If you have ever done any personal witnessing or gone door to door, or on the street talking to folk about Christ, you know these things

    Re Before I go, what nonsense that was about people afraid of the Word because of their sin? I thought you have been telling us all along that your Jesus DIED to save us from our sins? So what you talking bout, eh?

    The answer to this question is to be found in 1 Timothy 4:10 which reads For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    The last part of this verse teaches that the work of Christ on the cross IS SUFFICIENT for all men, but only EFFICIENT for those who believe.

    God has made provision for Universal Salvation for all mankind, but this provision is only availing (though available) to those who believe and take the gift of salvation.

    God wants (desires) all men without exception by their own free will to be saved (cf. 1Tim. 2:4). However, in the case of some, His will can be and is effectually resisted through obstinate unbelief, because man has a free will and God will not force His will upon man.

    So whereas He is actually the Saviour (in some sense) of all men, he is only the Savior of those who believe!

    God is able (has provided) salvation for all men without exception upon the condition of faith. But all can not (will not) be saved; only those who exercise faith.

    Again though 1 Timothy 4:10 points out that God has provided salvation for all men without exception. It says, “He is the Saviour of all men.” But “all men have not faith” (II Thess. 3:2) and salvation is by grace through faith in Christ ( Ephesians 2:8-9 etc)

    Again though 1 Timothy 4:10 points out that God actually makes salvation available— in the full, evangelical sense of the term — to all kinds (classes) of men, only those who accept it are actually saved.

  36. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    I have always be amazed at those who scoff at the notion of the second coming of Christ. One imagines that the devil and his cohorts must revel in the fact that the Laodicean contemporary church, consumed with their ”seed sowing” (translate as money grabbing or get rich) programs have little interest in the second coming as they concentrate on building bigger barns! (e.g the new multi million complex scheduled for St Davids!)

    The importance of the doctrine of the second coming is demonstrated by its prominence in Scriptures.

    1 out of every 30 verses in the Bible mentions this doctrine. In the New Testament this truth is mentioned 300 times, or once in every 25 verses.

    For every 1 mention of the first coming there are 8 mentions of the second coming. 318 mentions of this subject are made in 216 chapters

    Whole chapters are devoted to it e.g Matthew 24 & 25, Mark 13, Like 21, 2 Peter 3 and some books are practically given over to it; like 1 & 2 Thessalonians and Revelation.

    Jesus spoke about it in John 14:1-3, the Apostles taught it, Moses and the prophets and the Psalmist all preached it. The angels who bore such faithful testimony to his first advent, informed us at his departure that he would come again [Acts 1:1].

    Such faithful testimony by Jesus, the angels and the apostles force us to conclude and believe that THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST IS IMPORTANT.

    If the number of times mentioned makes a subject important, then surely the second coming of Christ is one of the most important matters in the mind of God.

    The Word has provided us with so much information concerning the second advent of Christ that men are left with out excuses on this vital subject, so as to prepare for its arrival.

    Since the numerous prophecies concerning the first coming were so accurately fulfilled, it is quite reasonable to anticipate an equally accurate fulfillment of the more numerous mentions of the second coming. Our only conclusion then is that THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST IS IMPORTANT.!!

    The second coming of Christ is a word of comfort, a word of encouragement, a word of blessing and a word of warning; THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST IS IMPORTANT.

    Yet “intellectual” Bible illiterates, who think that thier ability to quote a verse of scripture here and there out of context, qualifies them to pontificate on things about which they know naught.

    It has always amazed me how folk expect lawyers to have acess to large law libraries with references and texts books would believe that theologians Bible scholars and serious Bible students ought not to have the same interest in references and texts books about the Word of God.

    It has always amazed me how folk expect Doctors to keep abreast by reading BMJ or Lancet, or NEJM etc but dont think that Bible scholars should read approprite journals also.

    It has always amazed me how folk who read the Bible here and there, when and then, and do so in a willy nilly, slap dash, hodge podge fashion think that they can apply “THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD” to the interpretaion of the Word of God, and especially ESCHATOLOGY.

    These Bible illiterates think that they can ask thier silly questions (which they think to be so very important just because they cant find the answers) and that this makes them so high and mighty or smart.

    To such I would ask to answer the following questions on Eschatology, using thier brilliant methods of Bible study, rather than the universally accepted “Inductive Method of Bible Study.”

    1.Discuss the method of interpretation and its role in understanding the Doctrine of Last Things.

    2.Outline the Premillennial, Postmillennial, and Amillennial viewpoints. Indicate which you believe, and why.

    3.Discuss at least three of the viewpoints regarding the rapture. Which is your position, and why do you believe this way?

    4.What is the role of Israel, the Church, and the Nations with regard to the End Times?

    5. Discuss the 70 Weeks of Daniel as found in Daniel 9.

    6.Discuss the relationship of the Church to the Tribulation, Israel to the Tribulation, and the Gentiles to the Tribulation.

    7.Discuss the prophecies relating to the millennium and how they relate to the past, present, and future dispensations. If you do not believe in dispensations, explain the role of the prophecies as related to your particular viewpoint.

  37. JJ Avatar
    JJ

    Dear Georgie Porgie and Zoe,

    I must apologize for my delay in responding to the both of you. Thank you for your thought-provoking replies. I hope to continue to answer each and every statement of yours and begin now where I last left off…

    In return, please read carefully with an open mind.

    God bless!

  38. JJ Avatar
    JJ

    Georgie Porgie, you wrote on 27 May:

    QUOTE: “Indeed, some of us can spot the googly from the time it leaves the hand, and again when it hits the pitch!”

    If you say so!

    (e
    . )
    (e

  39. JJ Avatar
    JJ

    QUOTE: “Re THE MARK OF THE BEAST IS COERCIVE SUNDAY OBSERVANCE, DEFIANTLY LINKED WITH A DETERMINATION TO WORSHIP GOD IN OUR OWN WAY IN SPITE OF CHRIST’S END TIME MINISTRY ON OUR BEHALF BESIDE THE LAW OF GOD IN THE MOST HOLY PLACE OF THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY.
    JJ you disappoint me. After a reasonable start you have descended to the depths only seen on this forum by a certain joker to whom I no longer respond.
    Please don’t insult our intelligence with your denominational dogma.”

    My friend, oftentimes the truth is offensive. Jesus’ holy life was a continuous rebuke to sinners around Him. The cross of Christ in an offence to those who do not believe.

    Jesus said, “But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth.” John 8:40

    Paul felt the same when he said, “Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?” Gal 4:16

    However, truth is truth and can afford to be investigated. Please be patient with me as I explain my position. I assure you, it is not “denominational dogma.”

    Concerning those who do NOT receive the mark of the beast is this verse:

    “Here is the PATIENCE of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” Rev 14:12

    Likewise, removing the debris to uncover hidden, golden truths requires patience! Have patience!

  40. JJ Avatar
    JJ

    QUOTE: “How can the COERCIVE SUNDAY OBSERVANCE, DEFIANTLY LINKED WITH A DETERMINATION TO WORSHIP GOD IN OUR OWN WAY IN SPITE OF CHRIST’S END TIME MINISTRY ON OUR BEHALF BESIDE THE LAW OF GOD IN THE MOST HOLY PLACE OF THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY be a MARK that is 666 and placed on the forehead of the right hand of folk in the tribulation period.”

    Georgie Porgie, first of all, you need to be a lot more careful when you read the text. Where does it say, (except maybe in perverted Bible translations) that the mark of the beast is ON the forehead or ON the right hand? Look at the Greek and look at literal, careful renditions of the Scriptures and you’ll notice that it is not ON the forehead and right hand but IN the forehead and right hand.

    Even if you acknowledge this, still you take ‘mark’, ‘forehead’, and ‘hand’ literally and this is your stumbling block. So to help you once again, I refer you to a previous post of mine where I put the following…

    “God also marks His people. Look at the “mark” mentioned in Revelation 13:16. Three verses later John saw a group called the 144,000 with the “Father’s name written in their foreheads” Revelation 14:1.”

    DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT THIS MEANS THERE WILL BE LITERAL LETTERS OF THE FATHER’S NAME ENGRAVED IN PEOPLE’S FOREHEADS?

    Again, I wrote… “Was the mark the Lord set upon Cain a physical mark or was it symbolic also? Genesis 4:15 reads, “And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.” Did Cain spend the rest of his life with writing on His forehead and would anyone have acknowledged it?”

    Why any different with the Mark of the Beast?

  41. JJ Avatar
    JJ

    QUOTE: “Please make sense! May I remind you we are not men talking nonsense in a rum shop, or the men that talk in like manner when they congregate on my father’s porch after matins or mass every Sunday!”

    Spiritual things are spiritually discerned! Your comment here is very alike the one made about the disciples on Pentecost. Have a read:

    “And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking said, THESE MEN ARE FULL OF WINE. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: FOR THESE ARE NOT DRUNKEN, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT upon all flesh.” Acts 2:12-17

    Be careful not to label the utterances of the Spirit as vain babble.

  42. JJ Avatar
    JJ

    QUOTE: “Re WHAT IS SIN?
    Sin is defined thus explicitly in Scriptures such as
    1- 1 John 5: 17 All unrighteousness is sin.
    2- missing the mark or coming short as in Romans 3: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (See the Greek)
    3- James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, THAT IS SIN!
    4- Romans 14:23b for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”

    Alright, you’ve given some very good verses here but did you deliberately leave out Romans 3:20, 7:7 and 1 John 3:4?

    Read these references, and then look at the whole picture. It’s not difficult to understand!

    You first referred me to 1 John 5:17 – “All unrighteousness is sin.”

    OK, if unrighteousness is sin, the opposite of sin is RIGHTEOUSNESS, right? What is righteousness?

    “For all Thy commandments are righteousness.” Psalm 119:172.

    “Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath; for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner; but My salvation shall be forever, and My righteousness shall not be abolished.
    Hearken unto Me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is My law, fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.” Isaiah 51:6,7.

    THEY WHO KNOW THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD ARE THOSE IN WHOSE HEART IS HIS LAW!

    Look again.

    “All unrighteousness is sin.” 1 John 5:17.

    “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law; for sin is the transgression of the law.” 1 John 3:4.

    Sin is the transgression of the Law, and it is also unrighteousness – sin and unrighteousness are identical. But if unrighteousness is transgression of the law, righteousness must be obedience
    to the Law!

    Paul makes it plain that it is the 10 Commandments that reveal sin in Romans 3:20 and 7:7. However, like I said in an earlier post, the Decalogue is “exceedingly broad.” “The Law is spiritual,” (Romans 7:14) and includes a great deal more than the ordinary reader can discern. Once again – “The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Cor. 2:14.

    Now look at Romans 2:13 – “the doers of the law shall be justified.” To justify means to make righteous. Now, would a doer of a wicked law be justified before God?? Never!
    My point is that it is perfect obedience to a PERFECTLY RIGHTEOUS LAW that would constitute one a righteous person. But for one to be judged “a doer of the law” it would have to be necessary that he kept the Law in its FULLEST measure perfectly every moment of his life. If he had come short of this, even on the smallest point, he could not be said to be a doer of the Law, can he? He could not be a doer of the Law if he had done it only in part. It is a sad fact, therefore, that there are in all the human race NO doers of the Law, for both Jews and Gentiles are “all under sin; as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” Rom. 3:9-12.

    The Law speaks to all and in all the world there is not one who can open his mouth to clear himself from the charge of sin which the Law brings against him! Every mouth is stopped, and all the whole world stands guilty before God (verse 19), “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (verse 23)!

    Therefore, although “the doers of the law shall be justified,” it is just as evident that “by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” Verse 20. In other words, no one has ever been justified as a doer of the Law. The Law is “holy, and just, and good,” and cannot declare that the one who violates it is innocent. A Law that would justify a wicked man would be a wicked Law!!

    The very fact that the Law will not declare sinners to be righteous, – that it will not say that men have kept it when they have violated it, – is in itself sufficient evidence that it is GOOD. The Law of God is the perfection of righteousness, and therefore it is forced to declare the sad fact that not one of Adam’s race has fulfilled its requirements! We are all “transgressors of the law.”

    So here’s the case:

    1. The Law of God is perfect righteousness; and perfect conformity to it is demanded of everyone who shall enter the kingdom of heaven.

    2. But the Law has not a particle of righteousness to bestow upon anyone, for all are sinners, and all are unable to comply with its requirements. No matter how diligently nor how zealously a person works, nothing that he can do will meet the full measure of the Law’s demands. It is too high for him to attain to – he cannot obtain righteousness by the law – “by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified [made righteous] in His sight.”

    On top of that, “the law worketh wrath, “because “all have sinned,” and “the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience.”

    So, how on earth shall we become doers of the law and thus escape wrath, or the curse?

    The answer is, “He who through faith is righteous shall live.” By faith, not by works, we become doers of the Law! “With the heart man believeth unto righteousness.” Romans 10:10.

    “The just shall live by faith.”

    I’m sure we all agree that righteousness does not therefore come by works, but by faith.

    “If it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.” Romans 11:6.

    “To him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Romans 4:4, 5

    There is no exceptions to this. All those who are ‘just’ are made just and kept just by faith alone! Why? Simply because the Law is so holy. It is greater than can be done by man! Only divine power can accomplish it! So by faith we receive the Lord Jesus, and He lives the perfect Law in us!

    The Jews followed after the Law of righteousness, but they did’nt attain to it. Why not? “Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.” They followed after the Law in the WRONG WAY. It is not by works, but by faith, that the works which the law requires can be attained. That is to say that bad works can not produce good works; good can not come of evil. But when we keep the law by faith, we do good works because “FAITH WORKS by LOVE.” In other words, “whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” Rom. 14:23.

    Now that you’ve been enlightened with regard to the Law of God, read what the Lord says to those who have been given light, and yet fail to live in accordance with it: “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” James 4:17 (which you also quoted but didn’t exegete)

    Quote: “Please dont come with junk about NOT keeping the Sabbath!, or NOT KEEPING THE LAW OF MOSES OR THOSE PARTS OF THE LAW YOUR DENOMINATIONAL DOGMA PRESCRIBES.”

    All throughout your writings, you claim to exercise proper exegesis. Please go through what I’ve just posted and point out my ‘junk’ using the Scriptures. PROVE THAT THE LAW OF GOD IS NO LONGER VALID. PROVE THAT THE SABBATH IS NO LONGER VALID. But don’t throw both out the water just because you don’t want to keep Sabbath!

  43. Foolbert Avatar
    Foolbert

    I wished that the beast would have shown his face a few days ago including
    the Sabbath and yesterday too.

  44. Knight Templar Avatar
    Knight Templar

    I too am curious…how are you all coping with the recession…how many of you have lost jobs, had hours cut, etc. etc…how is this affecting you emotionally and psychologically…does anybody have any coping techniques, optimism, thoughts on how bad it will get before it will get better…are you stressing out, more depressed etc…tips on surviving etc. etc…

  45. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    JJ, Thanks for getting back to GP and me, I’m sure that GP will answer you accordingly in due course.

    First, let me make it abundantly clear, you have NOT ‘…enlightened (me) with regard to the Law of God…’ as any serious student of God’s Word, and which I humbly consider myself to be, am very familar with all of the texts you quoted re the Law.

    Quote: “PROVE THAT THE LAW OF GOD IS NO LONGER VALID. PROVE THAT THE SABBATH IS NO LONGER VALID.”

    JJ, did you honestly and carefully, with an open mind, truly read my post?

    Did I not say, that the Law, specifically, the Ten Commandments, IS NOT invalidated, NOT abolished, BUT, rather, because Jesus kept them ALL perfectly, the Only man ever to do so, and hence, FULFILLED , COMPLETELY, and therefore, through the Imperative of LOVE, by, in, and through the indwelling Holy Spirit in the hearts and lives of ‘Justified’ believers, FUFILL ALL the Law, the Ten Commandments, by (1) “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt LOVE The Lord Thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. And the second is like unto it, thou shalt LOVE thy neighbour as thyself.”
    (Matt. 22:37-39).

    And how JJ, does JESUS conclude after referring to Deut 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18?

    “One these TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG (How much of the LAW?) ALL the LAW AND THE PROPHETS” (Matt. 22:40). emphasis added.

    Do YOU believe what Almighty God’s Word says? Are you calling Jesus a liar?

    This is emphatically and explicitly conformed by none other than the Apostle Paul.

    Having identified 5 of the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and alluding to the OTHER 5 COMMANDMENTS, Paul then states in plain language.

    “LOVE worketh no ill to his neighbour: Therefore, LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.” (Rom. 13: 10).

    He repeats it AGAIN in Galatians.

    “For ALL THE LAW is FULFILLED in ONE word: Thou shall LOVE thy neighbour as thyself.” (Gal, 5;14).

    The absolute Righteousness of God’s Holy Law, the Ten Commandments, were completely and totally FULFILLED by Christ as He kept them ALL perfectly.

    He then satisfied the Holy Righteousness of the Law, by dying on Calvary, having PAID IN FULL, the JUST requirement of THE LAW, by bearing ALL of our SIN, being our substitute, taking our PENALTY on Himself, and thus satisfying the Father’s Holy, Righteous Justice, which NONE of us could do.

    This is precisely why Paul states:

    “For I through the LAW died to the LAW that I might live to God” ( Gal. 2:19).

    “I do not set aside the grace of God; for if RIGHTEOUSNESS comes through the LAW, then Christ died in vain.”

    Our right standing before God, in Christ Jesus, has absolutly nothing to do with keeping the Sabbath day, NOTHING at all.

    Our initial Justification, was by Grace through Faith; our Sanctification is by Grace through Faith; and our ultimate Glorification, is by Grace through Faith, NOT observing or keeping the Sabbath day. This IS New Testament theology!

    This is why Paul again, stresses the point in Galatians:

    “For if the INHERITANCE is of the Law, it IS no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise” (Gal. 3:18).

    I will deal more thoroughly tomorrow with this verse, plus Revelation 14:12 et al, and the New Testament meaning of the word ‘Commandments’ that is terribly misunderstood by Sabbatarians!

  46. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    JJ, You quoted Revelation 14:12, “Here is the patience of the saints: here (are) they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus”

    Sabbatarians like to quote such verses, believing that the word “commandments” as used in the New Testament, is always used with reference to the Ten Commandments, which is not correct. It may refer to one or more of the Ten Commandments.

    However, this term does not always refer to the Decalogue, and when it does, only ONCE is it used in connection with the Sabbath commandment. That one time is:

    “And they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment” (Luke 23: 56).

    Other uses of the term commandment or commandments of God include the following:

    “Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping the commandments of God. Let each man remain in the condition in which he was called” ( I Cor. 7: 19,20).

    It is imperative to remember, that we are seeking to define “commandments” as used by John, the author of Revelation. While Luke used the Greek word commandment ( entole) to refer to the Sabbath commandment; John always used the word “Law” (nomos) when referring to old covenant law.

    When John uses the word “commandment (entole) it never refers to the old covenant law, and usually refers to the new covenant law of love. I will give all the passages in John’s writings which contain the words “Law” and “commandment” and it will become immediately evident that when used in John, “commandment” (entole) does Not refer to the Ten Commandments, or other portions of the old covenant.

    Here are a few of the places where the Greek word (entole) used for “commandments” in Revelation 12:17 and Revelation 14:12, is used by John in his other writings.

    “If you love me, you will keep My commandments (Jn. 14:15). He who has My commandments, and keeps them, he it is who loves Me…(Jn. 14:21). If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love: just as I have kept My Father’s commandments, and abide in His love…This is My commandment, that you LOVE one another, just as I have loved you…This I command you, that you LOVE one another” (Jn. 15: 10, 12, 17).

    “and this is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and LOVE one another, just as He commanded us> And the one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And we know that by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit which He has given us” (Jn. 3: 23,24).

    “And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who LOVES God should LOVE his bother also” ( I Jn. 4:21).

    “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome” ( I Jn. 5: 2,3).

    Notice carefully, that “…This is My commandment, (to do what?) that you LOVE one another, just as I have loved you…This I ‘command’ you, that you LOVE one another”

    Notice again, “And this is His ‘commandment’ that we believe in the Name of His Son Jesus Christ, and LOVE one another, just as He ‘commandmended us…”

    These are New Testament ‘commandments’ based on LOVE for God, and LOVE for one another, exactly as Jesus amplified in Matthew 22: 34-40; and as Paul did in Romans 13: 8-10; and Galatians 5:14.

    Therefore, we conclude that the term, “commandment of God” as used by John in Revelation 12:17 and 14:10 does NOT refer to the Ten Commandments. If he were referrring to the Ten Commandments, He would have used the word “Law” (nomos) and not (entole).

    I have to go out, will be back later to expand more on this, and other related passages.

  47. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Zoe

    Your comments demonstrate the help in understanding that can be obtained by just looking at the Strong’s numbers in Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and doing a simple word study.Yet the unlearned will tell you that you should not use reference books.

    Since they have not ytaken the time or effort to better understand how to interpret the Word of God, you are expected to descend to thier level of ignorance which they arrogantly display.

    Our children are to excel at common entrance exams, excel ion secondary school and excel in other aspects of life, but if when studying the Bible, you are to do at the level of an imbecile or moron!

    We rant and rave on this blog about mediocrity in all aspects of our public life, but those who display what is concerned to be the basics in rightly dividing the Word of truth, you are ridiculed for your methods.

    How inconsistent!

  48. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    But GP…..in all fairness…the Common Entrance and Secondary education all consists of a basic syllabus, there are so many different religions out there, all claiming to be the true one.
    I really dont see how you could compare them both. I dont see any instances of many types of Mathematics or many types of English…..however I see all different types of denominations all claiming to be the true one.
    Also…from reading the posts on this thread…..the arrogance mostly comes from the Christians, especially Zoe!!

  49. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Technician

    You are of course very correct when you opine that the Common Entrance and Secondary education all have a particular syllabus. I think that the Bible “consists of a basic syllabus” also.

    Unlike many, I am not interested in any of the “so many different religions out there, all claiming to be the true one.” I am interested in those who are seeking sincerely to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH, and to live under the basis that THE BIBLE IS THE ONLY AUTHORITY FOR FAITH & PRACTICE.

    You are again correct when you point out that “I see all different types of denominations all claiming to be the true one.” But again I say, the emphasis should be on RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH, and to live under the basis that THE BIBLE IS THE ONLY AUTHORITY FOR FAITH & PRACTICE.

    Nowhere does the Bible talk about denominations, and I can only recall one use of the word religion in James and the word religion is thier preceeded by the word TRUE!

    If all the different types of denominations were ALL RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH, they would ALL be saying the same thing, because all the different types of denominations claim to use the Bible as their particular syllabus. You see all denominations err because they get caught up in dogma and depart from doctrine.

    Jesus told the people of his day in Mark 7 Verse 8: “You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.”

    Now, the traditions of which he spoke had begun in right ways. That is, they were simply an attempt to understand the Law. The book of Leviticus did require that certain ablutions, certain washings, be performed as a way of teaching the people how to handle sin.

    That was the intent of the Law. But as these requirements were applied to various situations, certain suggestions were made as to the proper way to do it. And there was nothing wrong with that, particularly. But then the priests began to interpret the suggestions which had been made, and added to them.

    Then interpretations of the interpretations were added, until gradually there was built up a tremendous mass of tradition which demanded inflexible obedience and scrupulous observance of even the minor details, so that the purpose of the Law was forgotten.

    This is what has happened in the Christian church. In the book of Acts you find an amazing liberty of the Spirit among the people of God. The Lord never worked twice in the same way in the book of Acts. That is beautiful to see. But you cannot deduce a ceremony of a ritual for the church from the book of Acts, because God is moving in freshness and variety and spontaneity wherever you turn.

    But especially after 313 AD some of these ways were settled upon as the right way to do a thing, and others were added, and interpretations were added to them, until through the years, as you well know, there have grown up varying categories of worship forms — “orders of service” we call them — each claiming to be the right one.

    Many of us have been victims of these. We do not feel we have worshipped unless we have sung the Gloria Patri, or read the Apostles’ Creed, or something similar. But we have departed from continuing stedfastly in the Apostles doctrine as the early church did as recoded in Acts 2:42. This is what our Lord is dealing with. Mark shows us first of all the force of such tradition in these people’s lives.

    In Mark 7:5-7, we read the words of Jesus with regard to tradition, and we learn something of the course of tradition, i.e., how it develops. With our Lord’s keen perceptiveness, he plunges right to the heart of the issue. When the Pharisees ask him, “Why do your disciples not observe the traditions?” he points out to them, first of all, the effect that the observance of tradition has upon our lives. It produces hypocrites. “You hypocrites,” he says.

    I am sometimes amazed as I read through the gospels at the bluntness of the language of Jesus! In fact, Matthew’s account tells us that the disciples said to him afterward, “Do you realize that you offended those Pharisees?” And he did offend them. So don’t get too uptight when Zoe sounds of on this blog- he has the example of Jesus behind him! He has precedent!

    Jesus quoted Isaiah to show his hearers that there are two kinds of hypocrisy.
    First, there is that which consists of right words but wrong attitudes. Everything outward is right, but inwardly the mind and heart are wrong. That, Jesus says, is hypocrisy — to look as if you are doing something religious and worshipful and God-related, but inside to have an entirely different attitude.

    That is what tradition does to us. It externalizes religion, makes it outward instead of inward. As long as we are fulfilling the prescribed outward form, we think we are acceptable before God. That is the terrible danger of tradition.

    This particular form which Isaiah mentions here — right words and wrong attitudes — is wide-spread among Christians. We all suffer from it, and we ought to recognize it and admit it. It is a struggle we all have, without exception. And it has resulted in what is probably the most deadly danger to the evangelistic message of the church — the self-righteousness of Christians — thinking that because we do things in the “right” way, and say the “right” words, and believe the “right” doctrines, we are thus pleasing to God.

    Jesus pointed out also, that Isaiah said that there is a second form of hypocrisy. It is, “In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.” This is to have religious actions which are clothing worldly philosophies. This is wide-spread in the church, too. It is the idea that if we take the principles and the precepts by which the world operates — dog-eat-dog, every man for himself, fulfill yourself first, etc., and clothe them with the words of Scripture, then we are worshipping God. But Jesus says that is hypocrisy, and is a failure to worship.

    This is the philosophy that is prevalent on this blog when it comes to scriptural issues. The hypocrisy of religion and worldly thinking and reasoning seeks to over throw the correct interpretation of the Word of God, which comes by study, because of the way the Scriptures are presented.

    Worldly thinking and reasoning argues that if God wanted us to understand the Bible he would have written it this way or that way. But 2 Timothy 2:15 says STUDY ………and RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH!

    To facilitate this goal it is wise to refuse to reinvent the wheel and use the tools and aids prepared by men of God, some laboring over a period of 50 years to give us the information to be found in Nave’s Topical Textbook. Thompson Chain Reference Bible, Ryrie, Dakes Schofield Study Bibles etc Thiessen’s or Evan’s or Chaffer’s Systematic Theologies etc.

    Even Paul had his books and parchments (2 timothy 4:13) a fine point that someon this blog failed to observe.

    So whereas we all have the same syllabus according to all the denominations you mentioned, they are some that USE THE DEVELOPED TOOLS to facillate understanding the contents of the syllabus. Some have not, and when they speak, it is VERY evident!

    I am sure you seek to acquire the best tools to do your work. Don’t you? So do serious Bible students. It is really idiotic to laugh to scorn folk who use the tools of their trade or vocation—whatever their trade or vocation may be.

  50. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    JJ wrote
    Georgie Porgie, first of all, you need to be a lot more careful when you read the text. Where does it say, (except maybe in perverted Bible translations) that the mark of the beast is ON the forehead or ON the right hand? Look at the Greek and look at literal, careful renditions of the Scriptures and you’ll notice that it is not ON the forehead and right hand but IN the forehead and right hand.

    To this I reply WELL DOES NOT THE MICROCHIPS MAKE SENSE SEEING THAT THEY ARE USUALY PUT IN THE SKIN? Eh?

    I am not saying that microchips will be used- I never did. But microchips might very well be used!

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