Should Caricom governments be allowed to ignore the plight of former LIAT workers?
Does the region have a moral responsibility to make a financial settlement available for this cadre of workers who having served the regional at great personal sacrifice are having to make the ultimate sacrifice?
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In the end, even LIAT, the largest charity in the Caribbean, was useful for something: it served as OSA’s nail in the coffin.
I’m curious to see who our Supreme Leader entrusts next time with a suicide mission that gives you a heart attack.
How did anyone expect this Liat fiasco to end…except in some kinda HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION….employees cannot get severance payments, accusations of the attempt to sabotage the airline because they can go no further after what they did , the same crooks were controlling it, with their fellow thieves and savages sitting on the board and making decisions until they ran it into the ground, just as they did to Barbados and its people..
unless ya keep these small time crooks out of EVERYTHING…FAILURES will continue..
Is the government of Barbados going to publish in full the legal agreement covering the sale of its 49 per cent shares in LIAT?
@ Tron March 2, 2021 11:38 PM
“In the end, even LIAT, the largest charity in the Caribbean, was useful for something: it served as OSA’s nail in the coffin.
I’m curious to see who our Supreme Leader entrusts next time with a suicide mission that gives you a heart attack.”
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Wasn’t the fall of CLICO a well ‘organized’ inside job under the ‘astute’ guidance of a former high-flying Bajan lawyer who eventually turned into the political top dog called ‘primate inter pares’?
Who, so far, has been sent to jail (and their wealthy estates amassed from ill-gotten gains seized) for this massive white-collar crime the proceeds from which were used to underwrite lifestyles only the likes of the long-dead King ‘David’ can imagine?
If the GoB can bailout the CLICO investors why can’t it reach out a similar helping to the Bajan ex-LIAT pilots who have been left without even a financial parachute to land on their day-to-day survival feet through no risk-taking fault of their own?
So which regional entity might be next on the chopping block to trim the fat of bureaucracy in order to fit into the whittled down financial clothing Covid-19 has bought as ‘hand-me-downs’ for the financially profligate governments of the region to wear, with Barbados a major offender in the fiscal obesity game?
Should it be the CXC or Cave Hill Campus?
There must be other fiscally parasitic and non-functioning bureaucratic entities behaving as employment sponges for the overly qualified academics in the Caricom region which ought to be brought under the knife in order to save the fiscal souls of the members in the sub-region called Caricom?
@ Miller March 3, 2021 7:22 AM
Why should our Supreme Leader look after any LIAT staff members? LIAT is not a Barbadian charity, but the personal charity of the would-be Napoleon of Antigua.
As for UWI, I consider the University to be the best managed institution in Barbados. It is a major contributor of foreign currency.
What is happening to the former LIAT employees is a black eye for caricom. Bear in mind LIAT was promoted as the airline that was subsidized for years as a plank to support regional integration.
@Tron March 3, 2021 6:43 PM
“Why should our Supreme Leader look after any LIAT staff members? LIAT is not a Barbadian charity, but the personal charity of the would-be Napoleon of Antigua.”
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LOL!! But Napoleon did see himself as the embodiment of the Sun King (le Roi Soleil).
Tron, are you suggesting that OSA was sacrificed to the gods on the altar of political expediency in order to get that financial monkey LIAT off the back of your Supreme leader called the Bajan Athena with the touch of a King Midas?
But you have to admit in all seriousness, sans jestering, that the LIAT workers have been screwed left right and centre on the political torture rack.
It was the regional politicians hiding behind the veil of ‘shareholder governments’ who hijacked LIAT and caused it to crash and burn.
Why not enquire after the status of the Savings Plan of retirement that the LIAT pilots used to contribute towards over their many flying hours?
Pilot in court fight
Barbadian challenging legislation protecting LIAT
by COLVILLE MOUNSEY
colvillemounsey@nationnews.com
A CONSTITUTIONAL CHALLENGE brought by a Barbadian pilot against Antigua and Barbuda’s Companies Amendment Act 2020, the legislation that gives LIAT carte blanche protection from any legal challenge from creditors, will be filed in the high court of Antigua by the end of the week.
This revelation was made by Captain Neil Cave, who said that he signed the affidavit yesterday and sent it back to his attorney, Ruggles Ferguson of Grenada, who is expected to lodge the matter in court tomorrow.
Last August, a class action suit brought by Cave on behalf of nine other former pilots of LIAT was blocked by a high court judge, citing the parameters of the new legislation. The pilots are suing LIAT for deducting more than EC$5 million from their salaries without their authorisation and illegally lodging it in CLICO International Life as pension.
Constitutional motion
“There is a constitutional motion that we will be filing and it has to do with the Company Amendments Act that was successfully granted by Prime Minister Gaston Browne of Antigua last year. Our concern is that the act in itself is too broad, which is separate to the appeal on the basis that the act of stopping access to legal machineries of the court is an infringement on a person’s constitutional rights. So with reference to this, I have signed the affidavit and other requisite documents today. It is unfortunate to be in this position and that employees have to go to this length,” said Cave.
He noted that should the matter be unsuccessful in Antigua, the next stop would be the OECS Supreme Court.
“We have been waiting for too long to have our day in court; we have been waiting for about five years for that trial. We are hopeful that our matter will be successful but if not we are prepared to take this to the next level which is the OECS Supreme Court,” he said.
The former LIAT employee, who is also the spokesman for the cohort of the airline’s former employees represented by the National Union of Public Workers (NUPW), explained that the outcome of this challenge also has implications for the over $80 million in severance owed to workers.
Given the current state of affairs, with workers having been sent home for close to a year without any monies due to them from the embattled regional carrier, Cave believes regional heads needed to put measures in place to protect workers serving in regional institutions.
For example, he argued that the issue of where such workers should pay taxes and national insurance was an issue that must be ironed out going forward for any company formed by regional governments.
He explained that workers of LIAT were told they could only pay taxes and NIS in Antigua, regardless of where they were based or their country of origin. He said had this option been available, the majority of the 100 Barbadian workers would have opted to pay NIS in Barbados instead of Antigua, whose system does not have an unemployment and a severance fund component.
Cave said this was a big problem for the majority of LIAT workers based in Barbados. He noted that only 24 of the 100 workers stationed in Barbados would have been covered by the NIS in the country.
“The workers had no say in the matter and LIAT flatly refused to make direct payments on their behalf to specific NIS programmes,” said Cave, who disclosed that the history of this arrangement went back almost three decades.
He added: “This taxation agreement was rationalised based on double taxation provisions in the Treaty of Chagaramas. The specifics were put in place for LIAT at the governmental level. As a result, what has happened now is that scores of former LIAT workers are now adversely impacted by this arrangement as it would be discovered afterwards that the Antigua and Barbuda social security scheme that we were forced to contribute to for years, does not cover fundamental features such as unemployment benefits and severance.”
Source: Nation Newspaper
DavidMarch 3, 2021 6:52 PM What is happening to the former LIAT employees is a black eye for caricom
David, It is disgusting. The severed employee of any company deserves to be paid what is due to them in full. That goes for any bar that shuts shop, for any restaurant that shuts shop or downsizes and it goes for LIAT.
The other implication is that it will forever put distrust into the minds of anyone who works for regional governments. Good luck getting engineers etc. What they are doing to those pilots is an acid test for everyone else.
If it were me, I would be vex as ramgoat. Probably the only reason those pilots are not up and down in front of the airport demonstrating is pandemic lockdown and secondly, probably they want to protect their reputations, to be hired by another airline at some point.
Any employer who severs people does not pay the due severance is despicable, does not care about people and more.
You cannot play with peoples’ lives and not expect backlash.
The former employer (s) are governments of the region. Precedent setting behaviour is what it is.
@ Crusoe
I raised the issue of PM Gaston Browne enacted legislation to prohibit former LIAT employees from suing the ANU government, as well as creditors, including former LIAT employees, from suing LIAT.
Are you aware should the new LIAT Under Administration fails, despite whatever financial investments made by other territories, Browne passed legislation so ANU would first have to be reimbursed its entire investment?
After protecting his ‘government’ and LIAT from civil suits, Browne’s Cabinet agreed that a moral obligation exists to pay severance to former LIAT employees throughout the countries where LIAT once operated.
I hope you’ve realised Browne and his ministers could find all types of nonsense to talk about, such as who wanted to sabotage LIAT, but they’ve refused to address the issue of severance.
Tourism isn’t going to ‘take off’ anytime soon and since air travel is considered part of the industry, the Barbados ‘government’ should use some of the $300M allocated to the hotel sector, to pay Barbadian former LIAT employees their severance.
@Artax
Did you hear president of the NUPW say yesterday the MOT canceled a meeting last week with the union to discuss LIAT? Obviously it is not regarded as a priority matter.
@ David
There aren’t any new tourism related developments, nor progress with the old ones. So, I’m wondering what could have been so important to cause a cancellation of a meeting concerning the plight of people who have been unemployed for almost one year.
Yet, we responded to the cries of the hotel sector with a $300M ‘stimulus package.’
@Artax
We are thinking alike.
@MillerMarch 3, 2021 8:17 PM
Our Supreme Leader’s duty is to make tough decisions when necessary and keep the big picture in mind.
Our government barely has the money for the vaccine to rescue us. This must be an absolute priority! The LIAT pilots only impoverish, but still live. Without vaccine, we will slowly starve and no longer live.
Does Gaston Browne realize the dent to goodwill and reputation of a new airline owned by Antigua will occur?
This seems like inexcusable skulduggery on the part of Antigua and Barbuda. They received the taxes and the contributions even if not specifically for severance. What benefits did the employees receive from their contributing to the Antigua coffers?
Some other arrangement needs to be made between the governments of Antigua and Barbuda and Barbados. If the agreement made by the Bree St. John administration was bad then our government should take some of the blame and pay a portion, not all of the severance . Employees should bear some responsibility for perusing the contracts they undertake and the terms and conditions of their employment.
@ Tron March 4, 2021 1:13 PM
“Our government barely has the money for the vaccine to rescue us. This must be an absolute priority! The LIAT pilots only impoverish, but still live. Without vaccine, we will slowly starve and no longer live.”
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That’s not true! Your Supreme leader called “Charis” has the talent of turning begging water into financial wine.
Look how easy your deity was able to persuade Bajans to make ‘mandatory’ contributions to save the BWA and the SSA from financial implosion after both entities were severely undermined by the previous administration!
Look how, just for a mess of pottage of alibis to back away from his major commitment, your Uncle Marcus Mal(m)oney has stepped up to the begging bowl outstretched by your goddess of charity with the same initials “MAM”.
Don’t you think his skyscraper like deposit would make the difference between Bajans dying of starvation from either lack of jobs or lack of vaccines.
On a more serious ‘plane’, we are talking about the Bajan pilots and ground staff; not the entire airline army of dung beetles eating up taxpayers’ money; especially those based at the former HQ in ANU considered one of the most politically corrupt places in the world.
The same way the printing press was employed to print Mickey mouse dollars to make good the personal losses of the CLICO gamblers by way of bonds, so too the Bajan-bred pilots can be given some form of soft landing made from a cushion of Grantleys to be drawn down overtime and must be spent in Barbados only.
After all, the GoB would not have to burn up immediately any of its cache of foreign dollars as was done in paying millions to some fly-by-night White Oaks for services which have not landed Barbados on safe financial grounds.
@Artax
I agree with you that the Barbados government should pay the severance of the Barbados employees only.
However, the actions of the Antiguan government in eliminating recourse available to the former employees is clearly against the principle of natural justice and it may be worth investigating if it is worth bringing legal action against them for that, especially if ay constitutional principle has been breached. This also applies to the various governments that were parties to the sale, if they agreed to a change in arrangements.
What liability to the Antigua government is there for dumping pension funds monies into CLICO without permission?
@Artax
“the Barbados ‘government’ should use some of the $300M allocated to the hotel sector, to pay Barbadian former LIAT employees their severance.”
I disagree. Not that it might not come to this. And this plays the social harp well.
How could the shareholder, in this case the GoB, sell its ownership without downside liability protection? The issue pertains to events and legal which accompanied the sale, not events post the sale. Your pal has been asking about this for some time.
@ David March 4, 2021 2:43 PM
Who said there was no “permission” even of the tacit brand of tailspin?
Don’t you recall how that mastermind, the trickidadian Duprey, and his submissive sidekick Greenverbs had all the PMs and top-notch civil servants of the LIAT shareholder countries in their ‘behind’ pockets.
Even the now departed OSA- who, like a good Catholic priest, travelled on the same airline making its last descent to perform the final rites on LIAT ‘lying’ on its dying bed- was caught up in CLICO’s web of deceit, corruption and fraud as in the case of the Thompie & Greenverbs behind-the-scenes invoice manufacturing affair.
Didn’t the fumbling Stuart once described CLICO as a well managed financial company by a most estimable gentleman called Le Roi Greenverbs which was, then, a major conduit in bringing economic enfranchisement to many ‘ordinary’ Bajans?
The evil that those Bajan big men did, lives after them; even in the memories stored in the ‘black’ boxes of those grieving Bajan pilots and ground staff.
@ NorthernObserver
My main concern at this time is the plight of those former LIAT employees who have been awaiting their severance payments for almost a year.
As well as misappropriated pension monies.
Yes, of course….. I forgot all about the approximately EC$5M that was allegedly deducted from employees’ salaries without their authorization and illegally lodged into a CLICO pension scheme by LIAT’s management.
But, sometime during 2015 a pilot filed a class action suit in the Antigua and Barbuda High Court against LIAT (1974) Ltd. on behalf of himself and nine other pilots. However, during the continuation of the suit on August 12, 2020, the Court BLOCKED the case, ruling that it could no longer go forward at that time.
Former LIAT workers get assistance from good Samaritan – Former LIAT workers get assistance from good Samaritan: https://barbadostoday.bb/2021/03/09/former-liat-workers-get-assistance-from-good-samaritan/
We should thank Kammie Holder for the assistance he rendered to those former LIAT employees.
It was a wonderful gesture, characterized by kindness and compassion.
Instead, we’ve chosen to endorse Oprah Winfrey’s interview of Meghan Markle and Prince Harry, which is really an issue of little importance or concern to us in the Caribbean region.
@Artax
Agreed.
Some talk.
Others do.
LIAT pilots frown at Antigua’s offer
by COLVILLE MOUNSEY colvillemounsey@nationnews.com
FORMER LIAT WORKERS in Barbados are now even more frustrated after a new offer from the government of Antigua and Barbuda and called it “a slap in the face and grossly unconscionable.”
Antigua and Barbuda Prime Minister Gaston Browne recently revealed plans to broker a deal with shareholder governments for a one time “compassionate” payment of 50 per cent of the $80 million owed in severance.
Speaking on behalf of a group of 40 employees, former LIAT pilot Rafael Greene said the majority of the workers feel as if they are being taken advantage of and need to hear from the Mia Amor Mottley administration as well as the other shareholder governments on where they stand on this matter.
In a letter signed by chairman of the Cabinet Sub Committee on LIAT, Lennox Weston and addressed to the airlines administrator Cleveland Seaforth, it was proposed that payments would come in the form of cash, land and deferred bonds. The workers must agree through their bargaining agent whether they agree to the one-off payment and also indicate whether they intend to continue with their claim for severance.
Noting that workers were already suffering as a result of being denied their just dues for more than a year, Greene said the latest proposal from Browne was essentially rubbing salt in their wounds.
“Some of the already disenfranchised former employees are aggrieved by what could only be described as an insult of an offer, in circumstances where they have been forced to suffer without their money for a protracted period. It can’t be emphasised enough how the rhetoric and actions of the Antiguan government have to this point been aimed at kicking the staff while they’re down,” he said.
He also argued that payment in kind, such as land, was only likely to benefit citizens of Antigua and clarity was urgently needed as to how equity would be assured for those residing outside of that jurisdiction. Greene further argued that on this issue, the shareholder governments could not afford to stay silent any longer.
“We are anxiously awaiting word from our Government as well as the other shareholders on their position, as we are not comfortable with their silence. We need to know what their intentions are to bring an end to the suffering of their citizens. Additionally, we hope that Prime Minister Browne’s stance doesn’t adversely influence the thought processes or ultimate decisions to address this impasse in a manner which shows the former employees the respect and compassion they deserve. This, particularly in light of our ongoing suffering,” he stressed.
Source: Nation
@ David
Another interesting development.
‘More LIAT ex-pilots join’ class-action lawsuit
Article by: Emmanuel Joseph
Published on: March 19, 2021
Ten terminated LIAT pilots have strengthened numbers in their class-action suit against the Antigua and Barbuda government in the face of a reported threat by the prime minister to close the St John’s-based company.
Six more former pilots Thursday came forward to add their names to the constitutional motion filed last week in the High Court in St Johns by Barbadian flyer Captain Neil Cave. They insisted that they won’t be bullied into backing down despite Prime Minister Gaston Browne’s pledge to end all support for LIAT if “pilots and those who represent them” continue to frustrate his efforts to rescue the collapsed carrier.
Brown told Antigua’s Daily Observer that he could be forced to hasten the airline’s liquidation while distancing his government from any liability that might arise.
“If this pilot and those he represents continue to frustrate our Herculean efforts to salvage LIAT 1974 Ltd… it’s unfortunate; that despite our best efforts to salvage LIAT and our undertaking to honour up to 50 per cent of the severance liability on a compassionate basis; that this type of disruptive behaviour is being pursued to undermine our efforts,” Browne told the Antigua media outlet which also quoted Barbados TODAY’s story on the suit published yesterday.
But Captain Cave told Barbados TODAY that the dismissed pilots have a sound claim against the Browne administration and will be pressing forward with their case.
Captain Cave said: “Browne is simply looking for a scapegoat because of the situation in which he finds himself. He is trying to use this litigation for which we have a valid claim, as a scapegoat in talking about closing LIAT.
“I have had six calls from pilots this morning requesting to have their names joined to that class action suit because they believe in the merits of the suit.”
In a letter on the eve of Browne’s threat Tuesday, Chairman of the Cabinet’s Sub-Committee on LIAT Lennox Weston told the airline’s Administrator Cleveland Seaforth that the St John’s government was leading an initiative among fellow regional shareholders to seek and support coordination for workers for up to half of their calculated terminal benefits by way of a compassionate fund.
The letter read: “Options for payment could include cash, land and deferred bond payments. In order to further this initiative, we request that you arrange to canvass the former workers and representative unions to determine whether firstly: they would agree to accept 50 per cent of workers’ computed benefits as a final payout via the compassionate fund and secondly: if they wish to pursue other alternatives to advance their claim for compensation.”
Weston said it was essential the airline was reorganized.
“And unless this restructuring takes place and LIAT is returned to a “going concern” status, the only realistic source of compensation for former employees would be the residual amounts left, once the legal procedure of winding up the company takes place,” the Cabinet Sub-Committee head cautioned.
He reminded the Administrator that no shareholder government had any legal obligation to the company, beyond its limited liability obligation.
“In this regard, a cursory look at LIAT’s most recent statements would lead any observer to the unmistakable conclusion that there would be very little benefit, if any, to be derived by former employees,” Weston warned.
The constitutional motion against the government is challenging the constitutionality of the recently amended Companies Act which prohibits anyone from suing the Antigua and Barbuda government over any claims against LIAT.
The claimants, who have named the Attorney General as the only defendant, also want the court to order that they be awarded costs and/or other relief the court may deem just.
The ex-pilots are also requesting that the court declares that Section 564 (1) of the Companies (Amendment) Act No 17 of 2020, is in contravention of Section 15 (8) of the Constitution of Antigua and Barbuda by limiting the claimants’ constitutional right to access the court for a determination of their civil claim against LIAT 1974 Limited which was filed in 2015 and was pending at the time Parliament passed the law.
(emmanueljoseph@barbadostoday.bb)
@ David BU
Browne is threatening to close LIAT if the pilots do not withdraw their lawsuit.
@Artax
An exit strategy because of imminent failure?
@ David
LIAT was bound to fail.
To relaunch a struggling, cash strapped LIAT, especially during a pandemic that has adversely affected the travel industry, world-wide, was a ludicrous idea.
There will obviously be a limit to the financial assistance Antigua may offer the air line, and so far, there hasn’t been a rush by the governments of other Caribbean territories or the private sector to invest in it as well, perhaps contrary to what Browne anticipated.
To the blogmasters way of thinking the failure of NEW LIAT will be a black eye for Antigua which may have political fallout. The chickens have come home to roost.
I am unsure many people grasp the huge liabilities of running any public entity. LIAT is just a few grains of sand on a larger beach. When public entities are poorly managed and operated, those liabilities grow. LIAT is one estate, I would not wish to be an ‘executor’. Probate will be long, difficult and costly. The lawyers and consultants will likely get more than any beneficiary.
Nah….. there won’t be any political fallout. I believe Browne has convinced Antiguans that the other Caribbean territories, especially the former shareholders, want to deny Antigua the right to own LIAT.
Remember, in March 2015 after there were talks about relocating the airline to Barbados, Browne said, “We buy flour from St. Vincent, we buy juices from Barbados, vegetables from Dominica and all I am saying to them, leave us with LIAT. We have every right to defend what’s in the best interest of Antigua and Barbuda.”
Also, recall how he went about demanding a university established in Antigua, with or without the support of UWI’s hierarchy. In the minds of many Antiguans, Browne is essentially standing up for their rights.
What may be missed here, is that if there is not an amicable settlement with the former employees, the new airline is finished before it begins.
Who is going to work for an employer where agreements are not worth the paper they are written on?
Time to accept that a private airline will take its place.
@Crusoe
The loyal Antigua pilots and others in the locale.
@Artax
Browne was also proactive in the Scotiabank sale. So he has a track record of “standing up for A&B’ians”. However, ‘ring fencing’ politics is difficult, and that doesn’t mean there will not be fall out elsewhere? As discussed earlier in this thread….it appeared the result might be each country covering severance for its citizen employees.
I would also imagine their is a “pension” issue to be dealt with?
@ NorthernObserver
I hope you’re aware LIAT had offices in all the territories it serviced.
So, bearing in mind, for example, St. Lucia was not a shareholder, are you suggesting the St. Lucian government should pay the former LIAT employees who worked at George F. L. Charles Airport?
If not, then who should pay them?
@Artax
Yes. I think Browne’s intent is to download payment. He doesn’t really care who pays, once it isn’t him. In the worst case scenario non-shareholder citizens is a mix of shareholders+citizen gov’t.
Amm speaking of who supposed to get what and who should be paid by whom
Barbados Today ran a story stating that dozens of employees of the COvid 19 unit has not been paid since december
However David interest rest in Antigua problems when here at home many similar circumstances are happening to workers
Keep burying wunna head in the sand
Dozens of employees of the COVID-19 Unit, which polices the pandemic protocols, are yet to see a single cent in pay since taking up their duties last year December.
Here is a story that should be of concern
These hard workers put their lives on the front line and govt does not do the decent thing making sure that they get their full dues
Shame shame shame
However barbados have a PM doing her PR stints as usual
Making herself look good while workers catch hell
@ac
did you READ the article? Col Bostic admitted some 40 persons had not been paid, they should have been, and he had instructed the PS in the Ministry to rectify the problem.
Nobody seems to be running away from the issue, and thus far, the Minister is taking full responsibility for its rectification.
Isn’t this discussion about Barbadian former LIAT employees who are awaiting severance payments for over a year?
Anyhow, it’s good to know you’ve finally showing an interest in these types of developments, especially when one remembers how you stood in solidarity with the former DLP administration and criticised people for voicing their opinions relative to the retrenched Beautify Barbados employees, who had to wait for over three (3) years for their severance payments.
@ NorthernObserver
“In an exclusive interview on Thursday, Minister of Health and Wellness Lieutenant Colonel Jeffrey Bostic confirmed that the officers were not being paid as they braved the frontlines of this country’s pandemic situation. Declaring there was “no excuse” for the blunder, he explained the issue is currently being rectified and vowed to do “everything possible” to ensure it is not repeated.”
You ‘done know’ Angela Cox would conveniently ignore that information and post what she believes reflects negatively on ‘government.’
It should not have happen
These brave soldiers deserved better
How come Minister Bostic in charge did not step in to resolve the matter earlier
Bostic now coming out to cover his a.ss at this late minute speaks about the insensitivity towards these workers personnel problems by a govt who in the last year found it necessary to do damage control when sh.it hit the fan
Bostic words today doesn’t add up to a hill of beans for these workers who stated that getting their personnel livelihood in order in the past four months was a struggle
Shame and double shame on Minster Bostic and Mia for letting these workers suffer while doing their uttermost best to save lives
Sadly, we are very familiar with @ac’s take. I expect her to be on full attack mode soon re DI. Did you see in a recent DOJ summary of 2020 cases, he was referred to as “a foreign official living in Tampa, Florida”. I wonder how they could describe him as such? Maybe that is what his tax returns stated?
angela cox March 19, 2021 6:21 PM
Rubbish.
The blogmaster invites you to join the discussion.