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GP,
I reviewed those presentations, and while some of the medical jargon was way over my head, I believe I now have a good layman’s grasp of the apoptosis-cancer linkage.
This is how I understand it so far…
There are several predisposing cancer ‘triggers’ (genetics, lifestyle, external/environmental and essentially any other factor that causes a disruption in the natural cell cycle). These represent the initiation agents in the Initiation stage of carcinogenesis.
The next two stages of carcinogenesis, Promotion and Progression are characterized by the mutated cells’ ability to suppress both apoptosis and immune surveillance. These cells take on the ‘quality’ of immortality.
So there would appear to be three ’causes’ in the cause-effect chain where we should focus in our search for a solution…
(a) reducing/minimising exposure to Initiating factors i.e. environmental factors and lifestyle choices. – {Prevention Solution}.
(b) for those who are genetically predisposed, pursue a genetic engineering solution… e.g. alter the expression of a person’s genes to remove inherited mutations. – {Cure Solution}.
(c) Decode apoptosis (my personal favorite 🙂 ). How do these cell mutations and genes like bcl-2 defy apoptosis? What exactly is the mechanism by which the Tp53 gene ‘intiates’ apoptosis? etc. – {Cure Solution}.
The reason strategy (c) fascinates me so much, is because I believe today’s technology puts the answers to those questions well within our generation’s reach… and, in the answers to those questions lies not only a cure for cancer, but a major breakthrough in extending human longevity.
In any case, Prevention is just so boring… Cures are way sexier 🙂
GP, tell me more about this ‘cell immortality’ referred to in your slides. Also, I have read that stem cells can remain in a state of perpetual youth… could you shed some light on this?
Micro Mock Engineer
I found those links while looking for something else and on the basis of our discussion some weeks ago thought you would like to “play” with them.
Some of the medical jargon is new to me too, as a lot of this is relatively new research. Two years ago when asked to teach apoptosis, I was trying to get the whole thing into 1 2 3 4 5 etc and a hard time. The syllabus called for much less so I quit after sorting out only what was required there, as I had other stuff to teach.
But I think that you have done a good job at figuring this out. You have BETTER than a good layman’s grasp of the apoptosis-cancer linkage.
What a waste you are in engineering LOL!
Both prevention and maintenance in medicine are boring; that’s why folk rush into using preparations not properly through Phase 4 studies, I guess.
I am sorry that I cant shed light on the two questions you asked. I think you have gone past me in the area of apoptosis studies. I look forward to hearing more of you in this regard in one of the major journals.
MME,
Why dont you ask memries or dr boobie?
so many doctors here
LOL
Computer Analyst,
The rest don’t have the patience to deal with a hard-headed engineer… I suspect GP’s academic leaning and love of teaching has endowed him with the temperament to deal with inquisitive laymen.
GP (if you are still with me LOL),
It appears that the 3 areas of focus I presented earlier are not really alternative approaches… (b) and (c) are actually BOTH necessary if ALL cancers are to be cured, and ‘solution’ (a), while important, is really not a solution at all, as even with the ‘best’ lifestyle and minimum exposure to adverse environmental factors cancer/apoptosis will eventually get you. This is because they are related to the number of stem cell splits experienced over time (discovered this after following up on that stem cell question).
So (a) will ‘buy you time’, but it will not prevent death from cancer or apoptosis in the long-run.
‘Solution’ (b) is necessary because some cancers are caused by genetic disorders or gene mutation. At present there is no treatment that will stop of reverse cancers caused by damage to sections of your DNA… for the moment, this is irreversible. Without a solution (b) the nest they can do is help you die as comfortably as possible.
‘Solution’ (c) will also be necessary because there is a second group of cancer cases that are caused by epigenetic factors… unlike the direct biochemical modification of the DNA (as described before) certain proteins (histones) hide sections of the DNA, giving the ‘impression’ of dead or mutated genes. These histones are necessary for normal regulation of gene expression (for instance, selectively revealing the sections of DNA or genes to give hair cells different instructions from tooth cells or skin cells etc.) Unfortunately this epigenetic process can go haywire leading to cancer. Decoding this epigenetic process to determine exactly how these genes are being ‘turned on and off’ in the formation of both good and bad cells, represents ‘solution’ (c).
Check out these clips from PBS Nova “The Ghost In Your Genes”… it provides more on this, and gives new meaning to the phrase “visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children”…
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j949RyNXqc&feature=related
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCNXMl4j-88&feature=related
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw5Faihs_v8&feature=related
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6VddGxb3hE&feature=related
Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Lqs-2b1PXQ&feature=related
Part 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCrlJxR3WtU&feature=related
I think you’ll enjoy these GP… by the way, genetic ENGINEERS are the soldiers on the frontline in this battle 🙂
… as is to be expected. We are, after all, the design of a Big Boss Engineer 🙂
“the nest they can do” in my post above should be replaced with “the best they can do under these circumstances”.
a few small questions MME…
Why would you want to live much longer than the allotted three score and ten- or so???
…even if genetic engineers DO enable us to live for centuries … EARTH GOT APOPTOSIS TOO… LOL…and it ain’t only the oil thing…
Where we going live?
This is much like the EPA thing. Lots of fun to explore the details and speculate about possibilities, but in the final analysis not really worth the effort if one appreciates the bigger picture.
Good questions BT.
I won’t try to answer each one directly, as they both have a common philosophical underpinning (regarding the purpose of life) which I would much rather jump straight into… we were going to get there eventually anyway 🙂
But first, let me pose a question to you…
Is ANY ‘worldly’ pursuit really worth the effort, if, as you say, ‘one appreciates the bigger picture’?
I am of the view that we are morally obligated to develop and use technology to cure disease/slow aging, and that we should be active participants in BBE’s redemptive and creative activity in Phase 1… ‘sub-contractors’ so to speak. I also subscribe to the view that “Genetic engineering does not encroach upon the scope of divine activity. It expands the reach of God’s action, placing a new mode of contact, through our technology, between the Creator and the creation.” – Cole-Turner, New Genesis, page 181.
As a corollary to my earlier question to you… why should we send a team of sportsmen and women half-way around the world to participate in sports when, based on their best individual/team performances, they have virtually no chance of even making it past the first couple rounds? Indeed, apart from the physical benefit of keeping fit (which can be achieved without trying to ‘beat’ someone) why should anyone, anywhere, participate in any form of competitive sport at all?… ok, so maybe I’m digressing a little now, but I would also like to hear your views on this 🙂
MME
You are a smart fellow
MME,
I am such an idiot! you would think that by now I would learn to avoid getting into arguments with such luminaries as you and GP!!!
…anyway I stepped in ‘it’ already so here goes…LOL
1 – Is any worldly pursuit ‘really’ worth the effort?
Unquestionably YES! almost every one! To the extent that such pursuit serves to develop / refine character, enlighten awareness, and enhance maturity of the mind -YES!!!.
Your sport example is therefore an excellent one. I would suggest that such experience is probably near to the top of the list of positive experiences possible in terms of learning to respect others, developing global friendships while pursuing personal physical excellence.
The Olympics is NOT really about winning, but about Excellence, Respect and Friendship. (which is the point that Rogge was trying to make with respect to Bolt (albeit to the uninitiated).
So my point is that extending life beyond the established limits only serves to distract from the real life objective of character development, and point to the unhelpful illusion that ‘living long’ itself is some goal to be pursued.
…any one needing 120 years to develop the required level of character maturity is probably hopeless anyhow LOL.
Actually, I have no problem with genetic engineering, or indeed with CSME. In both cases they provide interesting, challeng technical challenges for ‘bright’ sparks like you, GP and ROK etc to explore…. but the truth is that except for the wasted resources that could be otherwise directed, these things are neither here or there…
BT,
I knew the sports question would put things in proper context… and I agree with you 99%… where we part ways is at your suggestion that unlocking the ‘mysteries’ of our design is somehow less of a character building experience than sports.
Truth be told, its the quality of the life we lead and not its length that is important… but continuous improvement in our knowledge of the design and using this knowledge to improve the quality of life in Phase 1 is a noble pursuit.
Like you, I believe that sport offers excellent character building opportunities, but these are just ‘dry runs’ in comparison to the real moral and ethical character building challenges we will face WHEN we acquire the knowledge and capability to ‘engineer’ life.
MME like he is getting his CV ready for the position of BBE! Yuh mean there is vacancy and yuh ain’t tell the Devil of all persons?
I frighten’ enough for de Devil…. but he has a point.
MME, I know that you either use, or are aware of autoCAD. This is a class piece of software designed by some brilliant persons to facilitate design presentations etc….
…are you saying that it somehow enhances a draughtsman’s skill that he has been able to decipher the intricate logic and workings of the program code? … or does it distract valuable time and effort from MAXIMIZING the capabilities of the software and the efficiency with which engineering plans are produced?
How does the ability to manipulate the actual autocad code- in order to play chess for example- add value?
…unless as the wicked Devil is trying to suggest, you are aiming to displace the programmers with a superior version…?? LOL
LOL… I will need to think this through some more, as I may now be treading on thin ice.
… but with respect to your AutoCAD example, I am not suggesting that EVERY one of us should personally understand the intricate details of the code… but collectively, as a team, we should develop that capability. That way, from time to time, regular users can go to the ‘coders’ and provide them with a wish list of items for the next upgrade. AutoCAD issues these upgrades roughly once a year… here, see for yourself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AutoCAD#Version_history 🙂
I gine get real licks for suggesting upgrades to BBE’s design… so lets not call it upgrades, we are just correcting defects brought about by our (and and forefathers) transgressions… remember, we’re simply ‘sub-contractors’ on the project 🙂
LOL Devil… I know you begrudge us since you loss yuh pick, but all I talking bout is getting our CVs ready for Phase 2… there is a BIG difference between taking over the position of BBE and becoming one with BBE.
Ut Omnes Unum Sint… (John 17:11,20-21)
What engineer What!??!
MME, I feel that you is a lawyer…. you too tricky with words to be a ‘ing’….. but on the other hand yuh too honest and ‘to the point’ to be a lawyer too….
hmmmmm
Sorry to disappoint, but almost 100% of proposals for upgrades come from users who identify opportunities based on USING the software and on potential additional uses. Hardly any comes from hackers vis a vis how the actual code works….
Extrapolated, ….meaningful ‘efficiency benefits’ (upgrades) are more likely to come from evaluating the PURPOSE of our life systems; From the opportunities to realize such purposes and from the extent to which system design modifications could help to achieve these objectives.
….actually, the overriding objective is to love God ‘with all your heart’ and to love your neighbour ‘like you do yourself’.
There is no direct mathematical relationship between this objective and ‘long life’, ‘great knowledge’, or indeed most things that we hold important…. but that is another story…
BT… you en got no shame doh… agreeing wid de Devil… LOL
MME,
I need all the help I can get to deal with you….LOL
Hæc locutus est Jesus: et sublevatis oculis in cælum, dixit: Pater, venit hora: clarifica Filium tuum, ut Filius tuus clarificet te:
wuh loss!
“Sorry to disappoint, but almost 100% of proposals for upgrades come from users who identify opportunities based on USING the software and on potential additional uses”
But dat is exactly what I talking bout BT… these aren’t ‘hacks’, they’re either ‘potential additional uses’ or correction of ‘bugs’… sometimes these ‘bugs’ are of the user’s own doing (misuse of the program)… at times they’re intentionally implanted by the Coder to have fun with us (or teach us something).
whu loss Devil (LOL), Ego te clarificavi super terram: opus consummavi, quod dedisti mihi ut faciam… its OUR turn to finish the work He has given us here in Phase 1.
Sweet fuh days! LOL
Just to recap (the last few shots were coming from all over the place)… we are discussing the correction of defects in the Code… defects that have come about from OUR not following the instructions BBE gave us on Day 1. Now we expect BBE to come ‘just so’ and fix all the bugs WE created… as a loving and forgiving BBE, He will provide us with guidance as we try to live with, and correct, some of these bugs of our own making… and hopefully along the way we will begin to appreciate (1) just how incredible the original design really is, (2) the characteristics required to become one with BBE, and (3) the importance of reading the user manual and following instructions LOL
oops… that should have been Day 6… but what’s a few days between friends 🙂
MME & The Devil
I enjoyed that bit of Latin
eg Ut Omnes Unum Sint… (John 17:11,20-21)
ut with the subjunctive
in order that they might all be one
MME
I concede…. I still think that there is a subtle difference but I think I get your point…. in any case ….Hæc in proverbiis locutus sum vobis. Venit hora cum jam non in proverbiis loquar vobis, sed palam de Patre annuntiabo vobis.
When that time comes I have no doubt that we will agree on everything.
Georgie Porgie,
Just read your 14-point submission above. It was well written and you obviously do a lot of treading coupled with experince with social matters. I acutally agreed with everything your said – save one! And that is the Amos paraphrase.
Being unequally yoked in the context of the writer of Amos, refers to spiritual matters. The verse talks about the inability of “light” and “darkness” to mix. This has nothing to do with an academically educated and non acedemically being married.
However, I do concede that it would be wiserand prudent for persons of similar social standing to marry. For after the honymoon and sexual bliss they need common ground to make the union work.
Now that you guys are through showing by communicating in a language which reflect your ‘dinosauric’ disposition let us ask MME a foolish question.
Which oversight body among US is responsible for ensuring the bugs are fixed?
Given the diversity of US what about the US who can’t afford to by the best anti-virus to protect our software?
Keep the responses simple by using two syllable words!
Eddie,
Forgive me! …but Bush tea is in an argumentative mood. (happens monthly -usually around full mood LOL)
I disagree with both you and GP on the intent of ‘unequally yoked’. Personally,( after many years of marriage), I suspect it simply means if you are wise, DON’T MARRY AN IDIOT.!!
Full STOP.
Nothing to do with academics -UNLESS it is the woman who is highly accomplished.
Highly qualified men have married non-academic women for centuries and lived happily ever. Bush tea is unaware of 6 examples of the reverse. (actually I know of none but this is a funny world…LOL.)
Couples of different spiritual persuasions – but who have the wisdom to put everything into proper perspective, can and do make successful marriages. Indeed this can be a really positive experience for both parties (since most religions and ‘religious differences’ are about total nonsense anyway…)
I would even rate a marriage between two idiots (those who know not that they know not) with an even chance for ‘success’.
…But what will NOT work, is a marriage between a wise partner and an idiot….. THAT is an unequal yoke…..
…tek it easy wid muh GP. Um could be the hormones – or the lotta Latin from MME and the Devil… and I hope Pat don’t see dis at all…
@ Eddie
Thanks for your kind remarks
Actually I didn’t paraphrase or quote from Amos. You seem to be thinking of How can two walk together unless they be agreed (Amos 3:3). I was thinking more of 2 Cor 6:14. which does talk about the inability of “light” and “darkness” to mix, as you say, in its primary interpretation of the text.
But in the application of the text, being unequally yoked may have greater connotations than light and darkness. In fact in my application the situation can really be like light and darkness, if you get my drift.
In teaching Bible I follow exemplified by Ezra in Nehemiah 8:8 which states…. “So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.
1- They read in the book in the law of God distinctly, i.e THEY TAUGHT THE PEOPLE WHAT THE WORD REALLY SAID…….not what they thought it said
2- They gave the sense, ie THEY TAUGHT THE PEOPLE WHAT THE WORD MEANT. They interpreted the word soundly. They rightly divided the Word.
3- They caused them to understand the reading, i.e THEY HELPED THE PEOPLE TO APPLY THE WORD TO THEIR LIVES
1 & 2 has to do with sound hermeneutics and interpretation.
3 has to do with applying it to lives; making it practical.
So my remarks had gone past stages 1 &2
BT
There is some merit in your argument.
And many arguments between folk of different denominational persuasions are really about church DOGMA rather than BIBLE DOCTRINE. But there are some differences due to doctrine too.
The text to which I referred strictly speaks to believers marrying unbelievers. That is indeed its primary interpretation. So you are quite correct that in its primary interpretation that the text has nothing to do with academics.
In my discourse with the Devils Advocate, I stressed that in some religious circles the text is applied to say that only folk of the same denominational persuasion should marry. As the Devils Advocate and I were discussing academics, I pointed out that one can be in the same denomination and yet unequally yoked.
But as you say, and it can not be denied that highly qualified men have married non-academic women for centuries and lived happily ever. It is also true that the reverse does not occur very often, if at all. I have no problem with the rest of your deliberations Sir.
Dinosauric disposition… LOL dat one real sweet David.
What oversight body what?!?
We en even sort out this apoptic business properly yet, an already you want to set up a big government agency to regulate things… I now see why you like Obama and de US Democrats so much :-)… and before you jump on me, I have to agree that Obama is the best choice given the available choices.
Oversight will be established as and when necessary…as exists in the medical world today in various shapes and forms. The issue of those who cannot afford ‘treatments’, comes back to your political leaning… if you’re socialist (or modern liberal) you’ll push for the state to cover some or all of your costs, if you’re capitalist the ‘free-market’ will sort things out.
MME
man you well on de way to brek de back of apoptosis
i here waiting for a little berry from you when you start mekking a little money of this thing
listen to me man try and focus and stop arguing with David and BT
i here depending pun you for some fame and fortune LOL
@GP
We are onboard with you. The impoverish BU household is also waiting for the break to happen because in the rich Bajan tradition we too expect a lil donation…LOL.
Georgie Porgie,
Yes, I thought you were referring to the Amos text.
My understaning is this:
Primary context – Marriage between believer
and non believer
Secondary context – Broken relationship with God (Trying to serve 2 masters)
I think though, that it is safer for people of similar faith/denomination and spiritual fervour to marry.
I agree that people can be unequally yoked and belong to the same denomination.(it happens daily) Where the commitment levels differ, this would be a guaranteed formula for failure.
@ Eddie
We are on the same page
@ MME
David & I are behind you.
Seeing that you heard about apoptosis on BU first I think, and from me in an argument with BT, I think you know who you need to recompense.
I dont think any of the three of us will be too hard on you……after all we are friends.
@ GP and David,
LOL, no problem fellas… I’ll draw up a Micro Mock Contract (like the one the former administration had with 3S) 🙂
MME
It is clear that you are not our friend as we had previously thought. Draw up something simple that does not relate in anyway to strange behaving folk please. LOL
MME:
Interesting snippet which may add to your apoptosis research:-
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article4649173.ece
MME:
Interesting article today which may add to your research on the decoding of apoptosis.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article4649173.ece
Thanks for that link ST.
I came across telomerase when I was reading up on stem cells… apparently it repairs the short ends of DNA that are lost during cell division (a side effect of the “cell splits over time” mentioned in my ‘solution’ (b)). It gives stem cells their ‘immortality’. Unfortunately it also gives cancer cells theirs. Decoding telomerase is an important step in understanding the process… that’s good news. I’ll have to take a read of that Nature paper. Incidentally, to sort of pull things together, the expression of the hTERT gene (necessary for telomerase to function, and present in most cancers) is regulated by epigenetic alterations (as described in my ‘solution’ (c))… Doan worry about the strange jargon… GP and his friends duz give them genes fancy names to make it hard for us laymen to understand wha going on.
By the way, remember those micro-motors we were discussing some time back… kinesins, dyneins, and myosins… and the ‘train-tracks’ they travel along (microtubules and actin filaments)… I still think they are an important target in all of this also… but I am all over the place now. Will have to regroup my thoughts and come back next week 🙂
…here’s another angle of attack, that should start back up BT and GP 🙂
What sort of physiological ‘bug’ would you expect to contract by eating fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
… feel free to jump in on this also ‘Devil’. If anyone, you should know 🙂
LOL
I speak where the Bible speaks and I am silent where the Bible is silent
@GP: “I speak where the Bible speaks and I am silent where the Bible is silent.”
Wow!!! That seems rather massively constraining to me.
How do you debate issues within the domain of Physics? Economics? Computer Science? Chaos Theory? Et al?
@MME: “What sort of physiological ‘bug’ would you expect to contract by eating fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.”
While I’m “here”… My answer to your question would be: “Free and critical thought”.
@Chris
How do you debate issues within the domain of Physics? Economics? Computer Science? Chaos Theory? Et al?
I dont debate issues about which I know nothing. I listen to those are supposed to know, ijn the hope that I might learn something.
And I dont know much about Physics Economics Computer Science or whatever Chaos Theory is.
You see I’m a simpleton.
@GP: “You see I’m a simpleton.”
You have already demonstrated that this is not the case…
Well I am in a way Chris.
I know a little about cricket and medicine and a little theology, but I am not as well read on a lot of other topics as many folk are.
The blogmaster invites you to join the discussion.